democracynow--2020-09-21--"RBG": Film Director Reflects on Ruth Bader Ginsburg's Lifelong Fight for Gender Equity

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
The Quarantine Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman , as we continue to look at the life and legacy of Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg , who , by the end of her life , was internationally known simply by her initials — RBG — or , as one best-selling biography put it , “ The Notorious RBG.
” And a 2018 documentary film about her legal career , personal history and unexpected celebrity premiered @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hit .
It ’ s called RBG .
This is the film ’ s trailer .
AMY GOODMAN : That ’ s the trailer for the Oscar-nominated documentary RBG .
In this clip from the film , Justice Ginsburg talks about the first time she argued before the Supreme Court , in the case Frontiero v. Richardson in 1972 , centering on a female Air Force lieutenant who had been denied the same housing and medical benefits as her male colleagues .
Ginsburg argued the Air Force ’ s statute for housing allowances @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Supreme Court ruled in her favor 8 to 1 .
AMY GOODMAN : Ruth Bader Ginsburg .
And we ’ re joined by Julie Cohen , who , along with Betsy West , is director and producer of the Academy Award-nominated documentary RBG .
Julie , welcome back to Democracy Now !
We had you on when the film premiered at the Sundance Film Festival .
We had you on through the health challenges that Justice Ginsburg has faced , and now , sadly , today , in the aftermath of her death @ @ @ @ @ @ @ don ’ t know about Ruth Bader Ginsburg , how she was shaped , her early years and those cases she argued before the Supreme Court ?
JULIE COHEN : Sure .
I need to gather myself a bit , because , actually , listening to that , those clips of Justice Ginsburg , feel a bit emotional in this context .
I haven ’ t been able to watch the film again since hearing of her death on Friday evening .
And just listening to that quiet but centered and super-determined voice @ @ @ @ @ @ @ life , and now that she ’ s passed away , is moving , as well .
Justice Ginsburg was shaped hugely , like many of us are , by her mother .
You know , both her parents were from immigrant families , both from extremely modest backgrounds .
And RBG ’ s mom — at the time she was Ruth Bader , obviously — got cancer when Ruth Bader was in high school , and was quite ill for a period of time .
And RBG was so close to her @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s impending death .
But her mother really used the opportunity to impart a lot of life lessons to a young Ruth Bader , to really instill in her a deep , deep ambition , a desire to put her all into education .
You know , her mom told her , like , “ Go find love .
For sure , that ’ s important .
But , like , don ’ t rely — you need to be independent .
Like , don ’ t rely on a man to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ life .
You actually need to make sure you can fend for yourself.
” And she also had sort of some life philosophies , which were , you know , basically , “ Don ’ t waste your time on useless emotions — anger , envy , like , guilt .
You know , forget those things.
” And RBG really took that advice to heart .
I ’ m not saying she never got angry .
Surely she did .
Everyone does .
But her inclination , based on what her mom @ @ @ @ @ @ @ anger and really to try not to show it , to look for peace and conciliation and stability wherever she could find it .
You know , we spoke to her — in our documentary , we had a number of clips of her arguing those early cases for gender equality before the Supreme Court in the 1970s .
She ’ s arguing at this point before this group of nine male justices , who — you have to put yourself in the context of back at that time .
Like , women @ @ @ @ @ @ @ came out , people really didn ’ t get it .
Like , “ I don ’ t understand .
What are women complaining about ?
We open the door for them .
We treat them very politely .
We give them rings when we propose to them .
Like , we just don ’ t — we just don ’ t see why a woman would be complaining about her treatment in any way.
” And they often not only were obtuse about her arguments , but were also quite condescending to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , here she is , an esteemed lawyer , arguing cases before the highest court in the land , and they ’ re kind of like making fun of her at times .
And she just took it , you know , like water off a duck ’ s back .
She never let that condescension get her down .
She told us that she liked to think of herself as a kindergarten teacher — you know , not just a teacher , but a kindergarten teacher .
And that ’ s how @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Court justices as kindergarten students who just needed to be schooled .
And she did indeed school them and , I think , moved on , later in her career and as she ’ s become this public figure of “ The Notorious RBG , ” to kind of schooling a lot of us , not only about legal and constitutional principles , but about how to handle the tricky emotional challenges that come up for all of us , particularly people that are fighting for their rights .
AMY GOODMAN : And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the cases also where — and we ’ re going to talk about this in a minute — where she used a man to demonstrate what inequality was all about ?
JULIE COHEN : Yeah , I mean , such a clever — you know , she was a deeply strategic person .
She was not choosing what cases to pursue just on a whim or , like , that sounds like a good , cool case .
She was thinking , like , “ How might I win ?
” And , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ consciously modeling her strategy after one that had happened 10 or 15 years before she was arguing her cases , with the string of Supreme Court cases argued by a young Thurgood Marshall , before he was a justice , when he was a young lawyer taking cases for racial equality .
Thurgood Marshall , I believe , argued more than 30 cases before the Supreme Court , had an extraordinary win record .
And the reason that he achieved so much for racially equality and for forwarding the idea of racial equality @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , particularly , was by being strategic .
He did not take every case .
He looked at cases that he thought were winnable and , like , incremental , like one little step at a time .
Justice Ginsburg was a student of what Supreme Court jurisprudence — she was aware of what Thurgood Marshall had achieved .
And when she started to look into gender equality cases , she wanted to be like Thurgood Marshall in terms of picking cases very strategically .
And it occurred to her that there were @ @ @ @ @ @ @ — I mean , Stephen Wiesenfeld is going to tell you about his own case having to do with the death benefits that a man gets as a widower versus what a woman would get as a widow — that there were instances where — like , you know , say , a man having leave for child care , that kind of thing , that there were instances where men also were victimized by gender discrimination .
And her view was like , people should be taken on their own terms .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ as individuals , not as representatives of their gender .
And she thought that was going to be a point that would — that might be able to sink in to some of these male justices , who just hadn ’ t thought through the idea about women ’ s rights at all .
AMY GOODMAN : And finally , 30 seconds , Julie , on your thoughts on her passing and what happens next ?
JULIE COHEN : I am incredibly sad about her passing .
I would hope , as I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of these fiery dissents that she ’ s been writing , particularly over the past 10 years , would ultimately become the basis of later Supreme Court majority opinions , where her thoughts and her legal ideas become the law of the land .
AMY GOODMAN : Julie Cohen , thanks so much for being with us , co-directed and produced the Academy Award-nominated film RBG .
When we come back , we hear from the man Ginsburg once called her favorite plaintiff .
Stay with us .
AMY GOODMAN : “ The @ @ @ @ @ @ @ by Luciano Pavarotti .
Ruth Bader Ginsburg loved opera , reportedly spent her final weeks , right up until her death , visiting with family , exercising , working and listening to opera .
And she also performed in one .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now! The Quarantine Report. I’m Amy Goodman, as we continue to look at the life and legacy of Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who, by the end of her life, was internationally known simply by her initials — RBG — or, as one best-selling biography put it, “The Notorious RBG.” And a 2018 documentary film about her legal career, personal history and unexpected celebrity premiered at Sundance and became a surprise smash hit. It’s called RBG. This is the film’s trailer.
JUSTICE RUTH BADER GINSBURG: “I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.”
ANNOUNCER: We welcome today Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
NINA TOTENBERG: She’s become such an icon.
FAN: Would you mind signing this copy?
JUSTICE RUTH BADER GINSBURG: I am 84 years old, and everyone wants to take a picture with me.
UNIDENTIFIED: Notorious RBG.
UNIDENTIFIED: Yeah, yeah.
GLORIA STEINEM: When you come right down to it, the closest thing to a superhero I know.
NINA TOTENBERG: Ruth Bader Ginsburg changed the way the world is for American women.
JUSTICE RUTH BADER GINSBURG: I became a lawyer when women were not wanted by the legal profession.
NINA TOTENBERG: Thousands of state and federal laws discriminated on the basis of gender. She was following in the footsteps of the battle for racial equality. She wanted equal protection for women.
RUTH BADER GINSBURG: Men and women are persons of equal dignity, and they should count equally before the law.
NINA TOTENBERG: She captured for the male members of the court what it was like to be a second-class citizen.
RUTH BADER GINSBURG: The point is that the discriminatory line almost inevitably hurts women.
JUSTICE RUTH BADER GINSBURG: I did see myself as kind of a kindergarten teacher in those days, because the judges didn’t think sex discrimination existed.
JUDGE RUTH BADER GINSBURG: I have had the great good fortune to share life with a partner, truly extraordinary for his generation.
JUSTICE RUTH BADER GINSBURG: He was the first boy I ever knew who cared that I had a brain.
