democracynow--2020-05-22--Third White Man Arrested for Murder in Ahmaud Arbery Shooting as DOJ Considers Hate Crime Charges

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : Following weeks of outcry , authorities have arrested a third White man for the killing of Ahmaud Arbery , the 25-year-old Black man who was chased down and shot to death February 23rd while on a job on a Sunday in Georgia .
William Bryan was arrested Thursday on charges of felony murder and criminal attempt to commit false imprisonment .
He filmed the disturbing video showing Arbery jogging down a narrow road in Brunswick , Georgia , in broad daylight , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ men and shot three times .
The three men walked free for months after Arbery ’ s murder .
But after the video went viral and sparked mass outrage , Arbery ’ s attackers — retired police officer Greg McMichael and his son Travis — were both arrested and charged with murder and aggravated assault earlier this month .
Lee Merritt , the Arbery family attorney , said the video shows Arbery was chased by the McMichaels in their car for over four minutes before they killed him .
Gregory McMichael is a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ worked as a prosecutorial investigator .
Advocates say McMichael ’ s ties to law enforcement shielded him from immediate arrest for Arbery ’ s killing , and the Georgia Bureau of Investigation has opened an investigation into Arbery ’ s case for possible prosecutorial misconduct .
Brunswick Judicial Circuit DA Jackie Johnson recused herself from the case because McMichael had worked in her office as an investigator .
The Arbery case has passed through four district attorneys ’ offices .
Ahmaud Arbery was murdered after briefly entering a construction site .
Texts uncovered @ @ @ @ @ @ @ police officer instructed the owner of the property to notify Greg McMichael if he noticed any trespassers .
But surveillance video shows multiple people , a number of them White , entered the construction site to look around , but only Arbery was killed for the alleged trespassing .
The homeowner Larry English ’ s attorney has issued a statement that said , quote , “ It now appears that this young man may have been coming onto the property for water , ” unquote .
The U.S. Justice Department says it will @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hate crime charges can be pursued .
But such charges can not be pursued by state authorities because Georgia is one of three Southern states that has no hate crime law .
For more , we go to Tallahassee , Florida , where we ’ re joined by Ben Crump , civil rights attorney representing the family of Ahmaud Arbery .
He ’ s the author of Open Season : Legalized Genocide of Colored People .
Welcome back to Democracy Now !
, Ben .
Can you start off by talking about the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ person ?
Usually , people who open their cellphone and start filming are hailed as the people who break a case .
The film certainly provided the fodder for the arrests , months after Ahmaud was killed .
But what about this man ?
BENJAMIN CRUMP : Well , as Ahmaud Arbery ’ s family and my co-counsels have maintained from the beginning , we believe that William “ Roddie ” Bryan was part of this organized gang that was attempting , based on a premeditated plan , to confront and capture Ahmaud @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that day .
And the text message that was sent by police officer Robert Rash to the homeowner , saying that , “ If you see him again , don ’ t call the police .
Call Gregory McMichael .
He ’ s a former police officer ” — so , we believe this was an organized mob that was planning on confronting Ahmaud .
So it is wholly appropriate that he was arrested and charged .
When you look at what Gregory McMichael said on day one , he said that Roddie @ @ @ @ @ @ @ he was running .
And then we visually see objective evidence : For four minutes , they chase Ahmaud Arbery in that community as he tries to escape and run for his life .
So , Ahmaud Arbery ’ s family is very relieved , because they have maintained they want everybody who was part of this lynch mob , who executed their child , to be arrested and held accountable .
AMY GOODMAN : So , this arrest came just after the raiding of the home of McMichael .
Him and his @ @ @ @ @ @ @ McMichael , again , a former investigator and Glynn County police officer .
Is that right ?
And what do you understand they found in the house ?
BENJAMIN CRUMP : Well , they have not revealed the contents of what they found in the house .
The Georgia Bureau of Investigation is set to have a press conference today at 9 a.m. Eastern Standard Time .
They may divulge some of that information if they can .
But we do know that they are looking , based on what the family has @ @ @ @ @ @ @ their son , connections between each and every person who was part of this lynch mob , this organized effort that was premeditated .
And so , when you think about the charges of felony murder and criminal intent to commit false imprisonment , William “ Roddie ” Bryan is guilty of those charges , much in the same way if you have young people who make a miscalculated , stupid decision to go into a convenience store with the intent to rob the store , and you have somebody sitting in the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is killed who ’ s working at that store , everybody is charged .
The person inside who did the shooting is charged with murder , and the person who was aiding and abetting , driving the car , is charged with felony murder .
So , it ’ s no different in this situation , when you think about how they executed Ahmaud Arbery and each and everybody who played a part in aiding and abetting in this crime .
AMY GOODMAN : I want to go to Kevin Gough , the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , speaking on Monday .
He directed a message to you , Ben Crump , and S. Lee Merritt , saying you have put his client in danger .
AMY GOODMAN : So , that was before he was arrested .
That was the attorney .
Ben Crump , your response ?
BENJAMIN CRUMP : Certainly .
You know , since he made this plea directly to me and my Omega brother Lee Merritt , let me respond directly to him .
Ahmaud Arbery was unarmed and defenseless when he was executed in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ he says our calls for his client to be arrested somehow put his client in danger , we want him to know that the Arbery family is very relieved , and he can be very relieved , because the rule of law has prevailed and that his client was arrested based on evidence and probable cause .
And he has no fear to worry about his client being in danger , because I am certain that he is safe in the Glynn County jail .
And our clients , the Arbery family , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and stay in the Glynn County jail for a long time , as they continue to push for justice for their son , Ahmaud Arbery .
AMY GOODMAN : Ben Crump , the video keeps showing Ahmaud Arbery going into this construction site where a house is being built .
But other video has been released that shows White people , over and over again , going into this construction site .
You know , it ’ s a house being built .
It ’ s completely open .
A White couple , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ walking in , sort of touring around .
BENJAMIN CRUMP : Yes , ma ’ am .
And that underscores the point that this was never about any trespassing or burglary .
This was always about profiling Ahmaud Arbery because of the color of his skin .
And we are requesting and imploring the federal Department of Justice to handle this matter as a hate crime .
There can be a parallel prosecution with the state district attorney who ’ s assigned to the case , as well as the Department of Justice @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , because we believe Ahmaud Arbery was killed based on the color of his skin .
He was lynched in 2020 .
And we have to send a message , not only to his family and community , but to the entire world , that , America , we are better than this .
AMY GOODMAN : Ben Crump , also , what about the Justice Department , the calls for them to open a hate crimes investigation into what happened ?
I mean , clearly , the two men , Greg McMichael @ @ @ @ @ @ @ former police officer , investigator — they walked free for months , before the video got out .
The question of the corruption within the Glynn County , the district attorney , all of that , going — well , now the question of where the Justice Department is .
BENJAMIN CRUMP : Absolutely .
We want the Justice Department to not only open a hate crime investigation , but we want them to look at the due process of law violations under the 14th Amendment involving everybody who was involved in this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ were first on the scene to the first DA , Jackie Johnson , who , it is alleged , told the police not to file charges in the case ; to the second district attorney , Barnhill , who also said , like Jackie Johnson , he had a conflict of interest , but yet wrote a memorandum saying that he saw no probable cause to arrest this murderous father-and-son duo , and , in essence , put his thumb on the scales of justice in favor of the McMichaels ; and the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ looked at this video and he looked at all this evidence , the statements , said that he didn ’ t feel he could arrest them , that he had to take it to a grand jury ; and so , the Glynn County Sheriff ’ s Department , who leaked the video of Ahmaud Arbery from three years prior , we believe , in an attempt to assassinate his character , as well as Robert Rash , the police officer who sent the text to the homeowner that condoned and encouraged this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Arbery .
AMY GOODMAN : Shaun King said yesterday classmates of Travis McMichael said he was the single most racist man they ever knew and that when they heard he had been involved in this , they were not shocked .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: Following weeks of outcry, authorities have arrested a third white man for the killing of Ahmaud Arbery, the 25-year-old Black man who was chased down and shot to death February 23rd while on a job on a Sunday in Georgia. William Bryan was arrested Thursday on charges of felony murder and criminal attempt to commit false imprisonment. He filmed the disturbing video showing Arbery jogging down a narrow road in Brunswick, Georgia, in broad daylight, before being confronted by two armed white men and shot three times.
