democracynow--2020-02-04--Can Bernie Sanders Defeat Trump? Jacobin's Bhaskar Sunkara & The Atlantic's David Frum Debate

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
I ’ m Amy Goodman , with Juan González .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : Well , after a chaotic night in Iowa , the focus of the Democratic race has now shifted to New Hampshire .
Senator Bernie Sanders is leading in most New Hampshire polls a week ahead of the state ’ s primary .
While Sanders has been surging in popularity across the country , the Democratic Party establishment is openly expressing concern that the self-described @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Politico reports some members of the Democratic National Committee have privately discussed rewriting the party ’ s rules about superdelegates in an attempt to stop Sanders .
The Democratic National Committee has already overhauled requirements for the next debate to allow Mike Bloomberg , the billionaire former mayor of New York , to participate .
Up until now , the DNC required candidates to obtain a significant number of small donations , but Bloomberg is self-funding his campaign .
Bernie Sanders ’ senior adviser Jeff Weaver described the rule change as , quote @ @ @ @ @ @ @ system.
” AMY GOODMAN : While Bernie Sanders faces attacks from the corporate wing of the Democratic Party , many of his supporters say he is the candidate best suited to beat President Trump in November .
But Sanders ’ critics say it ’ s unrealistic to think a self-described socialist could win the general election and that it would be a mistake for the Democratic Party to nominate him .
To talk more about this , we ’ re joined by two guests .
David Frum is joining us , staff writer @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : The Corruption of the American Republic .
In 2001 and '02 , he served as a speechwriter for President George W. Bush , credited with coming up with the famous term “ axis of evil ” in the 2002 State of the Union address , referring to Iraq , Iran and North Korea , well known for years a supporter of the Iraq War .
Frum 's recent article is headlined “ Bernie Can ’ t Win.
” He ’ s joining us from Toronto , Canada .
Here in New York @ @ @ @ @ @ @ founding editor and publisher of Jacobin , the author of The Socialist Manifesto : The Case for Radical Politics in an Era of Extreme Inequality .
Sunkara ’ s recent piece in The Guardian is headlined “ Sanders is leading the pack in Iowa — and that ’ s good news for Democrats.
” Well , let ’ s start with you , Bhaskar , as you sit here in the New York studio .
Why do you feel Senator Sanders , who has looked like he may well have won the Iowa @ @ @ @ @ @ @ New Hampshire and is very prominent in major polls in the United States right now nationally , could win the election ?
BHASKAR SUNKARA : Well , I think we should remember that even though Bernie Sanders is an outsider and has a set of politics that ’ s pretty unique in American politics — you know , he ’ s a self-described democratic socialist , he ’ s been on the left for much of his political career , his entire political career — he ’ s not a unknown .
He @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s an outsider but not a stranger .
So he ’ s someone who has run consistently in statewide elections in Vermont and has outpaced Democratic presidential candidates in Vermont .
He ’ s someone who ’ s had a track record of success for 30 , 40 years .
And also , he ’ s someone who ’ s familiar with both voters of the Democratic Party and with independents and moderates .
So he ’ s had to deal with five years of sustained scrutiny , and he ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ storms .
So , I think that this idea that Sanders is this outsider or radical is something that both people like me on the left and also his opponents have pushed .
But the truth is , he ’ s not that scary , and he ’ s not that unusual , to a lot of people .
They know who Bernie is .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : David Frum , as a Republican opponent of Donald Trump , your advice to the Democrat Party is they ’ re crazy .
Talk about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ t use the word “ crazy , ” because I understand what they do and where they feel .
I come at this , as you say , from a conservative and Republican point of view .
I think Donald Trump is a tremendous danger to American institutions .
And those who feel as I do , and we ’ re not a decisive group , but we represent an important group : many of the people who voted Democrat in the 2018 elections to stop Donald Trump , to give Congress @ @ @ @ @ @ @ him .
From our point of view , this is a moment of tremendous danger , and it calls on all of us to make sacrifices of some of our preferences — it wasn ’ t easy for me to vote for Hillary Clinton in 2016 — for the common good .
I think one of the places I start with thinking about this is to remember , if you ask Americans the question , “ How are you feeling about your finances ?
How are you feeling about your healthcare ?
” @ @ @ @ @ @ @ responses of any year since 1998 .
While Bernie Sanders speaks to the disaffected , the people who are content with the status quo are stronger than they have been at any time since the late 1990s .
Donald Trump will be a tough president to beat .
And flipping the Senate and imposing some costs on the Republicans there for protecting Donald Trump , that ’ s going to be even more difficult .
If almost anybody else were the incoming president of the United States right now — Scott Walker , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ person would be cruising to an easy re-election .
So , in the face of the extraordinary difficulty of defeating a dangerous president at a time of prosperity , you have to choose very wisely .
And Bernie Sanders , appealing as he is to people who listen to this program , for example , has never fought a hard race .
And the fact that he ’ s outperformed the Democratic Party in Vermont is — congratulations , but Vermont is not America .
This election will be decided in places like @ @ @ @ @ @ @ decided maybe in places like Michigan , with a 15 % black population .
It ’ s going to be decided in places where most people are feeling better about the world than they felt in 2016 and are more pro-incumbent .
AMY GOODMAN : Is there a candidate you prefer , David ?
DAVID FRUM : Look , I ’ m not a Democrat .
It ’ s not my house , and I ’ m not going to rearrange the furniture .
And I think all the candidates have vulnerabilities .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ who is most vulnerable , because there ’ s something about his campaign .
They haven ’ t — because they ’ ve never taken a real hard punch in a campaign , they don ’ t seem to understand what Donald Trump is preparing for them .
And they don ’ t seem to have a strategy , for example , for winning the Senate , as well , which is going to be so important to putting a punishment on the Republican Party and a penalty for Donald Trump .
And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Sanders can be represented as wanting to take away healthcare from people , the existing plans from people , who are more likely to say , “ I ’ m happy with my healthcare , ” than at any time since the 1990s .
It ’ s not just his plans to rearrange stock ownership so people can feel , “ Hey , he ’ s taking away my stocks.
” It ’ s that he ’ s got a long history of association with causes that most Americans think are pretty radical @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , because his Democratic opponents have never challenged him on those issues .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : And , Bhaskar Sunkara , I wanted to ask you about this whole issue of the Senate and if — even if Bernie Sanders were to win the nomination and to win the presidency , he ’ d still have to deal with Congress to get most of his agenda done .
And there are some who say not only will there be a possibility the Democrats will not control the Senate , but that even the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Senate may not support — some of the Democrats may not support Bernie Sanders ’ s platform .
BHASKAR SUNKARA : Well , this is one of the dilemmas of our political system and the fact that we ’ re going to have divided government for much of our lives probably , and presidents are not going to be able to do a lot in most conditions .
I think the Obama — first couple years of the Obama administration was such a missed opportunity for that reason .
But through executive @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the presidency , Sanders will be able to do a lot .
And I think he has shown an ability to work with others that he doesn ’ t agree with .
Again , this framing of Sanders as this wild radical who can ’ t work within institutions belies the fact that he ’ s had a quite successful time in the Congress .
He has managed to be the chair of the Veteran Affairs Committee .
He has managed to deliver benefits for veterans and for their families , through working @ @ @ @ @ @ @ things like the public option and voted for Obamacare , even though he ’ s been a strong advocate for single payer during that period .
This isn ’ t a figure that ’ s a complete unknown .
And he ’ s very keen to play this up .
So , if you notice his interactions , say , with Joe Biden during the presidential debates , I ’ m sure they get along , maybe they ’ re friends , but I certainly never heard of them being friends before 2016 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ more likely that he ’ s showing Democratic Party voters and he ’ s showing the American people that he knows these people , he ’ s not an unknown , he ’ s known Joe Biden for decades , and so on .
So , again , I think that what Mr. Frum is missing is that 46 % of Americans are going to vote for their partisan affiliation regardless , whatever not .
The Democratic Party , in addition , that needs around , because the Electoral College , 5 to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to do well in states in the Upper Midwest and elsewhere .
No , actually , you ’ re right that Vermont is not representative of America , but neither is Ohio and Michigan and these other states .
And in some parts of Vermont , like the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont , which really resembles some of these Rust Belt areas , really resembles some of these rural parts of America , as well , Sanders has overperformed consistently .
He does well .
He ’ s a person who has a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ positive approval ratings for his pro-gun-control agenda from rural Vermont gun owners .
And I think that combination might lead him to be able to be competitive with independents and moderates in the Upper Midwest .
There are other pathways to victory .
He ’ s probably going to fare a bit more poorly with $ 100,000-plus families , middle-class families in Florida , for instance .
Maybe Florida is more in play with Biden .
I think there ’ s multiple pathways for different Democratic candidates , but I think Sanders has @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : Look , I would say there are — the Sanders message is he ’ s going to do a great job , he says , of mobilizing the last remains of the old , white industrial working class in the areas where the old , white industrial working class was strong .
Maybe that ’ s true , maybe that ’ s not true .
I personally doubt it , but maybe it ’ s true .
He might take a point or two away , possibly .
It ’ s imaginable @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the two most urgent jobs that a Democratic nominee for president has .
The first is to mobilize black American voters .
Black American turnout reached an all-time historic peak in 2012 , the only election in American history where black people were more likely to go to the polls than white people were .
Black turnout dropped considerably between 2012 and 2016 .
Michigan depends on getting black turnout more to where it was in 2012 .
