democracynow--2020-12-01--Vaccine Ethics: Doctor Warns Against Paying People to Get COVID Vaccine as U.S. Preps Distribution

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
I ’ m Amy Goodman , with Juan González , as we continue to look at the coronavirus pandemic spike here in the U.S. and how the vaccine will be distributed , as the CDC prepares to meet today to vote on who should be the first to get the vaccine once it ’ s available .
As distribution draws near , a recent poll suggests 42 % of Americans are reluctant to take the vaccine .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ former Maryland congressman and former presidential candidate John Delaney , are pushing to pay people to get vaccinated .
This is Delaney on CNN responding to criticism that the plan would cause an undue burden on people who are economically disadvantaged .
AMY GOODMAN : Well , for more on vaccine distribution , we ’ re joined by Dr. Monica Peek , a physician , associate professor of medicine and health disparities researcher at the University of Chicago .
She is meeting at the university today to determine how the university will roll @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , like other cities across the country , those killed by COVID-19 have been disproportionately African American and Latinx .
Dr .
Peek , welcome to Democracy Now !
It ’ s great to have you with us .
Why don ’ t you start off by responding to what the former congressman is proposing : If there is a problem with people being concerned about the vaccine , pay them to take it ?
DR. MONICA PEEK : No .
I agree with Dr. Pernell in that we should separate the two @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of vaccine implementation , because we don ’ t want the perception of vaccine safety and trust in the vaccine to cloud the waters of economic need .
And so , it is really important that people are able to look at the science , that people are able to follow the words of the scientists and the public health professionals and say , “ This is something that is safe that I believe in , that the trusted professionals are recommending that I take , ” and that they ’ re not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ financially I need to do , and I think there might be more risks associated with it because I ’ m having to be paid to take it , but because I ’ m so broke , I ’ m going to put my body in harm ’ s way in order to get this money.
” We don ’ t want people feeling like they have to make that choice .
So , we need to be able to disentangle those two things and make sure that we have given the people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ conversations are in gridlock .
That needs to , you know , fix itself .
We need to come to agreement about how to make sure that we are financially supporting the people that are in this economic crisis .
Separately , we need to figure out how we ’ re going to be able to ensure that we have the trust needed to vaccinate our entire U.S. population .
Everyone has got to get vaccinated quickly .
And so , those are two separate conversations .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : And on this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the getting everyone vaccinated , clearly , there will have to be steps and the decisions that are being made today in terms of priorities at the federal level .
How does this — even at your university or at the local level , how do the health professionals — what kind of things do they think about in terms of , after the first responders , the people in the healthcare system , who gets it next ?
DR. MONICA PEEK : Well , you know , there are millions of people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , a lot of thought has been going into how to fairly allocate the vaccine , way before we knew that the vaccines would even be ready .
So , it ’ s a miracle that we have two that are coming on the market this quickly .
And so , the National Academy of Sciences , Engineering and Medicine had been meeting already for months and has come up with recommendations .
The CDC is currently meeting .
Individual hospitals are coming up with their individual rollout plans .
But the general @ @ @ @ @ @ @ workers , people who are considered frontline healthcare workers , high-risk healthcare workers , people who are essential workers , those who are sick , have chronic medical problems , those who are living in close quarters , congregate facilities like nursing homes , homeless shelters , prisons , people that are elderly — all of these sort of high-risk populations , for whatever reason , based on your job , where you ’ re living , how sick you are , those are the populations that need to be vaccinated early — @ @ @ @ @ @ @ able to get people back into school , into settings where they can be close together .
And so , there ’ s a phased rollout , where we have , you know , a phase 1 , a phase 2 , a phase 3 , so that we can sort of , in an orderly fashion , figure out who ’ s going to go first , and ultimately get to make sure that everyone in the population goes .
And so , right now we ’ re trying to think about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ health workers and first responders .
And so , assuming that things happen on time and , December 10th , the first vaccine is made available and starts being shipped out , then the hospitals are beginning to look inwardly and think about how we ’ re going to vaccinate our own hospital employee population .
So , where I am , we have about 6,500 employees , a little more than that , and so we think that we can vaccinate everybody in a week .
So , if we did a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ could get everyone done within a week ’ s time .
And so , we are sort of looking at that kind of time frame .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : And when we talk about , for instance , first responders and folks in healthcare facilities , I ’ m assuming that , for instance , in a hospital , that includes not just the nurses and the doctors and the — but also the maintenance staff and the kitchen workers and all the other people that are part of that hospital complex .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ : That is true .
Everybody in the hospital is potentially exposed .
And we think about when you are a patient in the hospital , someone is coming in to clean your room .
Someone is coming in to deliver your food .
Someone ’ s coming in to take your temperature .
There are many people that come in and out of that door — deliver magazines — who are not your nurse or your physician but have contact with you .
There are people who are changing your bed linens @ @ @ @ @ @ @ having contact with soiled , contaminated , infectious products .
And so , everybody needs to be protected .
We are all in this together .
And so , the hospital is a bubble that we ’ re all in , and we are all at risk .
And so , yes , hospital workers means all hospital workers .
AMY GOODMAN : As we were just talking with Dr. Chris Pernell about the use of experimentation especially on the African American community , medical experimentation , one of your specialties is racial @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
This isn ’ t related just to disparities .
You said everyone could be vaccinated in a week , but these are a two-part vaccine .
So there is this question of : Will they use all the 40 million or so vaccines all at once and then wait for the next ones to be developed , or will they only use 20 million of them , so you can get the second vaccine in whatever that period is ?
And if you can talk about whether it conveys immunity , or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ will be asymptomatic and you can still spread it ?
All these questions about the vaccine .
But then also , in the wider population , since that ’ s what you deal with also outside of the University of Chicago , workers at the meatpacking plants , farmworkers , people who are undocumented , how do we ensure that they all have equal access ?
DR. MONICA PEEK : These are excellent questions and difficult questions , but ones that we are going to have to think about , how we have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ implementation .
And so , already it shows that this is not something that hospitals , in and of themselves , are going to do .
The vaccines are primarily going to be shipped to health departments , and then health departments then parcel them out to different institutions .
And so , in some cases , you know , hospitals will be working alongside other kinds of organizations to make sure that populations are effectively vaccinated .
And so , certainly , we are used for caring for patients , and so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ patients who are medically vulnerable , and making sure that they get vaccinated .
But some people — not everyone has a primary care physician .
Many people exist , unfortunately , without routine care .
But we need to make sure that everyone in this country is vaccinated .
And so we ’ re going to have to think about non-healthcare sites for vaccination , just like we ’ re doing for COVID testing , where we have pop-up testing sites .
We ’ re going to have to be more creative @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that don ’ t ordinarily show up at our doors for care and to ensure that we are reaching everyone for vaccine delivery .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : And , Dr .
Peek , I wanted to ask you — given the fact that the vaccine will be rolled out probably right around the time that the deaths and the hospitalizations from the virus are at record levels , there ’ s going to be enormous pressure by sectors of the population to get the vaccine .
I ’ m thinking , over the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a whole section of the American public that has had the ability to work remotely from home and therefore protect themselves , whereas those workers who have to go to work every day have been increasingly the ones most exposed .
So , shouldn ’ t the vaccine then be rolled out to those who are being forced to work every day as a result of the kind of jobs that they have ?
And won ’ t there be pressure from those who are generally more professional , more middle-class , who @ @ @ @ @ @ @ months , to also get the vaccine ?
How do you monitor ?
What ’ s going to be the monitoring process to make sure there ’ s not abuses ?
DR. MONICA PEEK : Yeah , you know , that ’ s an excellent question .
I am unaware of sort of the teeth or the penalties for people jumping in line and trying to abuse the system .