The three men walked free for months after Arbery’s murder. But after the video went viral and sparked mass outrage, Arbery’s attackers — retired police officer Greg McMichael and his son Travis — were both arrested and charged with murder and aggravated assault earlier this month. Lee Merritt, the Arbery family attorney, said the video shows Arbery was chased by the McMichaels in their car for over four minutes before they killed him.
Gregory McMichael is a former Glynn County police officer who also worked as a prosecutorial investigator. Advocates say McMichael’s ties to law enforcement shielded him from immediate arrest for Arbery’s killing, and the Georgia Bureau of Investigation has opened an investigation into Arbery’s case for possible prosecutorial misconduct. Brunswick Judicial Circuit DA Jackie Johnson recused herself from the case because McMichael had worked in her office as an investigator. The Arbery case has passed through four district attorneys’ offices.
Ahmaud Arbery was murdered after briefly entering a construction site. Texts uncovered over the weekend show a Glynn County police officer instructed the owner of the property to notify Greg McMichael if he noticed any trespassers. But surveillance video shows multiple people, a number of them white, entered the construction site to look around, but only Arbery was killed for the alleged trespassing. The homeowner Larry English’s attorney has issued a statement that said, quote, “It now appears that this young man may have been coming onto the property for water,” unquote.
The U.S. Justice Department says it will review the case to see if federal hate crime charges can be pursued. But such charges cannot be pursued by state authorities because Georgia is one of three Southern states that has no hate crime law.
For more, we go to Tallahassee, Florida, where we’re joined by Ben Crump, civil rights attorney representing the family of Ahmaud Arbery. He’s the author of Open Season: Legalized Genocide of Colored People.
Welcome back to Democracy Now!, Ben. Can you start off by talking about the significance of the arrest of this third person? Usually, people who open their cellphone and start filming are hailed as the people who break a case. The film certainly provided the fodder for the arrests, months after Ahmaud was killed. But what about this man?
BENJAMIN CRUMP: Well, as Ahmaud Arbery’s family and my co-counsels have maintained from the beginning, we believe that William “Roddie” Bryan was part of this organized gang that was attempting, based on a premeditated plan, to confront and capture Ahmaud Arbery as he jogged through that community that day. And the text message that was sent by police officer Robert Rash to the homeowner, saying that, “If you see him again, don’t call the police. Call Gregory McMichael. He’s a former police officer” — so, we believe this was an organized mob that was planning on confronting Ahmaud. So it is wholly appropriate that he was arrested and charged.
When you look at what Gregory McMichael said on day one, he said that Roddie attempted to cut off the jogger as he was running. And then we visually see objective evidence: For four minutes, they chase Ahmaud Arbery in that community as he tries to escape and run for his life. So, Ahmaud Arbery’s family is very relieved, because they have maintained they want everybody who was part of this lynch mob, who executed their child, to be arrested and held accountable.
AMY GOODMAN: So, this arrest came just after the raiding of the home of McMichael. Him and his son are in jail right now — McMichael, again, a former investigator and Glynn County police officer. Is that right? And what do you understand they found in the house?
BENJAMIN CRUMP: Well, they have not revealed the contents of what they found in the house. The Georgia Bureau of Investigation is set to have a press conference today at 9 a.m. Eastern Standard Time. They may divulge some of that information if they can. But we do know that they are looking, based on what the family has tried to demand for equal justice for their son, connections between each and every person who was part of this lynch mob, this organized effort that was premeditated.
And so, when you think about the charges of felony murder and criminal intent to commit false imprisonment, William “Roddie” Bryan is guilty of those charges, much in the same way if you have young people who make a miscalculated, stupid decision to go into a convenience store with the intent to rob the store, and you have somebody sitting in the car. Well, if a person is killed who’s working at that store, everybody is charged. The person inside who did the shooting is charged with murder, and the person who was aiding and abetting, driving the car, is charged with felony murder. So, it’s no different in this situation, when you think about how they executed Ahmaud Arbery and each and everybody who played a part in aiding and abetting in this crime.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to go to Kevin Gough, the attorney for William “Roddie” Bryan, speaking on Monday. He directed a message to you, Ben Crump, and S. Lee Merritt, saying you have put his client in danger.
KEVIN GOUGH: I want to take a moment and speak directly to Benjamin Crump and S. Lee Merritt, two of the lawyers for the Arbery family. I’m not here tonight to argue with you about the evidence. I reached discreetly — I discreetly reached out previously through community leaders. I pleaded with you a week ago on national television. I do not know whether you have heard my pleas or whether you chose to ignore them, so I will try again. Mr. Bryan is not your enemy. My plea is this: Please stop. Please stop doing and saying things that place the lives of Roddie and his family in danger. Whether you realize it or not, y’all have put a target on his back. He is unarmed and defenseless — a sitting duck. I understand your passion and your zeal for justice, but, respectfully, the ends don’t justify the means.
AMY GOODMAN: So, that was before he was arrested. That was the attorney. Ben Crump, your response?
BENJAMIN CRUMP: Certainly. You know, since he made this plea directly to me and my Omega brother Lee Merritt, let me respond directly to him. Ahmaud Arbery was unarmed and defenseless when he was executed in broad daylight. And furthermore, since he says our calls for his client to be arrested somehow put his client in danger, we want him to know that the Arbery family is very relieved, and he can be very relieved, because the rule of law has prevailed and that his client was arrested based on evidence and probable cause. And he has no fear to worry about his client being in danger, because I am certain that he is safe in the Glynn County jail. And our clients, the Arbery family, would wish for him to remain safe and stay in the Glynn County jail for a long time, as they continue to push for justice for their son, Ahmaud Arbery.
AMY GOODMAN: Ben Crump, the video keeps showing Ahmaud Arbery going into this construction site where a house is being built. But other video has been released that shows white people, over and over again, going into this construction site. You know, it’s a house being built. It’s completely open. A white couple, for example, that very day, walking in, sort of touring around.
BENJAMIN CRUMP: Yes, ma’am. And that underscores the point that this was never about any trespassing or burglary. This was always about profiling Ahmaud Arbery because of the color of his skin. And we are requesting and imploring the federal Department of Justice to handle this matter as a hate crime. There can be a parallel prosecution with the state district attorney who’s assigned to the case, as well as the Department of Justice, under the Shepard Hate Crime Act, because we believe Ahmaud Arbery was killed based on the color of his skin. He was lynched in 2020. And we have to send a message, not only to his family and community, but to the entire world, that, America, we are better than this.
AMY GOODMAN: Ben Crump, also, what about the Justice Department, the calls for them to open a hate crimes investigation into what happened? I mean, clearly, the two men, Greg McMichael and his son — Greg McMichael, former police officer, investigator — they walked free for months, before the video got out. The question of the corruption within the Glynn County, the district attorney, all of that, going — well, now the question of where the Justice Department is.
BENJAMIN CRUMP: Absolutely. We want the Justice Department to not only open a hate crime investigation, but we want them to look at the due process of law violations under the 14th Amendment involving everybody who was involved in this investigation, from the police officers who were first on the scene to the first DA, Jackie Johnson, who, it is alleged, told the police not to file charges in the case; to the second district attorney, Barnhill, who also said, like Jackie Johnson, he had a conflict of interest, but yet wrote a memorandum saying that he saw no probable cause to arrest this murderous father-and-son duo, and, in essence, put his thumb on the scales of justice in favor of the McMichaels; and the third prosecutor, who said when he looked at this video and he looked at all this evidence, the statements, said that he didn’t feel he could arrest them, that he had to take it to a grand jury; and so, the Glynn County Sheriff’s Department, who leaked the video of Ahmaud Arbery from three years prior, we believe, in an attempt to assassinate his character, as well as Robert Rash, the police officer who sent the text to the homeowner that condoned and encouraged this vigilante mob to capture and confront Ahmaud Arbery.
AMY GOODMAN: Shaun King said yesterday classmates of Travis McMichael said he was the single most racist man they ever knew and that when they heard he had been involved in this, they were not shocked.


