democracynow--2020-04-27--"Unconscionable": Planned Parenthood Pres. Condemns States Using Pandemic to Limit Abortion Access

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : As the coronavirus continues to spread and much of the United States remains on lockdown , abortion rights are under attack across the country .
States , including Alabama , Iowa , Louisiana , Ohio , Oklahoma , Tennessee , Texas and more , have all attempted to restrict access to abortion as part of their response to the pandemic .
Abortions in Texas were briefly effectively banned last week , after a federal appeals court ruled Monday that the state could @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the pandemic .
The Washington Post called the move “ the most extreme shutdown of abortion access allowed by federal courts since the Supreme Court ’ s 1973 Roe v. Wade decision declared access to abortion a constitutional right , ” unquote .
But Wednesday , Republican Governor Greg Abbott issued a new executive order loosening the restrictions on medical procedures and allowing abortion services to proceed .
The fight over abortion access has sparked a prolonged legal battle and for weeks forced people seeking abortions to leave the state of Texas to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a 706 % increase in abortion appointments for people crossing state lines from Texas to providers in Colorado , New Mexico and Nevada .
To look at the ongoing fight for abortion access in Texas , as well as other states , we ’ re joined by Alexis McGill Johnson , the acting president and CEO of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America .
She ’ s joining us from New York City from her home to stop community spread .
Welcome to Democracy Now !
, Alexis .
ALEXIS McGILL JOHNSON : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , Amy .
AMY GOODMAN : It ’ s great to have you with us .
Well , why don ’ t you just give us a nationwide survey of what ’ s happening to abortion access in the United States ?
ALEXIS McGILL JOHNSON : Absolutely .
Look , I mean , as you talked earlier , we ’ ve already seen how COVID has laid bare the challenges in our public healthcare infrastructure , seeing how many people , particularly low-income people of color , who are experiencing the disproportionate impact @ @ @ @ @ @ @ same time that we are all grappling with what it means to live in this pandemic , a number of governors across the country have decided that this pandemic was the right time to create executive orders to restrict more access to abortion .
And what we ’ ve seen is the impact .
We ’ ve seen people continue to get in their cars to drive thousands of miles to Colorado , to California , to New Mexico , just out of Texas , to seek access to get medication abortion , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 24 hours .
And , you know , we ’ ve been in a pushback , in a legal pushback , with a number of states , as well as with our circuit court judges , and there ’ s been an incredible emotional whiplash related to it , as our providers have been calling patients and telling them that their appointments are now canceled or that they in fact have to seek another method .
And so , this is really unconscionable , the fact that people would use a pandemic to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ fact we should be trying to identify ways to expand healthcare .
AMY GOODMAN : So , let ’ s talk , for example , about Texas , the battle that ’ s been going on in the courts — and this happens in other places , as well , in Tennessee , Alabama , Oklahoma — as the governor attempts to restrict abortion .
And what ’ s happening at the court level , one after another decisions ?
ALEXIS McGILL JOHNSON : We were in court like over four times in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ partners on the ground .
And essentially , where we are now is that the governor is trying to loosen the restriction , in fact , because he ’ s trying to open the state , which shows you that this was just a sham to begin with — right ?
— that the real concern around spreading access to — spreading COVID , using abortion as a guise for that really is not legitimate .
And so , right now we have a loosened restriction in Texas .
But there are other @ @ @ @ @ @ @ fight .
AMY GOODMAN : Can you talk about Alabama , what ’ s happening there , the preliminary injunction that treats abortion like all medical care , allowing physicians to provide abortion using their medical judgment ?
ALEXIS McGILL JOHNSON : Yes .
I mean , you know , I ’ m not — in terms of all the specifics with respect to Alabama and with Tennessee , I think , you know , it is — we ’ re using everything at our measure , in a sense , that — @ @ @ @ @ @ @ able to defend access to abortion in these various states with these executive orders coming down .
And what we ’ re trying to do is ensure that people seeking abortion get access as immediately as they can .
And so , I think when you look back in the bigger picture , what you ’ re seeing is a number of restrictions around abortion .
Just last year , there were 300 restrictions that were introduced in 47 states across the country .
And so , what we ’ re looking at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to limit access to abortion .
And when you layer a pandemic on top of that , we ’ re feeling , obviously , the impact of that .
Many states — there are five states now that are essentially abortion deserts , where it ’ s very difficult to access .
And we ’ re adding these additional restrictions on it , which makes it even more unsustainable .
AMY GOODMAN : And explain what you referred to as “ medication abortion.
” Explain — you ’ ve got the surgery , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ got the double pill .
ALEXIS McGILL JOHNSON : Yes .
Medication abortion is offered earlier in the gestational period , and it really requires just two pills that the person seeking abortion would take within a 24-hour period .
And so , this is not a procedure that requires an extensive amount of PPE .
It doesn ’ t require — you know , in many cases , we ’ re able to see a patient now , with the expansion of telehealth , via Skype , like this , intake the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that patient will come and pick up the prescription and go home and take that medication safely at home .
And then we are able to do follow-up care , again via telehealth , in much the same way that the rest of the country is operating right now on telehealth , telemedicine .
And so , you know , what we ’ re seeing is our patients are driving , again , a thousand miles .
Think about this .
Women are the majority of healthcare workers .
We ’ re the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ We are the majority of essential workers .
Our bodies have literally been deemed essential , and yet our bodies — the control of our bodies and the right to control our own bodies has not .
And so we ’ re seeing them drive thousands of miles to get two pills and then get back in a car and drive another thousand miles back home through these various states , in ways that are incredibly unsafe .
AMY GOODMAN : Alexis McGill Johnson , you co-authored a piece for Essence magazine last @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Essential , But Your Abortion Is Not : Black Low-Wage Women in Texas Are Being Robbed of Their Humanity.
” In it , you wrote , quote , “ Nonwhite women are more likely to hold jobs deemed 'essential ' than any other demographic .
… Even though your job has been deemed essential , your humanity , your ability to earn a living wage , your ability to access health care — pandemic or not — is not .
And now in the state of Texas ( and several others ) your @ @ @ @ @ @ @ up in the air for a court to decide.
” Explain the demographics that you ’ re talking about , and talk about women of color accessing abortion being even more challenged .
ALEXIS McGILL JOHNSON : Yeah , absolutely .
And I think this is really what we ’ ve seen in the public health infrastructure around COVID , right ?
We ’ ve seen just the number of deaths , right ?
COVID is touching all of us regardless of age and class and race .
And yet the folks who @ @ @ @ @ @ @ being most subjected to fatality , are largely black and Latinx in major urban areas .
And this challenge — right ?
— that our access to public healthcare infrastructure has already been challenged , and then you layer on bias , you layer on patterns and systems of discrimination over centuries , quite frankly , that have concluded , in fact , that we are — particularly women of color are the ones who are not able to get the right amount of care .
So , when you layer on other @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of income , our bodies literally are much more subject to dying during childbirth or just thereafter because of the bias built into discrimination in the system .
And when I look at these executive orders in states that are the same states that did not expand Medicaid , you know , states who have been layering on these restrictions largely for low — affecting low-income women of color , to me , it ’ s no surprise that we ’ re the ones being called in .
We ’ re the ones @ @ @ @ @ @ @ workers , and yet our ability to actually control our own bodies and to really control our own futures and freedom is being denied by the state .
AMY GOODMAN : And can you talk about the issue of women getting access , what you recommend , where access is challenged ?
I mean , even before the pandemic , the closing of women ’ s health clinics , so often you can have a situation where there ’ s only one or two in a state .
And this new service that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , offering information about sexual and reproductive health ?
ALEXIS McGILL JOHNSON : Yes , absolutely .
It is actually a silver lining in this pandemic , that Planned Parenthood and many other health providers have actually been able to really lean into telehealth infrastructure and provide service .
I think the quote was something like “ We ’ ve moved 10 years in 10 days.
” And that is actually , you know , the fact that we will be in all 50 states by the end of this month to provide @ @ @ @ @ @ @ planning , to HIV PEP and PrEP , and , in much the same way as I said , to provide some wraparound service around getting access to abortion .
That ’ s given us a lifeline into communities , particularly areas where the shelter-in-place bans are going to continue , as well as rural areas , where there may not be access to healthcare broadly .
But again , this is a silver lining for some .
And again , in many states , the challenge to — you know , COVID @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we should all have about the impact not just of Roe being overturned , but literally of watching it being gutted by these restrictions year after year after year , over the last decade , in particular .
And so , we have to think about how we ’ re going to support and how we ’ re going to get the 25 million women who live in states that are increasingly restrictive , access to safe and legal abortion , should they need it .
And that ’ s currently the planning @ @ @ @ @ @ @ now .
AMY GOODMAN : Alexis McGill Johnson , we want to ask you to stay with us as we move into our next segment .
Alexis McGill Johnson is the acting president and CEO of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America .
When we come back , as multiple states try to restrict access to abortion during the pandemic , we ’ re going to look at a powerful new dramatic film that follows a 17-year-old girl as she travels from her small town in Pennsylvania to New York City to get @ @ @ @ @ @ @ parents .
The film is called Never Rarely Sometimes Always .
Stay with us .
AMY GOODMAN : “ Intermezzo ” by the Met Orchestra .
That ’ s the orchestra of the Metropolitan Opera in New York , which performed remotely together over the weekend as part of their “ At-Home Gala .
”

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: As the coronavirus continues to spread and much of the United States remains on lockdown, abortion rights are under attack across the country. States, including Alabama, Iowa, Louisiana, Ohio, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Texas and more, have all attempted to restrict access to abortion as part of their response to the pandemic. Abortions in Texas were briefly effectively banned last week, after a federal appeals court ruled Monday that the state could restrict abortion services as it responds to the pandemic. The Washington Post called the move “the most extreme shutdown of abortion access allowed by federal courts since the Supreme Court’s 1973 Roe v. Wade decision declared access to abortion a constitutional right,” unquote. But Wednesday, Republican Governor Greg Abbott issued a new executive order loosening the restrictions on medical procedures and allowing abortion services to proceed.