North Carolina depends on black turnout .
And Bernie Sanders has had real trouble connecting @ @ @ @ @ @ @ — and , I say , politics is very hard .
The second job is hard to do at the same time as you do the first .
And that is to reassure the kind of women , the educated women , who are from many different ethnic backgrounds , in suburbs , who delivered the House to the Democrats in 2018 .
You know , people say about Republicans like me , the “ never ” Republicans , we ’ re a dinner party , not a political party .
But I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s former congressional district , that was Republican from '66 to 2018 , went Democrat in 2018 .
Newt Gingrich 's former congressional district went Democrat in 2018 .
Eric Cantor ’ s former district went Democrat in 2018 .
The district just south of the Potomac , that has been Republican for 60 of the past 66 years , one of the wealthiest districts in America , went Democrat in 2018 .
And that was all done by women candidates appealing to women voters .
Sanders is going to have real @ @ @ @ @ @ @ after Donald Trump represents Sanders ’ own personal history in the way that he is going to do .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : And when you say “ in the way that he is going to do , ” what ’ s your sense of what that attack will look like ?
Because you ’ ve said that the Sanders people have no idea what ’ s coming at them , if they become — if their candidate becomes the nominee .
DAVID FRUM : Look , Bernie Sanders was a creature in the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of sexual liberation .
And he wrote on that subject in ways that are very much not the style now .
And the Bernie Sanders operation has been a very male-dominated operation .
You saw Bernie Sanders 's apology to women after — in his operation after 2016 .
And especially Bernie Sanders has gotten himself at dagger ’ s point with Hillary Clinton .
There is a video clip of Hillary Clinton denouncing Bernie Sanders , not from 2016 , but from just a couple of weeks ago .
Donald Trump is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ over again .
By the time this election is over , you ’ re going to think Hillary Clinton is Donald Trump ’ s running mate .
And if you think that ’ s amoral and unprincipled , you don ’ t know Donald Trump .
He is absolutely capable of doing that .
I mean , he ’ s running an anti-nepotism campaign against Joe Biden — the most nepotistic administration in American history .
AMY GOODMAN : Republican Congressman Mark Meadows of North Carolina said , “ Bernie Sanders ’ followers @ @ @ @ @ @ @ than anybody else .
They have a passion and , in a way , they tap into what Donald Trump tapped into , but they do it on the left .
It ’ s an antiestablishment , 'we want to mix things up ' kind of environment .
… So if I had to pick one person I ’ m most concerned about , it would be Bernie Sanders , ” Mark Meadows said .
Let me put that to Bhaskar Sunkara .
BHASKAR SUNKARA : Well , I certainly agree , just @ @ @ @ @ @ @ turnout , it ’ s going to come down to enthusiasm .
And first of all , I would dispute some of those numbers about Sanders and black voters .
In fact , black voters tend to like — judging by polling , tend to like the Democratic field as a whole .
Older black voters are most familiar with Biden , so they ’ re going to vote for Biden , most likely .
Younger black voters are most familiar or most like Sanders , so they ’ re going to vote @ @ @ @ @ @ @ no doubt there ’ s going to be some turnout .
The problem with turnout in 2016 wasn ’ t black voters .
Black voter turnout dropped from historic highs in 2008 and 2012 , with support for the Barack Obama presidency and the historic nature of it , to more normal levels , what you would expect , whereas the problem was Latino turnout , a group that Sanders is particularly strong at , has actually spent a lot of effort , millions of dollars into bilingual outreach , even in states @ @ @ @ @ @ @ vote was only 5 , 6 % of the voter or less .
And I think this will translate very well .
And with the women question , I mean , I think it ’ s just absolutely absurd to think that Donald Trump , given his record , given his intense misogyny , would be able to credibly run a campaign accusing Bernie Sanders of sexism .
That , to me , was the weakest part of Mr. Frum ’ s piece in The Atlantic , and it just makes no sense @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ re going to break and then come back to this debate .
David , just one sec .
You can respond right on the other side of this break .
We ’ re speaking with David Frum , staff writer for The Atlantic , author of Trumpocracy : The Corruption of the American Republic , and Bhaskar Sunkara , founding editor and publisher of Jacobin .
He wrote The Socialist Manifesto : The Case for Radical Politics in an Era of Extreme Inequality .
Back with them in a minute .
AMY @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Hard ” by Iraqi Salima Murad .
This is Democracy Now !
, democracynow.org , The War and Peace Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman , with Juan González .
Our guests in this debate of whether Bernie Sanders can win is David Frum , staff writer with The Atlantic , author of Trumpocracy : The Corruption of the American Republic , and Bhaskar Sunkara , founding editor and publisher of Jacobin , author of The Socialist Manifesto : The Case for Radical Politics in an Era of Extreme Inequality .
JUAN @ @ @ @ @ @ @ break , you wanted to chime in , in response to — DAVID FRUM : So , when Mark Meadows and people like that , Hugh Hewitt on MSNBC , people who are in the Trump camp , say that Bernie Sanders is the candidate they fear most , I ’ m going to give you a couple possibilities .
One is they ’ re fooling with you , not true , that they are trying to — that they ’ re trying to build up somebody who they think is the most @ @ @ @ @ @ @ maybe the are fooling themselves and don ’ t understand how Donald Trump won in 2016 .
There ’ s a myth in the Donald Trump world that he rode this massive wave of disaffection , this tidal wave of enthusiasm , into the Oval Office with a big mandate for change .
And none of that is true .
Between 2000 and 2016 , there were five presidential elections .
Ten people ran for president .
Of those 10 , Donald Trump ran second worst in terms of the popular vote .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ Donald Trump between 2000 and 2016 was John McCain , who represented the incumbent party after a war that had gone badly and in the throes of the worst financial downturn since the 1930s .
And he lost to Donald Trump by only a fraction of a point .
Donald Trump got less than John Kerry , less than Al Gore and less than Mitt Romney .
So he was a very weak candidate .
He fluked into the White House because of the arrangement of the Electoral College , because of voter @ @ @ @ @ @ @ James Comey , help from the Russians .
Because Trump was so weak , he then came up with a story about how he won .
But it ’ s not the truth .
And maybe some of his supporters believe it , and maybe they don ’ t , but the advice they ’ re giving is really wrong .
The advice — the idea that you ’ re going to win a presidency in the face of — in a time of extraordinary prosperity by mobilizing people who are weakly attached @ @ @ @ @ @ @ offending the people who are regularly attached to the political process , that ’ s dangerous .
You know , when you look at black voters , black women vote more predictably than black men , and older black people vote more predictably than younger black people .
So , older black women , that ’ s the group you have to get to the polls first .
You worry about everybody , of course , but you focus first on the people most likely to show up .
The Sanders campaign represents @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they can bring to the polls a whole new type of voter .
And that ’ s generally in America not a good bet , and it ’ s especially not a good bet when times are pretty good .
AMY GOODMAN : I wanted to turn to a New York Times piece that talks about Bernie Sanders and communities of color around the United States .
It says , in a CNN survey , nonwhite voters were in fact more likely to say they would be enthusiastic or at least satisfied with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ % , than to say the same of Biden , 74 % .
Steve Phillips , the founder of Democracy in Color , an advocacy group focused on race and politics , said Mr. Sanders had room to grow with voters of color , whose votes are habitually taken for granted by Democratic candidates .
But Phillips emphasized he will need to earn it .
He said he ’ s closer to the mark than others are in terms of expanding the electorate and bringing new voters in .
He said , referring @ @ @ @ @ @ @ voters , a cornerstone of his campaign — he said , “ He could still do more.
” Bhaskar Sunkara , if you could respond to that and more ?
BHASKAR SUNKARA : Well , I would say that , unfortunately , people of color have been voting for even bad Democrats and will stay voting for bad Democrats , when the alternative is essentially white nationalism in the White House .
The real question is : Who are the irregular voters , the people who are maybe not first-time voters , but @ @ @ @ @ @ @ excited by a candidate ?
Who can we make outreach to ?
And I think this is where Sanders can really increase turnout around younger voters .
But I think we underestimate the extent to which Mr. Frum or myself could be the Democratic Party nominee , and we will get 45 , 46 % of the vote .
The question is : How do you get these other 5 % ?
And there ’ s many pathways to get this 5 % .
I think Sanders has one .
I think Joe @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
I ’ m not saying Sanders is the only candidate , but I am saying that he ’ s not uniquely unelectable .
And if anything , he has certain demographic examples , judging by his history .
And I think Americans are less hung up on these ideological facts of Sanders ’ description of himself as a democratic socialist , because he ’ s been able to successfully define it as just FDR , welfare state , Europe , and he ’ s been establishing this line for five years .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ put it out there and leave it be .
If anything , I would argue that certain Democrats , like Elizabeth Warren , might be more prone to redbaiting , if only because Trump will call just about anyone a socialist .
Trump called Barack Obama and Obamacare a socialist plot .
You know , he would do this for any Democratic candidate .
And if anything , I don ’ t think that the actual democratic socialist , who can define it in terms that doesn ’ t scare people , is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ compared to Democrats that might say , “ Yeah , I ’ m a capitalist , I ’ m not a socialist , ” and act very defensively .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : But , Bhaskar , you ’ ve also made the observation in some of your writings , in terms of Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders , that Sanders is more of a structuralist .
He seeks structural change , whereas Elizabeth Warren only seeks reforms in the existing inequities and abuses of the capitalist system .