democracynow--2020-05-22--Headlines for May 22, 2020

Headlines for May 22, 2020

President Trump toured a Ford manufacturing plant in Michigan that was repurposed to make personal protective equipment .
Trump refused to wear a mask while speaking to the press inside the plant , in defiance of an executive order from the state ’ s governor and the plant ’ s own rules .
Trump said he wore one during a tour of the Ford plant but took it off before speaking to reporters .
President Donald Trump : “ Well , I did wear — I had one on before .
I wore one in this back area .
But @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the press the pleasure of seeing it.
” Photos later emerged showing Trump wearing a mask during a tour of the plant .
Trump ’ s visit to Michigan came at a time when the state is facing three major crises : The COVID outbreak has killed more than 5,100 people in Michigan ; the state ’ s unemployment rate is at an all-time high of 22.7 % percent ; and more than 10,000 homes were evacuated in Midland , the home of Dow Chemical , after two dams breached earlier this week @ @ @ @

President Trump toured a Ford manufacturing plant in Michigan that was repurposed to make personal protective equipment. Trump refused to wear a mask while speaking to the press inside the plant, in defiance of an executive order from the state’s governor and the plant’s own rules. Trump said he wore one during a tour of the Ford plant but took it off before speaking to reporters.
President Donald Trump: “Well, I did wear — I had one on before. I wore one in this back area. But I didn’t want to give the press the pleasure of seeing it.”
Photos later emerged showing Trump wearing a mask during a tour of the plant. Trump’s visit to Michigan came at a time when the state is facing three major crises: The COVID outbreak has killed more than 5,100 people in Michigan; the state’s unemployment rate is at an all-time high of 22.7% percent; and more than 10,000 homes were evacuated in Midland, the home of Dow Chemical, after two dams breached earlier this week after heavy rainfall.


democracynow--2020-05-25--Noam Chomsky on Trump's Disastrous Coronavirus Response, WHO, China, Gaza and Global Capitalism

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : We ’ re broadcasting from New York , the epicenter of the coronavirus pandemic .
The United States itself is the worldwide epicenter with about a third of the world ’ s reported infections and a quarter of the global death toll , even though the U.S. makes up less than 5 % of the world ’ s population .
This comes as the U.S. Labor Department says roughly 40 million Americans have filed for unemployment benefits since mid-March , and the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to rival the Great Depression .
Well , for more on the political implications of this unprecedented moment , we ’ re spending the hour with Noam Chomsky , the world-renowned political dissident , linguist and author , laureate professor in the Department of Linguistics at the University of Arizona , Tucson , professor emeritus at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology , where he taught for more than half a century .
His recent books include Global Discontents : Conversations on the Rising Threats to Democracy , Who Rules the World ?
and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 10 Principles of Concentration of Wealth & Power .
Noam Chomsky joined us for a conversation in April from his home in Tucson , Arizona , where he ’ s sheltering in place with his wife Valeria .
We spoke on the day that Senator Bernie Sanders announced he was suspending his presidential campaign , making former Vice President Joe Biden the presumptive nominee to face Donald Trump in the November election .
I began by asking Professor Chomsky about what ’ s happening right now in the context of the 2020 elections @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
AMY GOODMAN : Noam , you mention Peter Navarro , the trade representative , sending a memo — it just came out in The New York Times — in late January warning of the coronavirus , saying that , I think , something like up to a million people could die .
And Trump took from that setting a travel ban on China , but not doing a corollary , which was ensuring that the United States had the proper tests and also had the PPE , the protective personal equipment , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the custodial staff in hospitals needed to stay alive , to treat patients , to help them stay alive .
And the intelligence agencies , it came out , at this time , even before Navarro , they were all warning Trump .
If you could go back to even two years ago , when he disbanded his pandemic unit within the National Security Council , said that when he ’ s at the table in China talking about spending money on bombs or a wall , they ’ re not saying , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ look at what ’ s happening here ” ?
And that unit , pandemic unit , not only is about how we deal in the United States , but also ensuring , as the CDC does and other agencies of the U.S. government , that scientists are sent out to other countries , like China , to investigate and to help other countries , because when it comes to a pandemic , we ’ re all in this together .
So , if you could talk about these early warnings and why testing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is so important ?
AMY GOODMAN : We ’ ll be back with professor Noam Chomsky in a minute .
AMY GOODMAN : “ Shout ” by the Isley Brothers .
This is Democracy Now !
, democracynow.org , The Quarantine Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman .
We ’ re spending the hour with Noam Chomsky , the world-renowned political dissident , linguist and author , laureate professor in the Department of Linguistics at The University of Arizona , Tucson , professor emeritus at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology , where @ @ @ @ @ @ @ century .
AMY GOODMAN : So , this is a clip , Noam , of The Daily Show with Trevor Noah called “ Saluting the Heroes of the Coronavirus Pandumbic.
” It ’ s extended , the three-minute video , highlighting members of the right-wing media , like Sean Hannity , Rush Limbaugh , Tomi Lahren and others , as well as Republican members of Congress and the Trump administration , downplaying or mocking the coronavirus pandemic .
It starts on February 24th and ends with Donald Trump claiming March 17th and Hannity @ @ @ @ @ @ @ taken the pandemic seriously .
This is “ Saluting the Heroes of the Coronavirus Pandumbic.
” SEAN HANNITY : Tonight I can report the sky is absolutely falling .
We are all doomed .
The end is near .
The apocalypse is imminent , and you ’ re going to all die .
Or at least that ’ s what the media mob would like you to think .
RUSH LIMBAUGH : Yeah , I ’ m dead right on this .
The coronavirus is the common cold , folks .
The hype @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as the Andromeda Strain , as “ oh my god , if you get it , you ’ re dead.
” PETE HEGSETH : This is one of those cases where the more I learn about coronavirus , the less concerned I am .
There ’ s a lot of hyperbole .
LOU DOBBS : The national left-wing media playing up fears of the coronavirus .
TOMI LAHREN : The sky is falling because we have a few dozen cases of coronavirus on a cruise ship ?
I am far more concerned with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I am getting the coronavirus .
But maybe that ’ s just me .
JEANINE PIRRO : It ’ s a virus like the flu .
All the talk about coronavirus being so much more deadly doesn ’ t reflect reality .
DR. MARC SIEGEL : This virus should be compared to the flu , because at worst — at worst , worst-case scenario — it could be the flu .
GERALDO RIVERA : The far more deadly , more lethal threat right now is not the coronavirus , it ’ s this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ old flu .
People are dying right now .
STEVE DOOCY : The flu is here , everywhere .
GERALDO RIVERA : Nobody has died yet in the United States , as far as we know , from this disease .
LAURA INGRAHAM : And the facts are actually pretty reassuring .
But you ’ d never know it , watching all this stuff .
JESSE WATTERS : You want to know how I really feel about the coronavirus , Juan ?
If I get it , I ’ ll beat it .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ coronavirus , and no one else should be that afraid , either .
MATT SCHLAPP : It is very , very difficult to contract this virus .
DR. DREW PINSKY : It ’ s milder than we thought .
The fatality rate is going to drop .
ED HENRY : When you hear the context , it ’ s not quite as scary .
AINSLEY EARHARDT : It ’ s actually the safest time to fly .
Everyone I know that ’ s flying right now , terminals are pretty much dead .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ in the day when you had a seat next to you possibly empty ?
You could stretch out a little more ?
It ’ s like that on every flight now .
REP. DEVIN NUNES : One of the things you can do , if you ’ re healthy , you and your family , it ’ s a great time to just go out , go to a local restaurant .
REP. DEVIN NUNES : Likely , you can get in , get in easily .
NEWS ANCHOR : Republican Congressman Matt @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the virus by wearing a gas mask on Capitol Hill .
JOHN KING : [ reading ] “ When a reporter in the Capitol asked Senator Inhofe of Oklahoma , 85 , what precautions he was taking … [ he ] extended his arm with confidence : ' Wan na shake hands ? '
” VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE : In our line of work , you shake hands .
I expect the president will continue to do that .
I ’ ll continue to do it .
LARRY KUDLOW : We have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ — I won ’ t say airtight , but pretty close to airtight .
KELLYANNE CONWAY : It is being contained .
