democracynow--2020-07-23--Philadelphia DA Larry Krasner on Mumia Abu-Jamal, Police Corruption & Reexamining Old Cases

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : Before we go , I wanted to ask you about Mumia Abu-Jamal , one of the most recognized cases in Philadelphia history .
One of the least-known facts of the case is that Mumia was nearly beaten to death at the crime scene .
Within weeks of the end of the trial , a third of the police involved in his case were jailed for systematically tampering with evidence to obtain convictions in cases across Philadelphia .
At least one police officer @ @ @ @ @ @ @ lied on the stand , saying he had properly handled guns .
What are the recourses for addressing police corruption , both in Mumia Abu-Jamal ’ s case and that of so many others in which police were jailed for wrongdoing but the victims remained in jail ?
Some say Philadelphia has a history of cases like this .
I asked you about Mumia Abu-Jamal when you were running for DA .
You ’ re now in for three years .
What ’ s happening in his case ?
LARRY KRASNER : So @ @ @ @ @ @ @ about corruption , one of the things that my office has done is we ’ ve established a police misconduct database — you might call it a list , but it ’ s really a lot better than that — in which we have , consistent with our constitutional obligation to give the defense all the information they ’ re entitled to , including information that may be used by the defense to try to defeat our case as prosecutors .
What happens is , we keep data , we keep information , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ lying or brutality , or it ’ s a police officer having been charged with a crime in a different county , or it may even be a judge having made a decision that a particular police officer lied , or it could be , you know , postings on Facebook that show bias towards any particular group .
We keep all of that information .
And because it ’ s a database , as soon as a new case comes into the system involving that officer , the information automatically is connected @ @ @ @ @ @ @ provided to the defense .
That ’ s never been done in Philadelphia before .
It is a relatively high-tech and , we think , kind of excellent solution .
And it ’ s also fair to the police , because they are notified that they ’ re on this database .
They ’ re given the opportunity to come in and explain why it may be biased .
And the truth is , sometimes it is , because Internal Affairs is as political and as biased as anything else at certain times @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you know , that ’ s part of what we ’ ve done .
We have exonerated , at this point , 14 people .
And we ’ ve been in office for about 26 months .
It is a sea change from everything that came before .
And included on our police misconduct database , there are certain individuals who are categorized as ordinarily people we will not call , we will not call to testify , because we do not trust their integrity .
There are other people who are in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Mumia Abu-Jamal , that is in about the 40th year of its litigation .
We have some things going on very actively in that case .
We take that case no more and no less seriously than every other case , because of the notoriety about it .
One of the things that I ’ ve certainly seen in our work around exoneration and conviction integrity is I have seen that often the unfamous people get a whole lot less attention than the famous people .
But what I can say in that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are certain restrictions on what we should appropriately say at this time .
But it does — you know , it is a microcosm of the realities of what progressive prosecutors face now when they ’ re trying to go back in time and do justice , when they ’ re trying to do justice moving forward , when they ’ re trying to comply with their obligations to give exculpatory information , in a culture that used to shred and used to hide and used to destroy , a culture that I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ criminal defense and civil rights attorney .
AMY GOODMAN : Larry Krasner , I want to thank you for being with us , district attorney of Philadelphia .
Next , we go to Chicago , where Trump is saying he ’ s sending a “ surge ” of federal agents .
We ’ ll look at how protesters are demanding justice after police officers punched out the teeth of an 18-year-old activist named Miracle Boyd .
Stay with us .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: Before we go, I wanted to ask you about Mumia Abu-Jamal, one of the most recognized cases in Philadelphia history. One of the least-known facts of the case is that Mumia was nearly beaten to death at the crime scene. Within weeks of the end of the trial, a third of the police involved in his case were jailed for systematically tampering with evidence to obtain convictions in cases across Philadelphia. At least one police officer in the case, James Forbes, lied on the stand, saying he had properly handled guns. What are the recourses for addressing police corruption, both in Mumia Abu-Jamal’s case and that of so many others in which police were jailed for wrongdoing but the victims remained in jail? Some say Philadelphia has a history of cases like this. I asked you about Mumia Abu-Jamal when you were running for DA. You’re now in for three years. What’s happening in his case?
LARRY KRASNER: So, in terms of the broader question about corruption, one of the things that my office has done is we’ve established a police misconduct database — you might call it a list, but it’s really a lot better than that — in which we have, consistent with our constitutional obligation to give the defense all the information they’re entitled to, including information that may be used by the defense to try to defeat our case as prosecutors. What happens is, we keep data, we keep information, whether it is findings by police of lying or brutality, or it’s a police officer having been charged with a crime in a different county, or it may even be a judge having made a decision that a particular police officer lied, or it could be, you know, postings on Facebook that show bias towards any particular group. We keep all of that information. And because it’s a database, as soon as a new case comes into the system involving that officer, the information automatically is connected to the case and is then appropriately provided to the defense. That’s never been done in Philadelphia before. It is a relatively high-tech and, we think, kind of excellent solution.
And it’s also fair to the police, because they are notified that they’re on this database. They’re given the opportunity to come in and explain why it may be biased. And the truth is, sometimes it is, because Internal Affairs is as political and as biased as anything else at certain times, in certain cases. So, you know, that’s part of what we’ve done.
We have exonerated, at this point, 14 people. And we’ve been in office for about 26 months. It is a sea change from everything that came before. And included on our police misconduct database, there are certain individuals who are categorized as ordinarily people we will not call, we will not call to testify, because we do not trust their integrity. There are other people who are in a less difficult situation.
As for Mumia Abu-Jamal, that is in about the 40th year of its litigation. We have some things going on very actively in that case. We take that case no more and no less seriously than every other case, because of the notoriety about it. One of the things that I’ve certainly seen in our work around exoneration and conviction integrity is I have seen that often the unfamous people get a whole lot less attention than the famous people. But what I can say in that regard is it is pending. There are certain restrictions on what we should appropriately say at this time. But it does — you know, it is a microcosm of the realities of what progressive prosecutors face now when they’re trying to go back in time and do justice, when they’re trying to do justice moving forward, when they’re trying to comply with their obligations to give exculpatory information, in a culture that used to shred and used to hide and used to destroy, a culture that I experienced for almost 30 years as a criminal defense and civil rights attorney.
AMY GOODMAN: Larry Krasner, I want to thank you for being with us, district attorney of Philadelphia.
Next, we go to Chicago, where Trump is saying he’s sending a “surge” of federal agents. We’ll look at how protesters are demanding justice after police officers punched out the teeth of an 18-year-old activist named Miracle Boyd. Stay with us.


democracynow--2020-07-23--Philly DA Larry Krasner: Trump Is a "Wannabe Fascist." I Will Charge His Agents If They Break Law

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : President Trump has announced Wednesday he ’ s sending a “ surge ” of federal agents into Chicago , Albuquerque and other Democrat-run cities to crack down on Black Lives Matter protests , claiming the move is necessary to combat a rise in crime .
This is Trump speaking this week .
AMY GOODMAN : This comes as the president faces increasing criticism for deploying paramilitary-style units to Portland , Oregon , where unidentified federal officers have attacked antiracist protesters and even @ @ @ @ @ @ @ vans .
On Wednesday night , federal forces fired tear gas at protesters in Portland once again .
Among those hit was Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler , who also serves as Portland ’ s police commissioner .
Portland ’ s City Council voted to end cooperation between local police and federal law enforcement .
And the American Civil Liberties Union is now suing the Department of Homeland Security , U.S .
Marshals Service , as well as the city of Portland , for attacking medics while they cared for injured protesters .
Trump @ @ @ @ @ @ @ doing a “ fantastic job , ” and is now threatening to deploy them across the country .
Now , in a remarkable statement , the Philadelphia district attorney has warned Trump ’ s police forces that he will criminally charge them if they bring these same tactics to Philadelphia .
DA Larry Krasner issued the statement Wednesday that , quote , “ My dad volunteered and served in World War II to fight fascism , like most of my uncles , so we would not have an American president brutalizing and kidnapping @ @ @ @ @ @ @ trying to make America a better place , which is what patriots do .
Anyone , including federal law enforcement , who unlawfully assaults and kidnaps people will face criminal charges from my office.
” Again , the words of Larry Krasner , the district attorney of Philadelphia , who joins us now from Philadelphia for more .
DA Larry Krasner , thank you for joining us .