ARTHUR R. MILLER: She is a center of power, on and off the court.
IRIN CARMON: Every time Justice Ginsburg wrote a dissent, the internet would explode.
AMINATOU SOW: I came up with a couple slogans. “You can’t spell truth without Ruth.”
JUDGE RUTH BADER GINSBURG: I surely would not be in this room today without the determined efforts of men and women who kept dreams alive.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s the trailer for the Oscar-nominated documentary RBG. In this clip from the film, Justice Ginsburg talks about the first time she argued before the Supreme Court, in the case Frontiero v. Richardson in 1972, centering on a female Air Force lieutenant who had been denied the same housing and medical benefits as her male colleagues. Ginsburg argued the Air Force’s statute for housing allowances treated women as inferior, and the Supreme Court ruled in her favor 8 to 1.
JUSTICE RUTH BADER GINSBURG: There was not a single question. I just went on speaking. And I, at the time, wondered, “Are they just indulging me and not listening, or am I telling them something they haven’t heard before, and are they paying attention?”
BRENDA FEIGEN: The justices were just glued to her. I don’t think they were expecting to have to deal with something as powerful as a shear force of her argument, that was just all-encompassing. And they were there to talk about a little statute in the government code. I mean, it was just — we seized the moment to change American society.
RUTH BADER GINSBURG: In asking the court to declare sex a suspect criterion, we urge a position forcibly stated in 1837 by Sarah Grimké, noted abolitionist and advocate of equal rights for men and women. She said, “I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.”
AMY GOODMAN: Ruth Bader Ginsburg. And we’re joined by Julie Cohen, who, along with Betsy West, is director and producer of the Academy Award-nominated documentary RBG.
Julie, welcome back to Democracy Now! We had you on when the film premiered at the Sundance Film Festival. We had you on through the health challenges that Justice Ginsburg has faced, and now, sadly, today, in the aftermath of her death. Can you talk about what we don’t know about Ruth Bader Ginsburg, how she was shaped, her early years and those cases she argued before the Supreme Court?
JULIE COHEN: Sure. I need to gather myself a bit, because, actually, listening to that, those clips of Justice Ginsburg, feel a bit emotional in this context. I haven’t been able to watch the film again since hearing of her death on Friday evening. And just listening to that quiet but centered and super-determined voice is — I found it moving in life, and now that she’s passed away, is moving, as well.
Justice Ginsburg was shaped hugely, like many of us are, by her mother. You know, both her parents were from immigrant families, both from extremely modest backgrounds. And RBG’s mom — at the time she was Ruth Bader, obviously — got cancer when Ruth Bader was in high school, and was quite ill for a period of time. And RBG was so close to her mother and so saddened by her mom’s impending death. But her mother really used the opportunity to impart a lot of life lessons to a young Ruth Bader, to really instill in her a deep, deep ambition, a desire to put her all into education. You know, her mom told her, like, “Go find love. For sure, that’s important. But, like, don’t rely — you need to be independent. Like, don’t rely on a man to bring you what you need in your life. You actually need to make sure you can fend for yourself.” And she also had sort of some life philosophies, which were, you know, basically, “Don’t waste your time on useless emotions — anger, envy, like, guilt. You know, forget those things.” And RBG really took that advice to heart. I’m not saying she never got angry. Surely she did. Everyone does. But her inclination, based on what her mom said, was always to moderate that anger and really to try not to show it, to look for peace and conciliation and stability wherever she could find it.
You know, we spoke to her — in our documentary, we had a number of clips of her arguing those early cases for gender equality before the Supreme Court in the 1970s. She’s arguing at this point before this group of nine male justices, who — you have to put yourself in the context of back at that time. Like, women’s rights, when it first came out, people really didn’t get it. Like, “I don’t understand. What are women complaining about? We open the door for them. We treat them very politely. We give them rings when we propose to them. Like, we just don’t — we just don’t see why a woman would be complaining about her treatment in any way.” And they often not only were obtuse about her arguments, but were also quite condescending to her while she was — you know, here she is, an esteemed lawyer, arguing cases before the highest court in the land, and they’re kind of like making fun of her at times. And she just took it, you know, like water off a duck’s back. She never let that condescension get her down.
She told us that she liked to think of herself as a kindergarten teacher — you know, not just a teacher, but a kindergarten teacher. And that’s how she — she looked at these Supreme Court justices as kindergarten students who just needed to be schooled. And she did indeed school them and, I think, moved on, later in her career and as she’s become this public figure of “The Notorious RBG,” to kind of schooling a lot of us, not only about legal and constitutional principles, but about how to handle the tricky emotional challenges that come up for all of us, particularly people that are fighting for their rights.
AMY GOODMAN: And the case United States v. Virginia, the cases also where — and we’re going to talk about this in a minute — where she used a man to demonstrate what inequality was all about?
JULIE COHEN: Yeah, I mean, such a clever — you know, she was a deeply strategic person. She was not choosing what cases to pursue just on a whim or, like, that sounds like a good, cool case. She was thinking, like, “How might I win?”
And, by the way, she was very consciously modeling her strategy after one that had happened 10 or 15 years before she was arguing her cases, with the string of Supreme Court cases argued by a young Thurgood Marshall, before he was a justice, when he was a young lawyer taking cases for racial equality. Thurgood Marshall, I believe, argued more than 30 cases before the Supreme Court, had an extraordinary win record. And the reason that he achieved so much for racially equality and for forwarding the idea of racial equality under the 14th Amendment of the Constitution, particularly, was by being strategic. He did not take every case. He looked at cases that he thought were winnable and, like, incremental, like one little step at a time. Justice Ginsburg was a student of what Supreme Court jurisprudence — she was aware of what Thurgood Marshall had achieved. And when she started to look into gender equality cases, she wanted to be like Thurgood Marshall in terms of picking cases very strategically.
And it occurred to her that there were a number of ways having to do — I mean, Stephen Wiesenfeld is going to tell you about his own case having to do with the death benefits that a man gets as a widower versus what a woman would get as a widow — that there were instances where — like, you know, say, a man having leave for child care, that kind of thing, that there were instances where men also were victimized by gender discrimination. And her view was like, people should be taken on their own terms. Like, let’s view people as individuals, not as representatives of their gender. And she thought that was going to be a point that would — that might be able to sink in to some of these male justices, who just hadn’t thought through the idea about women’s rights at all.
AMY GOODMAN: And finally, 30 seconds, Julie, on your thoughts on her passing and what happens next?
JULIE COHEN: I am incredibly sad about her passing. I would hope, as I know Justice Ginsburg hoped, that some of these fiery dissents that she’s been writing, particularly over the past 10 years, would ultimately become the basis of later Supreme Court majority opinions, where her thoughts and her legal ideas become the law of the land.
AMY GOODMAN: Julie Cohen, thanks so much for being with us, co-directed and produced the Academy Award-nominated film RBG.
When we come back, we hear from the man Ginsburg once called her favorite plaintiff. Stay with us.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: “The Daughter of the Regiment,” performed by Luciano Pavarotti. Ruth Bader Ginsburg loved opera, reportedly spent her final weeks, right up until her death, visiting with family, exercising, working and listening to opera. And she also performed in one.


democracynow--2020-09-21--Remembering RBG: Legal Giant's Death Sparks Furious Fight in D.C. over Vacant Supreme Court Seat

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : We spend the hour looking at the life and legacy of Ruth Bader Ginsburg , as well as the future of the Supreme Court .
Ginsburg died on Friday at the age of 87 after serving 27 years as a Supreme Court justice , becoming the most prominent member of the court ’ s liberal wing .
Ginsburg first gained fame in the 1970s , when she co-founded the Women ’ s Rights Project at the American Civil Liberties Union , where @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Supreme Court , winning five .
She once famously quoted the abolitionist Sarah Grimké during one of her oral arguments .
AMY GOODMAN : Ruth Bader Ginsburg became a federal appellate judge in 1980 , then , in 1993 , was sworn in as just the second female Supreme Court justice .
During her Senate confirmation hearing , she openly defended the right to have an abortion .
As a Supreme Court justice , she was a strong supporter of reproductive rights , women ’ s rights , expanding LGBTQ rights and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Act .
Some of Ginsburg ’ s most memorable opinions were dissents .
In 2013 , she dissented when the court struck down a key section of the Voting Rights Act .
She wrote , quote , “ Throwing out preclearance when it has worked and is continuing to work to stop discriminatory changes is like throwing away your umbrella in a rainstorm because you are not getting wet , ” unquote .
While Ginsburg was known to be a leader on the court ’ s liberal wing , she sometimes sided with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ conservative majority approving a natural gas pipeline being built under the Appalachian Trail .
