democracynow--2020-03-30--We Need a Public Health New Deal: Neoliberal Austerity & Private Healthcare Worsened U.S. Pandemic

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : It ’ s been described as the public health failure of the century .
As the global death toll from the COVID-19 pandemic tops 34,000 with 723,000 confirmed cases , the United States continues to lead in coronavirus cases with over 143,000 known infections — though the true number is certain to be much higher because of the extreme lack of testing .
The U.S. is now reporting nearly 2,600 deaths .
After receiving widespread condemnation for downplaying the threat of the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ reversed course on lifting social distancing advisories by Easter and extended the government guidelines through the end of April .
This comes after he signed the record-breaking $ 2 trillion coronavirus bill into law Friday that ’ s been condemned by critics for including corporate slush funds , and a record 3.3 million Americans have filed for unemployment .
On Friday , the head of the International Federation of Red Cross warned social unrest could erupt among people who live in poverty and now lack sources of income amid the COVID-19 crisis .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ , we ’ ll be joined by a Yale epidemiologist and law professor , who are proposing a New Deal for public health .
Stay with us .
AMY GOODMAN : That ’ s the Toronto Symphony playing Aaron Copland ’ s Appalachian Spring from their homes .
This is Democracy Now !
, democracynow.org , The War and Peace Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman .
The global death toll from the COVID-19 pandemic nearing 35,000 and the confirmed cases nearing three-quarters of a million around the world .
We ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , who co-authored a piece for the Boston Review headlined “ Alone Against the Virus , ” in which they argue decades of neoliberal austerity will make it harder to fight the coronavirus pandemic .
They write , “ At every step , a rapaciously profit-driven health care system and an austerity-ravaged state will make this virus harder to manage .
… [ I ] nequality is itself associated with poorer health outcomes , including lower life expectancies across nations .
The coronavirus is about to illustrate that epidemics are great levelers : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ if — as with all forms of collapse — the people at the bottom get the worst of it.
” They go on to write , “ The question today is whether we can learn something from coronavirus that might not only help us mitigate the harm of this pandemic , but build a new infrastructure of care that allows us to better protect the most vulnerable — and us all.
” With us now to discuss their article and their argument is Gregg Gonsalves , assistant professor of epidemiology of microbial diseases @ @ @ @ @ @ @ co-director of the Global Health Justice Partnership , and Amy Kapczynski , professor of law at Yale Law School , co-founder of the Law and Political Economy blog , co-director of the Global Health Justice Partnership .
We welcome you both to Democracy Now !
If you can talk about how this pandemic has really applied a microscope to health injustice , not only in this country , but in the world ?
Amy Kapczynski , why don ’ t you begin ?
AMY KAPCZYNSKI : Thanks so much .
So , there @ @ @ @ @ @ @ pandemic is really revealing the kind of inner logic of our system , right ?
And so , one piece of it is , think about how our healthcare system is structured .
So , you know , the fact that people faced the question of whether they could afford testing or whether they can afford to go in and get treatment — for example , maybe a logical place to go would be to your doctor , but people don ’ t have doctors that they can go to , right ?
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ our profit-driven healthcare system , along with the underfunding of the infrastructure that we need to respond to this — for example , do we have enough hospital beds ?
Do we have the kind of resources given to our public health experts that can really allow them to respond ?
— all of those kinds of things are going to make this pandemic far worse than it needed to be .
Another really important piece of this is our carceral state .
The United States is extraordinarily extreme in the degree to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and we use kind of carceral punitive measures to address questions of migration .
This epidemic is going to spread like wildfire in prisons .
We know that prisons are drivers of epidemics , and we know that all of those who are being held in immigration detention are at really grave risk .
And those kinds of things , the fact that we have approached other people in our society with this kind of punitive carceral approach , is going to mean that the epidemic is going to be extraordinarily hard to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we ’ re all connected , it becomes harder to control elsewhere .
AMY GOODMAN : Gregg Gonsalves , if you can talk about the failure of the response , the astounding fact that President Trump keeps boasting that he applied a very early travel ban , and yet , even with this early travel ban , did not push for the access to tests , which are perhaps of the number one public health measure to prevent the spread , and also the protective gear to the heroes and heroines of the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ over this country , who are the hardest hit right now ?
GREGG GONSALVES : Sure .
So , as you mentioned , this is the public health failure of not this century , but probably the past hundred years , back to the 1918 great influenza epidemic that swept across the globe .
We knew in December that this was going to be a global pandemic .
It was a coronavirus like SARS which swept over the world , and we had three months to prepare .
There were reports internally circulating @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s say , early January , to give us a little bit of more breathing room for the public health response , but the government sat on its hands .
First it said , “ We ’ re not going use the WHO , World Health Organization , tests ; we ’ re going make our own.
” And , of course , it ran into problems in the implementation of that test and had to start from scratch .
So we got three months into the pandemic with no real public health @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we ’ ve had this sort of contradictory set of pronouncements from the White House .
The president underplays the seriousness of the epidemic , while scientists like Dr. Anthony Fauci of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases says we could see 200,000 deaths in this country .
So we ’ ve had sort of a collapse of leadership , from the CDC all the way up to the White House , in which we were caught , frankly , with our pants down for a pandemic that was obviously sweeping @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , we could have anticipated this and acted .
AMY GOODMAN : So , now , as we move forward , Professor Gonsalves , from an epidemiologic perspective , how do the neoliberal policies of the United States — and define that term , “ neoliberal ” — the kind of private healthcare system we have , how does it contribute to , accelerate the pandemic in this country ?
GREGG GONSALVES : Well , you know , I ’ d let Amy define neoliberalism , but I think what we see here @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Affordable Care Act , we still have millions of people uninsured in this country .
We have people underinsured .
As Amy also suggested , we have a whole class of people who are outside of our circle of care — undocumented immigrants , prisoners , the homeless .
And in order to sort of contain this epidemic , we need to know , through testing , where it is and to what extent , but we also have to be able to get people into care to be treated and taken @ @ @ @ @ @ @ get them the resources they need to do social distancing .
Social distancing is our main public health tool against this virus .
And unlike other countries in Europe , such as Denmark , which is providing 80 % of salary support to people in order to let them be able to stay home and a whole set of other social services we don ’ t give in this country to our populace , we ’ re going to make it very , very difficult for people to prevent the disease from spreading @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is what neoliberalism is — dog eat dog , every man and woman for himself — then maybe that ’ s a good definition for what it is .
And it ’ s hazardous to your health .
AMY GOODMAN : Professor Gonsalves , you go back with Dr. Fauci , way back , to the years of massive AIDS activism .
He was the leading figure during the Reagan years around AIDS .
Can you talk about your relationship with him and his approach to this pandemic ?
Trace the trajectory , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ seeing now .
GREGG GONSALVES : Well , Dr. Fauci , yes , has seen the AIDS epidemic .
He ’ s seen Ebola .
He ’ s seen H1N1 , SARS .
He ’ s been on the frontline of all these epidemics .
And , you know , early relationships with him were contentious , you know , protested against him , locked horns with him many times in the late ’ 80s , early ’ 90s .
But what I — AMY GOODMAN : You were part of ACT UP @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of ACT UP .
But what ’ s been clear over the past decade or more is that he ’ s turned out to be a very trustworthy , science-based , evidence-based figure for helping the United States understand how to respond to infectious disease , such as during the Ebola crisis when he hugged a nurse who had been treated for Ebola at the National Institute for Health .
He ’ s been the one person on the podium at the White House who has been able to sort of speak truth @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are , rather than what the spin is coming out of the vice president , the president , Ambassador Birx , Surgeon General Adams and the rest .
AMY GOODMAN : Amy Kapczynski , so I ’ m going to leave it to you to define these neoliberal policies that you have said have worsened this pandemic and the effect of it in the United States , and to lay out what our system is today .
