democracynow--2020-09-03--"Where Is the Accountability?" 23 Deaths at Fort Hood Prompt Commander's Removal, New Investigation

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : We begin today ’ s show in Texas , where Fort Hood ’ s top commander has been removed from his post as public outcry grows over a series of killings and accusations of sexual abuse at the Army base .
There have been 23 deaths at Fort Hood this year alone .
Thirteen soldiers have been disappeared or killed or died by suicide .
Last week , the remains of another Fort Hood soldier , Elder Fernandes , were found near @ @ @ @ @ @ @ On Tuesday , the Army announced a new investigation into Fort Hood ’ s chain of command related to the April murder of soldier Vanessa Guillén , whose remains were found near the base at the end of June .
In July , her family announced the remains had been found , at a news conference in Washington , D.C. , where they demanded a congressional investigation into Vanessa ’ s case .
This is Lupe Guillén , Vanessa Guillén ’ s younger sister , speaking that day in D.C. AMY GOODMAN : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s death , another Fort Hood soldier , Specialist Aaron David Robinson , died by suicide , according to the police , as they approached him in July shortly after he was accused .
A federal complaint alleges Robinson killed Guillén with a hammer on Fort Hood before removing her body in a box .
He and his girlfriend then allegedly dismembered the remains .
Robinson shot himself as police approached him .
According to her family , Vanessa Guillén had been planning on reporting Robinson for sexual harassment .
Her case has @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the military .
In July , her family met with President Trump and also announced legislation to create a third-party agency where active military personnel can report sexual assault and harassment outside their chain of command .
The bill is named I Am Vanessa Guillen .
Guillén was just 20 years old when she was killed .
For more on the latest developments at Fort Hood , we go to Charleston , South Carolina , where we ’ re joined by Pam Campos-Palma , political strategist with the Working Families Party , where @ @ @ @ @ @ @ project .
She is an Air Force veteran .
We welcome you to Democracy Now !
, Pam .
It ’ s great to have you with us .
You ’ re deeply involved with this case .
Can you talk about the latest developments this week , the commander of Fort Hood being forced to step down , and how it ties into the Vanessa Guillén case , all that you know about her case so far ?
PAM CAMPOS-PALMA : Sure .
It ’ s been a devastating time .
I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , veterans , supporters of the Guillén family and all those that have been lost at Fort Hood , have been organizing for months , since her disappearance to her murder .
And the recent developments from the Army in terms of leadership change at Fort Hood is a hopeful sign of the hard work of activists , who have really demanded true accountability and no more piecemeal reforms .
However , it ’ s not enough .
We ’ ve been very clear that the Army can no longer continue to investigate @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , Scott Efflandt , he ’ s still staying on the base .
It ’ s not clear if he will actually pay with his career for the gross criminal negligence under his watch .
And he ’ s also not the only commander , right ?
This is not unique to Vanessa Guillén .
This is not unique to Fort Hood .
Rampant sexual military — military sexual violence , corruption , impunity has been a decades-long issue that can no longer be ignored .
NERMEEN SHAIKH : Pam , you say @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Hood is not exceptional .
Nevertheless , the sheer rate of violent crime on the base is extraordinary — as we mentioned , the number of people who have died by suicide , who have been killed or simply disappeared .
Can you say something about the way in which this military base , in particular , is run , its chain of command , its leadership , and why you think there have been so many incidents this year alone ?
PAM CAMPOS-PALMA : Right .
It is exceptional , what is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ criminality , violent crime at Fort Hood has been happening for years .
For the last 11 years , in fact , Fort Hood has had among the highest rates of sexual assault , suicide , a mass shooting , and now multiple human trafficking rings which involved active-duty Fort Hood soldiers .
What ’ s really interesting about Fort Hood , as well , is that it is also one of the largest military installations in the world and also produces some of the highest-ranking , most notable names in the military @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Joint Chiefs of Staff , General Mark Milley , himself , before being the highest-ranking officer currently in the armed forces , was a commander at Fort Hood .
And others who are now pundits and known household military general names also commanded at Fort Hood .
And so , my point is that rape culture , systemic racism , corruption and impunity has been really part and parcel in the Department of Defense for decades .
And part of this problem has been not just the — there ’ s a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ One is , if rape and racism are not really deemed the problem but part of the culture , it ’ s impossible to report .
And the current reporting systems in place and mechanisms are dissuasive , by the Army ’ s own account .
In these cases in these past few months , it ’ s been even more exposed how retaliation within the ranks for reporting is a problem .
Secondarily , where is the accountability ?
Consistently , Congress has not necessarily stepped up to their responsibility of true @ @ @ @ @ @ @ really the only ones that can hold the Department of Defense accountable .
And time and time again , they have relied on the military to investigate themselves .
AMY GOODMAN : I remember the news conference so well in Washington , the family driving from Texas to Washington , D.C. And the news conference was delayed in the hot sun , because the family was just getting word that the military said they had found the remains of Vanessa Guillén .
Now , they had been calling for this investigation for months @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as the family actually made it to D.C. and were demanding that a bill be passed , in Vanessa Guillén ’ s name , calling for an independent — calling for an independent way for people to come forward .
Can you explain the significance of this bill , Pam ?
PAM CAMPOS-PALMA : Sure .
I mean , it is imperative .
I mean , decades of commanders — the choice has been really clear in the military : protect the careers of longtime generals and high-ranking officers , or protect everyday @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , they ’ ve chosen to protect commanders .
And commanders have not actually expunged sexual violence from the ranks .
In fact , it has risen .
And so , it is extremely important for there to be an independent way for folks in the military to report instances of harassment , of assault , of hate crimes .
However , it is not the only thing .
One of the most important things that is not to be lost is , for too long , rape , violence in the military @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
And so , while the bill , which is not yet drafted — the I Am Vanessa Guillen bill is not yet drafted .
There are other more comprehensive bills going through the Hill .
It does take one part of the problem , which is , an independent third party is a positive step .
However , there needs to be a complete overhaul of military culture , where sexual assault is not a training tool , where it is not permissible , and where there ’ s actual accountability .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ are ever really held with account and do not pay with their careers , are allowed to continue to retire , shows you that this is permissible within the ranks .
AMY GOODMAN : Gloria Guillén , Vanessa ’ s mother , met with President Trump at the White House in July .
She spoke to Trump via a Spanish-English interpreter .
However , 10 minutes into the conversation , the translator stopped interpreting , after Vanessa ’ s mother Gloria made a request of Trump .
This was first reported in the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Let ’ s go ahead with the translation that we did .
AMY GOODMAN : That ’ s Gloria Guillén , Vanessa ’ s mother , saying to President Trump , dreaming of her daughter telling her to be concerned about the children .
She wasn ’ t sure if they were children on the border .
The significance of this ?
And as we end , Pam , what the latest with — found with Elder Fernandes ’ s remains and the charges that he , too , was being sexually @ @ @ @ @ @ @ own life .
PAM CAMPOS-PALMA : Yeah .
I can ’ t repeat it enough .
Gloria Guillén has been one of the most clear .
And one of the biggest failings in this whole process is she doesn ’ t speak English , right ?
But she has been very clear in her pursuit .
And one of the things that has made these cases different and has shed a greater light has been a working-class immigrant woman , immigrant families , who are not playing into the blind adulation of military @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and saying , “ We demand accountability.
” Gloria Guillén was brave to not only tell the president , to tell Congress , to tell military top brass , “ Shut down Fort Hood .
It is not a good for anyone.
” And I think in this moment we are in an inflection point in this nation where everyday Americans are questioning the institutions that continue to fail us .
She has also said if there is no justice for these dead soldiers , then we will not in good conscience continue @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , particularly when Black and Brown people are among the highest rates of enlistment .
And so , whether it ’ s Kenosha , Wisconsin , and the systemic failures by police , who also like to investigate themselves , to the military ’ s continued failings , treating everyday soldiers like government property , throwing us into endless wars with no real questions or strategy , this is now the time to divest from violence and invest in real solutions that treat us in our full humanity .
And so I was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Gloria Guillén , making these demands , in a time where our country is really grappling with what safety , safety for who , defense for who , who is protected .
And we will continue to organize for Vanessa Guillén , Elder Fernandes , and for true accountability from the Department of Defense and Congress .
AMY GOODMAN : We want to thank you so much for being with us , Pam Campos-Palma , political strategist with the Working Families Party , she herself an Air Force military intelligence vet , head @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Next , we go to Belarus , where mass protests continue to demand the resignation of President Alexander Lukashenko amidst a brutal government crackdown .
Stay with us .
AMY GOODMAN : “ We Demand Equality ” by Yariel Roaro , in honor of Vanessa Guillén .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: We begin today’s show in Texas, where Fort Hood’s top commander has been removed from his post as public outcry grows over a series of killings and accusations of sexual abuse at the Army base. There have been 23 deaths at Fort Hood this year alone. Thirteen soldiers have been disappeared or killed or died by suicide. Last week, the remains of another Fort Hood soldier, Elder Fernandes, were found near the base hanging from a tree.