The fight over abortion access has sparked a prolonged legal battle and for weeks forced people seeking abortions to leave the state of Texas to receive medical care. Planned Parenthood reported a 706% increase in abortion appointments for people crossing state lines from Texas to providers in Colorado, New Mexico and Nevada.
To look at the ongoing fight for abortion access in Texas, as well as other states, we’re joined by Alexis McGill Johnson, the acting president and CEO of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America. She’s joining us from New York City from her home to stop community spread.
Welcome to Democracy Now!, Alexis.
ALEXIS McGILL JOHNSON: Thank you so much for having me, Amy.
AMY GOODMAN: It’s great to have you with us. Well, why don’t you just give us a nationwide survey of what’s happening to abortion access in the United States?
ALEXIS McGILL JOHNSON: Absolutely. Look, I mean, as you talked earlier, we’ve already seen how COVID has laid bare the challenges in our public healthcare infrastructure, seeing how many people, particularly low-income people of color, who are experiencing the disproportionate impact of this care — and at the same time that we are all grappling with what it means to live in this pandemic, a number of governors across the country have decided that this pandemic was the right time to create executive orders to restrict more access to abortion. And what we’ve seen is the impact. We’ve seen people continue to get in their cars to drive thousands of miles to Colorado, to California, to New Mexico, just out of Texas, to seek access to get medication abortion, which is just two pills taken over 24 hours.
And, you know, we’ve been in a pushback, in a legal pushback, with a number of states, as well as with our circuit court judges, and there’s been an incredible emotional whiplash related to it, as our providers have been calling patients and telling them that their appointments are now canceled or that they in fact have to seek another method. And so, this is really unconscionable, the fact that people would use a pandemic to restrict access to healthcare, when in fact we should be trying to identify ways to expand healthcare.
AMY GOODMAN: So, let’s talk, for example, about Texas, the battle that’s been going on in the courts — and this happens in other places, as well, in Tennessee, Alabama, Oklahoma — as the governor attempts to restrict abortion. And what’s happening at the court level, one after another decisions?
ALEXIS McGILL JOHNSON: We were in court like over four times in the last couple of weeks with our partners on the ground. And essentially, where we are now is that the governor is trying to loosen the restriction, in fact, because he’s trying to open the state, which shows you that this was just a sham to begin with — right? — that the real concern around spreading access to — spreading COVID, using abortion as a guise for that really is not legitimate. And so, right now we have a loosened restriction in Texas. But there are other states where we’re continuing to fight.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about Alabama, what’s happening there, the preliminary injunction that treats abortion like all medical care, allowing physicians to provide abortion using their medical judgment?
ALEXIS McGILL JOHNSON: Yes. I mean, you know, I’m not — in terms of all the specifics with respect to Alabama and with Tennessee, I think, you know, it is — we’re using everything at our measure, in a sense, that — right? — we have to be able to defend access to abortion in these various states with these executive orders coming down. And what we’re trying to do is ensure that people seeking abortion get access as immediately as they can.
And so, I think when you look back in the bigger picture, what you’re seeing is a number of restrictions around abortion. Just last year, there were 300 restrictions that were introduced in 47 states across the country. And so, what we’re looking at is an infrastructure that has really tried to limit access to abortion. And when you layer a pandemic on top of that, we’re feeling, obviously, the impact of that. Many states — there are five states now that are essentially abortion deserts, where it’s very difficult to access. And we’re adding these additional restrictions on it, which makes it even more unsustainable.
AMY GOODMAN: And explain what you referred to as “medication abortion.” Explain — you’ve got the surgery, the procedure, and you’ve got the double pill.
ALEXIS McGILL JOHNSON: Yes. Medication abortion is offered earlier in the gestational period, and it really requires just two pills that the person seeking abortion would take within a 24-hour period. And so, this is not a procedure that requires an extensive amount of PPE. It doesn’t require — you know, in many cases, we’re able to see a patient now, with the expansion of telehealth, via Skype, like this, intake the patient, and then drive — and that patient will come and pick up the prescription and go home and take that medication safely at home. And then we are able to do follow-up care, again via telehealth, in much the same way that the rest of the country is operating right now on telehealth, telemedicine.
And so, you know, what we’re seeing is our patients are driving, again, a thousand miles. Think about this. Women are the majority of healthcare workers. We’re the majority of people homeschooling right now. We are the majority of essential workers. Our bodies have literally been deemed essential, and yet our bodies — the control of our bodies and the right to control our own bodies has not. And so we’re seeing them drive thousands of miles to get two pills and then get back in a car and drive another thousand miles back home through these various states, in ways that are incredibly unsafe.
AMY GOODMAN: Alexis McGill Johnson, you co-authored a piece for Essence magazine last week headlined “Your Job Is Deemed Essential, But Your Abortion Is Not: Black Low-Wage Women in Texas Are Being Robbed of Their Humanity.” In it, you wrote, quote, “Nonwhite women are more likely to hold jobs deemed 'essential' than any other demographic. … Even though your job has been deemed essential, your humanity, your ability to earn a living wage, your ability to access health care — pandemic or not — is not. And now in the state of Texas (and several others) your legal ability to access abortion is currently up in the air for a court to decide.” Explain the demographics that you’re talking about, and talk about women of color accessing abortion being even more challenged.
ALEXIS McGILL JOHNSON: Yeah, absolutely. And I think this is really what we’ve seen in the public health infrastructure around COVID, right? We’ve seen just the number of deaths, right? COVID is touching all of us regardless of age and class and race. And yet the folks who are dying, the folks who are being most subjected to fatality, are largely black and Latinx in major urban areas. And this challenge — right? — that our access to public healthcare infrastructure has already been challenged, and then you layer on bias, you layer on patterns and systems of discrimination over centuries, quite frankly, that have concluded, in fact, that we are — particularly women of color are the ones who are not able to get the right amount of care. So, when you layer on other challenges around black maternal mortality, regardless of income, our bodies literally are much more subject to dying during childbirth or just thereafter because of the bias built into discrimination in the system.
And when I look at these executive orders in states that are the same states that did not expand Medicaid, you know, states who have been layering on these restrictions largely for low — affecting low-income women of color, to me, it’s no surprise that we’re the ones being called in. We’re the ones who are being asked to be essential workers, and yet our ability to actually control our own bodies and to really control our own futures and freedom is being denied by the state.
AMY GOODMAN: And can you talk about the issue of women getting access, what you recommend, where access is challenged? I mean, even before the pandemic, the closing of women’s health clinics, so often you can have a situation where there’s only one or two in a state. And this new service that you are now offering, telehealth services, offering information about sexual and reproductive health?
ALEXIS McGILL JOHNSON: Yes, absolutely. It is actually a silver lining in this pandemic, that Planned Parenthood and many other health providers have actually been able to really lean into telehealth infrastructure and provide service. I think the quote was something like “We’ve moved 10 years in 10 days.” And that is actually, you know, the fact that we will be in all 50 states by the end of this month to provide access to STI screenings, to family planning, to HIV PEP and PrEP, and, in much the same way as I said, to provide some wraparound service around getting access to abortion. That’s given us a lifeline into communities, particularly areas where the shelter-in-place bans are going to continue, as well as rural areas, where there may not be access to healthcare broadly. But again, this is a silver lining for some.
And again, in many states, the challenge to — you know, COVID is essentially accelerating a big concern that we should all have about the impact not just of Roe being overturned, but literally of watching it being gutted by these restrictions year after year after year, over the last decade, in particular. And so, we have to think about how we’re going to support and how we’re going to get the 25 million women who live in states that are increasingly restrictive, access to safe and legal abortion, should they need it. And that’s currently the planning that we’re working on right now.
AMY GOODMAN: Alexis McGill Johnson, we want to ask you to stay with us as we move into our next segment. Alexis McGill Johnson is the acting president and CEO of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America. When we come back, as multiple states try to restrict access to abortion during the pandemic, we’re going to look at a powerful new dramatic film that follows a 17-year-old girl as she travels from her small town in Pennsylvania to New York City to get an abortion without having to notify her parents. The film is called Never Rarely Sometimes Always. Stay with us.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: “Intermezzo” by the Met Orchestra. That’s the orchestra of the Metropolitan Opera in New York, which performed remotely together over the weekend as part of their “At-Home Gala.”


democracynow--2020-04-27--Headlines for April 27, 2020

Headlines for April 27, 2020

Here in the United States , the White House ’ s coronavirus task force coordinator , Dr. Deborah Birx , said Sunday that social distancing will likely last through the summer , even as a growing number of states are preparing to reopen parts of the economy .
Restaurants and theaters in Georgia will be allowed to reopen starting today , after other businesses started opening their doors in Georgia last week , including massage and tattoo parlors and nail and hair salons .
Some parts of Texas are also allowing restaurants to start serving eat-in diners , as Governor @ @ @ @ @ @ @ further loosening of restrictions for the state today .
Colorado announced a new “ safer-at-home ” policy as elective surgeries and retail businesses with curbside delivery will be allowed to resume .
This is Democratic Colorado Governor Jared Polis speaking on CNN Sunday .
Gov .
Jared Polis : “ We have to make the best informed decisions based on data and science with the information we have .
What we know is that what matters a lot more than the date that the stay at home ends is what we do going @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have an ongoing , sustainable way — psychologically , economically and from a health perspective — to have the social distancing we need at workplace , where people recreate and across the board.
” Denver Mayor Michael Hancock , however , extended his city ’ s stay-at-home order to May 8 , saying more testing and tracing of the coronavirus is needed before reopening .
There are over 13,400 confirmed cases of coronavirus in Colorado , with close to 700 reported deaths .
Here in New York , Governor Andrew Cuomo said construction @ @ @ @ @ @ @ state may be able to open after May 15 , when the state ’ s lockdown order is set to expire .