Now insurance companies that say they will not only not charge for testing , but not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in a private system , but afterwards will immediately increase people ’ s insurance costs .
What is a New Deal for public health ?
But begin on the issue of neoliberal policies .
AMY KAPCZYNSKI : Sure .
So , neoliberalism is commonly defined by scholars as a kind of political movement that in fact sought to change our — the relationship between , effectively , kind of the market and democracy .
So , people often think of it as coming to prominence in the 1980s and the 1990s , think @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Washington Consensus as key pillars of neoliberal policy approaches .
So , they demand , for example , deregulation , the starving of the state , the expansion of the profit motive to more and more parts of society , and the organization of more and more parts of society according to market logic , right ?
So , deregulation , privatization and the priority given to markets over society and over people .
So , with that sort of in mind , I think it ’ s pretty clear to see @ @ @ @ @ @ @ healthcare system , but also a system of work , for example — right ?
— where there ’ s no sick pay for so many millions of Americans , they can ’ t stay home when they ’ re sick — that ’ s driven by a profit logic , right ?
That ’ s driven by an extractive idea about how business should relate to human beings .
And it ’ s one that underlines the health of all of us , right ?
Because if people — as everyone ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ moment , if people can ’ t stay home when they ’ re sick , then none of us can be protected from things like the coronavirus — right ?
— and many things beyond that .
So , that kind of profit logic , the same logic that starved the state — right ?
— that has — you know , one of the things we talk about in our piece is the way that public health has been underfunded and the way that Donald Trump is like the apotheosis of this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ point in one of these early press conferences that he didn ’ t want a lot of people sitting around preparing for epidemics because that was kind of wasted overhead , right ?
I mean , that kind of logic is what leaves us unprepared to deal with these deep structural vulnerabilities and to deal with crisis .
And that ’ s really where we ’ re at .
We don ’ t have the resources to hand .
We don ’ t have the institutions that we need to get care and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ don ’ t have ways to support people to do what our society needs us all to do right now , which is to stay home and take care of one another by staying home and engaging in social distancing .
So , what does a new system look like ?
Well , one of the key pillars , I think , of a New Deal for public health , as Gregg and I see it , is of course something like Medicare for All , so that we need people to be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ without concern that they ’ re going to go bankrupt — right ?
— which is what so many people face today , and we need to extend the circle of care to everyone , so that we ’ re all protected and so that we can all then be connected in this circle of care .
So , beyond that , of course , there are things like sick pay and rights for workers .
You know , I think you ’ re going to see that places that give workers rights @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they ’ re going to contribute more , to our [ inaudible ] than places that treat them as disposable .
So we need more power for workers .
We need more sick pay .
We need an expansion of the welfare state to keep people in a position where they can do not just the productive work of our society , but the reproductive work — right ?
— the caring for one another , which is what we ’ re all doing right now , staying home , caring for one @ @ @ @ @ @ @ t count in most measures of the economy , right ?
Staying home doesn ’ t count .
Staying home is not productive in the way that people ordinarily think about the economy .
And the system of kind of neoliberal economics that we ’ ve been given is one that systematically exploits the kind of care that we give her one another , that ’ s unpaid , and that doesn ’ t provide us with the resources that we need to kind of reproduce ourselves as a society .
So , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ need to roll back the carceral state — right ?
— that is spending extraordinary sums and putting people in extraordinary grave danger even in ordinary times — right ?
— and providing us with none of the things that we really need to be able to address the underlying causes of things like crime in our society .
So , all of those pieces together , along with a recognition that in fact the economy is something that we build , we build it together — and we need to build an @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that we want to live in , rather than one that treats people as disposable and that kind of exploits our planet and also our forms of care in the way that this one does today .
AMY GOODMAN : And finally , Gregg Gonsalves , where does Medicare for All fit into this picture ?
How do you see it saving the lives of not only the most vulnerable , but of everyone ?
GREGG GONSALVES : So , it ’ s interesting .
There ’ s a piece in the Times @ @ @ @ @ @ @ from Berkeley that talk about COVID Care for All .
And I think we ’ re talking — I think that the neologism is interesting , because this is what has brought us to this brink .
The failure of care in the United States , which is not recapitulated anywhere else in the industrialized world , has led us to a point where — depends on who you are whether you ’ re going to get sick or whether you ’ re going to get well , whether you ’ re going @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ re not going to get infected with the coronavirus .
So , unless we take care of each other from coast to coast , from north to south , east to west , we ’ re going to be vulnerable as the — we are all as vulnerable as the most vulnerable person in our society .
And so , unless undocumented immigrants , unless the incarcerated , unless the homeless are brought into the circle of care , with healthcare universally accessible across the United States , there will always be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sick who could be the spark that sets off the next epidemic .
AMY GOODMAN : Gregg Gonsalves and Amy Kapczynski , there ’ s so much more to talk about .
We will link to your pieces .
Both at Yale , Yale University , Gregg Gonsalves is an epidemiologist at the Yale School of Public Health .
They are co-directors of the Global Health Justice Partnership .
When we come back , we look at how more than 100,000 homeless people , from New York to Los Angeles to Oakland , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ spreads .
When political leaders say shelter at home , what about when you don ’ t have a home ?
Stay with us .
AMY GOODMAN : “ Ojitos Verdes , ” “ Little Green Eyes , ” performed via video conference by Maríachi Escandon of Roma Middle School in the border town of Roma , Texas , in the midst of this pandemic .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: It’s been described as the public health failure of the century. As the global death toll from the COVID-19 pandemic tops 34,000 with 723,000 confirmed cases, the United States continues to lead in coronavirus cases with over 143,000 known infections — though the true number is certain to be much higher because of the extreme lack of testing. The U.S. is now reporting nearly 2,600 deaths.
After receiving widespread condemnation for downplaying the threat of the virus, on Sunday, President Trump reversed course on lifting social distancing advisories by Easter and extended the government guidelines through the end of April. This comes after he signed the record-breaking $2 trillion coronavirus bill into law Friday that’s been condemned by critics for including corporate slush funds, and a record 3.3 million Americans have filed for unemployment. On Friday, the head of the International Federation of Red Cross warned social unrest could erupt among people who live in poverty and now lack sources of income amid the COVID-19 crisis.
FRANCESCO ROCCA: We have a lot of people who is living very marginalized, that we use all in the so-called black hole of the society, with the daily jobs or other way to live. And in the most difficult neighborhoods of the big city, I am afraid that in a few weeks we will have social problems. This is a social bomb that can explode in every moment, because they don’t have any way to have an income or to find an income.
AMY GOODMAN: When we come back, we’ll be joined by a Yale epidemiologist and law professor, who are proposing a New Deal for public health. Stay with us.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: That’s the Toronto Symphony playing Aaron Copland’s Appalachian Spring from their homes. This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman. The global death toll from the COVID-19 pandemic nearing 35,000 and the confirmed cases nearing three-quarters of a million around the world. We’re joined now by two Yale professors, who co-authored a piece for the Boston Review headlined “Alone Against the Virus,” in which they argue decades of neoliberal austerity will make it harder to fight the coronavirus pandemic. They write, “At every step, a rapaciously profit-driven health care system and an austerity-ravaged state will make this virus harder to manage. … [I]nequality is itself associated with poorer health outcomes, including lower life expectancies across nations. The coronavirus is about to illustrate that epidemics are great levelers: they can collapse social classes, even if — as with all forms of collapse — the people at the bottom get the worst of it.” They go on to write, “The question today is whether we can learn something from coronavirus that might not only help us mitigate the harm of this pandemic, but build a new infrastructure of care that allows us to better protect the most vulnerable — and us all.”
With us now to discuss their article and their argument is Gregg Gonsalves, assistant professor of epidemiology of microbial diseases at Yale School of Public Health, co-director of the Global Health Justice Partnership, and Amy Kapczynski, professor of law at Yale Law School, co-founder of the Law and Political Economy blog, co-director of the Global Health Justice Partnership.
