democracynow--2020-08-13--Was Kamala Harris a Progressive Prosecutor? A Look at Her Time as a DA & California Attorney General

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : We continue to discuss Joe Biden ’ s historic Democratic vice-presidential running mate , California Senator Kamala Harris , the first woman of color on a major party ticket , as we examine her record as a prosecutor in California , when she proudly billed herself as “ top cop ” and called for more cops on the street .
In 2004 , Harris became district attorney of San Francisco .
She held the post until 2011 , when she became the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Gray , the former national press secretary for Bernie Sanders 2020 , tweeted , quote , “ We are in the midst of the largest protest movement in American history , the subject of which is excessive policing , and the Democratic Party chose a 'top cop ' and the author of the Joe Biden crime bill to save us from Trump .
The contempt for the base is , wow.
” Well , for more , we ’ re joined by two people .
We go to San Francisco to look at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Bazelon is a professor at the University of San Francisco School of Law , director of the school ’ s Criminal and Juvenile Justice and Racial Justice Law Clinics .
She wrote a New York Times op-ed last year headlined “ Kamala Harris Was Not a 'Progressive Prosecutor . '
” But also joining us is Niki Solis .
She is a San Francisco deputy public defender , who ’ s written a piece for USA Today headlined “ I worked with Kamala Harris .
She was the most progressive DA in California.
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ Now !
We ’ re going to begin right now with Niki Solis , who ’ s San Francisco ’ s deputy public defender .
But we ’ re going to go first to Lara Bazelon to fix a technical problem that we have .
Lara Bazelon , can you talk about your concerns that you laid out in your op-ed for The New York Times about the record of Kamala Harris as DA and attorney general ?
And then we ’ ll talk about her record as a U.S. senator .
LARA @ @ @ @ @ @ @ laid out had to do with her embrace of policies that in some ways were regressive .
So , for example , when she was attorney general — and this was my biggest concern — her office fought tooth and nail to uphold wrongful convictions , that in some cases kept innocent people in prison .
And then , I think , towards the moment that we are today — and I admit that she ’ s absolutely shifted on this — she did oppose bills or just stand silent on bills that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ officer-involved shootings and mandate body-worn cameras by police officers across the state .
When she was a DA , there was a large crime scandal , and rather than concede the corruption in the lab , she fought back and accused the judge of bias , because her husband , a defense attorney , had spoken out against the hiding of exculpatory evidence .
And while I think Ms. Solis makes important points about her marijuana record , in that she didn ’ t send people to prison and jail as other DAs @ @ @ @ @ @ @ prosecute almost , I think , 1,900 marijuana cases .
Those folks had permanent records until they were wiped away by our past DA .
And she declined to support a bill in 2016 that would have made marijuana legal , and she actively opposed the same bill that came up in 2010 while she was still DA .
AMY GOODMAN : Can you talk about the Trulove case , and other cases like that , that you were so concerned about ?
LARA BAZELON : The Jamal Trulove case was prosecuted initially @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the office by a prosecutor named Linda Allen .
Jamal Trulove was accused of murder .
It was a single witness identification .
The deputy DA who prosecuted him , Linda Allen , according to a unanimous appellate court , told a jury a yarn made up out of whole cloth , indicating that this witness was terrified for her life because Jamal and his family had threatened her , when none of that was true , and , in fact , this witness had gotten about $ 65,000 to relocate based on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was completely flawed and , in fact , false .
Unfortunately , when the next district attorney took office , Linda Allen was allowed to prosecute her again — that was not under Kamala Harris .
And then , finally , our DA fired her , mercifully .
NERMEEN SHAIKH : Lara , you ’ ve also said that , since then , Senator Harris has had a “ good , hard shove to the left.
” Can you talk about that ?
In what ways has her position , in particular on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ left since she was the attorney general for California ?
LARA BAZELON : I think it ’ s really important to credit this , and it ’ s a crucial evolution in her positions on criminal justice .
Since she ’ s come to the Senate , she has been on the right side of many , many criminal justice reform issues and has really done a 180 on some of her former positions .
So , for example , now she is for the legalization of marijuana .
Now she is for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the key sponsors and advocates for the Justice in Policing Act , which , had it passed , would have done many important things , including done away with qualified immunity , which is a defense that makes it very difficult to prosecute officers who do terrible things .
She would have had a misconduct registry that would have been nationalized , and instituted a number of other important reforms .
She ’ s taken to the streets after the killing of George Floyd .
She has stood up for marginalized people .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ very strong voice on the importance of racial justice .
AMY GOODMAN : Let ’ s bring in Niki Solis , the San Francisco deputy public defender .
Niki , you wrote , in your USA Today piece , that Kamala Harris was “ the most progressive DA in California.
” Talk about your years of working — I wouldn ’ t say with her — really — is it fair to say ?
— against her .
You were on opposite sides .
NIKI SOLIS : Well , the op-ed piece said @ @ @ @ @ @ @ policy issues .
So , I was deputy public defender when I met her , and she came to the office as a deputy DA or an assistant DA .
But then , thereafter , when she became the district attorney and got elected , we worked on policy issues .
We were opponents .
We were adversaries .
So , you ’ re right in that respect .
As far as the work that she did with regard to policy , she did the Criminal Justice Center .
She formalized and implemented @ @ @ @ @ @ @ national model for mental health treatment and wraparound services .
She also did Back on Track , which is a youth court , a youth adult court for 18-to-24-year-olds .
She brought in Lateefah Simon to implement that program to get kids out or young adults out of the criminal justice system without a conviction .
There were so many policies and so many alternatives to incarceration .
These are just a few .
So , it just surprised me that there was this spinout there and this narrative that she wasn ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ progressive prosecutor in California .
And people say , “ Well , that doesn ’ t mean she ’ s necessarily progressive.
” And my argument is , she absolutely was .
This is 2004 to 2011 .
She opposed the death penalty .
Her predecessor did not .
Her predecessor prosecuted the last death penalty case in San Francisco .
Yet people are saying he was more progressive .
And I just didn ’ t get it .
That ’ s why I felt like I had to speak out and do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a public defender , and it ’ s very hard for a public defender to speak out in this way .
NERMEEN SHAIKH : Well , Niki Solis , how would you expect her to influence Joe Biden on the question of criminal justice reform ?
And how do you compare where the two have stood on this issue ?
NIKI SOLIS : Well , the thing is , when Kamala came in , or Senator Harris came in , her methodology was — and she said it over and over again — @ @ @ @ @ @ @ crime .
We can ’ t be hard on crime .
We can ’ t be tough on crime .
We have to be smart on crime.
” So , I would argue that she was a forward thinker .
Sixteen years after she took the position she did in not seeking the death penalty , particularly in a high-profile case where a police officer was shot and killed — 16 years later , the district attorney in Santa Clara takes that position a few weeks ago .
If you ’ re saying @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s just — it ’ s interesting to me .
So , I do believe that she has those values .
I do see her as a forward thinker and a reformist .
And I do believe that she will inform Joe Biden on these issues , because she has been at the forefront .
She stopped prosecuting young girls in prostitution cases , and she started a human trafficking task force and the Coalition Against Trafficking .
So , I am really confident that she has a very good grip on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s why I spoke out .
I was surprised that there was this spin , that I just did not agree with .
I was in management .
I was in management for several years .
I was on the frontlines .
Yes , there were things we did not agree on .
There were things we did not agree on .
But as far as marijuana prosecutions , those cases were never prosecuted .
Simple possession of marijuana were never on the court docket .
As far as sales of marijuana @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , those resulted in alternative courts , community justice courts , drug court , and also resulted in the Back on Track court disposition , also resulted in misdemeanor dispositions , not felony conviction .
AMY GOODMAN : Lara Bazelon , if you could respond , as Niki Solis talks about her time as a public defender ?
LARA BAZELON : Sure .
Well , first of all , I — AMY GOODMAN : Rather , as a district attorney , I should say .
LARA BAZELON : Sure .
Well , first @ @ @ @ @ @ @ saying that I have tremendous respect for Niki Solis , and I also absolutely understand that she was on the frontlines .
I do think , though , that what I said in my New York Times piece is factual , and I stand by it .
With respect to marijuana prosecutions , again , she ended up with over 1,900 convictions .
And while some were , of course , misdemeanors , maybe most , it ’ s still basically putting this mark on people ’ s records that makes it difficult @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , of course , what we know all too well is that even though people of color use marijuana at less rates than white people , they ’ re prosecuted at extraordinarily disproportionate levels .
But I think the most important thing to take away from all of this is that the issue , and what led me to write the piece that I wrote , was that when Kamala Harris launched her campaign for president , she branded herself a progressive prosecutor .