On Tuesday, the Army announced a new investigation into Fort Hood’s chain of command related to the April murder of soldier Vanessa Guillén, whose remains were found near the base at the end of June. In July, her family announced the remains had been found, at a news conference in Washington, D.C., where they demanded a congressional investigation into Vanessa’s case. This is Lupe Guillén, Vanessa Guillén’s younger sister, speaking that day in D.C.
LUPE GUILLÉN: My sister, Vanessa Guillén, was sexually harassed. … They didn’t keep my sister safe. They always try to cover up for each other. Why? My sister’s a human, too. She deserves respect. She deserves to be heard. Because if this can happen to my sister, it can happen to anyone else. … How can this happen on a military base? How can this happen while she was on duty? … They don’t care about us. My sister is an example of it. My sister did not deserve to suffer. My sister did not deserve this.
AMY GOODMAN: The main suspect in Vanessa Guillén’s death, another Fort Hood soldier, Specialist Aaron David Robinson, died by suicide, according to the police, as they approached him in July shortly after he was accused. A federal complaint alleges Robinson killed Guillén with a hammer on Fort Hood before removing her body in a box. He and his girlfriend then allegedly dismembered the remains. Robinson shot himself as police approached him. According to her family, Vanessa Guillén had been planning on reporting Robinson for sexual harassment.
Her case has sparked national outrage about sexual assault in the military. In July, her family met with President Trump and also announced legislation to create a third-party agency where active military personnel can report sexual assault and harassment outside their chain of command. The bill is named I Am Vanessa Guillen. Guillén was just 20 years old when she was killed.
For more on the latest developments at Fort Hood, we go to Charleston, South Carolina, where we’re joined by Pam Campos-Palma, political strategist with the Working Families Party, where she leads the Vets for the People project. She is an Air Force veteran.
We welcome you to Democracy Now!, Pam. It’s great to have you with us. You’re deeply involved with this case. Can you talk about the latest developments this week, the commander of Fort Hood being forced to step down, and how it ties into the Vanessa Guillén case, all that you know about her case so far?
PAM CAMPOS-PALMA: Sure. It’s been a devastating time. I mean, many of us, survivors, veterans, supporters of the Guillén family and all those that have been lost at Fort Hood, have been organizing for months, since her disappearance to her murder. And the recent developments from the Army in terms of leadership change at Fort Hood is a hopeful sign of the hard work of activists, who have really demanded true accountability and no more piecemeal reforms. However, it’s not enough.
We’ve been very clear that the Army can no longer continue to investigate itself. Even with this acting commander, Scott Efflandt, he’s still staying on the base. It’s not clear if he will actually pay with his career for the gross criminal negligence under his watch. And he’s also not the only commander, right? This is not unique to Vanessa Guillén. This is not unique to Fort Hood. Rampant sexual military — military sexual violence, corruption, impunity has been a decades-long issue that can no longer be ignored.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Pam, you say that what’s happened at Fort Hood is not exceptional. Nevertheless, the sheer rate of violent crime on the base is extraordinary — as we mentioned, the number of people who have died by suicide, who have been killed or simply disappeared. Can you say something about the way in which this military base, in particular, is run, its chain of command, its leadership, and why you think there have been so many incidents this year alone?
PAM CAMPOS-PALMA: Right. It is exceptional, what is happening at Fort Hood. However, criminality, violent crime at Fort Hood has been happening for years. For the last 11 years, in fact, Fort Hood has had among the highest rates of sexual assault, suicide, a mass shooting, and now multiple human trafficking rings which involved active-duty Fort Hood soldiers.
What’s really interesting about Fort Hood, as well, is that it is also one of the largest military installations in the world and also produces some of the highest-ranking, most notable names in the military. Right? Our current chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Mark Milley, himself, before being the highest-ranking officer currently in the armed forces, was a commander at Fort Hood. And others who are now pundits and known household military general names also commanded at Fort Hood.
And so, my point is that rape culture, systemic racism, corruption and impunity has been really part and parcel in the Department of Defense for decades. And part of this problem has been not just the — there’s a couple of pieces to this problem. One is, if rape and racism are not really deemed the problem but part of the culture, it’s impossible to report. And the current reporting systems in place and mechanisms are dissuasive, by the Army’s own account. In these cases in these past few months, it’s been even more exposed how retaliation within the ranks for reporting is a problem.
Secondarily, where is the accountability? Consistently, Congress has not necessarily stepped up to their responsibility of true oversight of the military. Congress is really the only ones that can hold the Department of Defense accountable. And time and time again, they have relied on the military to investigate themselves.
AMY GOODMAN: I remember the news conference so well in Washington, the family driving from Texas to Washington, D.C. And the news conference was delayed in the hot sun, because the family was just getting word that the military said they had found the remains of Vanessa Guillén. Now, they had been calling for this investigation for months. Clearly, the pressure being brought as the family actually made it to D.C. and were demanding that a bill be passed, in Vanessa Guillén’s name, calling for an independent — calling for an independent way for people to come forward. Can you explain the significance of this bill, Pam?
PAM CAMPOS-PALMA: Sure. I mean, it is imperative. I mean, decades of commanders — the choice has been really clear in the military: protect the careers of longtime generals and high-ranking officers, or protect everyday soldiers. And time and time again, they’ve chosen to protect commanders. And commanders have not actually expunged sexual violence from the ranks. In fact, it has risen. And so, it is extremely important for there to be an independent way for folks in the military to report instances of harassment, of assault, of hate crimes. However, it is not the only thing.
One of the most important things that is not to be lost is, for too long, rape, violence in the military has been treated as an occupational hazard. And so, while the bill, which is not yet drafted — the I Am Vanessa Guillen bill is not yet drafted. There are other more comprehensive bills going through the Hill. It does take one part of the problem, which is, an independent third party is a positive step. However, there needs to be a complete overhaul of military culture, where sexual assault is not a training tool, where it is not permissible, and where there’s actual accountability. The fact that little to no officers are ever really held with account and do not pay with their careers, are allowed to continue to retire, shows you that this is permissible within the ranks.
AMY GOODMAN: Gloria Guillén, Vanessa’s mother, met with President Trump at the White House in July. She spoke to Trump via a Spanish-English interpreter. However, 10 minutes into the conversation, the translator stopped interpreting, after Vanessa’s mother Gloria made a request of Trump. This was first reported in the podcast In the Thick with Maria Hinojosa. Let’s go ahead with the translation that we did.
GLORIA GUILLÉN: [translated] My daughter’s story is now history. My daughter’s story is the story of the whole nation, of the whole world. I’ve dreamed of my daughter many times, and she tells me to save the children, to save the children. I don’t know which children she speaks of, but I want you to help me. I don’t know if it’s the children on the border, but if she tells me to save the children, I want you to help me with the children. She is history now, and you can be part of that history, if you help by doing something good for this nation.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s Gloria Guillén, Vanessa’s mother, saying to President Trump, dreaming of her daughter telling her to be concerned about the children. She wasn’t sure if they were children on the border. The significance of this? And as we end, Pam, what the latest with — found with Elder Fernandes’s remains and the charges that he, too, was being sexually harassed? They say he took his own life.
PAM CAMPOS-PALMA: Yeah. I can’t repeat it enough. Gloria Guillén has been one of the most clear. And one of the biggest failings in this whole process is she doesn’t speak English, right? But she has been very clear in her pursuit. And one of the things that has made these cases different and has shed a greater light has been a working-class immigrant woman, immigrant families, who are not playing into the blind adulation of military generals and just blindly trusting them, and saying, “We demand accountability.” Gloria Guillén was brave to not only tell the president, to tell Congress, to tell military top brass, “Shut down Fort Hood. It is not a good for anyone.” And I think in this moment we are in an inflection point in this nation where everyday Americans are questioning the institutions that continue to fail us.
She has also said if there is no justice for these dead soldiers, then we will not in good conscience continue to promote enlistment of our young people, particularly when Black and Brown people are among the highest rates of enlistment. And so, whether it’s Kenosha, Wisconsin, and the systemic failures by police, who also like to investigate themselves, to the military’s continued failings, treating everyday soldiers like government property, throwing us into endless wars with no real questions or strategy, this is now the time to divest from violence and invest in real solutions that treat us in our full humanity.
And so I was not surprised to see an immigrant, Gloria Guillén, making these demands, in a time where our country is really grappling with what safety, safety for who, defense for who, who is protected. And we will continue to organize for Vanessa Guillén, Elder Fernandes, and for true accountability from the Department of Defense and Congress.
AMY GOODMAN: We want to thank you so much for being with us, Pam Campos-Palma, political strategist with the Working Families Party, she herself an Air Force military intelligence vet, head of the Vets for the People project.
Next, we go to Belarus, where mass protests continue to demand the resignation of President Alexander Lukashenko amidst a brutal government crackdown. Stay with us.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: “We Demand Equality” by Yariel Roaro, in honor of Vanessa Guillén.