Meanwhile , Governor Cuomo warns New York will soon have to slash aid to local governments by over $ 8 billion , while cutting state agency budgets by 10 % , unless Congress agrees to a bailout .
Last week , Senate Republican Majority Leader Mitch McConnell drew outrage from governors around the U.S. when he suggested state governments should declare bankruptcy rather than receive hundreds of billions of dollars in @ @ @

Here in the United States,the White House’s coronavirus task force coordinator, Dr. Deborah Birx, said Sunday that social distancing will likely last through the summer, even as a growing number of states are preparing to reopen parts of the economy. Restaurants and theaters in Georgia will be allowed to reopen starting today, after other businesses started opening their doors in Georgia last week, including massage and tattoo parlors and nail and hair salons. Some parts of Texas are also allowing restaurants to start serving eat-in diners, as Governor Greg Abbott is expected to announce a further loosening of restrictions for the state today. Colorado announced a new “safer-at-home” policy as elective surgeries and retail businesses with curbside delivery will be allowed to resume. This is Democratic Colorado Governor Jared Polis speaking on CNN Sunday.
Gov. Jared Polis: “We have to make the best informed decisions based on data and science with the information we have. What we know is that what matters a lot more than the date that the stay at home ends is what we do going forward and how we — how we have an ongoing, sustainable way — psychologically, economically and from a health perspective — to have the social distancing we need at workplace, where people recreate and across the board.”
Denver Mayor Michael Hancock, however, extended his city’s stay-at-home order to May 8, saying more testing and tracing of the coronavirus is needed before reopening. There are over 13,400 confirmed cases of coronavirus in Colorado, with close to 700 reported deaths.
Here in New York, Governor Andrew Cuomo said construction and manufacturing in less-affected parts of the state may be able to open after May 15, when the state’s lockdown order is set to expire. Meanwhile, Governor Cuomo warns New York will soon have to slash aid to local governments by over $8 billion, while cutting state agency budgets by 10%, unless Congress agrees to a bailout.
Last week, Senate Republican Majority Leader Mitch McConnell drew outrage from governors around the U.S. when he suggested state governments should declare bankruptcy rather than receive hundreds of billions of dollars in federal aid.


democracynow--2020-04-28--In Her Own Words: Fiona Apple on New Album "Fetch the Bolt Cutters" & Acknowledging Indigenous Lands

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : Fetch the Bolt Cutters .
That ’ s the name of the new critically acclaimed album , just released , by singer-songwriter Fiona Apple , into a world under lockdown .
Fiona Apple ’ s fifth album was released months early due to the unprecedented coronavirus pandemic .
The remarkable album has become somewhat of a soundtrack of our time , with emotionally wrought songs including “ Ladies , ” “ Relay ” and , of course , “ Fetch the Bolt @ @ @ @ @ @ @ album a 10-out-of-10 score , its first perfect rating in nearly a decade .
The record also includes a land acknowledgment .
The bottom of the tracklist on the back of Fiona Apple ’ s album cover reads , quote , “ Made on unceded Tongva , Mescalero Apache , and Suma territories.
” Well , Fiona Apple joined us on Friday from her home in Los Angeles along with Native American activist Eryn Wise .
Eryn is a Native American organizer with Seeding Sovereignty , an Indigenous-led collective Fiona Apple supports .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ initiative to help Indigenous communities affected by the outbreak .
In New Mexico , Navajo Nation is the epicenter of the outbreak throughout Native America and has the third-highest infection rate in the country , following only New York and New Jersey .
I began our conversation with Fiona asking her about her new album .
AMY GOODMAN : Singer-songwriter Fiona Apple .
She just released her latest album , Fetch the Bolt Cutters .
We ’ ll be back with Fiona and Native American activist Eryn Wise in a minute .
AMY @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Apple , off her new critically acclaimed album , Fetch the Bolt Cutters .
The album includes a land acknowledgment : “ Made on unceded Tongva , Mescalero Apache , and Suma territories.
” This is Democracy Now !
, democracynow.org , The Quarantine Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman , as we continue our interview with Fiona Apple , who joined us for the interview along with Eryn Wise , a member of the Jicarilla Apache Nation and Laguna Pueblo people .
She joined us from Phoenix , Arizona .
Eryn @ @ @ @ @ @ @ an Indigenous-led collective that Fiona Apple supports .
Seeding Sovereignty has launched a rapid response initiative to help Indigenous communities affected by the spread of COVID-19 in New Mexico .
The Navajo Nation has the third-highest coronavirus infection rate in the United States , following only New York and New Jersey .
At least 59 people have died from the virus .
In New Mexico , Native Americans make up more than one-third of the state ’ s coronavirus cases but only 10 % of the population .
Navajo Nation President Jonathan Nez @ @ @ @ @ @ @ earlier this month .
He said of the unfolding catastrophe , quote , “ We are United States citizens , but we ’ re not treated like that .
We once again have been forgotten by our own government , ” he said .
I spoke with Eryn Wise about the spread of COVID-19 in Navajo Nation .
And I also talked , continued with Fiona Apple .
But I began by asking Eryn to tell us about the land she was joining us from .
AMY GOODMAN : That ’ s Fiona @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , Fetch the Bolt Cutters .
When we come back , in this broadcast exclusive , Fiona talks about the power of music , and Eryn Wise talks about murdered and missing Indigenous women and girls .
Stay with us .
AMY GOODMAN : “ Ladies ” by Fiona Apple .
This is Democracy Now !
, democracynow.org , The Quarantine Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman , as we continue our discussion with singer-songwriter Fiona Apple and Eryn Wise of the Indigenous group Seeding Sovereignty .
They joined us just after @ @ @ @ @ @ @ new album , Fetch the Bolt Cutters .
AMY GOODMAN : Indigenous activist Eryn Wise with Seeding Sovereignty and singer-songwriter Fiona Apple .
They joined us just after the release of Fiona ’ s new album , Fetch the Bolt Cutters .
We end today ’ s show where we began it , with the title track .
And that does it for our show .
If you ’ d like to sign up for our daily digest , our quarantine report , you can text the word “ democracynow ” — one @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s “ democracynow ” — one word — to 66866 .
You can also sign up on our website at democracynow.org , where all of our video and audio podcasts are , and our transcripts of every show .
Democracy Now !
is working with as few people on site as possible .
The majority of our amazing team is working from home .
Democracy Now !
is produced with Renée Feltz , Mike Burke , Deena Guzder , Libby Rainey , Nermeen Shaikh , Carla Wills , Tami Woronoff , Charina Nadura @ @ @ @ @ @ @ John Hamilton , Robby Karran , Hany Massoud , Adriano Contreras , María Taracena .
Special thanks to Julie Crosby and Denis Moynihan .
I ’ m Amy Goodman .
Thanks so much for joining us .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The Quarantine Report. I’m Amy Goodman.
FIONA APPLE: [singing] Fetch the bolt cutters
I’ve been in here too long
Fetch the bolt cutters
I’ve been in here too long
Fetch the bolt cutters
I’ve been in here too long
Fetch the bolt cutters
AMY GOODMAN: Fetch the Bolt Cutters. That’s the name of the new critically acclaimed album, just released, by singer-songwriter Fiona Apple, into a world under lockdown. Fiona Apple’s fifth album was released months early due to the unprecedented coronavirus pandemic. The remarkable album has become somewhat of a soundtrack of our time, with emotionally wrought songs including “Ladies,” “Relay” and, of course, “Fetch the Bolt Cutters.” Music website Pitchfork gave the album a 10-out-of-10 score, its first perfect rating in nearly a decade. The record also includes a land acknowledgment. The bottom of the tracklist on the back of Fiona Apple’s album cover reads, quote, “Made on unceded Tongva, Mescalero Apache, and Suma territories.”
Well, Fiona Apple joined us on Friday from her home in Los Angeles along with Native American activist Eryn Wise. Eryn is a Native American organizer with Seeding Sovereignty, an Indigenous-led collective Fiona Apple supports. Seeding Sovereignty has launched a rapid response initiative to help Indigenous communities affected by the outbreak. In New Mexico, Navajo Nation is the epicenter of the outbreak throughout Native America and has the third-highest infection rate in the country, following only New York and New Jersey. I began our conversation with Fiona asking her about her new album.
AMY GOODMAN: Congratulations on this album. Did you expect anything like the global acclaim that you are getting right now upon this release?
FIONA APPLE: No, I did not. It’s a little bit uncomfortable, to be honest. But I just wanted to release a record in a time when I thought it would have a chance to be listened to. And I’m just so, so happy that it turned out to — it seems like it’s actually doing the thing that any artist would want their art to do, which is to help people feel free, especially when they’re not feeling free.
AMY GOODMAN: I mean, what could be a better name and title for your album and song than Fetch the Bolt Cutters for our time? Talk about how you came up with that?
FIONA APPLE: Well, I was at home, as I usually am, and my housemate Zelda and I were watching the show The Fall, starring Gillian Anderson, and were just eating dinner, watching a television show. And there’s a scene where she was to rescue a young girl from where she thought was locked behind this door, and they were supposed to wait for backup. And she just sort of throws away this line, and she says, “Fetch the bolt cutters.” And I just shot up from the couch, because I was like, “This sounds — this is exactly what my — this is what my record is going to be called.” And I wrote it on the chalkboard. I got a tattoo. So, that’s what the title is about.
AMY GOODMAN: So you came up with the title before you came up with the song.
FIONA APPLE: Oh, yes. The song “Fetch the Bolt Cutters” was actually the second-to-last song that I wrote for the record. And it was just — it was sort of the last thing that I had on my mind after the culmination of everything that had been going on in my life, that I finally was just like, “Let me face this all and just see it all, so that I can finally get out of here.” And then, of course, as soon as I saw — as soon as I fetched the bolt cutters and was like, “I’m going to get out of here,” then we got on lockdown. So…
AMY GOODMAN: So, Fetch the Bolt Cutters, the album, includes a land acknowledgment. You’ve described it as sort of a last song of the album. Talk about what this land acknowledgment means to you.