But what we have tried to put in place are parameters and a rollout system , so that — you know , think @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ship or something .
So , now we ’ re taking people who are having the blue cards .
These are the people who are due to get vaccinated .
You know , this week we ’ re doing everyone who ’ s a healthcare employee .
Next week we ’ re doing essential workers , for the next month .
And we ’ re going to figure out exactly how we find those people and whatever .
You know , those are the plans and implementation policies and things we ’ re @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in conjunction with city planners .
And this is where the rubber hits the road , and all of the infrastructure and planning has to start working and has been working .
But essential workers , that are keeping our cities and townships functioning , they ’ re high up on the list .
They ’ re part of the phase 2 .
And so , again , people who are performing critical functions for the city , as well as people who are carrying higher burdens of disease , are priority people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ people , because people who have been burdened by oppression , by structural inequities and racism , that has affected their health .
And the same structural inequities has meant that they have had limited opportunities as far as education and career advancement , so a lot of times they ’ re more likely to be working in essential worker jobs .
And so , many of the people that we ’ re talking about being high priorities for a medical reason or for an occupational reason are the same people .
And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to be priority individuals for getting vaccinated .
AMY GOODMAN : And , Dr. Monica Peek , maybe we ’ re getting ahead of ourselves here .
I mean , you have Stephen Hahn , head of the FDA , the doctor who ’ s been called to the White House because Mark Meadows , the chief of staff , who also came down with COVID , as did President Trump — of course , the White House is a hot spot because of the herd immunity approach President Trump has taken — @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the approval process .
It will be going to the FDA , but then it has to be approved by the CDC .
This has been done at unbelievable speed , which is both the excellent news but also a concern for people .
Is this being approved with the kind of scientific review that something like this , distributed on a mass basis , needs ?
Are you concerned about that — overall , the speed with which this is being done , and the fact that even before January 20th , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Day , you have tens of thousands of Americans who will die , and what President Trump needs to be doing right now , outside the virus — outside the vaccine , to ensure that people have access to masks and tests , something that continues to be a massive problem in this country ?
DR. MONICA PEEK : Yes , so much you just said right there .
So , where to start ?
I guess the easy answer is thinking about the current administration .
Given that Trump has been in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ ve seen what he can and can not do , and we ’ ve seen how he has handled and approached the COVID pandemic , I don ’ t have high hopes that his behavior will change between now and January 20th .
The best that I can hope for is that he will step out of the way , in enough way to make room for the incoming Biden administration and the transition team to be able to make some headway .
Biden has — the first thing he did was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ which is chocked full of scientists , health policy analysts , public health professionals , people who are very experienced in vaccine policy and know what they ’ re doing .
And so , getting these people together , who have already been thinking about COVID for years — well , not for years , but , you know , infectious disease for years and have been thinking about the COVID pandemic since it started — you know , that is where we need to be able to let these people flourish in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ resources .
But I do think that talking about just the rapidity with which these vaccines have moved forward , you ’ re right in that that ’ s a good thing , and then there ’ s some ambivalence there .
We want things to move as quickly as possible , as long as it ’ s safe .
We want them to move with the speed of light , as long as the science is there , and for them not to have been politically approved , but for them to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , that ’ s the fine line that we want to walk .
And so , when all the scientists have come together behind the idea of Project Warp Speed , that has been , so far , an effective scientific endeavor .
And so we want that kind of scientific collaboration to continue .
But what we don ’ t want is politicians getting in the mix and saying , “ I really need this to happen to ensure my reelection , ” or , you know , things that worry the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ things have worried the public .
And so , we can not undermine — or , we have already undermined .
We can not continue to undermine and erode the public trust in this process .
We need to have the public trust that this vaccine will be safe .
And we can not cut corners , because once the vaccine is here , if no one is willing to take it , all of this effort will have been for naught .
So we can ’ t , you know , speed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and then no one is willing to use it .
So we have to , as Dr. Pernell was saying , do the hard work .
We have to do it right .
We have to think right now , in advance , about how we ’ re going to make this vaccine acceptable to communities who are thinking that this is something that I ’ m not interested in , and be engaging right now in campaigns of truth-telling .
We have to be engaging with organizations that we know are trustworthy @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , we need to be building up that public health infrastructure , reinvesting in the CDC , giving them back the leadership and the ability to tell truth to the public , and giving them back the right to run the ship .
AMY GOODMAN : Dr. Monica Peek , I want to thank you so much for being with us , physician , associate professor of medicine and health disparities researcher at the University of Chicago .
There is so much to talk about , and we will get back to you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it ’ s World AIDS Day .
We ’ ll speak with professor Steven Thrasher in 30 seconds .
AMY GOODMAN : António Variações , a gay icon in Paraguay , who died from HIV/AIDS in 1984 .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now! I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan González, as we continue to look at the coronavirus pandemic spike here in the U.S. and how the vaccine will be distributed, as the CDC prepares to meet today to vote on who should be the first to get the vaccine once it’s available. As distribution draws near, a recent poll suggests 42% of Americans are reluctant to take the vaccine. In response, some, including the former Maryland congressman and former presidential candidate John Delaney, are pushing to pay people to get vaccinated. This is Delaney on CNN responding to criticism that the plan would cause an undue burden on people who are economically disadvantaged.
JOHN DELANEY: Those who are least economically so among us have suffered disproportionately under this pandemic. So many of those people are not sitting at home and Zooming into work; they’re actually getting on public transportation, going to grocery stores and making sure the essential things that we all need are available. They are the people who will benefit the most from getting the vaccination rate up.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, for more on vaccine distribution, we’re joined by Dr. Monica Peek, a physician, associate professor of medicine and health disparities researcher at the University of Chicago. She is meeting at the university today to determine how the university will roll out the vaccine there. In Chicago, like other cities across the country, those killed by COVID-19 have been disproportionately African American and Latinx.
Dr. Peek, welcome to Democracy Now! It’s great to have you with us. Why don’t you start off by responding to what the former congressman is proposing: If there is a problem with people being concerned about the vaccine, pay them to take it?
DR. MONICA PEEK: No. I agree with Dr. Pernell in that we should separate the two issues of economic need and the issue of vaccine implementation, because we don’t want the perception of vaccine safety and trust in the vaccine to cloud the waters of economic need. And so, it is really important that people are able to look at the science, that people are able to follow the words of the scientists and the public health professionals and say, “This is something that is safe that I believe in, that the trusted professionals are recommending that I take,” and that they’re not saying, “This is something that financially I need to do, and I think there might be more risks associated with it because I’m having to be paid to take it, but because I’m so broke, I’m going to put my body in harm’s way in order to get this money.” We don’t want people feeling like they have to make that choice.
So, we need to be able to disentangle those two things and make sure that we have given the people the stimulus that they need. Those conversations are in gridlock. That needs to, you know, fix itself. We need to come to agreement about how to make sure that we are financially supporting the people that are in this economic crisis. Separately, we need to figure out how we’re going to be able to ensure that we have the trust needed to vaccinate our entire U.S. population. Everyone has got to get vaccinated quickly. And so, those are two separate conversations.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And on this issue, Dr. Peek, of the getting everyone vaccinated, clearly, there will have to be steps and the decisions that are being made today in terms of priorities at the federal level. How does this — even at your university or at the local level, how do the health professionals — what kind of things do they think about in terms of, after the first responders, the people in the healthcare system, who gets it next?
DR. MONICA PEEK: Well, you know, there are millions of people that need this vaccine. And so, a lot of thought has been going into how to fairly allocate the vaccine, way before we knew that the vaccines would even be ready. So, it’s a miracle that we have two that are coming on the market this quickly. And so, the National Academy of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine had been meeting already for months and has come up with recommendations. The CDC is currently meeting. Individual hospitals are coming up with their individual rollout plans.