Can you explain how exactly you plan to arrest federal agents ?
And what actions do you feel would warrant that ?
Well , first @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to arrest anyone .
We plan for people to obey the law .
So , if any federal authorities were to come to Philadelphia and follow the law and follow the Constitution , the issue will not present , which is certainly what we all hope .
But it ’ s real simple .
The law applies to the president of the United States , even though he doesn ’ t think so .
The law applies to law enforcement .
The law applies to civilians .
I mean , it is real @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
So , if people are going to come to Philadelphia , and , in uniform , they ’ re going to fracture the skulls of protesters with rubber bullets , they ’ re going to jump out of rental vans and drag people into those vans without probable cause , they are committing crimes under the Pennsylvania statutes .
These are Pennsylvania offenses over which the district attorney in Philly has jurisdiction over that area , and we can bring those charges .
The law is very clear .
We can proceed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Under certain circumstances , they might end up being processed in federal court .
But , initially , we can bring those charges .
We can pursue them .
And as much as possible , we can put those individuals in front of a Philadelphia jury , who might have something to say about those tactics .
NERMEEN SHAIKH : Well , I mean , the question is : Does the president even have the legal authority to deploy federal officers on the streets of Philadelphia , irrespective of what they do ?
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ said that federal authorities coming into states like this without the cooperation of state and local authorities is , quote , “ extraordinary outside the context of a civil war.
” Larry Krasner , your response ?
LARRY KRASNER : So , you know , there are certain kinds of overlapping jurisdiction .
A couple of classic ones are over drug offenses , over gun offenses .
And there are collaborations between state and federal law enforcement that go on all the time .
In fact , they are happening in my office @ @ @ @ @ @ @ But there is also a long-standing sort of protocol to this , in which you inform each other of what you ’ re doing .
Some of the time , you know , one of the prosecutorial entities or police entities gets out of the way , so as to not trip over it .
That ’ s not what we ’ re seeing here .
What we are seeing here is , A , who knows what , because it ’ s Donald Trump — who knows what entity is going to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to do what ?
And what we are seeing is absolutely no interest in collaboration .
But I think it ’ s very important not to overstate what ’ s really happening here .
When , you know , the president talks about how he ’ s going to take over cities — really ?
Is that what you ’ re going to do ?
In Chicago , there are 12,500 active police officers .
The last number I heard coming from the president was he was going to send 150 federal agents @ @ @ @ @ @ @ !
That ’ s 1 % .
That is 1 % of the normal police force in Chicago .
So we should not lose sight of the reality that what Donald Trump always does is he ’ s got some shiny object that he ’ s shining over here , and he wants us to pay attention to it because he ’ s doing some dirt in some other location .
Here , he obviously is doing a pretty effective job of trying to distract from his incredible failures , including his failures @ @ @ @ @ @ @ at this point .
So , it remains to be seen what exactly he ’ ll do , if anything , in Philadelphia .
It remains to be seen to what extent this is all fluff .
Obviously , there have been some pretty terrible things that have happened in Portland , that appear — without perfect information , because I don ’ t have perfect information , but they appear to be illegal , and blatantly so .
All I can say is , if federal authorities want to come to Philadelphia @ @ @ @ @ @ @ will face the law like everyone else .
AMY GOODMAN : DA Krasner , can you talk about your family ’ s history ?
And would you say that President Trump ’ s move , calling for a “ surge ” of these federal agents throughout the country , particularly in Democratic cities — would you call President Trump fascist ?
LARRY KRASNER : I would say President Trump is definitely a wannabe fascist .
I ’ m not sure he can spell the word , but he definitely is someone who ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s in love with authoritarianism , brutality , racism , division , hate .
His playbook is essentially the same playbook as the white supremacist playbook , which is , you know , as we see with the Proud Boys , the “ boogaloo ” movement , all this kind of stuff , we see that they are trying to take advantage of the peaceful protests , which is the vast majority of what it is , around George Floyd to become agent provocateurs , to get into it and to cause @ @ @ @ @ @ @ there otherwise .
So , once they have caused it , they can say , “ Look at these people .
Look at what these Black people do .
Or look at what these left-wing people do.
” Well , they ’ re not doing it .
The Proud Boys are doing it .
The “ boogaloo ” crew are doing it , because , as they have repeatedly stated , they ’ re looking to have a second civil war , as absurd as that may all sound .
It ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ seeing with Donald Trump right now .
We have cities that have not had unrest , that have not had an uprising for weeks .
The only thing that ’ s been happening in Philly for weeks has been a moderate amount of peaceful protest .
And yet the president is announcing to the nation that Philadelphia is out of control .
No , it ’ s not .
I ’ m here .
I live here .
The police commissioner is here .
We all see what ’ s going on .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ no crisis that would in any way require federal intervention .
But , once again , if he sends troops of some sort , federal agents of some sort , in here to stir things up , to requisition people , to beat people up , if he sends it in , he ’ s going to cause unrest .
So , what I ’ m saying is , he is acting as an agent provocateur by using his authority to send people in .
And what is the real purpose of this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s probably not a second civil war .
He ’ s much more shortsighted and narcissistic than that .
His real purpose is to distract from his dismal record , the fact that his campaign is dropping like a stone .
In terms of my family history , you know , I mean , it ’ s just — we have a lot of people — or they ’ re almost all passed now , but we have a lot of people in the family who were of an age that they volunteered @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
My dad served in the Pacific on a Pacific island at an airbase .
I had an uncle who was in Germany .
He was an artillery spotter , which is one lousy job to have , because you ’ re in between both sides watching the shells that have been fired from both sides , and hopefully they don ’ t land on you .
That ’ s a tough thing to do .
I had another one who lost most of his hearing serving on a Navy vessel .
And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ if you look to my wife ’ s side of the family , her father was career military .
He was not in World War II , but he flew planes in a couple different wars and eventually ended up being a pilot for an ambassador to Afghanistan , which is where my wife lived when she was a young child .
So , we go way back when it comes to this .
That ’ s not to say we ’ re any different or any better .
But we have someone @ @ @ @ @ @ @ because he was a conscientious objector , but because he ’ s entitled , privileged , cowardly and lazy .
We have this person pretending to be some kind of wannabe fascist .
And it is intolerable .
This is nothing that we can accept in the United States .
AMY GOODMAN : Larry Krasner , I want to ask you about the people still locked up in Philadelphia ’ s jails despite the higher risk of contracting COVID .
Most of them are waiting for their day in court , which has @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the virus .
Many are bail-eligible .
The Philadelphia Community Bail Fund has been actively bailing people out during this time .
Some activists have focused in particular on young people who are still imprisoned .
This is a member of the Youth Art & Self-Empowerment Project named Briyanna describing what it was like when her juvenile son was recently incarcerated during COVID .
AMY GOODMAN : DA Larry Krasner , do you think there are people locked up right now who should not be , given the health risks ?
What is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ from what have been called death traps ?
I ’ m looking at an ad by the Philadelphia Community Bail Fund .
They said , “ DA Larry Krasner , drop the charges , not your knee.
” They said charged more than 400 people in the last two days of protests — this was in the last weeks — kept over a hundred Black youth in detention during COVID , incarcerated thousands of Black Philadelphians in cages at risk of death during COVID .
Can you respond to these accusations or criticisms @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , you know , the problem with a lot of these criticisms is they ’ re completely out of context , and , frankly , cynically out of context .
When we came into office , we were coming off of a city that had 10,000 people in county custody .
We started with 6,500 .
We knocked it down to about 5,000 within a year and a half , which was the quickest progress towards decarceration , essentially , in the history of the city .
And we are currently at 4,000 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ incarceration in Philadelphia since about 1985 .
1985 .
And we have gotten there through a lot of extremely diligent and careful work .
But , you know , I would be misleading you if I told you I thought that people who were accused of murdering four people should be out of custody .
They should not .
They should be in custody before they kill five people .
And I ’ m not making that up .
We have someone sitting there who literally was a contract killer and who is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have someone else associated with five .
Once again , you know , let ’ s talk about the juveniles .
When we came in , there were about 650 juveniles in custody , which was lower than it had been in the past .
There is now on the — it changes every day , of course , but there ’ s now something like 140 .
It is not enough simply to say that someone is a juvenile .
If that juvenile has paralyzed another juvenile by shooting them in the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , there is a role that has to be played by the state in order to make sure that we do not have the slaughter of people on the street .