FIONA APPLE: Well, Eryn and I had been talking about doing land acknowledgments. She wanted to start this project, which I think is amazingly smart and would be so nutritious for Americans, is that when artists go on tour, that they acknowledge the lands, the unceded lands, that they’re performing on, and perhaps educate people — and Eryn will correct me on any of this if I’m wrong, but educate people about the tribes that lived on those territories, so that we can keep aware of where we are and what the story is.
Now, the fact that we can’t tour now until probably 2022 maybe or late 2021 means that I can’t do that on the road, so Eryn brought this up to me when the album was finished. She said, “I wonder if you would consider doing this on the album.” And I just thought, “Absolutely, of course. That makes total sense. And yes, I would love to do that.”
And I do think that putting that on my album, as opposed to just like saying something like “I support this cause,” and the act of giving songs, giving sync requests, keeps them close to me and my life, so that it’s not just like a one-time thing that I’m just saying, “Oh, I’m into this cause right now because it’s kind of interesting,” but I’m just going to flit off over there after it’s over and just be done with it. This way, I’m tied into it with something that I made, now has more meaning because it’s attached to them. So, it’s a way for me to also make a life commitment to be listening and to be able to be a friend in whatever best way I can.
AMY GOODMAN: So, you say, “Made on unceded Tongva, Mescalero Apache, and Suma territories.” Where are you?
FIONA APPLE: Well, I’m in Los Angeles, so that would be Tongva. And then we did go to Texas for a little bit. It wasn’t entirely made in this house. We had gone and done a session on a pecan ranch in Texas. And I gave Eryn the addresses of any place that anything was done — the mixing studio, my house and the sonic ranch in Texas. And she took those addresses and told me what the real addresses of those places are, which is these territories. And it’s just very important to keep on saying it, because it’s not in everybody’s day-to-day life. People aren’t thinking about this every day, and they really should be, that we are not living on land that was ceded to us.
And not only that, but — I mean, I’m sorry if I’m getting ahead of myself here, but I was reading — you know, once I was done with this album, I’m not interested in myself so much anymore, you know? So I’m starting to read the news a lot more. And I’m ashamed of how uneducated I am, but I don’t want to let that shame keep me from being in conversations and keep me from asking questions and keep me from being able to be useful to people, because it’s that shame or that guilt about that, that sometimes keeps people from wanting to enter a conversation. And I just think that this is always relevant, and it always will be, and it needs to be constantly. Constantly, you need to be reminded of it.
AMY GOODMAN: Singer-songwriter Fiona Apple. She just released her latest album, Fetch the Bolt Cutters. We’ll be back with Fiona and Native American activist Eryn Wise in a minute.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: “Relay” by Fiona Apple, off her new critically acclaimed album, Fetch the Bolt Cutters. The album includes a land acknowledgment: “Made on unceded Tongva, Mescalero Apache, and Suma territories.”
This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The Quarantine Report. I’m Amy Goodman, as we continue our interview with Fiona Apple, who joined us for the interview along with Eryn Wise, a member of the Jicarilla Apache Nation and Laguna Pueblo people. She joined us from Phoenix, Arizona. Eryn is an organizer with Seeding Sovereignty, an Indigenous-led collective that Fiona Apple supports. Seeding Sovereignty has launched a rapid response initiative to help Indigenous communities affected by the spread of COVID-19 in New Mexico.
The Navajo Nation has the third-highest coronavirus infection rate in the United States, following only New York and New Jersey. At least 59 people have died from the virus. In New Mexico, Native Americans make up more than one-third of the state’s coronavirus cases but only 10% of the population. Navajo Nation President Jonathan Nez had to quarantine after exposure to COVID-19 earlier this month. He said of the unfolding catastrophe, quote, “We are United States citizens, but we’re not treated like that. We once again have been forgotten by our own government,” he said.
I spoke with Eryn Wise about the spread of COVID-19 in Navajo Nation. And I also talked, continued with Fiona Apple. But I began by asking Eryn to tell us about the land she was joining us from.
ERYN WISE: Right now — hi — I’m on unceded Akimel O’odham territory, so in Phoenix, Arizona, right now.
AMY GOODMAN: And you’re really writing a manual on land acknowledgments. For people who are hearing this for the first time — I mean, Fiona Apple does a land acknowledgment on her album — they may not really even know what that is, or when people stand up when they’re giving a talk, making that kind of land acknowledgment first. Explain what this is all about. And explain your own heritage, Eryn.
ERYN WISE: Sure, sure. I’m Jicarilla Apache and Laguna Pueblo, so I was raised in so-called New Mexico, at the base of the Colorado Rockies, around a bunch of grandparents and a ton of elders, which is why the work that Seeding Sovereignty is doing right now is so important.
In terms of land and water acknowledgments, they’re formal recognitions of any and all original peoples and defenders and protectors of territories that have been unceded by Indigenous peoples. So, basically, what we’re asking is for folks to do the first step — it’s really a first in a series of many steps — towards reclaiming land, reclaiming culture, and also returning land eventually, but having folks be aware of the territories that they’re on, learn the histories of the original peoples and also learn the names of these lifeways, you know, like the rivers and also our different creeks and our oceans, and realizing that there are people that recognize all of these lands and waters, these more-than-human kin, by original place names, by original names given to them by the creator. And, you know, encouraging folks to do those land acknowledgments in public settings and those water acknowledgments really calls the spirits of those beings into life.
AMY GOODMAN: And if you can talk about how you see land acknowledgments as just one step?
ERYN WISE: Yeah, sure. So, land acknowledgment, there’s a lot of work that needs to be done beyond it, right? A lot of folks in Indigenous communities are experiencing huge inequities. And so, going to a place and saying, “This is unceded Tongva territory,” is one thing, but, like Fiona said, this is an ongoing effort. You can do the first step. You can educate yourself. But there’s also work that needs to be done in how can you help the people whose territory you benefit from. If you are a business operator, what are you doing in your business to ensure reciprocity with the communities that you are benefiting from, from their erasure, from the genocide that happened on their land? What is it that you’re doing in your own personal life to ensure that folks are able to reclaim their existence and also to eventually see our territories returned to us? I think that’s the ultimate goal with land acknowledgments, is land back.
AMY GOODMAN: And if you can talk about how the coronavirus pandemic now is infecting and affecting Indigenous communities? You right now are in Phoenix, Arizona. How it’s affecting people in Arizona, particularly the Navajo, people in New Mexico, which is really called the epicenter of the coronavirus pandemic in Indigenous territory?
ERYN WISE: It is, yeah. And right now I do just want to honor that there have been 49 deaths on the Navajo Nation, so I want to lift my hands to the folks who are navigating burials and things that they need to do without their ceremonies and access to protocol.
I do want to just also bring to light that there are over 1,200 cases on the Navajo Nation. Folks aren’t also looking at the fact that the surrounding pueblos that are nearby the Navajo Nation, in New Mexico specifically, are also being heavily impacted. And we’re seeing upwards of 50 cases on some pueblos and limited, limited access. What’s happening right now is, what I feel, a continuation of genocide that’s existed against Indigenous peoples in this country since its inception.
AMY GOODMAN: And explain where the Navajo Nation spans.
ERYN WISE: Yeah, sure. The Navajo Nation expands across the Four Corners, so it exists a bit in Colorado, Utah, Arizona and New Mexico.
AMY GOODMAN: And so, you were saying about the outbreak there and how it’s being dealt with?
ERYN WISE: Yeah. So, the outbreak in Navajo Nation is similar — and not just in Navajo Nation, but in New Mexico, in general — is similar to the ways that the government has responded to a lot of things in Indigenous communities. You know, folks are showing up with supplies that aren’t adequate for the needs of the communities, if supplies are showing up at all. There aren’t any doctors that are being afforded to the areas greater than some community members that have gotten together and decided that they’re going to go to the Navajo Nation to support. There are some federal mobile testing squads that have shown up. But in general, we are seeing a huge disparity between the support that’s being offered to non-people of the global majority in the United States, so to say non-people of color, and realizing that it’s not just Indigenous communities that are being impacted, but all folks of color across the United States.
What you’re seeing across Navajo Nation, in the pueblos in New Mexico, that there are folks basically being treated as if they are just kind of the fodder for this government’s response to the coronavirus. They are being sacrificed and often predeceased by the headlines that are being circulated in news outlets. You know, I keep seeing headlines that say this coronavirus could wipe out entire tribes, entire Indigenous nations. And I don’t think folks really realize that there are over 570 federally recognized reservations and nations, and also all these unrecognized nations that exist. So, it’s not like anybody is going to wipe us out in one fell swoop. They already tried that, and it didn’t work.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about what Seeding Sovereignty is, and what it is you’re trying to do?
ERYN WISE: Sure. Seeding Sovereignty is an organization that is Indigenous- and women-led. We are all queer-identifying in some way. And the work that we’re doing right now to address COVID is a three-faceted rapid response program.
So, basically, we have a mask drive, where we have actually raised money to purchase KN95-grade masks. We purchased 10,000 of those. We are also purchasing another additional 12,000 masks that are high-grade material, that can last for up to six years if taken care of properly, that we are going to be providing to the Navajo Nation and Indigenous communities in New Mexico.
Additionally, we have a petition asking folks to put pressure on the government to demand that they provide expeditious support to Indigenous communities, not just in New Mexico, but across Turtle Island, folks that are being overlooked and treated as sacrifice zones for this pandemic.
AMY GOODMAN: You’ve talked about the theme of genocide, and I wanted to ask you to address the way the legacies of colonization, colonialism, erasure have set the stage, as you’ve described it, for the response to what’s happening in Indian Country right now.
ERYN WISE: Yeah. So, we signed treaties over 150 years ago, many of the tribes that are currently being impacted, ensuring that we would have access to life, our cultures and our general health. And I think that folks don’t realize that this pandemic and the fact that there is so little access and so little support being provided to Indigenous communities, Black communities — I really do feel like it is a continuation of the colonial project to “kill the Indian and save the man.”
