democracynow--2020-01-02--Death Toll Rises in India as Protests Against Modi Government's Citizenship Law Intensify

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : Music by Madara , released at the height of the protests in India .
The video has gone viral .
This is Democracy Now !
I ’ m Amy Goodman , with Nermeen Shaikh .
NERMEEN SHAIKH : We end today ’ s show in India , where the death toll amid the government ’ s crackdown on widespread protests has risen to at least 27 people , with over a thousand more arrested .
The protests are against the controversial new @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to Indian citizenship for undocumented immigrants from Afghanistan , Bangladesh and Pakistan — unless they are Muslim .
Opponents of the law say it ’ s a step toward the official marginalization of India ’ s 200 million Muslims .
Paramilitary and police forces were deployed in response to the protests in Muslim-majority districts in Uttar Pradesh and New Delhi , and the internet was shut down .
AMY GOODMAN : For more , we go to Mumbai , where we ’ re joined via Democracy Now !
video stream by Rana Ayyub @ @ @ @ @ @ @ global opinions writer for The Washington Post .
Her most recent piece is headlined “ India ’ s protests could be a tipping point against authoritarianism.
” Rana , welcome to Democracy Now !
Explain .
RANA AYYUB : Thank you , Amy .
Well , for the longest time , I mean , this government ’ s attack on the Muslim minorities , which constitute about 250 million Muslims in the country — in the first five years of Mr. Modi ’ s regime , there were lynchings of Muslims on the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ beef or various other allegations that Muslim men are marrying non-Muslim women , so they would be lynched in the streets .
There was a great deal of dog whistle from the prime minister of the country , from the home minister of the country .
Laws were being introduced .
So , the first five years of Mr. Modi ’ s regime was a dog whistle .
The second term , which Mr. Modi has just begun , is about a brazen consolidation of the Hindu vote .
And so far , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ majoritarian views are very passive , especially Muslims in the country .
They have been — they have been very silent .
They have not been a part of any protest , despite the fact of the government bringing one majoritarian act after the other .
In August this year , there was a clampdown in Kashmir , where the kind of special status of Kashmir was revoked , followed by the Supreme Court judgment in the Babri Masjid ruling , where now a massive temple will be built — and that ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ — to the citizenship amendment bill , in conjunction with the National Register of Citizens , wherein every persecuted minority from the neighboring area , neighboring countries , will be given citizenship , except Muslims .
Now , everything , if you see it in totality , is an attempt to create a Hindu nation , a country which will no longer remain a secular democracy .
But for the first time , there seems to be an attempt by the citizens of the country , especially Muslims , who are out in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they ’ re wearing their skullcaps , women in hijab — they are stepping out .
I mean , the protest in Mumbai , which is largely — which is largely a really indifferent city to protest or to civil rebellion , that protest in Mumbai saw close to 200,000 people participating , reading the Constitution of this country , protesting against the prime minister and the home minister of the country .
So it ’ s a good sign .
It is a tipping point against authoritarianism , because Mr. Modi has @ @ @ @ @ @ @ wall .
They have been silent for the last six years , but I think they have chosen now to break the silence , because Mr. Modi is seeking to delegitimize their existence or actually make them second-class citizens in their own country , where they and their forefathers have lived .
These are the same Muslims who chose India over Pakistan in 1947 during the partition .
So , there is this everyday humiliation which Muslims in this country are witnessing .
And it ’ s heartening to see that in the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ country , it ’ s not just Muslims , but also non-Muslims who are standing in solidarity with them to protect the very idea of India , which we have been celebrating for decades , Gandhi ’ s India , which has been nonviolent , which helped raise the secular traditions of this country , the syncretic culture of this country , which now is under threat by Mr. Narendra Modi ’ s government .
NERMEEN SHAIKH : Rana Ayyub , can you explain , though ?
I mean , as you were @ @ @ @ @ @ @ India that have been taking place , is there any indication , though , that the Modi government is likely to withdraw or modify the Citizenship Amendment Act or the NRC or , indeed , not to push through subsequent proposals , like the uniform civil code ?
Has Amit Shah , the interior minister , or anyone else in the Modi government responded to the protests by suggesting that they ’ ll compromise ?
RANA AYYUB : Not yet .
In fact , the government has turned a blind eye to the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the last three weeks itself , out of which 20 lives — you know , 20 were murdered in the province of Uttar Pradesh , which is ruled by a BJP chief minister .
It ’ s become like a prestige issue .
And Mr. Modi and Mr. Amit Shah , the prime minister and the home minister , did not anticipate this backlash , because they were seeing a very passive Indian citizenry which was not objecting to one majoritarian bill after the other being introduced in the country in the Indian @ @ @ @ @ @ @ push one more bill .
But they did not anticipate this backlash .
Having said that , I think the government has decided to brazen this out .
They are — their target audience is the majority-Hindu population , to whom it is trying to communicate that “ We are fighting , and people are protesting against our decision to give you the right of Hindu supremacy.
” So , it doesn ’ t look like the government is going to roll back this act yet .
There is immense pressure on the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ itself , and that ’ s a great sign .
But I don ’ t see them revoking this , because the government has decided to brazen this out .
They ’ re also planning to introduce two more bills : the population control bill and the uniform civil code , which again is an attack on the Indian minorities , because there ’ s this misconception , and there ’ s this — you know , as we call it , the WhatsApp fake information , which is being spread by the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in this country are producing more children than the Hindus , and they will take over India by 2050 .
And , you know , this kind of fake news has been a part of the BJP machinery .
You know , their leaders keep spreading — they keep talking about this in their tweets and social media .
So , they have decided to brazen this out by introducing two more bills .
Now , it will — one has to wait and see how do the protests then impact the government @ @ @ @ @ @ @ already taken a violent form in Uttar Pradesh , where the chief minister of Uttar Pradesh said that “ I will take revenge on the protesters , ” and two days later , 20 Muslims were slaughtered in a span of two nights .
A police officer is heard telling the protesters that “ If you want to protest , go to Pakistan , ” which is basically , you know , you ’ re implying that Muslims only belong in Pakistan if they have to protest .
A student hostel , which @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a hundred orphans , was attacked by the police forces .
Now , the teacher , who is a Muslim cleric , was stripped naked .
AMY GOODMAN : Rana , we have five seconds .
RANA AYYUB : He was stripped naked .
So , there is — Mr. Modi ’ s response to the protests has been a backlash and violence against Muslims in the country .
And that is a worrying sign at this point of time for India , the violence , the anti-Muslim violence , in response to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , we will link to your piece in The Washington Post , “ India ’ s protests could be a tipping point against authoritarianism.
” Rana Ayyub , Indian journalist , global opinions writer for The Washington Post .
We thank you so much for being with us .
I ’ ll be speaking Friday night at the Quad Cinema in New York after the showing of Advocate , which has just been shortlisted for an Oscar , interviewing the filmmakers .
I ’ m Amy Goodman , with Nermeen Shaikh .
Happy @ @ @

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: Music by Madara, released at the height of the protests in India. The video has gone viral. This is Democracy Now! I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: We end today’s show in India, where the death toll amid the government’s crackdown on widespread protests has risen to at least 27 people, with over a thousand more arrested. The protests are against the controversial new citizenship law, which provides a path to Indian citizenship for undocumented immigrants from Afghanistan, Bangladesh and Pakistan — unless they are Muslim. Opponents of the law say it’s a step toward the official marginalization of India’s 200 million Muslims. Paramilitary and police forces were deployed in response to the protests in Muslim-majority districts in Uttar Pradesh and New Delhi, and the internet was shut down.
AMY GOODMAN: For more, we go to Mumbai, where we’re joined via Democracy Now! video stream by Rana Ayyub, Indian journalist who’s a global opinions writer for The Washington Post. Her most recent piece is headlined “India’s protests could be a tipping point against authoritarianism.”
Rana, welcome to Democracy Now! Explain.
RANA AYYUB: Thank you, Amy. Well, for the longest time, I mean, this government’s attack on the Muslim minorities, which constitute about 250 million Muslims in the country — in the first five years of Mr. Modi’s regime, there were lynchings of Muslims on the accusation of, you know, consuming beef or various other allegations that Muslim men are marrying non-Muslim women, so they would be lynched in the streets. There was a great deal of dog whistle from the prime minister of the country, from the home minister of the country. Laws were being introduced. So, the first five years of Mr. Modi’s regime was a dog whistle.