So , I do not have any reservation about saying that there are some people who need to be in custody even under these circumstances .
But this office , working closely with the Public Defender ’ s Office , has done a remarkable job of diminishing the harm that could have come from Philadelphia ’ s jails becoming an epicenter .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ have experienced — based on my limited information , we ’ ve experienced a total of two deaths among the inmate population , I believe , two deaths among the staff population .
But as we compare that to national averages , a lot of the extremely hard work that we have done , and that we ’ re continuing to do , has paid off .
It ’ s a real problem .
I mean , I ’ m not going to kid you .
It ’ s a real problem , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a hundred new criminal cases a day , that there ’ s no easy exit door to the jail , because the courts are closed .
And they ’ ve been closed for months , and it does not look like they ’ re going to open up quickly .
But all things considered , when we are objective and fair about it , I think we ’ ve actually done an excellent job of keeping this population down , of being very surgical about which individuals need to be in custody at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is fair to say that — and I ’ m not going to get specific with which bail fund , but , you know , there ’ s one of these bail funds that took a young man who had no prior record and was racking up one drug case after another in a very short period of time , in a way that anyone experienced in criminal justice would say signifies that this person needs to be held in custody , needs an intervention .
But once again , the bail fund @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , paid that person ’ s bail .
He came out and was killed on a corner shortly thereafter .
He was on the corner , because the bail fund , even though this young man , who was only 18-and-a-half when it started , had collected six consecutive drug cases in a very short period of time , they ran and paid his bail and got him out the last time .
We ’ ve seen another case — it was a domestic violence case — where the defendant had viciously harmed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ different states , been convicted for it , and , over the objection of the DA ’ s Office , who were trying to protect her , bail fund looked at none of that , ran and paid it , and she then suffered a terrible sexual assault at the hands of the same person .
So , it is not the case that every single person should get out all of the time .
It is not the case that simply saying , no matter what the offense , no matter what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the circumstances , everyone should get out .
The life of that woman mattered .
The life of that young man whose bail was paid and died mattered .
It all matters , and we have to be careful about these things .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: President Trump has announced Wednesday he’s sending a “surge” of federal agents into Chicago, Albuquerque and other Democrat-run cities to crack down on Black Lives Matter protests, claiming the move is necessary to combat a rise in crime. This is Trump speaking this week.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: We’re not going to let New York and Chicago and Philadelphia, Detroit and Baltimore and all of these — Oakland is a mess. We’re not going to let this happen in our country. All run by liberal Democrats.
AMY GOODMAN: This comes as the president faces increasing criticism for deploying paramilitary-style units to Portland, Oregon, where unidentified federal officers have attacked antiracist protesters and even snatched activists off the streets in unmarked vans. On Wednesday night, federal forces fired tear gas at protesters in Portland once again. Among those hit was Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler, who also serves as Portland’s police commissioner. Portland’s City Council voted to end cooperation between local police and federal law enforcement. And the American Civil Liberties Union is now suing the Department of Homeland Security, U.S. Marshals Service, as well as the city of Portland, for attacking medics while they cared for injured protesters.
Trump has responded by saying federal agents are doing a “fantastic job,” and is now threatening to deploy them across the country. Now, in a remarkable statement, the Philadelphia district attorney has warned Trump’s police forces that he will criminally charge them if they bring these same tactics to Philadelphia. DA Larry Krasner issued the statement Wednesday that, quote, “My dad volunteered and served in World War II to fight fascism, like most of my uncles, so we would not have an American president brutalizing and kidnapping Americans for exercising their constitutional rights and trying to make America a better place, which is what patriots do. Anyone, including federal law enforcement, who unlawfully assaults and kidnaps people will face criminal charges from my office.”
Again, the words of Larry Krasner, the district attorney of Philadelphia, who joins us now from Philadelphia for more.
DA Larry Krasner, thank you for joining us. Can you explain how exactly you plan to arrest federal agents? And what actions do you feel would warrant that?
LARRY KRASNER: Good morning.
Well, first of all, we do not plan to arrest anyone. We plan for people to obey the law. So, if any federal authorities were to come to Philadelphia and follow the law and follow the Constitution, the issue will not present, which is certainly what we all hope.
But it’s real simple. The law applies to the president of the United States, even though he doesn’t think so. The law applies to law enforcement. The law applies to civilians. I mean, it is real simple. We have to be even-handed.
So, if people are going to come to Philadelphia, and, in uniform, they’re going to fracture the skulls of protesters with rubber bullets, they’re going to jump out of rental vans and drag people into those vans without probable cause, they are committing crimes under the Pennsylvania statutes. These are Pennsylvania offenses over which the district attorney in Philly has jurisdiction over that area, and we can bring those charges. The law is very clear. We can proceed with those charges in state court. Under certain circumstances, they might end up being processed in federal court. But, initially, we can bring those charges. We can pursue them. And as much as possible, we can put those individuals in front of a Philadelphia jury, who might have something to say about those tactics.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, I mean, the question is: Does the president even have the legal authority to deploy federal officers on the streets of Philadelphia, irrespective of what they do? Cornell University constitutional law professor Michael Dorf said that federal authorities coming into states like this without the cooperation of state and local authorities is, quote, “extraordinary outside the context of a civil war.” Larry Krasner, your response?
LARRY KRASNER: So, you know, there are certain kinds of overlapping jurisdiction. A couple of classic ones are over drug offenses, over gun offenses. And there are collaborations between state and federal law enforcement that go on all the time. In fact, they are happening in my office right now in many different investigations. But there is also a long-standing sort of protocol to this, in which you inform each other of what you’re doing. Some of the time, you know, one of the prosecutorial entities or police entities gets out of the way, so as to not trip over it. That’s not what we’re seeing here. What we are seeing here is, A, who knows what, because it’s Donald Trump — who knows what entity is going to show up, in what uniforms, to do what? And what we are seeing is absolutely no interest in collaboration.
But I think it’s very important not to overstate what’s really happening here. When, you know, the president talks about how he’s going to take over cities — really? Is that what you’re going to do? In Chicago, there are 12,500 active police officers. The last number I heard coming from the president was he was going to send 150 federal agents of some sort. Really? Wow! That’s 1%. That is 1% of the normal police force in Chicago.
So we should not lose sight of the reality that what Donald Trump always does is he’s got some shiny object that he’s shining over here, and he wants us to pay attention to it because he’s doing some dirt in some other location. Here, he obviously is doing a pretty effective job of trying to distract from his incredible failures, including his failures with the pandemic and with the economy at this point.
So, it remains to be seen what exactly he’ll do, if anything, in Philadelphia. It remains to be seen to what extent this is all fluff. Obviously, there have been some pretty terrible things that have happened in Portland, that appear — without perfect information, because I don’t have perfect information, but they appear to be illegal, and blatantly so. All I can say is, if federal authorities want to come to Philadelphia and break the law, then they will face the law like everyone else.
AMY GOODMAN: DA Krasner, can you talk about your family’s history? And would you say that President Trump’s move, calling for a “surge” of these federal agents throughout the country, particularly in Democratic cities — would you call President Trump fascist?
LARRY KRASNER: I would say President Trump is definitely a wannabe fascist. I’m not sure he can spell the word, but he definitely is someone who’s in love with dictators. He’s in love with authoritarianism, brutality, racism, division, hate.
His playbook is essentially the same playbook as the white supremacist playbook, which is, you know, as we see with the Proud Boys, the “boogaloo” movement, all this kind of stuff, we see that they are trying to take advantage of the peaceful protests, which is the vast majority of what it is, around George Floyd to become agent provocateurs, to get into it and to cause violence that wouldn’t have been there otherwise. So, once they have caused it, they can say, “Look at these people. Look at what these Black people do. Or look at what these left-wing people do.” Well, they’re not doing it. The Proud Boys are doing it. The “boogaloo” crew are doing it, because, as they have repeatedly stated, they’re looking to have a second civil war, as absurd as that may all sound.
It’s the same tactic that we’re seeing with Donald Trump right now. We have cities that have not had unrest, that have not had an uprising for weeks. The only thing that’s been happening in Philly for weeks has been a moderate amount of peaceful protest. And yet the president is announcing to the nation that Philadelphia is out of control. No, it’s not. I’m here. I live here. The police commissioner is here. We all see what’s going on. There is no problem. There is no crisis that would in any way require federal intervention. But, once again, if he sends troops of some sort, federal agents of some sort, in here to stir things up, to requisition people, to beat people up, if he sends it in, he’s going to cause unrest. So, what I’m saying is, he is acting as an agent provocateur by using his authority to send people in.