But the general consensus is that people who are frontline workers, people who are considered frontline healthcare workers, high-risk healthcare workers, people who are essential workers, those who are sick, have chronic medical problems, those who are living in close quarters, congregate facilities like nursing homes, homeless shelters, prisons, people that are elderly — all of these sort of high-risk populations, for whatever reason, based on your job, where you’re living, how sick you are, those are the populations that need to be vaccinated early — K-12 teachers. We need to be able to get people back into school, into settings where they can be close together.
And so, there’s a phased rollout, where we have, you know, a phase 1, a phase 2, a phase 3, so that we can sort of, in an orderly fashion, figure out who’s going to go first, and ultimately get to make sure that everyone in the population goes. And so, right now we’re trying to think about just phase 1A, which is high-risk health workers and first responders. And so, assuming that things happen on time and, December 10th, the first vaccine is made available and starts being shipped out, then the hospitals are beginning to look inwardly and think about how we’re going to vaccinate our own hospital employee population.
So, where I am, we have about 6,500 employees, a little more than that, and so we think that we can vaccinate everybody in a week. So, if we did a thousand vaccinations a day, then we could get everyone done within a week’s time. And so, we are sort of looking at that kind of time frame.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And when we talk about, for instance, first responders and folks in healthcare facilities, I’m assuming that, for instance, in a hospital, that includes not just the nurses and the doctors and the — but also the maintenance staff and the kitchen workers and all the other people that are part of that hospital complex. Is that true?
DR. MONICA PEEK: That is true. Everybody in the hospital is potentially exposed. And we think about when you are a patient in the hospital, someone is coming in to clean your room. Someone is coming in to deliver your food. Someone’s coming in to take your temperature. There are many people that come in and out of that door — deliver magazines — who are not your nurse or your physician but have contact with you. There are people who are changing your bed linens and that are, you know, having contact with soiled, contaminated, infectious products. And so, everybody needs to be protected. We are all in this together. And so, the hospital is a bubble that we’re all in, and we are all at risk. And so, yes, hospital workers means all hospital workers.
AMY GOODMAN: As we were just talking with Dr. Chris Pernell about the use of experimentation especially on the African American community, medical experimentation, one of your specialties is racial disparities. And I had two questions. This isn’t related just to disparities. You said everyone could be vaccinated in a week, but these are a two-part vaccine. So there is this question of: Will they use all the 40 million or so vaccines all at once and then wait for the next ones to be developed, or will they only use 20 million of them, so you can get the second vaccine in whatever that period is? And if you can talk about whether it conveys immunity, or you can actually get sick but you will be asymptomatic and you can still spread it? All these questions about the vaccine. But then also, in the wider population, since that’s what you deal with also outside of the University of Chicago, workers at the meatpacking plants, farmworkers, people who are undocumented, how do we ensure that they all have equal access?
DR. MONICA PEEK: These are excellent questions and difficult questions, but ones that we are going to have to think about, how we have a system in place to roll out implementation. And so, already it shows that this is not something that hospitals, in and of themselves, are going to do. The vaccines are primarily going to be shipped to health departments, and then health departments then parcel them out to different institutions. And so, in some cases, you know, hospitals will be working alongside other kinds of organizations to make sure that populations are effectively vaccinated.
And so, certainly, we are used for caring for patients, and so we will be caring for our own patients who are medically vulnerable, and making sure that they get vaccinated. But some people — not everyone has a primary care physician. Many people exist, unfortunately, without routine care. But we need to make sure that everyone in this country is vaccinated. And so we’re going to have to think about non-healthcare sites for vaccination, just like we’re doing for COVID testing, where we have pop-up testing sites. We’re going to have to be more creative in how we think about reaching populations that don’t ordinarily show up at our doors for care and to ensure that we are reaching everyone for vaccine delivery.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Dr. Peek, I wanted to ask you — given the fact that the vaccine will be rolled out probably right around the time that the deaths and the hospitalizations from the virus are at record levels, there’s going to be enormous pressure by sectors of the population to get the vaccine. I’m thinking, over the last nine months, there’s a whole section of the American public that has had the ability to work remotely from home and therefore protect themselves, whereas those workers who have to go to work every day have been increasingly the ones most exposed. So, shouldn’t the vaccine then be rolled out to those who are being forced to work every day as a result of the kind of jobs that they have? And won’t there be pressure from those who are generally more professional, more middle-class, who have stayed at home all these nine months, to also get the vaccine? How do you monitor? What’s going to be the monitoring process to make sure there’s not abuses?
DR. MONICA PEEK: Yeah, you know, that’s an excellent question. I am unaware of sort of the teeth or the penalties for people jumping in line and trying to abuse the system. But what we have tried to put in place are parameters and a rollout system, so that — you know, think about a buffet line on a cruise ship or something. So, now we’re taking people who are having the blue cards. These are the people who are due to get vaccinated. You know, this week we’re doing everyone who’s a healthcare employee. Next week we’re doing essential workers, for the next month. And we’re going to figure out exactly how we find those people and whatever. You know, those are the plans and implementation policies and things we’re going to have to be working through in conjunction with city planners. And this is where the rubber hits the road, and all of the infrastructure and planning has to start working and has been working.
But essential workers, that are keeping our cities and townships functioning, they’re high up on the list. They’re part of the phase 2. And so, again, people who are performing critical functions for the city, as well as people who are carrying higher burdens of disease, are priority people. Frequently, those are the same people, because people who have been burdened by oppression, by structural inequities and racism, that has affected their health. And the same structural inequities has meant that they have had limited opportunities as far as education and career advancement, so a lot of times they’re more likely to be working in essential worker jobs. And so, many of the people that we’re talking about being high priorities for a medical reason or for an occupational reason are the same people. And so those people may have multiple reasons to be priority individuals for getting vaccinated.
AMY GOODMAN: And, Dr. Monica Peek, maybe we’re getting ahead of ourselves here. I mean, you have Stephen Hahn, head of the FDA, the doctor who’s been called to the White House because Mark Meadows, the chief of staff, who also came down with COVID, as did President Trump — of course, the White House is a hot spot because of the herd immunity approach President Trump has taken — putting pressure on him to speed up the approval process. It will be going to the FDA, but then it has to be approved by the CDC. This has been done at unbelievable speed, which is both the excellent news but also a concern for people. Is this being approved with the kind of scientific review that something like this, distributed on a mass basis, needs? Are you concerned about that — overall, the speed with which this is being done, and the fact that even before January 20th, as everyone looks at that next Inauguration Day, you have tens of thousands of Americans who will die, and what President Trump needs to be doing right now, outside the virus — outside the vaccine, to ensure that people have access to masks and tests, something that continues to be a massive problem in this country?
DR. MONICA PEEK: Yes, so much you just said right there. So, where to start? I guess the easy answer is thinking about the current administration. Given that Trump has been in office for four years, and we’ve seen what he can and cannot do, and we’ve seen how he has handled and approached the COVID pandemic, I don’t have high hopes that his behavior will change between now and January 20th. The best that I can hope for is that he will step out of the way, in enough way to make room for the incoming Biden administration and the transition team to be able to make some headway.
Biden has — the first thing he did was pull together his COVID-19 task force, which is chocked full of scientists, health policy analysts, public health professionals, people who are very experienced in vaccine policy and know what they’re doing. And so, getting these people together, who have already been thinking about COVID for years — well, not for years, but, you know, infectious disease for years and have been thinking about the COVID pandemic since it started — you know, that is where we need to be able to let these people flourish in this space, have access to some resources.