And I wrote my piece to point out why @ @ @ @ @ @ @ well be fair to say that she was more progressive than the Santa Clara DA , Jeff Rosen .
I will submit to you that Jeff Rosen , if you ’ re comparing yourself to him , that is a low bar .
And in fact , Jeff Rosen hired Linda Allen recently , after Chesa Boudin , our DA , fired her .
This is the same DA who first , under Kamala Harris , wrongfully prosecuted Jamal Trulove .
So , this is a complicated conversation , because , first of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , as Niki pointed out , a time , 2004 to 2011 , where really that term didn ’ t exist , “ progressive prosecutor.
” It was more , as Niki was saying , being , quote , “ smart on crime.
” So my issue really with Kamala Harris was her using the term , because I think it had become a very trendy and attractive term to attach to yourself to try to say , sort of retrospectively or retroactively , that she had been progressive , when in fact @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Yes .
The 1,195 convictions included the Hallinan years .
Those were the community — the Court Management System .
Those included the Hallinan years .
OK ?
I was there .
I never saw a simple possession of marijuana prosecuted on its own .
It ’ s absurd to say that .
These convictions were based on cases that were occurring over a long period of time , and they were sales cases , and they were reduced to misdemeanors .
I ’ m not comparing Senator Harris ’ s record to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that 16 years later , someone came forward and did what she did .
So , I was speaking on how forward-thinking she is .
Let ’ s compare her to Terence Hallinan , her predecessor , who sought the death penalty .
Let ’ s compare her to Terence Hallinan , who actually did prosecute marijuana cases .
OK ?
I was there .
I saw it .
And so , I think it ’ s fair to say that as far as marijuana prosecutions , she was absolutely forward-thinking , because @ @ @ @ @ @ @ she allowed young adults to go to Back on Track , where she allowed folks who were struggling with mental health issues to not suffer a felony conviction , even though these were felony cases .
When you look at marijuana cases , you ’ re talking about all or nothing in California at the time .
If you sold marijuana , it was a felony .
If you gave it away — unlike with other drugs , if you gave it away , it was a $ 100 fine .
OK ?
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ a $ 100 fine .
There was no in between .
So , this legal fiction was created where we used 11357 ( c ) of the Health and Safety Code , possession of marijuana , 28.5 grams or more , in order to reduce the cases to a misdemeanor on cases where people were going to be convicted of felonies , felony drug sales , so — and for marijuana .
So I think that ’ s very forward-thinking , and I think that ’ s very progressive .
And I don @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with that .
AMY GOODMAN : Lara Bazelon , if you could comment on her opposition to the death penalty ?
I mean , right from the start , when she was elected DA , you had a sister Democrat , Senator Dianne Feinstein , speaking at the funeral of an officer who had been killed , and actually attacking Kamala Harris for being opposed to the death penalty .
But she stuck to that position .
She had been opposed by police officers and unions .
But then can you talk about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on the death penalty , but on Kamala Harris , from prosecutor to — from DA to attorney general ?
LARA BAZELON : I think it ’ s important to note how incredibly brave the stance Kamala Harris took was , because right after she took office , there was this tragic killing of an undercover police officer , and there was tremendous pressure on her to seek the death penalty , to the point where , as you acknowledge , Dianne Feinstein actually called Kamala Harris out at the funeral .
And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the most painful moments of her career .
But she stuck to her principles .
What ended up happening was that there was tremendous backlash against her .
And no doubt some of that was also motivated by racism and sexism , because it ’ s important to understand just how pathbreaking and trailblazing she was as the first Black woman to become DA and then to seek attorney general .
And during that race , which she ran against the DA in L.A. , Steve Cooley , she squeaked by with barely @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
And that was in part because of the opposition from police groups towards her .
And so , what she had to do , what she did do , was court their support very successfully .
And as a result , I think , she made a series of compromises and took stances , which I sort of enumerated at the top of the hour , that I find deeply problematic .
And I think part of that was instinctual political survival .
But as a result , very important reforms that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ were advocating for , she did not get behind .
The death penalty legacy is also really interesting , because , as the DA — I mean , excuse me , as attorney general , she was confronted with this very complicated case where , in a death penalty case , a federal judge had found the death penalty to be unconstitutional .
And it was up to her to decide whether or not to appeal that ruling .
And she did .
And as a result of her office defending the death @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , of course , we have it to this day .
AMY GOODMAN : Niki Solis , you ’ re an LGBTQI mom of two .
You ’ re a deputy public defender , again , argued many cases against the DA ’ s Office at the time — that was Kamala Harris — as you pointed out .
On the issue of LGBTQ rights , Kamala Harris , didn ’ t she preside over the marriage , the first LGBTQ marriage in California , or at least in San Francisco ?
NIKI @ @ @ @ @ @ @ t speak to that , to be honest with you .
I ’ m here to speak on her record as district attorney , because I , having been a public defender for 24 years , saw what she did .
And I do want to speak to Lara ’ s issue or statement regarding her record there , because I do — I ’ m here to set the record straight .
And as I said , as a public defender , it ’ s very difficult to stand up and defend @ @ @ @ @ @ @ You know , I am a true believer .
I ’ m here because I see that there ’ s some — I have to say that there ’ s credit that ’ s not being given here .
When Lara talks about , in her article , the crime lab scandal , yes , it goes to the top .
You know , Senator Harris is responsible and has to speak to that .
But in that article , it mentioned that , weeks later , she started the integrity unit at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to this day Chesa Boudin is now using to implement changes and reform as far as prosecuting cases that involve officers who have questionable records or who are not trustworthy .
Senator Harris created that unit in that office weeks after the crime lab scandal .
But the thing is , people are not mentioning it .
And that ’ s what I have issue with .
Yes , as an LGBTQ person , I have always felt that Kamala has been an ally .
The last time I saw her was at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , at the last in-person Pride event .
So , I do believe she ’ s always been an ally of the LGBTQ community .
She has stood up for the community .
But what I want to tell progressives here , people here who are on this call , is it ’ s not about anything except standing up and setting the record straight as far as her progressive values as a prosecutor .
And I know to say she was “ the most progressive ” might not be compelling .
My @ @ @ @ @ @ @ period .
We ’ re talking about a period of 2004 .
And if we agree that progressive means moving forward and doing — making radical changes and bold changes in order to effectuate some semblance of justice and equality under the law , she was that person .
I talked to her before she became district attorney .
I talked to her about my client being found in a dumpster because she was prostituting herself .
And I told Senator Harris how important it was for us to treat these girls as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as criminals .
I tried a 647 ( b ) case in Juvenile Hall that was prosecuted by her predecessor , who people are saying was more progressive .
He prosecuted young girls who were charged with prostitution .
Senator Harris came in and did something progressive and different : She stopped .
And she also created that coalition , and she also spearheaded that task force , invited me as a public defender to the meeting , and I spoke up on my experience of these young girls being trafficked and used @ @ @ @ @ @ @ she stood up , and she did something different and progressive .
AMY GOODMAN : Well , we ’ re going to leave it there , and we want to thank you both so much for being with us .
Niki Solis , San Francisco deputy public defender , she wrote a piece for USA Today headlined “ I worked with Kamala Harris .
She was the most progressive DA in California.
” And Lara Bazelon , professor at the University of San Francisco School of Law and director of the school ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Justice Law Clinics , wrote a piece last year headlined “ Kamala Harris Was Not a 'Progressive Prosecutor . '
” And just for the record , looking at the issue of same-sex marriage , I thought it was interesting to go right to Kamala Harris ’ s memoir , The Truths We Hold , where she recalled officiating some of the first same-sex wedding ceremonies on Valentine ’ s Day 2004 , after then-San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom unilaterally declared that same-sex couples would be permitted to marry in the city .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ Court , you had the first marriage , after the Supreme Court decision , was officiated over in Berkeley by Kamala Harris .
Next , we go to Bolivia , where opponents of the coup government have entered day 11 of a general strike and a nationwide highway blockade to protest the repeated postponement of Bolivia ’ s first presidential elections after the coup .
Stay with us .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: We continue to discuss Joe Biden’s historic Democratic vice-presidential running mate, California Senator Kamala Harris, the first woman of color on a major party ticket, as we examine her record as a prosecutor in California, when she proudly billed herself as “top cop” and called for more cops on the street.
In 2004, Harris became district attorney of San Francisco. She held the post until 2011, when she became the attorney general of California. Briahna Joy Gray, the former national press secretary for Bernie Sanders 2020, tweeted, quote, “We are in the midst of the largest protest movement in American history, the subject of which is excessive policing, and the Democratic Party chose a 'top cop' and the author of the Joe Biden crime bill to save us from Trump. The contempt for the base is, wow.”