We welcome you both to Democracy Now! If you can talk about how this pandemic has really applied a microscope to health injustice, not only in this country, but in the world? Amy Kapczynski, why don’t you begin?
AMY KAPCZYNSKI: Thanks so much. So, there are many ways in which the coronavirus pandemic is really revealing the kind of inner logic of our system, right? And so, one piece of it is, think about how our healthcare system is structured. So, you know, the fact that people faced the question of whether they could afford testing or whether they can afford to go in and get treatment — for example, maybe a logical place to go would be to your doctor, but people don’t have doctors that they can go to, right? All of those kinds of features of our profit-driven healthcare system, along with the underfunding of the infrastructure that we need to respond to this — for example, do we have enough hospital beds? Do we have the kind of resources given to our public health experts that can really allow them to respond? — all of those kinds of things are going to make this pandemic far worse than it needed to be.
Another really important piece of this is our carceral state. The United States is extraordinarily extreme in the degree to which we put people in prison, and we use kind of carceral punitive measures to address questions of migration. This epidemic is going to spread like wildfire in prisons. We know that prisons are drivers of epidemics, and we know that all of those who are being held in immigration detention are at really grave risk. And those kinds of things, the fact that we have approached other people in our society with this kind of punitive carceral approach, is going to mean that the epidemic is going to be extraordinarily hard to control in those places. And because we’re all connected, it becomes harder to control elsewhere.
AMY GOODMAN: Gregg Gonsalves, if you can talk about the failure of the response, the astounding fact that President Trump keeps boasting that he applied a very early travel ban, and yet, even with this early travel ban, did not push for the access to tests, which are perhaps of the number one public health measure to prevent the spread, and also the protective gear to the heroes and heroines of the United States, the medical professionals all over this country, who are the hardest hit right now?
GREGG GONSALVES: Sure. So, as you mentioned, this is the public health failure of not this century, but probably the past hundred years, back to the 1918 great influenza epidemic that swept across the globe. We knew in December that this was going to be a global pandemic. It was a coronavirus like SARS which swept over the world, and we had three months to prepare. There were reports internally circulating in D.C., even, let’s say, early January, to give us a little bit of more breathing room for the public health response, but the government sat on its hands. First it said, “We’re not going use the WHO, World Health Organization, tests; we’re going make our own.” And, of course, it ran into problems in the implementation of that test and had to start from scratch. So we got three months into the pandemic with no real public health response from our national government.
Then we’ve had this sort of contradictory set of pronouncements from the White House. The president underplays the seriousness of the epidemic, while scientists like Dr. Anthony Fauci of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases says we could see 200,000 deaths in this country. So we’ve had sort of a collapse of leadership, from the CDC all the way up to the White House, in which we were caught, frankly, with our pants down for a pandemic that was obviously sweeping the world. As early as January, we could have anticipated this and acted.
AMY GOODMAN: So, now, as we move forward, Professor Gonsalves, from an epidemiologic perspective, how do the neoliberal policies of the United States — and define that term, “neoliberal” — the kind of private healthcare system we have, how does it contribute to, accelerate the pandemic in this country?
GREGG GONSALVES: Well, you know, I’d let Amy define neoliberalism, but I think what we see here is that even in the wake of the Affordable Care Act, we still have millions of people uninsured in this country. We have people underinsured. As Amy also suggested, we have a whole class of people who are outside of our circle of care — undocumented immigrants, prisoners, the homeless. And in order to sort of contain this epidemic, we need to know, through testing, where it is and to what extent, but we also have to be able to get people into care to be treated and taken care of, to be able to get them the resources they need to do social distancing. Social distancing is our main public health tool against this virus. And unlike other countries in Europe, such as Denmark, which is providing 80% of salary support to people in order to let them be able to stay home and a whole set of other social services we don’t give in this country to our populace, we’re going to make it very, very difficult for people to prevent the disease from spreading in their communities. And if this is what neoliberalism is — dog eat dog, every man and woman for himself — then maybe that’s a good definition for what it is. And it’s hazardous to your health.
AMY GOODMAN: Professor Gonsalves, you go back with Dr. Fauci, way back, to the years of massive AIDS activism. He was the leading figure during the Reagan years around AIDS. Can you talk about your relationship with him and his approach to this pandemic? Trace the trajectory, from AIDS to what we’re seeing now.
GREGG GONSALVES: Well, Dr. Fauci, yes, has seen the AIDS epidemic. He’s seen Ebola. He’s seen H1N1, SARS. He’s been on the frontline of all these epidemics. And, you know, early relationships with him were contentious, you know, protested against him, locked horns with him many times in the late ’80s, early ’90s. But what I —
AMY GOODMAN: You were part of ACT UP.
GREGG GONSALVES: I was part of ACT UP. But what’s been clear over the past decade or more is that he’s turned out to be a very trustworthy, science-based, evidence-based figure for helping the United States understand how to respond to infectious disease, such as during the Ebola crisis when he hugged a nurse who had been treated for Ebola at the National Institute for Health. He’s been the one person on the podium at the White House who has been able to sort of speak truth to power and say what the facts are, rather than what the spin is coming out of the vice president, the president, Ambassador Birx, Surgeon General Adams and the rest.
AMY GOODMAN: Amy Kapczynski, so I’m going to leave it to you to define these neoliberal policies that you have said have worsened this pandemic and the effect of it in the United States, and to lay out what our system is today. Now insurance companies that say they will not only not charge for testing, but not charge for treatment, are called heroes in a private system, but afterwards will immediately increase people’s insurance costs. What is a New Deal for public health? But begin on the issue of neoliberal policies.
AMY KAPCZYNSKI: Sure. So, neoliberalism is commonly defined by scholars as a kind of political movement that in fact sought to change our — the relationship between, effectively, kind of the market and democracy. So, people often think of it as coming to prominence in the 1980s and the 1990s, think of the Reagan and Thatcher programs and the Washington Consensus as key pillars of neoliberal policy approaches. So, they demand, for example, deregulation, the starving of the state, the expansion of the profit motive to more and more parts of society, and the organization of more and more parts of society according to market logic, right? So, deregulation, privatization and the priority given to markets over society and over people.
So, with that sort of in mind, I think it’s pretty clear to see how we have built not only a healthcare system, but also a system of work, for example — right? — where there’s no sick pay for so many millions of Americans, they can’t stay home when they’re sick — that’s driven by a profit logic, right? That’s driven by an extractive idea about how business should relate to human beings. And it’s one that underlines the health of all of us, right? Because if people — as everyone’s become really aware of at this moment, if people can’t stay home when they’re sick, then none of us can be protected from things like the coronavirus — right? — and many things beyond that. So, that kind of profit logic, the same logic that starved the state — right? — that has — you know, one of the things we talk about in our piece is the way that public health has been underfunded and the way that Donald Trump is like the apotheosis of this, right? He says at some point in one of these early press conferences that he didn’t want a lot of people sitting around preparing for epidemics because that was kind of wasted overhead, right? I mean, that kind of logic is what leaves us unprepared to deal with these deep structural vulnerabilities and to deal with crisis. And that’s really where we’re at. We don’t have the resources to hand. We don’t have the institutions that we need to get care and money to people quickly. And we don’t have ways to support people to do what our society needs us all to do right now, which is to stay home and take care of one another by staying home and engaging in social distancing.
So, what does a new system look like? Well, one of the key pillars, I think, of a New Deal for public health, as Gregg and I see it, is of course something like Medicare for All, so that we need people to be able to access care in this country without concern that they’re going to go bankrupt — right? — which is what so many people face today, and we need to extend the circle of care to everyone, so that we’re all protected and so that we can all then be connected in this circle of care.