She also approved the Trump administration ’ s policy of expediting deportation of people seeking asylum .
Ginsburg ’ s death has set off a battle in Washington .
She died on September 18 , just 46 days before the November election .
In 2016 , Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell refused to hold confirmation hearings for Merrick Garland , President Obama ’ s pick to replace Justice Antonin Scalia , who died nearly nine months before the election @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , quote , “ The American people should have a voice in the selection of their next Supreme Court justice.
” But now McConnell has vowed to hold a vote on Trump ’ s pick to replace Ginsburg , setting off a battle in the Senate , where the Republicans maintain a 53-to-47 advantage .
The Democrats need 51 votes to block a potential nominee .
Two Republican senators , Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins , have already said they oppose voting on Ginsburg ’ s replacement before the election .
President Trump @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Ginsburg as soon as Tuesday .
Top contenders include federal judges Barbara Lagoa and Amy Coney Barrett .
If the Senate confirms Trump ’ s nominee , it will give conservatives a 6-to-3 advantage on the court .
It would also mean the majority of the justices on the court were selected by presidents that did not win the popular vote .
Days before she died , Justice Ginsburg [ dictated ] a final statement to her granddaughter .
It read , quote , “ My most fervent wish is that I will @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is installed , ” unquote .
Over the weekend , vigils were held outside the Supreme Court and across the country to remember Ruth Bader Ginsburg .
Later in the program , we ’ ll be joined by a man Ginsburg once called her favorite plaintiff , and we ’ ll be joined by Julie Cohen , co-director of the Oscar-nominated documentary RBG .
But we begin today ’ s show with Dahlia Lithwick .
She ’ s senior legal correspondent at Slate.com , her latest piece headlined “ What Ruth Bader Ginsburg @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Well , Dahlia , welcome to Democracy Now !
Thanks so much for joining us .
I know this is a deeply painful day to you both personally and politically .
Talk about how you came to know Justice Ginsburg , what she meant to you , and then what you think about what ’ s happening today .
DAHLIA LITHWICK : Thanks , Amy .
And thanks for having me .
I got to know her , actually , latish in my career .
I had been covering the court for some @ @ @ @ @ @ @ interview to The Wall Street Journal 's Jess Bravin , and he asked her who she read .
And she named a couple people , and then she said , “ Oh , I read that girl at Slate , Dahlia Lithwick.
” And then she called me “ spicy.
” And I think she liked the fact that I was irreverent .
And shortly after that , I got to interview her for the first time when Glamour named her their woman of the year , and she gave me an amazing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ recently , I got to sit down with her actually in late January , right before the court shut down for COVID .
I got to spend an hour with her just talking about her experience being one of nine women who started at Harvard Law school in a class of 500 men .
And so , I 've just been incredibly blessed in my connections to her .
And , you know , as to what she meant to me , I mean , I started law school just as she was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I think I can say , with great confidence , that had I not seen Sandra Day O ’ Connor and Ruth Bader Ginsburg on the Supreme Court , I would not , probably , have felt that there was a place for me at law school .
I know thousands and thousands of women feel the same .
And then , simply as a marker of what a woman can do , who at every turn is faced with closed doors , lost opportunities , unbelievable discrimination , and how at every @ @ @ @ @ @ @ around and turned it into another success .
I just think the arc of her life , Amy , has been to fight for the women who came after and to bear the responsibility of the women who came before who couldn ’ t finish the fight .
AMY GOODMAN : So , talk about what you feel are her most important contributions .
DAHLIA LITHWICK : Well , I think you ’ ve identified — I think she sort of has three acts in America .
The first is her unbelievable litigation @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Rights Project at the ACLU , she almost single-handedly became the architect of a series of what looked to be small , incremental cases that fought consistently to do away with gender discrimination as built in the law .
And , of course , the genius of those cases — I know you ’ re going to talk about this later — is that she would bring them on behalf of men , not women , but men who were subject to discriminatory laws because the law assumed that men went out to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
And she built , slowly , the same way Thurgood Marshall built in the world of race equality , one case after another after another that dismantled that patriarchal view of the world .
And so , there ’ s that piece of it , which is the legal career that ends up really enforcing the idea of equality under the Constitution .
Then there ’ s her time on the court and the enormous series of cases she both authored and later dissented in , where she put that into effect @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Institute — she forced them to accept women cadets , writing that it is discriminatory to assume that women cadets can ’ t go to that school — changed the landscape forever .
And then , I think , this third act , which we really only saw in the last decade , where she became this tiny , five-foot , less-than-a-hundred-pound rockstar , when she became “ Notorious RBG , ” and everyone had a tote bag , and everybody had the earrings , and everybody knew her dissents by heart .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ larger than one associate justice on the court .
And I think she just became a symbol , particularly in the last four years , for women who felt powerless and hopeless , that you don ’ t get to feel powerless and hopeless .
You just keep fighting .
AMY GOODMAN : And how she became “ The Notorious RBG ” ?
DAHLIA LITHWICK : It came from , you know , toward the end of her career .
She was writing — I think you noted this , Amy — many @ @ @ @ @ @ @ opinions .
And her dissent in the Shelby County case , the one that gutted the heart of the Voting Rights Act , that line about doing away with preclearance is like chucking your umbrella because it worked , that got set to music .
And a whole bunch of young women really , I think , constructed this idea that she was in fact not all that different from a rapper , and that she was this icon and that her words needed to be disseminated beyond the four corners of opinions @ @ @ @ @ @ @ point , her Hobby Lobby dissent then was also set to music .
Time and time and time again , things that she did that might have been ignored by mass culture got pushed out under the guise of this is this tiny little woman with the tilted crown .
She is changing the world , not within the auspices of the court — she ’ s writing dissent — but the words that she is giving , particularly to young people and particularly to young women , the language of dissent , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ your words to effect change .
It just became a phenomenon , the likes of which I ’ ve never seen on the court .
AMY GOODMAN : But , Dahlia Lithwick , she certainly wasn ’ t the most progressive member — probably Sonia Sotomayor is .
And in the last years , she sided with the conservative majority when it came to building a natural gas pipeline , when it came to approving the Trump administration ’ s policy of expediting deportation of people seeking asylum , even , well , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s move to take a knee “ dumb.
” DAHLIA LITHWICK : I think that the ways that we misapprehend Ruth Bader Ginsburg are really at the core of what you just said , which is I really truly believe that she was the most small-C conservative radical on the court , and that if you thought she was out on the hustings burning her bra , breaking things down , taking things apart , then you kind of missed the real story , because she was fundamentally a creature of the 1950s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , very much not a ’ 70s radical , certainly not a pink pussy hat radical .
She was someone who , when she was on the D.C .
Circuit Court of Appeals , the lower federal court , aligned her votes with Robert Bork and Antonin Scalia , more than anyone else .
She was fundamentally a moderate centrist , often conservative , jurist .
She was very , very , very much given a knock for not hiring nearly enough minority clerks .
All of that is part of the picture @ @ @ @ @ @ @ American clerk as a Supreme Court justice .
DAHLIA LITHWICK : And I think we have to be very , very honest about the fact that she was both the architect of the gender equality world we live in now and also that she was very , very effective in part because she was a get-along person .
She was very much conciliatory , always cared about decorum , meeting people where they were .
She was both those things , Amy , and I think , in some ways , we have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ AMY GOODMAN : I want to turn to Donald Trump now at the North Carolina rally he held on Saturday , where he said he plans to nominate a woman to replace Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg , and seemed to imply he had until Inauguration Day 2021 .
AMY GOODMAN : So , you can hear the people chanting “ Fill her seat !
Fill her seat !
” Trump now nominating a third justice to a lifetime apartment on the Supreme Court .
If you could talk about what he said he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ some of the top candidates are to fill Ruth Bader Ginsburg ’ s place ?
DAHLIA LITHWICK : I think the single most important thing to do is not waste a lot of our brain cells trying to reconcile the message that he and Mitch McConnell are putting out now with the message that Mitch McConnell put out in 2016 , where , with nine months left to go , they said , “ It ’ s too — way , way , way too late for a president to nominate someone .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ voters decide.
” I think we can agree hypocrisy doesn ’ t begin to touch on that .
And so , then the question is : Can he rush someone through ?
I should just note for your audience that the polling I saw , effective yesterday , said 63 % of the country , including 50 % of Republicans , don ’ t think somebody should be jammed onto the court just in order to fill the seat .
But I guess he ’ s going to press through .
The folks @ @ @ @ @ @ @ has said he wants to nominate a woman , so it ’ s largely women .
Probably the front-runner is Amy Coney Barrett .
He said , when he had her on the shortlist for what ultimately became the Kavanaugh seat , that he was saving her for when he could fill the Ginsburg seat .