Well, for more, we’re joined by two people. We go to San Francisco to look at Harris’s record closely. Lara Bazelon is a professor at the University of San Francisco School of Law, director of the school’s Criminal and Juvenile Justice and Racial Justice Law Clinics. She wrote a New York Times op-ed last year headlined “Kamala Harris Was Not a 'Progressive Prosecutor.'” But also joining us is Niki Solis. She is a San Francisco deputy public defender, who’s written a piece for USA Today headlined “I worked with Kamala Harris. She was the most progressive DA in California.”
We welcome you both to Democracy Now! We’re going to begin right now with Niki Solis, who’s San Francisco’s deputy public defender. But we’re going to go first to Lara Bazelon to fix a technical problem that we have. Lara Bazelon, can you talk about your concerns that you laid out in your op-ed for The New York Times about the record of Kamala Harris as DA and attorney general? And then we’ll talk about her record as a U.S. senator.
LARA BAZELON: Sure. The concerns I laid out had to do with her embrace of policies that in some ways were regressive. So, for example, when she was attorney general — and this was my biggest concern — her office fought tooth and nail to uphold wrongful convictions, that in some cases kept innocent people in prison. And then, I think, towards the moment that we are today — and I admit that she’s absolutely shifted on this — she did oppose bills or just stand silent on bills that would have allowed her office to investigate officer-involved shootings and mandate body-worn cameras by police officers across the state.
When she was a DA, there was a large crime scandal, and rather than concede the corruption in the lab, she fought back and accused the judge of bias, because her husband, a defense attorney, had spoken out against the hiding of exculpatory evidence.
And while I think Ms. Solis makes important points about her marijuana record, in that she didn’t send people to prison and jail as other DAs had in the past, she did prosecute almost, I think, 1,900 marijuana cases. Those folks had permanent records until they were wiped away by our past DA. And she declined to support a bill in 2016 that would have made marijuana legal, and she actively opposed the same bill that came up in 2010 while she was still DA.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about the Trulove case, and other cases like that, that you were so concerned about?
LARA BAZELON: The Jamal Trulove case was prosecuted initially when Kamala Harris was the head of the office by a prosecutor named Linda Allen. Jamal Trulove was accused of murder. It was a single witness identification. The deputy DA who prosecuted him, Linda Allen, according to a unanimous appellate court, told a jury a yarn made up out of whole cloth, indicating that this witness was terrified for her life because Jamal and his family had threatened her, when none of that was true, and, in fact, this witness had gotten about $65,000 to relocate based on her fantasy fear, and her identification was completely flawed and, in fact, false. Unfortunately, when the next district attorney took office, Linda Allen was allowed to prosecute her again — that was not under Kamala Harris. And then, finally, our DA fired her, mercifully.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Lara, you’ve also said that, since then, Senator Harris has had a “good, hard shove to the left.” Can you talk about that? In what ways has her position, in particular on criminal justice reform, moved to the left since she was the attorney general for California?
LARA BAZELON: I think it’s really important to credit this, and it’s a crucial evolution in her positions on criminal justice. Since she’s come to the Senate, she has been on the right side of many, many criminal justice reform issues and has really done a 180 on some of her former positions.
So, for example, now she is for the legalization of marijuana. Now she is for bail reform. She was one of the key sponsors and advocates for the Justice in Policing Act, which, had it passed, would have done many important things, including done away with qualified immunity, which is a defense that makes it very difficult to prosecute officers who do terrible things. She would have had a misconduct registry that would have been nationalized, and instituted a number of other important reforms. She’s taken to the streets after the killing of George Floyd. She has stood up for marginalized people. And she has been a very, very strong voice on the importance of racial justice.
AMY GOODMAN: Let’s bring in Niki Solis, the San Francisco deputy public defender. Niki, you wrote, in your USA Today piece, that Kamala Harris was “the most progressive DA in California.” Talk about your years of working — I wouldn’t say with her — really — is it fair to say? — against her. You were on opposite sides.
NIKI SOLIS: Well, the op-ed piece said both. I worked with her on policy issues. So, I was deputy public defender when I met her, and she came to the office as a deputy DA or an assistant DA. But then, thereafter, when she became the district attorney and got elected, we worked on policy issues. We were opponents. We were adversaries. So, you’re right in that respect.
As far as the work that she did with regard to policy, she did the Criminal Justice Center. She formalized and implemented Behavioral Health Court, which became a national model for mental health treatment and wraparound services. She also did Back on Track, which is a youth court, a youth adult court for 18-to-24-year-olds. She brought in Lateefah Simon to implement that program to get kids out or young adults out of the criminal justice system without a conviction. There were so many policies and so many alternatives to incarceration. These are just a few.
So, it just surprised me that there was this spinout there and this narrative that she wasn’t progressive. She was the most progressive prosecutor in California. And people say, “Well, that doesn’t mean she’s necessarily progressive.” And my argument is, she absolutely was. This is 2004 to 2011. She opposed the death penalty. Her predecessor did not. Her predecessor prosecuted the last death penalty case in San Francisco. Yet people are saying he was more progressive. And I just didn’t get it. That’s why I felt like I had to speak out and do this, even though I’m a public defender, and it’s very hard for a public defender to speak out in this way.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, Niki Solis, how would you expect her to influence Joe Biden on the question of criminal justice reform? And how do you compare where the two have stood on this issue?
NIKI SOLIS: Well, the thing is, when Kamala came in, or Senator Harris came in, her methodology was — and she said it over and over again — “We have to be smart on crime. We can’t be hard on crime. We can’t be tough on crime. We have to be smart on crime.” So, I would argue that she was a forward thinker.
Sixteen years after she took the position she did in not seeking the death penalty, particularly in a high-profile case where a police officer was shot and killed — 16 years later, the district attorney in Santa Clara takes that position a few weeks ago. If you’re saying that’s not progressive, that’s just — it’s interesting to me.
So, I do believe that she has those values. I do see her as a forward thinker and a reformist. And I do believe that she will inform Joe Biden on these issues, because she has been at the forefront. She stopped prosecuting young girls in prostitution cases, and she started a human trafficking task force and the Coalition Against Trafficking. So, I am really confident that she has a very good grip on the issues.
And again, that’s why I spoke out. I was surprised that there was this spin, that I just did not agree with. I was in management. I was in management for several years. I was on the frontlines. Yes, there were things we did not agree on. There were things we did not agree on.
But as far as marijuana prosecutions, those cases were never prosecuted. Simple possession of marijuana were never on the court docket. As far as sales of marijuana, in the Haight-Ashbury, for instance, those resulted in alternative courts, community justice courts, drug court, and also resulted in the Back on Track court disposition, also resulted in misdemeanor dispositions, not felony conviction.
AMY GOODMAN: Lara Bazelon, if you could respond, as Niki Solis talks about her time as a public defender?
LARA BAZELON: Sure. Well, first of all, I —
AMY GOODMAN: Rather, as a district attorney, I should say.
LARA BAZELON: Sure. Well, first of all, I should start by saying that I have tremendous respect for Niki Solis, and I also absolutely understand that she was on the frontlines. I do think, though, that what I said in my New York Times piece is factual, and I stand by it.
With respect to marijuana prosecutions, again, she ended up with over 1,900 convictions. And while some were, of course, misdemeanors, maybe most, it’s still basically putting this mark on people’s records that makes it difficult for them to come forward. And, of course, what we know all too well is that even though people of color use marijuana at less rates than white people, they’re prosecuted at extraordinarily disproportionate levels.
But I think the most important thing to take away from all of this is that the issue, and what led me to write the piece that I wrote, was that when Kamala Harris launched her campaign for president, she branded herself a progressive prosecutor. And I wrote my piece to point out why that was not correct. It may well be fair to say that she was more progressive than the Santa Clara DA, Jeff Rosen. I will submit to you that Jeff Rosen, if you’re comparing yourself to him, that is a low bar. And in fact, Jeff Rosen hired Linda Allen recently, after Chesa Boudin, our DA, fired her. This is the same DA who first, under Kamala Harris, wrongfully prosecuted Jamal Trulove.
So, this is a complicated conversation, because, first of all, we’re talking about, as Niki pointed out, a time, 2004 to 2011, where really that term didn’t exist, “progressive prosecutor.” It was more, as Niki was saying, being, quote, “smart on crime.” So my issue really with Kamala Harris was her using the term, because I think it had become a very trendy and attractive term to attach to yourself to try to say, sort of retrospectively or retroactively, that she had been progressive, when in fact she had not.