The second term, which Mr. Modi has just begun, is about a brazen consolidation of the Hindu vote. And so far, those who oppose Mr. Modi’s majoritarian views are very passive, especially Muslims in the country. They have been — they have been very silent. They have not been a part of any protest, despite the fact of the government bringing one majoritarian act after the other. In August this year, there was a clampdown in Kashmir, where the kind of special status of Kashmir was revoked, followed by the Supreme Court judgment in the Babri Masjid ruling, where now a massive temple will be built — and that’s on the BJP’s agenda — to the citizenship amendment bill, in conjunction with the National Register of Citizens, wherein every persecuted minority from the neighboring area, neighboring countries, will be given citizenship, except Muslims.
Now, everything, if you see it in totality, is an attempt to create a Hindu nation, a country which will no longer remain a secular democracy. But for the first time, there seems to be an attempt by the citizens of the country, especially Muslims, who are out in the streets with symbols of religion — they’re wearing their skullcaps, women in hijab — they are stepping out. I mean, the protest in Mumbai, which is largely — which is largely a really indifferent city to protest or to civil rebellion, that protest in Mumbai saw close to 200,000 people participating, reading the Constitution of this country, protesting against the prime minister and the home minister of the country.
So it’s a good sign. It is a tipping point against authoritarianism, because Mr. Modi has driven Muslims of this country to the wall. They have been silent for the last six years, but I think they have chosen now to break the silence, because Mr. Modi is seeking to delegitimize their existence or actually make them second-class citizens in their own country, where they and their forefathers have lived. These are the same Muslims who chose India over Pakistan in 1947 during the partition. So, there is this everyday humiliation which Muslims in this country are witnessing. And it’s heartening to see that in the protests that are happening all over the country, it’s not just Muslims, but also non-Muslims who are standing in solidarity with them to protect the very idea of India, which we have been celebrating for decades, Gandhi’s India, which has been nonviolent, which helped raise the secular traditions of this country, the syncretic culture of this country, which now is under threat by Mr. Narendra Modi’s government.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Rana Ayyub, can you explain, though? I mean, as you were saying, these massive protests all over India that have been taking place, is there any indication, though, that the Modi government is likely to withdraw or modify the Citizenship Amendment Act or the NRC or, indeed, not to push through subsequent proposals, like the uniform civil code? Has Amit Shah, the interior minister, or anyone else in the Modi government responded to the protests by suggesting that they’ll compromise?
RANA AYYUB: Not yet. In fact, the government has turned a blind eye to the 27 lives that have been lost in the last three weeks itself, out of which 20 lives — you know, 20 were murdered in the province of Uttar Pradesh, which is ruled by a BJP chief minister. It’s become like a prestige issue. And Mr. Modi and Mr. Amit Shah, the prime minister and the home minister, did not anticipate this backlash, because they were seeing a very passive Indian citizenry which was not objecting to one majoritarian bill after the other being introduced in the country in the Indian Parliament, so they thought they could push one more bill. But they did not anticipate this backlash.
Having said that, I think the government has decided to brazen this out. They are — their target audience is the majority-Hindu population, to whom it is trying to communicate that “We are fighting, and people are protesting against our decision to give you the right of Hindu supremacy.” So, it doesn’t look like the government is going to roll back this act yet. There is immense pressure on the Indian government. The protests have sustained itself, and that’s a great sign. But I don’t see them revoking this, because the government has decided to brazen this out.
They’re also planning to introduce two more bills: the population control bill and the uniform civil code, which again is an attack on the Indian minorities, because there’s this misconception, and there’s this — you know, as we call it, the WhatsApp fake information, which is being spread by the BJP and its affiliates, that Muslims in this country are producing more children than the Hindus, and they will take over India by 2050. And, you know, this kind of fake news has been a part of the BJP machinery. You know, their leaders keep spreading — they keep talking about this in their tweets and social media. So, they have decided to brazen this out by introducing two more bills.
Now, it will — one has to wait and see how do the protests then impact the government’s decision, because they have already taken a violent form in Uttar Pradesh, where the chief minister of Uttar Pradesh said that “I will take revenge on the protesters,” and two days later, 20 Muslims were slaughtered in a span of two nights. A police officer is heard telling the protesters that “If you want to protest, go to Pakistan,” which is basically, you know, you’re implying that Muslims only belong in Pakistan if they have to protest. A student hostel, which was home to orphans, close to a hundred orphans, was attacked by the police forces. Now, the teacher, who is a Muslim cleric, was stripped naked.
AMY GOODMAN: Rana, we have five seconds.
RANA AYYUB: He was stripped naked. So, there is — Mr. Modi’s response to the protests has been a backlash and violence against Muslims in the country. And that is a worrying sign at this point of time for India, the violence, the anti-Muslim violence, in response to the protests.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, we will link to your piece in The Washington Post, “India’s protests could be a tipping point against authoritarianism.” Rana Ayyub, Indian journalist, global opinions writer for The Washington Post. We thank you so much for being with us.
I’ll be speaking Friday night at the Quad Cinema in New York after the showing of Advocate, which has just been shortlisted for an Oscar, interviewing the filmmakers. I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh. Happy News Year!


democracynow--2020-01-02--"The Genocidal Regime Is Still in Power": Assad Forces Push into Idlib, Last Rebel Stronghold

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
, democracynow.org , The War and Peace Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman , with Nermeen Shaikh .
NERMEEN SHAIKH : We turn now to Syria , where aid workers say Syrian government artillery fire killed at least nine civilians , including five children , on New Year ’ s Day in the northwestern province of Idlib , which is facing a heavy bombing and ground offensive by the Russian-backed Assad regime .
At least 16 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : Over the last month , nearly 300,000 civilians have been forced to flee the Syrian government ’ s offensive against Idlib , which is home to about 3 million civilians , three-quarters of whom are women and children .
At least two hospitals and 14 health centers have been forced to close .
For more , we ’ re joined by two guests .
Via Democracy Now !
video stream in Gaziantep , Turkey , not far from the Syrian border , Yassin al-Haj Saleh is with us , a Syrian writer @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And in Berkeley , California , Loubna Mrie , a Syrian writer , photographer and activist who has worked in Idlib from 2012 to ’ 14 for Reuters .
We welcome you both to Democracy Now !
Let ’ s go to Turkey first , to Yassin al-Haj Saleh .
Can you describe what ’ s taking place right now in Idlib ?
YASSIN AL-HAJ SALEH : Well , as you have just mentioned , Amy , there has been a Assadi offensive , backed by Russians , in December , since December @ @ @ @ @ @ @ million people displaced .
Ma ’ arat al-Nu ’ man , which is a town in Idlib with 100,000 people just a month ago , is completely — the population are completely displaced .
And the fortunate among them were the ones who were able to find a car or something to flee the bombers ’ and the jet fighters ’ attacks .
Most of these people are now in camps , not helped by the — with no aid from the U.N. agencies , because , you know , the Russians and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ U.N. Security Council just a few days ago , and the decision — the talks at the Security Council were about humanitarian aid deliveries without control of the Syrian regime .
So , it is extremely paradoxical that people are displaced by the Syrian regime , and the Russians want the Syrian regime to control the aid deliveries .
But let me say that it is this round of Russian-Assadi war is only one in a almost nine-years war with a death toll that I think exceeds 600,000 people .
And it was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ face a popular uprising for change and for democracy and for freedom .
We know that 6 millions , and maybe 6 millions and a half , are displaced outside Syria in the neighboring countries , and with almost 1 million in Europe .
What ’ s happening in Idlib is only one month of this more than 105 months of a second Assadi war .
When I was young myself , there was a smaller war with a death toll of tens of thousands , and tens of thousands in jail .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ time .
And now it is a bigger thing .
The most sinister thing about the situation in Syria is that the genocidal regime is still in power .
Actually , it is more powerful now than ever , because now it is a protectorate of the Russians and the Iranians , with many substate actors also defending the regime , from Lebanon , you know , Hezbollah , from Iraq , from other countries .
So , it is different from other genocides we have seen , we saw already in the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
YASSIN AL-HAJ SALEH : It was — yeah .
It was huge there , but the Nazis were toppled .
In Cambodia , it was big , but the Khmer Rouge regime was toppled .
In Rwanda , there was an evil genocide , but the regime was toppled .
In Syria , the regime is being reinstalled by Russians and rehabilitated .