democracynow--2020-09-03--Headlines for September  3, 2020

Headlines for September  3, 2020

The U.S. has imposed sanctions on the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court and another top ICC official .
Secretary of State Mike Pompeo announced the move Wednesday .
Secretary of State Mike Pompeo : “ In June , the Trump administration authorized the imposition of economic sanctions against foreign persons directly engaged in ICC efforts to investigate U.S. or allied personnel , and those who materially assisted in those — in that effort .
Today we take the next step , because the ICC continues to target Americans , sadly.
” The Trump administration has repeatedly attacked the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ U.S. troops in Afghanistan , as well as Israeli crimes in the Occupied Territories .
Human rights and legal groups criticized the Trump administration ’ s move .
Katherine Gallagher is a lawyer at the Center for Constitutional Rights .
She represents victims of both U.S. and Israeli war crimes .
Katherine Gallagher : “ The sanctions announced by Secretary of State Mike Pompeo against Fatou Bensouda , the prosecutor of the ICC , constitutes a frontal attack on the rule of law .
… This action shows that the Trump administration is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ criminals rather than with victims of war crimes , genocide and crimes against humanity .
”

The U.S. has imposed sanctions on the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court and another top ICC official. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo announced the move Wednesday.
Secretary of State Mike Pompeo: “In June, the Trump administration authorized the imposition of economic sanctions against foreign persons directly engaged in ICC efforts to investigate U.S. or allied personnel, and those who materially assisted in those — in that effort. Today we take the next step, because the ICC continues to target Americans, sadly.”
The Trump administration has repeatedly attacked the ICC for investigating war crimes committed by U.S. troops in Afghanistan, as well as Israeli crimes in the Occupied Territories. Human rights and legal groups criticized the Trump administration’s move. Katherine Gallagher is a lawyer at the Center for Constitutional Rights. She represents victims of both U.S. and Israeli war crimes.


democracynow--2020-09-04--"We Are the 99%": Occupy Wall Street Activist & Author David Graeber, Dead at 59, in His Own Words