So I think she ’ s probably the top contender , and she ’ s also been fully vetted .
She ’ s only 48 years old .
She sits on the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals @ @ @ @ @ @ @ nominees that he ’ s looking at are people in their late forties , early fifties , with very , very , very compressed judicial records .
She ’ s only been on the bench for a couple of years .
But I think it ’ s fair to say that on case after case after case , including abortion , including age discrimination , asylum seekers and guns , she has been on the hard , hard-right side of the fence , often in fact getting disdainful statements from Reagan and Bush @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
The other thing about her is she very , very much has written about how religion informs her judicial thinking .
And when that was raised at her lower court hearings , it was seen as a huge , huge affront .
So , she brings to the table the ability to be deeply religious , and it ’ s impolitic , apparently , to question her about it .
Barbara Lagoa is now on the shortlist .
She ’ s only 52 .
She ’ s on the 11th Circuit .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ who just ruled that all of those taxes and fees that felons need to pay prior to voting is not a poll tax and that that can be enforced , which would disenfranchise thousands and thousands of formerly reenfranchised felons in Florida .
Joan Larsen is probably the third person on the shortlist .
Only — AMY GOODMAN : And just to say , on the issue of Lagoa , she is Cuban American .
She is from the swing state of Florida .
A Latinx swing state person on the Supreme Court @ @ @ @ @ @ @ eyes .
DAHLIA LITHWICK : Would serve him well in Florida .
And also she ’ s a DeSantis acolyte , so I think that that shores up Florida .
Joan Larsen is the last person , 51 years old , on the 6th Circuit .
But I think he ’ s — Trump is still looking at several other very , very young women .
We will know , I guess , as soon as tomorrow who he settles on .
AMY GOODMAN : I wanted to , finally , turn to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and the Senate Democratic Leader Chuck Schumer went to Ruth Bader Ginsburg ’ s high school , which is also Schumer ’ s high school , James Madison in Brooklyn , and urged supporters to call on Senate Republicans not to vote on any Supreme Court nominee .
AMY GOODMAN : That ’ s Congressmember Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez .
It ’ s pretty rare to see her and Chuck Schumer together .
They were by themselves in front of James Madison High School .
But , Dahlia Lithwick , what are those things you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ people deeply concerned about a third Trump appointment to the Supreme Court ?
DAHLIA LITHWICK : I think they have to make noise , and I think that ’ s what she was saying .
I think you led with this .
It ’ s so important .
It can not be the case that Dems have won the popular vote in seven out of the eight elections from 1992 ’ til now , and yet the GOP has appointed 14 out of 18 , now seek 15 out of 19 , Supreme @ @ @ @ @ @ @ — a minority-majority court , because minority-majority presidents and a minority-majority Senate keep ratifying it .
And I think what she ’ s saying is , we have to stop behaving as though the court belongs to the Republicans .
They campaign on it .
They vote on it .
It ’ s a single-minded issue for them .
And Democrats have tended , in the last few election cycles , to not step up , to act as though maybe we just rent seats there occasionally .
The court is so profoundly @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with the will of this country .
And I think the idea that you just accede to that because it ’ s not an issue for Democrats is what is really , really going to have to change .
And so I think she ’ s right .
It means calling your senators .
It means writing the op-eds , writing the letters and really , really signaling to the Senate that votes will move , votes will be lost , seats will be lost , if what is done in the next @ @ @ @ @ @ @ through .
AMY GOODMAN : And the possibility of a Biden administration increasing the number of justices on the court ?
DAHLIA LITHWICK : Well , you heard AOC say it .
I think that none of the structural court reforms that are being floated , whether it ’ s term limits , whether it ’ s adding seats to the lower courts and the Supreme Court , whether it ’ s jurisdiction stripping — there are a lot of really , really thoughtful ideas circulating about how we do structural court reform @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that has absolutely taken a hold in this country .
And I think what she ’ s saying is , we can ’ t be afraid to say there will be consequences if the court is treated as though it ’ s Mitch McConnell and Donald Trump ’ s plaything .
AMY GOODMAN : Dahlia Lithwick , thanks so much for being with us .
And condolences to you , because this is a personal loss , as well , for you , interviewing her just before the COVID lockdown .
Dahlia Lithwick @ @ @ @ @ @ @ legal correspondent and Supreme Court reporter .
Her latest piece , we ’ ll link to , “ What Ruth Bader Ginsburg Would Want America to Do Now.
” When we come back , we turn to one of the directors of the Oscar-nominated documentary RBG , Julie Cohen .
Stay with us .
AMY GOODMAN : “ We Shall Be Known , ” being sung at a Saturday vigil outside the Supreme Court for Ruth Bader Ginsburg .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: We spend the hour looking at the life and legacy of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, as well as the future of the Supreme Court. Ginsburg died on Friday at the age of 87 after serving 27 years as a Supreme Court justice, becoming the most prominent member of the court’s liberal wing.
Ginsburg first gained fame in the 1970s, when she co-founded the Women’s Rights Project at the American Civil Liberties Union, where she argued six gender discrimination cases before the Supreme Court, winning five. She once famously quoted the abolitionist Sarah Grimké during one of her oral arguments.
RUTH BADER GINSBURG: In asking the court to declare sex a suspect criterion, we urge a position forcibly stated in 1837 by Sarah Grimké, noted abolitionist and advocate of equal rights for men and women. She said, “I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.”
AMY GOODMAN: Ruth Bader Ginsburg became a federal appellate judge in 1980, then, in 1993, was sworn in as just the second female Supreme Court justice. During her Senate confirmation hearing, she openly defended the right to have an abortion.
JUDGE RUTH BADER GINSBURG: This is something central to a woman’s life, to her dignity. It’s a decision that she must make for herself. And when government controls that decision for her, she’s being treated as less than a fully adult human responsible for her own choices.
AMY GOODMAN: The Senate confirmed Ginsburg 96 to 3.
As a Supreme Court justice, she was a strong supporter of reproductive rights, women’s rights, expanding LGBTQ rights and preserving President Obama’s Affordable Care Act.
Some of Ginsburg’s most memorable opinions were dissents. In 2013, she dissented when the court struck down a key section of the Voting Rights Act. She wrote, quote, “Throwing out preclearance when it has worked and is continuing to work to stop discriminatory changes is like throwing away your umbrella in a rainstorm because you are not getting wet,” unquote.
While Ginsburg was known to be a leader on the court’s liberal wing, she sometimes sided with her conservative colleagues. She joined the conservative majority approving a natural gas pipeline being built under the Appalachian Trail. She also approved the Trump administration’s policy of expediting deportation of people seeking asylum.
Ginsburg’s death has set off a battle in Washington. She died on September 18, just 46 days before the November election. In 2016, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell refused to hold confirmation hearings for Merrick Garland, President Obama’s pick to replace Justice Antonin Scalia, who died nearly nine months before the election. At the time, McConnell said, quote, “The American people should have a voice in the selection of their next Supreme Court justice.” But now McConnell has vowed to hold a vote on Trump’s pick to replace Ginsburg, setting off a battle in the Senate, where the Republicans maintain a 53-to-47 advantage. The Democrats need 51 votes to block a potential nominee. Two Republican senators, Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins, have already said they oppose voting on Ginsburg’s replacement before the election.
President Trump is expected to nominate a replacement for Ginsburg as soon as Tuesday. Top contenders include federal judges Barbara Lagoa and Amy Coney Barrett. If the Senate confirms Trump’s nominee, it will give conservatives a 6-to-3 advantage on the court. It would also mean the majority of the justices on the court were selected by presidents that did not win the popular vote.
Days before she died, Justice Ginsburg [dictated] a final statement to her granddaughter. It read, quote, “My most fervent wish is that I will not be replaced until a new president is installed,” unquote.
Over the weekend, vigils were held outside the Supreme Court and across the country to remember Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
Later in the program, we’ll be joined by a man Ginsburg once called her favorite plaintiff, and we’ll be joined by Julie Cohen, co-director of the Oscar-nominated documentary RBG. But we begin today’s show with Dahlia Lithwick. She’s senior legal correspondent at Slate.com, her latest piece headlined “What Ruth Bader Ginsburg Would Want America to Do Now.”
Well, Dahlia, welcome to Democracy Now! Thanks so much for joining us. I know this is a deeply painful day to you both personally and politically. Talk about how you came to know Justice Ginsburg, what she meant to you, and then what you think about what’s happening today.
DAHLIA LITHWICK: Thanks, Amy. And thanks for having me.
