theintercept--2020-06-11--Is It Time to Defund the Police?

Is It Time to Defund the Police?

of global protests over the killing of George Floyd by a Minneapolis police officer , a movement to redirect public resources away from traditional policing and toward community-oriented systems of public safety has taken hold around the country .
What are advocates of “ defunding the police ” really arguing for , and could it work ?
Black Lives Matter co-founder Patrisse Cullors joins Mehdi Hasan to discuss the future of policing in the United States .
Patrisse Cullors : Much of what the police do now are things that social workers can do , things that case managers can @ @ @ @ @ @ @ can do .
And that ’ s why our movement is calling to defund them .
When you see , week after week , police officers beating unarmed protesters , reporters , passers-by — an elderly man with cancer , in broad daylight , on camera — you have to ask : What is the solution ?
Surely reforming the police isn ’ t enough ?
PC : Defunding the police means we ’ re actually resourcing communities with access to healthcare , access to adequate public education , and access to jobs @ @ @ @ @ @ @ guest today Patrisse Cullors , co-founder of Black Lives Matter and Reform LA Jails .
So , is it time to defund the police ?
And how would that even work ?
Last Saturday I watched a video of one of the most remarkable scenes involving an elected politician and their constituents that I ’ ve witnessed in my adult lifetime .
Jacob Frey , mayor of Minneapolis — the city where it all kicked off , where George Floyd was so brutally killed by the police — Jacob Frey , a young @ @ @ @ @ @ @ rights lawyer , turned up to to join a protest against police brutality and show solidarity with his black constituents .
But it didn ’ t go so well for him when he was asked in front of the entire crowd , by the organizers , whether he was willing to go beyond the usual platitudes about police ‘ reform.
’ Kandace Montgomery : Jacob Frey , we have a yes-or-no question for you .
Yes or no : Will you commit to defunding the Minneapolis Police Department ?
KM : What did @ @ @ @ @ @ @ don ’ t want no more police .
Is that clear ?
We don ’ t want people with guns toting around in our community , shooting us down .
You have the answer ?
It is the yes or a no .
It is a yes or a no .
Will you defund the Minneapolis Police Department ?
KM : Alright , be quiet y ’ all .
Be quiet , because it ’ s — it ’ s important that we actually hear this .
It ’ s important that we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ don ’ t know , he ’ s up for re-election next year .
KM : And if he says no , guess what the fuck we gon na do next year ?
[ Crowd cheers , and folks say , “ Louder !
” to Jacob Frey . ]
JF : I do not support the full abolition of the police .
KM : Alright , you ’ re wasting our time .
Get the fuck out of here .
Get the fuck out of here .
[ chanting ] Go home @ @ @ @ @ @ @ go home !
Go home Jacob go home !
Now you might say , “ Well , what does that achieve ?
Yeah , they booed and humiliated the mayor , a white Democrat , but they can ’ t actually get politicians to do what they want .
These protestors are all talk — they ’ re all protest.
” Erm , not quite .
At least , not this time !
The very next day , on Sunday , nine members of the Minneapolis City Council — a veto-proof majority , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the police department , saying it was beyond reform .
Newscaster : Some breaking news coming in tonight , the Minneapolis City Council has announced their intent to disband the police department .
Speaker : Our commitment is to end our city ’ s toxic relationship with the Minneapolis Police Department .
To end policing as we know it .
Reporter : Minneapolis City Council members admit they don ’ t have the answers about what a police-free future looks like .
They have said they want to defund police , and invest @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , and rely more on social workers , and calling 311 versus 911 .
MH : It ’ s a big move .
It ’ s massive .
The Minneapolis City Councillors , though , offered no details on how they ’ re going to defund , dismantle , disband and , presumably , replace the police in their city .
And so one of the things I want to explore with my guest today is what it means to dismantle a police department practically , what it means to call for the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we ’ re now hearing more and more , and not just from Black Lives Matter protesters in the streets but even on the op-ed pages of the New York Times .
Less than two weeks ago , this was the headline in the Times opinion section : “ No More Money for the Police , ” with the subhead : “ Redirect it to emergency response programs that don ’ t kill black people.
” The amount of money that is spent on policing in this country is stunning .
Just astonishing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s tripled over the past 40 years , even as crime has fallen .
The New York Police Department , the NYPD , whose finest we ’ ve seen beating innocent unarmed New Yorkers on the streets in recent weeks — on camera , on tape — has the biggest police budget in the country , $ 6 billion , which is more than the city ’ s Departments of Health , Homeless Services , Youth Services , and Employment Services combined — combined !
It ’ s bigger than the World @ @ @ @ @ @ @ than the GDP of 50 countries around the world .
Defunding that budget shouldn ’ t be a priority for those of us who give a damn about social justice , racial equality , human rights ?
Really ?
And defunding doesn ’ t mean you just shut everything down and cut them all off .
Abolish the police doesn ’ t mean you just get rid of it and leave behind no replacement .
Camden , New Jersey , used to be one of the most violent cities in the U.S..
In @ @ @ @ @ @ @ police department and replaced it with a new community-oriented model and lots of new personnel .
Listen to the former Camden County Police Chief Scott Thompson , speaking on MSNBC : Scott Thompson : In 2012 , every member of the Camden City Police Department , including myself , was fired .
I was a police officer 20 years , been a police chief for five .
Myself and everyone else had to — had to fill out a 50-page application , interview , the whole nine yards .
We were all new @ @ @ @ @ @ @ created a new police force .
We created a police force where the philosophy was going to be the empowerment of the community before enforcement of the law .
We would bring on every member of the organization , and we wanted them to identify more as a member of the Peace Corps than being a special forces operator , and that we would reclaim these city streets , in a manner in which we were empowering the people , so that they would be able to reclaim it , as opposed to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the community even further .
MH : And guess what happened ?
Murders fell by more than 70 percent , violent crimes by more than 40 percent .
It ’ s not just former police chiefs like Scott Thompson making the case , by the way .
On Monday , San Francisco Police Chief Bill Scott said he was “ open ” to the idea of defunding the police .
The police chief himself !
Still , let ’ s be honest , it ’ s going to be an uphill battle to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , let alone , abolishing the police — if such a thing is even possible , nationwide .
Polls suggest that big majorities of Americans support protests against police brutality and believe police forces need to change .
But only a minority of Americans want to cut police budgets .
Then you ’ ve got the white nationalist in the White House , who is of course on record encouraging police to be violent : President Donald J. Trump : When you see these thugs being thrown into the back of a paddy @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in , rough .
I said , “ Please don ’ t be too nice.
” [ Audience laughter . ]
“ Like when you guys put somebody in the car , and you ’ re protecting their head , you know , the way you put their hand over — like , don ’ t hit their head , and they ’ ve just killed somebody , don ’ t hit their head.
” I said , “ You can take the hand away , OK ?
” [ Audience laughs , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : This week , Trump was quick to jump to the defense of the police , and against the crazy , left-wing , radical idea of defunding .
DJT : There won ’ t be defunding , there won ’ t be dismantling of our police .
And , uh , there won ’ t be any disbanding of our police .
Our police have been letting us live in peace , and we want to make sure we don ’ t have any bad actors in there , and sometimes you ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we witnessed recently , but 99 — I say 99.9 , but let ’ s go with 99 percent of them — are great , great people .
MH : Then there ’ s the Democratic presidential candidate , Joe Biden , speaking to Norah O ’ Donnell on CBS News this week : Norah O ’ Donnell : Do you support defunding the police ?
MH : To be fair to Biden , though he was also very explicit in that interview on the issue of systemic police racism : NO : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in law enforcement ?
JB : Absolutely .
But it ’ s not just law enforcement — it ’ s across the board .
It ’ s in housing , and it ’ s in education , and it ’ s in everything we do .
It ’ s real , it ’ s genuine , it ’ s serious .
MH : And , look , despite his awful record on criminal justice issues , he now has a criminal justice reform agenda that is far , far superior to anything on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that contains many good ideas and decent policy proposals for restraining the police and holding them accountable .
So , it ’ s a start .
But it doesn ’ t go far enough .
Like so many liberals , Biden still seems unwilling — unable even — to take the kind of radical steps that this radical , historic moment demands .
He needs to be pushed even more .
And you know , some of this stuff shouldn ’ t even be considered that radical .
What Americans often call radical @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the world .
For example , universal healthcare : it ’ s not a radical idea outside of the United States .
I ’ d say the same thing about policing .
I ’ m from the UK , a country with a very similar political culture to the U.S. , many similarities between the two countries ; the UK that ’ s been governed by conservatives for the majority of the past 100 years , and yet the police in the UK tend to be unarmed .
Almost all the UK police @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 2018 , U.S. police shot dead more than a 1000 people ; UK police shot dead 3 people .
It ’ s not just the UK ; Ireland , Iceland , Norway , New Zealand , all have unarmed police forces .
Now , I ’ m not saying that U.S. police officers should all give up their weapons overnight — especially in a country as heavily-armed , as full of guns , as this one .
But my point is that we need to understand that it is possible to do policing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ examples of better practice .
Hell , as I mentioned earlier , there are local examples of better practice — for example , Camden , New Jersey .
But there is this ongoing failure of imagination among liberals , and on parts of the Left , too , encouraged by cynical conservatives who say big change — radical change , so-called — is unrealistic , is impossible .
The irony is that events are proving them wrong — events are moving so fast .
Just 12 weeks ago , the architect of New @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was polling second nationwide in the race for the Democratic presidential nomination .
Can you imagine that today ?
Michael Bloomberg as a potential Democratic front runner ?
Ha !
Things change , so don ’ t let people tell you that justice can ’ t be done , that change can ’ t come , that the status quo must persist .
Things can change , will change , have to change .
They are changing .
The question is : How far can change go , and what can you and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ pushing , we keep fighting , for a new vision , a new way of policing , a new system of justice ?
I ’ m reminded of that old quote , often misattributed to Gandhi , but which seems very appropriate for the political moment we ’ re in right now : “ First they ignore you , then they laugh at you , then they fight you , then you win.