And what is the real purpose of this, from his perspective? It’s probably not a second civil war. He’s much more shortsighted and narcissistic than that. His real purpose is to distract from his dismal record, the fact that his campaign is dropping like a stone.
In terms of my family history, you know, I mean, it’s just — we have a lot of people — or they’re almost all passed now, but we have a lot of people in the family who were of an age that they volunteered and they served in World War II. My dad served in the Pacific on a Pacific island at an airbase. I had an uncle who was in Germany. He was an artillery spotter, which is one lousy job to have, because you’re in between both sides watching the shells that have been fired from both sides, and hopefully they don’t land on you. That’s a tough thing to do. I had another one who lost most of his hearing serving on a Navy vessel.
And going a little further than that, if you look to my wife’s side of the family, her father was career military. He was not in World War II, but he flew planes in a couple different wars and eventually ended up being a pilot for an ambassador to Afghanistan, which is where my wife lived when she was a young child.
So, we go way back when it comes to this. That’s not to say we’re any different or any better. But we have someone here who avoided military service, not because he was a conscientious objector, but because he’s entitled, privileged, cowardly and lazy. We have this person pretending to be some kind of wannabe fascist. And it is intolerable. This is nothing that we can accept in the United States.
AMY GOODMAN: Larry Krasner, I want to ask you about the people still locked up in Philadelphia’s jails despite the higher risk of contracting COVID. Most of them are waiting for their day in court, which has been disrupted due to the spread of the virus. Many are bail-eligible. The Philadelphia Community Bail Fund has been actively bailing people out during this time. Some activists have focused in particular on young people who are still imprisoned. This is a member of the Youth Art & Self-Empowerment Project named Briyanna describing what it was like when her juvenile son was recently incarcerated during COVID.
BRIYANNA: I worried. I worried about my son. Is he eating? Is he safe? Is he cold? I also couldn’t see my son because of COVID-19, which made it even worse. So there was 14 days that I only had a phone conversation with my son. There were no hugs. There were no kisses.
AMY GOODMAN: DA Larry Krasner, do you think there are people locked up right now who should not be, given the health risks? What is your office doing to release more people from what have been called death traps? I’m looking at an ad by the Philadelphia Community Bail Fund. They said, “DA Larry Krasner, drop the charges, not your knee.” They said charged more than 400 people in the last two days of protests — this was in the last weeks — kept over a hundred Black youth in detention during COVID, incarcerated thousands of Black Philadelphians in cages at risk of death during COVID. Can you respond to these accusations or criticisms against you?
LARRY KRASNER: Well, you know, the problem with a lot of these criticisms is they’re completely out of context, and, frankly, cynically out of context. When we came into office, we were coming off of a city that had 10,000 people in county custody. We started with 6,500. We knocked it down to about 5,000 within a year and a half, which was the quickest progress towards decarceration, essentially, in the history of the city. And we are currently at 4,000. This is the lowest rate of incarceration in Philadelphia since about 1985. 1985. And we have gotten there through a lot of extremely diligent and careful work.
But, you know, I would be misleading you if I told you I thought that people who were accused of murdering four people should be out of custody. They should not. They should be in custody before they kill five people. And I’m not making that up. We have someone sitting there who literally was a contract killer and who is associated with four different murders. We have someone else associated with five.
Once again, you know, let’s talk about the juveniles. When we came in, there were about 650 juveniles in custody, which was lower than it had been in the past. There is now on the — it changes every day, of course, but there’s now something like 140. It is not enough simply to say that someone is a juvenile. If that juvenile has paralyzed another juvenile by shooting them in the back of the head behind a dumpster, there is a role that has to be played by the state in order to make sure that we do not have the slaughter of people on the street. So, I do not have any reservation about saying that there are some people who need to be in custody even under these circumstances.
But this office, working closely with the Public Defender’s Office, has done a remarkable job of diminishing the harm that could have come from Philadelphia’s jails becoming an epicenter. They have not become that. We have experienced — based on my limited information, we’ve experienced a total of two deaths among the inmate population, I believe, two deaths among the staff population. But as we compare that to national averages, a lot of the extremely hard work that we have done, and that we’re continuing to do, has paid off.
It’s a real problem. I mean, I’m not going to kid you. It’s a real problem, in a city where ordinarily you have a hundred new criminal cases a day, that there’s no easy exit door to the jail, because the courts are closed. And they’ve been closed for months, and it does not look like they’re going to open up quickly. But all things considered, when we are objective and fair about it, I think we’ve actually done an excellent job of keeping this population down, of being very surgical about which individuals need to be in custody at this time.
I also think it is fair to say that — and I’m not going to get specific with which bail fund, but, you know, there’s one of these bail funds that took a young man who had no prior record and was racking up one drug case after another in a very short period of time, in a way that anyone experienced in criminal justice would say signifies that this person needs to be held in custody, needs an intervention. But once again, the bail fund, you know, went charging in, paid that person’s bail. He came out and was killed on a corner shortly thereafter. He was on the corner, because the bail fund, even though this young man, who was only 18-and-a-half when it started, had collected six consecutive drug cases in a very short period of time, they ran and paid his bail and got him out the last time.
We’ve seen another case — it was a domestic violence case — where the defendant had viciously harmed his long-term partner in a number of different states, been convicted for it, and, over the objection of the DA’s Office, who were trying to protect her, bail fund looked at none of that, ran and paid it, and she then suffered a terrible sexual assault at the hands of the same person.
So, it is not the case that every single person should get out all of the time. It is not the case that simply saying, no matter what the offense, no matter what the record, and no matter what the circumstances, everyone should get out. The life of that woman mattered. The life of that young man whose bail was paid and died mattered. It all matters, and we have to be careful about these things.


democracynow--2020-07-23--Headlines for July 23, 2020

Headlines for July 23, 2020

President Trump has announced he is sending a “ surge ” of federal officers into Chicago , Albuquerque and other large Democrat-run cities , claiming it is needed to combat a rise in crime .
President Donald Trump : “ I am announcing that the Department of Justice will immediately surge federal law enforcement to the city of Chicago .
The FBI , ATF , DEA , U.S .
Marshals Service and Homeland Security will together be sending hundreds of skilled law enforcement officers to Chicago to help drive down violent crime.
” Trump ’ s announcement came as he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to Portland , Oregon , where unidentified federal officers have attacked antiracist protesters and even snatched activists off the streets in unmarked vans .
The Portland City Council has voted to end cooperation between local police and federal law enforcement .
On Wednesday night , federal forces fired tear gas at protesters once again .
Among those hit was Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler , who also serves as police commissioner .
Meanwhile , the American Civil Liberties Union has sued the Department of Homeland Security , U.S .
Marshals Service and the city @ @ @ @ @ @ @ cared for injured protesters .

President Trump has announced he is sending a “surge” of federal officers into Chicago, Albuquerque and other large Democrat-run cities, claiming it is needed to combat a rise in crime.
President Donald Trump: “I am announcing that the Department of Justice will immediately surge federal law enforcement to the city of Chicago. The FBI, ATF, DEA, U.S. Marshals Service and Homeland Security will together be sending hundreds of skilled law enforcement officers to Chicago to help drive down violent crime.”
Trump’s announcement came as he faces increasing criticism for deploying paramilitary-style units to Portland, Oregon, where unidentified federal officers have attacked antiracist protesters and even snatched activists off the streets in unmarked vans. The Portland City Council has voted to end cooperation between local police and federal law enforcement. On Wednesday night, federal forces fired tear gas at protesters once again. Among those hit was Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler, who also serves as police commissioner. Meanwhile, the American Civil Liberties Union has sued the Department of Homeland Security, U.S. Marshals Service and the city of Portland for attacking medics while they cared for injured protesters.


democracynow--2020-07-24--Noam Chomsky: Trump Is Using Pandemic to Enrich Billionaires as Millions Lose Work & Face Eviction

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : You talk about those in power , Noam Chomsky , profiting enormously now .
You have Goldman Sachs reporting over $ 2.4 billion in second-quarter profits .
A new study by Americans for Tax Fairness found U.S. billionaires have added $ 584 billion to their personal wealth since March .