But what about the structural @ @ @ @ @ @ @ potentially the first woman president , in the same way that Barack Obama , who was a centrist Democrat , for the most part , represented the aspirations , finally , of the African-American community to have full democracy in America and equal representation ?
What ’ s your sense of the issue of motivating more and more women to participate in the election , if she were the candidate ?
BHASKAR SUNKARA : Yeah , I mean , I think if Elizabeth Warren was the candidate , I certainly would support her @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I think that would be one tactic , one way to get to the White House , because I think we often , on the left , describe black and brown people and women as some sort of unified category that resists this minoritarian Republican Party , and we forget the fact that a slim polarity or majority of white women voted for Donald Trump in 2016 .
So , obviously there ’ s a lot of work to be done .
On the question of the structural change that Sanders offers , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that Sanders doesn ’ t even support some things I support , like court packing , for instance , which is kind of one of — supported by many Democratic candidates .
He doesn ’ t support even abolishing the filibuster .
So I think he ’ s been very careful to frame his arguments and to focus on his key issues .
I think that Medicare for All , jobs — there ’ s a certain repetition to Sanders , and that repetition , I think , will serve him well .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ re saying there should be a more centrist candidate , that you hate Trump and you want to see him beaten .
Well , haven ’ t the Democrats brought us a string of centrist candidates ?
You have Al Gore .
You have John Kerry .
You have Hillary Clinton .
They all lost .
DAVID FRUM : They all got a bigger share of the popular vote than Donald Trump did , so they were pretty successful candidates .
And one of the things that is a challenge for me @ @ @ @ @ @ @ times that most Democrats don ’ t see the world the way I do , but I think that ’ s also a challenge for Bernie Sanders voters .
Most Democrats , most Americans don ’ t see the the world the way you do .
And when you ’ re talking to them , you have to bear that in mind .
And let me give you one example that ’ s going to be important if Bernie Sanders is the nominee .
In 1980 , Bernie Sanders quit the fringe party @ @ @ @ @ @ @ join another one , the Socialist Workers Party .
Now , I don ’ t know why he joined .
At the time that he joined , the Socialist Worker Party ’ s main issue was opposing American military action to rescue the American hostages held in Iran .
In fact , they denounced the American hostages as CIA spies .
Now , Bernie Sanders didn ’ t do that .
But how is that going to look at a time when the United States and Iran are heading , apparently , toward @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that issue ?
You know , if it comes down , for me , to a choice between Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump , I will — I ’ ll make the gesture of protest .
I ’ ll vote for anybody , just about , certainly anybody who ’ s on the field .
But I understand that I ’ ll be making a gesture .
Meanwhile , there are millions of Americans for whom the choice is not Trump or Sanders , but show up or no show up .
And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ when you talk to them in meaningful ways , with a person who is relevant to them .
And you just always have to remember in politics , most people are different from you , and what moves you is not necessarily what moves your fellow citizens .
BHASKAR SUNKARA : Well , first of all , that ’ s just patently untrue .
Sanders was never a member of the Socialist Workers Party .
He was a member of the Liberty Union Party .
And in the early '60s , he was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ America , the party of Debs and Thomas , a party with deep , very American roots .
I think maybe what 's being distorted here and what ’ s being referenced is the fact that Sanders served as an elector for different minor-party candidates in the state of Vermont to allow them to get on the ballot .
And he offered that to different parties , and it was more a statement of democracy that I think we should all applaud , even if it opened him to this kind of attack @ @ @ @ @ @ @ question of Sanders being portrayed as being anti-American , I think if you actually look at what the American people think about foreign wars , about the blood and treasure that ’ s been spent on these endless foreign wars , I think you ’ ll find that Sanders is in the American mainstream , far more than the D.C. policy establishment is .
AMY GOODMAN : Well , we ’ re going to have to leave it there , but I thank you both for being with us , David Frum , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of Trumpocracy : The Corruption of the American Republic , and Bhaskar Sunkara , founding editor and publisher of Jacobin , author of The Socialist Manifesto : The Case for Radical Politics in an Era of Extreme Inequality .
Tomorrow , we hope to be bringing you the results of the Iowa caucus , but it ’ s not clear what will be happening .
Democracy Now !
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Learn more and apply at democracynow.org .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now! I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan González.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, after a chaotic night in Iowa, the focus of the Democratic race has now shifted to New Hampshire. Senator Bernie Sanders is leading in most New Hampshire polls a week ahead of the state’s primary. While Sanders has been surging in popularity across the country, the Democratic Party establishment is openly expressing concern that the self-described democratic socialist could win the nomination. Politico reports some members of the Democratic National Committee have privately discussed rewriting the party’s rules about superdelegates in an attempt to stop Sanders. The Democratic National Committee has already overhauled requirements for the next debate to allow Mike Bloomberg, the billionaire former mayor of New York, to participate. Up until now, the DNC required candidates to obtain a significant number of small donations, but Bloomberg is self-funding his campaign. Bernie Sanders’ senior adviser Jeff Weaver described the rule change as, quote, “the definition of a rigged system.”
AMY GOODMAN: While Bernie Sanders faces attacks from the corporate wing of the Democratic Party, many of his supporters say he is the candidate best suited to beat President Trump in November. But Sanders’ critics say it’s unrealistic to think a self-described socialist could win the general election and that it would be a mistake for the Democratic Party to nominate him.
To talk more about this, we’re joined by two guests. David Frum is joining us, staff writer for The Atlantic, author of Trumpocracy: The Corruption of the American Republic. In 2001 and '02, he served as a speechwriter for President George W. Bush, credited with coming up with the famous term “axis of evil” in the 2002 State of the Union address, referring to Iraq, Iran and North Korea, well known for years a supporter of the Iraq War. Frum's recent article is headlined “Bernie Can’t Win.” He’s joining us from Toronto, Canada.
Here in New York, Bhaskar Sunkara is with us, founding editor and publisher of Jacobin, the author of The Socialist Manifesto: The Case for Radical Politics in an Era of Extreme Inequality. Sunkara’s recent piece in The Guardian is headlined “Sanders is leading the pack in Iowa — and that’s good news for Democrats.”
Well, let’s start with you, Bhaskar, as you sit here in the New York studio. Why do you feel Senator Sanders, who has looked like he may well have won the Iowa caucus and could go on to win New Hampshire and is very prominent in major polls in the United States right now nationally, could win the election?
BHASKAR SUNKARA: Well, I think we should remember that even though Bernie Sanders is an outsider and has a set of politics that’s pretty unique in American politics — you know, he’s a self-described democratic socialist, he’s been on the left for much of his political career, his entire political career — he’s not a unknown. He’s not a stranger. He’s an outsider but not a stranger. So he’s someone who has run consistently in statewide elections in Vermont and has outpaced Democratic presidential candidates in Vermont. He’s someone who’s had a track record of success for 30, 40 years. And also, he’s someone who’s familiar with both voters of the Democratic Party and with independents and moderates. So he’s had to deal with five years of sustained scrutiny, and he’s been able to weather all sorts of storms. So, I think that this idea that Sanders is this outsider or radical is something that both people like me on the left and also his opponents have pushed. But the truth is, he’s not that scary, and he’s not that unusual, to a lot of people. They know who Bernie is.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: David Frum, as a Republican opponent of Donald Trump, your advice to the Democrat Party is they’re crazy. Talk about that.
DAVID FRUM: I don’t use the word “crazy,” because I understand what they do and where they feel. I come at this, as you say, from a conservative and Republican point of view. I think Donald Trump is a tremendous danger to American institutions. And those who feel as I do, and we’re not a decisive group, but we represent an important group: many of the people who voted Democrat in the 2018 elections to stop Donald Trump, to give Congress a House of Representatives that could check him. From our point of view, this is a moment of tremendous danger, and it calls on all of us to make sacrifices of some of our preferences — it wasn’t easy for me to vote for Hillary Clinton in 2016 — for the common good.
I think one of the places I start with thinking about this is to remember, if you ask Americans the question, “How are you feeling about your finances? How are you feeling about your healthcare?” you get in 2020 the most positive responses of any year since 1998. While Bernie Sanders speaks to the disaffected, the people who are content with the status quo are stronger than they have been at any time since the late 1990s. Donald Trump will be a tough president to beat. And flipping the Senate and imposing some costs on the Republicans there for protecting Donald Trump, that’s going to be even more difficult. If almost anybody else were the incoming president of the United States right now — Scott Walker, Jeb Bush, Hillary Clinton — that person would be cruising to an easy re-election. So, in the face of the extraordinary difficulty of defeating a dangerous president at a time of prosperity, you have to choose very wisely. And Bernie Sanders, appealing as he is to people who listen to this program, for example, has never fought a hard race. And the fact that he’s outperformed the Democratic Party in Vermont is — congratulations, but Vermont is not America. This election will be decided in places like North Carolina. It’ll be decided maybe in places like Michigan, with a 15% black population. It’s going to be decided in places where most people are feeling better about the world than they felt in 2016 and are more pro-incumbent.
AMY GOODMAN: Is there a candidate you prefer, David?
DAVID FRUM: Look, I’m not a Democrat. It’s not my house, and I’m not going to rearrange the furniture. And I think all the candidates have vulnerabilities. But Sanders seems to me the one who is most vulnerable, because there’s something about his campaign. They haven’t — because they’ve never taken a real hard punch in a campaign, they don’t seem to understand what Donald Trump is preparing for them. And they don’t seem to have a strategy, for example, for winning the Senate, as well, which is going to be so important to putting a punishment on the Republican Party and a penalty for Donald Trump.