” MH : My guest today is a fighter ; a long-standing campaigner for social justice and human rights , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Patrisse Cullors is also the Founder of Reform LA Jails and author of the acclaimed book , “ When They Call You a Terrorist : A Black Lives Matter Memoir.
” She joins me now from LA .
MH : Patrisse , thanks for joining me on Deconstructed .
Let ’ s get straight to it : What does “ defund the police ” mean , in practice , in the real world ?
PC : Defunding the police means that we ’ re actually resourcing communities , like black , poor @ @ @ @ @ @ @ access to adequate public education , and access to jobs .
Much of what the police do right now are things that social workers can do , things that case managers can do , things that other governmental workers can do .
And that ’ s why our movement is calling to defund them .
MH : Is there a difference , Patrisse , between defunding the police and abolishing the police — because we ’ ve heard both slogans in recent weeks , and sometimes they sound interchangeable , but sometimes they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Some people believe in the defund demand because it means that we ’ ll keep police at some capacity .
And some people believe that the defund demand is our pathway towards abolition .
So they are two different demands , depending on your philosophies .
I ’ m an abolitionist , so I believe that the first step to abolition is defunding both the police system , but also the carceral system , which is the system that has created mass incarceration .
MH : So , a lot of liberals @ @ @ @ @ @ @ We ’ re totally onboard with the idea that the police are out of control , that institutional racism is a problem , but defunding the police , abolishing the police , those are steps too far , we want reform.
” What do you say to them ?
What ’ s wrong with police reform ?
PC : Well , what I say to people is , and when we say defunding the police , we ’ re not saying stop having people be accountable to issues of harm and violence .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ of accountability .
This is a conversation about building in a new system of accountability , one that is based on an economy of care over an economy of punishment .
Right now , we have a system that is punitive , that is based on punishing human beings .
And that is cruel and evil .
The system that we ’ re asking for is a compassionate and loving system , and that is able to still hold people accountable for harm that they cause .
That is totally in alignment with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ also with people who believe in abolition .
MH : But reform , you believe the police — we have to go beyond reform , reform ’ s not enough reform , doesn ’ t work ?
What ’ s your position on ‘ reform ’ ?
PC : I think it depends on the kind of reform .
When I talk about reform , I ’ m thinking about non-reformist reform , which is — my work is about decreasing the police ’ s ability to be in contact with black people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ m making , or the organizations that I work with are making , is always about how do we lessen the burden of police on black communities ?
So a reform can be reform like body cameras .
Does that change the structural violence and racism inside of police departments ?
No , actually , it has not changed it at all .
Instead , body cameras are just showing us more and more the dysfunctionality of policing .
And so , the other reform that we ’ re calling for — @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , but it ’ s the reform that isn ’ t giving the police state more money .
MH : The immediate response from a lot of people in recent days , including people of color , to this idea of defunding or abolishing the police is : What happens if I ’ m in trouble ?
What happens if I am facing a violent or dangerous person ?
Who do I call ?
PC : Hopefully , we can build new institutions that people can have a new place to call .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ hopefully , someone ’ s in a mental health crisis , you can call 911 .
And instead of them sending a police officer who may kill the person who ’ s in that mental health crisis , you call someone like a caseworker or a psychiatrist who ’ s been trained to de-escalate an issue .
The problem is , oftentimes when police do show up , more violence happens .
It doesn ’ t make it less violent when the police are involved .
And that ’ s very important for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ totally get that and your example of the mental health situation is a very good one .
But then of course , there are always the extreme examples that are used to make the other side of the argument .
So if you ’ re in an armed robbery , you ’ re an owner of a gas station and people are — men with guns or trying to rob you .
You want armed police to turn up and protect you , don ’ t you ?
PC : Depends .
Once @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of examples where people have been armed , and there ’ s been — on video — where other people have de-escalated them .
An eye for an eye is not actually a true response if we ’ re trying to get harm reduction .
What we ’ ve seen across neighborhoods in places where there ’ s a significant amount of harm and violence is when you have policing as the only answer , it creates more harm and violence .
And so the answer is really in institutions that are based @ @ @ @ @ @ @ working with the community to try to deal with the violence instead of use the police to cause more violence .
I think the other thing is , we have a myth about what the police do .
So I think it ’ s important for listeners to understand none of us understand what a beat cop does , because what we watch on TV is that they solve murders and rapes ; violent crime is only one to five percent .
So what a beat cop does is mostly about dealing with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ beat cop does , and I think it ’ s really , really important that we start to investigate how we understand policing , and the propaganda that we ’ ve been , you know , shoved down our throats around policing .
MH : So you ’ re making the case for doing this very eloquently in terms of describing the status quo being broken .
In Minneapolis , they ’ ve said that they want to disband the police department , come up with something better , reimagine it , but @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it is that they ’ re going to do — they ’ ve admitted it can ’ t be done overnight .
It ’ s going to take a year .
Now , many people would say the devil is in the details .
Saying “ defund the police ” or “ abolish the police , ” that ’ s easy .
Doing it , executing that vision is much harder .
Would you concede that ?
PC : Yes , it is .
It ’ s much harder because every single institution @ @ @ @ @ @ @ law enforcement : our schools — our public schools , our public hospitals , our public parks , every single institution relies on law enforcement .
And so it means that we have to reimagine entirely new systems .
The good news is , is there are many people across this country and the world who have been thinking about this for a very long time ; they have ideas about what those new systems can be ?
They ’ ve tried it in small — they ’ ve beta tested it in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ So it ’ s not like people have to learn from scratch .
It ’ s just not popular .
This is the first time in modern history where abolitionism and this concept of defunding the police is a popular moment .
I often think about what it must have felt like when black folks were abolishing slavery and they finally got the word that they were moving towards abolition .
I mean , that ’ s the moment that we ’ re in .
And it ’ s very powerful .
MH @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to slave owners , though — anyway , many people would say that , that ’ s a comparison that ’ s not fair .
PC : No , I ’ m comparing the police to patrols , slave patrols , which is what they were originally , they were created so they could go catch enslaved Africans who were fleeing for freedom .
That ’ s the role of the police ; that ’ s the role that they ’ ve always played .
So they weren ’ t the slave owners @ @ @ @ @ @ @ them .
MH : That ’ s a very good point .
You ’ re in LA , where Democratic mayor Eric Garcetti has agreed to cut the LAPD budget by $ 100 million , I think , and divert some of that money towards communities of color .
Do steps like that , incremental steps , modest steps , do they count , in your view , towards “ defunding the police ” ?
Or is it all or nothing in your view ?
It has to look like Minneapolis , or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : No , it ’ s an important step , but it is a far , far cry from what we ’ ve asked for .
LAPD ’ s budget is $ 3 billion ; $ 150 million is nothing .
So we need to continue to cut at that budget .
And I think it ’ s incredibly important that we remember that $ 150 million doesn ’ t mean that the budget isn ’ t still more than half of the city budget .
MH : So you talked about your @ @ @ @ @ @ @ re a co-founder of Black Lives Matter .
There ’ s been a remarkable change in public attitudes driven by Black Lives Matter protesters and others over the years .
I was just looking at the polling after Ferguson in 2014 .
The proportion of Republicans who said the killing of unarmed African-American men by the police was a reflection of broader problems with the police — that ’ s doubled from 19 percent in 2014 to 47 percent , almost half of Republicans today .
Across all Americans , it ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are broader problems with the police ’ s treatment of black men .
Do those numbers surprise you ?
Shock you ?
I mean , I ’ m sure they make you happy , but how surprised are you at the change we ’ re seeing ?
Is it quick enough for you ?
PC : I ’ m pretty surprised , actually .
Grateful .
But yes , surprised .
I feel like we remember being called terrorist , and remember people believing it across the country and across the globe .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ profound , and it means that whatever we have been doing , it ’ s working .
MH : I mean , we even saw in recent days Republican Senator and former Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney , joining the protests in DC saying , “ Black Lives Matter , ” saying those three dirty words ( for the Right ) .
Is that an indication of a political shift on the Right or is , as usual , Mitt Romney an outlier ?
PC : I think it ’ s both .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ to challenge our current president .
I think we ’ re in a political moment where people want to align around getting Trump out of office .
And in a strange twist of events , Black Lives Matter happens to be the ultimate equalizer .
[ Laughs . ]
And I ’ d never would have thought we ’ d be here .
MH : So you have Mitt Romney marching for Black Lives Matter , you have polling showing Americans are changing attitudes .
There ’ s not a majority on board @ @ @ @ @ @ @ there is a majority on board saying the police , something has to be done about the police , which itself is remarkable .
Then you have Joe Biden , the Democratic presidential candidate , saying this week , very clearly , that on the one hand , he does not support defunding the police , he wants to increase funding ; on the other hand , he does accept there is systemic racism in the police and that has to be tackled , which I would argue is a big thing for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s the architect of the 1994 crime bill .
PC : Mhmm .
Yeah , I mean , I think that so much of what we ’ re trying to do in this moment is get Trump out of office and hold Biden accountable to the needs of our movement .
We knew that it was going to be hard for the Democratic Party to get on board for defund the police , but it still feels incredibly important to push and challenge them , given that they have , you know , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ black vote and have been complicit in our death and , you know , our brutalization .
So the hope is that we can push this candidate and also the entire party .
MH : And the Biden campaign say they want to increase funding to community policing initiatives , they say they want to pay for body cameras for more cops on the beat .
Do they have a point ?
Is that fair ?
PC : I think that ’ s an old demand , the idea of body cameras and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are unhelpful .
And you know , the — the — like I said , the hope is that we could push him and his campaign to really look at the concept of defending and what we ’ re actually talking about .
MH : But you would accept , I assume , based on what you ’ re saying about the need to get Trump out .
You agree that despite Biden ’ s horrific criminal justice record , what he ’ s offering in this election is far superior in terms @ @ @ @ @ @ @ than a second-term Trump presidency where basically they want to use law enforcement to go after Antifa and black protesters , and give white nationalists a pass .