And one can only expect that around that we may see in future the victims will be in millions .
NERMEEN SHAIKH : Well , Yassin , of course @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and its Russian backers is that Idlib has been controlled by a jihadist group , and this is the last area in which they ’ re powerful , and so this assault is to oust them .
Your response to that ?
YASSIN AL-HAJ SALEH : Well , why schools and hospitals are being attacked ?
Is this for liberating the civilians from a terrorist organization ?
It is a terrorist and nihilist organization indeed , I mean Jabhat al-Nusra or Hayat Tahrir al-Sham in Idlib .
But when you target hospitals , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ York Times report has shown today , it is to — the aim is to displace the population , not to liberate them , not to help them against terrorists .
And it has been .
We know that it has been the norm , actually , in all these almost nine years .
Actually , I think we have really terrorist organization , Daesh in the past and Jabhat al-Nusra today , but the regime needs this to justify it is inviting Russians and the Iranians and to stay in power forever @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we know that not a Russian speaker or Assad speaker defended the people or called for a special tribunal for the terrorists in Daesh .
And not a single American , by the way , or a U.N. speaker has called for a special tribunal for justice for the victims of terrorism .
I am myself from Raqqa .
I was from Raqqa , and I lived there for some time .
And my brother disappeared more than six years ago , and many of my friends .
Not a word .
Not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , by U.N. officials about the fate of our loved ones .
So , it is not about it , about the war against terrorism .
It is only a pretext for sovereignty for power agencies , like the Assad regime , Russia , Iran .
And it is helping everybody to be a fighter against terrorism — the Israeli government , the American administration , the Russians , the Iranians , the Assad genocidal regime .
It is only a pretext .
They are not helping us against terrorism .
And you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ % of the Syrian victims fell at the hands of the Assad regime and its protectors .
AMY GOODMAN : You wrote an article , Yassin , called “ Terror , genocide , and a 'genocratic ' turn.
” Explain what you mean by “ genocratic.
” YASSIN AL-HAJ SALEH : Well , it is — I built this from “ genos.
” You know , it means tribe or race , or it is the word that ’ s used in “ genocide.
” I want to say that now it is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ about the options of the people .
It is about culture .
Racism now is taking this cultural guise .
And it is the rule of cultural majorities , or minorities , like in Syria .
And it is the infrastructure for genocide .
They are using this grand narrative about the “ war on terror ” to justify weakening democracy to empower those who are already powerful , and to weaken popular movements and ordinary people and independent organizations and civil society .
And the world now is in this bleak shape @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
This is happening in the U.S. itself , when Trump was elected .
It ’ s happening in India .
They are using the same narrative about the “ war on terror.
” It ’ s happening against the Muslims in China .
And it is everywhere in the world .
So , democracy is now in a crisis because it is not about democratic majorities .
It is about cultural or racial majorities , the white supremacists in Europe and the U.S. and Hindus in India .
And , by the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Arab world , I mean , in the Middle East , it is the Islamists are genocratic .
They want a war because they are the majority .
It is happening in Israel , of course .
Israel , as we know , the basic law decides that Israel is the state of the Jewish people , so it is not a state of the citizens .
Palestinians are excluded from this .
So , this genocratic turn is taking global — is dominant globally now .
And it only promises us @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is becoming normalized , a political solution to many problems in the world .
And I ’ m sorry to say that in the West , in the U.S. , they have prepared the stage for this through developing , after post-Cold War , this discourse about the “ war on terror.
” AMY GOODMAN : Finally , Yassin , if you could talk about what happened to your wife , to your brother ?
We had interviewed , years ago , Razan Zaitouneh , who also disappeared .
And your wife and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Explain who they are .
YASSIN AL-HAJ SALEH : Well , Samira , Samira Khalil — the name of my wife — was a political prisoner for more than four years , between 1987 and 1991 .
At that time , I was myself in jail as a leftist .
Both of us were members of communist — two different communist parties in Syria , but opposing the regime .
Samira was an activist .
And she was with Razan , who ’ s a very well-known and highly respected human rights activist @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s husband and our friend , and human rights activist Nazem Hammadi , who ’ s also a poet .
They were there , and they were abducted , most probably by Jaysh al-Islam , who is a Salafi military formation in Douma .
They are now mercenaries of the Turkish government in the northern part of Syria .
We don ’ t know — unfortunately , we don ’ t know anything about their fate .
This happened — let me just say something about the context .
This happened after @ @ @ @ @ @ @ after the chemical deal .
It was a gift to the Middle East Islamist organizations , and it created a paranoia atmosphere everywhere in Syria .
So , they were the independent people , two women , independent women , without supporters , without — and who were politically active against the regime , were extremely visible in that region , which was besieged , completely besieged , by the Assad regime powers .
And my brother and other friends were abducted at the hands of Daesh in the same year , by @ @ @ @ @ @ @ period , in the summer of 2013 .
Paolo Dall ’ Oglio , the Italian religious figure , and the Syrian , who was at the same time a Syrian revolutionary , was abducted .
And my doctor and my friend , Ismail al-Hamed , was abducted .
So , it was part of this extremely inhuman situation that was inflicted on Syrians , and many criminal organizations that appeared in the country .
Hayat Tahrir al-Sham in Idlib is only one of these .
But the main thing is the Assad regime @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 50 years now , which is one-half of the whole modern history of Syria .
AMY GOODMAN : Well , we will certainly , Yassin , link to the article , your most recent piece , headlined “ The love of my life disappeared six years ago , but still I cling to hope , ” as we turn now to our next guest .
NERMEEN SHAIKH : So , Loubna , you are a Syrian writer and activist .
Your response to this latest offensive , the ongoing offensive in Idlib , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ civilians there ?
Seventy-six percent of the population there is a civilian population .
Turkey has largely closed its borders .
Where are these people to go ?
LOUBNA MRIE : Thank you so much for having me .
But before I answer this question , I think it ’ s very important to explain to your audience why the situation in Idlib today is pretty difficult and unique at the same time .
Idlib is the only Syrian province today that is outside the government control and not safeguarded by a foreign @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Turkey , which kind of puts — again , as I mentioned before , kind of puts Idlib in a difficult situation .
In the past years , most of the rebel-held areas that have fallen back under the Syrian government control , so many people who have been living in these rebel-held areas , especially those who feared the persecution of the Syrian government , have fled to Idlib , adding more than 400,000 to the pre-existing population of 3 million .
So , here we are talking about 3,400,000 civilians who @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you mentioned , Nermeen , the borders have been closed .
People are on the borders sleeping under olive trees , some people sleeping in their cars .
And there is no place to go .
I mean , in eastern Ghouta — you guys were talking with Yassin about eastern Ghouta — when eastern Ghouta happened , people knew that , OK , there might be a solution for these people to flee , which is Idlib .
But , sadly , today there is no other Idlib for these civilians to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
And I was talking to one of my good friends on New Year ’ s Eve just to make sure that he ’ s OK and he ’ s safe .
And he sadly mentioned that he has been sleeping with his wife and his 7-years-old daughter in the car on the Turkish borders .
And he told me he can not think of any solution .
He has been active against the Syrian government since 2012 .
And for him to leave — to live in a city or to live @ @ @ @ @ @ @ really possible .
And honestly , he just ended the conversation saying that he ’ s considering committing suicide .
That ’ s unsure .
The situation is horrible .
And no one knows what ’ s going to happen .
NERMEEN SHAIKH : And , Loubna , very quickly , before we conclude , has the Erdogan government , has Turkey said anything about allowing at least some people from Idlib to come into Turkey to seek refuge ?
LOUBNA MRIE : Honestly , if you guys have been following the news @ @ @ @ @ @ @ clear that they don ’ t want any Syrian refugees anymore in Turkey .
We have seen reports of deportations , mass deportations of Syrians being sent back to Syria and to Idlib .
And I don ’ t see — I don ’ t think Turkey might welcome any Syrian refugees .
People have been dying on the borders trying to cross to Turkey to seek refuge .
I don ’ t know if I can just add one point , if I have time , just to add one point .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ how the Syrian government is saying that they are only in Idlib to attack radical groups and HTS .
I just want to say that just — AMY GOODMAN : And explain what HTS is , Loubna .
LOUBNA MRIE : Oh , it ’ s Hayat Tahrir al-Sham .
It ’ s one of the radical groups today in Idlib , which the Syrian government has been using as a justification to attack civilians in Idlib .