But I do think that talking about just the rapidity with which these vaccines have moved forward, you’re right in that that’s a good thing, and then there’s some ambivalence there. We want things to move as quickly as possible, as long as it’s safe. We want them to move with the speed of light, as long as the science is there, and for them not to have been politically approved, but for them to have been scientifically approved. And so, that’s the fine line that we want to walk. And so, when all the scientists have come together behind the idea of Project Warp Speed, that has been, so far, an effective scientific endeavor. And so we want that kind of scientific collaboration to continue. But what we don’t want is politicians getting in the mix and saying, “I really need this to happen to ensure my reelection,” or, you know, things that worry the public. And we know that these things have worried the public.
And so, we cannot undermine — or, we have already undermined. We cannot continue to undermine and erode the public trust in this process. We need to have the public trust that this vaccine will be safe. And we cannot cut corners, because once the vaccine is here, if no one is willing to take it, all of this effort will have been for naught. So we can’t, you know, speed things up just to get here, and then no one is willing to use it. So we have to, as Dr. Pernell was saying, do the hard work. We have to do it right. We have to think right now, in advance, about how we’re going to make this vaccine acceptable to communities who are thinking that this is something that I’m not interested in, and be engaging right now in campaigns of truth-telling. We have to be engaging with organizations that we know are trustworthy. Rather than tearing down the CDC, we need to be building up that public health infrastructure, reinvesting in the CDC, giving them back the leadership and the ability to tell truth to the public, and giving them back the right to run the ship.
AMY GOODMAN: Dr. Monica Peek, I want to thank you so much for being with us, physician, associate professor of medicine and health disparities researcher at the University of Chicago. There is so much to talk about, and we will get back to you soon.
Again, next up, it’s World AIDS Day. We’ll speak with professor Steven Thrasher in 30 seconds.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: António Variações, a gay icon in Paraguay, who died from HIV/AIDS in 1984.


democracynow--2020-12-01--"Part of the Solution": Meet the Black Doctor Who Joined a Vaccine Trial After Her Dad Died of COVID

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is meeting today to vote on who should be the first to get the coronavirus vaccine , once one is available .
This comes as drugmakers Pfizer and Moderna are seeking emergency regulatory approval of their vaccines for widespread use , with Pfizer set to be reviewed by the FDA on December 10th .
Moderna ’ s review will be a week later .
The coronavirus is raging across the United States , with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ The pandemic is disproportionately impacting African American , Latinx and Indigenous communities and exposing long-standing inequities and systemic racism in our healthcare system .
These same communities are underrepresented in clinical trials for COVID-19 vaccines , due in part to centuries of abusive treatment at the hands of medical researchers .
We ’ re beginning today ’ s show with someone whose work focuses on how systemic racism undermines the health of people of color .
She herself participated in Moderna ’ s vaccine trial , in part as a way to honor @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Americans are included in these studies .
Dr. Chris Pernell is a public health physician in Newark , New Jersey , where hospitals in the early days of the pandemic were described as “ bursting at the seams ” with Black and Latinx patients infected with COVID .
Around the same time , her father , Timothy Pernell , was hospitalized and tragically died from COVID complications on April 13th .
Soon after , her sister Kim , a breast cancer survivor , was diagnosed with COVID ; she ’ s still suffering @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Timothy Pernell , was recognized by New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy , who tweeted about how he , quote , “ worked his way up from the groundskeeping crew at Bell Labs to becoming a member of the technical staff.
” For more , Dr. Chris Pernell joins us from Montclair , New Jersey .
Dr. Pernell , it ’ s great to have you with us .
Our condolences on the death of your father .
Can you just take us on the chronology of what happened with your dad , what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ then , ultimately , your decision to be a participant in the Moderna trial ?
DR. CHRIS PERNELL : Sure .
Thanks for having me this morning .
So , if we can think back to the spring , when things were just really beginning to explode in New Jersey , in particular in Essex County and centering on Newark , New Jersey , which was unfortunately an epicenter of the pandemic , when hospitals were starting to restrict visitation , when cases were starting to pile up , my dad , unfortunately @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , just a mere four miles away from where I work .
He went in for an unrelated cause .
He actually was stable .
He was laughing .
He was talking .
He was talking about eating his favorite foods .
And then , suddenly , one day , he became violently ill .
He had vigorous chills , fevers , difficulty breathing .
And we were concerned .
His medical team was concerned .
And after having several of those episodes , unfortunately , he had to be tested , and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ tested positive , it was very much in the early days of this coronavirus pandemic , when there was little that we knew about how to treat coronavirus , little that we knew about how to sustain life .
And unfortunately , we couldn ’ t be there in person with him .
I could , at best , speak with him over the phone , or family members could speak with him virtually .
And then he just grew too weak .
He grew too tired .
I think I last heard @ @ @ @ @ @ @ before he died , and he died on a Monday .
AMY GOODMAN : And tell us who he was .
DR. CHRIS PERNELL : Sure .
My dad , I tell people , was heroic .
I thought he was the bionic man .
Here you had a man who came up during the Jim Crow South , who came north during a time that many Blacks did , following a migratory pattern fleeing systemic racism , even the terror of the Jim Crow South , and settled in the Newark , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Ultimately , my father became a research scientist , but not before he took on a host of odd jobs .
And one was being a groundsman on the famed Bell Labs campus .
My father always had a knack for math and science , but college wasn ’ t a possibility for him in the 1950s in Richmond , Virginia .
And so , one fateful day led to another fateful opportunity .
And my dad was self-taught .
He would read textbooks at night .
He would go to classes @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Ph.D. scientists .
And he assumed the research throne , I like to say .
He was a part of definitely groundbreaking work at Bell Labs .
And more importantly , he fought and he advocated for Blacks to have equal opportunities and access to fields in research .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : And , Dr. Pernell , your father was not the only member of your family afflicted by the coronavirus .
Could you talk about the experiences of other family members , and then your decision to participate in the vaccine @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
I ’ ve been saying clearly , it is so important to put a face to this pandemic .
It is so important to put a face to the science .
When we talk about how coronavirus has disproportionately impacted Black and Brown lives , I oftentimes point to my own story .
So , here , the week where we buried my father through a virtual ceremony , my sister was confirmed positive with coronavirus .
My sister , who is a breast cancer survivor , works in an essential retail @ @ @ @ @ @ @ job , became sick .
She wasn ’ t hospitalized , but she was sick at home .
We closely monitor her .
And here , what , almost eight or nine months later , my sister still has lingering after-effects of the infection .
She just got off of supplemental oxygen .
She has not yet returned to work .
So , that ’ s that disproportionate impact .
And even this past Sunday , unfortunately , I lost another relative .
I lost a beloved cousin to coronavirus , who suffered @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And then , in terms of your decision to participate in the trial ?
DR. CHRIS PERNELL : Sure .
You know , my father ’ s death , what I saw my sister go through , what I saw the patients at our safety net hospital in Newark encounter and deal with , and being a public health physician , I needed a way to be a part of the solution .
You could say it put a fire in my belly .
I believe in public health science , obviously , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I wanted a way to be a part of that science .
My dad would frequently say to me — he would say , “ Follow the science .
Follow the data.
” And an opportunity was made available .
Our hospital , in conjunction with a local academic medical institution , was a sponsoring site , so I was able to volunteer .
And I did not hesitate at that opportunity .
I knew what was known at that time from Phase 1 research , and I knew also that no serious @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , and I knew it was important for Black and Brown persons to participate , if we were ever to get at a truly effective solution .
AMY GOODMAN : And can you talk about : Were there effects , side effects ?
People are describing feeling sick for a day or two .
I mean , it is astounding , Dr. Pernell , that with your dad who ’ s died , with your sister who ’ s a long hauler , that you were willing to go through this even as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ PERNELL : So , let me talk about that .
So , I ’ m not a frontline provider .
I work in leadership , but I ’ m definitely a part of an institution caring for those frontline patients .
But I would say to you , I had to — I had to do something .