And do you not think it ’ s being contained ?
SEAN HANNITY : Zero people in the United States of America have died from the coronavirus .
Zero .
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP : This is a flu .
This is like a flu .
It ’ s going to disappear one day .
It ’ s like a miracle .
It will disappear .
… I have felt it was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a pandemic .
I took it very seriously .
SEAN HANNITY : By the way , this program has always taken the coronavirus seriously .
AMY GOODMAN : Noam Chomsky , world-renowned political dissident , linguist and author , speaking to us from Tucson , where he ’ s sheltering at home .
We ’ ll be back with him in a moment .
AMY GOODMAN : “ Diamonds & Rust ” by Joan Baez .
This is Democracy Now !
, democracynow.org , The Quarantine Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with Noam Chomsky , world-renowned linguist , political dissident and author .
AMY GOODMAN : World-renowned political dissident , linguist and author , Noam Chomsky , laureate professor in the Department of Linguistics at the University of Arizona , professor emeritus at Massachusetts Institute of Technology , where he taught for more than half a century .
Noam joined us from his home in Tucson , Arizona , where he is sheltering in place .
And that does it for our show .
To see more of our conversation , go to democracynow.org @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for our daily quarantine report .
Democracy Now !
is working with as few people on site as possible .
The majority of our amazing team is working from home .
Democracy Now !
is produced with Renée Feltz , Mike Burke , Deena Guzder , Libby Rainey , Nermeen Shaikh , Carla Wills , Tami Woronoff , Charina Nadura , Sam Alcoff , Tey-Marie Astudillo , John Hamilton , Robby Karran , Hany Massoud , Adriano Contreras and María Taracena .
Our general manager is Julie Crosby .
Special thanks to Becca @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , Mike DiFilippo , Miguel Nogueira , Hugh Gran , Denis Moynihan , David Prude and Dennis McCormick .
Please be safe .
I ’ m Amy Goodman .
Thanks so much for joining us .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re broadcasting from New York, the epicenter of the coronavirus pandemic. The United States itself is the worldwide epicenter with about a third of the world’s reported infections and a quarter of the global death toll, even though the U.S. makes up less than 5% of the world’s population. This comes as the U.S. Labor Department says roughly 40 million Americans have filed for unemployment benefits since mid-March, and the scale of U.S. job losses is set to rival the Great Depression.
Well, for more on the political implications of this unprecedented moment, we’re spending the hour with Noam Chomsky, the world-renowned political dissident, linguist and author, laureate professor in the Department of Linguistics at the University of Arizona, Tucson, professor emeritus at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, where he taught for more than half a century. His recent books include Global Discontents: Conversations on the Rising Threats to Democracy, Who Rules the World? and Requiem for the American Dream: The 10 Principles of Concentration of Wealth & Power.
Noam Chomsky joined us for a conversation in April from his home in Tucson, Arizona, where he’s sheltering in place with his wife Valeria. We spoke on the day that Senator Bernie Sanders announced he was suspending his presidential campaign, making former Vice President Joe Biden the presumptive nominee to face Donald Trump in the November election. I began by asking Professor Chomsky about what’s happening right now in the context of the 2020 elections, what he sees happening in November.
NOAM CHOMSKY: If Trump is reelected, it’s a indescribable disaster. It means that the policies of the past four years, which have been extremely destructive to the American population, to the world, will be continued and probably accelerated. What this is going to mean for health is bad enough. I just mentioned the Lancet figures. It will get worse. What this means for the environment or the threat of nuclear war, which no one is talking about but is extremely serious, is indescribable.
Suppose Biden is elected. I would anticipate it would be essentially a continuation of Obama — nothing very great, but at least not totally destructive, and opportunities for an organized public to change what is being done, to impose pressures.
It’s common to say now that the Sanders campaign failed. I think that’s a mistake. I think it was an extraordinary success, completely shifted the arena of debate and discussion. Issues that were unthinkable a couple years ago are now right in the middle of attention.
The worst crime he committed, in the eyes of the establishment, is not the policy he’s proposing; it’s the fact that he was able to inspire popular movements, which had already been developing — Occupy, Black Lives Matter, many others — and turn them into an activist movement, which doesn’t just show up every couple years to push a lever and then go home, but applies constant pressure, constant activism and so on. That could affect a Biden administration. It could also — even if it’s just a holding action, it means there’s time to deal with the major crises.
Take Medicare for All or, the other major plank in Sanders’s program, free college education. Across the whole mainstream spectrum, all the way to what’s called the left in the mainstream, this is condemned as too radical for Americans. Just think what that means. That’s an attack on American culture and society, which you would expect from some hostile enemy. What it’s saying is it’s too radical to say that we should rise to the level of comparable countries. They all have some form of national healthcare. Most of them have free higher education — the best-performing countries nationally, like Finland, free; Germany, free; right to our south, Mexico, a poor country, high-quality higher education, free. So, to say we should rise to the level of the rest of the world is considered too radical for Americans. It’s an astonishing comment. As I say, it’s a critique of America that you’d expect from some super hostile enemy.
That’s the left of the spectrum. Tells you that we have really deep problems. It’s not just Trump. He’s made it much worse, but the problems go much deeper, just like, say, the ventilator catastrophe, which I described, just based on good capitalist logic with the extra hammer blow of making the government ineffectual to deal with things. This is much deeper than Trump. And we have to face those facts. Some do. I’m sure you reported — I don’t remember — you probably reported the setting of the Doomsday Clock in January. OK?
AMY GOODMAN: Yes.
NOAM CHOMSKY: Notice what happened. All through Trump’s term, the minute hand of the Doomsday Clock, the best general assessment we have of the state of the world, moved closer to midnight — termination — reached the highest point ever. This January, it exceeded it. The analysts gave up minutes, moved to seconds: a hundred seconds to midnight, thanks to Donald Trump.
And the Republican Party, which is just monstrous, no longer qualifies as a political party. It simply sheepishly echoes everything the master says. Zero integrity. It’s just amazing to watch. He’s surrounded himself by a collection of sycophants who just repeat worshipfully everything he says. Real major attack on democracy, alongside the attack on “the survival of humanity,” to quote JPMorgan Chase again — the nuclear war, raising the threat of nuclear war, dismantling the arms control system, which has, to some extent, protected us from total disaster. It’s astonishing to watch.
The same memo that I quoted about how the policies we’re following are risking the survival of humanity ended by arguing that the banks should cut back its fossil fuel support, in part because of the reputational consequences. Their reputation is being harmed. What does that mean? That means that activists are putting pressure on them, and they have to maintain some kind of reputation. Now, that’s a good lesson.
And it works. We’ve seen some very striking examples. Take, say, the Green New Deal. A couple of years ago, that was an object of ridicule, if it was mentioned at all. Some form of Green New Deal is essential for the survival of humanity. Now it’s part of the general agenda. Why? Activist engagement. Especially Sunrise Movement, a group of young people, acted significantly, up to the point of sitting in in congressional offices. They received support from Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and other young legislators who came into office as part of the Sanders-inspired popular wave — another great success. Ed Markey, senator from Massachusetts joined in. Now it’s a part of the legislative agenda. The next step is to force it through in some viable form. And there are very good ideas as to how to do that. Well, that’s the way things can change.
With a Biden presidency, there would be, if not a strongly sympathetic administration, at least one that can be reached, can be pressured. And that’s very important. If you look over the very good labor historian — I’m sure you know Erik Loomis, who has studied the efforts by working people to institute changes in the society, sometimes for themselves, sometimes for the society generally. And he’s pointed out — made an interesting point. These efforts succeeded when there was a tolerant or sympathetic administration, not when there wasn’t. That’s a big — one of many enormous differences between Trump, the sociopath, and Biden, who’s kind of a pretty empty — you can push him one way or another. This is the most crucial election in human history, literally. Another four years of Trump, and we’re in deep trouble.
AMY GOODMAN: If you can talk about the enormity of this moment and the fact that the United States has become the epicenter of the pandemic in the world? Can you hold forth on this? What does this mean, the wealthiest country in the world?
NOAM CHOMSKY: Well, the United States is — I mean, countries have reacted to this in many ways, some very successfully, some more or less successfully. One is at the bottom of the barrel. That’s us. The United States is the only major country that cannot even provide data to the World Health Organization, because it’s so dysfunctional.