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : “ Upon This Hill ” by John Halle , featuring David Graeber .
This is Democracy Now !
The Quarantine Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman , as we end today ’ s show with the acclaimed anthropologist , author and anarchist David Graeber , who has died at the age of 59 in Venice , Italy .
David was a veteran of an international anti-capitalist movement that pushed for a different vision of globalization , not of capitalist markets but @ @ @ @ @ @ @ His influential book Debt : The First 5,000 Years made the case for sweeping debt cancellation and was dedicated to Kenneth Graeber , a Lincoln vet of the Spanish Civil War , David ’ s father .
David Graeber helped organize the initial Occupy Wall Street protest September 17th , 2011 , and was credited with helping to coin the phrase “ We are the 99 % .
” He wrote on his website it was a communal effort .
He said , “ I did first suggest that we call ourselves the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and a Greek anarchist added the 'we ' and later a food-not-bombs veteran put the 'are ' between them .
And they say you can ’ t create something worthwhile by committee !
” In 2011 , David Graeber spoke on Democracy Now !
, two days after the Occupy encampment began .
DAVID GRAEBER : Oh , Adbusters , the magazine based in Toronto , so they ’ re quite far away from Wall Street .
They had this conception , and they thought they could bring it into being .
Bunch @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , relatively unprepared for what to expect , on August 2nd , when they called a general meeting .
And after a little bit of uncertainty , we sort of started putting together a process .
We decided to model it on the idea of the sort of horizontal direct democracy they had in Europe .
And in a way , the Wall Street action was one focus , but the very idea of building a kind of general assembly movement was a lot of what we ’ re really about .
DAVID @ @ @ @ @ @ @ doing in Europe is essentially trying to reinvent democracy .
The idea is that , you know , all of the political parties have basically bankrupted themselves .
They ’ re all essentially bought and sold by the financial elite that ’ s created this crisis .
There ’ s no possibility of their actually coming up with a solution .
And sometimes you have to start over .
People have to , like , go into their public squares , meet each other , start talking to each other , and start @ @ @ @ @ @ @ essentially , the idea is the system is not going to save us ; we ’ re going to have to save ourselves .
So , we ’ re going to try to get as many people as possible to camp in some public place and start rebuilding society as we ’ d like to see it .
… DAVID GRAEBER : Well , one of the things that I discovered in researching my book is that the kind of debt crisis we ’ re experiencing now , being a real debt crisis @ @ @ @ @ @ @ affects ordinary people , debts between the very wealthy or between governments can always be renegotiated and always have been throughout world history .
They ’ re not anything set in stone .
It ’ s , generally speaking , when you have debts owed by the poor to the rich that suddenly debts become a sacred obligation , more important than anything else .
The idea of renegotiating them becomes unthinkable .
In the past , though , there have been mechanisms , when things get to a point of real social @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And they vary by the period of history .
In the ancient Middle East , often new kings would simply declare a clean slate and cancel all debts , or all consumer debts , commercial debts , between merchants were often left alone .
The Jubilee was a way of institutionalizing that .
In the Middle Ages , there were bans on interest taking entirely .
There have been many mechanisms .
But whenever you have what I call a period of virtual credit money , when money is recognized not to be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ but a social relation or promise that people make to each other , which has become increasingly clear since the '70s , when we went off the gold standard — and I think 2008 really brought that home — debts can be renegotiated .
They 're not set in stone .
Trillions of dollars of debt was made to disappear .
We understand now that this is a political arrangement , and it can always be readjusted .
And I think what the people coming to the squares — and Wall Street now @ @ @ @ @ @ @ well , if that ’ s true , if democracy is going to mean anything now , we ’ re all going to have to be able to weigh in on what sort of promises are made and what sort of promises are adjusted when you enter into a crisis .
DAVID GRAEBER : Well , the interesting thing is that most of the developing nations have actually pulled themselves out of the situation .
Structural adjustment has come home to Europe and America .
I think it would be a great idea @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that we really are in a different age , that money doesn ’ t mean the same thing as it used to .
And there are people who have tried it .
Saudi Arabia , actually most dramatically , that was their reaction to the Arab Spring : They declared a debt cancellation .
So there are precedents .
I mean , they kind of don ’ t want people to know that they did it , for obvious reasons , but they did .
DAVID GRAEBER : The crisis now in Europe @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
The austerity regimes that are being imposed now on Europe and on America are remarkably similar to what happened — you know , what used to be called the Third World debt crisis .
First you declare a financial debt — a financial crisis .
You bring in these people who are supposedly neutral technocrats , who are in fact enforcing this extreme neoliberal ideology .
You bypass all democratic accountability and impose things that no one ever possibly have agreed to .
It ’ s the same thing .
And one @ @ @ @ @ @ @ now is that there was really successful mobilization around the world against those policies .
In a lot of ways , the global justice movement was successful .
The IMF was kicked out of East Asia .
It was kicked out of Latin America .
And now it ’ s come home to us .
AMY GOODMAN : That ’ s David Graeber speaking on Democracy Now !
in 2011 , two days after the launch of Occupy Wall Street .
He died Wednesday at the age of 59 in Venice , Italy @ @ @ @ @ @ @ full interview at democracynow.org .
David Graeber once wrote , quote , “ The ultimate , hidden truth of the world is that it is something that we make , and could just as easily make differently.
” And that does it for our show .
Remember , on this holiday weekend , stay safe , wear a mask , socially distance , save lives .
Happy Labor Day .
I ’ m Amy Goodman .
Thanks so much for joining us .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: “Upon This Hill” by John Halle, featuring David Graeber. This is Democracy Now! The Quarantine Report. I’m Amy Goodman, as we end today’s show with the acclaimed anthropologist, author and anarchist David Graeber, who has died at the age of 59 in Venice, Italy.
David was a veteran of an international anti-capitalist movement that pushed for a different vision of globalization, not of capitalist markets but of human liberty and worker power. His influential book Debt: The First 5,000 Years made the case for sweeping debt cancellation and was dedicated to Kenneth Graeber, a Lincoln vet of the Spanish Civil War, David’s father.
David Graeber helped organize the initial Occupy Wall Street protest September 17th, 2011, and was credited with helping to coin the phrase “We are the 99%.” He wrote on his website it was a communal effort. He said, “I did first suggest that we call ourselves the 99%. Then two Spanish indignados and a Greek anarchist added the 'we' and later a food-not-bombs veteran put the 'are' between them. And they say you can’t create something worthwhile by committee!”
In 2011, David Graeber spoke on Democracy Now!, two days after the Occupy encampment began.
DAVID GRAEBER: It was originally a call from Adbusters. It was just sort of thrown out into the blue.
AMY GOODMAN: And explain what Adbusters is.
DAVID GRAEBER: Oh, Adbusters, the magazine based in Toronto, so they’re quite far away from Wall Street. They had this conception, and they thought they could bring it into being. Bunch of us showed up, you know, relatively unprepared for what to expect, on August 2nd, when they called a general meeting. And after a little bit of uncertainty, we sort of started putting together a process. We decided to model it on the idea of the sort of horizontal direct democracy they had in Europe. And in a way, the Wall Street action was one focus, but the very idea of building a kind of general assembly movement was a lot of what we’re really about.
AMY GOODMAN: And explain what you mean by “general assembly” and exactly how the process started on Saturday.
DAVID GRAEBER: Well, what people are doing in Europe is essentially trying to reinvent democracy. The idea is that, you know, all of the political parties have basically bankrupted themselves. They’re all essentially bought and sold by the financial elite that’s created this crisis. There’s no possibility of their actually coming up with a solution. And sometimes you have to start over. People have to, like, go into their public squares, meet each other, start talking to each other, and start brainstorming of ideas. I mean, essentially, the idea is the system is not going to save us; we’re going to have to save ourselves. So, we’re going to try to get as many people as possible to camp in some public place and start rebuilding society as we’d like to see it. …
AMY GOODMAN: David Graeber, talk about debt cancellation.
DAVID GRAEBER: Well, one of the things that I discovered in researching my book is that the kind of debt crisis we’re experiencing now, being a real debt crisis, which is a debt crisis that affects ordinary people, debts between the very wealthy or between governments can always be renegotiated and always have been throughout world history. They’re not anything set in stone. It’s, generally speaking, when you have debts owed by the poor to the rich that suddenly debts become a sacred obligation, more important than anything else. The idea of renegotiating them becomes unthinkable. In the past, though, there have been mechanisms, when things get to a point of real social crisis, that have always existed. And they vary by the period of history. In the ancient Middle East, often new kings would simply declare a clean slate and cancel all debts, or all consumer debts, commercial debts, between merchants were often left alone. The Jubilee was a way of institutionalizing that. In the Middle Ages, there were bans on interest taking entirely. There have been many mechanisms.
But whenever you have what I call a period of virtual credit money, when money is recognized not to be a thing like gold and silver, but a social relation or promise that people make to each other, which has become increasingly clear since the '70s, when we went off the gold standard — and I think 2008 really brought that home — debts can be renegotiated. They're not set in stone. Trillions of dollars of debt was made to disappear. We understand now that this is a political arrangement, and it can always be readjusted. And I think what the people coming to the squares — and Wall Street now included — are saying is that, well, if that’s true, if democracy is going to mean anything now, we’re all going to have to be able to weigh in on what sort of promises are made and what sort of promises are adjusted when you enter into a crisis.
AMY GOODMAN: We hear about debt cancellation when we’re talking about developing nations. What about the United States?
DAVID GRAEBER: Well, the interesting thing is that most of the developing nations have actually pulled themselves out of the situation. Structural adjustment has come home to Europe and America. I think it would be a great idea. I think it would bring home that we really are in a different age, that money doesn’t mean the same thing as it used to. And there are people who have tried it. Saudi Arabia, actually most dramatically, that was their reaction to the Arab Spring: They declared a debt cancellation. So there are precedents. I mean, they kind of don’t want people to know that they did it, for obvious reasons, but they did.
AMY GOODMAN: And the crisis now in Europe?
DAVID GRAEBER: The crisis now in Europe is an example of the same thing. The austerity regimes that are being imposed now on Europe and on America are remarkably similar to what happened — you know, what used to be called the Third World debt crisis. First you declare a financial debt — a financial crisis. You bring in these people who are supposedly neutral technocrats, who are in fact enforcing this extreme neoliberal ideology. You bypass all democratic accountability and impose things that no one ever possibly have agreed to. It’s the same thing. And one reason it’s happening to us now is that there was really successful mobilization around the world against those policies. In a lot of ways, the global justice movement was successful. The IMF was kicked out of East Asia. It was kicked out of Latin America. And now it’s come home to us.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to thank you for being with us. And how long do you expect these Wall Street protests, part of which you helped to organize, to continue?
DAVID GRAEBER: As long as we possibly can.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s David Graeber speaking on Democracy Now! in 2011, two days after the launch of Occupy Wall Street. He died Wednesday at the age of 59 in Venice, Italy. We’ll link to the full interview at democracynow.org. David Graeber once wrote, quote, “The ultimate, hidden truth of the world is that it is something that we make, and could just as easily make differently.”
And that does it for our show. Remember, on this holiday weekend, stay safe, wear a mask, socially distance, save lives. Happy Labor Day. I’m Amy Goodman. Thanks so much for joining us.