AMY GOODMAN: Niki Solis?
NIKI SOLIS: Yes. The 1,195 convictions included the Hallinan years. Those were the community — the Court Management System. Those included the Hallinan years. OK? I was there. I never saw a simple possession of marijuana prosecuted on its own. It’s absurd to say that. These convictions were based on cases that were occurring over a long period of time, and they were sales cases, and they were reduced to misdemeanors.
I’m not comparing Senator Harris’s record to Jeff Rosen. I was simply saying that 16 years later, someone came forward and did what she did. So, I was speaking on how forward-thinking she is. Let’s compare her to Terence Hallinan, her predecessor, who sought the death penalty. Let’s compare her to Terence Hallinan, who actually did prosecute marijuana cases. OK? I was there. I saw it.
And so, I think it’s fair to say that as far as marijuana prosecutions, she was absolutely forward-thinking, because we are talking about sales cases where she allowed young adults to go to Back on Track, where she allowed folks who were struggling with mental health issues to not suffer a felony conviction, even though these were felony cases.
When you look at marijuana cases, you’re talking about all or nothing in California at the time. If you sold marijuana, it was a felony. If you gave it away — unlike with other drugs, if you gave it away, it was a $100 fine. OK? If you possessed it, it was a $100 fine. There was no in between.
So, this legal fiction was created where we used 11357(c) of the Health and Safety Code, possession of marijuana, 28.5 grams or more, in order to reduce the cases to a misdemeanor on cases where people were going to be convicted of felonies, felony drug sales, so — and for marijuana. So I think that’s very forward-thinking, and I think that’s very progressive. And I don’t think many people could argue with that.
AMY GOODMAN: Lara Bazelon, if you could comment on her opposition to the death penalty? I mean, right from the start, when she was elected DA, you had a sister Democrat, Senator Dianne Feinstein, speaking at the funeral of an officer who had been killed, and actually attacking Kamala Harris for being opposed to the death penalty. But she stuck to that position. She had been opposed by police officers and unions. But then can you talk about how they changed their position — not on the death penalty, but on Kamala Harris, from prosecutor to — from DA to attorney general?
LARA BAZELON: I think it’s important to note how incredibly brave the stance Kamala Harris took was, because right after she took office, there was this tragic killing of an undercover police officer, and there was tremendous pressure on her to seek the death penalty, to the point where, as you acknowledge, Dianne Feinstein actually called Kamala Harris out at the funeral. And Kamala Harris describes that as one of the most painful moments of her career. But she stuck to her principles.
What ended up happening was that there was tremendous backlash against her. And no doubt some of that was also motivated by racism and sexism, because it’s important to understand just how pathbreaking and trailblazing she was as the first Black woman to become DA and then to seek attorney general. And during that race, which she ran against the DA in L.A., Steve Cooley, she squeaked by with barely less than 1% of the margin. And that was in part because of the opposition from police groups towards her.
And so, what she had to do, what she did do, was court their support very successfully. And as a result, I think, she made a series of compromises and took stances, which I sort of enumerated at the top of the hour, that I find deeply problematic. And I think part of that was instinctual political survival. But as a result, very important reforms that we were advocating for, that progressives were advocating for, she did not get behind.
The death penalty legacy is also really interesting, because, as the DA — I mean, excuse me, as attorney general, she was confronted with this very complicated case where, in a death penalty case, a federal judge had found the death penalty to be unconstitutional. And it was up to her to decide whether or not to appeal that ruling. And she did. And as a result of her office defending the death penalty, it was reinstated. And, of course, we have it to this day.
AMY GOODMAN: Niki Solis, you’re an LGBTQI mom of two. You’re a deputy public defender, again, argued many cases against the DA’s Office at the time — that was Kamala Harris — as you pointed out. On the issue of LGBTQ rights, Kamala Harris, didn’t she preside over the marriage, the first LGBTQ marriage in California, or at least in San Francisco?
NIKI SOLIS: Well, I can’t speak to that, to be honest with you. I’m here to speak on her record as district attorney, because I, having been a public defender for 24 years, saw what she did. And I do want to speak to Lara’s issue or statement regarding her record there, because I do — I’m here to set the record straight. And as I said, as a public defender, it’s very difficult to stand up and defend a prosecutor, just on principle. You know, I am a true believer. I’m here because I see that there’s some — I have to say that there’s credit that’s not being given here.
When Lara talks about, in her article, the crime lab scandal, yes, it goes to the top. You know, Senator Harris is responsible and has to speak to that. But in that article, it mentioned that, weeks later, she started the integrity unit at the DA’s Office, that to this day Chesa Boudin is now using to implement changes and reform as far as prosecuting cases that involve officers who have questionable records or who are not trustworthy. Senator Harris created that unit in that office weeks after the crime lab scandal. But the thing is, people are not mentioning it. And that’s what I have issue with.
Yes, as an LGBTQ person, I have always felt that Kamala has been an ally. The last time I saw her was at the Alice B. Toklas breakfast in 2019, at the last in-person Pride event. So, I do believe she’s always been an ally of the LGBTQ community. She has stood up for the community.
But what I want to tell progressives here, people here who are on this call, is it’s not about anything except standing up and setting the record straight as far as her progressive values as a prosecutor. And I know to say she was “the most progressive” might not be compelling. My argument is, she was progressive, period. We’re talking about a period of 2004. And if we agree that progressive means moving forward and doing — making radical changes and bold changes in order to effectuate some semblance of justice and equality under the law, she was that person.
I talked to her before she became district attorney. I talked to her about my client being found in a dumpster because she was prostituting herself. And I told Senator Harris how important it was for us to treat these girls as victims and not as suspects, not as criminals. I tried a 647(b) case in Juvenile Hall that was prosecuted by her predecessor, who people are saying was more progressive. He prosecuted young girls who were charged with prostitution. Senator Harris came in and did something progressive and different: She stopped. And she also created that coalition, and she also spearheaded that task force, invited me as a public defender to the meeting, and I spoke up on my experience of these young girls being trafficked and used, their bodies being used. And she stood up, and she did something different and progressive.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, we’re going to leave it there, and we want to thank you both so much for being with us. Niki Solis, San Francisco deputy public defender, she wrote a piece for USA Today headlined “I worked with Kamala Harris. She was the most progressive DA in California.” And Lara Bazelon, professor at the University of San Francisco School of Law and director of the school’s Criminal and Juvenile Justice and Racial Justice Law Clinics, wrote a piece last year headlined “Kamala Harris Was Not a 'Progressive Prosecutor.'”
And just for the record, looking at the issue of same-sex marriage, I thought it was interesting to go right to Kamala Harris’s memoir, The Truths We Hold, where she recalled officiating some of the first same-sex wedding ceremonies on Valentine’s Day 2004, after then-San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom unilaterally declared that same-sex couples would be permitted to marry in the city. And when it came to the Supreme Court, you had the first marriage, after the Supreme Court decision, was officiated over in Berkeley by Kamala Harris.
Next, we go to Bolivia, where opponents of the coup government have entered day 11 of a general strike and a nationwide highway blockade to protest the repeated postponement of Bolivia’s first presidential elections after the coup. Stay with us.


democracynow--2020-08-13--The Case Against Trump Is "Open and Shut": Kamala Harris Slams President's Handling of Pandemic

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : Former Vice President Joe Biden and Senator Kamala Harris appeared together for the first time as running mates on a historic Democratic Party ticket Wednesday afternoon in a local high school gym in Wilmington , Delaware .
They walked in together wearing masks to the Curtis Mayfield song “ Move On Up.
” Biden introduced his newly announced running mate to a small group of socially distanced reporters .
JOE BIDEN : I have no doubt that I picked the right person @ @ @ @ @ @ @ president of the United States of America .
And that ’ s Senator Kamala Harris .
… And this morning , all across the nation , little girls woke up , especially little Black and Brown girls , who so often feel overlooked and undervalued in their communities , but today — today — just maybe , they ’ re seeing themselves for the first time in a new way : as the stuff of president and vice presidents .
AMY GOODMAN : Former Vice President Joe Biden then turned the floor over @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of immigrants from India and Jamaica , and the first woman of color on a major party presidential ticket .
SEN. KAMALA HARRIS : My mother and father , they came from opposite sides of the world to arrive in America , one from India and the other from Jamaica , in search of a world-class education .
But what brought them together was the civil rights movement of the 1960s .
And that ’ s how they met , as students in the streets of Oakland marching and shouting for this thing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ continues today .
And I was part of it .
My parents would bring me to protests strapped tightly in my stroller .
And my mother , Shyamala , raised my sister Maya and me to believe that it was up to us and to every generation of Americans to keep on marching .