That is a greater amount than the budget shortfalls of 23 U.S. states .
They are making these profits in the midst of the pandemic , on the one hand , when @ @ @ @ @ @ @ who are being crushed , who are soon to be evicted , when we are talking about an economic situation , the unemployed to a level we have not seen since the Great Depression .
You write about this and speak about this .
How do people dig themselves out ?
What needs to happen right now in this country , Noam ?
NOAM CHOMSKY : What you ’ re describing is—the country is in kind of a parody of the way it usually runs .
It is a country run essentially by @ @ @ @ @ @ @ influence on the government and which describes quite correct—it is kind of symbolized by the richest man in the world , Jeff Bezos , who made $ 13 billion in a single day .
They ’ re just running wild , using Trump and the administration or using the cover of the pandemic to increase their dedication to enriching the very rich and the corporate sector who are , of course , eating it up .
They love it .
I mentioned military industry .
That is another example of it .
You @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to try to impose the maximal rule of extreme wealth and corporate power running parallel to the Mitch McConnell-Trump campaign to pack the judiciary top to bottom with young ultra-right Federalist Society lawyers who will be able to make sure that no matter what the public wants , nothing but their ultra-reactionary policies will ever be able to be implemented for at least a generation .
They are running on all stops to try to maintain what they have succeeded in largely getting through the neoliberal period , the last 40 years , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of political power , general population stagnating , declining , even to the point where there is an increase in mortality in the last few years among working age people , white working age men and women , mostly men , some women .
Nothing like this happens in functioning developed societies .
The Republicans know very well that they are a minority party .
Trump , in fact , pointed out not long ago that if there were fair elections , the Republicans would never win political office .
The country , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ has been pretty much a one-party state , the business party .
Two factions .
They have changed over time .
The last several decades pretty much since Gingrich , and extensively since McConnell , the Republicans have just gone off the spectrum , off the political spectrum .
If you look at international rankings , they ’ re alongside the European parties with neofascist backgrounds .
Political analysts , serious political analysts , describe them as a radical insurgency that has abandoned parliamentary politics .
We talked a couple of days ago @ @ @ @ @ @ @ work has shown the extent to which they ’ re desperately trying to purge electoral lists to prevent the wrong people from voting so somehow they can hang on .
All of this is happening in parallel along with what you describe , the massive enrichment of the superrich and the corporate sector under the cover of the pandemic .
Every couple of days , some other executive decision or decision of one of the corporate clones , the corporate figures Trump placed in charge of the various agencies like the EPA , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in the face and enrich the rich , like cutting back pollution standards , which , of course , is great for the coal companies .
They are hanging on by a thread , but we can keep them going longer to cause maximal destruction to organized human society .
Also the pollution which right in the middle of a respiratory pandemic , increasing pollution , of course , maximizes deaths .
And it is selective .
It is the people who live near the polluting factories .
Who are they ?
The @ @ @ @ @ @ @ live anywhere else .
You don ’ t see Goldman Sachs executives living there .
What you see is poor , black , Hispanic , Puerto Ricans .
They are the ones who will take the brunt of it .
They are already suffering much worse from the pandemic .
This will make it worse .
It is kind of similar to what you see in Brazil where Bolsonaro is quite happy to see—the indigenous populations of the Amazonian region are facing literal genocide , first from destruction of the forest , now @ @ @ @ @ @ @ live hundreds of miles from the nearest [ inaudible ] station .
Illegal loggers come in and spread the pandemic ; they die .
Do you think Bolsonaro minds ?
He thinks they ought to be eliminated .
He said so .
“ We don ’ t need those people , so let ’ s get rid of them altogether.
” So let ’ s get rid of the people living near the polluting industries .
Who needs them ?
They vote the wrong way , anyway .
They ’ re the wrong @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , world-renowned political dissident , linguist , and author , laureate professor in the Department of Linguistics at the University of Arizona and Professor Emeritus at Massachusetts Institute of Technology , where he taught for more than 50 years .
Next week , we will bring you more of Noam Chomsky .
That does it for our broadcast .
If you would like to get our newsletter daily , text the word “ DemocracyNow ” to 66866 .
Democracy Now !
is produced with Renée Feltz , Mike Burke , Deena Guzder , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Wills , Tami Woronoff , Charina Nadura , Sam Alcoff , Tey Astudillo , John Hamilton , Robby Karran , Hany Massoud .
I am Amy Goodman with Nermeen Shaikh .
Thanks so much for joining us .
Stay safe , save lives , wear a mask .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: You talk about those in power, Noam Chomsky, profiting enormously now. You have Goldman Sachs reporting over $2.4 billion in second-quarter profits. A new study by Americans for Tax Fairness found U.S. billionaires have added $584 billion to their personal wealth since March. That’s a greater amount than the budget shortfalls of 23 U.S. states. They’re making these profits in the midst of the pandemic. And on the one hand, when you need stimulus packages to help those who are being crushed, who are soon to be evicted, when we’re talking about an economic situation, the unemployed to a level we haven’t seen since the Great Depression, you write about this and speak about this. How do people dig themselves out? What needs to happen right now in this country, Noam?
NOAM CHOMSKY: Well, what you’re describing is the way that it’s kind of a— the country is in a kind of a parody of the way it usually runs. It’s a country run by major — essentially, by the corporate sector, which has overwhelming influence on the government. And what you describe is quite correct: It’s kind of symbolized by the richest man in the world, Jeff Bezos, who made $13 billion in a single day. They’re just running wild, using the — Trump and the administration are using the cover of the pandemic to increase their dedication to enriching the very rich and the corporate sector, who are, of course, eating it up. They love it.
I mentioned military industry. That’s another example of it. Sure, that’s — you might regard it as a last-ditch effort to try to impose the maximal rule of extreme wealth and corporate power, running parallel to the Mitch McConnell-Trump campaign to pack the judiciary, top to bottom, with young, ultra-right Federalist Society lawyers, who will make sure — be able to make sure that no matter what the public wants, nothing but their ultra-reactionary policies will ever be able to be implemented for at least a generation.
They’re running on all stops to try to maintain what they have succeeded in largely getting through the neoliberal period, the last 40 years: enormous concentration of wealth, concentration of political power, general population stagnating, declining, even to the point where there’s an increase in mortality in the last few years among working-age people, working-age men and women, mostly men, some women. Nothing like this happens in functioning developed societies.
The Republicans know very well that they’re a minority party. Trump, in fact, pointed out not long ago that if there were fair elections, the Republicans would never win political office. The country, basically, for a long time, has been pretty much a one-party state — the business party, two factions. They’ve changed over time.
The last several decades, pretty much since Gingrich, and extensively since McConnell, the Republicans have just gone off the spectrum, off the political spectrum. If you look at international rankings, they’re ranked alongside the European parties with neofascist backgrounds. Political analysts, serious political analysts, describe them as a radical insurgency that’s abandoned parliamentary politics. We talked a couple days ago with Greg Palast, whose very interesting work has shown the extent to which they’re desperately trying to purge electoral lists to prevent the wrong people from voting, so somehow they can hang on.
All of this is happening in parallel along with what you describe: the massive enrichment of the superrich and the corporate sector under the cover of the pandemic. Every couple of days, some other executive decision or decision of one of Trump’s corporate clones, the corporate figures who Trump placed in charge of the various agencies, like the EPA, passing further legislation to smash the public in the face and enrich the rich, like cutting back pollution standards, which, of course, is great for the coal companies. They’re hanging on by a thread, but we can keep them going longer to cause maximal destruction to organized human society. Also the pollution, which right in the middle of a respiratory pandemic, increasing pollution, of course, maximizes deaths.
And it’s selective. It’s the people who live near the polluting factories. Who are they? The people who can’t afford to live anywhere else. You don’t see Goldman Sachs executives living there. What you see is poor, Black, Hispanic, Puerto Ricans. They’re the ones who will take the brunt of it. They’re already suffering much worse from the pandemic. This will make it worse.
It’s kind of similar to what you see in Brazil, where Bolsonaro is quite happy to see the — the Indigenous populations of the Amazonian region are facing literal genocide, first from destruction of the forest, now from the pandemic. Many of them live hundreds of miles from the nearest health station. Illegal loggers come in and spread the pandemic; they die. Do you think Bolsonaro minds? He thinks they ought to be eliminated. He said so. “We don’t need those people, so let’s get rid of them altogether.” So, let’s get rid of the people living near the polluting industries. Who needs them? They vote the wrong way, anyway. They’re the wrong color.