I just want to say that , as I mentioned earlier , there is more @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to use HTS as a justification to attack 3 million civilians is really similar to the logic that Israel uses , and Israel and its supporters use , to justify their attacks on Gaza .
I think we should never justify attacks just because there is one radical group , to attack all civilians .
AMY GOODMAN : Well , Loubna Mrie , I want to thank you so much for being with us , Syrian writer , photographer , activist , who worked in Idlib from 2012 to ’ 14 for Reuters @ @ @ @ @ @ @ — her first book , about the war in Syria .
And we also want to thank Yassin al-Haj Saleh , speaking to us from Turkey .
When we come back , we go to India , where protests against the new anti-Muslim citizenship law continue despite the government crackdown that ’ s killed at least 27 people .
Stay with us .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: We turn now to Syria, where aid workers say Syrian government artillery fire killed at least nine civilians, including five children, on New Year’s Day in the northwestern province of Idlib, which is facing a heavy bombing and ground offensive by the Russian-backed Assad regime. At least 16 more civilians were injured.
AMY GOODMAN: Over the last month, nearly 300,000 civilians have been forced to flee the Syrian government’s offensive against Idlib, which is home to about 3 million civilians, three-quarters of whom are women and children. At least two hospitals and 14 health centers have been forced to close.
For more, we’re joined by two guests. Via Democracy Now! video stream in Gaziantep, Turkey, not far from the Syrian border, Yassin al-Haj Saleh is with us, a Syrian writer, dissident and former political prisoner. And in Berkeley, California, Loubna Mrie, a Syrian writer, photographer and activist who has worked in Idlib from 2012 to ’14 for Reuters.
We welcome you both to Democracy Now! Let’s go to Turkey first, to Yassin al-Haj Saleh. Can you describe what’s taking place right now in Idlib?
YASSIN AL-HAJ SALEH: Well, as you have just mentioned, Amy, there has been a Assadi offensive, backed by Russians, in December, since December, where more than one-quarter of a million people displaced. Ma’arat al-Nu’man, which is a town in Idlib with 100,000 people just a month ago, is completely — the population are completely displaced. And the fortunate among them were the ones who were able to find a car or something to flee the bombers’ and the jet fighters’ attacks.
Most of these people are now in camps, not helped by the — with no aid from the U.N. agencies, because, you know, the Russians and the Chinese used the veto at the U.N. Security Council just a few days ago, and the decision — the talks at the Security Council were about humanitarian aid deliveries without control of the Syrian regime. So, it is extremely paradoxical that people are displaced by the Syrian regime, and the Russians want the Syrian regime to control the aid deliveries.
But let me say that it is this round of Russian-Assadi war is only one in a almost nine-years war with a death toll that I think exceeds 600,000 people. And it was the method that the regime preferred to face a popular uprising for change and for democracy and for freedom. We know that 6 millions, and maybe 6 millions and a half, are displaced outside Syria in the neighboring countries, and with almost 1 million in Europe. What’s happening in Idlib is only one month of this more than 105 months of a second Assadi war. When I was young myself, there was a smaller war with a death toll of tens of thousands, and tens of thousands in jail. I was one of them at the time. And now it is a bigger thing.
The most sinister thing about the situation in Syria is that the genocidal regime is still in power. Actually, it is more powerful now than ever, because now it is a protectorate of the Russians and the Iranians, with many substate actors also defending the regime, from Lebanon, you know, Hezbollah, from Iraq, from other countries. So, it is different from other genocides we have seen, we saw already in the 20th century, like in Nazi Germany.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: [inaudible]
YASSIN AL-HAJ SALEH: It was — yeah. It was huge there, but the Nazis were toppled. In Cambodia, it was big, but the Khmer Rouge regime was toppled. In Rwanda, there was an evil genocide, but the regime was toppled. In Syria, the regime is being reinstalled by Russians and rehabilitated. And one can only expect that around that we may see in future the victims will be in millions.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, Yassin, of course, the justification of the Assad regime and its Russian backers is that Idlib has been controlled by a jihadist group, and this is the last area in which they’re powerful, and so this assault is to oust them. Your response to that?
YASSIN AL-HAJ SALEH: Well, why schools and hospitals are being attacked? Is this for liberating the civilians from a terrorist organization? It is a terrorist and nihilist organization indeed, I mean Jabhat al-Nusra or Hayat Tahrir al-Sham in Idlib. But when you target hospitals, markets and schools, as a New York Times report has shown today, it is to — the aim is to displace the population, not to liberate them, not to help them against terrorists. And it has been. We know that it has been the norm, actually, in all these almost nine years.
Actually, I think we have really terrorist organization, Daesh in the past and Jabhat al-Nusra today, but the regime needs this to justify it is inviting Russians and the Iranians and to stay in power forever, as they openly say. And we know that not a Russian speaker or Assad speaker defended the people or called for a special tribunal for the terrorists in Daesh. And not a single American, by the way, or a U.N. speaker has called for a special tribunal for justice for the victims of terrorism. I am myself from Raqqa. I was from Raqqa, and I lived there for some time. And my brother disappeared more than six years ago, and many of my friends. Not a word. Not a word we were talked by Americans, by U.N. officials about the fate of our loved ones.
So, it is not about it, about the war against terrorism. It is only a pretext for sovereignty for power agencies, like the Assad regime, Russia, Iran. And it is helping everybody to be a fighter against terrorism — the Israeli government, the American administration, the Russians, the Iranians, the Assad genocidal regime. It is only a pretext. They are not helping us against terrorism. And you know that maybe one — maybe 90% of the Syrian victims fell at the hands of the Assad regime and its protectors.
AMY GOODMAN: You wrote an article, Yassin, called “Terror, genocide, and a 'genocratic' turn.” Explain what you mean by “genocratic.”
YASSIN AL-HAJ SALEH: Well, it is — I built this from “genos.” You know, it means tribe or race, or it is the word that’s used in “genocide.” I want to say that now it is not about democracy. It is not about the options of the people. It is about culture. Racism now is taking this cultural guise. And it is the rule of cultural majorities, or minorities, like in Syria. And it is the infrastructure for genocide.
They are using this grand narrative about the “war on terror” to justify weakening democracy to empower those who are already powerful, and to weaken popular movements and ordinary people and independent organizations and civil society. And the world now is in this bleak shape because of the powerful is more powerful. This is happening in the U.S. itself, when Trump was elected. It’s happening in India. They are using the same narrative about the “war on terror.” It’s happening against the Muslims in China. And it is everywhere in the world.
So, democracy is now in a crisis because it is not about democratic majorities. It is about cultural or racial majorities, the white supremacists in Europe and the U.S. and Hindus in India. And, by the way, in our country, in the Arab world, I mean, in the Middle East, it is the Islamists are genocratic. They want a war because they are the majority. It is happening in Israel, of course. Israel, as we know, the basic law decides that Israel is the state of the Jewish people, so it is not a state of the citizens. Palestinians are excluded from this.
So, this genocratic turn is taking global — is dominant globally now. And it only promises us with genocides in the future. Genocide is becoming normalized, a political solution to many problems in the world. And I’m sorry to say that in the West, in the U.S., they have prepared the stage for this through developing, after post-Cold War, this discourse about the “war on terror.”
AMY GOODMAN: Finally, Yassin, if you could talk about what happened to your wife, to your brother? We had interviewed, years ago, Razan Zaitouneh, who also disappeared. And your wife and Zaitouneh and her husband disappeared together? Explain who they are.
YASSIN AL-HAJ SALEH: Well, Samira, Samira Khalil — the name of my wife — was a political prisoner for more than four years, between 1987 and 1991. At that time, I was myself in jail as a leftist. Both of us were members of communist — two different communist parties in Syria, but opposing the regime. Samira was an activist. And she was with Razan, who’s a very well-known and highly respected human rights activist in Douma, Wael Hamadeh, Razan’s husband and our friend, and human rights activist Nazem Hammadi, who’s also a poet. They were there, and they were abducted, most probably by Jaysh al-Islam, who is a Salafi military formation in Douma. They are now mercenaries of the Turkish government in the northern part of Syria. We don’t know — unfortunately, we don’t know anything about their fate.
This happened — let me just say something about the context. This happened after the chemical massacre in August 2013 and after the chemical deal. It was a gift to the Middle East Islamist organizations, and it created a paranoia atmosphere everywhere in Syria.