She ’ d tell us , “ Don ’ t sit around and complain about things .
Do something.
” So I did something .
I devoted my life to making real the words carved in the United States @ @ @ @ @ @ @ law.
” … The case against Donald Trump and Mike Pence is open and shut .
Just look where they ’ ve gotten us : more than 16 million out of work ; millions of kids who can not go back to school ; a crisis of poverty , of homelessness , afflicting Black , Brown and Indigenous people the most ; a crisis of hunger , afflicting one in five mothers , who have children that are hungry ; and , tragically , more than 165,000 lives that have been cut short @ @ @ @ @ @ @ got the chance to say goodbye .
It didn ’ t have to be this way .
Six years ago , in fact , we had a different health crisis .
It was called Ebola .
And we all remember that pandemic .
But you know what happened then ?
Barack Obama and Joe Biden did their job .
Only two people in the United States died .
Two .
That is what ’ s called leadership .
So , when other countries opened back up for business , what did we do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
This virus has impacted almost every country , but there ’ s a reason it has hit America worse than any other advanced nation .
It ’ s because of Trump ’ s failure to take it seriously from the start , his refusal to get testing up and running , his flip-flopping on social distancing and wearing masks , his delusional belief that he knows better than the experts .
All of that is reason , and the reason that an American dies of COVID-19 every 80 seconds .
It ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ shut their doors for good .
Trump is also the reason millions of Americans are now unemployed .
He inherited the longest economic expansion in history from Barack Obama and Joe Biden .
And then , like everything else he inherited , he ran it straight into the ground .
Because of Trump ’ s failures of leadership , our economy has taken one of the biggest hits out of all the major industrialized nations , with an unemployment rate that has tripled as of today .
I ’ ll admit , over @ @ @ @ @ @ @ been moments when I have truly worried about our future .
But whenever I think that there is a reason for doubt , whenever I ’ ve had my own doubts , I think of you , the American people — the doctors and nurses and frontline workers , who are risking your lives to save others ; the truck drivers and the workers in grocery stores , in factories , in farms , working there , putting your own safety on the line to help us get through this pandemic ; the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in unprecedented numbers ; the DREAMers and immigrants , who know that families belong together ; the LGBTQ Americans , who know that love is love ; people of every age and color and creed who are finally declaring , in one voice , that , yes , Black lives matter .
AMY GOODMAN : That ’ s Senator Kamala Harris , making her first address as the vice-presidential candidate on a historic Democratic ticket .
In our next segment , we ’ ll look at her record as , well , her @ @ @ @ @ @ @ top cop , ” when she was California ’ s attorney general and , before that , district attorney of San Francisco .
Stay with us .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: Former Vice President Joe Biden and Senator Kamala Harris appeared together for the first time as running mates on a historic Democratic Party ticket Wednesday afternoon in a local high school gym in Wilmington, Delaware. They walked in together wearing masks to the Curtis Mayfield song “Move On Up.” Biden introduced his newly announced running mate to a small group of socially distanced reporters.
JOE BIDEN: I have no doubt that I picked the right person to join me as the next vice president of the United States of America. And that’s Senator Kamala Harris. … And this morning, all across the nation, little girls woke up, especially little Black and Brown girls, who so often feel overlooked and undervalued in their communities, but today — today — just maybe, they’re seeing themselves for the first time in a new way: as the stuff of president and vice presidents.
AMY GOODMAN: Former Vice President Joe Biden then turned the floor over to Senator Kamala Harris, the daughter of immigrants from India and Jamaica, and the first woman of color on a major party presidential ticket.
SEN. KAMALA HARRIS: My mother and father, they came from opposite sides of the world to arrive in America, one from India and the other from Jamaica, in search of a world-class education. But what brought them together was the civil rights movement of the 1960s. And that’s how they met, as students in the streets of Oakland marching and shouting for this thing called justice, in a struggle that continues today. And I was part of it. My parents would bring me to protests strapped tightly in my stroller. And my mother, Shyamala, raised my sister Maya and me to believe that it was up to us and to every generation of Americans to keep on marching. She’d tell us, “Don’t sit around and complain about things. Do something.” So I did something. I devoted my life to making real the words carved in the United States Supreme Court: “equal justice under law.” …
The case against Donald Trump and Mike Pence is open and shut. Just look where they’ve gotten us: more than 16 million out of work; millions of kids who cannot go back to school; a crisis of poverty, of homelessness, afflicting Black, Brown and Indigenous people the most; a crisis of hunger, afflicting one in five mothers, who have children that are hungry; and, tragically, more than 165,000 lives that have been cut short, many with loved ones who never got the chance to say goodbye.
It didn’t have to be this way. Six years ago, in fact, we had a different health crisis. It was called Ebola. And we all remember that pandemic. But you know what happened then? Barack Obama and Joe Biden did their job. Only two people in the United States died. Two. That is what’s called leadership.
But compare that to the moment we find ourselves in now. When other countries are following the science, Trump pushed miracle cures he saw on Fox News. While other countries were flattening the curve, he said the virus would just, poof, go away, quote, “like a miracle.”
So, when other countries opened back up for business, what did we do? We had to shut down again. This virus has impacted almost every country, but there’s a reason it has hit America worse than any other advanced nation. It’s because of Trump’s failure to take it seriously from the start, his refusal to get testing up and running, his flip-flopping on social distancing and wearing masks, his delusional belief that he knows better than the experts. All of that is reason, and the reason that an American dies of COVID-19 every 80 seconds. It’s why countless businesses have had to shut their doors for good.
It’s why there is complete chaos over when and how to reopen our schools. Mothers and fathers are confused and uncertain and angry about child care and the safety of their kids at school, whether they’ll be in danger if they go, or fall behind if they don’t.
Trump is also the reason millions of Americans are now unemployed. He inherited the longest economic expansion in history from Barack Obama and Joe Biden. And then, like everything else he inherited, he ran it straight into the ground. Because of Trump’s failures of leadership, our economy has taken one of the biggest hits out of all the major industrialized nations, with an unemployment rate that has tripled as of today.
This is what happens when we elect a guy who just isn’t up for the job. Our country ends up in tatters. And so does our reputation around the world. …
I’ll admit, over the past four years, there have been moments when I have truly worried about our future. But whenever I think that there is a reason for doubt, whenever I’ve had my own doubts, I think of you, the American people — the doctors and nurses and frontline workers, who are risking your lives to save others; the truck drivers and the workers in grocery stores, in factories, in farms, working there, putting your own safety on the line to help us get through this pandemic; the women and students taking to the streets in unprecedented numbers; the DREAMers and immigrants, who know that families belong together; the LGBTQ Americans, who know that love is love; people of every age and color and creed who are finally declaring, in one voice, that, yes, Black lives matter.
All across this country, a whole new generation of children is growing up hearing the cries for justice and the chants of hope, on which I was raised, some strapped into strollers of their own. And trust me, it’s a song you’ll never forget.
So, to everyone keeping up the fight, you are doing something. You are doing something great. You are the heroes of our time. And you are the reason I know we are going to bring our country closer to realizing its great promise.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s Senator Kamala Harris, making her first address as the vice-presidential candidate on a historic Democratic ticket. In our next segment, we’ll look at her record as, well, her own description, California’s “top cop,” when she was California’s attorney general and, before that, district attorney of San Francisco. Stay with us.


democracynow--2020-08-13--Headlines for August 13, 2020

Headlines for August 13, 2020

Former Vice President Joe Biden and Senator Kamala Harris appeared together Wednesday for the first time as running mates on a historic Democratic Party ticket .
The pair spoke from a local high school gym in Wilmington , Delaware , to a small group of socially distanced reporters .
Harris is set to become the first woman of color to be nominated for national office by a major political party .
In her speech , she blasted President Trump ’ s handling of the economy , immigration , racial justice and the coronavirus pandemic , saying there ’ s a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of coronavirus infections and deaths in the world .
Sen. Kamala Harris : “ It ’ s because of Trump ’ s failure to take it seriously from the start , his refusal to get testing up and running , his flip-flopping on social distancing and wearing masks , his delusional belief that he knows better than the experts .
All of that is reason , and the reason that an American dies of COVID-19 every 80 seconds.
” On Wednesday , Kamala Harris named her new chief of staff : Haitian American @ @ @ @ @ @ @

Former Vice President Joe Biden and Senator Kamala Harris appeared together Wednesday for the first time as running mates on a historic Democratic Party ticket. The pair spoke from a local high school gym in Wilmington, Delaware, to a small group of socially distanced reporters. Harris is set to become the first woman of color to be nominated for national office by a major political party. In her speech, she blasted President Trump’s handling of the economy, immigration, racial justice and the coronavirus pandemic, saying there’s a reason the U.S. has the highest number of coronavirus infections and deaths in the world.