This is something happening in the world under the U.S. aegis, which is literally unparalleled in modern history — again, with the single exception of the true fascist states — in developed society. There’s no other words to describe it.
AMY GOODMAN: Noam Chomsky, world-renowned political dissident, linguist and author, laureate professor in the Department of Linguistics at the University of Arizona and professor emeritus at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, where he taught for more than 50 years. Next week, we’ll bring you more of Noam Chomsky.
That does it for our broadcast. If you’d like to get our newsletter daily, text the word “democracynow” to 66866. Democracy Now! is produced with Renée Feltz, Mike Burke, Deena Guzder, Libby Rainey, Nermeen Shaikh, Carla Wills, Tami Woronoff, Charina Nadura, Sam Alcoff, Tey-Marie Astudillo, John Hamilton, Robby Karran, Hany Massoud. I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh. Thanks so much for joining us. Stay safe. Save lives. Wear a mask.


democracynow--2020-07-24--"Man. Woman. Camera. Person. TV.": Noam Chomsky Responds to Trump Bragging He Aced a Dementia Test

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
, The Quarantine Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman , with Nermeen Shaikh .
We are spending the hour with Noam Chomsky , world-renowned political dissident , linguist , and author , laureate professor in the Department of Linguistics at the University of Arizona , Tucson , and Professor Emeritus at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology , where he taught for more than 50 years .
Democracy Now !
’ s Nermeen Shaikh and I spoke @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : I took a test .
I said to the doctor , it was Dr. Ronny Jackson , I said “ is there some kind of a test , an acuity test ?
” And he said , “ There actually is , ” and he named it , whatever it might be .
And it was 30 or 35 questions .
The first questions are very easy .
The last questions are much more difficult , like a memory question .
It ’ s like you ’ ll go “ person , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ” So they would say , “ Could you repeat that ?
” So I said , “ Yeah .
So it ’ s person , woman , man , camera , TV.
” “ OK , that ’ s very good.
” If you get it in order , you get extra points .
AMY GOODMAN : President Trump saying he aced this test for dementia .
He keeps talking about acing this cognitive test , a test that is given to see if someone is suffering from dementia , some kind @ @ @ @ @ @ @ t an IQ test .
He continually goes back to it , even when told , “ You ’ re asking to identify an elephant .
You are being asked to draw a clock , to count back from 100 by sevens.
” This is a test to see if a person is becoming senile .
Is the United States being run by a madman , Noam Chomsky ?
NOAM CHOMSKY : As you say , the test is given for dementia , incipient dementia , a serious mental illness .
But what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , before speaking before an adoring crowd , raises his eyes to heaven and calls himself the chosen one ?
What can you say about an administration where the secretary of state says , “ Perhaps Trump has been sent by the good lord to save Israel from Iran ” ?
The country is being run by madmen .
There is no parallels to this .
In fact , you can see it in everything that is happening .
You go back to late March or so , the United States was about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of COVID-19 cases and deaths .
It was roughly the same .
Take a look at the chart since .
Europe has sharply declined .
It is not over the problems , not doing as well as Asia or Oceania , but way down .
The United States remains stable .
You look at the medical journals , they point out that Trump ’ s malfeasance and incompetence , whatever , just lack of concern for the welfare of the population , has killed maybe 100,000 people .
That ’ s a pretty @ @ @ @ @ @ @ he is flailing around wildly to find somebody to blame it on .
That is why he is using the current opportunity to send quasi-military forces , more or less paramilitary , to set up violent confrontations with Democratic mayors and governors .
And there ’ s no precedent for sending militarized forces to control a city in opposition—when there is total opposition on the part of the mayor , the governor , the senators , obviously the population .
This is treating the country like occupied territory , with the totally clear @ @ @ @ @ @ @ which will somehow save him from electoral defeat .
And if there is defeat , he may just refuse to leave the White House , as he intimated on Fox News the other day , in which case you really have to ask , what happens next ?
Does the military move in and remove him ?
Or what happens when—or militias start surrounding the White House ?
We don ’ t know .
This is a situation which has never arisen in a functioning democracy apart from the fascist takeovers in Italy @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in the interwar period .
Trump is sometimes , even by experts in the topic , called moving toward fascism .
I think , frankly , that gives him much too much credit .
Fascism was a serious ideology .
I think it ’ s well beyond his ken or concern .
This is more like a minor dictator in a small country that is subjected to military coups over the years .
There is no conception of introducing real fascist ideology .
In fact , in some ways , we are almost @ @ @ @ @ @ @ systems were based on the principle that the powerful state under the leadership of the ruling party and the maximal leader should basically control everything .
They should run and control the society , including the business community .
We are almost the opposite .
It is the business community controlling the government .
And any infringement on their power would lead to a kind of confrontation that is almost unimaginable .
So I don ’ t think it is fascism .
It is essentially tin-pot dictatorship .
And he is desperate , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to try to keep himself from being tossed out of the White House .
How this will eventuate , we don ’ t know , but it is going to be a very difficult couple of months ahead .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now! The Quarantine Report. I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh. We’re spending the hour with Noam Chomsky, world-renowned political dissident, linguist and author, laureate professor in the Department of Linguistics at the University of Arizona, Tucson, and professor emeritus at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, where he taught for more than 50 years. Democracy Now!’s Nermeen Shaikh and I spoke to him Thursday.
AMY GOODMAN: Noam Chomsky, I wanted to play for you what President Trump said on Fox News about the cognitive test he recently took, saying it was difficult. PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I took a test. I said to the doctor — it was Dr. Ronny Jackson — I said, “Is there some kind of a test, an acuity test?” And he said, “There actually is,” and he named it, whatever it might be. And it was 30 or 35 questions. The first questions are very easy. The last questions are much more difficult, like a memory question. It’s like you’ll go “person, woman, man, camera, TV.” So, they’d say, “Could you repeat that?” So, I said, “Yeah. So it’s person, woman, man, camera, TV.” “OK, that’s very good.” If you get it in order, you get extra points.
AMY GOODMAN: So, that’s President Trump just a few days ago. He keeps talking about acing this cognitive test, a test that’s given to see if someone is suffering from dementia, some kind of cognitive difficulties. This isn’t an IQ test. He continually goes back to it, even when told, “You’re asking to identify an elephant. You’re being asked to draw a clock, to count back from 100 by sevens.” This is a test to see if a person is becoming senile. Is the United States being run by a madman, Noam Chomsky?
NOAM CHOMSKY: As you say, the test is given for dementia, incipient dementia, a serious mental illness. But what can you say about a person who, before speaking before an adoring crowd, raises his eyes to heaven and calls himself the chosen one? What can you say about an administration where the secretary of state says, “Perhaps Trump has been sent by the good lord to save Israel from Iran”? The country is being run by madmen.
There’s no parallels to this. In fact, you can see it in everything that’s happening. You go back to late March or so, the United States was about the same as Europe in number of COVID-19 cases and deaths. It was roughly the same. Take a look at the chart since. Europe has sharply declined. It’s not over the problems. It’s not doing as well as Asia or Oceania, but way down. The United States remains stable. You look at the medical journals, they point out that Trump’s malfeasance and incompetence, whatever, just lack of concern for the welfare of the population, has killed maybe 100,000 people. That’s a pretty significant slaughter.
That’s why he’s flailing around wildly to find somebody to blame it on. That’s why he’s using the current opportunity to send quasi-military forces, more or less paramilitary, to set up violent confrontations with Democratic mayors and governors. I mean, there’s no precedent for sending militarized forces to control a city in opposition — when there’s total opposition on the part of the mayor, the governor, the senators, obviously the population. This is treating the country like occupied territory, and with the purpose, totally clear purpose, of trying to set up confrontations which will somehow save him from electoral defeat.
And if there is defeat, he may just refuse to leave the White House, as he intimated on Fox News the other day, in which case you really have to ask: What happens next? Does the military move in and remove him? Or what happens when armed militias start surrounding the White House? We don’t know. This is a situation which has never arisen in a functioning democracy, apart from the fascist takeovers in Italy, Germany, some other countries, in the interwar period.