I think that folks are really looking at people of the global majority, folks of color, in this country, that are being hit by coronavirus, and they’re really seeing the health inequities and the education inequity and the lack of access, and they’re saying, “Well, that’s kind of too much for us to take on. Like, we don’t want to have to look at another broken thing that we have to fix, even if we broke it.” That really breaks my heart.
I think that they don’t realize that — you know, this mutual aid that we’re engaging in, I don’t think that they understand that it is an Indigenous practice, that it’s a practice of the people of the global majority, to offer community support without demand for reciprocity. I think also folks don’t realize that mutual aid existing in a time of colonialism and continued genocide really looks like Brown and Black folks coming together and saying, “Hey, we still don’t want to die. We haven’t wanted to for the last 500 years. And how can I support you in your community? And how, later on, may you support ours, so that we show each other that we have this continued legacy of support, that we are building bridges between our communities, no matter how much they try to silo us?” And a lot of us are rejecting the notion that we are people worth killing and that we are people not worth listening to or that our lives do not matter as those of the 1% in this community or the folks with access.
I think one of the biggest things with the work that Fiona has done in support of Seeding Sovereignty is to show folks that you can have a limited platform, you can have a huge platform, but, regardless, you can take the time to support people in need, just because you want to, and because you realize that there’s a lack of access and you have that point that can be the connection.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, I wanted to go back to Fiona Apple, to this whole theme of acknowledgment. And can you expand on it to talk about how themes of acknowledgment are expressed throughout your new album, Fetch the Bolt Cutters?
FIONA APPLE: Well, it’s just — it’s a completely different subject, because it’s just, you know, one woman’s life. But it’s the same thing as with anything that it’s — acknowledgment is the first step in a series of a lot of steps towards healing anything, any — personal or global. You have to acknowledge it. They always say, the first step is admitting that you’ve got a problem. And for me, yes, that is just the first step, and it’s so easy to do. It’s so easy to acknowledge it, to acknowledge these things. But we forget, or it’s an afterthought, or we have guilt or shame so we just don’t want to think about it or talk about it.
Or, in my case, we feel stupid, we feel uneducated, we feel ignorant. And so, that’s something else, that that’s the first thing that I need to acknowledge, before I can actually be any kind of friend or, you know, to help in any kind of way, to make a connection. Before I can do that, I have to admit that I am ignorant. I’m an ignorant white person, and I have lived a whole life of privilege. And I have no idea what it’s like to not be me. And so, all I can really — the best thing I can do right now is to say, “I’ve got time, and I’ve got space, and I’ve got money. And please, just talk to me. Let me know. Like, just fill my head. I’m a blank space, you know? Teach me.”
AMY GOODMAN: But you also make so clear, in all of your art and your music, your experiences and what you’ve learned from them. If you could talk about your song “Relay,” which begins with the line “Evil is a relay sport, when the one you burn turns to pass the torch.” You wrote that years ago, didn’t you?
FIONA APPLE: Yeah, I wrote it when I was about 15, actually.
AMY GOODMAN: And talk about what it meant to you then.
FIONA APPLE: Well, I had been assaulted when I was about 12 or 13. And immediately, questions of guilt and innocence and retaliation and acceptance and peace and war, all of these things just came — it was all living within me all of a sudden, because I had this — I didn’t know how to wrap my head around somebody wanting to hurt me or anybody like that. I didn’t know — I don’t understand it.
So, the first thing I was thinking was, “Well, something must have been done to him.” And so, that was just my thought about him, that somebody had burned him, and he saw somebody — me — who looked vulnerable enough to burn, and maybe he thought that would take the burn off of him. But it doesn’t. It just passes it on. And he keeps it, and I got it, too. So, that was my thought then, and that was a big subject.
And then, you know, I spent a couple of years aware of internet culture, and my whole thoughts about that thing became very small and very personal and very kind of petty. But it’s all kind of the same thing. It’s just people feeling bad about something, or feeling embarrassed or feeling weak, and just trying to take that out on someone else, feeling like somebody else made you feel weak or somebody else did something to you, so you’re just going to take it out on someone else. And it happens all the time, and it doesn’t help anybody.
AMY GOODMAN: Let’s go to Fiona Apple’s “For Her.” FIONA APPLE: [singing] You arrive and drive by, like a sauced-up bat
Like you know you should know, but you don’t know where it’s at
You arrive and drive by, like a sauced-up bat
Like you know you should know, but you don’t know where it’s at
Like you know you should know, but you don’t know what you did.
AMY GOODMAN: Fiona Apple’s “For Her,” from her latest album, Fetch the Bolt Cutters. You told Vulture you wrote it, in part, about the Brett Kavanaugh Supreme Court hearings?
FIONA APPLE: After watching those hearings, all of the things that women and people — victims of sexual assault and sexual abuse will all understand this. And there are some men out there that are just never going to understand this. But, you know, Trump — Trump, Kavanaugh, all these guys, they bring up — they bring it all back. And so, sitting there and watching that man and knowing that he was going to be on the Supreme Court is just — it just hurts me down to the marrow.
And, you know, on that subject, it makes me feel like — you know, seeing that guy’s anger and his entitlement to make decisions on behalf of Americans, basically, knowing that he had violated somebody, or believing that he had violated somebody, does make me think about the other issue that we’re talking about here today: people who are in power who are basically descendants of the people who assaulted and killed your own families. I cannot imagine what it’s like to be an Indigenous person right now and to watch everybody else living and going about everything and talking about all problems going on, and just ignoring you, just not even looking at you.
AMY GOODMAN: You’re writing this now in the midst of the #MeToo movement. Are you hoping that this will make women feel more powerful in responding and in joining together with other women, which is really a theme in a lot of your songs right now, for example, “Ladies,” the power of your relationship with women, Fiona?
FIONA APPLE: Yes, I am hoping that that song in particular will help, if not power, then just stepping away from weakness and stepping away — especially, it’s a song that hopefully will give catharsis and will give expression to people who may not be able to actually voice what’s happened to them. And that does happen a lot, and especially when people are not even sure if what’s happened to them is rape, but they feel like it is, but they feel like they can’t say it out loud. I feel like maybe this song, they can sing along with that one line and feel it and believe it and know their truth, no matter what anybody else says.
And I liked — I had done so many versions of that song just singing by myself, and literally just shaking, going to press record. I had done so many versions singing by myself. And then, one day, I sang that line, and it sank into me. And I finally felt the anger that I had never felt for the man who assaulted me when I was a child. I sang that line over and over again until I really felt it. And when I felt it, I finally felt anger, and it was an amazing thing. And I hope that — and you need to feel your anger in order to get past it.
And I’m hoping that that will do the same for other women. I also felt like I needed other voices with me. I felt like I was by myself. So, I just decided, “Well, I’m the only one here, so I’ll just create a whole village of friends, of women, to support me, to sing along with me.” And so that’s what I did, and it worked.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s Fiona Apple. Her critically acclaimed new album, Fetch the Bolt Cutters. When we come back, in this broadcast exclusive, Fiona talks about the power of music, and Eryn Wise talks about murdered and missing Indigenous women and girls. Stay with us.
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AMY GOODMAN: “Ladies” by Fiona Apple. This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The Quarantine Report. I’m Amy Goodman, as we continue our discussion with singer-songwriter Fiona Apple and Eryn Wise of the Indigenous group Seeding Sovereignty. They joined us just after the release of Fiona Apple’s new album, Fetch the Bolt Cutters.
AMY GOODMAN: So, let’s talk about “Cosmonauts.” I mean, this is a song that seems to have anticipated, to say the least, the current moment, about two people who are going to live together forever. You said you imagined them in a tiny vessel in space. Talk about the writing of “Cosmonauts.”
FIONA APPLE: Yes. Well, Judd Apatow had asked me to do a song for the movie This Is 40, and he wanted it to be a song about realizing that you love this person and you want to be with them together forever. And I just could not relate to that feeling. I’ve been in love, and I’ve wanted to have people in my life forever, but I’ve never wanted to like be in a marriage with somebody forever. And so, I just couldn’t really wrap my head around it.
But I tried. And so, I just thought of it as though, you know, well, if we’re stuck together — it’s like being stuck together. You know, being together, staying together with someone forever is just a matter of never leaving, whether for right or wrong. So, if you’re just stuck with somebody, imagine how — I just couldn’t imagine how that would be with me, because the first line says it all for me in a relationship. At certain points, you know, you just look at somebody, and you’re just like, “I’m done. I’m angry now. I just looked at your face, and I’m just done.” So, how could you possibly spend a whole lifetime with somebody? So, that was my thought then. And so that’s why I wrote that song like that.
AMY GOODMAN: Your first line, “Your face ignites a fuse to my patience.”
FIONA APPLE: Yeah.
AMY GOODMAN: Let’s play a little of “Cosmonauts.” FIONA APPLE: [singing] Now let me see, it’s you and me, forgive a good God
How do you suppose that we’ve survived?
Come on, that’s right, left, right
Make light of all the heavier
’Cause you and I will be like a couple of cosmonauts
Except with way more gravity than when we started off.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s “Cosmonauts,” and that’s from Fiona Apple’s phenomenal new album, just out after many years, Fetch the Bolt Cutters. And as we begin to wrap up, Fiona, I wanted to ask you about the power of music in society, especially today. You’re known for writing so ingeniously, creatively about love and loss. To say the least, in this time of the pandemic, people are dealing with enormous loss. What was it like to be writing your music now? And also, why you pushed for it to be released now, as millions of people are being told to shelter at home, if they’re lucky enough to have homes? There’s a lot in there, but if you could just talk about it all?