Sen. Kamala Harris: “It’s because of Trump’s failure to take it seriously from the start, his refusal to get testing up and running, his flip-flopping on social distancing and wearing masks, his delusional belief that he knows better than the experts. All of that is reason, and the reason that an American dies of COVID-19 every 80 seconds.”
On Wednesday, Kamala Harris named her new chief of staff: Haitian American lesbian commentator and academician Karine Jean-Pierre.


democracynow--2020-08-14--Jail Took My Mom: Filmmaker on How His Mother Broke the Cycle of Incarceration & Shaping DNC Policy

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
, democracynow.org , The Quarantine Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman .
As the COVID pandemic rages in the United States , people in jails and prisons are 550 % more likely to get infected , 300 % more likely to die .
Those granted compassionate release are joining others who are being released after serving their sentences and returning to their communities .
For many , their criminal record makes it hard to find a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for women .
The coronavirus crisis and the movement for racial justice have magnified these challenges , which are the focus of a new AJ+ and AJ Contrast documentary series called Against All Odds by filmmaker Messiah Rhodes , whose own mother was in and out of jail throughout his childhood .
She was able to break the cycle of incarceration after she was treated for mental illness and substance abuse .
In his reporting , he meets other women who found their way out of prison and are now helping more to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ join us in a few minutes .
He ’ s a former fellow here at Democracy Now !
But this is part of the first episode .
AMY GOODMAN : That ’ s an excerpt from the first part of the new documentary series called Against All Odds by filmmaker Messiah Rhodes with AJ+ and AJ Contrast .
We are going to go to part two , the second episode of the series , where he looks at the lack of healthcare and drug treatment for women in prison and also when they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ That ’ s the new documentary series called Against All Odds by filmmaker and host Messiah Rhodes with AJ+ and AJ Contrast , joining us now for more .
Oh , Messiah , congratulations on this incredible series , that grew out of looking at how your own mother broke the cycle of incarceration .
Can you talk about what it meant to you to make this series , and what you ’ ve learned at this point , in the midst of the Black Lives Matter movement , as we move into @ @ @ @ @ @ @ being drawn up , that your documentation of this story is what those policies should be all about ?
MESSIAH RHODES : Yeah .
Thank you .
Thank you so much for having me , Amy .
It ’ s really good seeing you through all this pandemic times .
So , like , pretty much , the doc series is almost like an answer to the call of “ defund the police , ” in some ways .
Instead of giving law enforcement agencies tanks and like sci-fi-level weaponry , we should @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I feature in the documentary : housing , education , family reunification , mental health support and healthcare .
These are the services that we should be providing for formerly incarcerated people to prevent recidivism , to prevent their interactions with law enforcement .
So , the documentary , as I explored through the filming , that ’ s pretty much what I found , even before the George Floyd situation .
So… AMY GOODMAN : Yes , and I wanted to bring in DeAnna Hoskins , as well , the president of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ most affected by incarceration drive policy reform .
JustLeadership will be hosting a program within the Democratic National Convention next week called Rebuilding the Table , their # JustUS campaign calling on federal and state lawmakers to save the lives of incarcerated people by releasing them during the COVID pandemic .
DeAnna Hoskins , as you watch Messiah ’ s amazing documentary series , can you talk about how this can translate into policy and will very much determine whether the Democratic Party ’ s platform looks different from the Republican Party ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Thank you , Amy .
Watching Messiah ’ s documentary was basically my life story , of my son , having my son at 17 , dealing with substance abuse .
And exactly the themes and the barriers that were actually demonstrated or talked about in his documentary are the realities — his mother recently getting clean and getting able to get her life together , and this was the situation 20 years ago when I returned .
So nothing has changed around the barriers for women to reunite with their family @ @ @ @ @ @ @ having worked on a policy level , funding always come into a state from HUD around emergency shelter , but places like Hope House , A New Way of Life don ’ t receive that funding , because they ’ re considered what we call transitional houses .
And federal and local funds don ’ t pay for transitional housing , which are the most needed housing for women , especially Black women , returning from incarceration , where substance abuse and mental health has actually been one of our issues .
So @ @ @ @ @ @ @ talking about policy , we ’ re seeing where policymakers see the big picture , but they don ’ t understand the intricate details , such as what Messiah and his mom talked about .
The charge kept being incarcerated or prosecuted ; no one ever focused on the issue of what was driving to the crime that led to incarceration .
And then , for women , his mother said something so important that I think everyone forgets .
Society expects a woman to take care of her children .
So , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ substance abuse and mental health , we then have the shame and guilt that we have to overcome , which a lot of times continues to drive to our substance abuse .
So , even addressing the trauma that may have taken place during her act of addiction , none of those things are actually woven into policy .
It ’ s always a Band-Aid issue .
And that ’ s why we ’ re hosting this Rebuilding the Table .
We ’ re tired of Band-Aid solutions .
We need real solutions @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , that impact and change the trajectory of our lives and our children , because what we know , if we ’ re going to break the cycle of addiction from generation , we have to give people a flat start to bounce from to be successful .
AMY GOODMAN : So , what does it mean to be included in the Democratic convention next week ?
What are you going to say to the leaders there ?
By the way , Democracy Now !
will be covering the whole week and the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as well as bringing analysis .
But DeAnna Hoskins ?
DEANNA HOSKINS : So , Amy , one of the biggest things is we know Biden-Sanders unity table came up with criminal justice recommendations , and we applaud them for that .
But the one thing that we actually want to bring to their attention is just what we ’ re talking about .
While their policies talk about the lack of housing , employment , healthcare for people returning to the community , they miss the boat of the intricate details of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the intricate details of how do we start evaluating individuals based on possible trauma , substance abuse , mental health , when we are always incarcerating people .
Does it have to be ?
When Messiah talked about the defund police concept , defunding police — we ’ re saying the largest budget item in any state , any city is always corrections and law enforcement .
We ’ re saying , with defund the police , divest from law enforcement and corrections , and invest in our communities .
Our communities are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are lacking mental health substances issues .
So we have to talk about that .
Messiah talked about the clinic .
And those clinics are underfunded because they ’ re not a budget line item in the city ’ s budget .
But we have to take from the overenforcement to cure social ills where this community has lacked the resources , especially in Black and Brown marginalized communities .
So , our reason for being at the table , you ’ re missing the boat , and if you want to do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ our voices at the table when you draft policy , not after you draft it for us to carry it .
We have to be in the design of the policy .
And we know you understand people being directly impacted being at the table , because your immigration table had individuals from that community .
When you talk about veterans , you have veterans at the table .
When you talk about the Disabilities Act , you have people with disabilities at the table .
I need Democrats to understand and actually @ @ @ @ @ @ @ implicit bias that we don ’ t have the expertise to sit at the table ?
AMY GOODMAN : And I want to give Messiah Rhodes the last word here .
Messiah , again , your series , everyone should watch .
We ’ ll link to it at democracynow.org .
But you have the Democratic leadership now , Kamala Harris , former attorney general and DA , before being a senator .
You have Joe Biden , who was , of course , very involved with the crime bill .
What demands @ @ @ @ @ @ @ see has to happen , based on your life experience with your family and your mom going in and out of prison ?
MESSIAH RHODES : Well , I mean , Harris being the VP candidate is pretty much a historical , remarkable thing happening .
But at the same time , materially , like you see my situation with my family and many other families , like Ms. Hoskins , Black women have been affected by incarceration , law enforcement policies in a negative way .
And as you saw in my @ @ @ @ @ @ @ family was affected by law enforcement and mass incarceration .
So , it ’ s really important that we listen to these voices right now when it comes to , like , Black Lives Matter , defund the police .
We really need healthcare .
We need housing .
We need education .
We need to keep families together , when it comes to the units — unifying communities and individuals .
When you affect a Black woman , you affect the family .
And when you affect a family , you affect @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that Harris and Biden , hopefully , can listen to these communities and realize this is important right now , especially during a crisis like this , with COVID , economic , that they listen to just basic policies , instead of sci-fi weapons , all kinds of stuff — just housing , education , family unification and healthcare .
AMY GOODMAN : Messiah , we have to leave it there .
What an honor to have worked with you here in your fellowship at Democracy Now !
Filmmaker , host of the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
And thank you so much to DeAnna Hoskins .
That does it for our show .
I ’ m Amy Goodman .
Stay safe .
Save lives .
Wear a mask .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The Quarantine Report. I’m Amy Goodman.