And it’s not just that Bernie Sanders can be represented as wanting to take away healthcare from people, the existing plans from people, who are more likely to say, “I’m happy with my healthcare,” than at any time since the 1990s. It’s not just his plans to rearrange stock ownership so people can feel, “Hey, he’s taking away my stocks.” It’s that he’s got a long history of association with causes that most Americans think are pretty radical and that they have never heard about, because his Democratic opponents have never challenged him on those issues.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Bhaskar Sunkara, I wanted to ask you about this whole issue of the Senate and if — even if Bernie Sanders were to win the nomination and to win the presidency, he’d still have to deal with Congress to get most of his agenda done. And there are some who say not only will there be a possibility the Democrats will not control the Senate, but that even the Democrats in the House majority and in the Senate may not support — some of the Democrats may not support Bernie Sanders’s platform.
BHASKAR SUNKARA: Well, this is one of the dilemmas of our political system and the fact that we’re going to have divided government for much of our lives probably, and presidents are not going to be able to do a lot in most conditions. I think the Obama — first couple years of the Obama administration was such a missed opportunity for that reason. But through executive order and through the bully pulpit of the presidency, Sanders will be able to do a lot.
And I think he has shown an ability to work with others that he doesn’t agree with. Again, this framing of Sanders as this wild radical who can’t work within institutions belies the fact that he’s had a quite successful time in the Congress. He has managed to be the chair of the Veteran Affairs Committee. He has managed to deliver benefits for veterans and for their families, through working with the Republicans even. He supported things like the public option and voted for Obamacare, even though he’s been a strong advocate for single payer during that period. This isn’t a figure that’s a complete unknown. And he’s very keen to play this up. So, if you notice his interactions, say, with Joe Biden during the presidential debates, I’m sure they get along, maybe they’re friends, but I certainly never heard of them being friends before 2016. I think it’s much more likely that he’s showing Democratic Party voters and he’s showing the American people that he knows these people, he’s not an unknown, he’s known Joe Biden for decades, and so on.
So, again, I think that what Mr. Frum is missing is that 46% of Americans are going to vote for their partisan affiliation regardless, whatever not. The Democratic Party, in addition, that needs around, because the Electoral College, 5 to 6%. Particularly, they need to do well in states in the Upper Midwest and elsewhere. No, actually, you’re right that Vermont is not representative of America, but neither is Ohio and Michigan and these other states. And in some parts of Vermont, like the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont, which really resembles some of these Rust Belt areas, really resembles some of these rural parts of America, as well, Sanders has overperformed consistently. He does well. He’s a person who has a D-minus rating from the NRA but has positive approval ratings for his pro-gun-control agenda from rural Vermont gun owners. And I think that combination might lead him to be able to be competitive with independents and moderates in the Upper Midwest. There are other pathways to victory. He’s probably going to fare a bit more poorly with $100,000-plus families, middle-class families in Florida, for instance. Maybe Florida is more in play with Biden. I think there’s multiple pathways for different Democratic candidates, but I think Sanders has a very clear one.
AMY GOODMAN: David Frum, your response?
DAVID FRUM: Look, I would say there are — the Sanders message is he’s going to do a great job, he says, of mobilizing the last remains of the old, white industrial working class in the areas where the old, white industrial working class was strong. Maybe that’s true, maybe that’s not true. I personally doubt it, but maybe it’s true. He might take a point or two away, possibly. It’s imaginable.
Meanwhile, he will fail at the two most urgent jobs that a Democratic nominee for president has. The first is to mobilize black American voters. Black American turnout reached an all-time historic peak in 2012, the only election in American history where black people were more likely to go to the polls than white people were. Black turnout dropped considerably between 2012 and 2016. Michigan depends on getting black turnout more to where it was in 2012. North Carolina depends on black turnout. And Bernie Sanders has had real trouble connecting with black voters.
The second job — and, I say, politics is very hard. The second job is hard to do at the same time as you do the first. And that is to reassure the kind of women, the educated women, who are from many different ethnic backgrounds, in suburbs, who delivered the House to the Democrats in 2018. You know, people say about Republicans like me, the “never” Republicans, we’re a dinner party, not a political party. But I point out, George H.W. Bush’s former congressional district, that was Republican from '66 to 2018, went Democrat in 2018. Newt Gingrich's former congressional district went Democrat in 2018. Eric Cantor’s former district went Democrat in 2018. The district just south of the Potomac, that has been Republican for 60 of the past 66 years, one of the wealthiest districts in America, went Democrat in 2018. And that was all done by women candidates appealing to women voters. Sanders is going to have real trouble connecting with those women, especially after Donald Trump represents Sanders’ own personal history in the way that he is going to do.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And when you say “in the way that he is going to do,” what’s your sense of what that attack will look like? Because you’ve said that the Sanders people have no idea what’s coming at them, if they become — if their candidate becomes the nominee.
DAVID FRUM: Look, Bernie Sanders was a creature in the '60s and ’70s, a time of sexual liberation. And he wrote on that subject in ways that are very much not the style now. And the Bernie Sanders operation has been a very male-dominated operation. You saw Bernie Sanders's apology to women after — in his operation after 2016. And especially Bernie Sanders has gotten himself at dagger’s point with Hillary Clinton. There is a video clip of Hillary Clinton denouncing Bernie Sanders, not from 2016, but from just a couple of weeks ago. Donald Trump is going to play that clip over and over again. By the time this election is over, you’re going to think Hillary Clinton is Donald Trump’s running mate. And if you think that’s amoral and unprincipled, you don’t know Donald Trump. He is absolutely capable of doing that. I mean, he’s running an anti-nepotism campaign against Joe Biden — the most nepotistic administration in American history.
AMY GOODMAN: Republican Congressman Mark Meadows of North Carolina said, “Bernie Sanders’ followers are more of a concern to me than anybody else. They have a passion and, in a way, they tap into what Donald Trump tapped into, but they do it on the left. It’s an antiestablishment, 'we want to mix things up' kind of environment. … So if I had to pick one person I’m most concerned about, it would be Bernie Sanders,” Mark Meadows said. Let me put that to Bhaskar Sunkara.
BHASKAR SUNKARA: Well, I certainly agree, just because if the race comes out to turnout, it’s going to come down to enthusiasm. And first of all, I would dispute some of those numbers about Sanders and black voters. In fact, black voters tend to like — judging by polling, tend to like the Democratic field as a whole. Older black voters are most familiar with Biden, so they’re going to vote for Biden, most likely. Younger black voters are most familiar or most like Sanders, so they’re going to vote for Sanders. But there’s no doubt there’s going to be some turnout. The problem with turnout in 2016 wasn’t black voters. Black voter turnout dropped from historic highs in 2008 and 2012, with support for the Barack Obama presidency and the historic nature of it, to more normal levels, what you would expect, whereas the problem was Latino turnout, a group that Sanders is particularly strong at, has actually spent a lot of effort, millions of dollars into bilingual outreach, even in states like Iowa, in which the Latino vote was only 5, 6% of the voter or less. And I think this will translate very well.
And with the women question, I mean, I think it’s just absolutely absurd to think that Donald Trump, given his record, given his intense misogyny, would be able to credibly run a campaign accusing Bernie Sanders of sexism. That, to me, was the weakest part of Mr. Frum’s piece in The Atlantic, and it just makes no sense to me.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to break and then come back to this debate. David, just one sec. You can respond right on the other side of this break. We’re speaking with David Frum, staff writer for The Atlantic, author of Trumpocracy: The Corruption of the American Republic, and Bhaskar Sunkara, founding editor and publisher of Jacobin. He wrote The Socialist Manifesto: The Case for Radical Politics in an Era of Extreme Inequality. Back with them in a minute.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: “Your Heart Is Rock Hard” by Iraqi Salima Murad. This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan González. Our guests in this debate of whether Bernie Sanders can win is David Frum, staff writer with The Atlantic, author of Trumpocracy: The Corruption of the American Republic, and Bhaskar Sunkara, founding editor and publisher of Jacobin, author of The Socialist Manifesto: The Case for Radical Politics in an Era of Extreme Inequality.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: David Frum, before the break, you wanted to chime in, in response to —
DAVID FRUM: Yeah.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: — our guest’s statement. Go ahead.
DAVID FRUM: So, when Mark Meadows and people like that, Hugh Hewitt on MSNBC, people who are in the Trump camp, say that Bernie Sanders is the candidate they fear most, I’m going to give you a couple possibilities. One is they’re fooling with you, not true, that they are trying to — that they’re trying to build up somebody who they think is the most vulnerable. But the second possibility is maybe the are fooling themselves and don’t understand how Donald Trump won in 2016.
There’s a myth in the Donald Trump world that he rode this massive wave of disaffection, this tidal wave of enthusiasm, into the Oval Office with a big mandate for change. And none of that is true. Between 2000 and 2016, there were five presidential elections. Ten people ran for president. Of those 10, Donald Trump ran second worst in terms of the popular vote. The only person to do worse than Donald Trump between 2000 and 2016 was John McCain, who represented the incumbent party after a war that had gone badly and in the throes of the worst financial downturn since the 1930s. And he lost to Donald Trump by only a fraction of a point. Donald Trump got less than John Kerry, less than Al Gore and less than Mitt Romney. So he was a very weak candidate. He fluked into the White House because of the arrangement of the Electoral College, because of voter suppression of black voters, help from James Comey, help from the Russians. Because Trump was so weak, he then came up with a story about how he won. But it’s not the truth. And maybe some of his supporters believe it, and maybe they don’t, but the advice they’re giving is really wrong.