There’s a background. Part of the background is the scandalous healthcare system, which simply is not ready for anything that’s out of the normal. It simply doesn’t work. This is exacerbated by the strange collection of gangsters in Washington, who have — it’s almost as if they systematically took every possible step to make it as bad as possible. Through Trump’s term, the last four years, he has been systematically cutting back on all of the health-related aspects of the government. Pentagon goes up. Building his wall goes up. But anything — actually, anything that might benefit the general population goes down, particularly health.
Some of it is almost surreal. So, in October, for example, just very exquisite timing, he canceled completely a USAID project — Predict, it was called — that was working in Third World countries, also in China, to try to detect new viruses that might turn into the anticipated pandemic. And in fact it was anticipated since — at least since the SARS epidemic in 2003. So we have a kind of combination of factors, some of them specific to the United States.
If we want to ensure or at least hope to avoid new pandemics, which are very likely to come, more serious than this one, in part because of the enormous rising threat of global warming, we have to look at the sources of this one. And it’s very important to think them through. So, just roughly to go back, pandemics have been predicted by scientists for years. The SARS epidemic was quite serious. It was contained, but vaccines were — there was the beginning of development of vaccines. They never proceeded to the testing phase. It was clear at that time that something more was going to happen, and several epidemics did.
But it’s not enough to know that. Somebody has to pick up the ball and run with it. Who can do it? Well, the drug companies are the obvious place, but they have no interest in it. They follow good capitalist logic: You look at market signals, and there’s no profit to be made in preparing for a predicted and anticipated catastrophe. So they weren’t interested.
At that point, another possibility is the government could step in. I’m old enough to remember the terror of polio was ended by a government-initiated and -funded project that finally led to the Salk vaccine, which was free, no intellectual property rights. Jonas Salk said it should be as free as the sun. OK, that ended the polio terror, measles terror, others. But the government couldn’t step in, because there’s another particular aspect of the modern era: the neoliberal plague. Now, you remember Ronald Reagan’s sunny smile and his little maxim about how government is the problem, not the solution. So the government can’t enter.
There were some efforts, nevertheless, to try to prepare for this. Right now in New York and other places, doctors and nurses are forced to make agonizing decisions about who to kill — not a nice decision to make — because they simply don’t have equipment. And the main lack is ventilators, huge shortage of ventilators. Well, the Obama administration did make an effort to try to prepare for this. And this kind of dramatically reveals the kind of factors that are leading to catastrophe. They contracted with a small company that was producing high-quality, low-cost ventilators. The company was bought up by a larger one, Covidien, which makes fancy, expensive ventilators. And they shelved the project. Presumably, they didn’t want competition with their own costly ones. Shortly after that, they turned to the government and said they wanted the contract ended. The reason was it was not profitable enough, so therefore no ventilators.
We have the same thing in hospitals. Hospitals, under the neoliberal programs, are supposed to be efficient, meaning no spare capacity, just enough beds to get by. And in fact, plenty of people, me included, can testify that even the best hospitals caused great pain and suffering to patients even before this broke out, because of this just-on-time efficiency concept that was guiding our privatized, for-profit healthcare system. When anything hits out of the normal, it’s just tough luck. And this runs across the system.
So we have a combination of capitalist logic, which is lethal but could be controlled, but it can’t be controlled under the neoliberal programs, which also say the government can’t step in to pick up the ball when the private sector doesn’t.
On top of that — now, this becomes specific to the United States — we have a freak show in Washington, a totally dysfunctional government, which is causing enormous problems. And it’s not that nothing was known. A pandemic was anticipated all through Trump’s term, even before. His reaction was to cut back preparation for it. Astonishingly, this continued even after the pandemic hit.
So, on February 10th, when it was already serious, Trump released his budget for the coming year. Take a look at it. The budget continues the defunding of the Center for Disease Control and other government institutions responsible for health, continues to defund them. It increases funding for some things, like fossil fuel production, gives new subsidies to the fossil fuel industries. I mean, it’s as if the country is simply — maybe not “as if” — the country is simply run by sociopaths.
And the result, so, we cut back on the efforts to deal with the pandemic that’s taking shape, and we increase the efforts to destroy the environment, in which — the efforts in which the United States, under Trump, is in the lead in racing to the abyss. Now, bear in mind that that’s — I don’t have to tell you — is a far more serious threat than the coronavirus. Now, this is bad and serious, particularly in the United States, but we’ll recover somehow, at severe cost. We’re not going to recover from the melting of the polar ice sheets, which is leading to a feedback effect, well known, that increases — as they melt, there’s less reflective surface, more absorption in the dark seas. The warming that’s melting increases. That’s just one of the factors that’s leading to destruction, unless we do something about it.
And it’s not a secret. Just recently, for example, couple of weeks ago, there was a very interesting leak, a memo from JPMorgan Chase, America’s biggest bank, which warned that, in their words, “the survival of humanity” is at risk if we continue on our present course, which included the funding of fossil fuel industries by the bank itself, said we’re endangering the survival of humanity. Everyone who’s got eyes open in the Trump administration is very well aware of this. It’s difficult to find words for this.
I should say, other countries have — first of all, it was not a secret. I mean, it’s become convenient now. Trump is desperately seeking some scapegoat that he can blame for his astonishing failures and incompetence. The most recent one is the World Health Organization, the China bashing. Somebody else is responsible.
But it’s simply — the facts are very clear. China very quickly informed the World Health Organization last December that they were finding patients with pneumonia-like symptoms with unknown etiology. Didn’t know what it was. About a week later, January 7th, they made public the fact to the World Health Organization, the general scientific community in the world, that Chinese scientists had found out what the source was: a coronavirus resembling the SARS virus. They had identified the sequence, the genome. They were providing the information to the world.
U.S. intelligence was well aware of it. They spent January and February trying to get somebody in the White House to pay attention to the fact that there’s a major pandemic. Just nobody could listen. Trump was off playing golf or maybe listening — checking his TV ratings. Yesterday, we learned that one very high-level official, very close to the administration, Peter Navarro, in late January had sent a very strong message to the White House saying this is a real danger. But even he couldn’t break through.
AMY GOODMAN: Noam, you mention Peter Navarro, the trade representative, sending a memo — it just came out in The New York Times — in late January warning of the coronavirus, saying that, I think, something like up to a million people could die. And Trump took from that setting a travel ban on China, but not doing a corollary, which was ensuring that the United States had the proper tests and also had the PPE, the protective personal equipment, that doctors, that nurses, that the custodial staff in hospitals needed to stay alive, to treat patients, to help them stay alive. And the intelligence agencies, it came out, at this time, even before Navarro, they were all warning Trump. If you could go back to even two years ago, when he disbanded his pandemic unit within the National Security Council, said that when he’s at the table in China talking about spending money on bombs or a wall, they’re not saying, “Sir, you also have to look at what’s happening here”? And that unit, pandemic unit, not only is about how we deal in the United States, but also ensuring, as the CDC does and other agencies of the U.S. government, that scientists are sent out to other countries, like China, to investigate and to help other countries, because when it comes to a pandemic, we’re all in this together. So, if you could talk about these early warnings and why testing and this personal — protective personal equipment is so important?
NOAM CHOMSKY: Well, remember that it continued even after the pandemic was already in force. Now, the budget proposal is astonishing. This is February 10th, well into the pandemic. Trump cuts further the health-related components of the government, continuing the hit. They were under the ax, just as they were throughout his term.
Actually, the clips that you played before are part of a very clever strategy. Whether this is consciously planned or just intuitive, I don’t know. But the pattern of simply making one statement today, contradicting it tomorrow, coming out with something else the next day is really brilliant. It means he’s going to be vindicated. Whatever happens, he’ll have said it. You shoot arrows at random, some of them are going to hit the target. And his technique with the Fox echo chamber and the worshipful base simply tuned to Fox, Limbaugh, etc., they’re just going to pick whatever happened to be right, and say, “Look, our wonderful president, the greatest president we’ve ever had, our savior, knew it all along, and here was his statement.” Can’t miss.