MH : It ’ s not just Biden , though , is it , Patrisse ?
It ’ s not just white politicians .
On Wednesday , on MSNBC , Congressman Jim Clyburn , highest-ranking black member of Congress , was saying people who talk about defunding the police are sloganeering , they ’ re hijacking the protest .
He said , “ We want @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ” It ’ s not just an ideological divide on the left or in the Democratic Party .
There seems to be a pretty big generational divide among black Americans , doesn ’ t there ?
And we saw that in the presidential primaries , too .
PC : Yeah , I think that so much of what millennials and Gen Z-ers have experienced is heinous and terrible violence at the hands of law enforcement .
And we have caught called on black electeds in particular to , you know , challenge policing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ younger generation of black lives who want to see a new system .
At the end of the day , what we ’ re asking for are more jobs , more access to health care , adequate public education , mental health care , adequate access to healthy food .
And we have to realize that budgets are finite .
We can ’ t have hundreds of thousands — I mean — millions and billions of dollars towards policing , and also millions and billions of dollars towards health care .
Something has @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ve seen as we ’ ve — we ’ ve — we ’ ve stripped away the entire social welfare state , both at the local level , the state level , and the national level .
And it ’ s time for , you know , both parties to come to grips and to provide the kind of healthy living that people in this country deserve .
MH : For you , Patrisse , I know this is very personal .
One of the reasons you say you co-founded Black Lives Matter @ @ @ @ @ @ @ received at the hands of the police , and then in prison .
Did you — did your brother — ever think you ’ d see a moment like this one a national uprising ?
Are you — is he — optimistic about the future , I wonder ?
PC : We both are , you know , every , every moment of victory that we have had , whether it was the Yes on R victory — where we were able to pass the law , you know , that changed here @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the jails , to getting civilian oversight of the sheriff ’ s department — to this moment where we ’ re finally talking about defunding and abolition , both him and I are always like : Wow , this is powerful .
This is amazing .
And — and — and it makes us really hopeful .
MH : And to someone who ’ s listening , who says : What can I do to take part in this struggle to help push back against institutional racism which seems so vast , it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ much part of America ’ s DNA in so many ways ?
What advice would you give to a listener who wants to know what they can do ?
PC : Number one : Start looking up this conversation .
Read about defunding and abolition .
Mariame Kaba is someone who talks about it a lot ; Angela Davis has talked about it a lot .
Alex Vitale , Kelly Lytle Hernández — those are four amazing thought leaders around this concept of defunding and abolition .
And number two : Support your @ @ @ @ @ @ @ especially black-led organizations .
It ’ s been powerful to see so many people lifting up black leadership and black orgs .
And number three : Check your privilege .
No matter what it is , check your ideas and your privilege and try to have — imagine just for a moment , what communities actually need versus the propaganda that we ’ ve been fed about what the police do for us .
MH : Patrisse Cullors , thank you so much for joining us on Deconstructed .
Keep fighting the good @ @ @ @ @ @ @ our show !
Deconstructed is a production of First Look Media and The Intercept .
Our producer is Zach Young .
The show was mixed by Bryan Pugh .
Our theme music was composed by Bart Warshaw .
Betsy Reed is The Intercept ’ s editor in chief .
And I ’ m Mehdi Hasan .
You can follow me on Twitter @ mehdirhasan .
If you haven ’ t already , please subscribe to the show so you can hear it every week .
Go to theintercept.com/deconstructed to subscribe from your podcast @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , whatever .
If you ’ re subscribed already , please do leave us a rating or review — it helps people find the show .
And if you want to give us feedback , email us at [ email protected ] Thanks so much !
See you next week .

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In the wake of global protests over the killing of George Floyd by a Minneapolis police officer, a movement to redirect public resources away from traditional policing and toward community-oriented systems of public safety has taken hold around the country. What are advocates of “defunding the police” really arguing for, and could it work? Black Lives Matter co-founder Patrisse Cullors joins Mehdi Hasan to discuss the future of policing in the United States.
Patrisse Cullors: Much of what the police do now are things that social workers can do, things that case managers can do, things that other governmental workers can do. And that’s why our movement is calling to defund them.
[Musical interlude.]
Mehdi Hasan: Welcome to Deconstructed. I’m Mehdi Hasan.
When you see, week after week, police officers beating unarmed protesters, reporters, passers-by — an elderly man with cancer, in broad daylight, on camera — you have to ask: What is the solution? Surely reforming the police isn’t enough?
PC: Defunding the police means we’re actually resourcing communities with access to healthcare, access to adequate public education, and access to jobs.
MH: That’s my guest today Patrisse Cullors, co-founder of Black Lives Matter and Reform LA Jails.
So, is it time to defund the police? And how would that even work?
Last Saturday I watched a video of one of the most remarkable scenes involving an elected politician and their constituents that I’ve witnessed in my adult lifetime.
Jacob Frey, mayor of Minneapolis — the city where it all kicked off, where George Floyd was so brutally killed by the police — Jacob Frey, a young, liberal Democrat, a former civil rights lawyer, turned up to to join a protest against police brutality and show solidarity with his black constituents. But it didn’t go so well for him when he was asked in front of the entire crowd, by the organizers, whether he was willing to go beyond the usual platitudes about police ‘reform.’
Kandace Montgomery: Jacob Frey, we have a yes-or-no question for you. Yes or no: Will you commit to defunding the Minneapolis Police Department?
Mayor Jacob Frey: Abolition of it?
KM: What did I say?
[Crowd starts reacting to Jacob.]
Kandace Montgomery: We don’t want no more police. Is that clear? We don’t want people with guns toting around in our community, shooting us down. You have the answer? It is the yes or a no. It is a yes or a no. Will you defund the Minneapolis Police Department?
[Crowd shushes.]
KM: Alright, be quiet y’all. Be quiet, because it’s — it’s important that we actually hear this. It’s important that we hear this because if y’all don’t know, he’s up for re-election next year.
[Crowd cheers and boos.]
KM: And if he says no, guess what the fuck we gonna do next year?
[Crowd cheers, and folks say, “Louder!” to Jacob Frey.]
JF: I do not support the full abolition of the police.
[Crowd boos and shouts.]
KM: Alright, you’re wasting our time. Get the fuck out of here. Get the fuck out of here. [chanting] Go home Jacob go home! Go home Jacob go home! Go home Jacob go home!
MH: Talk about a walk of shame.
Now you might say, “Well, what does that achieve? Yeah, they booed and humiliated the mayor, a white Democrat, but they can’t actually get politicians to do what they want. These protestors are all talk — they’re all protest.”
Erm, not quite. At least, not this time! The very next day, on Sunday, nine members of the Minneapolis City Council — a veto-proof majority, by the way — pledged to dismantle the police department, saying it was beyond reform.
Newscaster: Some breaking news coming in tonight, the Minneapolis City Council has announced their intent to disband the police department.
Reporter: That’s right Tom.
Speaker: Our commitment is to end our city’s toxic relationship with the Minneapolis Police Department. To end policing as we know it.
Reporter: Minneapolis City Council members admit they don’t have the answers about what a police-free future looks like. They have said they want to defund police, and invest in things like juvenile crime prevention programs, and rely more on social workers, and calling 311 versus 911.
MH: It’s a big move. It’s massive. The Minneapolis City Councillors, though, offered no details on how they’re going to defund, dismantle, disband and, presumably, replace the police in their city. And so one of the things I want to explore with my guest today is what it means to dismantle a police department practically, what it means to call for the defunding of the police — a call we’re now hearing more and more, and not just from Black Lives Matter protesters in the streets but even on the op-ed pages of the New York Times. Less than two weeks ago, this was the headline in the Times opinion section: “No More Money for the Police,” with the subhead: “Redirect it to emergency response programs that don’t kill black people.”
Hear, hear!
The amount of money that is spent on policing in this country is stunning. Just astonishing. $115 billion nationwide; it’s tripled over the past 40 years, even as crime has fallen. The New York Police Department, the NYPD, whose finest we’ve seen beating innocent unarmed New Yorkers on the streets in recent weeks — on camera, on tape — has the biggest police budget in the country, $6 billion, which is more than the city’s Departments of Health, Homeless Services, Youth Services, and Employment Services combined — combined! It’s bigger than the World Health Organization’s budget. Bigger than the GDP of 50 countries around the world. Defunding that budget shouldn’t be a priority for those of us who give a damn about social justice, racial equality, human rights? Really?
And defunding doesn’t mean you just shut everything down and cut them all off. Abolish the police doesn’t mean you just get rid of it and leave behind no replacement.
Camden, New Jersey, used to be one of the most violent cities in the U.S.. In 2012, the city dissolved its corrupt police department and replaced it with a new community-oriented model and lots of new personnel. Listen to the former Camden County Police Chief Scott Thompson, speaking on MSNBC:
Scott Thompson: In 2012, every member of the Camden City Police Department, including myself, was fired. I was a police officer 20 years, been a police chief for five. Myself and everyone else had to — had to fill out a 50-page application, interview, the whole nine yards.
We were all new employees. We started over. We created a new police force. We created a police force where the philosophy was going to be the empowerment of the community before enforcement of the law. We would bring on every member of the organization, and we wanted them to identify more as a member of the Peace Corps than being a special forces operator, and that we would reclaim these city streets, in a manner in which we were empowering the people, so that they would be able to reclaim it, as opposed to us militarizing the neighborhoods and thereby polarizing the community even further.
MH: And guess what happened? Murders fell by more than 70 percent, violent crimes by more than 40 percent.
It’s not just former police chiefs like Scott Thompson making the case, by the way. On Monday, San Francisco Police Chief Bill Scott said he was “open” to the idea of defunding the police. The police chief himself!
Still, let’s be honest, it’s going to be an uphill battle to get people behind the idea of defunding, let alone, abolishing the police — if such a thing is even possible, nationwide. Polls suggest that big majorities of Americans support protests against police brutality and believe police forces need to change. But only a minority of Americans want to cut police budgets.