Right ?
I saw my community decimated .
And understanding the legacy of systemic racism — that ’ s why this pandemic has disproportionately impacted Black and Brown lives — I needed a way to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ an effective solution to beat back this pandemic ?
” So I enrolled .
I am very much aware of the legacy of medical experimentation , the legacy of medical exploitation , but this was an opportunity to be a part of something that was rooted in sound , ethical practice and upheld informed consent .
And so , when I got my first injection at the end of August , I could tell you it like when I got my flu vaccine , right ?
I had local pain or soreness at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ some headaches and things of that nature , but nothing too out of the ordinary or nothing that was concerning from my baseline .
In addition to that first injection , I had a second injection in the very early days of October .
That experience was a little bit different .
I can tell you , that day , by the end of that day that I got that injection , I felt extreme fatigue .
I was telling the story , I felt like I couldn ’ t get out of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with excessive fatigue .
In addition to that , I had a more severe headache .
But I can tell you , those symptoms didn ’ t last longer than 24 to about 36 hours .
And for me , it was worth it .
I don ’ t know if I was in the placebo arm or if I was in the active vaccine candidate arm , but the experiences I ’ ve had to date , they ’ ve been worth it .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : And , Dr. Pernell , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ historic barriers to getting people of color , particularly African Americans , to want to participate in vaccine trials ?
There ’ s a natural skepticism because , as you mentioned , of the legacy of previous experiments done on people of color .
DR. CHRIS PERNELL : Sure .
We can go back to slavery , when Dr. Sims was doing gynecological procedures on enslaved Black women without anesthesia , without their consent .
They weren ’ t even considered human beings .
We could talk about how Black bodies were robbed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ era to allow medical students to learn anatomy and dissection .
We could talk about the unfortunate and infamous experience of a Tuskegee syphilis study , where we had a treatment for syphilis but that was withheld to study the natural progression of the disease in Black men .
We could talk about Henrietta Lacks , a Black woman in segregated Baltimore who had metastatic cervical cancer and had tissue samples taken from her womb unknowingly , that have become one of the most productive cell lines , that have led to groundbreaking @ @ @ @ @ @ @ appendectomies , where we ’ re describing where Black and Brown women have undergone forced sterilizations under the guise of something else .
There are a host of examples in the literature , in the lived experience , that is weighed on the collective psyche of the Black and Brown community .
But in addition to what ’ s happened in the past , we in healthcare — I describe it as , we ’ re still grappling with systemic racism , right ?
We ’ re still grappling with inequity , that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it is disproportionate disease prevalence rates or whether it is implicit bias that impacts provider and patient interactions .
There is a truth that we can not deny .
And I ’ m very well cognizant of that truth , and my work centers on health equity and health justice .
So , it ’ s so important , as we go into community and we talk about what tools we do have to beat back this pandemic , and clinical research being one of them , which has gotten us to the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ applying for emergency use authorization , we have to center that conversation in transparency and authenticity .
And then we have to demonstrate trustworthiness — we in academic medicine , we in healthcare — so that we can win back , that we can cultivate , trust in these communities that have been historically excluded and disadvantaged .
AMY GOODMAN : Dr. Pernell , we ’ re going to ask Dr. Monica Peek this question , as well , in a minute , at the University of Chicago .
But your thoughts on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ increase participation , and that is paying people to take the vaccine ?
I think John Delaney , the former Democratic presidential candidate , former congressman from Maryland , is proposing something like $ 1,000 , $ 1,500 .
Your thoughts on this ?
DR. CHRIS PERNELL : I ’ m against that .
I ’ m against that because I think that ’ s an unfair inducement .
Having a financial incentive such as that , the people who would be most sensitive to that are those who are struggling with poverty @ @ @ @ @ @ @ any shortcuts .
We just have to do the hard work .
And the hard work is demonstrating trustworthiness .
The hard work is beating back the misinformation and the disinformation , and hearing people ’ s fears and concerns , and allowing science to listen with an empathetic ear , and then to demonstrate why this is the right choice , why this is so necessary to include our communities .
I don ’ t think paying people is the way to go about it .
I think , actually , that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ t center itself in a health equity approach .
AMY GOODMAN : Chris Pernell , we thank you so much for being with us , public health physician in Newark , New Jersey , a Moderna vaccine trial participant .
Thanks for being with us .
Next up , we ’ ll continue to discuss the COVID vaccines as drugmakers press for emergency approval , and the debate over whether people should be paid to take those vaccines , as well the CDC now considering today who should get the millions of vaccines @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the next weeks .
Stay with us .
AMY GOODMAN : “ The Firewood Collector ” by Bernard Kabanda .
The late Ugandan musician died of AIDS .
Today is World AIDS Day .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is meeting today to vote on who should be the first to get the coronavirus vaccine, once one is available. This comes as drugmakers Pfizer and Moderna are seeking emergency regulatory approval of their vaccines for widespread use, with Pfizer set to be reviewed by the FDA on December 10th. Moderna’s review will be a week later.
The coronavirus is raging across the United States, with 4 million cases in November alone. The pandemic is disproportionately impacting African American, Latinx and Indigenous communities and exposing long-standing inequities and systemic racism in our healthcare system. These same communities are underrepresented in clinical trials for COVID-19 vaccines, due in part to centuries of abusive treatment at the hands of medical researchers.
We’re beginning today’s show with someone whose work focuses on how systemic racism undermines the health of people of color. She herself participated in Moderna’s vaccine trial, in part as a way to honor her late father and to ensure African Americans are included in these studies.
Dr. Chris Pernell is a public health physician in Newark, New Jersey, where hospitals in the early days of the pandemic were described as “bursting at the seams” with Black and Latinx patients infected with COVID. Around the same time, her father, Timothy Pernell, was hospitalized and tragically died from COVID complications on April 13th. Soon after, her sister Kim, a breast cancer survivor, was diagnosed with COVID; she’s still suffering from long-term symptoms.
Their father, Timothy Pernell, was recognized by New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy, who tweeted about how he, quote, “worked his way up from the groundskeeping crew at Bell Labs to becoming a member of the technical staff.”
For more, Dr. Chris Pernell joins us from Montclair, New Jersey.
Dr. Pernell, it’s great to have you with us. Our condolences on the death of your father. Can you just take us on the chronology of what happened with your dad, what a remarkable man he was, and then, ultimately, your decision to be a participant in the Moderna trial?
DR. CHRIS PERNELL: Sure. Thanks for having me this morning.
So, if we can think back to the spring, when things were just really beginning to explode in New Jersey, in particular in Essex County and centering on Newark, New Jersey, which was unfortunately an epicenter of the pandemic, when hospitals were starting to restrict visitation, when cases were starting to pile up, my dad, unfortunately, got admitted to a local hospital, just a mere four miles away from where I work. He went in for an unrelated cause. He actually was stable. He was laughing. He was talking. He was talking about eating his favorite foods. And then, suddenly, one day, he became violently ill. He had vigorous chills, fevers, difficulty breathing. And we were concerned. His medical team was concerned. And after having several of those episodes, unfortunately, he had to be tested, and he tested positive.
When my father tested positive, it was very much in the early days of this coronavirus pandemic, when there was little that we knew about how to treat coronavirus, little that we knew about how to sustain life. And unfortunately, we couldn’t be there in person with him. I could, at best, speak with him over the phone, or family members could speak with him virtually. And then he just grew too weak. He grew too tired. I think I last heard my father’s voice the Thursday before he died, and he died on a Monday.
AMY GOODMAN: And tell us who he was.
DR. CHRIS PERNELL: Sure. My dad, I tell people, was heroic. I thought he was the bionic man. Here you had a man who came up during the Jim Crow South, who came north during a time that many Blacks did, following a migratory pattern fleeing systemic racism, even the terror of the Jim Crow South, and settled in the Newark, New Jersey, and New York area.