So, they were the independent people, two women, independent women, without supporters, without — and who were politically active against the regime, were extremely visible in that region, which was besieged, completely besieged, by the Assad regime powers. And my brother and other friends were abducted at the hands of Daesh in the same year, by the way, almost in the same period, in the summer of 2013. Paolo Dall’Oglio, the Italian religious figure, and the Syrian, who was at the same time a Syrian revolutionary, was abducted. And my doctor and my friend, Ismail al-Hamed, was abducted.
So, it was part of this extremely inhuman situation that was inflicted on Syrians, and many criminal organizations that appeared in the country. Hayat Tahrir al-Sham in Idlib is only one of these. But the main thing is the Assad regime that has been holding the country for 50 years now, which is one-half of the whole modern history of Syria.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, we will certainly, Yassin, link to the article, your most recent piece, headlined “The love of my life disappeared six years ago, but still I cling to hope,” as we turn now to our next guest.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: So, Loubna, you are a Syrian writer and activist. Your response to this latest offensive, the ongoing offensive in Idlib, and what the situation is of these civilians there? Seventy-six percent of the population there is a civilian population. Turkey has largely closed its borders. Where are these people to go?
LOUBNA MRIE: Thank you so much for having me. But before I answer this question, I think it’s very important to explain to your audience why the situation in Idlib today is pretty difficult and unique at the same time. Idlib is the only Syrian province today that is outside the government control and not safeguarded by a foreign power, such as the U.S. or Turkey, which kind of puts — again, as I mentioned before, kind of puts Idlib in a difficult situation. In the past years, most of the rebel-held areas that have fallen back under the Syrian government control, so many people who have been living in these rebel-held areas, especially those who feared the persecution of the Syrian government, have fled to Idlib, adding more than 400,000 to the pre-existing population of 3 million. So, here we are talking about 3,400,000 civilians who are stuck in Idlib today. As you mentioned, Nermeen, the borders have been closed. People are on the borders sleeping under olive trees, some people sleeping in their cars. And there is no place to go. I mean, in eastern Ghouta — you guys were talking with Yassin about eastern Ghouta — when eastern Ghouta happened, people knew that, OK, there might be a solution for these people to flee, which is Idlib. But, sadly, today there is no other Idlib for these civilians to flee to.
The situation is horrible. And I was talking to one of my good friends on New Year’s Eve just to make sure that he’s OK and he’s safe. And he sadly mentioned that he has been sleeping with his wife and his 7-years-old daughter in the car on the Turkish borders. And he told me he cannot think of any solution. He has been active against the Syrian government since 2012. And for him to leave — to live in a city or to live under the Syrian government control is not really possible. And honestly, he just ended the conversation saying that he’s considering committing suicide. That’s unsure. The situation is horrible. And no one knows what’s going to happen.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Loubna, very quickly, before we conclude, has the Erdogan government, has Turkey said anything about allowing at least some people from Idlib to come into Turkey to seek refuge?
LOUBNA MRIE: Honestly, if you guys have been following the news recently, like, Turkey made it clear that they don’t want any Syrian refugees anymore in Turkey. We have seen reports of deportations, mass deportations of Syrians being sent back to Syria and to Idlib. And I don’t see — I don’t think Turkey might welcome any Syrian refugees. People have been dying on the borders trying to cross to Turkey to seek refuge.
I don’t know if I can just add one point, if I have time, just to add one point. You guys were mentioning the HTS and how the Syrian government is saying that they are only in Idlib to attack radical groups and HTS. I just want to say that just —
AMY GOODMAN: And explain what HTS is, Loubna.
LOUBNA MRIE: Oh, it’s Hayat Tahrir al-Sham. It’s one of the radical groups today in Idlib, which the Syrian government has been using as a justification to attack civilians in Idlib. I just want to say that, as I mentioned earlier, there is more than 3,400,000 civilians in Idlib. And to use HTS as a justification to attack 3 million civilians is really similar to the logic that Israel uses, and Israel and its supporters use, to justify their attacks on Gaza. I think we should never justify attacks just because there is one radical group, to attack all civilians.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, Loubna Mrie, I want to thank you so much for being with us, Syrian writer, photographer, activist, who worked in Idlib from 2012 to ’14 for Reuters, currently writing —
LOUBNA MRIE: Thank you.
AMY GOODMAN: — her first book, about the war in Syria. And we also want to thank Yassin al-Haj Saleh, speaking to us from Turkey.
When we come back, we go to India, where protests against the new anti-Muslim citizenship law continue despite the government crackdown that’s killed at least 27 people. Stay with us.


democracynow--2020-01-02--Could a "New Civil War" Erupt in Iraq as U.S. and Iran Fight for Influence in the Country?

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
NERMEEN SHAIKH : We begin today ’ s show in Iraq , where Iran-backed militia members and their supporters withdrew from the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad ’ s heavily guarded Green Zone on Wednesday after being tear-gassed by American security forces .
Their withdrawal ended a tense standoff that began Tuesday , when militia members broke through the embassy ’ s reception area chanting “ Death to America , ” while thousands rallied outside to protest several U.S. airstrikes in Iraq and Syria that killed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Kata ’ ib Hezbollah .
The U.S. airstrikes came after an American contractor was killed in a rocket attack in Kirkuk , Iraq , on Friday .
The embassy withdrawal was ordered by militia leaders , who said they agreed to leave after Iraqi Prime Minister Adel Abdul-Mahdi pledged to pursue legislation to force U.S. troops out of Iraq .
AMY GOODMAN : Secretary of State Mike Pompeo delayed his trip to Ukraine , and the Pentagon sent 750 troops to the Middle East in response to the embassy showdown .
The United @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Iraq , as well as an undisclosed number of civilian contractors .
For more , we go to Istanbul , where we ’ re joined by Ghaith Abdul-Ahad , a correspondent for The Guardian newspaper .
Ghaith , we welcome you to Democracy Now !
Can you explain what just happened in Iraq over these last few days ?
Explain who the Iranian-backed militia is , what happened at the U.S. Embassy , and now the deal that has been made with the Iraqi prime minister and Parliament to consider tossing out U.S. @ @ @ @ @ @ @ good morning , Amy .
Amy , see , to understand what happened in the last few days , we have to go a couple of months back , three months in particular , with the beginning of the demonstrations in Baghdad , popular demonstrations against the corrupt political system dominated by these pro-Iranian militias and political parties .
For the last three months , these militias and their political parties have been on the back foot , because Iran and these militias have been associated with corruption , with misrule , you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ service system in this country .
So , suddenly , and along these last couple of months , certain things have been happening really away from the media .
So , there ’ s almost attacks , biweekly attacks , on Iraqi-shared Iraq and American bases , the last of which killed a contractor .
But two weeks or three weeks earlier , two Iraqi soldiers were seriously hurt .
At the same time , you have the kidnapping , detention , disappearance of a lot of the activists who participate in these @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on the back foot .
And then , suddenly they ’ ve managed to bait the Americans into this airstrike , which killed 24 Iraqi fighters , because we have to remember that these militias are part of a government structure .
So they killed 24 Iraqi fighters on Iraqi soil .
And that has been the trigger for these demonstrations .
So , suddenly , in the past two , three days , these militias , these powers , political powers , roughly considered Iranian-backed , pro-Iran , have all managed to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ by portraying all what ’ s happening in the country in the past three months , as a struggle between America on one side and Iran on the other side .
I mean , you see the graffiti on the walls of the embassy : “ Qassem Soleimani , my leader , ” “ Iran stays free.
” It ’ s all this anti-American chant , pro-Iran chant .
And by association , they ’ ve managed to portray the demonstrators as all members of this American plot working to destabilize the Iraqi @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the last week has been the best gift these ministers could aspire for , because it just transformed the political narrative in Iraq today .
NERMEEN SHAIKH : Ghaith , could you give more background on the role that Iran has been playing in Iraq ?
And explain .
You just said that the graffiti on the U.S. Embassy included saying “ My leader , Qassem Soleimani.
” Could you explain who he is and how you think these U.S. strikes might change the dynamic , both of the protests as well as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the role they will now play in Iraq ?
GHAITH ABDUL-AHAD : Again , to go back to these demonstrations , you see a very corrupt political system in Iraq .
Now , this political corrupt system , dominated by either religious political parties or militias , all backed by Iran , so , by association , the people in the street are denouncing Iranian interference in Iraq , one , for their support of these militias and , second , for what they perceive as an Iranian interference in Iraqi political affairs @ @ @ @ @ @ @ these , you know , Shia politicians in Iraq .