Then you’ve got the white nationalist in the White House, who is of course on record encouraging police to be violent:
President Donald J. Trump: When you see these thugs being thrown into the back of a paddy wagon, you just see them thrown in, rough. I said, “Please don’t be too nice.” [Audience laughter.] “Like when you guys put somebody in the car, and you’re protecting their head, you know, the way you put their hand over — like, don’t hit their head, and they’ve just killed somebody, don’t hit their head.” I said, “You can take the hand away, OK?” [Audience laughs, cheers, and applauds.]
MH: This week, Trump was quick to jump to the defense of the police, and against the crazy, left-wing, radical idea of defunding.
DJT: There won’t be defunding, there won’t be dismantling of our police. And, uh, there won’t be any disbanding of our police. Our police have been letting us live in peace, and we want to make sure we don’t have any bad actors in there, and sometimes you’ll see some horrible things, like we witnessed recently, but 99 — I say 99.9, but let’s go with 99 percent of them — are great, great people.
MH: Then there’s the Democratic presidential candidate, Joe Biden, speaking to Norah O’Donnell on CBS News this week:
Norah O’Donnell: Do you support defunding the police?
Joe Biden: No, I don’t support defunding the police.
MH: To be fair to Biden, though he was also very explicit in that interview on the issue of systemic police racism:
NO: Do you believe there is systemic racism in law enforcement?
JB: Absolutely. But it’s not just law enforcement — it’s across the board. It’s in housing, and it’s in education, and it’s in everything we do. It’s real, it’s genuine, it’s serious.
MH: And, look, despite his awful record on criminal justice issues, he now has a criminal justice reform agenda that is far, far superior to anything on offer from Trump and the Republicans, that contains many good ideas and decent policy proposals for restraining the police and holding them accountable.
So, it’s a start. But it doesn’t go far enough. Like so many liberals, Biden still seems unwilling — unable even — to take the kind of radical steps that this radical, historic moment demands. He needs to be pushed even more.
And you know, some of this stuff shouldn’t even be considered that radical. What Americans often call radical is just normal to the rest of the world. For example, universal healthcare: it’s not a radical idea outside of the United States.
I’d say the same thing about policing. I’m from the UK, a country with a very similar political culture to the U.S., many similarities between the two countries; the UK that’s been governed by conservatives for the majority of the past 100 years, and yet the police in the UK tend to be unarmed. Almost all the UK police don’t carry weapons.
In 2018, U.S. police shot dead more than a 1000 people; UK police shot dead 3 people. It’s not just the UK; Ireland, Iceland, Norway, New Zealand, all have unarmed police forces.
Now, I’m not saying that U.S. police officers should all give up their weapons overnight — especially in a country as heavily-armed, as full of guns, as this one. But my point is that we need to understand that it is possible to do policing a different way. There are international examples of better practice. Hell, as I mentioned earlier, there are local examples of better practice — for example, Camden, New Jersey.
But there is this ongoing failure of imagination among liberals, and on parts of the Left, too, encouraged by cynical conservatives who say big change — radical change, so-called — is unrealistic, is impossible.
The irony is that events are proving them wrong — events are moving so fast. Just 12 weeks ago, the architect of New York’s racist stop-and-frisk policing policy was polling second nationwide in the race for the Democratic presidential nomination. Can you imagine that today? Michael Bloomberg as a potential Democratic front runner? Ha!
Things change, so don’t let people tell you that justice can’t be done, that change can’t come, that the status quo must persist.
Things can change, will change, have to change. They are changing. The question is: How far can change go, and what can you and I do to make sure we keep pushing, we keep fighting, for a new vision, a new way of policing, a new system of justice?
I’m reminded of that old quote, often misattributed to Gandhi, but which seems very appropriate for the political moment we’re in right now: “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”
[Musical interlude.]
MH: My guest today is a fighter; a long-standing campaigner for social justice and human rights, and the co-founder of Black Lives Matter. Patrisse Cullors is also the Founder of Reform LA Jails and author of the acclaimed book, “When They Call You a Terrorist: A Black Lives Matter Memoir.”
She joins me now from LA.
MH: Patrisse, thanks for joining me on Deconstructed. Let’s get straight to it: What does “defund the police” mean, in practice, in the real world?
PC: Defunding the police means that we’re actually resourcing communities, like black, poor communities with access to health care, access to adequate public education, and access to jobs. Much of what the police do right now are things that social workers can do, things that case managers can do, things that other governmental workers can do. And that’s why our movement is calling to defund them.
MH: Is there a difference, Patrisse, between defunding the police and abolishing the police — because we’ve heard both slogans in recent weeks, and sometimes they sound interchangeable, but sometimes they don’t?
PC: Sure. Some people believe in the defund demand because it means that we’ll keep police at some capacity. And some people believe that the defund demand is our pathway towards abolition.
So they are two different demands, depending on your philosophies. I’m an abolitionist, so I believe that the first step to abolition is defunding both the police system, but also the carceral system, which is the system that has created mass incarceration.
MH: So, a lot of liberals listening to this will say: “We’re totally onboard with the idea that the police are out of control, that institutional racism is a problem, but defunding the police, abolishing the police, those are steps too far, we want reform.” What do you say to them? What’s wrong with police reform?
PC: Well, what I say to people is, and when we say defunding the police, we’re not saying stop having people be accountable to issues of harm and violence. This is not a conversation about lack of accountability. This is a conversation about building in a new system of accountability, one that is based on an economy of care over an economy of punishment.
Right now, we have a system that is punitive, that is based on punishing human beings. And that is cruel and evil. The system that we’re asking for is a compassionate and loving system, and that is able to still hold people accountable for harm that they cause. That is totally in alignment with people who believe in defunding, and also with people who believe in abolition.
MH: But reform, you believe the police — we have to go beyond reform, reform’s not enough reform, doesn’t work? What’s your position on ‘reform’?
PC: I think it depends on the kind of reform.
When I talk about reform, I’m thinking about non-reformist reform, which is — my work is about decreasing the police’s ability to be in contact with black people. And so whatever demands that I’m making, or the organizations that I work with are making, is always about how do we lessen the burden of police on black communities?
So a reform can be reform like body cameras. Does that change the structural violence and racism inside of police departments? No, actually, it has not changed it at all. Instead, body cameras are just showing us more and more the dysfunctionality of policing.
And so, the other reform that we’re calling for — because defunding the police is a reform, but it’s the reform that isn’t giving the police state more money.
MH: The immediate response from a lot of people in recent days, including people of color, to this idea of defunding or abolishing the police is: What happens if I’m in trouble? What happens if I am facing a violent or dangerous person? Who do I call?
PC: Hopefully, we can build new institutions that people can have a new place to call. If it’s 911, then hopefully, someone’s in a mental health crisis, you can call 911. And instead of them sending a police officer who may kill the person who’s in that mental health crisis, you call someone like a caseworker or a psychiatrist who’s been trained to de-escalate an issue.
The problem is, oftentimes when police do show up, more violence happens. It doesn’t make it less violent when the police are involved. And that’s very important for people to understand.
MH: I totally get that and your example of the mental health situation is a very good one. But then of course, there are always the extreme examples that are used to make the other side of the argument. So if you’re in an armed robbery, you’re an owner of a gas station and people are — men with guns or trying to rob you. You want armed police to turn up and protect you, don’t you?
PC: Depends. Once again, we’ve seen many of examples where people have been armed, and there’s been — on video — where other people have de-escalated them. An eye for an eye is not actually a true response if we’re trying to get harm reduction.
What we’ve seen across neighborhoods in places where there’s a significant amount of harm and violence is when you have policing as the only answer, it creates more harm and violence.
And so the answer is really in institutions that are based in community care, institutions that are working with the community to try to deal with the violence instead of use the police to cause more violence.
I think the other thing is, we have a myth about what the police do. So I think it’s important for listeners to understand none of us understand what a beat cop does, because what we watch on TV is that they solve murders and rapes; violent crime is only one to five percent. So what a beat cop does is mostly about dealing with poverty. That’s what a beat cop does, and I think it’s really, really important that we start to investigate how we understand policing, and the propaganda that we’ve been, you know, shoved down our throats around policing.
MH: So you’re making the case for doing this very eloquently in terms of describing the status quo being broken.
In Minneapolis, they’ve said that they want to disband the police department, come up with something better, reimagine it, but they haven’t really said what it is that they’re going to do — they’ve admitted it can’t be done overnight. It’s going to take a year.
Now, many people would say the devil is in the details. Saying “defund the police” or “abolish the police,” that’s easy. Doing it, executing that vision is much harder. Would you concede that?
PC: Yes, it is. It’s much harder because every single institution we are a part of us as law enforcement: our schools — our public schools, our public hospitals, our public parks, every single institution relies on law enforcement. And so it means that we have to reimagine entirely new systems.
The good news is, is there are many people across this country and the world who have been thinking about this for a very long time; they have ideas about what those new systems can be? They’ve tried it in small — they’ve beta tested it in small areas, in small neighborhoods. So it’s not like people have to learn from scratch. It’s just not popular. This is the first time in modern history where abolitionism and this concept of defunding the police is a popular moment.
I often think about what it must have felt like when black folks were abolishing slavery and they finally got the word that they were moving towards abolition. I mean, that’s the moment that we’re in. And it’s very powerful.
MH: But are you comparing the police to slave owners, though — anyway, many people would say that, that’s a comparison that’s not fair.
PC: No, I’m comparing the police to patrols, slave patrols, which is what they were originally, they were created so they could go catch enslaved Africans who were fleeing for freedom. That’s the role of the police; that’s the role that they’ve always played. So they weren’t the slave owners, but they worked on behalf of them.
MH: That’s a very good point. You’re in LA, where Democratic mayor Eric Garcetti has agreed to cut the LAPD budget by $100 million, I think, and divert some of that money towards communities of color. Do steps like that, incremental steps, modest steps, do they count, in your view, towards “defunding the police”? Or is it all or nothing in your view? It has to look like Minneapolis, or like Camden, New Jersey?