Ultimately, my father became a research scientist, but not before he took on a host of odd jobs. And one was being a groundsman on the famed Bell Labs campus. My father always had a knack for math and science, but college wasn’t a possibility for him in the 1950s in Richmond, Virginia. And so, one fateful day led to another fateful opportunity. And my dad was self-taught. He would read textbooks at night. He would go to classes provided at the lab by some of the Ph.D. scientists. And he assumed the research throne, I like to say. He was a part of definitely groundbreaking work at Bell Labs. And more importantly, he fought and he advocated for Blacks to have equal opportunities and access to fields in research.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Dr. Pernell, your father was not the only member of your family afflicted by the coronavirus. Could you talk about the experiences of other family members, and then your decision to participate in the vaccine trial?
DR. CHRIS PERNELL: Sure. I’ve been saying clearly, it is so important to put a face to this pandemic. It is so important to put a face to the science. When we talk about how coronavirus has disproportionately impacted Black and Brown lives, I oftentimes point to my own story.
So, here, the week where we buried my father through a virtual ceremony, my sister was confirmed positive with coronavirus. My sister, who is a breast cancer survivor, works in an essential retail industry and likely got exposed on her job, became sick. She wasn’t hospitalized, but she was sick at home. We closely monitor her. And here, what, almost eight or nine months later, my sister still has lingering after-effects of the infection. She just got off of supplemental oxygen. She has not yet returned to work. So, that’s that disproportionate impact. And even this past Sunday, unfortunately, I lost another relative. I lost a beloved cousin to coronavirus, who suffered a catastrophic stroke.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And then, in terms of your decision to participate in the trial?
DR. CHRIS PERNELL: Sure. You know, my father’s death, what I saw my sister go through, what I saw the patients at our safety net hospital in Newark encounter and deal with, and being a public health physician, I needed a way to be a part of the solution. You could say it put a fire in my belly. I believe in public health science, obviously, as a public health physician. And I wanted a way to be a part of that science. My dad would frequently say to me — he would say, “Follow the science. Follow the data.”
And an opportunity was made available. Our hospital, in conjunction with a local academic medical institution, was a sponsoring site, so I was able to volunteer. And I did not hesitate at that opportunity. I knew what was known at that time from Phase 1 research, and I knew also that no serious medical event had happened in Phase 2, and I knew it was important for Black and Brown persons to participate, if we were ever to get at a truly effective solution.
AMY GOODMAN: And can you talk about: Were there effects, side effects? People are describing feeling sick for a day or two. I mean, it is astounding, Dr. Pernell, that with your dad who’s died, with your sister who’s a long hauler, that you were willing to go through this even as you treat COVID patients.
DR. CHRIS PERNELL: So, let me talk about that. So, I’m not a frontline provider. I work in leadership, but I’m definitely a part of an institution caring for those frontline patients. But I would say to you, I had to — I had to do something. Right? I saw my community decimated. And understanding the legacy of systemic racism — that’s why this pandemic has disproportionately impacted Black and Brown lives — I needed a way to say, “Can we get at an effective solution to beat back this pandemic?” So I enrolled. I am very much aware of the legacy of medical experimentation, the legacy of medical exploitation, but this was an opportunity to be a part of something that was rooted in sound, ethical practice and upheld informed consent.
And so, when I got my first injection at the end of August, I could tell you it like when I got my flu vaccine, right? I had local pain or soreness at the injection site. I did have some headaches and things of that nature, but nothing too out of the ordinary or nothing that was concerning from my baseline. In addition to that first injection, I had a second injection in the very early days of October. That experience was a little bit different. I can tell you, that day, by the end of that day that I got that injection, I felt extreme fatigue. I was telling the story, I felt like I couldn’t get out of my car. I just felt overcome with excessive fatigue. In addition to that, I had a more severe headache. But I can tell you, those symptoms didn’t last longer than 24 to about 36 hours. And for me, it was worth it. I don’t know if I was in the placebo arm or if I was in the active vaccine candidate arm, but the experiences I’ve had to date, they’ve been worth it.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Dr. Pernell, could you talk about some of the historic barriers to getting people of color, particularly African Americans, to want to participate in vaccine trials? There’s a natural skepticism because, as you mentioned, of the legacy of previous experiments done on people of color.
DR. CHRIS PERNELL: Sure. We can go back to slavery, when Dr. Sims was doing gynecological procedures on enslaved Black women without anesthesia, without their consent. They weren’t even considered human beings. We could talk about how Black bodies were robbed from cemeteries out of that Civil War era to allow medical students to learn anatomy and dissection. We could talk about the unfortunate and infamous experience of a Tuskegee syphilis study, where we had a treatment for syphilis but that was withheld to study the natural progression of the disease in Black men. We could talk about Henrietta Lacks, a Black woman in segregated Baltimore who had metastatic cervical cancer and had tissue samples taken from her womb unknowingly, that have become one of the most productive cell lines, that have led to groundbreaking research. We could talk about Mississippi appendectomies, where we’re describing where Black and Brown women have undergone forced sterilizations under the guise of something else. There are a host of examples in the literature, in the lived experience, that is weighed on the collective psyche of the Black and Brown community.
But in addition to what’s happened in the past, we in healthcare — I describe it as, we’re still grappling with systemic racism, right? We’re still grappling with inequity, that lead to staggering healthcare disparities, whether it is disproportionate disease prevalence rates or whether it is implicit bias that impacts provider and patient interactions. There is a truth that we cannot deny. And I’m very well cognizant of that truth, and my work centers on health equity and health justice. So, it’s so important, as we go into community and we talk about what tools we do have to beat back this pandemic, and clinical research being one of them, which has gotten us to the point where we have two vaccine candidates applying for emergency use authorization, we have to center that conversation in transparency and authenticity. And then we have to demonstrate trustworthiness — we in academic medicine, we in healthcare — so that we can win back, that we can cultivate, trust in these communities that have been historically excluded and disadvantaged.
AMY GOODMAN: Dr. Pernell, we’re going to ask Dr. Monica Peek this question, as well, in a minute, at the University of Chicago. But your thoughts on what’s being proposed now to increase participation, and that is paying people to take the vaccine? I think John Delaney, the former Democratic presidential candidate, former congressman from Maryland, is proposing something like $1,000, $1,500. Your thoughts on this?
DR. CHRIS PERNELL: I’m against that. I’m against that because I think that’s an unfair inducement. Having a financial incentive such as that, the people who would be most sensitive to that are those who are struggling with poverty. And we can’t have any shortcuts. We just have to do the hard work. And the hard work is demonstrating trustworthiness. The hard work is beating back the misinformation and the disinformation, and hearing people’s fears and concerns, and allowing science to listen with an empathetic ear, and then to demonstrate why this is the right choice, why this is so necessary to include our communities. I don’t think paying people is the way to go about it. I think, actually, that is a shortchange result that doesn’t center itself in a health equity approach.
AMY GOODMAN: Chris Pernell, we thank you so much for being with us, public health physician in Newark, New Jersey, a Moderna vaccine trial participant. Thanks for being with us.
Next up, we’ll continue to discuss the COVID vaccines as drugmakers press for emergency approval, and the debate over whether people should be paid to take those vaccines, as well the CDC now considering today who should get the millions of vaccines that will probably be made available in the next weeks. Stay with us.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: “The Firewood Collector” by Bernard Kabanda. The late Ugandan musician died of AIDS. Today is World AIDS Day.


democracynow--2020-12-01--Headlines for December  1, 2020

Headlines for December  1, 2020

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is convening a panel of advisers today to determine who will be the first in line to be vaccinated against COVID-19 — as the U.S. coronavirus outbreak continues to shatter world records .