So, beyond that, of course, there are things like sick pay and rights for workers. You know, I think you’re going to see that places that give workers rights are going to deal better, and they’re going to contribute more, to our [inaudible] than places that treat them as disposable. So we need more power for workers. We need more sick pay. We need an expansion of the welfare state to keep people in a position where they can do not just the productive work of our society, but the reproductive work — right? — the caring for one another, which is what we’re all doing right now, staying home, caring for one another. And that just doesn’t count in most measures of the economy, right? Staying home doesn’t count. Staying home is not productive in the way that people ordinarily think about the economy. And the system of kind of neoliberal economics that we’ve been given is one that systematically exploits the kind of care that we give her one another, that’s unpaid, and that doesn’t provide us with the resources that we need to kind of reproduce ourselves as a society. So, we need those resources.
We also need to roll back the carceral state — right? — that is spending extraordinary sums and putting people in extraordinary grave danger even in ordinary times — right? — and providing us with none of the things that we really need to be able to address the underlying causes of things like crime in our society. So, all of those pieces together, along with a recognition that in fact the economy is something that we build, we build it together — and we need to build an economy that is worthy of the society that we want to live in, rather than one that treats people as disposable and that kind of exploits our planet and also our forms of care in the way that this one does today.
AMY GOODMAN: And finally, Gregg Gonsalves, where does Medicare for All fit into this picture? How do you see it saving the lives of not only the most vulnerable, but of everyone?
GREGG GONSALVES: So, it’s interesting. There’s a piece in the Times today by Emmanuel Saez and Gabriel Zucman from Berkeley that talk about COVID Care for All. And I think we’re talking — I think that the neologism is interesting, because this is what has brought us to this brink. The failure of care in the United States, which is not recapitulated anywhere else in the industrialized world, has led us to a point where — depends on who you are whether you’re going to get sick or whether you’re going to get well, whether you’re going to get infected with coronavirus or you’re not going to get infected with the coronavirus. So, unless we take care of each other from coast to coast, from north to south, east to west, we’re going to be vulnerable as the — we are all as vulnerable as the most vulnerable person in our society. And so, unless undocumented immigrants, unless the incarcerated, unless the homeless are brought into the circle of care, with healthcare universally accessible across the United States, there will always be somebody who’s going to get sick who could be the spark that sets off the next epidemic.
AMY GOODMAN: Gregg Gonsalves and Amy Kapczynski, there’s so much more to talk about. We will link to your pieces. Both at Yale, Yale University, Gregg Gonsalves is an epidemiologist at the Yale School of Public Health. They are co-directors of the Global Health Justice Partnership.
When we come back, we look at how more than 100,000 homeless people, from New York to Los Angeles to Oakland, are at great risk as this pandemic spreads. When political leaders say shelter at home, what about when you don’t have a home? Stay with us.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: “Ojitos Verdes,” “Little Green Eyes,” performed via video conference by Maríachi Escandon of Roma Middle School in the border town of Roma, Texas, in the midst of this pandemic.


democracynow--2020-03-30--Headlines for March 30, 2020

Headlines for March 30, 2020

The death toll from the COVID-19 pandemic is nearing 35,000 around the world as confirmed cases have now risen to over 730,000 .
The United States continues to lead in coronavirus cases with over 143,000 known infections — though the true number is certain to be much higher — and over 2,500 deaths .
On Sunday , Trump walked back earlier statements about lifting social distancing advisories by Easter , instead extending the government guidelines through the end of April .
He said the peak death rate is likely two weeks from now .
Dr. Anthony Fauci , head of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Diseases , warned coronavirus could kill up to 200,000 Americans but that any estimate was still a “ moving target.
” Trump addressed the possible U.S. death toll while speaking at his Sunday press briefing .
President Donald Trump : “ So you ’ re talking about 2.2 million deaths , 2.2 million people , from this .
And so , if we could hold that down , as we ’ re saying , to 100,000 — it ’ s a horrible number — maybe even less , but to 100,000 — so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we , all together , have done a very good job.
” The 2.2 million figure comes from one projection model if no measures were put in place to slow down the spread of the virus .
Trump also boasted about his TV ratings and attacked PBS News reporter Yamiche Alcindor .
President Donald Trump : “ Excuse me , you didn ’ t hear me .
That ’ s why you used to work for the Times , and now you work for somebody else .
Look , let me tell you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ continue to issue dire warnings about the severe lack of medical equipment , Trump ordered General Motors Friday to produce 40,000 ventilators under the Defense Production Act .
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention issued new travel advisories for New York , New Jersey and Connecticut , urging people to “ refrain from non-essential domestic travel.
” Trump previously said he would impose a quarantine on the tri-state area , which some state officials said was not in his purview .

The death toll from the COVID-19 pandemic is nearing 35,000 around the world as confirmed cases have now risen to over 730,000. The United States continues to lead in coronavirus cases with over 143,000 known infections — though the true number is certain to be much higher — and over 2,500 deaths.
On Sunday, Trump walked back earlier statements about lifting social distancing advisories by Easter, instead extending the government guidelines through the end of April. He said the peak death rate is likely two weeks from now.
Dr. Anthony Fauci, head of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, warned coronavirus could kill up to 200,000 Americans but that any estimate was still a “moving target.” Trump addressed the possible U.S. death toll while speaking at his Sunday press briefing.
President Donald Trump: “So you’re talking about 2.2 million deaths, 2.2 million people, from this. And so, if we could hold that down, as we’re saying, to 100,000 — it’s a horrible number — maybe even less, but to 100,000 — so we have between 100,000 to 200,000, we, all together, have done a very good job.”
The 2.2 million figure comes from one projection model if no measures were put in place to slow down the spread of the virus.
Trump also boasted about his TV ratings and attacked PBS News reporter Yamiche Alcindor.
Yamiche Alcindor: “You said repeatedly that you think that some of the equipment that governors are requesting, they don’t actually need. You said New York might not need 30,000” —
President Donald Trump: “I didn’t say that. I didn’t say that.”
Yamiche Alcindor: “You said it on Sean Hannity’s Fox News.”
President Donald Trump: “I didn’t say that. Come on. Come on.”
Yamiche Alcindor: “You said that you might” —
President Donald Trump: “You know, why don’t — why don’t you people act — let me ask you” —
Yamiche Alcindor: “You said some states” —
President Donald Trump: “Why don’t you act — why don’t you act in a little more positive — it’s always trying to get you.”
Yamiche Alcindor: “My question to you is” —
President Donald Trump: “Get you, get you. And you know what? That’s why nobody trusts the media anymore. That’s why people” —
Yamiche Alcindor: “My question to you is: How is that going to impact” —
President Donald Trump: “Excuse me, you didn’t hear me. That’s why you used to work for the Times, and now you work for somebody else. Look, let me tell you something: Be nice.”
Yamiche Alcindor: “Mr. President, my question is” —
President Donald Trump: “Don’t be threatening. Don’t be threatening.”
As states continue to issue dire warnings about the severe lack of medical equipment, Trump ordered General Motors Friday to produce 40,000 ventilators under the Defense Production Act. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention issued new travel advisories for New York, New Jersey and Connecticut, urging people to “refrain from non-essential domestic travel.” Trump previously said he would impose a quarantine on the tri-state area, which some state officials said was not in his purview.


democracynow--2020-03-27--When Home Isn't Safe: Shelter-in-Place Is Putting Domestic Violence Survivors in a "Dire Situation"

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
, democracynow.org , The War and Peace Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman , broadcasting from New York City , now the center of the pandemic in the United States .
Shelter in place ?
What happens when you ’ re trapped at home with your abuser ?
We turn now to look at domestic violence during the pandemic .
As schools shut , public spaces close , all but essential workers are ordered to stay @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to help vulnerable people navigate home lives they say are increasingly unsafe during the pandemic .
More than one in three women in the U.S. has experienced rape , physical violence or stalking by an intimate partner , according to a 2010 survey .
In 2018 , more than half the violent crimes in the U.S. were domestic violence cases .