PC: No, it’s an important step, but it is a far, far cry from what we’ve asked for. LAPD’s budget is $3 billion; $150 million is nothing. So we need to continue to cut at that budget. And I think it’s incredibly important that we remember that $150 million doesn’t mean that the budget isn’t still more than half of the city budget.
MH: So you talked about your asks and the progress. You’re a co-founder of Black Lives Matter. There’s been a remarkable change in public attitudes driven by Black Lives Matter protesters and others over the years.
I was just looking at the polling after Ferguson in 2014. The proportion of Republicans who said the killing of unarmed African-American men by the police was a reflection of broader problems with the police — that’s doubled from 19 percent in 2014 to 47 percent, almost half of Republicans today. Across all Americans, it’s a massive 69 percent who say there are broader problems with the police’s treatment of black men.
Do those numbers surprise you? Shock you? I mean, I’m sure they make you happy, but how surprised are you at the change we’re seeing? Is it quick enough for you?
PC: I’m pretty surprised, actually. Grateful. But yes, surprised. I feel like we remember being called terrorist, and remember people believing it across the country and across the globe. And so to see that shift is profound, and it means that whatever we have been doing, it’s working.
MH: I mean, we even saw in recent days Republican Senator and former Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney, joining the protests in DC saying, “Black Lives Matter,” saying those three dirty words (for the Right). Is that an indication of a political shift on the Right or is, as usual, Mitt Romney an outlier?
PC: I think it’s both. I think there is a deep desire to challenge our current president. I think we’re in a political moment where people want to align around getting Trump out of office. And in a strange twist of events, Black Lives Matter happens to be the ultimate equalizer. [Laughs.]
And I’d never would have thought we’d be here.
MH: So you have Mitt Romney marching for Black Lives Matter, you have polling showing Americans are changing attitudes. There’s not a majority on board for defund the police yet, but there is a majority on board saying the police, something has to be done about the police, which itself is remarkable.
Then you have Joe Biden, the Democratic presidential candidate, saying this week, very clearly, that on the one hand, he does not support defunding the police, he wants to increase funding; on the other hand, he does accept there is systemic racism in the police and that has to be tackled, which I would argue is a big thing for him to say, given he’s the architect of the 1994 crime bill.
PC: Mhmm. Yeah, I mean, I think that so much of what we’re trying to do in this moment is get Trump out of office and hold Biden accountable to the needs of our movement.
We knew that it was going to be hard for the Democratic Party to get on board for defund the police, but it still feels incredibly important to push and challenge them, given that they have, you know, for a long time, milked the black vote and have been complicit in our death and, you know, our brutalization. So the hope is that we can push this candidate and also the entire party.
MH: And the Biden campaign say they want to increase funding to community policing initiatives, they say they want to pay for body cameras for more cops on the beat. Do they have a point? Is that fair?
PC: I think that’s an old demand, the idea of body cameras and community policing. I think those suggestions are unhelpful. And you know, the — the — like I said, the hope is that we could push him and his campaign to really look at the concept of defending and what we’re actually talking about.
MH: But you would accept, I assume, based on what you’re saying about the need to get Trump out. You agree that despite Biden’s horrific criminal justice record, what he’s offering in this election is far superior in terms of police reform and criminal justice reform than a second-term Trump presidency where basically they want to use law enforcement to go after Antifa and black protesters, and give white nationalists a pass.
PC: Absolutely.
MH: It’s not just Biden, though, is it, Patrisse? It’s not just white politicians. On Wednesday, on MSNBC, Congressman Jim Clyburn, highest-ranking black member of Congress, was saying people who talk about defunding the police are sloganeering, they’re hijacking the protest. He said, “We want the police, we need the police.”
It’s not just an ideological divide on the left or in the Democratic Party. There seems to be a pretty big generational divide among black Americans, doesn’t there? And we saw that in the presidential primaries, too.
PC: Yeah, I think that so much of what millennials and Gen Z-ers have experienced is heinous and terrible violence at the hands of law enforcement. And we have caught called on black electeds in particular to, you know, challenge policing, and to show up for a younger generation of black lives who want to see a new system.
At the end of the day, what we’re asking for are more jobs, more access to health care, adequate public education, mental health care, adequate access to healthy food. And we have to realize that budgets are finite. We can’t have hundreds of thousands — I mean — millions and billions of dollars towards policing, and also millions and billions of dollars towards health care. Something has to give. And what we’ve seen as we’ve — we’ve — we’ve stripped away the entire social welfare state, both at the local level, the state level, and the national level. And it’s time for, you know, both parties to come to grips and to provide the kind of healthy living that people in this country deserve.
MH: For you, Patrisse, I know this is very personal. One of the reasons you say you co-founded Black Lives Matter is because of the abuse your brother received at the hands of the police, and then in prison. Did you — did your brother — ever think you’d see a moment like this one a national uprising? Are you — is he — optimistic about the future, I wonder?
PC: We both are, you know, every, every moment of victory that we have had, whether it was the Yes on R victory — where we were able to pass the law, you know, that changed here in Los Angeles County, to stopping the jails, to getting civilian oversight of the sheriff’s department — to this moment where we’re finally talking about defunding and abolition, both him and I are always like: Wow, this is powerful. This is amazing. And — and — and it makes us really hopeful.
MH: And to someone who’s listening, who says: What can I do to take part in this struggle to help push back against institutional racism which seems so vast, it seems so unstoppable, it seems so much part of America’s DNA in so many ways? What advice would you give to a listener who wants to know what they can do?
PC: Number one: Start looking up this conversation. Read about defunding and abolition. Mariame Kaba is someone who talks about it a lot; Angela Davis has talked about it a lot. Alex Vitale, Kelly Lytle Hernández — those are four amazing thought leaders around this concept of defunding and abolition.
And number two: Support your local organizations who are doing work, especially black-led organizations. It’s been powerful to see so many people lifting up black leadership and black orgs.
And number three: Check your privilege. No matter what it is, check your ideas and your privilege and try to have — imagine just for a moment, what communities actually need versus the propaganda that we’ve been fed about what the police do for us.
MH: Patrisse Cullors, thank you so much for joining us on Deconstructed. Keep fighting the good fight.
PC: Thank you.
[Musical interlude.]
MH: That’s our show! Deconstructed is a production of First Look Media and The Intercept. Our producer is Zach Young. The show was mixed by Bryan Pugh. Our theme music was composed by Bart Warshaw. Betsy Reed is The Intercept’s editor in chief.
And I’m Mehdi Hasan. You can follow me on Twitter @mehdirhasan. If you haven’t already, please subscribe to the show so you can hear it every week. Go to theintercept.com/deconstructed to subscribe from your podcast platform of choice: iPhone, Android, whatever. If you’re subscribed already, please do leave us a rating or review — it helps people find the show. And if you want to give us feedback, email us at Podcasts@theintercept.com. Thanks so much!
See you next week.


theintercept--2020-06-12--Organizers in Minneapolis Weigh Role of Community Defense Groups in a Police-Free Future

Minneapolis ’ s 3rd Precinct burned , Anthony Allen stood on the roof of the iconic Midtown Exchange building and watched in awe as the area went up in flames .
Allen is the security manager for the building , a Minneapolis landmark built in 1928 that holds apartments , cafes , and specialty grocers .
A 26-year-old black man , Allen was deeply affected by the police murder of George Floyd , who , like him , worked in security .
His frustration was shared by many others , and now that collective anger had boiled over into white-hot @ @ @ @ @ @ @ business of protecting property , Allen understood the desperation .
“ As much as this stuff sucks , I think it ’ s worth the sacrifice , ” he said .
“ I ’ ll be able to tell my kids , ‘ When I was growing up , cops could kill us and nothing would happen .
And then a dude named George Floyd died , and everything changed.
’ ” But that weekend , things got weird .
The neighborhood surrounding Midtown Exchange is racially diverse , with a large immigrant @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , “ an Expedition drove by , no license plate and bumping death metal , with bald buff white dudes in it.
” On Facebook , he watched a video of three white men beating up a black man at Chicago Lake Liquors , just across the street from Midtown Exchange .
Andy Nowacki , who lives nearby and attempted to put out some of the fires in the area , said that by the end of the week , he also began noticing strange vehicles with no license plates .
Similar reports @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , members of the American Indian Movement Patrol , a Native-led group founded in 1968 to monitor the streets of Minneapolis for police abuse , confronted three white teenagers from Wisconsin looting a liquor store .
The property damage spilled into predominantly black north Minneapolis , too , with beloved black-owned businesses going up in flames .
And on May 31 , a video interview by a reporter for the local nonprofit media organization Sahan Journal showed two armed young white men wearing tactical gear at a protest downtown .
The men identified @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a term associated with the far-right Boogaloo movement , which promotes an anti-government ideology that calls for civil unrest as a means to accelerate the collapse of the political system .
“ If we can burn down a couple of black-owned businesses in the middle of all the chaos , it ’ s a good move for the racist people , ” Allen said .
“ I think that ’ s what their logic is.
” His security team soon had help from an ad-hoc community defense group of around 30 volunteers wielding @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the business owners who rented commercial space in the building .
Fueled by distrust of the police and assertions by public officials that white supremacists and other outsiders are infiltrating communities in the wake of Floyd ’ s murder , residents of various backgrounds across the Twin Cities have formed neighborhood watch groups , in some cases arming themselves with pots , pans , and bats , and in others , with assault rifles .
With the Minneapolis City Council pledging on Sunday to dismantle the police department , some organizers have suggested @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to over-policing and brutality .
But neighborhood watch groups have their own fraught history , at times contributing to violence toward people of color .
In Minneapolis , the ad hoc associations have at turns clamped down on and amplified an intense rumor mill .
Some community members point out that the groups , like so many proposals intended to remake community safety structures , run the risk of replicating the abuses of the police .