It’s very much like the technique of producing constant lies. You know, I don’t even have to go through it. The assiduous fact-checkers tot them up. I think it’s maybe 20,000 by now or something. And he’s laughing all the way. This is perfect. You tell constant lies, what happens is the concept of truth just disappears.
AMY GOODMAN: We’ll be back with professor Noam Chomsky in a minute.
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AMY GOODMAN: “Shout” by the Isley Brothers. This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The Quarantine Report. I’m Amy Goodman. We’re spending the hour with Noam Chomsky, the world-renowned political dissident, linguist and author, laureate professor in the Department of Linguistics at The University of Arizona, Tucson, professor emeritus at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, where he taught for more than half a century.
AMY GOODMAN: So, this is a clip, Noam, of The Daily Show with Trevor Noah called “Saluting the Heroes of the Coronavirus Pandumbic.” It’s extended, the three-minute video, highlighting members of the right-wing media, like Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Tomi Lahren and others, as well as Republican members of Congress and the Trump administration, downplaying or mocking the coronavirus pandemic. It starts on February 24th and ends with Donald Trump claiming March 17th and Hannity saying March 18th that they had always taken the pandemic seriously. This is “Saluting the Heroes of the Coronavirus Pandumbic.” SEAN HANNITY: Tonight I can report the sky is absolutely falling. We are all doomed. The end is near. The apocalypse is imminent, and you’re going to all die. Or at least that’s what the media mob would like you to think. RUSH LIMBAUGH: Yeah, I’m dead right on this. The coronavirus is the common cold, folks. The hype of this thing as a pandemic, as the Andromeda Strain, as “oh my god, if you get it, you’re dead.” PETE HEGSETH: This is one of those cases where the more I learn about coronavirus, the less concerned I am. There’s a lot of hyperbole. LOU DOBBS: The national left-wing media playing up fears of the coronavirus. TOMI LAHREN: The sky is falling because we have a few dozen cases of coronavirus on a cruise ship? I am far more concerned with stepping on a used heroin needle than I am getting the coronavirus. But maybe that’s just me. JEANINE PIRRO: It’s a virus like the flu. All the talk about coronavirus being so much more deadly doesn’t reflect reality. DR. MARC SIEGEL: This virus should be compared to the flu, because at worst — at worst, worst-case scenario — it could be the flu. GERALDO RIVERA: The far more deadly, more lethal threat right now is not the coronavirus, it’s this — it’s the ordinary, old flu. People are dying right now. STEVE DOOCY: The flu is here, everywhere. GERALDO RIVERA: Nobody has died yet in the United States, as far as we know, from this disease. STEVE DOOCY: That’s right. LAURA INGRAHAM: And the facts are actually pretty reassuring. But you’d never know it, watching all this stuff. JESSE WATTERS: You want to know how I really feel about the coronavirus, Juan? If I get it, I’ll beat it. I’m not afraid of the coronavirus, and no one else should be that afraid, either. MATT SCHLAPP: It is very, very difficult to contract this virus. DR. DREW PINSKY: It’s milder than we thought. The fatality rate is going to drop. ED HENRY: When you hear the context, it’s not quite as scary. AINSLEY EARHARDT: It’s actually the safest time to fly. Everyone I know that’s flying right now, terminals are pretty much dead. And then the planes — remember back in the day when you had a seat next to you possibly empty? You could stretch out a little more? It’s like that on every flight now. REP. DEVIN NUNES: One of the things you can do, if you’re healthy, you and your family, it’s a great time to just go out, go to a local restaurant. MARIA BARTIROMO: Yeah. REP. DEVIN NUNES: Likely, you can get in, get in easily. NEWS ANCHOR: Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz mocked concerns about the spread of the virus by wearing a gas mask on Capitol Hill. JOHN KING: [reading] “When a reporter in the Capitol asked Senator Inhofe of Oklahoma, 85, what precautions he was taking … [he] extended his arm with confidence: 'Wanna shake hands?'” VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: In our line of work, you shake hands. I expect the president will continue to do that. I’ll continue to do it. LARRY KUDLOW: We have contained this. We have contained this — I won’t say airtight, but pretty close to airtight. KELLYANNE CONWAY: It is being contained. And do you not think it’s being contained? SEAN HANNITY: Zero people in the United States of America have died from the coronavirus. Zero. PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: This is a flu. This is like a flu. It’s going to disappear one day. It’s like a miracle. It will disappear. … I have felt it was a pandemic long before it was called a pandemic. I took it very seriously. SEAN HANNITY: By the way, this program has always taken the coronavirus seriously.
AMY GOODMAN: That was Sean Hannity and Donald Trump, right before that, on March 17th and 18th, saying, “We have always taken the coronavirus pandemic seriously.” “Saluting the Heroes of the Coronavirus Pandumbic” from The Daily Show with Trevor Noah, who is now doing his show each night from home to protect against community spread. So, Noam Chomsky, world-renowned political dissident, well-known linguist, author, activist, as you listen to the Fox News — this is not just a channel; these are the people that President Trump channels. These are perhaps his senior advisers, as they continually played this down. Do you hold President Trump responsible? Would you say he has blood on his hands?
NOAM CHOMSKY: There’s no question. Trump makes some crazy statement. It’s then amplified by the Fox News echo chamber. The next day, he says the opposite. That’s echoed; the echo chamber amplifies that. Notice that the tone — the tone of the reporting is interesting. It’s all with perfect confidence, not what any sane, rational person would say — “We really don’t know. There’s a lot of uncertainty. This is the way things look today.” There’s nothing like that. Absolute confidence. No matter what the dear leader says, we amplify it. And it’s an interesting dialogue. They amplify what he says. Sean Hannity can say, “This is the greatest move that was ever made in the history of the world.” And the next morning, Trump tunes in to Fox & Friends, listens to whatever is said. That becomes his thought for the day. It’s an interaction, Murdoch and Trump moving literally to try to destroy the country and destroy the world, because in the background, we should never forget, is a far greater threat that is coming closer and closer while Trump is leading the way to destruction.
He has some assistance. So, down on the southern part of the hemisphere, there’s another madman, i.e. Jair Bolsonaro, who’s trying to vie with Trump to see who can be the worst criminal on the planet. He’s telling the Brazilians, “It’s nothing. It’s just a cold. Brazilians don’t get viruses. We’re immune to them.” His health minister and other officials are trying to butt in and say, “Look, this is really serious.” The governors, many of them, fortunately, are ignoring what he says. But Brazil is facing a terrible crisis. It’s actually gotten to the point where in the favelas, you know, these miserable slums, in Rio, where the government does nothing for the people, others have intervened to try to impose sensible restrictions, insofar as it’s possible under those miserable conditions. Who? The crime gangs. The crime gangs, that torture the population, have moved in to try to impose health standards. The indigenous population is facing a virtual genocide, which won’t bother Bolsonaro. He doesn’t think they should be there anyway. Meanwhile, while all this is going on, scientific papers are coming out warning that in 15 years the Amazon is going to shift from being a net carbon sink to a net CO2 emitter. That’s devastating for Brazil — in fact, for the whole world.
So, we have the Colossus of the North, as it’s called, in the hands of sociopaths, who are doing whatever they can to harm the country and the world. And the Colossus of the South, as it’s been called, is, in its own way, doing the same thing. I’m able to follow this pretty closely because my wife Valeria is Brazilian and keeps me up to date with the news that’s coming out in Brazil. And it’s simply shocking to see.
But meanwhile, other countries are reacting sensibly. So, as soon as the news started coming out from China — and there was plenty of news right away, contrary to what is being claimed — the countries on the Chinese periphery began to react — Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore — quite effectively. Some of them have it basically under control. New Zealand has apparently quashed the coronavirus, maybe almost completely, with a lockdown right away, an immediate lockdown for a couple of weeks, and seems to have come close to ending it. You look into Europe, and most of Europe just dithered, but some countries, the better-organized countries, did act right away. It’s very striking. It would be very useful for Americans to compare Trump’s ravings, of the kind you illustrated, with Angela Merkel’s, German chancellor, her sober, factual account and talk to the German people, describing exactly what’s happening and what has to be done.