I got to know her, actually, latish in my career. I had been covering the court for some time, and Justice Ginsburg gave an interview to The Wall Street Journal's Jess Bravin, and he asked her who she read. And she named a couple people, and then she said, “Oh, I read that girl at Slate, Dahlia Lithwick.” And then she called me “spicy.” And I think she liked the fact that I was irreverent. And shortly after that, I got to interview her for the first time when Glamour named her their woman of the year, and she gave me an amazing interview. And then, just most recently, I got to sit down with her actually in late January, right before the court shut down for COVID. I got to spend an hour with her just talking about her experience being one of nine women who started at Harvard Law school in a class of 500 men. And so, I've just been incredibly blessed in my connections to her.
And, you know, as to what she meant to me, I mean, I started law school just as she was being elevated to the bench. And I think I can say, with great confidence, that had I not seen Sandra Day O’Connor and Ruth Bader Ginsburg on the Supreme Court, I would not, probably, have felt that there was a place for me at law school. I know thousands and thousands of women feel the same. And then, simply as a marker of what a woman can do, who at every turn is faced with closed doors, lost opportunities, unbelievable discrimination, and how at every turn she took that, turned it around and turned it into another success. I just think the arc of her life, Amy, has been to fight for the women who came after and to bear the responsibility of the women who came before who couldn’t finish the fight.
AMY GOODMAN: So, talk about what you feel are her most important contributions.
DAHLIA LITHWICK: Well, I think you’ve identified — I think she sort of has three acts in America. The first is her unbelievable litigation career. At the Women’s Rights Project at the ACLU, she almost single-handedly became the architect of a series of what looked to be small, incremental cases that fought consistently to do away with gender discrimination as built in the law. And, of course, the genius of those cases — I know you’re going to talk about this later — is that she would bring them on behalf of men, not women, but men who were subject to discriminatory laws because the law assumed that men went out to work and women stayed home as caregivers. And she built, slowly, the same way Thurgood Marshall built in the world of race equality, one case after another after another that dismantled that patriarchal view of the world. And so, there’s that piece of it, which is the legal career that ends up really enforcing the idea of equality under the Constitution.
Then there’s her time on the court and the enormous series of cases she both authored and later dissented in, where she put that into effect, most famously when the Virginia Military Institute — she forced them to accept women cadets, writing that it is discriminatory to assume that women cadets can’t go to that school — changed the landscape forever.
And then, I think, this third act, which we really only saw in the last decade, where she became this tiny, five-foot, less-than-a-hundred-pound rockstar, when she became “Notorious RBG,” and everyone had a tote bag, and everybody had the earrings, and everybody knew her dissents by heart. She became larger than life, certainly larger than one associate justice on the court. And I think she just became a symbol, particularly in the last four years, for women who felt powerless and hopeless, that you don’t get to feel powerless and hopeless. You just keep fighting.
AMY GOODMAN: And how she became “The Notorious RBG”?
DAHLIA LITHWICK: It came from, you know, toward the end of her career. She was writing — I think you noted this, Amy — many more dissents than she was writing majority opinions. And her dissent in the Shelby County case, the one that gutted the heart of the Voting Rights Act, that line about doing away with preclearance is like chucking your umbrella because it worked, that got set to music. And a whole bunch of young women really, I think, constructed this idea that she was in fact not all that different from a rapper, and that she was this icon and that her words needed to be disseminated beyond the four corners of opinions out into the world. At that point, her Hobby Lobby dissent then was also set to music.
Time and time and time again, things that she did that might have been ignored by mass culture got pushed out under the guise of this is this tiny little woman with the tilted crown. She is changing the world, not within the auspices of the court — she’s writing dissent — but the words that she is giving, particularly to young people and particularly to young women, the language of dissent, the language of using the law and your words to effect change. It just became a phenomenon, the likes of which I’ve never seen on the court.
AMY GOODMAN: But, Dahlia Lithwick, she certainly wasn’t the most progressive member — probably Sonia Sotomayor is. And in the last years, she sided with the conservative majority when it came to building a natural gas pipeline, when it came to approving the Trump administration’s policy of expediting deportation of people seeking asylum, even, well, ultimately apologized for calling Colin Kaepernick’s move to take a knee “dumb.”
DAHLIA LITHWICK: I think that the ways that we misapprehend Ruth Bader Ginsburg are really at the core of what you just said, which is I really truly believe that she was the most small-C conservative radical on the court, and that if you thought she was out on the hustings burning her bra, breaking things down, taking things apart, then you kind of missed the real story, because she was fundamentally a creature of the 1950s and ’60s. She was very, very much not a ’70s radical, certainly not a pink pussy hat radical.
She was someone who, when she was on the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals, the lower federal court, aligned her votes with Robert Bork and Antonin Scalia, more than anyone else. She was fundamentally a moderate centrist, often conservative, jurist. She was very, very, very much given a knock for not hiring nearly enough minority clerks. All of that is part of the picture.
AMY GOODMAN: Had one African American clerk as a Supreme Court justice.
DAHLIA LITHWICK: And I think we have to be very, very honest about the fact that she was both the architect of the gender equality world we live in now and also that she was very, very effective in part because she was a get-along person. She was very much conciliatory, always cared about decorum, meeting people where they were. She was both those things, Amy, and I think, in some ways, we have to respect both parts of it.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to turn to Donald Trump now at the North Carolina rally he held on Saturday, where he said he plans to nominate a woman to replace Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and seemed to imply he had until Inauguration Day 2021.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Both the White House and the Senate majority have a moral duty to fulfill the promises they made to the voters. And that is exactly what we’re going to do. We said that if, for any reason, we have a vacancy on the United States Supreme Court, we will fill that vacancy. We’re not going to say — and, by the way, we have plenty of time. There’s a lot of time. You know, you’re talking about — you’re talking about January 20th, right?
TRUMP SUPPORTERS: Fill her seat! Fill her seat! Fill her seat! Fill her seat!
AMY GOODMAN: So, you can hear the people chanting “Fill her seat! Fill her seat!” Trump now nominating a third justice to a lifetime apartment on the Supreme Court. If you could talk about what he said he’s going to do, who some of the top candidates are to fill Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s place?
DAHLIA LITHWICK: I think the single most important thing to do is not waste a lot of our brain cells trying to reconcile the message that he and Mitch McConnell are putting out now with the message that Mitch McConnell put out in 2016, where, with nine months left to go, they said, “It’s too — way, way, way too late for a president to nominate someone. We’re going to let the voters decide.” I think we can agree hypocrisy doesn’t begin to touch on that.
And so, then the question is: Can he rush someone through? I should just note for your audience that the polling I saw, effective yesterday, said 63% of the country, including 50% of Republicans, don’t think somebody should be jammed onto the court just in order to fill the seat. But I guess he’s going to press through.
The folks who are on the shortlist, he has said he wants to nominate a woman, so it’s largely women. Probably the front-runner is Amy Coney Barrett. He said, when he had her on the shortlist for what ultimately became the Kavanaugh seat, that he was saving her for when he could fill the Ginsburg seat. So I think she’s probably the top contender, and she’s also been fully vetted. She’s only 48 years old. She sits on the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals. And I think all of the nominees that he’s looking at are people in their late forties, early fifties, with very, very, very compressed judicial records. She’s only been on the bench for a couple of years. But I think it’s fair to say that on case after case after case, including abortion, including age discrimination, asylum seekers and guns, she has been on the hard, hard-right side of the fence, often in fact getting disdainful statements from Reagan and Bush appointees about how radical her worldview is. The other thing about her is she very, very much has written about how religion informs her judicial thinking. And when that was raised at her lower court hearings, it was seen as a huge, huge affront. So, she brings to the table the ability to be deeply religious, and it’s impolitic, apparently, to question her about it.
Barbara Lagoa is now on the shortlist. She’s only 52. She’s on the 11th Circuit. She’s one of the judges who just ruled that all of those taxes and fees that felons need to pay prior to voting is not a poll tax and that that can be enforced, which would disenfranchise thousands and thousands of formerly reenfranchised felons in Florida.
Joan Larsen is probably the third person on the shortlist. Only —
AMY GOODMAN: And just to say, on the issue of Lagoa, she is Cuban American. She is from the swing state of Florida. A Latinx swing state person on the Supreme Court would serve President Trump, in his eyes.
DAHLIA LITHWICK: Would serve him well in Florida. And also she’s a DeSantis acolyte, so I think that that shores up Florida.
Joan Larsen is the last person, 51 years old, on the 6th Circuit. But I think he’s — Trump is still looking at several other very, very young women. We will know, I guess, as soon as tomorrow who he settles on.
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to, finally, turn to Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. On Sunday, she and the Senate Democratic Leader Chuck Schumer went to Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s high school, which is also Schumer’s high school, James Madison in Brooklyn, and urged supporters to call on Senate Republicans not to vote on any Supreme Court nominee.