We end with Katie Ray-Jones , chief executive officer of the National Domestic Violence Hotline and loveisrespect .
She ’ s joining us from Austin , Texas .
Thanks so much for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Talk about what you ’ re experiencing now on the National Domestic Violence Hotline .
What are your greatest concerns during this pandemic , where so many are shut in , are locked down in their homes around the country ?
KATIE RAY-JONES : Yeah , good morning .
Yeah , absolutely .
I think you ’ re speaking very much to the crux of what we ’ re most concerned with right now .
We know that many victims and survivors of domestic violence are currently sheltering in place with their abusive @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hear from many survivors who are explaining to us about how COVID-19 is impacting their relationship , how abuse is beginning to escalate in the home , or how they ’ re being further isolated from their social networks , their social support systems , employment , financial impact .
It ’ s quite a scary situation for many women across the country .
AMY GOODMAN : So , what are you hearing ?
What do you tell people ?
What can you suggest to those who are terrified at home right now @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in place.
” It ’ s hardly a shelter .
KATIE RAY-JONES : Yeah , I mean , you make a really great point .
This is really a dire situation for a lot of victims across the country .
What we ’ ve been hearing is that we have had situations where the survivor is trying to leave , but shelters are currently not doing intakes , or they ’ re full .
They can not go to their family members or their friends ’ houses in fear of exposure .
Certainly @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they ’ re not wanting to go and take their children over there .
We ’ re really hearing a lot of scary stories about how one woman was being prevented to go to work .
She wasn ’ t in a community where there was a shelter in place .
And her partner brought out a firearm and began to load the firearm as a method to keep her in the home .
And she said that had never happened before .
This was the first time she had seen something like @ @ @ @ @ @ @ heard from women who ended up calling 911 , and that when police came out , they said that these were low violent crimes , and they weren ’ t in a position to detain the abusive partner .
And so that ’ s a scary situation for a lot of survivors .
What we ’ re really hoping to do right now , recognizing that it is going to be very difficult for a survivor to call a hotline when their perpetrator is sitting right next to them , or to be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with an advocate when their abusive partner is watching what they ’ re doing — there could be serious consequences for a survivor in those situations .
So we ’ re imploring friends , family , neighbors to contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline on behalf of someone else , because you may be their only lifeline to education , safety information , while we ’ re working through situations where people can ’ t flee the home .
AMY GOODMAN : And what ’ s happening to emergency shelters right now for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I think we ’ re seeing an array of different strategies being used , which I think it makes it really difficult for survivors to know what their options are .
One , we ’ re hearing some shelters are still operating and putting in a lot of procedures to keep their current residents safe and healthy .
Some are using motels and hotels to be able to place people in emergency situations .
But we know many nonprofits , on a good day , are underresourced and don ’ t have a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and motels for those expenses .
Some are not doing intakes right now , in order to keep their current residents healthy , safe .
And some are just at capacity .
So what we ’ re doing is , as survivors are calling us , we ’ re working with those local communities to try to place them .
We had a pastor who called us yesterday trying to get shelter for a victim and had looked in two different states and wasn ’ t being successful in finding a location for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ these are really dire .
So , unfortunately , we ’ re doing a lot of safety planning in-place strategies .
We ’ re talking with survivors about , if a fight breaks out , a violent incident breaks out in the home , where ’ s the safest place to move in the home .
Can you take time for yourself , whether it ’ s a shower , journaling , taking just a quiet moment to be able to gather your strength , recognizing that you are courageous , you ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , you ’ re surviving every day ?
But there ’ s not a lot of resources out there right now , Amy , for people to actually get connected to .
AMY GOODMAN : I want to thank you so much , Katie Ray-Jones , for being with us , chief executive officer of the National Domestic Violence Hotline .
And the number of that hotline ?
KATIE RAY-JONES : 1-800-799-7233 , or you can chat at thehotline.org .
AMY GOODMAN : We want to thank you so much .
AMY GOODMAN @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in protecting the whole community , it is so critical that in order not to wash our hands of all of this , we simply wash our hands .
When you see somebody and you ’ re afraid to step away , because you don ’ t want them to feel like you ’ re afraid of them , don ’ t think of them as the vector of disease .
Think of yourself as possibly one who could infect others , because we can ’ t know at this point .
Step @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to make the whole community safe .
And when you wash your hands , to understand why this is so important , is just simple water and soap .
I know for many , it is not even possible to get that water .
But if you have access and soap , soap is critical .
It is the most important weapon , because the coronavirus — corona is the crown on the virus , which is a lipid , and the soap cuts through that .
Wash your hands for at least @ @ @ @ @ @ @ see doctors on TV shows washing their hands and then putting their arms up ?
This is the way to do it .
Sing “ Happy Birthday ” twice , if you want to .
But you ’ ve got to scrub those hands .
You ’ ve got to interlace your fingers and scrub .
Scrub your fingertips , you know , that touches , oh , everything from buttons to elevator buttons , everything else .
Wash the back and the front of your hands .
You ’ re doing it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it for your family , you ’ re doing it for the whole community to stop community spread .
We have to keep each other safe in this very dire time of this pandemic .
That does it for the show .
I want to thank the amazing team that makes Democracy Now !
happen every day , so many of us working from home in isolation to protect everyone else , and the team that comes in to do this broadcast .
And also a belated birthday , happy wishes to Miriam @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Mike Burke , Deena Guzder , Nermeen Shaikh , Carla Wills , Tami Woronoff , Libby Rainey , Sam Alcoff , John Hamilton , Robby Karran .
Special thanks to Julie Crosby .
I ’ m Amy Goodman .
Thank you so much .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman, broadcasting from New York City, now the center of the pandemic in the United States.
Shelter in place? What happens when you’re trapped at home with your abuser? We turn now to look at domestic violence during the pandemic. As schools shut, public spaces close, all but essential workers are ordered to stay indoors, domestic violence services are scrambling to help vulnerable people navigate home lives they say are increasingly unsafe during the pandemic. More than one in three women in the U.S. has experienced rape, physical violence or stalking by an intimate partner, according to a 2010 survey. In 2018, more than half the violent crimes in the U.S. were domestic violence cases.
We end with Katie Ray-Jones, chief executive officer of the National Domestic Violence Hotline and loveisrespect. She’s joining us from Austin, Texas.
Thanks so much for being with us, Katie Ray-Jones. Talk about what you’re experiencing now on the National Domestic Violence Hotline. What are your greatest concerns during this pandemic, where so many are shut in, are locked down in their homes around the country?
KATIE RAY-JONES: Yeah, good morning. Yeah, absolutely. I think you’re speaking very much to the crux of what we’re most concerned with right now. We know that many victims and survivors of domestic violence are currently sheltering in place with their abusive partner, and we have started to hear from many survivors who are explaining to us about how COVID-19 is impacting their relationship, how abuse is beginning to escalate in the home, or how they’re being further isolated from their social networks, their social support systems, employment, financial impact. It’s quite a scary situation for many women across the country.
AMY GOODMAN: So, what are you hearing? What do you tell people? What can you suggest to those who are terrified at home right now? We say the words “shelter in place.” It’s hardly a shelter.
KATIE RAY-JONES: Yeah, I mean, you make a really great point. This is really a dire situation for a lot of victims across the country. What we’ve been hearing is that we have had situations where the survivor is trying to leave, but shelters are currently not doing intakes, or they’re full. They cannot go to their family members or their friends’ houses in fear of exposure. Certainly, if their parents are elderly, they’re not wanting to go and take their children over there. We’re really hearing a lot of scary stories about how one woman was being prevented to go to work. She wasn’t in a community where there was a shelter in place. And her partner brought out a firearm and began to load the firearm as a method to keep her in the home. And she said that had never happened before. This was the first time she had seen something like this escalate. We’ve also heard from women who ended up calling 911, and that when police came out, they said that these were low violent crimes, and they weren’t in a position to detain the abusive partner. And so that’s a scary situation for a lot of survivors.