The advice — the idea that you’re going to win a presidency in the face of — in a time of extraordinary prosperity by mobilizing people who are weakly attached to the political process and kind of offending the people who are regularly attached to the political process, that’s dangerous. You know, when you look at black voters, black women vote more predictably than black men, and older black people vote more predictably than younger black people. So, older black women, that’s the group you have to get to the polls first. You worry about everybody, of course, but you focus first on the people most likely to show up. The Sanders campaign represents a giant bet on the proposition that they can bring to the polls a whole new type of voter. And that’s generally in America not a good bet, and it’s especially not a good bet when times are pretty good.
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to turn to a New York Times piece that talks about Bernie Sanders and communities of color around the United States. It says, in a CNN survey, nonwhite voters were in fact more likely to say they would be enthusiastic or at least satisfied with Mr. Sanders as their nominee, 82%, than to say the same of Biden, 74%. Steve Phillips, the founder of Democracy in Color, an advocacy group focused on race and politics, said Mr. Sanders had room to grow with voters of color, whose votes are habitually taken for granted by Democratic candidates. But Phillips emphasized he will need to earn it. He said he’s closer to the mark than others are in terms of expanding the electorate and bringing new voters in. He said, referring to Sanders’ efforts to engage first-time voters, a cornerstone of his campaign — he said, “He could still do more.” Bhaskar Sunkara, if you could respond to that and more?
BHASKAR SUNKARA: Well, I would say that, unfortunately, people of color have been voting for even bad Democrats and will stay voting for bad Democrats, when the alternative is essentially white nationalism in the White House. The real question is: Who are the irregular voters, the people who are maybe not first-time voters, but rarely come out and need to be excited by a candidate? Who can we make outreach to? And I think this is where Sanders can really increase turnout around younger voters.
But I think we underestimate the extent to which Mr. Frum or myself could be the Democratic Party nominee, and we will get 45, 46% of the vote. The question is: How do you get these other 5%? And there’s many pathways to get this 5%. I think Sanders has one. I think Joe Biden probably has one, as well. I’m not saying Sanders is the only candidate, but I am saying that he’s not uniquely unelectable. And if anything, he has certain demographic examples, judging by his history.
And I think Americans are less hung up on these ideological facts of Sanders’ description of himself as a democratic socialist, because he’s been able to successfully define it as just FDR, welfare state, Europe, and he’s been establishing this line for five years. He’s known how to just put it out there and leave it be. If anything, I would argue that certain Democrats, like Elizabeth Warren, might be more prone to redbaiting, if only because Trump will call just about anyone a socialist. Trump called Barack Obama and Obamacare a socialist plot. You know, he would do this for any Democratic candidate. And if anything, I don’t think that the actual democratic socialist, who can define it in terms that doesn’t scare people, is worse off at fending off this attack compared to Democrats that might say, “Yeah, I’m a capitalist, I’m not a socialist,” and act very defensively.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: But, Bhaskar, you’ve also made the observation in some of your writings, in terms of Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders, that Sanders is more of a structuralist. He seeks structural change, whereas Elizabeth Warren only seeks reforms in the existing inequities and abuses of the capitalist system. But what about the structural question that Elizabeth Warren represents of being potentially the first woman president, in the same way that Barack Obama, who was a centrist Democrat, for the most part, represented the aspirations, finally, of the African-American community to have full democracy in America and equal representation? What’s your sense of the issue of motivating more and more women to participate in the election, if she were the candidate?
BHASKAR SUNKARA: Yeah, I mean, I think if Elizabeth Warren was the candidate, I certainly would support her and would vote for her, and I think that would be one tactic, one way to get to the White House, because I think we often, on the left, describe black and brown people and women as some sort of unified category that resists this minoritarian Republican Party, and we forget the fact that a slim polarity or majority of white women voted for Donald Trump in 2016. So, obviously there’s a lot of work to be done.
On the question of the structural change that Sanders offers, I think it’s worth noting that Sanders doesn’t even support some things I support, like court packing, for instance, which is kind of one of — supported by many Democratic candidates. He doesn’t support even abolishing the filibuster. So I think he’s been very careful to frame his arguments and to focus on his key issues. I think that Medicare for All, jobs — there’s a certain repetition to Sanders, and that repetition, I think, will serve him well.
AMY GOODMAN: David Frum, you’re saying there should be a more centrist candidate, that you hate Trump and you want to see him beaten. Well, haven’t the Democrats brought us a string of centrist candidates? You have Al Gore. You have John Kerry. You have Hillary Clinton. They all lost.
DAVID FRUM: They all got a bigger share of the popular vote than Donald Trump did, so they were pretty successful candidates.
And one of the things that is a challenge for me is I need to remember at all times that most Democrats don’t see the world the way I do, but I think that’s also a challenge for Bernie Sanders voters. Most Democrats, most Americans don’t see the the world the way you do. And when you’re talking to them, you have to bear that in mind. And let me give you one example that’s going to be important if Bernie Sanders is the nominee. In 1980, Bernie Sanders quit the fringe party that he then belonged to, to join another one, the Socialist Workers Party. Now, I don’t know why he joined. At the time that he joined, the Socialist Worker Party’s main issue was opposing American military action to rescue the American hostages held in Iran. In fact, they denounced the American hostages as CIA spies. Now, Bernie Sanders didn’t do that. But how is that going to look at a time when the United States and Iran are heading, apparently, toward greater confrontation, when President Trump uses that issue?
You know, if it comes down, for me, to a choice between Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump, I will — I’ll make the gesture of protest. I’ll vote for anybody, just about, certainly anybody who’s on the field. But I understand that I’ll be making a gesture. Meanwhile, there are millions of Americans for whom the choice is not Trump or Sanders, but show up or no show up. And you only get them to show up when you talk to them in meaningful ways, with a person who is relevant to them. And you just always have to remember in politics, most people are different from you, and what moves you is not necessarily what moves your fellow citizens.
AMY GOODMAN: Bhaskar?
BHASKAR SUNKARA: Well, first of all, that’s just patently untrue. Sanders was never a member of the Socialist Workers Party. He was a member of the Liberty Union Party. And in the early '60s, he was a member of the Socialist Party of America, the party of Debs and Thomas, a party with deep, very American roots. I think maybe what's being distorted here and what’s being referenced is the fact that Sanders served as an elector for different minor-party candidates in the state of Vermont to allow them to get on the ballot. And he offered that to different parties, and it was more a statement of democracy that I think we should all applaud, even if it opened him to this kind of attack. And also, just on the question of Sanders being portrayed as being anti-American, I think if you actually look at what the American people think about foreign wars, about the blood and treasure that’s been spent on these endless foreign wars, I think you’ll find that Sanders is in the American mainstream, far more than the D.C. policy establishment is.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, we’re going to have to leave it there, but I thank you both for being with us, David Frum, staff writer with The Atlantic, author of Trumpocracy: The Corruption of the American Republic, and Bhaskar Sunkara, founding editor and publisher of Jacobin, author of The Socialist Manifesto: The Case for Radical Politics in an Era of Extreme Inequality.
Tomorrow, we hope to be bringing you the results of the Iowa caucus, but it’s not clear what will be happening.
Democracy Now! is accepting applications for a paid, year-long news production fellowship here in New York. Learn more and apply at democracynow.org.


democracynow--2020-02-04--Chaos in Iowa: Caucus Results Delayed, But Bernie Sanders' Internal Data Shows He May Have Won

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : Chaos in Iowa .
The Iowa Democratic Party has delayed releasing results from Monday ’ s caucus after uncovering inconsistencies in the reporting of data .
Caucuses were held in 1,600 precincts across the state on Monday , but many precincts had trouble reporting the delegate totals to the state Democratic Party .
Part of the blame was placed on a new smartphone app which was designed to help precinct chairs tabulate and report the vote .
The app was built by @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is connected to veterans of Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama ’ s presidential campaigns .
AMY GOODMAN : Early this morning , the campaign of Bernie Sanders released internal caucus numbers from 40 % of the precincts in Iowa showing the Vermont senator is in first place with nearly 30 % of the final count vote .
According to the data released by the Sanders campaign , former South Bend Mayor Pete Buttigieg placed second with about 24.5 % of the vote , followed by Senator Elizabeth Warren with 21 % .
Former @ @ @ @ @ @ @ fourth with 12 % , just slightly beating Senator Amy Klobuchar .
Before flying to New Hampshire , Senator Sanders addressed supporters in Iowa .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : Former South Bend Mayor Pete Buttigieg claimed victory in Iowa , even though no official results had been released .
AMY GOODMAN : Senator Elizabeth Warren also addressed supporters in Iowa in a late-night speech .
AMY GOODMAN : We ’ re joined right now by John Nichols of The Nation magazine , its national affairs correspondent and host of the podcast Next Left .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ ground in Iowa , just wrote the piece “ How to Figure Out Who 'Won ' the Iowa Caucuses.
” He was in Dubuque , Iowa , covering the caucus last night and joins us now from Madison , Wisconsin .
Welcome back to Democracy Now !
, John .
Well , can you explain what happened last night — the chaos , the confusion , the breakdown of the counting system ?
JOHN NICHOLS : Well , I can try , although it ’ s a mess that ’ s going to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and will impact , I think , the future of the Iowa caucuses .