democracynow--2020-09-04--"Death Is on the Ballot": Lessons for the US, 50 Years After Allende's Socialist Revolution in Chile

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
I ’ m Amy Goodman .
The Quarantine Report .
Our next guest writes today in the Los Angeles Times , “ Fifty years ago today , on the night of Sept. 4 , 1970 , I was dancing , along with a multitude of others , in the streets of Santiago de Chile .
We were celebrating the election of Salvador Allende , the first democratically elected socialist leader in the world .
“ President Allende @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Chile .
Before then , political revolutions had been violent , imposed by force of arms .
Allende and his left-wing coalition used peaceful means , proclaiming it unnecessary to repress one ’ s adversaries to achieve social justice .
Radical change could happen within the confines and promises of a democracy , ” he writes .
Ariel Dorfman went on to become the cultural and press adviser to President Allende ’ s chief of staff during the last months of his presidency in 1973 .
He continues , “ I have often @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be if Allende had not been overthrown , three years later , in a bloody coup .
I wonder where humanity would be if his peaceful revolution had been allowed to run its course and become a template for other countries.
” Those words from today ’ s op-ed in the Los Angeles Times by our Ariel Dorfman , the Chilean American best-selling author , human rights defender , playwright , poet and distinguished professor emeritus of literature at Duke University , joining us now from Durham , North Carolina .
We welcome @ @ @ @ @ @ @ about what happened 50 years ago , the way the word “ socialist ” is thrown around in the United States today by the leaders of this country , and what you see are the lessons from Chile .
ARIEL DORFMAN : Well , it ’ s great to be back with you , Amy .
Allende ’ s revolution , which was a peaceful revolution , was the attempt to put the resources of the country and the future of the country into the hands of the majority .
Chile had been @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , where most of our resources were controlled from abroad , many by American companies , where the land was not tilled by the people — was tilled by the people , but those people didn ’ t get the riches or prosperity that they had .
And Allende basically was a movement for social justice and for putting in the center of history the real protagonist of that history , which are the everyday men and women who built the country , I mean , the essential workers — right ?
— @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are generally left behind and neglected and forgotten .
So it was a moment in history which is very , very important , because Allende was saying to the world , “ We do not need to repress , eliminate , censor our adversaries .
We don ’ t need to kill other people , in order to have social justice .
We can do this through peaceful means.
” And so , Allende joins Gandhi and Martin Luther King and so many other wonderful people of history saying there is a way @ @ @ @ @ @ @ everything , everything that — we don ’ t have to leave the world in the same way in which we found it .
We can create a different world ahead of us .
And it was a wonderful experiment .
It was an experiment that lasted 1,000 days .
But in those 1,000 days , wonderful things happened .
AMY GOODMAN : So , I wanted to go to today , to the Republican National Convention , to the former governor of South Carolina , then the U.S. ambassador to the United @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : So , that ’ s Nikki Haley .
And , of course , President Trump repeatedly talks about socialism .
This was the State of the Union .
ARIEL DORFMAN : Well , listen , I would be glad if America were a socialist country , because then people would not be starving .
There wouldn ’ t be racism in the way we ’ ve got it .
Everyone would have healthcare , and the economy would be much , much better off .
But socialism isn ’ t on the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is on the ballot .
Healthcare for all is going to be on the ballot .
Infrastructure is going to be on the ballot .
Racial justice is going to be on the ballot .
I mean , there ’ s lots of things that are going to be on the ballot , but not necessarily socialist .
And Trump is simply deranged , as we know .
He lies about everything .
And , you know , when your previous guest , Professor Stanley , spoke about fascism , I remember two @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , the whole campaign against Allende during the Allende government was exactly what Professor Stanley is speaking about , but exactly , you know ?
That we are diseased , the law and order , we ’ re going to come — we ’ re going to rape your women .
The socialists are going to rape your women .
Well , of course , the people who ended up raping women and children were the fascists who took the reins of government after they overthrew Allende .
So , they spoke about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ about the nationalism .
They spoke about sexual unease .
Every one of those little fascist things that you mentioned there was part of the campaign against Allende , which was in great measure paid for by the CIA and Nixon and Kissinger .
Besides that , after , when Pinochet took power on September 11th , 1973 , the whole policy of the Pinochet government was exactly what Professor Stanley is saying , taking the exact same points .
So , socialism isn ’ t a problem that ’ s ahead , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to decide whether sweeping change is going to come .
And I think that the country is ready for those sweeping reforms , just like the sort of sweeping reforms that we had to do in Chile , because there are moments when you need to change things drastically in order to make things better .
And , in fact , Joe Biden and Harris are the party to security .
In fact , they ’ re the party of stability , not the party of chaos .
If anybody is creating chaos @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and all his enablers .
And they will go down in history as accomplices to murder .
ARIEL DORFMAN : Mass murder , by the way .
Mass murder , not just general murder .
AMY GOODMAN : Well , let me ask you about the U.S. topping 6 million cases of coronavirus , 187,000 deaths , could be 400,000 by January 1st .
You say the pandemic is teaching Americans what it ’ s like to live in exile .
Explain .
ARIEL DORFMAN : Yes , I think that we are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ lived in exile a great part of my life , and I ’ ve been an immigrant a great part of my life .
And we are used to distancing .
We are used to discovering in distance the capacity that we have to connect with one another , the capacity we have — if you think about the immigrants , immigrants have come into a country , and when we come into this country , we see everything with new eyes .
And I ’ m suggesting that that experience is one @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have .
In fact , I ’ m suggesting that even confinement may lead to enormous advances in literature and art , some of the greatest art .
I have a novel that just came out called Cautivos , which is about Cervantes in the jail of Seville .
And he created the greatest novel of all time , Don Quixote de la Mancha , right ?
And he created it in circumstances of confinement , of extreme confinement .
And some of the greatest literature has been done either in exile — @ @ @ @ @ @ @ re distanced from others , when you ’ ve lost everything , when you ’ ve lost your country and you have to refound everything , you have to rethink everything — or in confinement , when you ’ re isolated and you have time to look into yourself and say , “ What is the real meaning of life ?
What is real happiness ?
How will we connect with one another ?
How will we seek and imagine a different sort of future ?
” So , those are things that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I ’ m an optimist .
I think it ’ s terrible , what ’ s happening .
I would not wish it on the worst of my enemies , this pandemic we ’ re living through .
But it is a chance for us to think again about what it means to be isolated , what it means to lose a country , what it means to lose everyday life , what it means not to go to the funeral of the people we love , not to be able to hug @ @ @ @ @ @ @ all over the world .
We can ’ t do that , right ?
We ’ re separated from ourselves .
And yet , from that pain , I think that new things can be born .
We ’ re like phoenixes in that sense .
We rise from the ashes .
And we rise from the ashes with our imagination , with our compassion , with our ability to think and to rethink the world in a different way .
I think that ’ s what ’ s really , really going @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
We have to decide whether we ’ re going towards a different sort of future , imagine the possibility of that future , or whether we ’ re going to get in a stranglehold of a past and die in that .
And many people will die because of it .
I mean , death is on the ballot .
Death is on the ballot this November .
It is a matter of life and death , what ’ s going to happen .
AMY GOODMAN : Ariel Dorfman , I want @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , Chilean American best-selling author , human rights defender , playwright and poet .
We will link to your op-ed in the Los Angeles Times today headlined “ I danced in the streets after Allende ’ s victory in Chile 50 years ago .
Now I see its lessons for today.
” He was the cultural and press adviser to President Allende during the last months of his presidency in 1973 .
Salvador Allende died in the palace in Santiago September 11th , 1973 , as the authoritarian dictator Augusto Pinochet , supported @ @ @ @ @ @ @ States , rose to power .
Pinochet would kill thousands of people in the years to come .
This is Democracy Now !
When we come back , we remember David Graeber in his own words .
Stay with us .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now! I’m Amy Goodman. The Quarantine Report.
Our next guest writes today in the Los Angeles Times, “Fifty years ago today, on the night of Sept. 4, 1970, I was dancing, along with a multitude of others, in the streets of Santiago de Chile. We were celebrating the election of Salvador Allende, the first democratically elected socialist leader in the world.
“President Allende’s victory had historical significance beyond Chile. Before then, political revolutions had been violent, imposed by force of arms. Allende and his left-wing coalition used peaceful means, proclaiming it unnecessary to repress one’s adversaries to achieve social justice. Radical change could happen within the confines and promises of a democracy,” he writes.
Ariel Dorfman went on to become the cultural and press adviser to President Allende’s chief of staff during the last months of his presidency in 1973. He continues, “I have often fantasized about how different the world would be if Allende had not been overthrown, three years later, in a bloody coup. I wonder where humanity would be if his peaceful revolution had been allowed to run its course and become a template for other countries.”
Those words from today’s op-ed in the Los Angeles Times by our Ariel Dorfman, the Chilean American best-selling author, human rights defender, playwright, poet and distinguished professor emeritus of literature at Duke University, joining us now from Durham, North Carolina.
We welcome you back to Democracy Now! Talk about what happened 50 years ago, the way the word “socialist” is thrown around in the United States today by the leaders of this country, and what you see are the lessons from Chile.
ARIEL DORFMAN: Well, it’s great to be back with you, Amy.
Allende’s revolution, which was a peaceful revolution, was the attempt to put the resources of the country and the future of the country into the hands of the majority. Chile had been a country that had had incredible poverty, where most of our resources were controlled from abroad, many by American companies, where the land was not tilled by the people — was tilled by the people, but those people didn’t get the riches or prosperity that they had. And Allende basically was a movement for social justice and for putting in the center of history the real protagonist of that history, which are the everyday men and women who built the country, I mean, the essential workers — right? — that are now so praised but who are generally left behind and neglected and forgotten.
So it was a moment in history which is very, very important, because Allende was saying to the world, “We do not need to repress, eliminate, censor our adversaries. We don’t need to kill other people, in order to have social justice. We can do this through peaceful means.” And so, Allende joins Gandhi and Martin Luther King and so many other wonderful people of history saying there is a way of changing the reality, of changing everything, everything that — we don’t have to leave the world in the same way in which we found it. We can create a different world ahead of us. And it was a wonderful experiment. It was an experiment that lasted 1,000 days. But in those 1,000 days, wonderful things happened.
AMY GOODMAN: So, I wanted to go to today, to the Republican National Convention, to the former governor of South Carolina, then the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Nikki Haley.
NIKKI HALEY: A Biden-Harris administration would be much, much worse. Last time, Joe’s boss was Obama. This time, it would be Pelosi, Sanders and the Squad. Their vision for America is socialism. And we know that socialism has failed everywhere. They want to tell Americans how to live and what to think. They want a government takeover of healthcare. They want to ban fracking and kill millions of jobs. They want massive tax hikes on working families. Joe Biden and the socialist left would be a disaster for our economy.
AMY GOODMAN: So, that’s Nikki Haley. And, of course, President Trump repeatedly talks about socialism. This was the State of the Union.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Tonight we renew our resolve that America will never be a socialist country.
AMY GOODMAN: Ariel Dorfman, please respond.
ARIEL DORFMAN: Well, listen, I would be glad if America were a socialist country, because then people would not be starving. There wouldn’t be racism in the way we’ve got it. Everyone would have healthcare, and the economy would be much, much better off.
But socialism isn’t on the ballot, you know? Social justice is on the ballot. Healthcare for all is going to be on the ballot. Infrastructure is going to be on the ballot. Racial justice is going to be on the ballot. I mean, there’s lots of things that are going to be on the ballot, but not necessarily socialist. And Trump is simply deranged, as we know. He lies about everything.
And, you know, when your previous guest, Professor Stanley, spoke about fascism, I remember two very different things. First of all, the whole campaign against Allende during the Allende government was exactly what Professor Stanley is speaking about, but exactly, you know? That we are diseased, the law and order, we’re going to come — we’re going to rape your women. The socialists are going to rape your women. Well, of course, the people who ended up raping women and children were the fascists who took the reins of government after they overthrew Allende. So, they spoke about foreigners infiltrating the country. They spoke about the nationalism. They spoke about sexual unease. Every one of those little fascist things that you mentioned there was part of the campaign against Allende, which was in great measure paid for by the CIA and Nixon and Kissinger. Besides that, after, when Pinochet took power on September 11th, 1973, the whole policy of the Pinochet government was exactly what Professor Stanley is saying, taking the exact same points.
So, socialism isn’t a problem that’s ahead, you know? But people will have to decide whether sweeping change is going to come. And I think that the country is ready for those sweeping reforms, just like the sort of sweeping reforms that we had to do in Chile, because there are moments when you need to change things drastically in order to make things better. And, in fact, Joe Biden and Harris are the party to security. In fact, they’re the party of stability, not the party of chaos. If anybody is creating chaos, it is people like Donald Trump and all his enablers. And they will go down in history as accomplices to murder.
AMY GOODMAN: I daresay that you —
ARIEL DORFMAN: Mass murder, by the way. Mass murder, not just general murder.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, let me ask you about the U.S. topping 6 million cases of coronavirus, 187,000 deaths, could be 400,000 by January 1st. You say the pandemic is teaching Americans what it’s like to live in exile. Explain.
ARIEL DORFMAN: Yes, I think that we are — you know, I’ve lived in exile a great part of my life, and I’ve been an immigrant a great part of my life. And we are used to distancing. We are used to discovering in distance the capacity that we have to connect with one another, the capacity we have — if you think about the immigrants, immigrants have come into a country, and when we come into this country, we see everything with new eyes. And I’m suggesting that that experience is one which Americans are going to have to have.
In fact, I’m suggesting that even confinement may lead to enormous advances in literature and art, some of the greatest art. I have a novel that just came out called Cautivos, which is about Cervantes in the jail of Seville. And he created the greatest novel of all time, Don Quixote de la Mancha, right? And he created it in circumstances of confinement, of extreme confinement. And some of the greatest literature has been done either in exile — in other words, when you’re distanced from others, when you’ve lost everything, when you’ve lost your country and you have to refound everything, you have to rethink everything — or in confinement, when you’re isolated and you have time to look into yourself and say, “What is the real meaning of life? What is real happiness? How will we connect with one another? How will we seek and imagine a different sort of future?”
So, those are things that, strangely enough — you know, I’m an optimist. I think it’s terrible, what’s happening. I would not wish it on the worst of my enemies, this pandemic we’re living through. But it is a chance for us to think again about what it means to be isolated, what it means to lose a country, what it means to lose everyday life, what it means not to go to the funeral of the people we love, not to be able to hug the people we love — like immigrants all over the world. We can’t do that, right? We’re separated from ourselves. And yet, from that pain, I think that new things can be born. We’re like phoenixes in that sense. We rise from the ashes. And we rise from the ashes with our imagination, with our compassion, with our ability to think and to rethink the world in a different way.
I think that’s what’s really, really going to happen in the next few months. We have to decide whether we’re going towards a different sort of future, imagine the possibility of that future, or whether we’re going to get in a stranglehold of a past and die in that. And many people will die because of it. I mean, death is on the ballot. Death is on the ballot this November. It is a matter of life and death, what’s going to happen.
AMY GOODMAN: Ariel Dorfman, I want to thank you for being with us, Chilean American best-selling author, human rights defender, playwright and poet. We will link to your op-ed in the Los Angeles Times today headlined “I danced in the streets after Allende’s victory in Chile 50 years ago. Now I see its lessons for today.” He was the cultural and press adviser to President Allende during the last months of his presidency in 1973. Salvador Allende died in the palace in Santiago September 11th, 1973, as the authoritarian dictator Augusto Pinochet, supported by the Nixon government in the United States, rose to power. Pinochet would kill thousands of people in the years to come.
This is Democracy Now! When we come back, we remember David Graeber in his own words. Stay with us.