Tony Williams , a 27-year-old Minneapolis police abolitionist who has been involved in his neighborhood ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , said he believes government officials ’ at-times-false claims about outside agitators should be considered separately from the serious concerns raised by community members .
But Williams , who is black , views the defense groups with caution .
“ A lot of these neighborhood patrols are predominantly white — not all of them , obviously — and if those white folks haven ’ t dealt with their own racism , their own internalized white supremacy , then they can very easily turn into a vigilante justice group , ” he said .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ kernel that could evolve into an effective form of safety in Minneapolis , and they are keeping people safe right now , but I also think they ’ re going to require a lot of political education and a lot of dedication on the part of organizers and members of these groups in order to make sure they do more good than harm.
” One video in particular set off the anxiety surrounding outside agitators and infiltrators in Minneapolis .
On the first night of property damage , a white man dressed in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and carrying an umbrella was filmed methodically breaking the windows of the AutoZone near the 3rd Precinct .
When observers confronted him — one yelling , “ Are you a fucking cop ?
!
” — he avoided the questions and quickly walked away .
Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison tweeted , “ This man doesn ’ t look like any civil rights protestor I have ever seen .
Looks like a provocateur.
” Ellison asked his followers to help identify him .
One Twitter user posted a screenshot of a text conversation @ @ @ @ @ @ @ fiancee of a St. Paul cop , claiming she was sure the umbrella man was her ex .
Although only the man ’ s eyes were visible , and the St. Paul Police Department tweeted that the man was not their officer , to many viewers , it was proof enough that the property damage was being set off by white infiltrators and agitators , likely police .
In the days after the 3rd Precinct burned , a series of public officials inflamed the growing anxiety about outsiders .
“ I want to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey said at a press conference on May 30 .
“ The people that are doing this are not Minneapolis residents .
They are coming in largely from outside of this city , outside of the region , to prey on everything we have built over the last several decades.
” “ Our best estimate right now that I heard is about 20 percent is what we think are Minnesotans and about 80 percent are outside , ” Gov .
Tim Walz added the same day , as he announced @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
He added that he suspected that white supremacist groups and drug cartels might be taking advantage of the chaos .
St. Paul Mayor Melvin Carter went further , stating , “ Every single person we arrested last night I ’ m told was from out of state.
” Blaming civil unrest on “ outside agitators ” is a tactic that has long been used to help state officials delegitimize dissent and justify violent crackdowns .
Mayors and law enforcement leaders across the nation repeated the trope over the past two weeks as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ were both forced to walk back their statements after reporting on jail records revealed that the majority of those arrested were from the Minneapolis area .
SG grew up not far from where George Floyd was killed , as did her mother .
For three generations her family has experienced racism in Minneapolis firsthand .
The 37-year-old ’ s grandfather was the longtime head of the local NAACP .
He got involved in racial justice work after the local fire department refused to hire him despite ample qualifications , an incident that became @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the department .
SG ’ s brother was assaulted by police when he was 14 .
Her mother sued , but the jury acquitted the officer .
The family was harassed by police supporters in the wake of the trial , and for that reason SG asked that The Intercept only use her initials .
“ My pain is not at the people who burned those things down , it ’ s really and truly at the city of Minneapolis , that three generations in , all my family ’ s contributions to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ when it came to police violence , ” SG said .
“ It seems ridiculous to think that the people here in Minneapolis would experience all of that and need someone from the outside to make them enraged enough to burn things down .
It ’ s kind of offensive and disrespects all of the things we ’ ve been through.
” Although many residents underscored that there was real rage underlying much of the property damage in Minneapolis , they also emphasized that they had seen people show up who had little @ @ @ @ @ @ @ movement .
On the second night of widespread property damage , Niko Georgiades , a reporter for the nonprofit news organization Unicorn Riot , was livestreaming when he spotted a group of “ nerdy ” white guys standing off to the side .
They looked out of place , and one was wearing a Hawaiian shirt .
Georgiades was convinced they were members of the Boogaloo , whose adherents often wear Hawaiian shirts .
“ This is like the third group of strange white folks , ” he narrates in the grainy footage @ @ @ @ @ @ @ — white folks that are not down for the cause are out here.
” Raw Story and CNN also interviewed a member of the Boogaloo , who had traveled to Minneapolis from North Carolina to participate in the protests .
In fact , there is precedent for individuals associated with the right wing violently disrupting anti-police-brutality protests in Minneapolis .
In 2015 , Allen Scarsella , who had broadcast his white supremacist views in videos posted on 4chan , shot five protesters during an occupation of Minneapolis ’ s 4th Precinct organized in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Clark .
And far-right extremists like the Boogaloo and Proud Boys have shown up at Black Lives Matter protests elsewhere in the country this year .
“ We ’ ve been dealing with far right-wing and white supremacist groups terrorizing our community by burning down black-owned businesses , ” Minneapolis City Councilmember Phillipe Cunningham said on June 3 in a virtual town hall with former President Barack Obama .
Like numerous community members , Cunningham felt that the only way to deal with the threat of right-wing agitators was to get organized .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ , not far from the site of Floyd ’ s murder , hundreds of people attended a community meeting the Saturday after the protests began .
In addition to discussing mutual aid and rebuilding strategies , neighbors broke out into strategy groups block by block , to discuss how to protect themselves and their homes and businesses .
Similar meetings took place in North Minneapolis , a historically black area , and in Longfellow , where the 3rd Precinct station is located .
Much of the anxiety focused on far-right instigators .
“ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it feels like we ’ re under siege , ” Nowacki said .
“ Everyone is on edge about any weird-looking white person.
” During the civil rights movement , black , Indigenous , and other people of color formed patrols to protect their communities .
In North Minneapolis , black residents launched Soul Patrol in the wake of a riot in 1967 , aiming to act as a buffer between law enforcement and community members .
The American Indian Movement Patrol , born a few miles from where Floyd was murdered , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and a sense that the city had abandoned Native community members .
On a national level , the Black Panthers came together to prevent police brutality .
They later began providing free food and other forms of mutual aid — approaches that have resurfaced in Minneapolis amid the protests .
Another strain of watch group has ties to law enforcement .
National Neighborhood Watch was founded in 1972 with a grant from the National Sheriffs ’ Association , and in the decades that followed , its stickers showing a silhouette of a fedora @ @ @ @ @ @ @ suburban America .
In August 2011 , George Zimmerman called his local police department for support in setting up a neighborhood watch for his gated community .
Six months later , he shot and killed Trayvon Martin , an unarmed black 17-year-old wearing a hoodie and carrying Skittles .
Martin ’ s murder and Zimmerman ’ s acquittal became a key moment in the growing movement for black lives .
More recently , apps like Nextdoor and Amazon Ring ’ s Neighbors have encouraged residents to post about or record people they deem @ @ @ @ @ @ @ by cameras installed in users ’ homes with hundreds of police departments .
Both companies have been accused of fueling racism .
Watch volunteers and organizers in Minneapolis interviewed by The Intercept see themselves in the first vein , as an alternative to police .
Some groups are white-led , but others are primarily black , Native , or Latino .
They overwhelmingly support the protests and in many cases marched in the streets themselves .
Some are also vocal advocates of defunding the police .
In the days following Floyd ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ officials repeating the mistakes and inaction of the past , and some noted that the situation changed only after the police station burned .
“ I think it ’ s telling that there ’ s a causal relationship between the 3rd Precinct burning and Derek Chauvin getting arrested and charged , ” said Jordan Peacock , who helped organize a neighborhood watch group in Lowry Hill East , a neighborhood that includes a part of Lake Street with substantial property damage .
In the days that followed , he added , the use @ @ @ @ @ @ @ protesters only added to residents ’ frustrations .
“ There were many , many steps where this could have been dealt with in a healthy way.
” Some groups erected blockades on their streets so that drivers couldn ’ t pass by , and residents were on high alert for any car missing a license plate or with out-of-state plates .
Reports proliferated on social media of hidden stashes of flammable materials , and communities swept alleys searching for out-of-place items , swapping stories in newly formed WhatsApp groups and Discord servers .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ baseball bats and pots and pans at intervals : one person on the sidewalk of each block , and one in the alley .
If suspicious people or vehicles were spotted , the volunteers banged on pots and pans , and neighbors ran from their houses to help .
In some cases , individuals involved in the groups succeeded in scaring off suspicious characters .
A resident of a South Minneapolis neighborhood miles from the protests described to The Intercept a confrontation with four white men in tactical gear wielding knives and a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ from the suburb of Burnsville .
The community member declined to share his name , out of concern about retaliation from right-wing groups , but in a video showing part of the confrontation , one of the men holds a sign that says “ Rome , ” a reference sometimes used by right-wing groups to celebrate what they see as the origins of Western , white male culture .
After one of them indicated that he might have a gun , the resident scared him off by pumping his shotgun .
There are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ — civilians patrolling communities for outsiders .
In some cases , residents have disagreed on who qualified as suspicious .
Some people wanted to stop every vehicle , said Doug Mack , one of the Longfellow volunteers .
“ I am concerned that some of the neighbors will view themselves as heroes when they ’ re actually disrupting people ’ s lives and harassing people who are just out walking the dog from a couple blocks over , or who are genuinely trying to leave town and just happen to have Wisconsin plates.
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ 35W , in the Lowry Hill East neighborhood , organizers have tried to keep rumors and anxiety in check .
They created a channel labeled “ unconfirmed reports ” for events that people had not witnessed firsthand .
They also began insisting that residents collect two suspicious data points before reporting an incident , for example , a car with the plates removed that also had an “ All Lives Matter ” bumper sticker .
Miski Noor , an organizer for Black Visions Collective , which has led the call to defund the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ their neighborhood as a positive development .
“ I live a couple blocks from the George Floyd memorial .
Every day , it ’ s like a block party — there ’ s someone barbecuing and making free food , there ’ s people making art , there ’ s a jazz band .
I don ’ t think there ’ s this cloud of overly suspiciousness , ” Noor said .
“ I don ’ t think there ’ s these two contending sides .