AMY GOODMAN: Noam, we only have a minute, but I wanted to ask you, as we speak to you at your home in Tucson, Arizona, where you are sheltering at home, where you are staying at home because we are in the midst of this pandemic, to prevent community spread and to protect yourself and your family: What gives you hope?
NOAM CHOMSKY: Well, I should say that I’m following a strict regimen, because my wife Valeria is taking charge, and I follow her orders. So Valeria and I are in isolation.
But what gives me hope is the actions that popular groups are taking all over the world, many of them. Some of them are — there are some things happening that are truly inspiring. Take the doctors and the nurses who are working overtime under extremely dangerous conditions, lacking — especially in the United States, lacking even minimal support, being compelled to make these agonizing decisions about who to kill tomorrow. But they’re doing it. It’s just a — it’s an inspiring tribute to the resources of the human spirit, a model of what can be done, along with the popular actions, the moves to create a Progressive International. These are all very positive signs.
But you look back in recent history, there have been times where things looked really hopeless and desperate. I can go back to my early childhood, the late '30s, early ’40s. It looked as though the rise of the Nazi plague was inexorable, victory after victory. It looked like you couldn't stop it. It was the most horrible development in human history. Well, turns out — I didn’t know that at the time — that U.S. planners were expecting that the post-war world would be divided between a U.S.-controlled world and a German-controlled world, including all of Eurasia — a horrifying idea. Well, it was overcome. There have been other serious — the civil rights movement, Young Freedom Riders going out into Alabama to try to encourage black farmers to go to vote, despite the threat, serious threat, of being murdered, and being murdered themselves. These were some — this is examples of what humans can do and have done. And we see many signs of it today, and that’s the basis for hope.
AMY GOODMAN: Noam Chomsky, world-renowned political dissident, linguist and author, speaking to us from Tucson, where he’s sheltering at home. We’ll be back with him in a moment.
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AMY GOODMAN: “Diamonds & Rust” by Joan Baez. This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The Quarantine Report. I’m Amy Goodman, as we return to my interview with Noam Chomsky, world-renowned linguist, political dissident and author.
AMY GOODMAN: If you can talk for a moment, globally, about what’s happening on an issue that has been close to your heart for decades, and that is the Occupied Territories, Gaza and the West Bank, what it means for a place like Gaza, called by the U.N. and people around the world a kind of “open-air prison” of almost 2 million people, what the pandemic could mean there?
NOAM CHOMSKY: It’s almost impossible to think about. Gaza is 2 million people who are in the — living in a prison, open-air prison, under constant attack. Israel, which is the occupying power, recognized by everyone in the world except Israel — Israel is imposing — has been imposing very harsh sanctions ever since the Palestinians made the mistake of carrying out the first free election in the Arab world and electing the wrong people. The United States and Israel came down on them like a ton of bricks.
Israel’s policy, as was explained by Dov Weissglas, the person in charge of the withdrawal of Israeli troops, the withdrawal of the settlers and imposition of the new regime — he explained frankly, “We are putting the people of Gaza on a diet, just enough to keep them alive,” meaning wouldn’t look good if they all die, but not anything more than that. So, not a piece of chocolate or a toy for a child. That’s out. Just enough to stay alive. And if you have a serious health problem, maybe you can apply to go to the hospital in East Jerusalem. Maybe after a couple of weeks, you’ll be allowed to go. Maybe a child is allowed to go, but his mother is not allowed to come.
If the pandemic — there are now a couple of cases in Gaza. If that extends, it’s a total disaster. International institutions have pointed out that by 2020 — that’s now — Gaza will probably become barely livable. About 95% of the water is totally polluted. The place is a disaster. And Trump has made sure that it will get worse. He withdrew funding from the support systems for Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank — UNRWA, killed the funding; Palestinian hospitals, killed the funding. And he had a reason. They weren’t praising him enough. They weren’t respectful of the god, so, therefore, we’ll strangle them, even when they’re barely surviving under a harsh and brutal regime.
Incidentally, this extends to Palestinians in Israel, as well. Human rights activists in Israel pointed out recently — there’s articles about it in Haaretz — that Israel finally began to set up a few drive-by testing areas only in Jewish areas, not in the areas with Palestinian population. And to make sure that the intended results would follow, they announced it only in Hebrew, not in Arabic, so Palestinians wouldn’t even know. Well, that’s within Israel. In the Occupied Territories, far worse.
And the Trump hammer came in saying, “We’re not even going to give you a penny, because you’re not respectful enough of me.” I don’t know how to describe this kind of thing. I can’t find words for it.
AMY GOODMAN: Noam Chomsky, what do you think is required in an international response to stop the rise of authoritarianism in response to this pandemic? For example, in the Philippines, where the authoritarian leader, Trump ally, Duterte, talks about killing people; the massive crackdown, without support of the people of India, 1.3 billion people, with Narendra Modi. President Trump was in India as the pandemic was taking off, never saying a word about it, packing a stadium of 100,000 people. You have Orbán in Hungary, who is now ruling by decree. What would it take to turn that around to be a progressive response?
NOAM CHOMSKY: Well, actually, what’s happening, to the extent that you can find some coherent policy in the madness in the White House, one thing does emerge with considerable clarity — namely, an effort to construct an international of the most reactionary states and oppressive states, led by the gangster in the White House. Now, this is taking shape.
I can run through it, but since you mentioned India, Modi, who is a Hindu nationalist extremist, is systematically moving to destroy Indian secular democracy and to crush the Muslim population. What’s happening in Kashmir is horrifying. It was bad enough before, now getting much worse. Same with the Muslim population, a huge population in India. The current lockdown is almost — you can almost describe it as genocidal. Modi gave, I think, a four-hour warning saying total lockdown. That’s over a billion people. Some of them have nowhere to go. People in the informal economy, which is a huge number of people, are just cast out. “Go walk back to your village,” which may be a thousand miles away. “Die on the roadside.” This is a huge catastrophe in the making, right on top of the strong efforts to impose the ultra-right Hindutva doctrines that are at the core of Modi’s thinking and background.
What’s happening in — quite apart from this, India — in fact, South Asia generally — is going to become unlivable pretty soon, if current climate policies persist. Last summer, the temperature in Rajasthan went up to 50 degrees centigrade. And it’s increasing. There’s hundreds of millions of people in India that don’t have access to water. It’s going to get much worse, could lead to a nuclear war between the two powers that basically rely on the same water resources, which are declining under global warming: Pakistan and India. I mean, the horror story that’s developing is, again, indescribable. You can’t find words for it. And some people are cheering about it, like Donald Trump and his friend Bolsonaro in Brazil, a couple of other sociopaths.
But how do you counter a reactionary international? By developing a Progressive International. And there are steps to that. They don’t get much publicity, but this — I think it’s this coming December, there will be a formal announcement of what has been in process for some time. Yanis Varoufakis, the founder and leading figure in DiEM25, the progressive movement in Europe, very important — Varoufakis and Bernie Sanders came out with a declaration calling for a Progressive International to combat and, we hope, overcome the reactionary international based in the White House.
Now, if you look at the level of states, this looks like an extremely unequal competition. But states are not the only things that exist. If you look at the level of people, it’s not impossible. It’s possible to construct a Progressive International based on people, ranging from the organized political groups that have been proliferating, that have gotten a huge shot in the arm from the Sanders campaign, ranging from them to self-help mutual aid, self-help organizations that are rising in communities all over the world, in the most impoverished areas of Brazil, for example, and even this astonishing fact that I mentioned, that the murderous crime gangs are taking responsibility for bringing some form of decent protection against the pandemic in the favelas, the miserable slums, in Rio. All of this is happening on the popular level. If it expands and develops, if people don’t just give up in despair but work to change the world, as they’ve done in the past under much worse conditions, if they do that, there’s a chance for a Progressive International.
And notice, bear in mind, that there are also striking cases of internationalism, progressive internationalism, at the state level. So, take a look at the European Union. The rich countries in Europe, like Germany, have recently given us a lesson in just what the union means. Right? Germany is managing pretty well. They probably have the lowest death rate in the world, in organized society. Right next door, northern Italy is suffering miserably. Is Germany giving them any aid? No. In fact, Germany even blocked the effort to develop euro bonds, general bonds in Europe which could be used to alleviate the suffering in the countries under the worst conditions. But fortunately for Italy, it can look across the Atlantic for aid from the superpower on the Western Hemisphere, Cuba. Cuba is, once again, as before, exhibiting extraordinary internationalism, sending doctors to Italy. Germany won’t do it, but Cuba can. China is providing material aid. So, these are steps towards progressive internationalism at the state level.