Trump is sometimes, even by experts in the topic, called moving towards fascism. I think, frankly, that gives him much too much credit. Fascism was a serious ideology. I think it’s well beyond his ken or concern. This is more like a minor dictator in a kind of small country that’s subjected to military coups over the years. There’s no conception of introducing real fascist ideology. In fact, in some ways, we’re almost the opposite of it. The fascist systems were based on the principle that the powerful state, under the leadership of the ruling party and the maximal leader, should basically control everything. They should run and control the society, including the business community. We’re almost the opposite: It’s the business community controlling the government. And any infringement on their power would lead to a kind of confrontation that is almost unimaginable.


democracynow--2020-07-24--Noam Chomsky on Trump’s Troop Surge to Democratic Cities & Whether He’ll Leave Office if He Loses

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
, Democracynow.org , The Quarantine Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman .
Barely 100 days before the presidential election in November , this week President Trump announced he is sending a surge of federal officers into large Democrat-run cities like Chicago .
This comes after Trump first sent federal agents to Portland , Oregon , where the camouflage-clad paramilitary agents attacked antiracist protesters , even snatched activists off the streets in unmarked vans .
On Wednesday @ @ @ @ @ @ @ gas at protesters in Portland once again , among those hit was Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler , who also serves as Portland ’ s police commissioner .
The response to Trump ’ s outrageous and likely unconstitutional deployment of federal agents has been resoundingly critical .
Oregon Governor Kate Brown denounced the “ secret police abducting people , ” and the Oregon Attorney General has now sued several of the federal agencies involved .
In the streets , a contingent of women has grown nightly , protecting protesters by forming a wall of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the federal agents as “ essentially fascist , ” and warned , “ If the line is not drawn in the sand right now , America may be staring down the barrel of martial law in the middle of a presidential election.
” Well , for more on this and much more , we spend the rest of the hour with Noam Chomsky , the world-renowned political dissident , linguist , and author , laureate professor in the Department of Linguistics at the University of Arizona and Professor Emeritus at Massachusetts Institute of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ than 50 years .
He spoke with Democracy Now !
’ s Nermeen Shaikh and I on Thursday .
We reached him at his home in Tucson , Arizona , where he is sheltering in place with his wife , Valeria .
I began by asking Professor Chomsky to respond to the surge of federal agents Trump is promising to unleash on the country .
His chances of victory depend on his doing something dramatic .
He was trying very hard to set up military confrontations that you mentioned , martial law .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
He might even be able to try to cancel the elections .
There is no telling what he would do .
He is completely desperate .
This is like the actions of some tin-pot dictator in a neo-colony somewhere , small country that has a military coup every couple of years .
There is no historical precedent for anything like this in a functioning democratic society .
If he could send Blackshirts out in the streets , he would be happy to do that .
NERMEEN SHAIKH : Professor Chomsky , what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Senator Ron Wyden that we may be headed—the U.S. may be headed towards the imposition of martial law .
You ’ ve just called Trump psychotic , previously having referred to him as a sociopath .
And pointed to the differences between—the massive differences between Biden and Trump when we had you on earlier this year , saying about Biden that he is pretty empty , you can push him one way or another .
And you ’ ve also said that this is the most crucial election in human history , literally @ @ @ @ @ @ @ interview just on Sunday , Trump refused to commit to accepting the outcome of the 2020 election .
NOAM CHOMSKY : Well , there are various maneuvers that theoretically they might undertake .
One might be to try to throw the election to the—to refuse to accept the vote , to make sure that the Republican governors don ’ t authorize their own electors .
This is routine and automatic , but technically , they could refuse .
Could throw it into the House where there is enough Republicans in the House to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of farce that you find , as I said , in some tin-pot dictatorship .
That is one possibility .
Another possibility is he might just try to call out the military to impose martial law .
The point is , he can not lose .
First of all , he is psychologically incapable of losing .
Secondly , if he loses , if he leaves the White House , he may be facing serious legal problems .
Now he has immunity , but there is a whole swamp around him .
He @ @ @ @ @ @ @ investigated .
He fired all the inspectors general when they were beginning to investigate it .
The federal attorney for the Southern District of New York , that ’ s Wall Street and so on , the most important , started looking into it .
Fired him , replaced him with a flack from the private equity industry .
There is nothing he would not do to try to maintain office .
Virtually nothing you can think of .
This is a major crisis .
There is been one or other form of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , and 250 years here , and nothing like this has happened before .
We are dealing with a figure who is out of the political spectrum for functioning democracies .
And he has a political party behind him which by now has just turned into cowardly sycophants .
They are terrified to cross His Imperial Majesty .
He has got a popular base of heavily armed , angry white supremacist militias .
There is no telling what he would do .
I think the country , by November , may be a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , given U.S. power .
I won ’ t run through the details but it is a major catastrophe looming .
We have some time to deal with it .
Four more years of Trump might well take us to irreversible tipping points .
At the very least , it will make it much harder to confront this growing crisis .
There is no stopping the polar ice caps , the ice sheets from melting , the Amazon forest from being destroyed .
Large parts of the world might become simply unlivable .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ of maybe one or two feet by the end of the century .
Much more , later .
This is all totally catastrophic .
You can ’ t conceive of how human society can survive in an organized way .
At the same time , Trump is dedicated to destroying the arms control regime .
Last August he terminated the Reagan-Gorbachev INF treaty , which helped control the potential for nuclear war growing from a European conflict .
Now he has dismantled the Open Skies Treaty that goes back to Eisenhower .
That @ @ @ @ @ @ @ demands to try to delay negotiations on the new START treaty , which the Russians have been pleading for for a long time .
This is due for renewal in a few months .
It may already be too late to renegotiate it , the last of the arms control treaties .
He is now threatening to carry out nuclear weapons tests , tests that would undermine the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty , almost 30 years .
The United States never ratified it , but it has lived up to it .
All @ @ @ @ @ @ @ other countries to react the same way .
The arms industry is of course euphoric .
They ’ re getting huge new contracts to develop major weapons to destroy all of us .
This encourages others to do the same .
So there are new contracts down the road for hopeless means to try to defend ourselves against the monstrosities that we ’ re helping to construct .
This is Trump , racing toward this , apparently enjoying it .
You can ’ t describe it in normal—the term you used , sociopath @ @ @ @ @ @ @ can be contained within the constitutional structures of the United States , we don ’ t know .
I might say that there is another country that is trying to mimic the United States , Brazil , with another ridiculous dictator , Jair Bolsonaro , who ’ s trying to be a clone of Trump .
He was being investigated by—he and his family involved in all kind of sordid criminal activities , came under investigation .
He fired the investigators .
But that was blocked by the courts in Brazil .
Not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , purged the executive , nothing from the courts .
Nothing from the Republicans in Congress .
Brazil at least has a thin barrier to another military dictatorship .
The United States is in worse shape .
This is pretty serious .
There ’ s been nothing like it .
There are no precedents that have any real relevance .
AMY GOODMAN : MIT Professor Emeritus Noam Chomsky , linguist , author , activist .
When we come back , I ask him about President Trump bragging about acing a cognitive test for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in a minute .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The Quarantine Report. I’m Amy Goodman.
Barely 100 days before the presidential election in November, this week President Trump announced he’s sending a “surge” of federal officers into large Democrat-run cities, like Chicago. This comes after Trump first sent federal agents to Portland, Oregon, where the camouflage-clad paramilitary agents attacked antiracist protesters, even snatched activists off the streets in unmarked vans. On Wednesday night, when federal forces fired tear gas at protesters in Portland once again, among those hit was Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler, who also serves as Portland’s police commissioner.
The response to Trump’s outrageous and likely unconstitutional deployment of federal agents has been resoundingly critical. Oregon Governor Kate Brown denounced the, quote, “secret police abducting people,” and the Oregon attorney general has now sued several of the federal agencies involved. In the streets, a contingent of women has grown nightly, protecting protesters by forming a “wall of moms.” Oregon Senator Ron Wyden described the federal agents as “essentially fascist,” and warned, quote, “If the line is not drawn in the sand right now, America may be staring down the barrel of martial law in the middle of a presidential election.”
Well, for more on this and much more, we spend the rest of the hour with Noam Chomsky, the world-renowned political dissident, linguist and author, laureate professor in the Department of Linguistics at the University of Arizona and professor emeritus at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, where he taught for more than 50 years.