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ: We must use every tool at our disposal, from everyday people, especially in swing states. We need everyday people to call on senators, to call on folks on the bubble, to call Republican senators, to make sure that they hold us vacancy open. And we must also commit to using every procedural tool available to us to ensure that we buy ourselves the time necessary.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s Congressmember Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. It’s pretty rare to see her and Chuck Schumer together. They were by themselves in front of James Madison High School. But, Dahlia Lithwick, what are those things you think could be done right now for people deeply concerned about a third Trump appointment to the Supreme Court?
DAHLIA LITHWICK: I think they have to make noise, and I think that’s what she was saying. I think you led with this. It’s so important. It cannot be the case that Dems have won the popular vote in seven out of the eight elections from 1992 ’til now, and yet the GOP has appointed 14 out of 18, now seek 15 out of 19, Supreme Court seats. It is a majority — a minority-majority court, because minority-majority presidents and a minority-majority Senate keep ratifying it.
And I think what she’s saying is, we have to stop behaving as though the court belongs to the Republicans. They campaign on it. They vote on it. It’s a single-minded issue for them. And Democrats have tended, in the last few election cycles, to not step up, to act as though maybe we just rent seats there occasionally. The court is so profoundly misaligned both with popular opinion polling and with the will of this country. And I think the idea that you just accede to that because it’s not an issue for Democrats is what is really, really going to have to change.
And so I think she’s right. It means calling your senators. It means writing the op-eds, writing the letters and really, really signaling to the Senate that votes will move, votes will be lost, seats will be lost, if what is done in the next couple of weeks is allowed to go through.
AMY GOODMAN: And the possibility of a Biden administration increasing the number of justices on the court?
DAHLIA LITHWICK: Well, you heard AOC say it. I think that none of the structural court reforms that are being floated, whether it’s term limits, whether it’s adding seats to the lower courts and the Supreme Court, whether it’s jurisdiction stripping — there are a lot of really, really thoughtful ideas circulating about how we do structural court reform to kind of reverse the minority-majority rule that has absolutely taken a hold in this country. And I think what she’s saying is, we can’t be afraid to say there will be consequences if the court is treated as though it’s Mitch McConnell and Donald Trump’s plaything.
AMY GOODMAN: Dahlia Lithwick, thanks so much for being with us. And condolences to you, because this is a personal loss, as well, for you, interviewing her just before the COVID lockdown. Dahlia Lithwick, senior editor at Slate.com, senior legal correspondent and Supreme Court reporter. Her latest piece, we’ll link to, “What Ruth Bader Ginsburg Would Want America to Do Now.”
When we come back, we turn to one of the directors of the Oscar-nominated documentary RBG, Julie Cohen. Stay with us.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: “We Shall Be Known,” being sung at a Saturday vigil outside the Supreme Court for Ruth Bader Ginsburg.


democracynow--2020-09-21--Headlines for September 21, 2020

Headlines for September 21, 2020

Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg has died at the age of 87 .
She passed away Friday at her home in Washington , D.C. , surrounded by family , after succumbing to complications from pancreatic cancer .
Ginsburg served on the Supreme Court for 27 years .
She was just the second woman to join the court , after she was appointed by Bill Clinton in 1993 .
She was the most prominent member of the court ’ s liberal wing , a strong supporter of reproductive rights , women ’ s rights , expanding LGBT rights and preserving President Obama @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s death came just 46 days before the November election , setting off a fierce succession battle and sparking fears over the future of Roe v Wade .
Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell has vowed to hold a vote on a new justice , even though he refused to hold confirmation hearings in 2016 for President Obama ’ s nominee , Merrick Garland , after Justice Antonin Scalia died .
Days before her death , Ginsburg dictated a final statement to her granddaughter .
It read , “ My most fervent wish @ @ @ @ @ @ @ until a new president is installed.
” If the Senate confirms Trump ’ s nominee , it will give conservatives a 6-to-3 advantage on the court .
In 2017 , Ruther Bader Ginsburg spoke to the BBC about the current state of the U.S. , and its future .
Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg : “ I am optimistic , long run .
A great man once said that the true symbol of the United States is not the bald eagle , it is the pendulum .
And when the pendulum swings too far @ @ @ @ @ @ @ back.
” Mourners paid tribute to Ginsburg around the country with vigils and gatherings .
A makeshift memorial formed in front of the Supreme Court .

Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg has died at the age of 87. She passed away Friday at her home in Washington, D.C., surrounded by family, after succumbing to complications from pancreatic cancer.
Ginsburg served on the Supreme Court for 27 years. She was just the second woman to join the court, after she was appointed by Bill Clinton in 1993. She was the most prominent member of the court’s liberal wing, a strong supporter of reproductive rights, women’s rights, expanding LGBT rights and preserving President Obama’s Affordable Care Act.
Ginsburg’s death came just 46 days before the November election, setting off a fierce succession battle and sparking fears over the future of Roe v Wade. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell has vowed to hold a vote on a new justice, even though he refused to hold confirmation hearings in 2016 for President Obama’s nominee, Merrick Garland, after Justice Antonin Scalia died.
Days before her death, Ginsburg dictated a final statement to her granddaughter. It read, “My most fervent wish is that I will not be replaced until a new president is installed.”
If the Senate confirms Trump’s nominee, it will give conservatives a 6-to-3 advantage on the court. In 2017, Ruther Bader Ginsburg spoke to the BBC about the current state of the U.S., and its future.
Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg: “I am optimistic, long run. A great man once said that the true symbol of the United States is not the bald eagle, it is the pendulum. And when the pendulum swings too far in one direction, it will go back.”
Mourners paid tribute to Ginsburg around the country with vigils and gatherings. A makeshift memorial formed in front of the Supreme Court.


democracynow--2020-09-22--"Belly of the Beast": Survivors of Forced Sterilizations in California's Prisons Fight for Justice

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
The Quarantine Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman , with Juan González .
The horrific exposure of forced hysterectomies at an ICE jail in Georgia has forced a reckoning with the U.S. ’ s long history of sterilizations — particularly of Black , Brown , poor and disabled people — and the way this procedure has continued in jails and prisons to the present day .
We ’ ll go now to California , where a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ disturbing stories to light .
In 2001 , Kelli Dillon was sterilized at the Central California Women ’ s Facility in Chowchilla .
The mother of two in her early twenties was told she was going into surgery for ovarian cysts .
She later learned she had been given a hysterectomy .
Dillon was not alone .
According to a report from Reveal at The Center for Investigative Reporting , between 2006 and ’ 10 , the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation sterilized nearly 150 women without required state approval .
Prison @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they thought were likely to return to prison .
Up to a hundred more may have undergone the same treatment as far back as 1997 .
The revelations were a chilling reminder of the 20th century eugenics program , in which 32 states , including California , forcibly sterilized people — many poor , disabled and people of color — for decades .
In 2006 , Kelli Dillon became the first survivor of sterilization abuse to sue the California Department of Corrections for damages .
Belly of the Beast tells her story and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of California accountable .
This is the film ’ s trailer .
AMY GOODMAN : That ’ s the trailer for Belly of the Beast .
We ’ re joined now by Kelli Dillon herself , whose fight against the California Department of Corrections is the subject of Belly of the Beast , also the founder of community empowerment organization Back to Basics in Los Angeles .
And in Salt Lake City , Utah , we ’ re joined by the film ’ s director , Erika Cohn .
We welcome you both @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , let ’ s begin with you .
Go back to 2006 .
Again , you became the first survivor of sterilization abuse to sue the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation for damages .
In 2014 , California banned coerced sterilizations , and many people say it ’ s largely because of what you started in 2006 .
Take us back to when you were imprisoned and what happened to you .
KELLI DILLON : As I ’ m sitting here listening to the stories that Dawn Wooten is expressing about some @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , those stories ring so parallel to my story of what was happening .
I was 19 years old when I was first sent to prison .
And at the age of 23 , I had some regular , you know , I will say , female issues that I was seeking out the doctor for .
And then I was told that I had an abnormal Pap smear and that I would need a cone biopsy to check that out .
And so I agreed to it .
And we discussed cancer @ @ @ @ @ @ @ discussed that if they found cancer , would I want a hysterectomy ?
I was young at the time , very much uneducated , didn ’ t really know the procedures or any other medical options .
And I was scared of cancer , like most of us are .
And I said , “ OK , yes , if you find cancer , then you could perform the hysterectomy.
” But when he went in to do the cone biopsy and to also remove what they say possibly was some cysts , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to my ovaries and then began to perform what was a sterilization on me .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : And , Kelli , when — how soon afterwards did you realize that something was wrong with what they had done to you ?