I ’ ll start at the bottom .
I went to a caucus last night in Dubuque , in Precinct 9A .
And as in cases across the state , in 1,600 precincts , grassroots volunteers ran the caucus very , very well .
It was complicated .
They have a lot of complicated rules .
But in about an hour and a half , they had everything done , dealing with more than 200 people that showed up @ @ @ @ @ @ @ happened all over the state .
And so , it looked like a night that was working .
And then , as the chairs of these caucuses tried to communicate the results to the state party , everything fell apart .
Now , there was an app , which you mentioned in the intro , that had been distributed to the chairs , the people who run these caucuses .
And again , these are volunteers .
And they had trouble getting — apparently , getting into it .
They had trouble using @ @ @ @ @ @ @ concerns .
And we can detail them more , if you like , in a moment .
But the interesting thing is that then they were told there ’ s a hotline you can call if the app doesn ’ t work .
And so all of these chairs around the state started calling the hotline .
And there were reports that people were on — waiting on hold on the hotline for an hour , even two hours .
And sometimes when they finally got through , it hung up .
And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ t working .
And for a long time , there were no results .
And so , thousands of people at all these campaign rallies and events at the end of the night , the senators , the former vice president , everybody waiting for results , and then people all over the country , all over the world , waiting for results .
And there was not clarity .
And then the party says , “ Well , we ’ ve got some quality control problems.
” Now , that sends up @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , “ Well , there ’ s inconsistencies.
” And then , in a series of statements , they try to defend it and say , “ Well , ultimately , we ’ re going to get this right.
” And they may .
But it was just a fiasco , by any measure .
And you ended up in a situation where three candidates , or at least several candidates , essentially , claimed victory and where you have this situation with the Sanders camp releasing partial results .
But the truth @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do think it looks like Bernie Sanders had a very good night , we don ’ t know , even now , the next morning , and it ’ s created — I can ’ t even begin to describe the frustration on the part not just of campaigns and people around the country , but of Iowans , who themselves devoted tremendous amounts of energy to making these caucuses work at the grassroots .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : And , John , what is most surprising , as you mentioned , is that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ had trouble reporting , there must have been a good number of precincts that actually got their results in and for which there may not —there were probably not any questions .
But the fact that they ’ re not releasing any results , it makes me think back to when Mexico several years ago in a presidential election stopped the vote counting , and then , the next day , somebody else had won .
This whole issue of not releasing any results is especially problematic , but I think — I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on that .
But also , there seems to be little doubt that the big news of the night is that Joe Biden did not have anywhere near the support that most of the polls were indicating beforehand that he had .
Even though his numbers were already slipping , it looks like it ’ s even worse than that .
JOHN NICHOLS : Yeah .
You ’ ve asked two important — or , raised two important issues here , so let me try and address them both .
The first thing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the results , that ’ s complicated .
And when you have a little bit in and if you do actually see inconsistencies , you want to be a little careful with that .
But one of the problems in Iowa is , this is the third cycle in a row that they ’ ve had kind of big problems and some controversies about how things were handled .
In 2012 , there were initial reports that , I believe , Romney won the Republican caucuses , and it turned out it was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the boost , the bump , of having been declared the winner .
In 2016 , there was an incredibly close result , and they didn ’ t release the raw totals of how people who showed up for the caucuses lined up on the Democratic side .
That caused a lot of concern and controversy .
And now you have this .
And so , the Iowa Democratic Party should have practiced maximum transparency from the first moment and done its very best to get information out about the problem and , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to get that out , as well .
So that ’ s the answer to one of those questions .
Now , on the second one , yeah , I went to a caucus myself , and it was in Dubuque .
And Dubuque is a historic union town , a pretty Democratic town , but also a place where , presumably , Joe Biden would have done quite well .
I actually expected him to do pretty well in Dubuque .
It ’ s one of the reasons I went there .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ in my caucus , Joe Biden was barely running — he was essentially running about as well as Andrew Yang .
And as the night went on , Biden attracted some Klobuchar supporters and got to baseline viability .
But in Dubuque , again , a town where I thought he would have been doing significantly better , he was a weak fourth .
And I heard from across Iowa , anecdotally from precincts all over , that his numbers were falling way short of what was expected .
And that ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Iowa caucuses produce many winners and some losers .
You can finish second in Iowa and claim a better-than-expected run .
You can even finish like down the line , like , say , an Andrew Yang , and still point to a lot of people who showed up and were enthusiastic about your candidacy .
And so , not having those numbers creates a lack of clarity .
It makes it hard for people who have done well to capitalize on their show of strength .
But it also makes it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ race and get a sense of who ’ s got things going on .
And that ’ s where the Biden factor comes up , because if indeed Biden , the former vice president of the United States , running as the presumed front-runner for most of this race , even in Iowa , and certainly still talked about as a front-runner nationally , finished a weak fourth , that ’ s significant .
And it ’ s , frankly , the kind of thing that should have been a part of the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And , in fact , could I add one final thing on the complexity of all this ?
You know , we ’ re on a State of the Union day , right ?
And so , the timelines of news cycles become important .
And if you don ’ t get the results of the Iowa caucuses clear and well presented , pretty quickly , today , we ’ re going to be into watching Donald Trump give his State of the Union address , and , in effect , the ability @ @ @ @ @ @ @ communicate about that win is truncated .
It ’ s limited .
And if it was a really close race , that would be , you know , something you understood .
But if it ’ s just a foul-up by the people that are supposed to be getting the results in , they ’ re affecting a national race for president of the United States , one that they claim to want to be the — they said they wanted to be the first .
They wanted to get this started .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ badly , it really raises questions about whether they should be doing it .
AMY GOODMAN : And this is not the only reason .
I mean , you have so much focus last night on the Iowa caucuses , and cameras took — on the networks , took you into all these caucuses , you know , overwhelmingly white .
Iowa is , well , well over 90 % white , when the Democratic Party , it ’ s like half people of color .
And this is the first election contest @ @ @ @ @ @ @ So you have that on top of the crisis that took place last night .
JOHN NICHOLS : And , Amy , if I could add one other thing , too .
The caucuses are long .
You have to get there around 7:00 or before , really , to get in .
Then you take an hour or even an hour and a half , in some cases longer than that .
And for working-class folks , folks who work nights , that can be really tough .
There were a few @ @ @ @ @ @ @ caucuses and other systems .
But , basically , these caucuses have very low turnout as compared to primaries .
And as I was sitting there last night watching the caucus I was at play out , you had people walking back and forth across the room , and counts and recounts .
And it had a theater to it .
It was interesting .
But at the end of the night , you had to ask yourself : Wouldn ’ t it be easier if you just let these people vote ?
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ information about the company that developed the app .
And I was wondering what more you know .
Washington Examiner is saying Federal Election Commission filings reveal Buttigieg ’ s campaign gave tens of thousands of dollars to Shadow on July 23rd last year for software rights and subscriptions .
JOHN NICHOLS : Yeah , look , this is — I ’ m seeing the same reports you ’ re seeing and that you ’ ve reported on well here .
I don ’ t know much beyond that .
But what I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ moment in which this company , which I believe , if I ’ m hearing reports correctly , has also created an app or has an app that might be used in the Nevada caucuses — this company needs to go to maximum transparency right now .
We need to know everything about who their working with , who ’ s involved with it , not to be — you know , not to try and spout conspiracies or whatever , but to get to the bottom of it , to know what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have two areas here now where we really want to get a lot more clarity .
We want the Iowa Democratic Party to kind of just go to maximum clarity , go to maximum transparency , let us know what went wrong , why , who they were working with , why they were doing it , and also , as much as we can , about the results .
Let ’ s get it — let ’ s get it right .
And then also with this company , yeah , we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And we need it quickly .
I mean , this is not something where it ought to drag out , because , remember , for better or worse , we have set up a nominating process in this country , in the Democratic Party , where you go very quickly from the caucuses in Iowa to the primary in New Hampshire to — you know , you go on to South Carolina and Nevada .
And if you ’ ve got sort of lingering problems like this , it really does raise concerns @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
And I have to tell you , I was at these — at the caucus I went to , there was a massive number of young people who were caucusing for the first time .
You know , they are entering the political process , and they are coming with a lot of hope , a lot of idealism , a lot of belief that they can have an impact .
And then to have it glitching and messing up and to have controversies , that ’ s just exactly wrong .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ : John , I just wanted to ask you if you could briefly switch gears for a second and talk about — JUAN GONZÁLEZ : — a story that ’ s been largely eclipsed now with the mess in Iowa .
House impeachment managers and President Trump ’ s defense team presented their closing arguments in the impeachment trial on Monday , as the Republican-controlled Senate is poised to acquit Trump in a final vote on the two articles of impeachment on Wednesday .
This is lead impeachment manager , California Congressmember Adam @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you ’ re the author of the book The Genius of Impeachment : The Founders ’ Cure for Royalism .
Could you talk about , give us briefly your take on , what ’ s going on with the impeachment ?
JOHN NICHOLS : Well , it doesn ’ t look like we ’ re curing royalism all that well .
Look , impeachment is supposed to work in a certain way .
It ’ s supposed to have the House impeachment , then you move to the Senate for a serious trial @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that under Mitch McConnell ’ s management , this hasn ’ t been a serious trial .
It ’ s been a mess , without witnesses , with a lot of bad theatrics and , frankly , a lot of terrible constitutional theory put forward by Trump ’ s defense team .
Now we ’ re going to move to speeches by the senators .