As the COVID pandemic rages in the United States, people in jails and prisons are 550% more likely to get infected, 300% more likely to die. Those granted compassionate release are joining others who are being released after serving their sentences and returning to their communities. For many, their criminal record makes it hard to find a job and even housing, especially true for women.
The coronavirus crisis and the movement for racial justice have magnified these challenges, which are the focus of a new AJ+ and AJ Contrast documentary series called Against All Odds by filmmaker Messiah Rhodes, whose own mother was in and out of jail throughout his childhood. She was able to break the cycle of incarceration after she was treated for mental illness and substance abuse. In his reporting, he meets other women who found their way out of prison and are now helping more to do the same. Messiah himself will join us in a few minutes. He’s a former fellow here at Democracy Now! But this is part of the first episode.
MESSIAH RHODES: I lost my mom to the criminal justice system for 15 years. And I can’t help but wonder: How would my life be different if she didn’t keep going back to jail?
JUANIQUE RHODES: I was crushed when they took you. It messed me up. I couldn’t handle it.
MESSIAH RHODES: She was one of the 77% of incarcerated women who are rearrested within nine years. My name is Messiah Rhodes. And as a filmmaker who grew up with a mother in and out of jail, I wanted to understand why breaking the cycle of incarceration is so difficult.
DOLFINETTE MARTIN: What makes us so different? We are human beings. We’re people.
INMATE: I’m 50 years old, and I’m turning my life over.
PROTESTERS: No justice, no peace!
MESSIAH RHODES: I started filming this before the COVID-19 pandemic and the uprising over the killing of George Floyd. But the issues of systemic racism in the prison system have never been more important.
SYRITA STEIB: It doesn’t matter what the odds are. I will bet on formerly incarcerated women any day, any time.
MESSIAH RHODES: When I think about how my mom grew up, I think about how trauma is carried across generations.
What happened to your parents?
JUANIQUE RHODES: They both died very young, my parents, in their thirties. My mom gave me to my grandmother right when I was born, from the hospital. And my grandfather went to jail for four years, and we struggled. We hardly had food.
MESSIAH RHODES: At 17, my mom got pregnant with me. Substance use and mental health problems would hinder her life for years.
JUANIQUE RHODES: We was in family court, and they took you away from me. I was so devastated. It messed me up. I couldn’t handle it, so I started using drugs even more. I was supposed to try to get you back, but I just got deeper and deeper and deeper involved in the drugs. I couldn’t get out. I was medicating my pain.
MESSIAH RHODES: Stuck in a vicious cycle, she went in and out of jail four times.
JUANIQUE RHODES: I had no place to go when I came out. I was homeless. So I started using right away.
MESSIAH RHODES: This theme of fundamental lack of support is something I heard from women across the country.
DOLFINETTE MARTIN: I have 10 felony shoplifting convictions. At what point did a flag go up to say, “Hey, this lady, this woman, this girl needs some help”?
VANEE SYKES: If I’m a mother, and you want me to be able to thrive — right? — wouldn’t you want services in the community? You know, wouldn’t you want the government to have programs so that I don’t have to commit another crime?
MESSIAH RHODES: There’s no central system, locally or federally, to support incarcerated individuals. But organizations like Hope House are trying to fill in this gap. It’s a women-only reentry program in the Bronx.
VANEE SYKES: And this is our kitchen area, where the women have full access to the kitchen, cooking. And, you know, this is their home.
MESSIAH RHODES: Vanee Sykes, co-founder and program director, passed away from COVID-19 in May of 2020. I visited her just a few months earlier to learn more about Hope House.
VANEE SYKES: We deal with it from a holistic approach. A lot of reentry, they want you to get a job as soon as you come out, right? But if you haven’t dealt with those traumas that affected you at 12, and you’re 50 years old, then you’re still battling the shame and the guilt, right? So, you heal the mind, and then the body will follow.
MESSIAH RHODES: Like these women, my mom finally found a supportive housing program that kept her out of jail and helped her begin the process of healing.
REPORTER: It’s lunchtime at the Rhodes home.
EMMA: Macaroni!
REPORTER: Seems routine, but it’s actually quite remarkable, because a year ago Juanique Rhodes didn’t seem like she’d ever have a home.
MESSIAH RHODES: In 2008, a news crew in New York City did a profile on her recovery.
JUANIQUE RHODES: I lived in this abandoned shack for a while, you know, going in and out of there to get high.
REPORTER: Prostituting to support a drug habit, Juanique gave birth to one child addicted to heroin, and another she abandoned at the hospital.
MESSIAH RHODES: Those two children were my brother and sister. I never knew them growing up.
JUANIQUE RHODES: This is the first time all three of my children were together.
MESSIAH RHODES: Years earlier, my grandparents became my guardians, after the courts decided my mother could no longer look after me.
JUANIQUE RHODES: They wouldn’t let me see you.
MESSIAH RHODES: Yeah. How did that make you feel?
JUANIQUE RHODES: I understood what she meant, because she was saying we wasn’t consistent in your life. So she stopped us from seeing you. You know, I used to send you pictures and stuff when I was in jail. I used to draw stuff and send it to the house. I don’t know if you got any of that. You did?
MESSIAH RHODES: I did, and it stopped after a while.
JUANIQUE RHODES: So you did get that stuff?
MESSIAH RHODES: Yeah, yeah, yeah. A little, like, Messiah bib, I think I got.
JUANIQUE RHODES: Mm-hmm.
MESSIAH RHODES: I kept that until I was too old to have that around.
JUANIQUE RHODES: Really?
MESSIAH RHODES: Yeah, yeah.
After we reconnected, my mom’s life was back on the right track, but another obstacle still remained: getting a job.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s an excerpt from the first part of the new documentary series called Against All Odds by filmmaker Messiah Rhodes with AJ+ and AJ Contrast. We are going to go to part two, the second episode of the series, where he looks at the lack of healthcare and drug treatment for women in prison and also when they’re released.
MESSIAH RHODES: My mother’s past substance abuse had a profound impact on my childhood. Her health issues went untreated inside jail. And when she got out, she still didn’t have access to proper care. She kept going back to jail over the course of 15 years.
JUANIQUE RHODES: I was just tired of being in jail, tired of being treated like a number. People would come violate your cell, just flip your mattress over, tear your stuff up. I was tired. I didn’t want to be like that anymore.
MESSIAH RHODES: Seventy-seven percent of women are rearrested within nine years. The question that I had was: Why?
My name is Messiah Rhodes. I’m a filmmaker on a personal journey to understand why so many women keep cycling back into incarceration, and how my mom managed to find her way out.
This was filmed months before the COVID-19 pandemic and the uprising over the killing of George Floyd, but the problems that plague the prison system, like systemic racism and the neglect of vulnerable populations, are even more visible now.
My mother has suffered her whole life from mental and physical illness.
JUANIQUE RHODES: This is my insulin. I take it three times a day, 25 units. You know, I found out like four years ago I was diabetic. All the times I was in the streets, I had no clue.
MESSIAH RHODES: Jails are mandated, by law, to provide medical assistance to their inmates. There is no formal oversight of the quality of services. Inmates often have to pay extra fees and copays. As for my mom, it wasn’t until her fourth and final time in jail that she received any kind of serious treatment.
JUANIQUE RHODES: No, I got sick when I got there.
MESSIAH RHODES: Oh, OK.
JUANIQUE RHODES: But it didn’t get better, because they made me wait. I was on a mental rehab tier the last time.
MESSIAH RHODES: And how was that? What kind —
JUANIQUE RHODES: It was all right. Everybody was medicated on that tier, pysch meds and stuff.
MESSIAH RHODES: So, was it therapy and medication? Or was it —
JUANIQUE RHODES: No, no therapy.
MESSIAH RHODES: It was just medication?
JUANIQUE RHODES: Just medication, yeah.
MESSIAH RHODES: The lack of adequate healthcare has a profound impact on women, both while they’re locked up and when they’re released. A clinic in New Orleans called Formerly Incarcerated Transitions, or FIT Clinic, is trying to help by providing medical services to men and women coming out of the prison system.
DR. ANJALI NIYOGI: When you’re coming out of incarceration, the number of priorities that you have — you know, you’re trying to just have a place to stay. Do you need to pay for that? Do you need to pay for food? Do you need to pay for clothes? You know, healthcare becomes the least important priority.
MESSIAH RHODES: Why is healthcare important to prevent recidivism?
DANIELLE METZ: When you’re sick and you have illnesses, sometimes people will try anything to help themselves. And sometimes that results to crime.