democracynow--2020-09-04--How Fascism Works: Trump's "Law & Order" Is Lawlessness, Fueling Racist Violence & Chaos

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
, democracynow.org , The Quarantine Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman .
AMY GOODMAN : “ Twelve more years.
” That was how Donald Trump kicked off the Republican National Convention from North Carolina last week , where he flew for the roll call vote .
The convention came amidst a nationwide uprising against police brutality , just days after the shooting of Jacob Blake in Kenosha , Wisconsin , and while people continued to demand @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in the streets .
But Vice President Mike Pence did not say their names when he addressed the RNC ; instead , he focused on the killing of federal security officer David Patrick Underwood in Oakland , California .
AMY GOODMAN : But Vice President Pence left out a key part of the story .
The man charged with Underwood ’ s death was not a Black Lives Matter activist , but a man with ties to the far-right “ boogaloo ” movement , which has used protests against police brutality as a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ did not mention Kyle Rittenhouse , the 17-year-old white vigilante who killed two protesters in the streets of Kenosha last week .
On Monday , President Trump refused to condemn Rittenhouse , saying the gunman probably would have been killed had he not attacked the protesters .
This comes as Trump has openly embraced supporters of the far-right conspiracy theory QAnon , describing them as “ people that love our country.
” Last month , he refused to question the central plank of the conspiracy theory when questioned by a reporter .
AMY @ @ @ @ @ @ @ an apparent reference to the QAnon conspiracy theory , Trump claimed Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden is being secretly controlled by people in the , quote , “ dark shadows.
” He made the comment during an interview with Laura Ingraham of Fox News .
AMY GOODMAN : President Trump provided no evidence to back up his claim about thugs on planes .
He initially claimed the plane was headed to the Republican National Convention .
On Tuesday , he told reporters the plane was going from Washington to , quote , “ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ claim is very similar to a conspiracy theory started in June by a man in Idaho that went viral within far-right circles on social media .
Well , to connect these dots , from the Republican National Convention to white supremacists in the streets of U.S. cities to the president ’ s embrace of fringe conspiracy theories , we ’ re joined now by Yale professor Jason Stanley .
He ’ s a renowned philosopher and scholar of propaganda who wrote the book _How Fascism Works : The Politics of Us and Them @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of refugees of World War II .
He ’ s a professor of philosophy at Yale University , joining us from New Haven , Connecticut .
Welcome back to Democracy Now !
, Professor Stanley .
You were on when the book was first published two years ago , right in the middle of the Trump presidency .
And now either we ’ re nearing its end or he will be reelected again .
But talk about what you just listened to , and why you feel your book , How Fascism Works @ @ @ @ @ @ @ JASON STANLEY : So , fascism is a cult of the leader who promises national restoration in the face of supposed threats by leftist radicals , minorities and immigrants .
He promises only he can save us .
In the RNC , what we saw is we saw a cult of the leader .
The Republicans didn ’ t even bother to provide a platform .
They just said , “ Whatever Trump wants.
” We saw four of the six long speeches given by Trumps .
So , Hannah Arendt , in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ first step towards authoritarianism is when a political party starts to value party over parties , meaning one political party treats other political parties not as legitimate opposition but as traitors to the country .
The next step is when that political party , that engages in this kind of behavior , just becomes taken over by a social and political movement devoted to one leader .
And that , I fear , is what we ’ re seeing .
When I published my book two years ago , people accused me of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ listed reasons why we shouldn ’ t be afraid of fascism in America , despite its deep roots in this country .
And the reasons they ’ ve given , I ’ m afraid , have fallen to the wayside .
They ’ ve given reasons like , you know , the institutions remain independent , the Justice Department remains independent .
They ’ ve given reasons like there are no right-wing militias tacitly endorsed by the administration .
So , Arendt calls our attention to the fact that the Nazi government refused @ @ @ @ @ @ @ right-wing , far-right violent people on the streets attacking Jews .
They refused to condemn them .
They didn ’ t endorse them ; they just refused to condemn them .
And Arendt said that was giving them permission .
So , you know , we ’ ve seen four years of chaos here , and yet we ’ re being told that this is law and order .
So , we ’ re seeing militias on the street endorsed by the president .
We ’ re seeing the administration echo a conspiracy @ @ @ @ @ @ @ great deal like The Protocols of the Elders of Zion , which is the early 20th century conspiracy that Judeo-Bolsheviks were behind liberalism and controlled the media , controlled the cultural institutions , where bankers were in cahoots with media and the art world to bring about world communism .
We saw that at the RNC .
Senator Tim Scott talked about Manhattan elites and Hollywood moguls supposedly trying to bring socialism to the United States .
This mixture of a wealthy elite and communists is reminiscent of some of the worst conspiracy @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I ’ m very concerned here .
We ’ re seeing — people said , “ It ’ s not fascism , because they ’ re not attacking democracy.
” Well , what are the attacks on the elections about , if not attacks on democracy ?
So , while I don ’ t think Trump himself has a vision , has some kind of grand vision , as the fascists of yore has , as Timothy Snyder has called it , this is “ not-even fascism.
” I think we ’ re @ @ @ @ @ @ @ like Stephen Miller , with all the sort of white supremacist ideologues in this administration , that could bring about , definitely , a turn to authoritarianism .
It ’ s definitely an attack on democracy that the RNC represented .
AMY GOODMAN : I want to go to — back to the Republican convention , to President Trump formally accepting the nomination before a crowd of about 1,500 people crowded onto the South Lawn of the White House .
During his acceptance speech , Trump made no reference to the police shooting @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , or the killing of the two protesters that had just happened in Kenosha by a 17-year-old white Trump-supporting vigilante .
AMY GOODMAN : So , Professor Stanley , as you have a white officer shooting at point-blank range seven times in the back Jacob Blake just days before , and then two Black Lives Matter activists shot dead in the streets of Kenosha by a Trump-supporting gunman , no mention of them , but talking about mob rule in the streets somewhere of cities that are run by Democrats .
JASON STANLEY @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s two chapters in my book — my book is a 10-part characterization of fascist tactics .
There ’ s two parts in my — two chapters in my book that are deeply relevant for what is happening now : obviously , chapter seven , “ Law and Order , ” and chapter nine , “ Sodom and Gomorrah.
” What is meant by “ Sodom and Gomorrah ” ?
Chapter two of Hitler ’ s book Mein Kampf is called “ My Study and Struggles in Vienna , ” and he talks @ @ @ @ @ @ @ city , the capital of Austria , filled with foreigners , dirty , diseased , all sorts of different languages , filled with immigrants , and then the hated minority group , which for him were Jews .
So , what we see is a repetition of this tactic : an attack on cities .
Hypocritical , of course — Trump is from Queens .
But what Trump is doing is trying to represent cities as filled with foreigners , minorities and disease .
Earlier , he described New York City as filled @ @ @ @ @ @ @ think yesterday or , I think , in the last 24 hours , he said he blamed the COVID deaths on New York City .
So , the idea is an attack on — you know , cities are dens of iniquity and foreignness .
Real Americans live in rural areas outside the cities .
And the cities are where you have mobs out of control , immigrants .
There ’ s sanctuary cities .
This is a classic tactic of this kind of far-right fascist politics .
And then law and order @ @ @ @ @ @ @ law and order ” here ?
Not when — you know , Kyle Rittenhouse is not a violation of law and order .
Kyle Rittenhouse , who murdered two people , who killed two people , is — he ’ s a radicalized 17-year-old .
He ’ s not a violation of law and order , because white Trump supporters are law-abiding by their nature .
The Trump rally we saw in Portland , shooting paintballs , aggressive against the counterprotesters , that was law-abiding .
They were peaceful protesters , because on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ young Black men are , in and of themselves , violators of law and order .
Leftist protesters against Trump can be doing nothing but rioting and looting .
Now , any protest — almost any protest is going to have elements with bad apples that become violent .
Look at the Hong Kong protests .
The Hong Kong became much more violent than anything we ’ ve seen here .
Nevertheless , the Republicans did not denounce the Hong Kong protests as riots .
Do you know who denounced the Hong Kong @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
What we ’ re seeing here is our government behave like the Chinese government , representing largely peaceful protests , with some bad elements that grow violent and should be condemned , as riots .
And that ’ s a counterinsurgency , authoritarian tactic .
“ Law and order ” here does not mean law and order .
Does this feel like law and order ?
Do the last four years feel like law and order ?
That very speech that we witnessed at the RNC was a violation of law and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ White House grounds in violation of the Hatch Act , so , you know — and proudly so , because this administration revels in its violation of law and order , because , in fascism , “ law and order ” means whatever the leader says , and “ law-abiding ” means whoever the leader is , and “ lawless ” means the men of the minority group and leftists and radicals , supposed leftist radicals .
AMY GOODMAN : President Trump has said New Jersey ’ s first African American U.S. senator @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Biden destroy peaceful suburbs by bringing low-income housing and crime .
This is Trump speaking to Fox News Monday night .
JASON STANLEY : So , there ’ s no evidence at all that Cory Booker , a senator , an African American senator from New Jersey , is going to be running any such program .
He throws his name in .
He mentions women .
Why does he mention women ?
Well , this harkens back to what Langston Hughes called “ our native fascisms.
” This harkens back to the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ history of lynching .
Ida B .
Wells , in Southern Horrors , the great Ida B .
Wells , the great anti-lynching activist and intellectual and journalist , said , “ Look , racism and sexism go together.
” They ’ re treating white women as victims who need to be protected from marauding Black men by a strong leader , by — you know , by white militias , the KKK .
Trump is directly harkening back to that horrific time in American history , which is this sort of lynching @ @ @ @ @ @ @ century to mid-20th century .
This is something that Du Bois , in Black Reconstruction , calls fascism , so American fascism .
This is the aspect of America that influences Hitler , that influences the Jim Crow laws , the racial subordination .
Here , so I have a chapter in my book called “ Sexual Anxiety.
” You know , in Germany , the idea behind both Nazi Germany — Nazi German ideology and the Ku Klux Klan , often called the first fascist organization , was that Jews , Marxist @ @ @ @ @ @ @ race war to get Black Americans to — to get Blacks and immigrants to overthrow the white Christianity .
And the idea , you know , Hitler fomented this , as I document in my book .
It ’ s also the case that you had this propaganda , that overlaps between here and QAnon , that we need to protect our women and children from these predators , pedophile rings .
But this echoes the classic American , supposed and completely fictional Black male rapist fiction , fictional narrative , that underlay @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Cory Booker is a case in point .
Ida B .
Wells is , sadly , more relevant than ever .
AMY GOODMAN : During the Republican convention , speakers used apocalyptic language to describe the dangers of a Biden presidency .
This is Charlie Kirk , the founder of the right-wing student group Turning Point .
AMY GOODMAN : Charlie Kirk , the founder of the right-wing student group Turning Point .
Professor Stanley , respond to this and also people raising their eyebrows and saying , “ Oh , come on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ comparing this to ?
” JASON STANLEY : That speech is highly evocative of a speech that Goebbels , Joseph Goebbels , the Nazi propaganda minister , gave in 1935 called “ Communism with Its Mask Off.
” In Goebbels ’ speeches , including that speech , which I encourage people to look up , he regularly represents the threat as being a threat to Western civilization .
He says the Nazi Party is going to protect social conservatives , Christians from the Armageddon of communism , which seeks to destroy civilization as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in cahoots with the international underworld .
So , that ’ s that link between communism and crime and supposed lawless crime .
So you have the same idea here .
There ’ s Trump , on the one hand , protecting Christianity , protecting Western civilization , and anyone opposed to Trump is a lawless mob in cahoots with communists seeking to destroy civilization itself .
And this is the friend-enemy distinction that is so antithetical to democracy .
AMY GOODMAN : What about science ?
How does the denial of science @ @ @ @ @ @ @ doing , from pushing hydroxychloroquine , despite all the studies , to now , apparently , with warp speed , as the operation might well be accurately named , pushing a vaccine just in time for the election , when scientists all over this country are saying this is dangerous and is undermining people ’ s belief in science ?
JASON STANLEY : So , I had to get the preface for the paperback of my book in by March 14th , and it was very unclear which countries would do worst with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ program by listing the countries that have done worst : Brazil , the United States and India , and Russia , as well .
So , I listed those countries .
I predicted those countries would do worst , even though some said , “ What ?
They have strong — supposedly strong leaders.
” Well , I predicted they would be worst because these leaders reject science .
They reject science as , you know , the attitude — I ’ m not comparing here these leaders to Hitler .
Hitler did @ @ @ @ @ @ @ leaders lack .
But these are hypernationalist leaders that see the world in friend-enemy distinctions .
And as Hitler says in Mein Kampf , science is just a tool for national glory .
So , the only way such leaders are going to drag scientists up to the podium is if these scientists are yes men for the leaders , praise the leaders , because that ’ s all this kind of politics is : You ’ re either with us or against us .
And science , by its nature , facts @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have a side .
They do not pick a side .
So , science is incompatible with these leaders .
These leaders are going to pick scientists that just praise the leaders and tell the leaders what they want to hear .
And what we have underlying this is an ideology of social Darwinism : Well , let the weak and old die .
That is an ideology that is very clear in Bolsonaro in Brazil ’ s response to COVID-19 .
And finally , we have the weaponization of everything , like @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is no — there ’ s just us and them .
And as we ’ ve seen , the Trump administration backed off from really focusing on COVID-19 when they came to believe that it was largely a disease of essential workers — that is , largely Black and Hispanic Americans — and they believed it was relegated mostly to Democrat-run cities .
So , you know , this kind of thinking , there ’ s just friend and enemy .
And when there ’ s just friend and enemy , well , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ really just a tool of national glory .
AMY GOODMAN : Jason Stanley , I want to thank you for being with us , professor of philosophy at Yale University , author of five books , most recently , How Fascism Works : The Politics of Us and Them .
Next up , 50 years ago today , Salvador Allende was elected president of Chile .
We ’ ll speak with his former adviser , Ariel Dorfman , who at the time was dancing in the streets of Santiago .
Stay with us @