Those are very important .
I want to hear those speeches .
I want to hear what they say .
They ’ re already beginning .
And I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And yet it ’ s all being — it ’ s playing out on this rushed schedule , built around the State of the Union , in the middle of it .
And , you know , look , at the end of the day , Mitch McConnell is arguably a defining figure in America , far beyond just Senate majority leader .
And he has managed this thing on behalf of Donald Trump in ways that are just incredibly offensive .
This should be going slower .
We should have time for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ put it on hold a couple days , let the Iowa caucuses play , let the State of the Union occur , and then spend the rest of the week having the closing arguments and the senators ’ speeches and then the vote that is inevitable , that would have been so much better .
But here , I fear that this important final moment is kind of getting lost in a cacophony .
I ’ m dramatically disappointed .
And believe me , for me to be more disappointed than I had @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , because I thought I had reached maximum disappointment .
But the way he ’ s handling this right now is really just like a manager for Donald Trump , and it ’ s just wrong .
AMY GOODMAN : Well , it will be very interesting to hear President Trump ’ s State of the Union address as he ’ s about to be acquitted .
In fact , he — if in fact he is tomorrow , and coming out of the chaos of Iowa .
I ’ m sure he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ about Democratic failures .
JOHN NICHOLS : Yes , I suspect he will .
AMY GOODMAN : John Nichols , I want to thank you for being with us , The Nation 's national affairs correspondent , host of the podcast Next Left , reporting on the ground in Iowa , just wrote the piece “ How to Figure Out Who ’ Won ' the Iowa Caucuses.
” His forthcoming book , The Fight for the Soul of the Democratic Party : The Enduring Legacy of Henry Wallace ’ s Antifascist , Antiracist @ @ @ @ @ @

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Chaos in Iowa. The Iowa Democratic Party has delayed releasing results from Monday’s caucus after uncovering inconsistencies in the reporting of data. Caucuses were held in 1,600 precincts across the state on Monday, but many precincts had trouble reporting the delegate totals to the state Democratic Party. Part of the blame was placed on a new smartphone app which was designed to help precinct chairs tabulate and report the vote. The app was built by a D.C.-based company called Shadow, which is connected to veterans of Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama’s presidential campaigns.
AMY GOODMAN: Early this morning, the campaign of Bernie Sanders released internal caucus numbers from 40% of the precincts in Iowa showing the Vermont senator is in first place with nearly 30% of the final count vote. According to the data released by the Sanders campaign, former South Bend Mayor Pete Buttigieg placed second with about 24.5% of the vote, followed by Senator Elizabeth Warren with 21%. Former Vice President Joe Biden placed a distant fourth with 12%, just slightly beating Senator Amy Klobuchar. Before flying to New Hampshire, Senator Sanders addressed supporters in Iowa.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS: Let me begin by stating that I imagine, have a strong feeling, that at some point the results will be announced. And when those results are announced, I have a good feeling we’re going to be doing very, very well here in Iowa. And the message that Iowa has sent to the nation — it’s a message shared by the American people — is that we want a government that represents all of us, not just wealthy campaign contributors and the 1%.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Former South Bend Mayor Pete Buttigieg claimed victory in Iowa, even though no official results had been released.
PETE BUTTIGIEG: By all indications, we are going on to New Hampshire victorious! … We have exactly one shot to defeat Donald Trump. And we’re not going to do it by overreaching. We’re not going to do it by division. We’re not going to do it by saying, “It’s my way or the highway.” This is our shot, our only shot, to galvanize an American majority to win. And make no mistake: Ours is the campaign that will defeat this president.
AMY GOODMAN: Senator Elizabeth Warren also addressed supporters in Iowa in a late-night speech.
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN: We don’t know all the results tonight, but tonight has already showed that Americans have a deep hunger for big structural change to make our economy and our democracy work for everyone. Tonight showed that our path to victory is to fight hard for the changes Americans are demanding, changes that Democrats, independents and Republicans are demanding. Tonight showed that our agenda isn’t just a progressive agenda, it isn’t just a Democratic agenda, it’s in American agenda.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re joined right now by John Nichols of The Nation magazine, its national affairs correspondent and host of the podcast Next Left. He’s been reporting on the ground in Iowa, just wrote the piece “How to Figure Out Who 'Won' the Iowa Caucuses.” He was in Dubuque, Iowa, covering the caucus last night and joins us now from Madison, Wisconsin.
Welcome back to Democracy Now!, John. Well, can you explain what happened last night — the chaos, the confusion, the breakdown of the counting system?
JOHN NICHOLS: Well, I can try, although it’s a mess that’s going to be talked about for a long time and will impact, I think, the future of the Iowa caucuses. I’ll start at the bottom. I went to a caucus last night in Dubuque, in Precinct 9A. And as in cases across the state, in 1,600 precincts, grassroots volunteers ran the caucus very, very well. It was complicated. They have a lot of complicated rules. But in about an hour and a half, they had everything done, dealing with more than 200 people that showed up and lots of campaigns. And this happened all over the state. And so, it looked like a night that was working.
And then, as the chairs of these caucuses tried to communicate the results to the state party, everything fell apart. Now, there was an app, which you mentioned in the intro, that had been distributed to the chairs, the people who run these caucuses. And again, these are volunteers. And they had trouble getting — apparently, getting into it. They had trouble using it. There were all sorts of concerns. And we can detail them more, if you like, in a moment. But the interesting thing is that then they were told there’s a hotline you can call if the app doesn’t work. And so all of these chairs around the state started calling the hotline. And there were reports that people were on — waiting on hold on the hotline for an hour, even two hours. And sometimes when they finally got through, it hung up. And so, the thing just wasn’t working.
And for a long time, there were no results. And so, thousands of people at all these campaign rallies and events at the end of the night, the senators, the former vice president, everybody waiting for results, and then people all over the country, all over the world, waiting for results. And there was not clarity. And then the party says, “Well, we’ve got some quality control problems.” Now, that sends up alarm bells immediately. Then they say, “Well, there’s inconsistencies.” And then, in a series of statements, they try to defend it and say, “Well, ultimately, we’re going to get this right.” And they may. But it was just a fiasco, by any measure.
And you ended up in a situation where three candidates, or at least several candidates, essentially, claimed victory and where you have this situation with the Sanders camp releasing partial results. But the truth of the matter is, while I do think it looks like Bernie Sanders had a very good night, we don’t know, even now, the next morning, and it’s created — I can’t even begin to describe the frustration on the part not just of campaigns and people around the country, but of Iowans, who themselves devoted tremendous amounts of energy to making these caucuses work at the grassroots.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, John, what is most surprising, as you mentioned, is that even if there were some precincts that had trouble reporting, there must have been a good number of precincts that actually got their results in and for which there may not —there were probably not any questions. But the fact that they’re not releasing any results, it makes me think back to when Mexico several years ago in a presidential election stopped the vote counting, and then, the next day, somebody else had won. This whole issue of not releasing any results is especially problematic, but I think — I’m wondering if you could comment on that. But also, there seems to be little doubt that the big news of the night is that Joe Biden did not have anywhere near the support that most of the polls were indicating beforehand that he had. Even though his numbers were already slipping, it looks like it’s even worse than that.
JOHN NICHOLS: Yeah. You’ve asked two important — or, raised two important issues here, so let me try and address them both. The first thing you’re talking about, releasing the results, that’s complicated. And when you have a little bit in and if you do actually see inconsistencies, you want to be a little careful with that. But one of the problems in Iowa is, this is the third cycle in a row that they’ve had kind of big problems and some controversies about how things were handled. In 2012, there were initial reports that, I believe, Romney won the Republican caucuses, and it turned out it was Rick Santorum. But Santorum was denied the boost, the bump, of having been declared the winner. In 2016, there was an incredibly close result, and they didn’t release the raw totals of how people who showed up for the caucuses lined up on the Democratic side. That caused a lot of concern and controversy. And now you have this. And so, the Iowa Democratic Party should have practiced maximum transparency from the first moment and done its very best to get information out about the problem and, if they could, release partial results to get that out, as well. So that’s the answer to one of those questions.
Now, on the second one, yeah, I went to a caucus myself, and it was in Dubuque. And Dubuque is a historic union town, a pretty Democratic town, but also a place where, presumably, Joe Biden would have done quite well. I actually expected him to do pretty well in Dubuque. It’s one of the reasons I went there. When they did the initial breakup just in my caucus, Joe Biden was barely running — he was essentially running about as well as Andrew Yang. And as the night went on, Biden attracted some Klobuchar supporters and got to baseline viability. But in Dubuque, again, a town where I thought he would have been doing significantly better, he was a weak fourth. And I heard from across Iowa, anecdotally from precincts all over, that his numbers were falling way short of what was expected.
And that’s significant, because, you know, the Iowa caucuses produce many winners and some losers. You can finish second in Iowa and claim a better-than-expected run. You can even finish like down the line, like, say, an Andrew Yang, and still point to a lot of people who showed up and were enthusiastic about your candidacy. And so, not having those numbers creates a lack of clarity. It makes it hard for people who have done well to capitalize on their show of strength. But it also makes it hard for people trying to analyze the race and get a sense of who’s got things going on. And that’s where the Biden factor comes up, because if indeed Biden, the former vice president of the United States, running as the presumed front-runner for most of this race, even in Iowa, and certainly still talked about as a front-runner nationally, finished a weak fourth, that’s significant. And it’s, frankly, the kind of thing that should have been a part of the discussion last night and this morning.