FIONA APPLE: Yes. Well, my friend Mikaela, aka King Princess, she’s a musician. She wrote to me. She texted me one day a few weeks ago saying, “Fi, you’ve got to release your record. I know your record’s done. You’ve got to release it. You’ve got to release it. People really need music now.” And she’s way more in touch with what’s going on than I am. And I was like, “Yeah, you know, that does make sense.” But I thought, “It’s OK. I mean, stuff will come out soon anyway.” I just wasn’t really thinking about it that much.
And then I got a rollout schedule proposing all the different things that would go on from now until the release of the record, which would end up being in October. And it had like my first song coming out in June, at like the end of June. And that just set me off on a two-day text tirade making my case for putting out the album now, which is basically — you know, I know it takes a lot more than just pushing a button, but push a button. The album’s done. It can go out digitally, and people can enjoy it. And if we wait — this was just all a big matter of logic, because if we waited, I would have been lost in the mix. I wanted to be able to be heard. I don’t really like to open my mouth in a room and speak unless I feel like people are going to listen. If I don’t think you’re going to listen, then I’m just going to walk away. So, I wanted to put it out when I thought that it would have the best chance, because I put a lot of work into it.
And I hoped that it might be — I knew that it would help people who were fans of mine, because they’re just waiting around for so many years, and so it’s like, “Oh, yeah, OK, the new record is here. Good. That’s something for me to do for a couple of days.” You know, but I have heard that it’s actually making people feel free and happy, and it might be helping people feel alive or feel their anger or feel creative. And that’s the best thing that I could hope for, that and also trying to tie my songs in with things that I believe in.
And, you know, I just wanted to say something off of the topic of my record, just because I know that this — I did some — I’m so uneducated, and I did some studying, and I just have to say that I just wish that there are Indigenous folks teaching in schools, teaching American history, because I did not realize, I was never taught, that, for instance, Thomas Jefferson said that — Thomas Jefferson said, “To promote this disposition to exchange lands, which they have to spare and we want, … we shall push our trading uses, and be glad to see the good and influential individuals among them run in debt, … we observe that when these debts get beyond what the individuals can pay, they become willing to lop them off by a cession of lands.” It’s so boldly evil. It’s so — “we [would] … be glad to see the good … individuals [of] them [fall into] debt.” It was planned, that it was — it’s like the Trail of Tears was a hundred years in the making. He wrote about removing all Indigenous folks 15 years before he became president.
I don’t know anything about American history. I didn’t pay attention in class. And now I’m kind of glad I didn’t, because I don’t think we’re being taught everything. We think of this guy as he’s the architect of so many of the ways that we think in America, and yet that’s what he was thinking. That’s that guy. That’s who that guy was.
And, you know, so many of our American heroes are actually like that. L. Frank Baum, I mean, I didn’t know that he was all for — basically, for genocide. He basically promoted genocide in his paper. I always thought he was like for women’s suffrage, he was a good guy. But no. So, it’s hard to look at how we put these men in positions of power and how they’ve shaped our whole American history, and not be aware, until I’m 42, that they were for genocide, for Christ’s sake. I mean.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, let’s give the last word to Eryn Wise. As Fiona talks about the information she didn’t learn going to school, what it means to reframe American history from a Native perspective?
ERYN WISE: Gosh, that’s a big question, and I don’t think that I could do it any justice as a single person, and I don’t speak on behalf of my tribe or anybody but myself. But I would say that, you know, the moment that we’re in right now is a time of learning. I think a lot of folks are feeling like they have to be producing, they have to be creating. And Fiona has done that beautifully. But for folks that are at home, you can be doing the same thing that Fi is. You can be teaching yourself online. You can be reading. You can be reaching out to Indigenous educators. You can be creating systems in which you plan to go back into school as teachers and teach folks about Indigenous histories. You can also make plans to vet for Indigenous educators in your community to be teaching in your schools. I think that’s entirely important.
And I think that one of the things I wanted to bring attention to is that Fiona unwittingly touches so many different subjects that are impacting Indigenous communities today in her album. When she addresses rape and she addresses sexual assault, she is also addressing violence against Indigenous women, the murdered, missing Indigenous women here who are overlooked. We are also looking at the violence against women and girls in general, you know, not just Indigenous communities, but the fact that there are one in three women will be raped in our lifetime here in the so-called United States. I think that that is a legacy that needs to be looked at.
I also think the fact that Fiona — you know, in “Heavy Balloon,” she touches on all of these plants growing and, you know, her spirit coming back to herself. And I told her that when she was talking, that it reminded me of the three sisters planting, and how we need to be in kinship, we need to be in sisterhood with one another, to continue to build the communities that we want to see.
I also think that, you know, “Ladies,” to me, when I was listening to it, I was listening to it with a bunch of queer gay men on the phone, and all of them felt like that song was for them, too. So I also want to honor the indigenous LGBTQIA+ two-spirit folks, the trans folks, that exist in our communities, and everybody that Fiona is calling into being with this album and also with her work. I think it’s incredibly imperative to harness and access that dignified rage, to hold it in your hand and be able to acknowledge, you know, these are all the things that hurt me, but I’m going to put them down, and I’m going to figure out how to transform that pain into something that can heal people that have been hurt. And I really do feel like in this moment, Indigenous communities have been looking for that healing.
And to even have somebody with a platform like Fiona be able to say, “I’m sorry. I never knew until now,” that is a healing for me, because I’ve been listening to Fiona for 20 years. I never thought that we would be friends. I never thought that she would be invested in the work. And yet here she is, using her power, using her medicine, to transform and set a precedent for an entire generation of people. I think that that’s powerful.
And I also think that the work that Seeding Sovereignty is doing is also setting a precedent and encouraging folks to be more engaged with the climate justice movement, to be more engaged with violence against women, because that begets violence against the land, and to also look at Indigenous histories in the so-called United States and realize that almost everybody that people see as heroes were actually genocidal maniacs that wanted to ensure that this country was rid of any Indians or any people of color that weren’t in service to them.
AMY GOODMAN: Indigenous activist Eryn Wise with Seeding Sovereignty and singer-songwriter Fiona Apple. They joined us just after the release of Fiona’s new album, Fetch the Bolt Cutters. We end today’s show where we began it, with the title track.
FIONA APPLE: [singing] I’ve been thinking about when
I was trying to be your friend
I thought it was then
But it wasn’t
It wasn’t genuine
I was just so furious
But I couldn’t show you
'Cause I know you
And I know what you can do
And I don't wanna war with you
I won’t afford it
You get sore even when you win
And you maim when you’re on offense
But you kill when you’re on defense
And you’ve got them all convinced
That you’re the means and the end
All the VIPs and PYTs and wannabes
Afraid of not being your friend
And I’ve always been too smart for that
But you know what?
My heart was not
I took it like a kid, you see
The cool kids voted to get rid of me
I’m ashamed of what it did to me
What I let get done
They stole my fun
They stole my fun
Fetch the bolt cutters
I’ve been in here too long
Fetch the bolt cutters
I’ve been in here too long.
AMY GOODMAN: “Fetch the Bolt Cutters” by Fiona Apple.
And that does it for our show. If you’d like to sign up for our daily digest, our quarantine report, you can text the word “democracynow” — one word — to 66866. That’s “democracynow” — one word — to 66866. You can also sign up on our website at democracynow.org, where all of our video and audio podcasts are, and our transcripts of every show.
Democracy Now! is working with as few people on site as possible. The majority of our amazing team is working from home. Democracy Now! is produced with Renée Feltz, Mike Burke, Deena Guzder, Libby Rainey, Nermeen Shaikh, Carla Wills, Tami Woronoff, Charina Nadura, Sam Alcoff, Tey-Marie Astudillo, John Hamilton, Robby Karran, Hany Massoud, Adriano Contreras, María Taracena. Special thanks to Julie Crosby and Denis Moynihan. I’m Amy Goodman. Thanks so much for joining us.


democracynow--2020-04-28--Headlines for April 28, 2020

Headlines for April 28, 2020

The New York State Board of Elections has canceled the Democratic presidential primary scheduled for June 23 after removing Bernie Sanders from the ballot .
While other states have postponed primaries due to the coronavirus outbreak , New York becomes the first to outright cancel a planned primary .
The Bernie Sanders campaign blasted the decision , calling it a “ blow to American democracy.
” While Sanders suspended his presidential campaign earlier this month , he decided to remain on the ballot in upcoming primaries in an attempt to accrue more delegates to influence the Democratic Party ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
A law signed earlier this year by Governor Andrew Cuomo gave the New York State Board of Elections the power to remove candidates who have suspended their campaigns from the ballot .
Senior Sanders adviser Jeff Weaver said , “ Just last week Vice President Biden warned the American people that President Trump could use the current crisis as an excuse to postpone the November election .
Well , he now has a precedent thanks to New York state.
” Primaries will still be held in New York for other races on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to be much lower .

The New York State Board of Elections has canceled the Democratic presidential primary scheduled for June 23 after removing Bernie Sanders from the ballot. While other states have postponed primaries due to the coronavirus outbreak, New York becomes the first to outright cancel a planned primary.
The Bernie Sanders campaign blasted the decision, calling it a “blow to American democracy.” While Sanders suspended his presidential campaign earlier this month, he decided to remain on the ballot in upcoming primaries in an attempt to accrue more delegates to influence the Democratic Party’s platform at the party’s convention.
A law signed earlier this year by Governor Andrew Cuomo gave the New York State Board of Elections the power to remove candidates who have suspended their campaigns from the ballot. Senior Sanders adviser Jeff Weaver said, “Just last week Vice President Biden warned the American people that President Trump could use the current crisis as an excuse to postpone the November election. Well, he now has a precedent thanks to New York state.” Primaries will still be held in New York for other races on June 23, but turnout is expected to be much lower.


democracynow--2020-04-29--Education Crisis: From Pre-K to Higher Ed, Students Face Unequal Access During Coronavirus Shutdown

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
, democracynow.org , The Quarantine Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman in New York .
Juan González is co-hosting from New Jersey , as we turn to the impact of the pandemic on schools , universities , students , parents , teachers and professors .