And could you tell us about what it was like to trace back the sequence of events of what they had done to you ?
KELLI DILLON : Yes .
So , you know , I tell people that , spiritually , of course we feel connected to certain things .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ , I just felt like , OK — number one , I was scared if I had cancer , but then I just felt different .
Just in the days of recovery , it just felt like something wasn ’ t right .
But I didn ’ t pay it any attention .
I just thought maybe it was just my nerves .
And when the doctor came in and told me that he didn ’ t find any cancer , didn ’ t tell me anything else , you know , I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ months after that , I began to experience menopausal symptoms at the age of 24 .
I had hot flashes , heart palpitations and just different things that was happening to me .
And I said , “ No , something has to be going on.
” And when I began to question or write the staff in the prison to see , well , what happened to me , to get some answers as to what happened in surgery , they began to start giving me the runaround .
So , actually @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of an agency called Justice Now and a social activist attorney by the name of Cynthia Chandler , who ’ s also in the film — it took us about a year or so for us to get my medical records , to actually fight , to write , to almost sue them just for the medical records .
And when I finally got them , she was the one who told me , as she read through the medical records , that I had been intentionally sterilized .
And that ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ need to know , is that we don ’ t have access to that medical information .
And it ’ s withheld , even though to everyone else it just may seem like a privilege to ask for a copy of a procedure that happened to you .
But for us , we are withheld that information .
And if we begin to press , as you guys discussed in the ICE detention center , we are reprimanded and also sometimes put in lockdown or different situations .
We ’ re punished to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ GONZÁLEZ : Yeah , and in terms of the — why did you finally decide to come forward and talk about your experience ?
KELLI DILLON : Yes .
It took a lot of nerve for me to even first sue them for what had happened while still incarcerated .
I had received a lot of different threats from the medical staff , the chief medical officer , as well as some of the correctional officers that was in there , about the repercussions that I will face if I continue on in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , like : What would you do if you found out that something like this would happen to you ?
And I just felt like I could not allow CDC to continue on .
But the real press of me wanting to seek justice had a lot to do with the fact that I had begun to see other women that was around my age , around childbearing age , of between maybe 24 to 35 years of age , coming back with all of these hysterectomies .
And even though we didn @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the uterus collector , ” like that doctor is coined in Georgia , but I began to see that , well , what is happening , that mostly African American women or women of color come in very healthy , strong , childbearing women , and then all of a sudden we need all of these hysterectomies .
And so , for that — the fight wasn ’ t just for me .
The fight was also for my sisters that I had saw that had been wronged , as well .
It @ @ @ @ @ @ @ privilege of having an actual legal team to assist me in the journey .
AMY GOODMAN : I want to go to another clip from the new documentary , Belly of the Beast .
AMY GOODMAN : So , that ’ s a clip from Belly of the Beast .
And we want to bring in the film ’ s director , Erika Cohn .
Erika , through your research , you determined that between 1997 and 2013 , over 1,400 sterilizations were performed .
Can you talk about this shocking figure and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you ’ ve spent on this documentary ?
ERIKA COHN : Thank you so much for having me .
We calculated that — between California state audit and prison records , that nearly , as you mentioned , 1,400 sterilization procedures occurred between 1997 and 2013 .
And since 2014 , since a bill was passed in California rendering sterilization for the purpose of birth control illegal — which I think it ’ s important to know it was already illegal , according to state , federal and international law — California is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ procedures performed each year , and prove medical necessity around each procedure .
And , you know , one of the ways that California was able to find a loophole around these procedures previously was because they were able to classify them as medically necessary , when we know , in many instances , these procedures actually were not medically necessary .
And so , I believe that accountability , holding our institutions accountable , is the only way that we can prevent future abuses like these from happening .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , these situations happening in the last 20 years , there ’ s actually a much longer history of this .
For instance , it ’ s been well documented that in Puerto Rico in the late 1940s and 1950s , there was a systemic sterilization of women of childbearing age .
Estimates about one-third of all women of childbearing age in Puerto Rico were sterilized during that period , again , as a family planning or birth control system without any kind of explanation to the women of what was actually happening @ @ @ @ @ @ @ until the 1970s or '80s as a requirement .
So there 's been a long history in this country of this type of oppression of women , hasn ’ t there ?
ERIKA COHN : Absolutely , yes .
Forced sterilization is genocide .
And the legacy of forced sterilization in the United States is deeply rooted in white supremacy .
And my actual connection to the story comes from that eugenics history .
You know , I was first introduced to Cynthia Chandler in 2010 , the attorney who ’ s featured @ @ @ @ @ @ @ friend .
And I was really inspired by her work at Justice Now , specifically the Let Our Families Have a Future campaign , which really exposed the multiple ways that prisons destroy the basic human rights of family , one of the most heinous being the illegal sterilizations primarily targeting women of color .
And as a Jewish woman who grew up in Salt Lake City 25 years ago , the phrase “ Never again ” was always profoundly in the back of my mind .
And when I learned there was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ imprisonment , through forced sterilization behind bars , I knew that I wanted to get involved .
And initially it was by becoming a volunteer with Justice Now , and later becoming a volunteer legal advocate working with over 150 people who were incarcerated in California ’ s women ’ s prisons .
And as you see in the film and as you ’ re talking about , that history of eugenics in the United States is not something that we talk about a lot .
When we hear the word “ eugenics @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
We think of the Holocaust .
But , actually , what we don ’ t talk about is the founding of the eugenics movement in the United States and actually how Nazi Germany came to California to learn from our eugenics leaders to take our policies and practices back .
AMY GOODMAN : We ’ re going to leave it there but do Part 2 and have a continued conversation with you .
I do want to give Kelli the last word .
You have 10 seconds .
What would justice look @ @ @ @ @ @ @ So , right now we have a petition that ’ s on www.BellyOfTheBeastFilm.org — I mean dotcom , excuse me — and what we ’ re trying to do is seek compensation , in order to — all the survivors to not only be identified , but to be notified , because there ’ s a lot of hidden victims .
And so , we ’ re looking for compensation for not only the survivors , but for the ones that are unknown , as well .
AMY GOODMAN : Kelli Dillon , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
As well , thank you to Erika Cohn , director of Belly of the Beast .
I ’ m Amy Goodman , with Juan González .
Thanks so much .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now! The Quarantine Report. I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan González.
The horrific exposure of forced hysterectomies at an ICE jail in Georgia has forced a reckoning with the U.S.’s long history of sterilizations — particularly of Black, Brown, poor and disabled people — and the way this procedure has continued in jails and prisons to the present day.
We’ll go now to California, where a new documentary is bringing one of these disturbing stories to light. In 2001, Kelli Dillon was sterilized at the Central California Women’s Facility in Chowchilla. The mother of two in her early twenties was told she was going into surgery for ovarian cysts. She later learned she had been given a hysterectomy.
Dillon was not alone. According to a report from Reveal at The Center for Investigative Reporting, between 2006 and ’10, the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation sterilized nearly 150 women without required state approval. Prison staff reportedly targeted and coerced women who they thought were likely to return to prison. Up to a hundred more may have undergone the same treatment as far back as 1997. The revelations were a chilling reminder of the 20th century eugenics program, in which 32 states, including California, forcibly sterilized people — many poor, disabled and people of color — for decades.
In 2006, Kelli Dillon became the first survivor of sterilization abuse to sue the California Department of Corrections for damages. Belly of the Beast tells her story and chronicles her fight to hold the state of California accountable. This is the film’s trailer.
COREY JOHNSON: There is a culture of secrecy in California.
SURVIVOR 1: I have some fear. What kind of repercussions will I get for coming on and talking about this?
KELLI DILLON: I always been a fighter. But it wasn’t truly birthed until I was in prison.
SURVIVOR 2: They did a pelvic exam.
SURVIVOR 3: He said I had a fibroid.
SURVIVOR 4: I was told that I had cancer cells.
KELLI DILLON: When I came out, I felt like something was wrong.
ROBIN LEVI: We were getting hundreds of letters about medical abuses every month.
INTERVIEWER: When was the first time a doctor told you that you may be missing your ovaries?
KELLI DILLON: No one ever told me that.
I have been intentionally sterilized, and I have been lied to.
CYNTHIA CHANDLER: The law prohibits sterilizing people in prison for the purpose of birth control. But they were doing it anyway.
COREY JOHNSON: One of the challenges with this story is you ultimately have to get to intent. And then that’s when the doctor said, “Well, that’s cheaper than welfare.”
KELLI DILLON: I was looking at these documents, that was confirming, as a Black woman, my life wasn’t [bleep].
PROTESTERS: No more abuse! No more abuse! No more abuse! No more abuse!