And, in fact, could I add one final thing on the complexity of all this? You know, we’re on a State of the Union day, right? And so, the timelines of news cycles become important. And if you don’t get the results of the Iowa caucuses clear and well presented, pretty quickly, today, we’re going to be into watching Donald Trump give his State of the Union address, and, in effect, the ability of a Democratic winner in Iowa to communicate about that win is truncated. It’s limited. And if it was a really close race, that would be, you know, something you understood. But if it’s just a foul-up by the people that are supposed to be getting the results in, they’re affecting a national race for president of the United States, one that they claim to want to be the — they said they wanted to be the first. They wanted to get this started. And if they mess it up this badly, it really raises questions about whether they should be doing it.
AMY GOODMAN: And this is not the only reason. I mean, you have so much focus last night on the Iowa caucuses, and cameras took — on the networks, took you into all these caucuses, you know, overwhelmingly white. Iowa is, well, well over 90% white, when the Democratic Party, it’s like half people of color. And this is the first election contest, and that determines so much. So you have that on top of the crisis that took place last night.
JOHN NICHOLS: And, Amy, if I could add one other thing, too. The caucuses are long. You have to get there around 7:00 or before, really, to get in. Then you take an hour or even an hour and a half, in some cases longer than that. And for working-class folks, folks who work nights, that can be really tough. There were a few efforts to try and set up satellite caucuses and other systems. But, basically, these caucuses have very low turnout as compared to primaries. And as I was sitting there last night watching the caucus I was at play out, you had people walking back and forth across the room, and counts and recounts. And it had a theater to it. It was interesting. But at the end of the night, you had to ask yourself: Wouldn’t it be easier if you just let these people vote?
AMY GOODMAN: You also have the information about the company that developed the app. And I was wondering what more you know. Washington Examiner is saying Federal Election Commission filings reveal Buttigieg’s campaign gave tens of thousands of dollars to Shadow on July 23rd last year for software rights and subscriptions.
JOHN NICHOLS: Yeah, look, this is — I’m seeing the same reports you’re seeing and that you’ve reported on well here. I don’t know much beyond that. But what I will say is, this is a moment in which this company, which I believe, if I’m hearing reports correctly, has also created an app or has an app that might be used in the Nevada caucuses — this company needs to go to maximum transparency right now. We need to know everything about who their working with, who’s involved with it, not to be — you know, not to try and spout conspiracies or whatever, but to get to the bottom of it, to know what is real.
And so, we have two areas here now where we really want to get a lot more clarity. We want the Iowa Democratic Party to kind of just go to maximum clarity, go to maximum transparency, let us know what went wrong, why, who they were working with, why they were doing it, and also, as much as we can, about the results. Let’s get it — let’s get it right. And then also with this company, yeah, we need to know the full story. And we need it quickly. I mean, this is not something where it ought to drag out, because, remember, for better or worse, we have set up a nominating process in this country, in the Democratic Party, where you go very quickly from the caucuses in Iowa to the primary in New Hampshire to — you know, you go on to South Carolina and Nevada. And if you’ve got sort of lingering problems like this, it really does raise concerns.
And it undermines confidence, frankly. And I have to tell you, I was at these — at the caucus I went to, there was a massive number of young people who were caucusing for the first time. You know, they are entering the political process, and they are coming with a lot of hope, a lot of idealism, a lot of belief that they can have an impact. And then to have it glitching and messing up and to have controversies, that’s just exactly wrong. It’s exactly —
AMY GOODMAN: I would think —
JOHN NICHOLS: Yeah.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: John, I just wanted to ask you if you could briefly switch gears for a second and talk about —
JOHN NICHOLS: Sure.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: — a story that’s been largely eclipsed now with the mess in Iowa. House impeachment managers and President Trump’s defense team presented their closing arguments in the impeachment trial on Monday, as the Republican-controlled Senate is poised to acquit Trump in a final vote on the two articles of impeachment on Wednesday. This is lead impeachment manager, California Congressmember Adam Schiff.
REP. ADAM SCHIFF: He has betrayed our national security, and he will do so again. He has compromised our elections, and he will do so again. You will not change him. You cannot constrain him. He is who he is. Truth matters little to him. What’s right matters even less. And decency matters not at all.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: John, you’re the author of the book The Genius of Impeachment: The Founders’ Cure for Royalism. Could you talk about, give us briefly your take on, what’s going on with the impeachment?
JOHN NICHOLS: Well, it doesn’t look like we’re curing royalism all that well. Look, impeachment is supposed to work in a certain way. It’s supposed to have the House impeachment, then you move to the Senate for a serious trial. The fact of the matter is that under Mitch McConnell’s management, this hasn’t been a serious trial. It’s been a mess, without witnesses, with a lot of bad theatrics and, frankly, a lot of terrible constitutional theory put forward by Trump’s defense team. Now we’re going to move to speeches by the senators. Those are very important. I want to hear those speeches. I want to hear what they say. They’re already beginning. And I think that’s really important. And yet it’s all being — it’s playing out on this rushed schedule, built around the State of the Union, in the middle of it.
And, you know, look, at the end of the day, Mitch McConnell is arguably a defining figure in America, far beyond just Senate majority leader. And he has managed this thing on behalf of Donald Trump in ways that are just incredibly offensive. This should be going slower. We should have time for a discourse. If they needed to put it on hold a couple days, let the Iowa caucuses play, let the State of the Union occur, and then spend the rest of the week having the closing arguments and the senators’ speeches and then the vote that is inevitable, that would have been so much better. But here, I fear that this important final moment is kind of getting lost in a cacophony. I’m dramatically disappointed. And believe me, for me to be more disappointed than I had been before in Mitch McConnell is shocking, because I thought I had reached maximum disappointment. But the way he’s handling this right now is really just like a manager for Donald Trump, and it’s just wrong.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, it will be very interesting to hear President Trump’s State of the Union address as he’s about to be acquitted. In fact, he — if in fact he is tomorrow, and coming out of the chaos of Iowa. I’m sure he’ll have a lot to say about Democratic failures.
JOHN NICHOLS: Yes, I suspect he will.
AMY GOODMAN: John Nichols, I want to thank you for being with us, The Nation's national affairs correspondent, host of the podcast Next Left, reporting on the ground in Iowa, just wrote the piece “How to Figure Out Who ’Won' the Iowa Caucuses.” His forthcoming book, The Fight for the Soul of the Democratic Party: The Enduring Legacy of Henry Wallace’s Antifascist, Antiracist Politics. Stay with us.


democracynow--2020-02-04--Headlines for February  4, 2020

Headlines for February  4, 2020

The outcome of the Iowa Democratic caucuses is still undecided after purported “ inconsistencies ” led to confusion in the reporting of the results .
The Iowa Democratic Party says it expects to release the results at some point today .
Issues with a new app being used in the caucuses are believed to be partly to blame for the delay .
The app , built by the company Shadow , was reportedly not tested at scale or vetted by the Homeland Security Department ’ s cybersecurity agency before being deployed in the caucuses .
The D.C.-based Shadow is connected @ @ @ @ @ @ @ founded by a former staffer of Barack Obama ’ s 2012 re-election campaign .
Early this morning , Bernie Sanders ’ s campaign released internal caucus numbers from 40 % of the precincts in Iowa showing the Vermont senator in first place , followed by former South Bend Mayor Pete Buttigieg .
This is Senator Bernie Sanders speaking Monday night .
Sen. Bernie Sanders : “ When those results are announced , I have a good feeling we ’ re going to be doing very , very well here in Iowa .
And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the nation — it ’ s a message shared by the American people — is that we want a government that represents all of us , not just wealthy campaign contributors and the 1 % .
” Pete Buttigieg , meanwhile , claimed victory in Iowa , despite the lack of official results .
Minnesota Senator Amy Klobuchar told supporters , “ We are punching above our weight , ” while Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren said the race was too close to call .
And former Vice President Joe Biden said his campaign @ @ @ @ @ @ @ share of delegates.
” We ’ ll have more on the chaos and confusion in Iowa after headlines .

The outcome of the Iowa Democratic caucuses is still undecided after purported “inconsistencies” led to confusion in the reporting of the results. The Iowa Democratic Party says it expects to release the results at some point today. Issues with a new app being used in the caucuses are believed to be partly to blame for the delay. The app, built by the company Shadow, was reportedly not tested at scale or vetted by the Homeland Security Department’s cybersecurity agency before being deployed in the caucuses. The D.C.-based Shadow is connected to the digital strategy firm Acronym, founded by a former staffer of Barack Obama’s 2012 re-election campaign.
Early this morning, Bernie Sanders’s campaign released internal caucus numbers from 40% of the precincts in Iowa showing the Vermont senator in first place, followed by former South Bend Mayor Pete Buttigieg. This is Senator Bernie Sanders speaking Monday night.
Sen. Bernie Sanders: “When those results are announced, I have a good feeling we’re going to be doing very, very well here in Iowa. And the message that Iowa has sent to the nation — it’s a message shared by the American people — is that we want a government that represents all of us, not just wealthy campaign contributors and the 1%.”
Pete Buttigieg, meanwhile, claimed victory in Iowa, despite the lack of official results. Minnesota Senator Amy Klobuchar told supporters, “We are punching above our weight,” while Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren said the race was too close to call. And former Vice President Joe Biden said his campaign would be leaving Iowa with “our share of delegates.” We’ll have more on the chaos and confusion in Iowa after headlines.