Now , that theme of anti-Iranian sentiment has been central to the Iraqi demonstrations of the past three months , which have pushed the political parties , dominated — supported by Iran , the militias , to one corner , versus the Iraqi street on the other corner .
And that has been the narrative .
But then there is another narrative that goes in the Middle East , which is this bigger Iran-versus-America conflict , which , as an Iraqi and as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that Iraq will become the next battleground between Iran and the United States .
Where will they fight ?
The Americans and the Iranians will not fight in Tehran or in New York ; they will fight in Basra or in Baghdad or in other places in the Middle East .
So , Qassem Soleimani , the considered godfather of all these militias in Iraq — exaggerated one , of course , but this is what — you know , this is what people talk about .
But mostly the militias , members @ @ @ @ @ @ @ been pushed to the corner , trying , A , to defend their biggest ally , Iran , but also trying to justify their role in Iraqi politics .
Now , many of the people , many of the kids demonstrating in the streets , they are also Shia .
They also served in these militias .
But then , when the war against ISIS finished , those kids came back to see that the bosses , the warlords of these militias , have enriched themselves , while the majority-Shia south is still @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the dynamic of demonstrations from before .
It is Shia kids demonstrating against Shia militias .
So , it is the most important thing that ’ s happened in Iraq in the past 30 , 40 years , these demonstrations .
Now , for the past three months , also these militias have been trying to say , “ Oh , this is all an American plot.
” And this is where we are today .
We are in a situation where the demonstrators in Baghdad have to justify , to explain that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ plot targeting Iran or the role of these militias .
AMY GOODMAN : So , explain now what ’ s happening with the caretaker Iraqi prime minister , who has already said he ’ s leaving .
But the U.S. troops moving in and tear-gassing , some media outlets have described it , and that ’ s why the militias pulled out .
But others said they had already decided to pull out , once , they say , they got the agreement of the Iraqi prime minister to push in the parliament @ @ @ @ @ @ @ been there for some time , but this has added strength , to pass a bill to toss the U.S. troops out .
GHAITH ABDUL-AHAD : These are all theatrics .
I mean , the people who participated in the attack on the embassy were senior security adviser , head of parliamentary bloc .
Between them , those pro-Iranian militias and parties , they have more than 160 members of the parliament .
They could have called for the removal of U.S. forces , not today , not with this airstrike , long @ @ @ @ @ @ @ theatrics is to try to vent some anger in the street .
I mean , the Iraqi government , the Iraqi prime minister , unfortunately , know very well that the Iraqi Army , the Iraqi security forces can not stand , 16 years after the toppling of Saddam Hussein , on their own without American support , which is a disgrace , with all the billions of dollars spent on them , because of the corruption , mismanagement , you call it .
Today in Iraq we have two militaries , some @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of official government army , police force , special forces , whatever .
And on the other side , you have all these militias incorporated also officially in the structure of that , but one that has loyalty basically to Iran and certain parts of the political system in Iraq .
And the other , in theory , has loyalty to the Iraqi state .
Now , the first one , the official Iraqi Army , is very weak , is corrupt .
Only a certain element of it can stand on its @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
So , this is the complicated situation in Iraq .
This is the layers of complication .
It ’ s not only demonstrators against a corrupt government .
It ’ s also demonstrators against very strong militias , and within the larger American-Iranian conflict .
So , to go back to your question , yes , they will table a motion that will call for the removal of all American troops out of Iraq .
But will that be achieved ?
Can they actually achieve that ?
I mean , it ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ former prime minister , who signed the agreement with the Americans .
So , can they just remove all the Americans ?
Can the Iraqi government stand on its own without American air force and air support ?
It will be very interesting to see .
But again , the theatrics of it all , the cinematography of attacking the embassy , of raising pro-Iranian militia flags on the walls of the embassy , of writing “ Qassem Suleimani ” on the embassy — the theatrics of it all has dominated the scene @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , again , shifted the narrative from demonstrators against a corrupt government into Iran-versus-America conflict .
NERMEEN SHAIKH : And could you explain , Ghaith , what you think the effect has been of the Trump administration withdrawing from the Iran nuclear deal , and the effects of this maximum-pressure sanctions that have been placed on Iran by the Trump administration , and how that ’ s altered what Iran is doing in Iraq ?
GHAITH ABDUL-AHAD : Simply put , disastrous , Amy , disastrous in every single aspect on the Iraqi @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we have to remember , Iranian influences and Iranian-backed militia did not exist in 2003 , pre-American invasion of Iraq .
The Iranians , when they were labeled as part of the Axis of Evil , took the natural steps of any nation , which is to defend their country beyond their borders .
So they decided to build and arm these militias in Iraq as a buffer zone , as a way to influence Iraqi politics and defend themselves against whatever American adventure , as they call it .
And that was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and Iran became stronger and stronger in Iraq .
Now , when the Americans canceled that agreement with Iran , my and other Iraqis ’ biggest fear was not the state of American-Iranian relationship , but my country , Iraq , because that is the battle zone .
So , when you apply maximum pressure on Iran , where would Iran vent that pressure ?
Where would Iran defend themselves , but in Iraq , Saudi Arabia and other countries along this soft belly of the United States ?
This is where the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Americans have their military bases in Iraq .
One military commander appeared on TV like , I think , last year or a couple of years ago and said , “ Every American in the country , every American soldier in the country , we consider as our hostage.
” This is where the Iranians will defend .
And this was our fear when the Americans decided to do maximum pressure on Iran without any alternative , without any realistic alternative .
What do you want to do ?
Topple the Iranian @ @ @ @ @ @ @ but at the same time you put pressure , and that pressure is reflecting really horribly in Iraqi politics — GHAITH ABDUL-AHAD : — and in Iraqi situation , in general .
So , this is — sorry , one other thing .
The actual fear in the country now , in Baghdad , is another round of civil war .
Only this one will be a Shia-Shia civil war .
And that will — you know , it will be disastrous .
AMY GOODMAN : And this 2020 — we ’ ve @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the presidential election .
And President Trump asked — President Trump promised in 2016 — right ?
— he was going to withdraw troops from places like Iraq and Syria and Afghanistan .
What does this mean ?
Does this put him in a very serious bind if he wants to pursue what he ’ s doing in Iraq , going back to him saying years ago , as president , that he was going to keep Iraq — U.S. troops in Iraq to monitor Iran , which infuriated everyone there ?
GHAITH @ @ @ @ @ @ @ personally , as an Iraqi , I would love to see the back of the American troops today , tomorrow , yesterday , 10 years ago .
The fact that you want to say , “ We will leave the Middle East , ” lovely .
Just leave .
Thank you so much .
But at the same time , you increase troop level in Iraq , and you say , “ We have our troops there to monitor Iran.
” As you said , suddenly you put Iraq in a situation : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with Iran .
Iran is our neighbor .
Iran has the longest borders with us .
Iran , we ’ ve been fighting a lot with the Iranians for decades , if not centuries .
We don ’ t want to go to another war with Iran .
We don ’ t want to be the launching pad , the launching base for another American adventure in the Middle East .
And yet , at the same time , the agreement , the forces agreement with the United States , states that the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Iraqi airspace , secure Iraqi government against attack .
So , that shift in the narrative , that using Iraq as a launch pad , of course would make Iranian allies in the region jittery , accuse the Americans of plotting against them and something , and , again , using that American argument to counter the demonstration in the streets .
This is what these militias have been doing all along , even before these strikes .
So now you have the strikes .
Now you have this rhetoric , this Trump @ @ @ @ @ @ @ say this small joke ?
You know , every single demonstrator I ’ ve talked to in the squares in Baghdad , they pray , they tell me , they wish , they pray , that Trump would never utter a tweet regarding Iraqi politics , because they don ’ t want to be part of this Iran-versus-America narrative .
It is Iraqi demonstrations against the Iraqi political system .
The militias want to make it as if it ’ s targeting Iran .
And now the Americans are using these demonstrations for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , pressure on Iran .
This is the delicate situation in Iraq .
And again , it ’ s a country awash with weapons , with militias , with military forces , and a new civil war can spark within hours , if not days .
NERMEEN SHAIKH : Well , Ghaith , you were just in Baghdad before Christmas , when these widespread protests were ongoing .