MESSIAH RHODES: Danielle Metz was granted clemency by President Barack Obama in 2016 after serving over 23 years for a nonviolent drug offense. Now she works as a community health worker for FIT Clinic.
DANIELLE METZ: So, whatever they need coming out, like counseling, substance abuse, we have contacts that we can call these people and help them and get them connected.
LAVAUGHN RILEY: When I was incarcerated, I did try to kill myself twice. The loss of my son, the loss of my way of life, the loss of my daughters.
MESSIAH RHODES: With the support of FIT Clinic, Lavaughn Riley was able to reunite with her two daughters.
LAVAUGHN RILEY: I can’t go back to those depression moments and those suicidal moments where I was so close to taking my life. I have to be better for my children. I’ve still got two daughters I’ve got to live for. And I want them to know that although life may throw curveballs and you may be down and out, you know, just, I used to say in jail, this is a minor setback for a major comeback. So, that’s what I’m doing.
MESSIAH RHODES: Women like my mom who suffer from both mental illness and substance use disorders have a higher chance of returning back to jail. Treatment centers like FIT Clinic could be one of the missing links for these women. For my mom, it wasn’t until she got into a treatment program that she turned her life around.
JUANIQUE RHODES: They wanted to send me upstate this time, and I told my lawyer to get a program. And it was Phoenix House. The guilt was eating me alive, guilt and shame, the things that I was doing.
MESSIAH RHODES: After over 15 years in and out of jail, she has a stable home. She curbed her addiction and got custody of my little sister, Emma. Then, she reconnected with me. But many women find reconnecting with family difficult.
JUANIQUE RHODES: First, I was afraid to be a mom, because I hadn’t been a mom so long to my other two children. I realized God gave me another chance to be a mother.
MESSIAH RHODES: My mother and I are in a much better place now. But I feel like my childhood and teenage years were stolen from me, and I’m still recovering from that. My mother, my siblings and I are processing the trauma of separation. We are in uncharted territory, trying to figure out what normal families do. We never had a chance to experience something like a family photo. This is our first one. And we are learning to take care of each other in the world post-incarceration. Love, The Rhodes Family.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s the new documentary series called Against All Odds by filmmaker and host Messiah Rhodes with AJ+ and AJ Contrast, joining us now for more.
Oh, Messiah, congratulations on this incredible series, that grew out of looking at how your own mother broke the cycle of incarceration. Can you talk about what it meant to you to make this series, and what you’ve learned at this point, in the midst of the Black Lives Matter movement, as we move into the Democratic National Convention, and policies being drawn up, that your documentation of this story is what those policies should be all about?
MESSIAH RHODES: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Amy. It’s really good seeing you through all this pandemic times.
So, like, pretty much, the doc series is almost like an answer to the call of “defund the police,” in some ways. Instead of giving law enforcement agencies tanks and like sci-fi-level weaponry, we should be funding these kind of programs that I feature in the documentary: housing, education, family reunification, mental health support and healthcare. These are the services that we should be providing for formerly incarcerated people to prevent recidivism, to prevent their interactions with law enforcement. So, the documentary, as I explored through the filming, that’s pretty much what I found, even before the George Floyd situation. So…
AMY GOODMAN: Yes, and I wanted to bring in DeAnna Hoskins, as well, the president of JustLeadershipUSA, which works to ensure people most affected by incarceration drive policy reform. JustLeadership will be hosting a program within the Democratic National Convention next week called Rebuilding the Table, their #JustUS campaign calling on federal and state lawmakers to save the lives of incarcerated people by releasing them during the COVID pandemic.
DeAnna Hoskins, as you watch Messiah’s amazing documentary series, can you talk about how this can translate into policy and will very much determine whether the Democratic Party’s platform looks different from the Republican Party’s platform?
DEANNA HOSKINS: Yes. Thank you, Amy.
Watching Messiah’s documentary was basically my life story, of my son, having my son at 17, dealing with substance abuse. And exactly the themes and the barriers that were actually demonstrated or talked about in his documentary are the realities — his mother recently getting clean and getting able to get her life together, and this was the situation 20 years ago when I returned. So nothing has changed around the barriers for women to reunite with their family.
When we talk about policies, having worked on a policy level, funding always come into a state from HUD around emergency shelter, but places like Hope House, A New Way of Life don’t receive that funding, because they’re considered what we call transitional houses. And federal and local funds don’t pay for transitional housing, which are the most needed housing for women, especially Black women, returning from incarceration, where substance abuse and mental health has actually been one of our issues. So if we’re going to start talking about policy, we’re seeing where policymakers see the big picture, but they don’t understand the intricate details, such as what Messiah and his mom talked about. The charge kept being incarcerated or prosecuted; no one ever focused on the issue of what was driving to the crime that led to incarceration.
And then, for women, his mother said something so important that I think everyone forgets. Society expects a woman to take care of her children. So, not only do we go incarcerated with substance abuse and mental health, we then have the shame and guilt that we have to overcome, which a lot of times continues to drive to our substance abuse. So, even addressing the trauma that may have taken place during her act of addiction, none of those things are actually woven into policy. It’s always a Band-Aid issue.
And that’s why we’re hosting this Rebuilding the Table. We’re tired of Band-Aid solutions. We need real solutions that have real impact in our community, that impact and change the trajectory of our lives and our children, because what we know, if we’re going to break the cycle of addiction from generation, we have to give people a flat start to bounce from to be successful.
AMY GOODMAN: So, what does it mean to be included in the Democratic convention next week? What are you going to say to the leaders there? By the way, Democracy Now! will be covering the whole week and the highlights of the speeches at night, as well as bringing analysis. But DeAnna Hoskins?
DEANNA HOSKINS: So, Amy, one of the biggest things is we know Biden-Sanders unity table came up with criminal justice recommendations, and we applaud them for that. But the one thing that we actually want to bring to their attention is just what we’re talking about. While their policies talk about the lack of housing, employment, healthcare for people returning to the community, they miss the boat of the intricate details of what led to that. They miss the intricate details of how do we start evaluating individuals based on possible trauma, substance abuse, mental health, when we are always incarcerating people. Does it have to be?
When Messiah talked about the defund police concept, defunding police — we’re saying the largest budget item in any state, any city is always corrections and law enforcement. We’re saying, with defund the police, divest from law enforcement and corrections, and invest in our communities. Our communities are lacking substance abuse treatment. Our communities are lacking mental health substances issues. So we have to talk about that. Messiah talked about the clinic. And those clinics are underfunded because they’re not a budget line item in the city’s budget. But we have to take from the overenforcement to cure social ills where this community has lacked the resources, especially in Black and Brown marginalized communities.
So, our reason for being at the table, you’re missing the boat, and if you want to do something different, you have to have our voices at the table when you draft policy, not after you draft it for us to carry it. We have to be in the design of the policy. And we know you understand people being directly impacted being at the table, because your immigration table had individuals from that community. When you talk about veterans, you have veterans at the table. When you talk about the Disabilities Act, you have people with disabilities at the table. I need Democrats to understand and actually look within themselves: What is their implicit bias that we don’t have the expertise to sit at the table?
AMY GOODMAN: And I want to give Messiah Rhodes the last word here. Messiah, again, your series, everyone should watch. We’ll link to it at democracynow.org. But you have the Democratic leadership now, Kamala Harris, former attorney general and DA, before being a senator. You have Joe Biden, who was, of course, very involved with the crime bill. What demands are you making? What do you see has to happen, based on your life experience with your family and your mom going in and out of prison?
MESSIAH RHODES: Well, I mean, Harris being the VP candidate is pretty much a historical, remarkable thing happening. But at the same time, materially, like you see my situation with my family and many other families, like Ms. Hoskins, Black women have been affected by incarceration, law enforcement policies in a negative way. And as you saw in my documentary, almost three generations of my family was affected by law enforcement and mass incarceration.
So, it’s really important that we listen to these voices right now when it comes to, like, Black Lives Matter, defund the police. We really need healthcare. We need housing. We need education. We need to keep families together, when it comes to the units — unifying communities and individuals. When you affect a Black woman, you affect the family. And when you affect a family, you affect the community.
And I really feel that Harris and Biden, hopefully, can listen to these communities and realize this is important right now, especially during a crisis like this, with COVID, economic, that they listen to just basic policies, instead of sci-fi weapons, all kinds of stuff — just housing, education, family unification and healthcare.
AMY GOODMAN: Messiah, we have to leave it there. What an honor to have worked with you here in your fellowship at Democracy Now! Filmmaker, host of the short documentary series, Against All Odds. And thank you so much to DeAnna Hoskins.
That does it for our show. I’m Amy Goodman. Stay safe. Save lives. Wear a mask.