On Monday , U.S. hospitalizations topped 96,000 — a record high .
There were 168,000 new confirmed cases and nearly 1,300 new deaths Monday .
There were over 4 million confirmed U.S. infections in November alone .
Here in New York , Governor Andrew Cuomo warned of a looming “ nightmare of overwhelmed hospitals , ” saying he ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ businesses if cases keep rising .
Cuomo also ordered hospitals to call up retired medical workers .
Gov .
Andrew Cuomo : “ Every hospital has to identify retired nurses and doctors now .
We ’ re already experiencing staff shortages .
Staff just gets exhausted after a while .
They ’ ve had a horrendous year.
” In California , a new remain-at-home order went into effect across Los Angeles County on Monday , as Governor Gavin Newsom warned similar orders could soon follow for nearly all of California ’ s 58 @ @

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is convening a panel of advisers today to determine who will be the first in line to be vaccinated against COVID-19 — as the U.S. coronavirus outbreak continues to shatter world records. On Monday, U.S. hospitalizations topped 96,000 — a record high. There were 168,000 new confirmed cases and nearly 1,300 new deaths Monday. There were over 4 million confirmed U.S. infections in November alone.
Here in New York, Governor Andrew Cuomo warned of a looming “nightmare of overwhelmed hospitals,” saying he’s prepared to once again close nonessential businesses if cases keep rising. Cuomo also ordered hospitals to call up retired medical workers.
Gov. Andrew Cuomo: “Every hospital has to identify retired nurses and doctors now. We’re already experiencing staff shortages. Staff just gets exhausted after a while. They’ve had a horrendous year.”
In California, a new remain-at-home order went into effect across Los Angeles County on Monday, as Governor Gavin Newsom warned similar orders could soon follow for nearly all of California’s 58 counties.


democracynow--2020-11-30--Trump Races to Kill Lisa Montgomery in First Federal Execution of a Woman in Almost 70 Years

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : Sandra Babcock , if you can also respond to the Trump administration quietly attempting to expand the ways they can kill prisoners to poison gas , electrocution and firing squad ?
SANDRA BABCOCK : You know , it is a paroxysm of violence that we ’ re seeing right now .
And one of the things that is so hard to digest is that the people that they are choosing to subject to these methods of execution are not , as Sister @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the worst ; they are the most broken of the broken .
And Lisa Montgomery is a good example of that .
She is somebody the federal government intends to execute on January 12th .
And she was a victim of incest , of gang rape , of child sex trafficking , of unimaginable violence for her entire life , before she committed the crime for which she was sentenced to death .
She is profoundly mentally ill. She began to dissociate when she was a teenager , when her stepfather built her @ @ @ @ @ @ @ their trailer so he and his buddies could go in and rape her .
Her mother sold her to the plumber and to the electrician , told her that she had to earn her keep .
And so she obtained services after these men raped Lisa .
And Lisa was left , from these experiences , as somebody who has the most fragile grip on reality , because she had to escape from her reality in order to survive .
This is the kind of person that William Barr intends to put to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to execute someone like Lisa Montgomery , among all of these other people ?
That , to me , illustrates the brutality of what we are witnessing right now .
AMY GOODMAN : And this would be the first woman executed in 70 years , the examples of her own life history not brought up at the trial .
Why ?
SANDRA BABCOCK : Well , they weren ’ t brought up because she was represented by a male defense team that had never been trained and didn ’ t know how to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ curled in a fetal position on the floor of her prison cell during one of the interviews — a couple of the interviews that her male lawyer conducted with her .
And so the jury never heard about the scope of her abuse or the impact that it had .
And the prosecutors trivialized it .
They called it the “ abuse excuse.
” This is not an excuse .
Anyone who has been the victim of sexual violence and the kind of sexual torture that Lisa Montgomery endured knows that this is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ This has lifelong consequences .
And for Lisa , it meant that she is somebody who is broken .
She is the most broken of the broken .
She is somebody who has a very difficult time understanding what is real and what is not , because of what she endured .
And so , the people who were supposed to defend her did not do their job , and as a result , she is now scheduled to be executed at a time — for a crime that no other woman has @ @ @ @ @ @ @ country .
We know that there are at least 16 women who have committed very similar crimes , and prosecutors in those cases recognized that these are crimes that are the product of trauma and mental illness .
But the federal government , under Alberto Gonzales , decided that they were going to seek the death penalty in this case .
She really is unique , and she really is not the kind of person the death penalty was intended for .
AMY GOODMAN : Even former prosecutors are saying she should not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : That ’ s right .
There ’ s a number of former prosecutors have come forward , former sex crimes prosecutors , people who have tried to put away the criminals who raped Lisa .
And no one ever intervened to help Lisa .
Her sister was taken out of the home , but Lisa was left there .
And that ’ s why — AMY GOODMAN : Let me read the letter sent to President Trump by more than 40 current and former prosecutors in support of Lisa Montgomery .
They @ @ @ @ @ @ @ prosecuting human traffickers and those who commit sex crimes against children has given us a unique understanding of the profound physical and psychological harm that victims like Lisa suffer .
In this case , mental health professionals have concluded that the sexual violence and cruelty she suffered was directly related to the crime she committed .
They have also diagnosed Lisa with organic brain damage and serious mental illness that requires her to be heavily medicated at all times .
A history of being victimized is not an 'abuse excuse ' as the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ We view this kind of evidence as critically relevant to determining the appropriate punishment for a serious crime.
” Again , that was a letter written by former prosecutors .
SANDRA BABCOCK : That ’ s right .
And there was also a letter from two prosecutors who had prosecuted women for virtually identical crimes , who also said these are crimes that are committed by women who are profoundly mentally ill , and we recognize that , and that ’ s why we did not seek the death penalty in those cases @ @ @ @ @ @ @ different case , Amy .
We don ’ t see these kinds of people coming out and calling for commutation , calling for mercy .
We don ’ t see anti-violence activists , the people who have spent their entire lifetimes combating domestic violence committed against women , child sex trafficking , the kind of people who have spent their lives fighting against child sex traffickers , are coming out , because these are the people who know what damage this does to a child and to a person who has survived this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not be overcome without the kind of counseling that Lisa Montgomery never received .
And she is now very mentally ill .
Her mental illness is controlled by a complex regimen of antipsychotic medication .
But since she learned of her execution date , her mental health is deteriorating daily .
They took away her underwear after she was told that she had an execution date , which for a trauma survivor of sexual violence , somebody who was a victim of sexual violence , put her over the edge .
She has @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to be transferred to an all-male prison , where she will be executed there .
She can not even be in a room with a man without breaking out into hives , and they intend to transfer her to an all-male prison .
That in itself is torture .
Even setting aside the government ’ s plans to subject people to poison gas , even if you take Lisa Montgomery to an all-male prison to subject her to lethal injection , that is torture .
This woman has been tortured her entire life @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for is that her sentence be commuted to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole .
AMY GOODMAN : Now , she was sentenced after the killing of , and convicted of , a 23-year-old eight-month-pregnant woman .
And explain what she did .
SANDRA BABCOCK : So , she killed Bobbie Jo Stinnett , a woman who was pregnant .
And this came after Lisa herself had been subjected to a coerced sterilization procedure by her stepbrother , whom she had married at her mother ’ s instigation .
And she was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ very mentally ill. After that happened , her mental illness became worse and worse , until she was completely psychotic .
And in the grips of this psychosis , she befriended Bobby Jo Stinnett .
She killed her .
She carved the fetus out of the woman ’ s abdomen , and she took it home and pretended that it was her own child , and cared for the fetus — cared for the baby as if it were her own baby .
This is the kind of crime that is so unbelievably @ @ @ @ @ @ @ m saying diminishes that tragedy .