There ’ s community , and they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ each other safe.
” Now that the Minneapolis City Council has vowed to disband the police department , Peacock hopes that the groups can provide alternative forms of mediation , without involving the authorities .
“ What precisely that looks like and how do we do that in a responsible way — that ’ s the discussion , ” Peacock said .
In the virtual town hall , Cunningham mentioned a similar intention .
“ We ’ ve come together and protected our own community , and now it ’ s time to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sustainable.
” The Work Is Just Beginning Despite his encounter with the Boogaloo , Georgiades is skeptical of the paranoia that swept like wildfire through Minneapolis .
To him , the man with the umbrella flagged as a provocateur is case in point .
“ He was not the police , ” the Unicorn Riot reporter said .
“ I ’ m 100 percent sure.
” Georgiades said he ’ d verified through trusted contacts that the man opposes racism and has strong links to the Twin Cities community .
He declined to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are currently undertaking to identify those who destroyed property .
On Monday , with the rumor still being spread as proof of police infiltration , the St. Paul police released surveillance footage that they said shows the officer alleged to be the umbrella man loading equipment into a vehicle at the same time that the AutoZone windows were being smashed .
On the first couple nights of the protests , as Georgiades filmed the 3rd Precinct burning and the Target being looted , he didn ’ t feel like he was witnessing the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ “ I interpreted it as coming from regular , mainstream youth that are sick of police killing them , ” he said , adding that the collective rage simply overwhelmed community members who were attempting to prevent people from damaging property .
“ That was not white kids from the suburbs , or from Indiana , or the police — that was the kids that live here , that were not a part of an organization.
” He acknowledged that later in the week , the air on the streets had changed , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ “ People are uptight for reasons .
I get it — your whole neighborhood is burning down , you don ’ t want your shit burned down , but at the same time , it ’ s this mentality and mind frame that pushed the paranoia way further than it should have , ” Georgiades said .
Despite its efforts to tamp down on paranoia , the Lowry Hill East neighborhood group has had to field a claim that one resident bashed another resident ’ s car with a hammer .
SG also @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the creation of community defense groups .
“ While I do appreciate and think that people should protect their own neighborhoods , a lot of the same white micro-aggressions that are used daily in Minneapolis have been used in their so-called patrolling , ” SG said .
“ Even if they ’ re reporting white people , they ’ re using that same lens to keep the bad people out .
It ’ s the same thing that pushed people to feel like they weren ’ t a part of this city in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the local black community , SG said , “ We don ’ t feel a sense of relief or that things are over .
The work that ’ s ahead for us is literally just beginning.
” Williams , the police abolitionist , agreed that there is more work to be done .
“ I think these groups are being born out of a desire by neighbors to keep each other safe , and that ’ s beautiful and amazing and absolutely the foundation we need to build an abolitionist future , ” @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hope more than anything is the mutual aid efforts that tackle safety at its roots .
He pointed to activists who commandeered the Sheraton hotel and transformed it into the “ Sanctuary Hotel , ” a massive mutual aid station that housed more than 200 homeless community members , some of whom had been evicted from encampments as the city responded to the Covid-19 pandemic .
“ My greatest hope is that we can create a police-free city , and one that ’ s safer and less racist and more beautiful than the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ said .
“ One where everybody ’ s needs are met and where everybody feels like they have control over what safety looks like in their community .
”

The night that Minneapolis’s 3rd Precinct burned, Anthony Allen stood on the roof of the iconic Midtown Exchange building and watched in awe as the area went up in flames. Allen is the security manager for the building, a Minneapolis landmark built in 1928 that holds apartments, cafes, and specialty grocers. A 26-year-old black man, Allen was deeply affected by the police murder of George Floyd, who, like him, worked in security. His frustration was shared by many others, and now that collective anger had boiled over into white-hot rage.
Although he was in the business of protecting property, Allen understood the desperation. “As much as this stuff sucks, I think it’s worth the sacrifice,” he said. “I’ll be able to tell my kids, ‘When I was growing up, cops could kill us and nothing would happen. And then a dude named George Floyd died, and everything changed.’”
But that weekend, things got weird. The neighborhood surrounding Midtown Exchange is racially diverse, with a large immigrant population. One night, Allen said, “an Expedition drove by, no license plate and bumping death metal, with bald buff white dudes in it.” On Facebook, he watched a video of three white men beating up a black man at Chicago Lake Liquors, just across the street from Midtown Exchange. Andy Nowacki, who lives nearby and attempted to put out some of the fires in the area, said that by the end of the week, he also began noticing strange vehicles with no license plates.
Similar reports proliferated throughout the city. Farther east, members of the American Indian Movement Patrol, a Native-led group founded in 1968 to monitor the streets of Minneapolis for police abuse, confronted three white teenagers from Wisconsin looting a liquor store. The property damage spilled into predominantly black north Minneapolis, too, with beloved black-owned businesses going up in flames. And on May 31, a video interview by a reporter for the local nonprofit media organization Sahan Journal showed two armed young white men wearing tactical gear at a protest downtown. The men identified themselves as members of the Boojahideen, a term associated with the far-right Boogaloo movement, which promotes an anti-government ideology that calls for civil unrest as a means to accelerate the collapse of the political system.
“If we can burn down a couple of black-owned businesses in the middle of all the chaos, it’s a good move for the racist people,” Allen said. “I think that’s what their logic is.” His security team soon had help from an ad-hoc community defense group of around 30 volunteers wielding baseball bats — friends of one of the business owners who rented commercial space in the building.
Fueled by distrust of the police and assertions by public officials that white supremacists and other outsiders are infiltrating communities in the wake of Floyd’s murder, residents of various backgrounds across the Twin Cities have formed neighborhood watch groups, in some cases arming themselves with pots, pans, and bats, and in others, with assault rifles. With the Minneapolis City Council pledging on Sunday to dismantle the police department, some organizers have suggested that these groups can offer long-term alternatives to over-policing and brutality.
But neighborhood watch groups have their own fraught history, at times contributing to violence toward people of color. In Minneapolis, the ad hoc associations have at turns clamped down on and amplified an intense rumor mill. Some community members point out that the groups, like so many proposals intended to remake community safety structures, run the risk of replicating the abuses of the police.
Tony Williams, a 27-year-old Minneapolis police abolitionist who has been involved in his neighborhood’s community defense group in the Whittier area, said he believes government officials’ at-times-false claims about outside agitators should be considered separately from the serious concerns raised by community members. But Williams, who is black, views the defense groups with caution. “A lot of these neighborhood patrols are predominantly white — not all of them, obviously — and if those white folks haven’t dealt with their own racism, their own internalized white supremacy, then they can very easily turn into a vigilante justice group,” he said. “I think it’s a kernel that could evolve into an effective form of safety in Minneapolis, and they are keeping people safe right now, but I also think they’re going to require a lot of political education and a lot of dedication on the part of organizers and members of these groups in order to make sure they do more good than harm.”
Official Misinformation
One video in particular set off the anxiety surrounding outside agitators and infiltrators in Minneapolis. On the first night of property damage, a white man dressed in black, wearing a gas mask, and carrying an umbrella was filmed methodically breaking the windows of the AutoZone near the 3rd Precinct. When observers confronted him — one yelling, “Are you a fucking cop?!” — he avoided the questions and quickly walked away. Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison tweeted, “This man doesn’t look like any civil rights protestor I have ever seen. Looks like a provocateur.” Ellison asked his followers to help identify him. One Twitter user posted a screenshot of a text conversation with a person identified as the former fiancee of a St. Paul cop, claiming she was sure the umbrella man was her ex. Although only the man’s eyes were visible, and the St. Paul Police Department tweeted that the man was not their officer, to many viewers, it was proof enough that the property damage was being set off by white infiltrators and agitators, likely police.
In the days after the 3rd Precinct burned, a series of public officials inflamed the growing anxiety about outsiders. “I want to be very, very clear,” Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey said at a press conference on May 30. “The people that are doing this are not Minneapolis residents. They are coming in largely from outside of this city, outside of the region, to prey on everything we have built over the last several decades.”
“Our best estimate right now that I heard is about 20 percent is what we think are Minnesotans and about 80 percent are outside,” Gov. Tim Walz added the same day, as he announced he would be mobilizing the National Guard. He added that he suspected that white supremacist groups and drug cartels might be taking advantage of the chaos.
St. Paul Mayor Melvin Carter went further, stating, “Every single person we arrested last night I’m told was from out of state.”
Blaming civil unrest on “outside agitators” is a tactic that has long been used to help state officials delegitimize dissent and justify violent crackdowns. Mayors and law enforcement leaders across the nation repeated the trope over the past two weeks as the protests spread. Carter and Walz were both forced to walk back their statements after reporting on jail records revealed that the majority of those arrested were from the Minneapolis area.
Photo: John Autey/MediaNews Group/Getty Images
SG grew up not far from where George Floyd was killed, as did her mother. For three generations her family has experienced racism in Minneapolis firsthand. The 37-year-old’s grandfather was the longtime head of the local NAACP. He got involved in racial justice work after the local fire department refused to hire him despite ample qualifications, an incident that became part of a landmark lawsuit that integrated the department. SG’s brother was assaulted by police when he was 14. Her mother sued, but the jury acquitted the officer. The family was harassed by police supporters in the wake of the trial, and for that reason SG asked that The Intercept only use her initials.
“My pain is not at the people who burned those things down, it’s really and truly at the city of Minneapolis, that three generations in, all my family’s contributions to this city — it all meant nothing when it came to police violence,” SG said. “It seems ridiculous to think that the people here in Minneapolis would experience all of that and need someone from the outside to make them enraged enough to burn things down. It’s kind of offensive and disrespects all of the things we’ve been through.”
“It seems ridiculous to think that the people here in Minneapolis would experience all of that and need someone from the outside to make them enraged enough to burn things down.”