KELLI DILLON: I was very much intimidated by whom I was going up against.
CYNTHIA CHANDLER: The state has admitted that they have done these illegal surgeries, but we don’t actually know who they did them on.
UNIDENTIFIED: Inmates become numbers. They don’t get names. And that’s what makes it easy to abuse them.
SEN. HANNAH-BETH JACKSON: Women in California being coercively sterilized is absolutely revolting.
KELLI DILLON: We have yet to get an apology. We have yet to be acknowledged. The state has to be made accountable.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s the trailer for Belly of the Beast. We’re joined now by Kelli Dillon herself, whose fight against the California Department of Corrections is the subject of Belly of the Beast, also the founder of community empowerment organization Back to Basics in Los Angeles. And in Salt Lake City, Utah, we’re joined by the film’s director, Erika Cohn.
We welcome you both to Democracy Now! Well, Kelli, let’s begin with you. Go back to 2006. Again, you became the first survivor of sterilization abuse to sue the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation for damages. In 2014, California banned coerced sterilizations, and many people say it’s largely because of what you started in 2006. Take us back to when you were imprisoned and what happened to you.
KELLI DILLON: As I’m sitting here listening to the stories that Dawn Wooten is expressing about some of the detainees in the ICE facility, those stories ring so parallel to my story of what was happening.
I was 19 years old when I was first sent to prison. And at the age of 23, I had some regular, you know, I will say, female issues that I was seeking out the doctor for. And then I was told that I had an abnormal Pap smear and that I would need a cone biopsy to check that out. And so I agreed to it.
And we discussed cancer. Me and the doctor, we discussed that if they found cancer, would I want a hysterectomy? I was young at the time, very much uneducated, didn’t really know the procedures or any other medical options. And I was scared of cancer, like most of us are. And I said, “OK, yes, if you find cancer, then you could perform the hysterectomy.”
But when he went in to do the cone biopsy and to also remove what they say possibly was some cysts, he intentionally cut off the blood supply to my ovaries and then began to perform what was a sterilization on me.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Kelli, when — how soon afterwards did you realize that something was wrong with what they had done to you? And could you tell us about what it was like to trace back the sequence of events of what they had done to you?
KELLI DILLON: Yes. So, you know, I tell people that, spiritually, of course we feel connected to certain things. And immediately coming out of the surgery, I just felt like, OK — number one, I was scared if I had cancer, but then I just felt different. Just in the days of recovery, it just felt like something wasn’t right. But I didn’t pay it any attention. I just thought maybe it was just my nerves. And when the doctor came in and told me that he didn’t find any cancer, didn’t tell me anything else, you know, I was relieved.
But then, several months after that, I began to experience menopausal symptoms at the age of 24. I had hot flashes, heart palpitations and just different things that was happening to me. And I said, “No, something has to be going on.” And when I began to question or write the staff in the prison to see, well, what happened to me, to get some answers as to what happened in surgery, they began to start giving me the runaround.
So, actually, it took, with the help of an agency called Justice Now and a social activist attorney by the name of Cynthia Chandler, who’s also in the film — it took us about a year or so for us to get my medical records, to actually fight, to write, to almost sue them just for the medical records. And when I finally got them, she was the one who told me, as she read through the medical records, that I had been intentionally sterilized.
And that’s something, you know, that people need to know, is that we don’t have access to that medical information. And it’s withheld, even though to everyone else it just may seem like a privilege to ask for a copy of a procedure that happened to you. But for us, we are withheld that information. And if we begin to press, as you guys discussed in the ICE detention center, we are reprimanded and also sometimes put in lockdown or different situations. We’re punished to go after those medical records.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Yeah, and in terms of the — why did you finally decide to come forward and talk about your experience?
KELLI DILLON: Yes. It took a lot of nerve for me to even first sue them for what had happened while still incarcerated. I had received a lot of different threats from the medical staff, the chief medical officer, as well as some of the correctional officers that was in there, about the repercussions that I will face if I continue on in my lawsuit. But the question is, like: What would you do if you found out that something like this would happen to you? And I just felt like I could not allow CDC to continue on.
But the real press of me wanting to seek justice had a lot to do with the fact that I had begun to see other women that was around my age, around childbearing age, of between maybe 24 to 35 years of age, coming back with all of these hysterectomies. And even though we didn’t say that they were “the uterus collector,” like that doctor is coined in Georgia, but I began to see that, well, what is happening, that mostly African American women or women of color come in very healthy, strong, childbearing women, and then all of a sudden we need all of these hysterectomies. And so, for that — the fight wasn’t just for me. The fight was also for my sisters that I had saw that had been wronged, as well. It’s just that I had the privilege of having an actual legal team to assist me in the journey.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to go to another clip from the new documentary, Belly of the Beast.
SURVIVOR 1: You gave me a hysterectomy for severe cramps.
SURVIVOR 2: They did a pelvic exam.
SURVIVOR 3: He gave me some kind of a test and said I had some — a fibroid.
SURVIVOR 4: I was told that I had cancer cells.
SURVIVOR 5: They told me that I had to have my ovaries removed. I had no choice.
SURVIVOR 4: We actually need to call them the surgeries of the month, because they were happening so frequently. So many people were getting hysterectomies. That was a cure-all. That’s what it was.
AMY GOODMAN: So, that’s a clip from Belly of the Beast. And we want to bring in the film’s director, Erika Cohn. Erika, through your research, you determined that between 1997 and 2013, over 1,400 sterilizations were performed. Can you talk about this shocking figure and the work you did, the years you’ve spent on this documentary?
ERIKA COHN: Thank you so much for having me.
We calculated that — between California state audit and prison records, that nearly, as you mentioned, 1,400 sterilization procedures occurred between 1997 and 2013. And since 2014, since a bill was passed in California rendering sterilization for the purpose of birth control illegal — which I think it’s important to know it was already illegal, according to state, federal and international law — California is required to report the number of sterilization procedures performed each year, and prove medical necessity around each procedure. And, you know, one of the ways that California was able to find a loophole around these procedures previously was because they were able to classify them as medically necessary, when we know, in many instances, these procedures actually were not medically necessary. And so, I believe that accountability, holding our institutions accountable, is the only way that we can prevent future abuses like these from happening.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Erika Cohn, of course, these situations happening in the last 20 years, there’s actually a much longer history of this. For instance, it’s been well documented that in Puerto Rico in the late 1940s and 1950s, there was a systemic sterilization of women of childbearing age. Estimates about one-third of all women of childbearing age in Puerto Rico were sterilized during that period, again, as a family planning or birth control system without any kind of explanation to the women of what was actually happening. Informed consent didn’t come until the 1970s or '80s as a requirement. So there's been a long history in this country of this type of oppression of women, hasn’t there?
ERIKA COHN: Absolutely, yes. Forced sterilization is genocide. And the legacy of forced sterilization in the United States is deeply rooted in white supremacy. And my actual connection to the story comes from that eugenics history.
You know, I was first introduced to Cynthia Chandler in 2010, the attorney who’s featured in the film, through a mutual friend. And I was really inspired by her work at Justice Now, specifically the Let Our Families Have a Future campaign, which really exposed the multiple ways that prisons destroy the basic human rights of family, one of the most heinous being the illegal sterilizations primarily targeting women of color. And as a Jewish woman who grew up in Salt Lake City 25 years ago, the phrase “Never again” was always profoundly in the back of my mind. And when I learned there was a different kind of genocide happening through imprisonment, through forced sterilization behind bars, I knew that I wanted to get involved. And initially it was by becoming a volunteer with Justice Now, and later becoming a volunteer legal advocate working with over 150 people who were incarcerated in California’s women’s prisons.
And as you see in the film and as you’re talking about, that history of eugenics in the United States is not something that we talk about a lot. When we hear the word “eugenics,” we think of Nazi Germany. We think of the Holocaust. But, actually, what we don’t talk about is the founding of the eugenics movement in the United States and actually how Nazi Germany came to California to learn from our eugenics leaders to take our policies and practices back.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to —
ERIKA COHN: And so, historic —
AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to leave it there but do Part 2 and have a continued conversation with you. I do want to give Kelli the last word. You have 10 seconds. What would justice look like for you?
KELLI DILLON: So, right now we have a petition that’s on www.BellyOfTheBeastFilm.org — I mean dotcom, excuse me — and what we’re trying to do is seek compensation, in order to — all the survivors to not only be identified, but to be notified, because there’s a lot of hidden victims. And so, we’re looking for compensation for not only the survivors, but for the ones that are unknown, as well.
AMY GOODMAN: Kelli Dillon, thanks so much for being with us. As well, thank you to Erika Cohn, director of Belly of the Beast. I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan González. Thanks so much.