But we have to understand that a crime like this can not be separated from Lisa Montgomery ’ s experiences as a profoundly mentally ill person who was involuntarily sterilized and who was brutalized for her entire life .
This is not an “ abuse excuse , ” as the prosecutors said ; this is an explanation .
This helps us to understand why she did what she did .
And again , we ’ re not asking that she not be punished .
We are saying @ @ @ @ @ @ @ person who should be exterminated from the human race .
AMY GOODMAN : We ’ re going to break and then come back to this discussion .
I want to thank Sandra Babcock for joining us , faculty director of the Cornell Center on the Death Penalty Worldwide .
And we ’ ll continue with Sister Helen Prejean .
We ’ ll be looking at the four other executions that are scheduled .
Again , five executions scheduled in the lame-duck period between presidencies .
The last time this happened was over a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ AMY GOODMAN : “ Lisa ’ s Song ” by Veronica Cinibulk about Lisa Montgomery , who is facing federal execution on January 12th .
The execution was put off because her lawyers had COVID .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: Sandra Babcock, if you can also respond to the Trump administration quietly attempting to expand the ways they can kill prisoners to poison gas, electrocution and firing squad?
SANDRA BABCOCK: You know, it is a paroxysm of violence that we’re seeing right now. And one of the things that is so hard to digest is that the people that they are choosing to subject to these methods of execution are not, as Sister Helen just said, the worst of the worst; they are the most broken of the broken.
And Lisa Montgomery is a good example of that. She is somebody the federal government intends to execute on January 12th. And she was a victim of incest, of gang rape, of child sex trafficking, of unimaginable violence for her entire life, before she committed the crime for which she was sentenced to death. She is profoundly mentally ill. She began to dissociate when she was a teenager, when her stepfather built her a special room off the side of their trailer so he and his buddies could go in and rape her. Her mother sold her to the plumber and to the electrician, told her that she had to earn her keep. And so she obtained services after these men raped Lisa. And Lisa was left, from these experiences, as somebody who has the most fragile grip on reality, because she had to escape from her reality in order to survive.
This is the kind of person that William Barr intends to put to death in January. Why the rush to execute someone like Lisa Montgomery, among all of these other people? That, to me, illustrates the brutality of what we are witnessing right now.
AMY GOODMAN: And this would be the first woman executed in 70 years, the examples of her own life history not brought up at the trial. Why?
SANDRA BABCOCK: Well, they weren’t brought up because she was represented by a male defense team that had never been trained and didn’t know how to interview a woman. She was left curled in a fetal position on the floor of her prison cell during one of the interviews — a couple of the interviews that her male lawyer conducted with her. And so the jury never heard about the scope of her abuse or the impact that it had.
And the prosecutors trivialized it. They called it the “abuse excuse.” This is not an excuse. Anyone who has been the victim of sexual violence and the kind of sexual torture that Lisa Montgomery endured knows that this is not something that can be trivialized. This has lifelong consequences. And for Lisa, it meant that she is somebody who is broken. She is the most broken of the broken. She is somebody who has a very difficult time understanding what is real and what is not, because of what she endured.
And so, the people who were supposed to defend her did not do their job, and as a result, she is now scheduled to be executed at a time — for a crime that no other woman has ever been executed for in this entire country. We know that there are at least 16 women who have committed very similar crimes, and prosecutors in those cases recognized that these are crimes that are the product of trauma and mental illness. But the federal government, under Alberto Gonzales, decided that they were going to seek the death penalty in this case. She really is unique, and she really is not the kind of person the death penalty was intended for.
AMY GOODMAN: Even former prosecutors are saying she should not be put to death.
SANDRA BABCOCK: That’s right. There’s a number of former prosecutors have come forward, former sex crimes prosecutors, people who have tried to put away the criminals who raped Lisa. And no one ever intervened to help Lisa. Her sister was taken out of the home, but Lisa was left there. And that’s why —
AMY GOODMAN: Let me read the letter sent to President Trump by more than 40 current and former prosecutors in support of Lisa Montgomery. They write, quote, “Our experience prosecuting human traffickers and those who commit sex crimes against children has given us a unique understanding of the profound physical and psychological harm that victims like Lisa suffer. In this case, mental health professionals have concluded that the sexual violence and cruelty she suffered was directly related to the crime she committed. They have also diagnosed Lisa with organic brain damage and serious mental illness that requires her to be heavily medicated at all times. A history of being victimized is not an 'abuse excuse' as the jury was told at her trial. We view this kind of evidence as critically relevant to determining the appropriate punishment for a serious crime.” Again, that was a letter written by former prosecutors.
SANDRA BABCOCK: That’s right. And there was also a letter from two prosecutors who had prosecuted women for virtually identical crimes, who also said these are crimes that are committed by women who are profoundly mentally ill, and we recognize that, and that’s why we did not seek the death penalty in those cases. So, this is a really different case, Amy. We don’t see these kinds of people coming out and calling for commutation, calling for mercy. We don’t see anti-violence activists, the people who have spent their entire lifetimes combating domestic violence committed against women, child sex trafficking, the kind of people who have spent their lives fighting against child sex traffickers, are coming out, because these are the people who know what damage this does to a child and to a person who has survived this. It is lifelong trauma that cannot be overcome without the kind of counseling that Lisa Montgomery never received.
And she is now very mentally ill. Her mental illness is controlled by a complex regimen of antipsychotic medication. But since she learned of her execution date, her mental health is deteriorating daily. They took away her underwear after she was told that she had an execution date, which for a trauma survivor of sexual violence, somebody who was a victim of sexual violence, put her over the edge.
She has been told that she’s going to be transferred to an all-male prison, where she will be executed there. She cannot even be in a room with a man without breaking out into hives, and they intend to transfer her to an all-male prison. That in itself is torture. Even setting aside the government’s plans to subject people to poison gas, even if you take Lisa Montgomery to an all-male prison to subject her to lethal injection, that is torture. This woman has been tortured her entire life. And all that we are asking for is that her sentence be commuted to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole.
AMY GOODMAN: Now, she was sentenced after the killing of, and convicted of, a 23-year-old eight-month-pregnant woman. And explain what she did.
SANDRA BABCOCK: So, she killed Bobbie Jo Stinnett, a woman who was pregnant. And this came after Lisa herself had been subjected to a coerced sterilization procedure by her stepbrother, whom she had married at her mother’s instigation. And she was pressured into this sterilization when she was very mentally ill. After that happened, her mental illness became worse and worse, until she was completely psychotic. And in the grips of this psychosis, she befriended Bobby Jo Stinnett. She killed her. She carved the fetus out of the woman’s abdomen, and she took it home and pretended that it was her own child, and cared for the fetus — cared for the baby as if it were her own baby.
This is the kind of crime that is so unbelievably tragic, and nothing that I’m saying diminishes that tragedy. But we have to understand that a crime like this cannot be separated from Lisa Montgomery’s experiences as a profoundly mentally ill person who was involuntarily sterilized and who was brutalized for her entire life. This is not an “abuse excuse,” as the prosecutors said; this is an explanation. This helps us to understand why she did what she did. And again, we’re not asking that she not be punished. We are saying that this is not the kind of person who should be exterminated from the human race.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to break and then come back to this discussion. I want to thank Sandra Babcock for joining us, faculty director of the Cornell Center on the Death Penalty Worldwide. And we’ll continue with Sister Helen Prejean. We’ll be looking at the four other executions that are scheduled. Again, five executions scheduled in the lame-duck period between presidencies. The last time this happened was over a century ago. Stay with us.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: “Lisa’s Song” by Veronica Cinibulk about Lisa Montgomery, who is facing federal execution on January 12th. The execution was put off because her lawyers had COVID.