But now , given the U.S. airstrikes — very quickly , before we conclude — are protesters concerned now that those , their demonstrations , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have been anti-Iranian ?
GHAITH ABDUL-AHAD : Yes .
I mean , this is the biggest concern for the demonstrators .
The biggest concern is that they will be labeled as pro-Americans or stooges in an American plot against Iran .
But at the same time , the youth , the people in the streets , the rioters , all have been very vocal , from day one , to say that “ We are not part of any American plot.
” They denounce these American airstrikes .
And they ’ re trying @ @ @ @ @ @ @ narrative , and towards electing a new prime minister and reforming the Constitution and the election law , which has been their demand from day one .
AMY GOODMAN : Ghaith Abdul-Ahad , we want to thank you so much for being with us , correspondent for The Guardian newspaper , speaking to us from Turkey .
When we come back , we turn to Syria , where a quarter of a million people have fled the Russian-backed Syrian offensive in Idlib .
Stay with us .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: We begin today’s show in Iraq, where Iran-backed militia members and their supporters withdrew from the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad’s heavily guarded Green Zone on Wednesday after being tear-gassed by American security forces. Their withdrawal ended a tense standoff that began Tuesday, when militia members broke through the embassy’s reception area chanting “Death to America,” while thousands rallied outside to protest several U.S. airstrikes in Iraq and Syria that killed at least 24 members of the militia Kata’ib Hezbollah. The U.S. airstrikes came after an American contractor was killed in a rocket attack in Kirkuk, Iraq, on Friday. The embassy withdrawal was ordered by militia leaders, who said they agreed to leave after Iraqi Prime Minister Adel Abdul-Mahdi pledged to pursue legislation to force U.S. troops out of Iraq.
AMY GOODMAN: Secretary of State Mike Pompeo delayed his trip to Ukraine, and the Pentagon sent 750 troops to the Middle East in response to the embassy showdown. The United States has around 5,000 troops stationed in Iraq, as well as an undisclosed number of civilian contractors.
For more, we go to Istanbul, where we’re joined by Ghaith Abdul-Ahad, a correspondent for The Guardian newspaper.
Ghaith, we welcome you to Democracy Now! Can you explain what just happened in Iraq over these last few days? Explain who the Iranian-backed militia is, what happened at the U.S. Embassy, and now the deal that has been made with the Iraqi prime minister and Parliament to consider tossing out U.S. troops.
GHAITH ABDUL-AHAD: Well, good morning, Amy. Amy, see, to understand what happened in the last few days, we have to go a couple of months back, three months in particular, with the beginning of the demonstrations in Baghdad, popular demonstrations against the corrupt political system dominated by these pro-Iranian militias and political parties. For the last three months, these militias and their political parties have been on the back foot, because Iran and these militias have been associated with corruption, with misrule, you know, with the worst kind of service system in this country. So, suddenly, and along these last couple of months, certain things have been happening really away from the media. So, there’s almost attacks, biweekly attacks, on Iraqi-shared Iraq and American bases, the last of which killed a contractor. But two weeks or three weeks earlier, two Iraqi soldiers were seriously hurt. At the same time, you have the kidnapping, detention, disappearance of a lot of the activists who participate in these demonstrations. So these militias have been on the back foot.
And then, suddenly they’ve managed to bait the Americans into this airstrike, which killed 24 Iraqi fighters, because we have to remember that these militias are part of a government structure. So they killed 24 Iraqi fighters on Iraqi soil. And that has been the trigger for these demonstrations. So, suddenly, in the past two, three days, these militias, these powers, political powers, roughly considered Iranian-backed, pro-Iran, have all managed to regain the initiative by portraying themselves, by portraying all what’s happening in the country in the past three months, as a struggle between America on one side and Iran on the other side. I mean, you see the graffiti on the walls of the embassy: “Qassem Soleimani, my leader,” “Iran stays free.” It’s all this anti-American chant, pro-Iran chant. And by association, they’ve managed to portray the demonstrators as all members of this American plot working to destabilize the Iraqi government. So, this airstrike of the last week has been the best gift these ministers could aspire for, because it just transformed the political narrative in Iraq today.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Ghaith, could you give more background on the role that Iran has been playing in Iraq? And explain. You just said that the graffiti on the U.S. Embassy included saying “My leader, Qassem Soleimani.” Could you explain who he is and how you think these U.S. strikes might change the dynamic, both of the protests as well as what these militias will now do, the role they will now play in Iraq?
GHAITH ABDUL-AHAD: Again, to go back to these demonstrations, you see a very corrupt political system in Iraq. Now, this political corrupt system, dominated by either religious political parties or militias, all backed by Iran, so, by association, the people in the street are denouncing Iranian interference in Iraq, one, for their support of these militias and, second, for what they perceive as an Iranian interference in Iraqi political affairs, but mainly for the support of these, you know, Shia politicians in Iraq. Now, that theme of anti-Iranian sentiment has been central to the Iraqi demonstrations of the past three months, which have pushed the political parties, dominated — supported by Iran, the militias, to one corner, versus the Iraqi street on the other corner. And that has been the narrative.
But then there is another narrative that goes in the Middle East, which is this bigger Iran-versus-America conflict, which, as an Iraqi and as many Iraqis fear, is we fear that Iraq will become the next battleground between Iran and the United States. Where will they fight? The Americans and the Iranians will not fight in Tehran or in New York; they will fight in Basra or in Baghdad or in other places in the Middle East.
So, Qassem Soleimani, the considered godfather of all these militias in Iraq — exaggerated one, of course, but this is what — you know, this is what people talk about. But mostly the militias, members of the Popular Mobilization Units, have been pushed to the corner, trying, A, to defend their biggest ally, Iran, but also trying to justify their role in Iraqi politics.
Now, many of the people, many of the kids demonstrating in the streets, they are also Shia. They also served in these militias. But then, when the war against ISIS finished, those kids came back to see that the bosses, the warlords of these militias, have enriched themselves, while the majority-Shia south is still poor. That dynamic, that shifted the dynamic of demonstrations from before. It is Shia kids demonstrating against Shia militias. So, it is the most important thing that’s happened in Iraq in the past 30, 40 years, these demonstrations.
Now, for the past three months, also these militias have been trying to say, “Oh, this is all an American plot.” And this is where we are today. We are in a situation where the demonstrators in Baghdad have to justify, to explain that they are not part of an American plot targeting Iran or the role of these militias.
AMY GOODMAN: So, explain now what’s happening with the caretaker Iraqi prime minister, who has already said he’s leaving. But the U.S. troops moving in and tear-gassing, some media outlets have described it, and that’s why the militias pulled out. But others said they had already decided to pull out, once, they say, they got the agreement of the Iraqi prime minister to push in the parliament to pass a bill, that has been there for some time, but this has added strength, to pass a bill to toss the U.S. troops out.
GHAITH ABDUL-AHAD: These are all theatrics. I mean, the people who participated in the attack on the embassy were senior security adviser, head of parliamentary bloc. Between them, those pro-Iranian militias and parties, they have more than 160 members of the parliament. They could have called for the removal of U.S. forces, not today, not with this airstrike, long before. So, all of this theatrics is to try to vent some anger in the street. I mean, the Iraqi government, the Iraqi prime minister, unfortunately, know very well that the Iraqi Army, the Iraqi security forces cannot stand, 16 years after the toppling of Saddam Hussein, on their own without American support, which is a disgrace, with all the billions of dollars spent on them, because of the corruption, mismanagement, you call it.
Today in Iraq we have two militaries, some say three. We have a sort of official government army, police force, special forces, whatever. And on the other side, you have all these militias incorporated also officially in the structure of that, but one that has loyalty basically to Iran and certain parts of the political system in Iraq. And the other, in theory, has loyalty to the Iraqi state. Now, the first one, the official Iraqi Army, is very weak, is corrupt. Only a certain element of it can stand on its own, versus a very powerful militia. So, this is the complicated situation in Iraq. This is the layers of complication. It’s not only demonstrators against a corrupt government. It’s also demonstrators against very strong militias, and within the larger American-Iranian conflict.