Although many residents underscored that there was real rage underlying much of the property damage in Minneapolis, they also emphasized that they had seen people show up who had little apparent connection to the Black Lives Matter movement. On the second night of widespread property damage, Niko Georgiades, a reporter for the nonprofit news organization Unicorn Riot, was livestreaming when he spotted a group of “nerdy” white guys standing off to the side. They looked out of place, and one was wearing a Hawaiian shirt. Georgiades was convinced they were members of the Boogaloo, whose adherents often wear Hawaiian shirts. “This is like the third group of strange white folks,” he narrates in the grainy footage. “It’s a reality — white folks that are not down for the cause are out here.” Raw Story and CNN also interviewed a member of the Boogaloo, who had traveled to Minneapolis from North Carolina to participate in the protests.
In fact, there is precedent for individuals associated with the right wing violently disrupting anti-police-brutality protests in Minneapolis. In 2015, Allen Scarsella, who had broadcast his white supremacist views in videos posted on 4chan, shot five protesters during an occupation of Minneapolis’s 4th Precinct organized in response to the police killing of Jamar Clark. And far-right extremists like the Boogaloo and Proud Boys have shown up at Black Lives Matter protests elsewhere in the country this year.
“We’ve been dealing with far right-wing and white supremacist groups terrorizing our community by burning down black-owned businesses,” Minneapolis City Councilmember Phillipe Cunningham said on June 3 in a virtual town hall with former President Barack Obama. Like numerous community members, Cunningham felt that the only way to deal with the threat of right-wing agitators was to get organized.
Everyone Is on Edge
In Powderhorn Park, not far from the site of Floyd’s murder, hundreds of people attended a community meeting the Saturday after the protests began. In addition to discussing mutual aid and rebuilding strategies, neighbors broke out into strategy groups block by block, to discuss how to protect themselves and their homes and businesses. Similar meetings took place in North Minneapolis, a historically black area, and in Longfellow, where the 3rd Precinct station is located. Much of the anxiety focused on far-right instigators.
“We’re under siege — or it feels like we’re under siege,” Nowacki said. “Everyone is on edge about any weird-looking white person.”
During the civil rights movement, black, Indigenous, and other people of color formed patrols to protect their communities. In North Minneapolis, black residents launched Soul Patrol in the wake of a riot in 1967, aiming to act as a buffer between law enforcement and community members. The American Indian Movement Patrol, born a few miles from where Floyd was murdered, was a response to routine police abuse and a sense that the city had abandoned Native community members. On a national level, the Black Panthers came together to prevent police brutality. They later began providing free food and other forms of mutual aid — approaches that have resurfaced in Minneapolis amid the protests.
If suspicious people or vehicles were spotted, the volunteers banged on pots and pans, and neighbors ran from their houses to help.
Another strain of watch group has ties to law enforcement. National Neighborhood Watch was founded in 1972 with a grant from the National Sheriffs’ Association, and in the decades that followed, its stickers showing a silhouette of a fedora and trenchcoat were plastered to windows throughout suburban America.
In August 2011, George Zimmerman called his local police department for support in setting up a neighborhood watch for his gated community. Six months later, he shot and killed Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black 17-year-old wearing a hoodie and carrying Skittles. Martin’s murder and Zimmerman’s acquittal became a key moment in the growing movement for black lives.
More recently, apps like Nextdoor and Amazon Ring’s Neighbors have encouraged residents to post about or record people they deem suspicious. Ring shares the footage recorded by cameras installed in users’ homes with hundreds of police departments. Both companies have been accused of fueling racism.
Watch volunteers and organizers in Minneapolis interviewed by The Intercept see themselves in the first vein, as an alternative to police. Some groups are white-led, but others are primarily black, Native, or Latino. They overwhelmingly support the protests and in many cases marched in the streets themselves. Some are also vocal advocates of defunding the police.
In the days following Floyd’s murder, many saw city and county officials repeating the mistakes and inaction of the past, and some noted that the situation changed only after the police station burned. “I think it’s telling that there’s a causal relationship between the 3rd Precinct burning and Derek Chauvin getting arrested and charged,” said Jordan Peacock, who helped organize a neighborhood watch group in Lowry Hill East, a neighborhood that includes a part of Lake Street with substantial property damage. In the days that followed, he added, the use of tear gas and rubber bullets against protesters only added to residents’ frustrations. “There were many, many steps where this could have been dealt with in a healthy way.”
Some groups erected blockades on their streets so that drivers couldn’t pass by, and residents were on high alert for any car missing a license plate or with out-of-state plates. Reports proliferated on social media of hidden stashes of flammable materials, and communities swept alleys searching for out-of-place items, swapping stories in newly formed WhatsApp groups and Discord servers.
In Longfellow, residents stationed themselves with baseball bats and pots and pans at intervals: one person on the sidewalk of each block, and one in the alley. If suspicious people or vehicles were spotted, the volunteers banged on pots and pans, and neighbors ran from their houses to help.
The Lowry Hill East neighborhood group had to field a claim that one resident bashed another resident’s car with a hammer.
In some cases, individuals involved in the groups succeeded in scaring off suspicious characters. A resident of a South Minneapolis neighborhood miles from the protests described to The Intercept a confrontation with four white men in tactical gear wielding knives and a machete, who told him they were from the suburb of Burnsville. The community member declined to share his name, out of concern about retaliation from right-wing groups, but in a video showing part of the confrontation, one of the men holds a sign that says “Rome,” a reference sometimes used by right-wing groups to celebrate what they see as the origins of Western, white male culture. After one of them indicated that he might have a gun, the resident scared him off by pumping his shotgun.
There are risks involved with armed — or unarmed — civilians patrolling communities for outsiders. In some cases, residents have disagreed on who qualified as suspicious. Some people wanted to stop every vehicle, said Doug Mack, one of the Longfellow volunteers. “I am concerned that some of the neighbors will view themselves as heroes when they’re actually disrupting people’s lives and harassing people who are just out walking the dog from a couple blocks over, or who are genuinely trying to leave town and just happen to have Wisconsin plates.”
On the other side of Interstate 35W, in the Lowry Hill East neighborhood, organizers have tried to keep rumors and anxiety in check. They created a channel labeled “unconfirmed reports” for events that people had not witnessed firsthand. They also began insisting that residents collect two suspicious data points before reporting an incident, for example, a car with the plates removed that also had an “All Lives Matter” bumper sticker.
Miski Noor, an organizer for Black Visions Collective, which has led the call to defund the police, views the defense groups in their neighborhood as a positive development. “I live a couple blocks from the George Floyd memorial. Every day, it’s like a block party — there’s someone barbecuing and making free food, there’s people making art, there’s a jazz band. I don’t think there’s this cloud of overly suspiciousness,” Noor said. “I don’t think there’s these two contending sides. There’s community, and they’re thinking about how to keep each other safe.”
Now that the Minneapolis City Council has vowed to disband the police department, Peacock hopes that the groups can provide alternative forms of mediation, without involving the authorities. “What precisely that looks like and how do we do that in a responsible way — that’s the discussion,” Peacock said.
In the virtual town hall, Cunningham mentioned a similar intention. “We’ve come together and protected our own community, and now it’s time to systematize community-led safety strategies and make them sustainable.”
The Work Is Just Beginning
Despite his encounter with the Boogaloo, Georgiades is skeptical of the paranoia that swept like wildfire through Minneapolis. To him, the man with the umbrella flagged as a provocateur is case in point. “He was not the police,” the Unicorn Riot reporter said. “I’m 100 percent sure.” Georgiades said he’d verified through trusted contacts that the man opposes racism and has strong links to the Twin Cities community. He declined to elaborate further, citing the efforts police are currently undertaking to identify those who destroyed property. On Monday, with the rumor still being spread as proof of police infiltration, the St. Paul police released surveillance footage that they said shows the officer alleged to be the umbrella man loading equipment into a vehicle at the same time that the AutoZone windows were being smashed.
On the first couple nights of the protests, as Georgiades filmed the 3rd Precinct burning and the Target being looted, he didn’t feel like he was witnessing the work of white supremacists or provocateurs. “I interpreted it as coming from regular, mainstream youth that are sick of police killing them,” he said, adding that the collective rage simply overwhelmed community members who were attempting to prevent people from damaging property. “That was not white kids from the suburbs, or from Indiana, or the police — that was the kids that live here, that were not a part of an organization.”
“We don’t feel a sense of relief or that things are over. The work that’s ahead for us is literally just beginning.”
He acknowledged that later in the week, the air on the streets had changed, and there were more strange faces. “People are uptight for reasons. I get it — your whole neighborhood is burning down, you don’t want your shit burned down, but at the same time, it’s this mentality and mind frame that pushed the paranoia way further than it should have,” Georgiades said. Despite its efforts to tamp down on paranoia, the Lowry Hill East neighborhood group has had to field a claim that one resident bashed another resident’s car with a hammer.
SG also didn’t take much comfort in the creation of community defense groups. “While I do appreciate and think that people should protect their own neighborhoods, a lot of the same white micro-aggressions that are used daily in Minneapolis have been used in their so-called patrolling,” SG said. “Even if they’re reporting white people, they’re using that same lens to keep the bad people out. It’s the same thing that pushed people to feel like they weren’t a part of this city in the first place.”
For some in the local black community, SG said, “We don’t feel a sense of relief or that things are over. The work that’s ahead for us is literally just beginning.”
Williams, the police abolitionist, agreed that there is more work to be done. “I think these groups are being born out of a desire by neighbors to keep each other safe, and that’s beautiful and amazing and absolutely the foundation we need to build an abolitionist future,” said Williams. But what gives him hope more than anything is the mutual aid efforts that tackle safety at its roots. He pointed to activists who commandeered the Sheraton hotel and transformed it into the “Sanctuary Hotel,” a massive mutual aid station that housed more than 200 homeless community members, some of whom had been evicted from encampments as the city responded to the Covid-19 pandemic.
“My greatest hope is that we can create a police-free city, and one that’s safer and less racist and more beautiful than the one we have now,” Williams said. “One where everybody’s needs are met and where everybody feels like they have control over what safety looks like in their community.”