He spoke with Democracy Now!'s Nermeen Shaikh and I on Thursday. We reached him at his home in Tucson, Arizona, where he's sheltering in place with his wife, Valeria. I began by asking Professor Chomsky to respond to the surge of federal agents Trump is promising to unleash on the country.
NOAM CHOMSKY: President Trump is desperate. His entire attention is this one issue on his mind: That’s the election. He has to cover up for the fact that he’s personally responsible for killing tens of thousands of Americans. It’s impossible to conceal that much longer. Just compare the United States with Europe or even Canada. It’s becoming a pariah state, to the point where Americans aren’t even permitted to travel to Europe. Europe won’t accept them.
His chances of victory depend on his doing something dramatic. He was trying very hard to set up military confrontations. You mentioned martial law. It’s moving towards martial law. He might even be able to try to cancel the elections. There’s no telling what he would do. He’s completely desperate. This is like the actions of some tin-pot dictator in a neo-colony somewhere, small country that has a military coup every couple of years. There’s no historical precedent for anything like this in a functioning democratic society. If he could send Blackshirts out in the streets, he’d be happy to do that.
Exactly how this will eventuate is very hard to say. The courts are unlikely to do anything. We may even get to a point where the military command has to decide which side they’re on. The man is desperate. He’s psychotic. He is in extreme danger of losing his position in the White House. He’ll do anything he can to prevent it.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, Professor Chomsky, I mean, you’ve just said — echoed the concerns of Senator Ron Wyden that we may be headed — the U.S. may be headed towards the imposition of martial law. You’ve just called Trump a psychotic, previously having referred to him as a sociopath, and pointed to the differences between — the massive differences between Biden and Trump, when we had you on earlier this year, saying about Biden that he’s pretty empty, you can push him one way or another. And you’ve also said that this is the most crucial election in human history, literally. Now, in a Fox News interview just on Sunday, Trump refused to commit to accepting the outcome of the 2020 election. PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I’m not a good loser. I don’t like to lose. I don’t lose too often. I don’t like to lose. CHRIS WALLACE: But are you gracious? PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: You don’t know until you see. It depends. I think mail-in voting is going to rig the election. I really do. CHRIS WALLACE: Are you suggesting that you might not accept the results of the election? PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I have to see. Look, Hillary Clinton asked me the same thing.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Could you comment on that and what your concerns are, in the event — I mean, you’ve just said that, in fact, the elections somehow could be canceled. Could you talk about under what conditions Trump might be able to do that? And in the event that they’re not canceled, what are your concerns, depending on the outcome of the vote, what Trump might do?
NOAM CHOMSKY: Well, there are various maneuvers that theoretically they might undertake. One might be to try to throw the election to the — to refuse to accept the vote, to make sure that the Republican governors don’t authorize their own electors. This is routine and automatic, but technically they could refuse. Could throw it into the House, where there’s enough Republicans in the House to essentially turn the election into the kind of farce that you find, as I said, in some tin-pot dictatorship. That’s one possibility. Another possibility is he might just try to call out the military to impose martial law.
And the point is, he cannot lose. First of all, he’s psychologically incapable of losing. Secondly, if he loses, if he leaves the White House, he may be facing serious legal problems. Now he has immunity, but there’s a whole swamp around him. He’s tried to keep it from being investigated. He fired all the inspectors general when they were beginning to investigate it. The federal attorney for the Southern District of New York — that’s Wall Street and so on, the most important — started looking into it. Fired him, replaced him with a flack from the private equity industry. There’s nothing he would not do to try to maintain office, virtually nothing you can think of.
This is a major crisis. There’s been one or other form of parliamentary democracy for 350 years in England, and 250 years here, and nothing like this has happened before. We’re dealing with a figure who’s out of the political spectrum for functioning democracies. And he has a political party behind him which by now has just turned into cowardly sycophants. They’re terrified to cross His Imperial Majesty. He’s got a popular base of heavily armed, angry white supremacist militias. There’s no telling what he would do. I think the country, by November, may be a different country — and a different world, given U.S. power.
But that’s kind of the immediate issue. The reason why this is the most important election in history has nothing to do with this. Four more years of Trump’s climate policies and nuclear policies might simply doom the human species, literally. We don’t have a lot of time to deal with the environmental crisis. It’s very serious. Every prediction that’s been made by scientists has been too conservative. Each time it comes out worse.
I won’t run through the details, but it’s a major catastrophe looming. We have some time to deal with it. Four more years of Trump might well take us to irreversible tipping points. At the very least, it will make it much harder to confront this growing crisis. There’s no stopping the polar ice caps from — ice sheets from melting, the Amazon forest from being destroyed. Large parts of the world might become simply unlivable. We’re talking about potential sea rises of maybe one or two feet by the end of the century, much more later. This is all totally catastrophic. You can’t conceive of how human society can survive in an organized way.
At the same time, Trump is dedicated to destroying the arms control regime. Last August, he terminated the Reagan-Gorbachev INF Treaty, which helped control the potential for nuclear war growing from a European conflict. Now he’s dismantled the Open Skies Treaty, goes back to Eisenhower. That’s gone. He’s imposed frivolous demands to try to delay negotiations on the New START treaty, which the Russians have been pleading for for a long time. This is due for renewal in a few months. May already be too late to renegotiate it, the last of the arms control treaties. He’s now threatening to carry out nuclear weapons tests, tests that would undermine the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, almost 30 years. The United States never ratified it, but it’s lived up to it.
All of this opens the door wider for other countries to react the same way. The arms industry is, of course, euphoric. They’re getting huge new contracts to develop major weapons to destroy all of us. This encourages others to do the same. So there are new contracts down the road for hopeless means to try to defend ourselves against the monstrosities that we’re helping to construct. This is Trump, racing towards this, apparently enjoying it. You can’t describe it in normal — the term you used, “sociopath,” is perfectly accurate. Whether this can be contained within the constitutional structures of the United States, we don’t know.
I mean, something similar to this happened in the United Kingdom a couple of months ago. Boris Johnson, the prime minister, prorogated the Parliament, closed the Parliament, so that he could ram through his version of Brexit. This was regarded by British legal experts as the worst crisis in 350 years. Well, in Britain, the Supreme Court nullified it. That’s unlikely to happen here.
I might say that there’s another country that’s trying to mimic the United States, Brazil, with another ridiculous dictator, Jair Bolsonaro, who’s trying to be a clone of Trump. He was being investigated by — he and his family, involved in all kind of sordid criminal activities, came under investigation. He fired the investigators. But that was blocked by the courts in Brazil. Not here. When Trump fired them all, purged the executive, nothing from the courts, nothing from the Republicans in Congress. Brazil at least has a thin barrier to another military dictatorship. The United States is in worse shape. This is pretty serious. There’s been nothing like it. There’s no precedents that have any real relevance.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, Professor Chomsky, you’ve mentioned again now the lack of safeguards there are in the U.S. to the possible imposition of martial law. But even in other countries around the world where martial law has been declared, it requires minimally the compliance of those who are in charge of the military. Do you see those in the U.S. going along with Trump in the event that he chooses to attempt to declare martial law?
NOAM CHOMSKY: As I say, there’s no precedent for this in any minimally functioning democracy. There are countries, many of them, where the military has taken over, often with U.S. support or even initiative, because we wanted to overthrow the civilian government. Nothing like this has happened since — aside from the fascist regimes, interwar regimes, totally different conditions, there’s just no precedent.
There was, as you may recall, a couple of weeks ago, press reports with headlines about how Trump is expanding his purge of the executive, which has almost been cleansed of any controls or dissident voices. He’s extending this to trying to purge the military. Well, there were speculations at the time that the purge of the military might be preparation for a plan to try to bring the military in to carry out something which would amount to a military coup.
The military so far has been refusing, pulled out the 82nd Airborne from Washington after Trump wanted it in there. They’ve been rejecting the proposals from the White House for more force and violence. That’s why he’s resorting to forces outside the official military in his current campaign to set up violent confrontations in Democratic-run cities, the plan right now. What the military would do, we don’t know.
If you look for precedents in Third World dictatorships, it would depend on how those at the colonel level react, people close in contract with troops. But we have no precedent for anything like this. There’s nothing like it. This is a unique situation in modern history, in the modern history of the democratic — more or less democratic societies.
AMY GOODMAN: MIT professor emeritus Noam Chomsky, linguist, author, activist. When we come back, I ask him about President Trump bragging about acing a cognitive test for dementia. All that and more, in a minute.