So, to go back to your question, yes, they will table a motion that will call for the removal of all American troops out of Iraq. But will that be achieved? Can they actually achieve that? I mean, it’s Maliki, Nouri al-Maliki, the former prime minister, who signed the agreement with the Americans. So, can they just remove all the Americans? Can the Iraqi government stand on its own without American air force and air support? It will be very interesting to see. But again, the theatrics of it all, the cinematography of attacking the embassy, of raising pro-Iranian militia flags on the walls of the embassy, of writing “Qassem Suleimani” on the embassy — the theatrics of it all has dominated the scene in Iraq of the past week and, again, shifted the narrative from demonstrators against a corrupt government into Iran-versus-America conflict.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And could you explain, Ghaith, what you think the effect has been of the Trump administration withdrawing from the Iran nuclear deal, and the effects of this maximum-pressure sanctions that have been placed on Iran by the Trump administration, and how that’s altered what Iran is doing in Iraq?
GHAITH ABDUL-AHAD: Simply put, disastrous, Amy, disastrous in every single aspect on the Iraqi politics and Iraqis. I mean, we have to remember, Iranian influences and Iranian-backed militia did not exist in 2003, pre-American invasion of Iraq. The Iranians, when they were labeled as part of the Axis of Evil, took the natural steps of any nation, which is to defend their country beyond their borders. So they decided to build and arm these militias in Iraq as a buffer zone, as a way to influence Iraqi politics and defend themselves against whatever American adventure, as they call it. And that was the situation. The Americans left, and Iran became stronger and stronger in Iraq.
Now, when the Americans canceled that agreement with Iran, my and other Iraqis’ biggest fear was not the state of American-Iranian relationship, but my country, Iraq, because that is the battle zone. So, when you apply maximum pressure on Iran, where would Iran vent that pressure? Where would Iran defend themselves, but in Iraq, Saudi Arabia and other countries along this soft belly of the United States? This is where the Iranians can hit. This is where the Americans have their military bases in Iraq. One military commander appeared on TV like, I think, last year or a couple of years ago and said, “Every American in the country, every American soldier in the country, we consider as our hostage.” This is where the Iranians will defend. And this was our fear when the Americans decided to do maximum pressure on Iran without any alternative, without any realistic alternative. What do you want to do? Topple the Iranian government? You keep saying no, but at the same time you put pressure, and that pressure is reflecting really horribly in Iraqi politics —
AMY GOODMAN: So —
GHAITH ABDUL-AHAD: — and in Iraqi situation, in general. So, this is — sorry, one other thing. The actual fear in the country now, in Baghdad, is another round of civil war. Only this one will be a Shia-Shia civil war. And that will — you know, it will be disastrous.
AMY GOODMAN: And this 2020 — we’ve just entered this new year — is the presidential election. And President Trump asked — President Trump promised in 2016 — right? — he was going to withdraw troops from places like Iraq and Syria and Afghanistan. What does this mean? Does this put him in a very serious bind if he wants to pursue what he’s doing in Iraq, going back to him saying years ago, as president, that he was going to keep Iraq — U.S. troops in Iraq to monitor Iran, which infuriated everyone there?
GHAITH ABDUL-AHAD: I mean, I, personally, as an Iraqi, I would love to see the back of the American troops today, tomorrow, yesterday, 10 years ago. The fact that you want to say, “We will leave the Middle East,” lovely. Just leave. Thank you so much.
But at the same time, you increase troop level in Iraq, and you say, “We have our troops there to monitor Iran.” As you said, suddenly you put Iraq in a situation: It’s either with America or with Iran. Iran is our neighbor. Iran has the longest borders with us. Iran, we’ve been fighting a lot with the Iranians for decades, if not centuries. We don’t want to go to another war with Iran. We don’t want to be the launching pad, the launching base for another American adventure in the Middle East. And yet, at the same time, the agreement, the forces agreement with the United States, states that the American forces are in Iraq to secure Iraqi airspace, secure Iraqi government against attack. So, that shift in the narrative, that using Iraq as a launch pad, of course would make Iranian allies in the region jittery, accuse the Americans of plotting against them and something, and, again, using that American argument to counter the demonstration in the streets. This is what these militias have been doing all along, even before these strikes. So now you have the strikes. Now you have this rhetoric, this Trump rhetoric.
You know, can I say this small joke? You know, every single demonstrator I’ve talked to in the squares in Baghdad, they pray, they tell me, they wish, they pray, that Trump would never utter a tweet regarding Iraqi politics, because they don’t want to be part of this Iran-versus-America narrative. It is Iraqi demonstrations against the Iraqi political system. The militias want to make it as if it’s targeting Iran. And now the Americans are using these demonstrations for their own, you know, whatever, pressure on Iran. This is the delicate situation in Iraq. And again, it’s a country awash with weapons, with militias, with military forces, and a new civil war can spark within hours, if not days.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, Ghaith, you were just in Baghdad before Christmas, when these widespread protests were ongoing. But now, given the U.S. airstrikes — very quickly, before we conclude — are protesters concerned now that those, their demonstrations, will be viewed as pro-American because they have been anti-Iranian?
GHAITH ABDUL-AHAD: Yes. I mean, this is the biggest concern for the demonstrators. The biggest concern is that they will be labeled as pro-Americans or stooges in an American plot against Iran. But at the same time, the youth, the people in the streets, the rioters, all have been very vocal, from day one, to say that “We are not part of any American plot.” They denounce these American airstrikes. And they’re trying to push back the momentum or the narrative, and towards electing a new prime minister and reforming the Constitution and the election law, which has been their demand from day one.
AMY GOODMAN: Ghaith Abdul-Ahad, we want to thank you so much for being with us, correspondent for The Guardian newspaper, speaking to us from Turkey.
When we come back, we turn to Syria, where a quarter of a million people have fled the Russian-backed Syrian offensive in Idlib. Stay with us.


democracynow--2020-01-02--Headlines for January  2, 2020

Headlines for January  2, 2020

In Iraq , members of an Iranian-backed militia and its supporters have withdrawn from the Green Zone after a two-day standoff outside the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad .
The militia members broke into a gatehouse at the perimeter of the sprawling embassy Tuesday , setting fire to the structure .
On Wednesday , U.S. troops tear-gassed the militia members .
The militia withdrew after Iraqi Prime Minister Adel Abdul-Mahdi pledged to pursue legislation to force U.S. troops out of Iraq .
This is Mohammed al-Haydari of the Popular Mobilization Forces .
Mohammed al-Haydari : ’ ” The American troops in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ forces or to combat terrorism , but the killing of members of the Hashd al-Shaabi , this is something unacceptable .
So , for this reason , we are coming here , until the U.S. troops leave Iraq.
” The embassy standoff came after the United States launched a slew of airstrikes in Iraq and Syria Sunday that killed at least 24 members of the Iranian-backed militia Kata ’ ib Hezbollah .
The Iraqi prime minister had warned Defense Secretary Mark Esper against the airstrikes , which came as retaliation after an American @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in Kirkuk , Iraq , Friday .
The Pentagon has now sent 750 more troops to the Middle East , and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has delayed a trip to Ukraine and four other nations .
The showdown at the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad comes amid months of anti-government protests in Iraq .
These protesters say they were not part of the showdown at the U.S. Embassy and that they are opposed to corruption and Iranian influence in Iraq .

In Iraq, members of an Iranian-backed militia and its supporters have withdrawn from the Green Zone after a two-day standoff outside the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad. The militia members broke into a gatehouse at the perimeter of the sprawling embassy Tuesday, setting fire to the structure. On Wednesday, U.S. troops tear-gassed the militia members. The militia withdrew after Iraqi Prime Minister Adel Abdul-Mahdi pledged to pursue legislation to force U.S. troops out of Iraq. This is Mohammed al-Haydari of the Popular Mobilization Forces.
Mohammed al-Haydari: ’”The American troops in Iraq are supposed to either train Iraqi forces or to combat terrorism, but the killing of members of the Hashd al-Shaabi, this is something unacceptable. So, for this reason, we are coming here, until the U.S. troops leave Iraq.”
The embassy standoff came after the United States launched a slew of airstrikes in Iraq and Syria Sunday that killed at least 24 members of the Iranian-backed militia Kata’ib Hezbollah. The Iraqi prime minister had warned Defense Secretary Mark Esper against the airstrikes, which came as retaliation after an American contractor was killed in a rocket attack in Kirkuk, Iraq, Friday. The Pentagon has now sent 750 more troops to the Middle East, and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has delayed a trip to Ukraine and four other nations.
The showdown at the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad comes amid months of anti-government protests in Iraq. These protesters say they were not part of the showdown at the U.S. Embassy and that they are opposed to corruption and Iranian influence in Iraq.