What we’re really hoping to do right now, recognizing that it is going to be very difficult for a survivor to call a hotline when their perpetrator is sitting right next to them, or to be able to enter into an online chat with an advocate when their abusive partner is watching what they’re doing — there could be serious consequences for a survivor in those situations. So we’re imploring friends, family, neighbors to contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline on behalf of someone else, because you may be their only lifeline to education, safety information, while we’re working through situations where people can’t flee the home.
AMY GOODMAN: And what’s happening to emergency shelters right now for domestic violence victims?
KATIE RAY-JONES: I think we’re seeing an array of different strategies being used, which I think it makes it really difficult for survivors to know what their options are. One, we’re hearing some shelters are still operating and putting in a lot of procedures to keep their current residents safe and healthy. Some are using motels and hotels to be able to place people in emergency situations. But we know many nonprofits, on a good day, are underresourced and don’t have a lot of financial resources to leverage hotels and motels for those expenses. Some are not doing intakes right now, in order to keep their current residents healthy, safe. And some are just at capacity.
So what we’re doing is, as survivors are calling us, we’re working with those local communities to try to place them. We had a pastor who called us yesterday trying to get shelter for a victim and had looked in two different states and wasn’t being successful in finding a location for that individual. So we know that these are really dire. So, unfortunately, we’re doing a lot of safety planning in-place strategies. We’re talking with survivors about, if a fight breaks out, a violent incident breaks out in the home, where’s the safest place to move in the home. Can you take time for yourself, whether it’s a shower, journaling, taking just a quiet moment to be able to gather your strength, recognizing that you are courageous, you’re strong, you’re brave, you’re surviving every day? But there’s not a lot of resources out there right now, Amy, for people to actually get connected to.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to thank you so much, Katie Ray-Jones, for being with us, chief executive officer of the National Domestic Violence Hotline. And the number of that hotline?
KATIE RAY-JONES: 1-800-799-7233, or you can chat at thehotline.org.
AMY GOODMAN: We want to thank you so much.
KATIE RAY-JONES: Thank you.
AMY GOODMAN: And this word of advice, in protecting the whole community, it is so critical that in order not to wash our hands of all of this, we simply wash our hands. When you see somebody and you’re afraid to step away, because you don’t want them to feel like you’re afraid of them, don’t think of them as the vector of disease. Think of yourself as possibly one who could infect others, because we can’t know at this point. Step away. Be at a safe distance to make the whole community safe. And when you wash your hands, to understand why this is so important, is just simple water and soap. I know for many, it is not even possible to get that water. But if you have access and soap, soap is critical. It is the most important weapon, because the coronavirus — corona is the crown on the virus, which is a lipid, and the soap cuts through that. Wash your hands for at least 20 seconds. You know how you see doctors on TV shows washing their hands and then putting their arms up? This is the way to do it. Sing “Happy Birthday” twice, if you want to. But you’ve got to scrub those hands. You’ve got to interlace your fingers and scrub. Scrub your fingertips, you know, that touches, oh, everything from buttons to elevator buttons, everything else. Wash the back and the front of your hands. You’re doing it for yourself, you’re doing it for your family, you’re doing it for the whole community to stop community spread. We have to keep each other safe in this very dire time of this pandemic.
That does it for the show. I want to thank the amazing team that makes Democracy Now! happen every day, so many of us working from home in isolation to protect everyone else, and the team that comes in to do this broadcast. And also a belated birthday, happy wishes to Miriam Barnard.
Democracy Now! produced by Mike Burke, Deena Guzder, Nermeen Shaikh, Carla Wills, Tami Woronoff, Libby Rainey, Sam Alcoff, John Hamilton, Robby Karran. Special thanks to Julie Crosby. I’m Amy Goodman. Thank you so much.


democracynow--2020-03-27--"Total System Failure": Congress Pushes $2 Trillion Pandemic Bill. Will Dems Allow "Corporate Coup"?

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
I ’ m Amy Goodman .
We ’ re broadcasting from the epicenter of the pandemic in the United States , from New York City , as we continue our look at the massive $ 2 trillion coronavirus relief package , the largest stimulus bill in U.S. history , with a guest who argues the country will be unrecognizable after this pandemic if big corporations walk away with trillions of dollars and no strings attached .
Joining @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , as so many guests are representing , are self-isolating in their homes to protect the larger community and themselves .
Matt Stoller , research director at the American Economic Liberties Project , author of the book _Goliath : The 100-Year War Between Monopoly Power and Democracy.
” His column for The Guardian is headlined “ The coronavirus relief bill could turn into a corporate coup if we aren ’ t careful.
” So , the House is clearly passing this unprecedented $ 2.2 trillion bill today .
Matt , what are your @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I mean , it ’ s not really a $ 2 trillion bill .
It ’ s more like a $ 6 trillion to $ 10 trillion bill .
So , one of the reasons you can tell that the bill is packed with corporate goodies is that , you know , Congress is debating and trying to figure out , oh , you know , is it $ 2 trillion , a bunch of money for hospitals or money for cities , and meanwhile , a couple days ago , Larry Kudlow @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , “ Actually , this is a $ 6 trillion bill.
” And it ’ s like , how does a bill go from $ 2 trillion to $ 6 trillion without anyone really noticing ?
And the answer is , there ’ s a bunch of stuff in there — and , you know , there are people on Wall Street chattering about how it ’ s actually going to be $ 10 trillion , because , you know , what ’ s another four ?
And that ’ s how you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with stuff for Wall Street , for large monopolists .
And it ’ s done through a variety of opaque slush funds — the Federal Reserve , the FDIC guarantees a bank debt .
There ’ s a whole bunch of stuff that , you know , some of us who worked in the financial crisis noticed , paid attention to , said , “ Oh , that ’ s where they ’ re stealing all the money.
” And so there ’ s a bunch of stuff in there that ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , that we know about , has been reported .
There ’ s also a bunch of stuff that ’ s going to get to the hedge fund guys that are bunkering down in their underground wine caves or whatever .
And meanwhile , the stuff that we need , for normal people — the ventilators , the unemployment — you know , that ’ s going to dribble out .
Small business is going to dribble out .
And so , what you ’ re going to see is the $ 4 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 8 trillion of basically no-cost or low-cost guaranteed credit is going to be used by Citibank , JPMorgan , and then any big monopolist or large company that can get access to it , to buy up their competitors and buy up small business , who are obviously now in a really distressed state because they don ’ t have any revenue .
So that ’ s what ’ s going to happen .
And I look forward to all of the progressives who are supporting this , like Congresswoman Ilhan Omar , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ all the wealth that they are right now transferring to Wall Street .
That will be fun .
AMY GOODMAN : CNBC ’ s Jim Cramer said last Friday the economic downturn from the pandemic could leave the United States with just three retailers after the crisis ends .
AMY GOODMAN : This is what he said .
AMY GOODMAN : So , Matt Stoller , if you can respond to what Cramer said ?
While President Trump stands at the White House podium saying , “ We ’ re spending much more @ @ @ @ @ @ @ business , ” he didn ’ t say , “ We ’ re spending much more money concerned about small business than big business.
” MATT STOLLER : I don ’ t think that this is actually — I don ’ t want to leave this on Trump .
Honestly , this is the fault of the Democrats , this is the fault of Nancy Pelosi , it ’ s the fault of members like Ilhan Omar , who just spoke about this , not paying attention to what ’ s in the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of Bernie Sanders .
It ’ s the fault of Elizabeth Warren .
These are the people that had leverage , that had the ability to make an argument about what this bill is .
And instead of saying that this bill is a handout to corporate America and a roll-up of power , they decided to stay quiet , let Chuck Schumer organize the whole process , you know , and do some moral grandstanding .
And it ’ s really embarrassing , and it ’ s really a problem , because @ @ @ @ @ @ @ movement , they ’ re lying to the Democratic Party .