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The Quarantine Report. I’m Amy Goodman.
DELEGATES: Four more years! Four more years! Four more years! Four more years! Four more years! Four more years!
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Now, if you want to really drive them crazy, you say “12 more years.”
DELEGATES: Twelve more years! Twelve more years! Twelve more years!
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Because we caught them doing some really bad things in 2016. Let’s see what happens.
AMY GOODMAN: “Twelve more years.” That was how Donald Trump kicked off the Republican National Convention from North Carolina last week, where he flew for the roll call vote. The convention came amidst a nationwide uprising against police brutality, just days after the shooting of Jacob Blake in Kenosha, Wisconsin, and while people continued to demand justice for Breonna Taylor and George Floyd in the streets. But Vice President Mike Pence did not say their names when he addressed the RNC; instead, he focused on the killing of federal security officer David Patrick Underwood in Oakland, California.
VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: We will have law and order on the streets of this country for every American of every race and creed and color. … President Trump and I know that the men and women that put on the uniform of law enforcement are the best of us. Every day, when they walk out that door, they consider our lives more important than their own — people like Dave Patrick Underwood, an officer in the Department of Homeland Security’s Federal Protective Service, who was shot and killed during the riots in Oakland, California. Dave’s heroism is emblematic of the heroes that serve in blue every day. And we’re privileged tonight to be joined by his sister Angela. Angela, we say to you, we grieve with your family, and America will never forget or fail to honor officer Dave Patrick Underwood.
AMY GOODMAN: But Vice President Pence left out a key part of the story. The man charged with Underwood’s death was not a Black Lives Matter activist, but a man with ties to the far-right “boogaloo” movement, which has used protests against police brutality as a cover to carry out violence.
Pence did not mention Kyle Rittenhouse, the 17-year-old white vigilante who killed two protesters in the streets of Kenosha last week. On Monday, President Trump refused to condemn Rittenhouse, saying the gunman probably would have been killed had he not attacked the protesters.
This comes as Trump has openly embraced supporters of the far-right conspiracy theory QAnon, describing them as “people that love our country.” Last month, he refused to question the central plank of the conspiracy theory when questioned by a reporter.
REPORTER: At the crux of the theory is this belief that you are secretly saving the world from this satanic cult of pedophiles and cannibals. Does that sound like something you are behind?
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Well, I haven’t — I haven’t heard that, but is that supposed to be a bad thing or a good thing? I mean, you know, if I can help save the world from problems, I’m willing to do it.
AMY GOODMAN: Earlier this week, in an apparent reference to the QAnon conspiracy theory, Trump claimed Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden is being secretly controlled by people in the, quote, “dark shadows.” He made the comment during an interview with Laura Ingraham of Fox News.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I don’t even like to mention Biden, because he’s not controlling anything. They control him.
LAURA INGRAHAM: Who do you think is pulling Biden’s strings? Is it former Obama officials?
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: People that you’ve never heard of. People that are in the dark shadows. People that are —
LAURA INGRAHAM: What does that mean? That sounds like conspiracy theory: “dark shadows.” What is that?
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: No, people that you haven’t heard of. There are people that are on the streets. There are people that are controlling the streets. We had somebody get on a plane from a certain city this weekend, and in the plane, it was almost completely loaded with — with thugs wearing these dark uniforms, black uniforms, with gear and this and that. They’re on a plane.
LAURA INGRAHAM: Where was this?
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I’ll tell you sometime, but it’s under investigation.
AMY GOODMAN: President Trump provided no evidence to back up his claim about thugs on planes. He initially claimed the plane was headed to the Republican National Convention. On Tuesday, he told reporters the plane was going from Washington to, quote, “wherever.” NBC reports Trump’s claim is very similar to a conspiracy theory started in June by a man in Idaho that went viral within far-right circles on social media.
Well, to connect these dots, from the Republican National Convention to white supremacists in the streets of U.S. cities to the president’s embrace of fringe conspiracy theories, we’re joined now by Yale professor Jason Stanley. He’s a renowned philosopher and scholar of propaganda who wrote the book _How Fascism Works: The Politics of Us and Them). Professor Stanley is the child of refugees of World War II. He’s a professor of philosophy at Yale University, joining us from New Haven, Connecticut.
Welcome back to Democracy Now!, Professor Stanley. You were on when the book was first published two years ago, right in the middle of the Trump presidency. And now either we’re nearing its end or he will be reelected again. But talk about what you just listened to, and why you feel your book, How Fascism Works, is more relevant than ever.
JASON STANLEY: So, fascism is a cult of the leader who promises national restoration in the face of supposed threats by leftist radicals, minorities and immigrants. He promises only he can save us. In the RNC, what we saw is we saw a cult of the leader. The Republicans didn’t even bother to provide a platform. They just said, “Whatever Trump wants.” We saw four of the six long speeches given by Trumps.
So, Hannah Arendt, in Origins of Totalitarianism, warns that the first step towards authoritarianism is when a political party starts to value party over parties, meaning one political party treats other political parties not as legitimate opposition but as traitors to the country. The next step is when that political party, that engages in this kind of behavior, just becomes taken over by a social and political movement devoted to one leader. And that, I fear, is what we’re seeing.
When I published my book two years ago, people accused me of hysteria, of exaggeration, and they listed reasons why we shouldn’t be afraid of fascism in America, despite its deep roots in this country. And the reasons they’ve given, I’m afraid, have fallen to the wayside. They’ve given reasons like, you know, the institutions remain independent, the Justice Department remains independent. They’ve given reasons like there are no right-wing militias tacitly endorsed by the administration. So, Arendt calls our attention to the fact that the Nazi government refused to condemn the violence of right-wing — right-wing, far-right violent people on the streets attacking Jews. They refused to condemn them. They didn’t endorse them; they just refused to condemn them. And Arendt said that was giving them permission.
So, you know, we’ve seen four years of chaos here, and yet we’re being told that this is law and order. So, we’re seeing militias on the street endorsed by the president. We’re seeing the administration echo a conspiracy theory that looks, really, a great deal like The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which is the early 20th century conspiracy that Judeo-Bolsheviks were behind liberalism and controlled the media, controlled the cultural institutions, where bankers were in cahoots with media and the art world to bring about world communism. We saw that at the RNC. Senator Tim Scott talked about Manhattan elites and Hollywood moguls supposedly trying to bring socialism to the United States. This mixture of a wealthy elite and communists is reminiscent of some of the worst conspiracy theories of the 20th century. So I’m very concerned here.
We’re seeing — people said, “It’s not fascism, because they’re not attacking democracy.” Well, what are the attacks on the elections about, if not attacks on democracy? So, while I don’t think Trump himself has a vision, has some kind of grand vision, as the fascists of yore has, as Timothy Snyder has called it, this is “not-even fascism.” I think we’re seeing a structure emerge, with figures like Stephen Miller, with all the sort of white supremacist ideologues in this administration, that could bring about, definitely, a turn to authoritarianism. It’s definitely an attack on democracy that the RNC represented.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to go to — back to the Republican convention, to President Trump formally accepting the nomination before a crowd of about 1,500 people crowded onto the South Lawn of the White House. During his acceptance speech, Trump made no reference to the police shooting of Jacob Blake in Kenosha, Wisconsin, or the killing of the two protesters that had just happened in Kenosha by a 17-year-old white Trump-supporting vigilante.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: When there is police misconduct, the justice system must hold wrongdoers fully and completely accountable. And it will. But when we can never have a situation where things are going on, as they are today, we must never allow mob rule. We can never allow mob rule. In the strongest possible terms, the Republican Party condemns the rioting, looting, arson and violence we have seen in Democrat-run cities all, like Kenosha, Minneapolis, Portland, Chicago and New York and many others. Democrat-run. There is violence and danger in the streets of many Democrat-run cities throughout America.
AMY GOODMAN: So, Professor Stanley, as you have a white officer shooting at point-blank range seven times in the back Jacob Blake just days before, and then two Black Lives Matter activists shot dead in the streets of Kenosha by a Trump-supporting gunman, no mention of them, but talking about mob rule in the streets somewhere of cities that are run by Democrats.
JASON STANLEY: OK. So, there’s two chapters in my book — my book is a 10-part characterization of fascist tactics. There’s two parts in my — two chapters in my book that are deeply relevant for what is happening now: obviously, chapter seven, “Law and Order,” and chapter nine, “Sodom and Gomorrah.”
What is meant by “Sodom and Gomorrah”? Chapter two of Hitler’s book Mein Kampf is called “My Study and Struggles in Vienna,” and he talks about his time in Vienna, a city, the capital of Austria, filled with foreigners, dirty, diseased, all sorts of different languages, filled with immigrants, and then the hated minority group, which for him were Jews. So, what we see is a repetition of this tactic: an attack on cities. Hypocritical, of course — Trump is from Queens. But what Trump is doing is trying to represent cities as filled with foreigners, minorities and disease. Earlier, he described New York City as filled with — as disease-ridden. And I think yesterday or, I think, in the last 24 hours, he said he blamed the COVID deaths on New York City. So, the idea is an attack on — you know, cities are dens of iniquity and foreignness. Real Americans live in rural areas outside the cities. And the cities are where you have mobs out of control, immigrants. There’s sanctuary cities. This is a classic tactic of this kind of far-right fascist politics.
And then law and order. What’s meant by “law and order” here? Not when — you know, Kyle Rittenhouse is not a violation of law and order. Kyle Rittenhouse, who murdered two people, who killed two people, is — he’s a radicalized 17-year-old. He’s not a violation of law and order, because white Trump supporters are law-abiding by their nature. The Trump rally we saw in Portland, shooting paintballs, aggressive against the counterprotesters, that was law-abiding. They were peaceful protesters, because on this notion of law and order, young Black men are, in and of themselves, violators of law and order. Leftist protesters against Trump can be doing nothing but rioting and looting.
Now, any protest — almost any protest is going to have elements with bad apples that become violent. Look at the Hong Kong protests. The Hong Kong became much more violent than anything we’ve seen here. Nevertheless, the Republicans did not denounce the Hong Kong protests as riots. Do you know who denounced the Hong Kong protests as riots? The Chinese government. What we’re seeing here is our government behave like the Chinese government, representing largely peaceful protests, with some bad elements that grow violent and should be condemned, as riots. And that’s a counterinsurgency, authoritarian tactic.
“Law and order” here does not mean law and order. Does this feel like law and order? Do the last four years feel like law and order? That very speech that we witnessed at the RNC was a violation of law and order, because it was given from White House grounds in violation of the Hatch Act, so, you know — and proudly so, because this administration revels in its violation of law and order, because, in fascism, “law and order” means whatever the leader says, and “law-abiding” means whoever the leader is, and “lawless” means the men of the minority group and leftists and radicals, supposed leftist radicals.
AMY GOODMAN: President Trump has said New Jersey’s first African American U.S. senator, Cory Booker, will help Joe Biden destroy peaceful suburbs by bringing low-income housing and crime. This is Trump speaking to Fox News Monday night.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: You have this beautiful community in the suburbs, including women, right? Women. They want security. I ended where they build low-income housing project right in the middle of your neighborhood. I ended it. If Biden gets in, he already said it’s going to go at a much higher rate than ever before. And you know who’s going to be in charge of it? Cory Booker. That’s going to be nice. OK?
AMY GOODMAN: Cory Booker, the president says. Professor Stanley?
JASON STANLEY: So, there’s no evidence at all that Cory Booker, a senator, an African American senator from New Jersey, is going to be running any such program. He throws his name in.
He mentions women. Why does he mention women? Well, this harkens back to what Langston Hughes called “our native fascisms.” This harkens back to the worst moments in American history, the history of lynching. Ida B. Wells, in Southern Horrors, the great Ida B. Wells, the great anti-lynching activist and intellectual and journalist, said, “Look, racism and sexism go together.” They’re treating white women as victims who need to be protected from marauding Black men by a strong leader, by — you know, by white militias, the KKK.
Trump is directly harkening back to that horrific time in American history, which is this sort of lynching in the late 19th, early 20th century to mid-20th century. This is something that Du Bois, in Black Reconstruction, calls fascism, so American fascism. This is the aspect of America that influences Hitler, that influences the Jim Crow laws, the racial subordination.
Here, so I have a chapter in my book called “Sexual Anxiety.” You know, in Germany, the idea behind both Nazi Germany — Nazi German ideology and the Ku Klux Klan, often called the first fascist organization, was that Jews, Marxist Jews, were trying to promote a race war to get Black Americans to — to get Blacks and immigrants to overthrow the white Christianity. And the idea, you know, Hitler fomented this, as I document in my book. It’s also the case that you had this propaganda, that overlaps between here and QAnon, that we need to protect our women and children from these predators, pedophile rings.
But this echoes the classic American, supposed and completely fictional Black male rapist fiction, fictional narrative, that underlay lynching. And the random evocation of Cory Booker is a case in point. Ida B. Wells is, sadly, more relevant than ever.
AMY GOODMAN: During the Republican convention, speakers used apocalyptic language to describe the dangers of a Biden presidency. This is Charlie Kirk, the founder of the right-wing student group Turning Point.
CHARLIE KIRK: We may not have realized it at the time, but Trump is the bodyguard of Western civilization. Trump was elected to protect our families from the vengeful mob that seeks to destroy our way of life, our neighborhoods, schools, churches and values. President Trump was elected to defend the American way of life.
AMY GOODMAN: Charlie Kirk, the founder of the right-wing student group Turning Point. Professor Stanley, respond to this and also people raising their eyebrows and saying, “Oh, come on, Nazi Germany, you’re comparing this to?”
JASON STANLEY: That speech is highly evocative of a speech that Goebbels, Joseph Goebbels, the Nazi propaganda minister, gave in 1935 called “Communism with Its Mask Off.” In Goebbels’ speeches, including that speech, which I encourage people to look up, he regularly represents the threat as being a threat to Western civilization. He says the Nazi Party is going to protect social conservatives, Christians from the Armageddon of communism, which seeks to destroy civilization as such. Goebbels says the communists are in cahoots with the international underworld. So, that’s that link between communism and crime and supposed lawless crime.
So you have the same idea here. There’s Trump, on the one hand, protecting Christianity, protecting Western civilization, and anyone opposed to Trump is a lawless mob in cahoots with communists seeking to destroy civilization itself. And this is the friend-enemy distinction that is so antithetical to democracy.
AMY GOODMAN: What about science? How does the denial of science, all over, that Trump is doing, from pushing hydroxychloroquine, despite all the studies, to now, apparently, with warp speed, as the operation might well be accurately named, pushing a vaccine just in time for the election, when scientists all over this country are saying this is dangerous and is undermining people’s belief in science?
JASON STANLEY: So, I had to get the preface for the paperback of my book in by March 14th, and it was very unclear which countries would do worst with COVID. But you started off this program by listing the countries that have done worst: Brazil, the United States and India, and Russia, as well. So, I listed those countries. I predicted those countries would do worst, even though some said,
“What? They have strong — supposedly strong leaders.”
Well, I predicted they would be worst because these leaders reject science. They reject science as, you know, the attitude — I’m not comparing here these leaders to Hitler. Hitler did have a grand genocidal vision that these leaders lack. But these are hypernationalist leaders that see the world in friend-enemy distinctions. And as Hitler says in Mein Kampf, science is just a tool for national glory. So, the only way such leaders are going to drag scientists up to the podium is if these scientists are yes men for the leaders, praise the leaders, because that’s all this kind of politics is: You’re either with us or against us. And science, by its nature, facts, by their nature, do not have a side. They do not pick a side. So, science is incompatible with these leaders. These leaders are going to pick scientists that just praise the leaders and tell the leaders what they want to hear. And what we have underlying this is an ideology of social Darwinism: Well, let the weak and old die. That is an ideology that is very clear in Bolsonaro in Brazil’s response to COVID-19.
And finally, we have the weaponization of everything, like there is no America, or this is no — there’s just us and them. And as we’ve seen, the Trump administration backed off from really focusing on COVID-19 when they came to believe that it was largely a disease of essential workers — that is, largely Black and Hispanic Americans — and they believed it was relegated mostly to Democrat-run cities. So, you know, this kind of thinking, there’s just friend and enemy. And when there’s just friend and enemy, well, science has no role. It is really just a tool of national glory.
AMY GOODMAN: Jason Stanley, I want to thank you for being with us, professor of philosophy at Yale University, author of five books, most recently, How Fascism Works: The Politics of Us and Them.
Next up, 50 years ago today, Salvador Allende was elected president of Chile. We’ll speak with his former adviser, Ariel Dorfman, who at the time was dancing in the streets of Santiago. Stay with us.