Here in New York City , the epicenter of the pandemic , home to the largest school district in the United States , public schools have been closed since March 16th @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have died from coronavirus , including 28 teachers , 25 teacher ’ s assistants , also administrators , office workers , school aides , food service workers , guidance counselors , a parent coordinator and a technology specialist .
On Tuesday , New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio announced a new grading system for the rest of the coronavirus-disrupted school year and said some so-called underperforming students may be enrolled in virtual summer school .
This is is Mayor de Blasio .
AMY GOODMAN : This comes as the Los Angeles Unified @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in the U.S. , has announced no student will receive an F grade .
California Governor Gavin Newsom said the state ’ s academic year could start in late July or early August , and some K-through-12 campuses may reopen to offer summer school programs .
Meanwhile , here in New York , at least 12 , and possibly as many as 17 , faculty and staff in the public City University of New York system have died since the coronavirus pandemic began , including five at Brooklyn College .
This comes as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ closing down their campuses and moving instruction online during the pandemic .
For more on all this , we ’ re joined by education scholar Noliwe Rooks , the W.E.B .
Du Bois professor of literature at Cornell University , where she ’ s also director of American studies and a professor in Africana studies .
She ’ s the author of Cutting School : Privatization , Segregation , and the End of Public Education , joining us from her home in Ithaca , New York .
She ’ ll be the featured @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on the future of public schools in Queens after COVID-19 .
Professor Rooks , welcome to Democracy Now !
What has the coronavirus pandemic exposed about education in America ?
NOLIWE ROOKS : Well , first of all , thank you so much for having me .
I think , as we ’ ve seen in so many other areas , the pandemic is exposing , just shining a light on , inequalities that are already there , as we see people who are impacted , who are falling ill , tend to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , Latinx .
The children who are suffering the most with this closing down of schools share similar kinds of demographics .
One of the things that is perplexing — and hopefully we can come out of the other end of this really taking this seriously — is we had absolutely no conversation .
There were no emergency plans for closing of schools , for ceasing education .
When it became clear that it was putting teachers and students and , as you mentioned , the numbers of educational workers who have lost @ @ @ @ @ @ @ stay in classrooms , we had no plans for what happens if you take schooling offline .
We quickly , across the country , New York City and elsewhere , decided on remote education .
There are two things about that that are particularly disturbing .
One , the fact that something as central to communities , as central to children , as central to vulnerable communities as public education — public education is not just about education for vulnerable communities .
It ’ s also about healthcare .
It ’ s also @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s about — for some kids , it ’ s about where you get your clothes washed .
It ’ s about where you get the food you ’ re going to eat during the day .
To take something that central offline , in a hodgepodge , in a rush , without even thinking that disaster preparation should account for , like , what we do in the absence .
The second thing is , what we have put in place instead of in-person education is online schooling .
What education scholars @ @ @ @ @ @ @ even an open question anymore — know is online education advantages some children and disadvantages , severely disadvantages , others .
Communities that can not have easy access to fast , to stable internet , it matters .
The ways that those children are able to learn , to keep up , to have their learning abilities evaluated , you just can ’ t do it as easily .
A majority of poor Black and Latinx families access their internet through their phone , so there ’ s additional charges that are racked @ @ @ @ @ @ @ phones to try to access learning .
We know that .
We also know that in terms of standardized tests , in terms of closing gaps in educational learning , online learning consistently performs worse than any other delivery method .
We know that from 20 years ’ worth of research .
It ’ s not something new .
So , in this moment of crisis — which it was a crisis — something had to happen .
You know , it wasn ’ t — couldn ’ t be planned for .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
We both shut down schools in a way that further harmed certain kids , and we instituted a kind of learning that ’ s going to cause an educational pandemic once these schools reopen .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : Well , Professor Rooks , I wanted to ask you .
At Rutgers University , one of my teams — I teach investigative reporting .
I had — one of my teams , that ’ s doing a project on the coronavirus , did a survey of several hundred Rutgers students precisely on this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ figures they came up with were astounding .
Eighty-five percent of the students who responded to the survey said that their ability to concentrate , in the shift to online classes — 85 % of them said — was extremely affected or very much affected .
And also , 71 % of them said that their home environment was poor for being able to actually participate in the classes , in online classes .
So , there is a — this is at the university level .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : Now take this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Your sense of the impact that this is having even on the ability of students to learn ?
NOLIWE ROOKS : Right .
You know , we ’ re seeing things like children who are sitting on a sidewalk in front of a McDonald ’ s because there ’ s stable Wi-Fi there , looking for some Wi-Fi so that they can in fact complete the assignments .
They want to learn .
They want to keep up .
They want to do well .
But this form of education makes it difficult @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , I have students all across the socioeconomic spectrum in my classes .
I have students who went back to homes that were housing insecure in New York City , in various family shelters , where the Wi-Fi is spotty at best .
And I have students whose families became involved in ICE actions in the period between the declaration of the emergency and when they had to go home , and trying to navigate all of that ; and now students , you know , whose parents are unemployed , whose family @ @ @ @ @ @ @ know , as you do , firsthand , from a college perspective , how disruptive this is .
It ’ s not a leap to think , you know , students who were already at risk , who were already vulnerable , who were already in families worried about their ability to make ends meet , we now have an economic crisis on top of the public health crisis .
And the ways that we ’ re choosing to educate children is simply unequal and is going to lead to an educational crisis @ @ @ @ @ @ @ other side .
You can not ask students to perform well with a medium that requires a lot of concentration .
You really have to pay attention , and you have to know how to make your computer work if it goes off .
You have to know what to do if your Wi-Fi all of a sudden goes down , in the midst of trying to learn new concepts , of trying to learn foundational knowledge that you ’ re going to need to continue to move through the educational system .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ on top of disruption for communities and children who can least afford it .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : I ’ m also wondering if you ’ ve been following the experiment that Los Angeles — unlike many of the other places around the country , in Los Angeles , the local public television station immediately switched to having different bands of its spectrum to provide instruction to different classes .
I haven ’ t heard this happening in many other places around the country , using public television , which is obviously accessible to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to get instruction out to students .
NOLIWE ROOKS : That ’ s a great idea .
And that is — no , I have not heard about that , and I had not been following it .
I do know , all over the country , though , you are seeing businesses , parents , activists and families get together to talk about what would work best for them , what they think needs to happen .
There have been some calls for allowing children to access the Wi-Fi in public schools @ @ @ @ @ @ @ take place in New York City public schools for a variety of reasons , but is it the case that children on school grounds could not access that Wi-Fi in order to have something stable ?
There are people who are asking for creativity in this moment .
And certainly , as we think about what happens on the other side , we don ’ t know when schools are going to open up again .
We don ’ t know what form .
We don ’ t know .
But we know @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a other side of this .
And as we reach that other side , I ’ m hopeful that we do not repeat some of the unintentional mistakes that were made when we shut things down , when we did not ask , school by school , neighborhood by neighborhood , “ What do you need from us ?
” What is it that — give them a seat at the table .
Give folks who are most impacted a seat at the table and say , just ask the question , “ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ online in a way that does not disadvantage your children ?
What do you know that we need to know ?
” And I think we ’ re at a point in the crisis where we need that kind of creativity and collaboration .
AMY GOODMAN : What about the mental health of young people right now , who are at home , who , you know , in a lot of cases , either they don ’ t have access to screens or their parents didn ’ t want them to , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ?
And also , this vision you have of the future ?
You have the president of Brown University saying if schools don ’ t reopen in the fall — higher education — higher education is imperiled .
AMY GOODMAN : Now , most kids go to public schools — AMY GOODMAN : — whether we ’ re talking about community colleges , whether we ’ re talking about public universities .
What about all of this , that we don ’ t even know what ’ s going to happen , and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ endowments that the Ivy Leagues have versus the rest of higher education in this country ?
Are we going to see a closing of hundreds of schools ?
NOLIWE ROOKS : Right .
You know , one of the things — the conversation about higher education is sort of mirroring the conversation that we ’ re having about K-12 in that we ’ re tending to — we ’ re not .
Our public policy , our sense of urgency is not around children who are most in need or institutions that are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
The vast majority , well over 50 % , well over 60 % , of Black and Latinx kids who get BAs , who get college degrees , do so at community colleges or for-profit universities , not at four-year institutions , and certainly not at schools like one that I teach — in which I teach .
But the conversation about reopening colleges and universities has so far excluded community colleges almost wholly .
I ’ m hearing very little in the national media about what is the impact on community @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are actually being served .
It ’ s a similar phenomena that you ’ re finding with K-12 , where there ’ s almost no conversation about the kind and the quality of instruction that ’ s even taking place online based on the socioeconomic background of the kids .
Some kids are having — some of the plans entail them having limited — like 40 minutes a week or two 40-minute sessions a week , that actually involve the computer .
And the rest of the times , not even online , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , are being given different kinds of worksheets and plans , and they are being asked to step in and to help ensure that kids are completing this work .
The parents have different abilities to offer that kind of help .
So , in both K-12 as well as in higher education , as is so often the case , our public policy is not starting from the bottom up .
It ’ s starting from the top down .
It ’ s starting with what works best .
In a time @ @ @ @ @ @ @ impacted , it ’ s still asking , “ What works best for the most wealthy ?
” AMY GOODMAN : Well , of course , this is a conversation that we ’ ll have to continue .
Noliwe Rooks , we want to thank you for joining us , the W.E.B .
Du Bois professor of literature at Cornell University , author of Cutting School : Privatization , Segregation , and the End of Public Education .
That does it for our broadcast .
Democracy Now !
is working with as few @ @ @ @ @ @ @ majority of our amazing team is working from home .
I ’ m Amy Goodman , with Juan González , for another edition of Democracy Now !
, democracynow.org .