And so now we have no debate about what is effectively probably a more significant bill than TARP in 2008 .
And all of this stuff that ’ s happening , the handover of power to Wall Street , is happening under the really cynical guise of helping people in a pandemic .
A lot of this money is going to go to — some of the money is going to go to hospitals .
Some of the money is going to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
So there ’ s some good stuff here .
That , of course , is going to dribble out on the rickety infrastructure of the Small Business Administration and unemployment insurance .
Our government has been hollowed out , so this stuff isn ’ t going to get out quickly , but — quickly enough .
But I think we really have to take some responsibility as Democrats — I ’ m a Democrat — as progressives , as conservatives , as Republicans .
You know , this is a total system @ @ @ @ @ @ @ power to Wall Street .
And in a month or two or three , people are going to get confused .
They ’ re going to say , “ Wait a second .
Why isn ’ t this working ?
What ’ s happening ?
” And like , this is the moment .
The moment was this week , when the House and Senate are voting on it .
And you have a whole bunch of largely clueless , either stupid , corrupt or cowardly members , who won ’ t actually @ @ @ @ @ @ @ bill , won ’ t organize , won ’ t think about it , won ’ t debate .
And so they ’ ve handed over — you know , I didn ’ t think that Bernie Sanders was going to hand the country over to big business , but that is effectively what he did .
I didn ’ t think Elizabeth Warren was going to do that , but that is effectively what she did .
AMY GOODMAN : You ’ re attributing a lot of power to them .
MATT @ @ @ @ @ @ @ here was about the public debate .
Last week , when Mitch McConnell was coming up with a bill — you know , and I wrote about this , but others wrote about it — AMY GOODMAN : Not including the Democrats in this .
MATT STOLLER : Well , yeah , but the Democrats didn ’ t make an argument about what was in that bill .
They said , “ Oh , OK , trillions of dollars for Wall Street , sure , we ’ ll call that pandemic relief , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s trillions of dollars for Wall Street .
What we need is immediate pandemic relief.
” Instead , they conceded to Mitch McConnell and Steve Mnuchin that giving a trillion , $ 2 trillion , $ 3 trillion , $ 4 trillion to Wall Street was pandemic relief .
And that ’ s just nonsense .
And even today they ’ re not saying what is in this bill .
They don ’ t even know that the bill is $ 6 trillion versus $ 2 trillion .
I mean , the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Now , I could see them saying , “ Yeah , you know , it is a $ 6 trillion bill ” — I mean , I ’ ll also say , I have to — you know , we have to get money out to hospitals .
We have to get money out to small business .
We have to get money out to ordinary people that are suffering right now .
It ’ s a real — we have to do it .
And it will happen .
If the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ bill , then , you know , Mitch McConnell and Mnuchin and Kevin McCarthy and Trump would have had no choice but to accept any deal that the Democrats put on the table .
AMY GOODMAN : Well , let me play presidential candidate Bernie Sanders speaking Wednesday night about the unprecedented , well , more than $ 2 trillion emergency relief bill .
AMY GOODMAN : So , Matt Stoller , that ’ s Bernie Sanders .
I also want to ask about the 0 % interest loans , then buy bonds @ @ @ @ @ @ @ % interest .
Who gets to do this ?
MATT STOLLER : So , first of all , that $ 500 billion that Bernie was talking about , it ’ s actually more like $ 4.5 trillion .
So , just an FYI .
If you have — basically , if you have an account at a large bank , if you ’ re a wealthy investor like Goldman Sachs , there ’ s a whole set of programs that you can get access to at the Federal Reserve — at least this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Fed says they ’ re setting up similar structures — where you can borrow from the Fed , and you can gamble with it .
And then , if you lose — right ?
— in your gambling , then the Fed will — you don ’ t have to pay the loan back to the Fed .
So , that ’ s one of the — you know , and this is one of the programs they say , “ Oh , we need to provide liquidity in the markets , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ things that sound like — you kind of go to sleep when you ’ re like , “ Oh , all these alphabet soup programs and all this kind of jargon.
” But that ’ s really what it is .
It ’ s just , you know , “ heads , I win ; tails , you lose.
” And that ’ s a lot of what these programs are .
I mean , the Fed has already hired BlackRock , which is one of the world ’ s largest asset managers @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and they ’ ve said that BlackRock is going to be allowed to participate in the bailout .
So they ’ re running the bailout , and they ’ re participating in the bailout .
They ’ re already stealing , before the vote , the bill has even passed the House .
I mean , this is just like , for most of — for a lot of us who worked in the financial crisis , this is just embarrassing .
It ’ s a bad joke to watch it go through @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in power .
And I ’ m sorry , but Bernie Sanders getting up and grandstanding about an unemployment provision that he didn ’ t negotiate , that was going to die anyway , that ’ s embarrassing , and it ’ s dishonest , and he shouldn ’ t lie to his supporters like that .
AMY GOODMAN : Well , Matt Stoller , we ’ re going to do a post-show with you and continue the discussion and particularly look at something that no one is paying attention to in the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ issue of a decision around — the Supreme Court making around Comcast and racial discrimination .
AMY GOODMAN : You ’ ve written a lot about this .
But we ’ ll do that and post it at democracynow.org .
Matt Stoller , research director at the American Economic Liberties Project , author of the book Goliath : The 100-Year War Between Monopoly Power and Democracy .
When we come back , we ’ ll look at what sheltering in place means when you ’ re forced to stay with your abuser .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ That ’ s Andrew David singing Leonard Cohen ’ s “ Hallelujah ” to the empty streets of Chicago in a video shared on social media .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now! I’m Amy Goodman. We’re broadcasting from the epicenter of the pandemic in the United States, from New York City, as we continue our look at the massive $2 trillion coronavirus relief package, the largest stimulus bill in U.S. history, with a guest who argues the country will be unrecognizable after this pandemic if big corporations walk away with trillions of dollars and no strings attached. Joining us via video stream is Matt Stoller, as so many guests are representing, are self-isolating in their homes to protect the larger community and themselves. Matt Stoller, research director at the American Economic Liberties Project, author of the book _Goliath: The 100-Year War Between Monopoly Power and Democracy.” His column for The Guardian is headlined “The coronavirus relief bill could turn into a corporate coup if we aren’t careful.”
So, the House is clearly passing this unprecedented $2.2 trillion bill today. Matt, what are your concerns?
MATT STOLLER: Well, I mean, it’s not really a $2 trillion bill. It’s more like a $6 trillion to $10 trillion bill. So, one of the reasons you can tell that the bill is packed with corporate goodies is that, you know, Congress is debating and trying to figure out, oh, you know, is it $2 trillion, a bunch of money for hospitals or money for cities, and meanwhile, a couple days ago, Larry Kudlow is on a press conference and says, “Actually, this is a $6 trillion bill.” And it’s like, how does a bill go from $2 trillion to $6 trillion without anyone really noticing? And the answer is, there’s a bunch of stuff in there — and, you know, there are people on Wall Street chattering about how it’s actually going to be $10 trillion, because, you know, what’s another four? And that’s how you know that the bill is just packed with stuff for Wall Street, for large monopolists.
And it’s done through a variety of opaque slush funds — the Federal Reserve, the FDIC guarantees a bank debt. There’s a whole bunch of stuff that, you know, some of us who worked in the financial crisis noticed, paid attention to, said, “Oh, that’s where they’re stealing all the money.” And so there’s a bunch of stuff in there that’s going to get to Boeing and airlines, that we know about, has been reported. There’s also a bunch of stuff that’s going to get to the hedge fund guys that are bunkering down in their underground wine caves or whatever. And meanwhile, the stuff that we need, for normal people — the ventilators, the unemployment — you know, that’s going to dribble out. Small business is going to dribble out.