democracynow--2020-09-04--Headlines for September  4, 2020

Headlines for September  4, 2020

U.S .
Marshals have shot dead an anti-fascist activist who was suspected of killing a member of a far-right group during a recent protest in Portland , Oregon .
Forty-eight-year-old Michael Reinoehl was shot dead in Lacey , Washington , near Olympia , just hours after an arrest warrant was issued for him .
Lieutenant Ray Brady of the Thurston County Sheriff ’ s Office said four officers fired shots during the raid .
Lt. Ray Brady : “ There was a confrontation between the officers that were on scene and the subject .
The information that we have at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ armed .
There was shots that were fired into the vehicle , and the subject fled from the vehicle , at which time there was additional shots that were fired.
” On Thursday , Vice News aired an exclusive interview with Michael Reinoehl , who appeared to admit to shooting Aaron Danielson , a member of the far-right Patriot Prayer group .
Michael Reinoehl : “ I felt that my life and other people around me ’ s lives were in danger , and I felt like I had no choice but to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ want to paint a picture of antifa having major involvement .
A lot of people don ’ t understand what antifa represents .
And if you just look at the basic definition of it , it ’ s just anti-fascist .
And I am 100 % anti-fascist .
I ’ m not a member of antifa .
I ’ m not a member of anything .
Honestly , I hate to say it , but I see a civil war right around the corner .
That shot felt like the beginning of a @ @ @

U.S. Marshals have shot dead an anti-fascist activist who was suspected of killing a member of a far-right group during a recent protest in Portland, Oregon. Forty-eight-year-old Michael Reinoehl was shot dead in Lacey, Washington, near Olympia, just hours after an arrest warrant was issued for him. Lieutenant Ray Brady of the Thurston County Sheriff’s Office said four officers fired shots during the raid.
Lt. Ray Brady: “There was a confrontation between the officers that were on scene and the subject. The information that we have at this time is that the subject was armed. There was shots that were fired into the vehicle, and the subject fled from the vehicle, at which time there was additional shots that were fired.”
On Thursday, Vice News aired an exclusive interview with Michael Reinoehl, who appeared to admit to shooting Aaron Danielson, a member of the far-right Patriot Prayer group.