Stay safe .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The Quarantine Report. I’m Amy Goodman in New York. Juan González is co-hosting from New Jersey, as we turn to the impact of the pandemic on schools, universities, students, parents, teachers and professors. Here in New York City, the epicenter of the pandemic, home to the largest school district in the United States, public schools have been closed since March 16th. At least 68 Education Department staffers have died from coronavirus, including 28 teachers, 25 teacher’s assistants, also administrators, office workers, school aides, food service workers, guidance counselors, a parent coordinator and a technology specialist.
On Tuesday, New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio announced a new grading system for the rest of the coronavirus-disrupted school year and said some so-called underperforming students may be enrolled in virtual summer school. This is is Mayor de Blasio.
MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO: We want to make sure the grading policy we use now fits the moment we’re in now and the reality of our kids, our parents, our educators now. So, the chancellor, his team worked with parents, teachers, elected officials, advocates, listened to all different viewpoints. We’ve had a series of conversations confirming the direction of this policy. And it came down to the notion of what we owe our kids at this moment: first of all, flexibility.
AMY GOODMAN: This comes as the Los Angeles Unified School District, the second-largest school system in the U.S., has announced no student will receive an F grade. California Governor Gavin Newsom said the state’s academic year could start in late July or early August, and some K-through-12 campuses may reopen to offer summer school programs.
Meanwhile, here in New York, at least 12, and possibly as many as 17, faculty and staff in the public City University of New York system have died since the coronavirus pandemic began, including five at Brooklyn College. This comes as universities nationwide face massive financial losses from closing down their campuses and moving instruction online during the pandemic.
For more on all this, we’re joined by education scholar Noliwe Rooks, the W.E.B. Du Bois professor of literature at Cornell University, where she’s also director of American studies and a professor in Africana studies. She’s the author of Cutting School: Privatization, Segregation, and the End of Public Education, joining us from her home in Ithaca, New York. She’ll be the featured guest tonight at a virtual community conversation on the future of public schools in Queens after COVID-19.
Professor Rooks, welcome to Democracy Now! What has the coronavirus pandemic exposed about education in America?
NOLIWE ROOKS: Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me.
I think, as we’ve seen in so many other areas, the pandemic is exposing, just shining a light on, inequalities that are already there, as we see people who are impacted, who are falling ill, tend to be poor, tend to be Black, Latinx. The children who are suffering the most with this closing down of schools share similar kinds of demographics.
One of the things that is perplexing — and hopefully we can come out of the other end of this really taking this seriously — is we had absolutely no conversation. There were no emergency plans for closing of schools, for ceasing education. When it became clear that it was putting teachers and students and, as you mentioned, the numbers of educational workers who have lost their lives or fallen ill attempting to stay in classrooms, we had no plans for what happens if you take schooling offline. We quickly, across the country, New York City and elsewhere, decided on remote education.
There are two things about that that are particularly disturbing. One, the fact that something as central to communities, as central to children, as central to vulnerable communities as public education — public education is not just about education for vulnerable communities. It’s also about healthcare. It’s also about mental health stability. It’s about — for some kids, it’s about where you get your clothes washed. It’s about where you get the food you’re going to eat during the day. To take something that central offline, in a hodgepodge, in a rush, without even thinking that disaster preparation should account for, like, what we do in the absence.
The second thing is, what we have put in place instead of in-person education is online schooling. What education scholars, what scholars — this is not even an open question anymore — know is online education advantages some children and disadvantages, severely disadvantages, others. Communities that cannot have easy access to fast, to stable internet, it matters. The ways that those children are able to learn, to keep up, to have their learning abilities evaluated, you just can’t do it as easily. A majority of poor Black and Latinx families access their internet through their phone, so there’s additional charges that are racked up when they have to use their phones to try to access learning. We know that. We also know that in terms of standardized tests, in terms of closing gaps in educational learning, online learning consistently performs worse than any other delivery method. We know that from 20 years’ worth of research. It’s not something new.
So, in this moment of crisis — which it was a crisis — something had to happen. You know, it wasn’t — couldn’t be planned for. That’s what a disaster is. We both shut down schools in a way that further harmed certain kids, and we instituted a kind of learning that’s going to cause an educational pandemic once these schools reopen.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, Professor Rooks, I wanted to ask you. At Rutgers University, one of my teams — I teach investigative reporting. I had — one of my teams, that’s doing a project on the coronavirus, did a survey of several hundred Rutgers students precisely on this issue of remote teaching. And the figures they came up with were astounding. Eighty-five percent of the students who responded to the survey said that their ability to concentrate, in the shift to online classes — 85% of them said — was extremely affected or very much affected. And also, 71% of them said that their home environment was poor for being able to actually participate in the classes, in online classes. So, there is a — this is at the university level.
NOLIWE ROOKS: Right.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Now take this down to the public school level. Your sense of the impact that this is having even on the ability of students to learn?
NOLIWE ROOKS: Right. You know, we’re seeing things like children who are sitting on a sidewalk in front of a McDonald’s because there’s stable Wi-Fi there, looking for some Wi-Fi so that they can in fact complete the assignments. They want to learn. They want to keep up. They want to do well. But this form of education makes it difficult.
Much like your students at Rutgers, I have students all across the socioeconomic spectrum in my classes. I have students who went back to homes that were housing insecure in New York City, in various family shelters, where the Wi-Fi is spotty at best. And I have students whose families became involved in ICE actions in the period between the declaration of the emergency and when they had to go home, and trying to navigate all of that; and now students, you know, whose parents are unemployed, whose family members have died. So, I know, as you do, firsthand, from a college perspective, how disruptive this is.
It’s not a leap to think, you know, students who were already at risk, who were already vulnerable, who were already in families worried about their ability to make ends meet, we now have an economic crisis on top of the public health crisis. And the ways that we’re choosing to educate children is simply unequal and is going to lead to an educational crisis, an educational pandemic, on the other side.
You cannot ask students to perform well with a medium that requires a lot of concentration. You really have to pay attention, and you have to know how to make your computer work if it goes off. You have to know what to do if your Wi-Fi all of a sudden goes down, in the midst of trying to learn new concepts, of trying to learn foundational knowledge that you’re going to need to continue to move through the educational system. It is disruption on top of disruption on top of disruption for communities and children who can least afford it.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: I’m also wondering if you’ve been following the experiment that Los Angeles — unlike many of the other places around the country, in Los Angeles, the local public television station immediately switched to having different bands of its spectrum to provide instruction to different classes. I haven’t heard this happening in many other places around the country, using public television, which is obviously accessible to many more people, to be able to get instruction out to students.
NOLIWE ROOKS: That’s a great idea. And that is — no, I have not heard about that, and I had not been following it.
I do know, all over the country, though, you are seeing businesses, parents, activists and families get together to talk about what would work best for them, what they think needs to happen. There have been some calls for allowing children to access the Wi-Fi in public schools. We can’t have instruction take place in New York City public schools for a variety of reasons, but is it the case that children on school grounds could not access that Wi-Fi in order to have something stable? There are people who are asking for creativity in this moment.
And certainly, as we think about what happens on the other side, we don’t know when schools are going to open up again. We don’t know what form. We don’t know. But we know that there’s going to be a other side of this. And as we reach that other side, I’m hopeful that we do not repeat some of the unintentional mistakes that were made when we shut things down, when we did not ask, school by school, neighborhood by neighborhood, “What do you need from us?” What is it that — give them a seat at the table. Give folks who are most impacted a seat at the table and say, just ask the question, “How can we bring these schools back online in a way that does not disadvantage your children? What do you know that we need to know?” And I think we’re at a point in the crisis where we need that kind of creativity and collaboration.
AMY GOODMAN: What about the mental health of young people right now, who are at home, who, you know, in a lot of cases, either they don’t have access to screens or their parents didn’t want them to, now of course online all the time? And also, this vision you have of the future? You have the president of Brown University saying if schools don’t reopen in the fall — higher education — higher education is imperiled.
NOLIWE ROOKS: Right.
AMY GOODMAN: Now, most kids go to public schools —
NOLIWE ROOKS: Exactly.
AMY GOODMAN: — whether we’re talking about community colleges, whether we’re talking about public universities. What about all of this, that we don’t even know what’s going to happen, and the inequitable, very different kind of endowments that the Ivy Leagues have versus the rest of higher education in this country? Are we going to see a closing of hundreds of schools?
NOLIWE ROOKS: Right. You know, one of the things — the conversation about higher education is sort of mirroring the conversation that we’re having about K-12 in that we’re tending to — we’re not. Our public policy, our sense of urgency is not around children who are most in need or institutions that are serving children who are most in need.
The vast majority, well over 50%, well over 60%, of Black and Latinx kids who get BAs, who get college degrees, do so at community colleges or for-profit universities, not at four-year institutions, and certainly not at schools like one that I teach — in which I teach. But the conversation about reopening colleges and universities has so far excluded community colleges almost wholly. I’m hearing very little in the national media about what is the impact on community colleges, where most of these kids are actually being served.
It’s a similar phenomena that you’re finding with K-12, where there’s almost no conversation about the kind and the quality of instruction that’s even taking place online based on the socioeconomic background of the kids. Some kids are having — some of the plans entail them having limited — like 40 minutes a week or two 40-minute sessions a week, that actually involve the computer. And the rest of the times, not even online, parents are being asked to step in, are being given different kinds of worksheets and plans, and they are being asked to step in and to help ensure that kids are completing this work. The parents have different abilities to offer that kind of help.
So, in both K-12 as well as in higher education, as is so often the case, our public policy is not starting from the bottom up. It’s starting from the top down. It’s starting with what works best. In a time of crisis when we’re all impacted, it’s still asking, “What works best for the most wealthy?”
AMY GOODMAN: Well, of course, this is a conversation that we’ll have to continue. Noliwe Rooks, we want to thank you for joining us, the W.E.B. Du Bois professor of literature at Cornell University, author of Cutting School: Privatization, Segregation, and the End of Public Education.
That does it for our broadcast. Democracy Now! is working with as few people on site as possible. The majority of our amazing team is working from home. I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan González, for another edition of Democracy Now!, democracynow.org. Stay safe.