And so, what you’re going to see is the $4 trillion to $6 trillion to $8 trillion of basically no-cost or low-cost guaranteed credit is going to be used by Citibank, JPMorgan, and then any big monopolist or large company that can get access to it, to buy up their competitors and buy up small business, who are obviously now in a really distressed state because they don’t have any revenue. So that’s what’s going to happen. And I look forward to all of the progressives who are supporting this, like Congresswoman Ilhan Omar, supporting a wealth tax later on for all the wealth that they are right now transferring to Wall Street. That will be fun.
AMY GOODMAN: CNBC’s Jim Cramer said last Friday the economic downturn from the pandemic could leave the United States with just three retailers after the crisis ends.
MATT STOLLER: That’s right.
AMY GOODMAN: This is what he said.
JIM CRAMER: We come out of this sooner, then other small businesses can open. If we come out of this later, David, there’s going to be three retailers in this country. There’s going to be Amazon, there’s going to be Walmart, and there’s going to be Costco. And that is something that the government cannot afford to have happen.
AMY GOODMAN: So, Matt Stoller, if you can respond to what Cramer said? While President Trump stands at the White House podium saying, “We’re spending much more time concerned about small business than big business,” he didn’t say, “We’re spending much more money concerned about small business than big business.”
MATT STOLLER: I don’t think that this is actually — I don’t want to leave this on Trump. Honestly, this is the fault of the Democrats, this is the fault of Nancy Pelosi, it’s the fault of members like Ilhan Omar, who just spoke about this, not paying attention to what’s in the bill. It’s the fault of Bernie Sanders. It’s the fault of Elizabeth Warren. These are the people that had leverage, that had the ability to make an argument about what this bill is. And instead of saying that this bill is a handout to corporate America and a roll-up of power, they decided to stay quiet, let Chuck Schumer organize the whole process, you know, and do some moral grandstanding. And it’s really embarrassing, and it’s really a problem, because they’re lying to the progressive movement, they’re lying to the Democratic Party. And so now we have no debate about what is effectively probably a more significant bill than TARP in 2008.
And all of this stuff that’s happening, the handover of power to Wall Street, is happening under the really cynical guise of helping people in a pandemic. A lot of this money is going to go to — some of the money is going to go to hospitals. Some of the money is going to go to help people in the pandemic. So there’s some good stuff here. That, of course, is going to dribble out on the rickety infrastructure of the Small Business Administration and unemployment insurance. Our government has been hollowed out, so this stuff isn’t going to get out quickly, but — quickly enough.
But I think we really have to take some responsibility as Democrats — I’m a Democrat — as progressives, as conservatives, as Republicans. You know, this is a total system failure. This is a handover of power to Wall Street. And in a month or two or three, people are going to get confused. They’re going to say, “Wait a second. Why isn’t this working? What’s happening?” And like, this is the moment. The moment was this week, when the House and Senate are voting on it. And you have a whole bunch of largely clueless, either stupid, corrupt or cowardly members, who won’t actually look at what’s in the bill, won’t organize, won’t think about it, won’t debate. And so they’ve handed over — you know, I didn’t think that Bernie Sanders was going to hand the country over to big business, but that is effectively what he did. I didn’t think Elizabeth Warren was going to do that, but that is effectively what she did.
AMY GOODMAN: You’re attributing a lot of power to them.
MATT STOLLER: Absolutely. The leverage point here was about the public debate. Last week, when Mitch McConnell was coming up with a bill — you know, and I wrote about this, but others wrote about it —
AMY GOODMAN: Not including the Democrats in this.
MATT STOLLER: Well, yeah, but the Democrats didn’t make an argument about what was in that bill. They said, “Oh, OK, trillions of dollars for Wall Street, sure, we’ll call that pandemic relief,” instead of saying, “That’s trillions of dollars for Wall Street. What we need is immediate pandemic relief.” Instead, they conceded to Mitch McConnell and Steve Mnuchin that giving a trillion, $2 trillion, $3 trillion, $4 trillion to Wall Street was pandemic relief. And that’s just nonsense. And even today they’re not saying what is in this bill. They don’t even know that the bill is $6 trillion versus $2 trillion. I mean, the whole thing is just embarrassing and dishonest. Now, I could see them saying, “Yeah, you know, it is a $6 trillion bill” — I mean, I’ll also say, I have to — you know, we have to get money out to hospitals. We have to get money out to small business. We have to get money out to ordinary people that are suffering right now. It’s a real — we have to do it. And it will happen. If the Democrats had gotten together and blocked this bill, then, you know, Mitch McConnell and Mnuchin and Kevin McCarthy and Trump would have had no choice but to accept any deal that the Democrats put on the table.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, let me play presidential candidate Bernie Sanders speaking Wednesday night about the unprecedented, well, more than $2 trillion emergency relief bill.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS: I am very, very, very concerned about a $500 billion that will go out to the corporate world without — let me underline, without — the accountability and transparency that is needed. We do not need, at this moment in history, to provide a massive amount of corporate welfare to large profitable corporations. I think as many of you are aware, you have industry like the — industries like the airlines industry, among others, that have provided for stock buybacks, billions and billions of dollars for stock buybacks. They spent all their cash rewarding themselves and their stockholders. And lo and behold, today they need a major bailout.
So, the concern here is: A, do we trust the Trump administration to effectively decide which company will get the loans or the grants? The answer is, no, I do not. Do we think that these loans and grants during a political season will be used to benefit the president’s election prospects? Absolutely, I do.
AMY GOODMAN: So, Matt Stoller, that’s Bernie Sanders. I also want to ask about the 0% interest loans, then buy bonds and stocks that yield 2 to 6% interest. Who gets to do this?
MATT STOLLER: So, first of all, that $500 billion that Bernie was talking about, it’s actually more like $4.5 trillion. So, just an FYI.
If you have — basically, if you have an account at a large bank, if you’re a wealthy investor like Goldman Sachs, there’s a whole set of programs that you can get access to at the Federal Reserve — at least this was the case in 2008, and the Fed says they’re setting up similar structures — where you can borrow from the Fed, and you can gamble with it. And then, if you lose — right? — in your gambling, then the Fed will — you don’t have to pay the loan back to the Fed. So, that’s one of the — you know, and this is one of the programs they say, “Oh, we need to provide liquidity in the markets,” or various other really super boring things that sound like — you kind of go to sleep when you’re like, “Oh, all these alphabet soup programs and all this kind of jargon.” But that’s really what it is. It’s just, you know, “heads, I win; tails, you lose.” And that’s a lot of what these programs are.
I mean, the Fed has already hired BlackRock, which is one of the world’s largest asset managers, to manage this multitrillion-dollar bailout, and they’ve said that BlackRock is going to be allowed to participate in the bailout. So they’re running the bailout, and they’re participating in the bailout. They’re already stealing, before the vote, the bill has even passed the House.
I mean, this is just like, for most of — for a lot of us who worked in the financial crisis, this is just embarrassing. It’s a bad joke to watch it go through with like literally no opposition from anyone in power. And I’m sorry, but Bernie Sanders getting up and grandstanding about an unemployment provision that he didn’t negotiate, that was going to die anyway, that’s embarrassing, and it’s dishonest, and he shouldn’t lie to his supporters like that.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, Matt Stoller, we’re going to do a post-show with you and continue the discussion and particularly look at something that no one is paying attention to in the coronavirus pandemic, and that is the issue of a decision around — the Supreme Court making around Comcast and racial discrimination.
MATT STOLLER: Sure.
AMY GOODMAN: You’ve written a lot about this. But we’ll do that and post it at democracynow.org. Matt Stoller, research director at the American Economic Liberties Project, author of the book Goliath: The 100-Year War Between Monopoly Power and Democracy.
When we come back, we’ll look at what sheltering in place means when you’re forced to stay with your abuser. Stay with us.
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AMY GOODMAN: That’s Andrew David singing Leonard Cohen’s “Hallelujah” to the empty streets of Chicago in a video shared on social media.