AMY GOODMAN: World-renowned political dissident, linguist and author, Noam Chomsky, laureate professor in the Department of Linguistics at the University of Arizona, professor emeritus at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, where he taught for more than half a century. Noam joined us from his home in Tucson, Arizona, where he is sheltering in place.
And that does it for our show. To see more of our conversation, go to democracynow.org. You can also sign up there for our daily quarantine report. Democracy Now! is working with as few people on site as possible. The majority of our amazing team is working from home. Democracy Now! is produced with Renée Feltz, Mike Burke, Deena Guzder, Libby Rainey, Nermeen Shaikh, Carla Wills, Tami Woronoff, Charina Nadura, Sam Alcoff, Tey-Marie Astudillo, John Hamilton, Robby Karran, Hany Massoud, Adriano Contreras and María Taracena. Our general manager is Julie Crosby. Special thanks to Becca Staley, Miriam Barnard, Paul Powell, Mike DiFilippo, Miguel Nogueira, Hugh Gran, Denis Moynihan, David Prude and Dennis McCormick. Please be safe. I’m Amy Goodman. Thanks so much for joining us.


democracynow--2020-05-26--Stay Home, Stay Safe, Be Kind: What New Zealand Can Teach the World About Eliminating COVID-19

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
, democracynow.org , The Quarantine Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman , with Juan González , as we turn to New Zealand , which implemented one of the earliest lockdowns in response to the pandemic , has largely succeeded in eliminating the coronavirus , after the number of infections peaked in April .
There was just a single confirmed COVID-19 case reported in New Zealand last week .
This comes as a 5.8 magnitude earthquake struck @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Jacinda Ardern was in the middle of a live TV interview .
AMY GOODMAN : Starting last week , Prime Minister Ardern began transitioning New Zealand , a Pacific nation that ’ s home to more than 5 million people , from lockdown level 3 to level 2 , allowing most shops , restaurants , schools and workplaces to reopen .
Some of the country ’ s success has been attributed to Ardern ’ s leadership , trust in science , and clear communication during the crisis .
Instead of launching a war @ @ @ @ @ @ @ COVID-19 , and often calls the country , quote , “ our team of 5 million.
” In March , after putting her 21-month-old daughter to bed , Ardern hosted a Facebook Live session from her couch as New Zealanders submitted questions .
AMY GOODMAN : That was Jacinda Ardern in March .
On Sunday , the prime minister thanked her nation for staying home during the COVID-19 pandemic to break the chain of transmission and save lives .
AMY GOODMAN : Well , for more , we go to Wellington , New @ @ @ @ @ @ @ by Dr. Michael Baker , professor of public health at the University of Otago .
He ’ s an epidemiologist , a member of the New Zealand Ministry of Health ’ s Technical Advisory Group .
He ’ s been advising Prime Minister Ardern on the response to COVID-19 .
We welcome you to Democracy Now !
Thank you for staying up so late .
I ’ m holding The New York Times .
Front page of this weekend , “ U.S .
Deaths Near 100,000 , an Incalculable Loss.
” The whole @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hundreds of names .
We have something — under 5 % of the population , but more than a quarter of the deaths in the world .
Can you talk about what New Zealand can teach not only the United States , Brazil and other far more populous countries , but what you recognized early on and what you did , Dr. Baker ?
MICHAEL BAKER : Well , greetings from Wellington .
It ’ s a great pleasure to be on your program .
I think there are several lessons when you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ countries have responded , but I think one of the main messages is to respond decisively and have that combination of good science and good leadership .
And countries that have succeeded have done this .
And in the case of New Zealand , we had the same pandemic plan as many other countries , which was a good plan , but it was for a different virus .
It was for influenza .
And by late February , we realized this was more like a SARS virus , so we had to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I think across the Western world , there was this strange idea of complacent exceptionalism , that somehow the virus might behave differently when it hit the Western world compared with how it was in Asia .
But , in fact , we looked to Asia for examples of a good approach , and — for example , the way China contained the virus , and other Asian countries were managing it — we realized that elimination was possible , so we changed direction very quickly .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : And , Dr. @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in most of the advanced West , the focus has been on flattening the curve or mitigating the virus .
Could you talk about that discussion that went on in those early days about trying to eliminate it completely ?
MICHAEL BAKER : Yeah .
Well , that ’ s exactly right .
I mean , the approach for dealing with influenza pandemics is a mitigation one .
You can not contain it .
So , basically , the wave is going to wash over you , and the strategy is all about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ curve , reducing demand on the healthcare system and not overwhelming it , trying to protect the most vulnerable .
So , we are very familiar with those approaches .
But when we looked at the success of mainland China , and also Taiwan , in particular , with actually preventing the virus , stopping it at the borders , and also doing contact tracing to stamp out cases , we changed tack very quickly .
And so , you do things in a different order , if you realize that .
You @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on .
So , at the point that we had a hundred cases , no fatalities , around the 23rd of March , a decision was made to go for this elimination approach .
And that meant putting the whole country into a very intense lockdown for the best part of six weeks .
And that did three things .
It basically stamped out chains of transmission , because the whole country was effectively in home quarantine .
It also enabled us to build up a lot of capabilities that we really didn @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And that was to do a lot of testing , a lot of contact tracing , and also improve our board of quarantine .
And the third thing it did , it basically just explained to the whole country what physical distancing was all about , because we had never experienced a pandemic before .
We were barely affected by SARS .
And so , at the end of that — it ’ s a pretty harsh approach , but at the end of that , there was very little virus being transmitted @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ re now coming out of lockdown by degrees .
And it ’ s very different from coming out of lockdown overseas , because we ’ re trying to come down into a virus-free New Zealand .
And the evidence now , based on a huge amount of testing that we ’ re doing , is that there is not circulating virus in New Zealand .
We ’ re just getting the very tail end of some of the outbreaks .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : And could you talk about some of the particularities @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of being an island nation , to what degree that helped in your being able to stamp out the virus ?
And also , the role of your healthcare system , to what degree that made it easier or more difficult to deal with the pandemic ?
MICHAEL BAKER : Yeah .
Well , being an island , it ’ s much easier to manage your borders .
And really , that ’ s the number one thing you have to do .
But , actually , some countries with huge borders , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Vietnam , Mongolia — appear to be succeeding very well with the same elimination approach .
So , it doesn ’ t — you don ’ t have to be an island .
And , of course , many Pacific islands have taken an even more extreme approach .
They ’ ve just , if you like , lifted the drawbridge entirely and have excluded the virus .
So , it ’ s not a necessity to be an island .
The second point about the healthcare system , I think it helps @ @ @ @ @ @ @ because , obviously , you can deliver testing more easily .
You can manage your hospitals more effectively .
And so I think that ’ s helped in Australia , New Zealand and , I guess , also in some Asian countries that have a highly centralized healthcare system .
AMY GOODMAN : And can you talk about what you see the U.S. has done wrong ?
I mean , it ’ s just astounding the richest country in the world is the epicenter of this pandemic .
And if you can also @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ ve seen , particularly African Americans , far greater death toll than their population in the United States should be , very disproportionate ?
What happened in New Zealand with the Maori , with the Indigenous population , with low-income New Zealanders ?
Most importantly , what do you think the U.S. is doing wrong ?
MICHAEL BAKER : Yeah , well , firstly , looking at the inequalities , unfortunately , that seems to be a feature of pandemics and infectious disease in general , is they magnify social inequalities .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ is one of the central driving concerns with the healthcare system and with the pandemic response .
So equity has been a major driver .
It was also one of the reasons we have put , obviously , a huge amount of resources into the elimination approach , because the most pro-equity thing we can do is to keep the virus out .
And that is the situation now .
When I look at the United States , obviously , I ’ m very disappointed — or more than disappointed , because it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for leadership we look to the U.S. , particularly the Centers for Disease Control , we look to the U.K. , Public Health England , and with this — and also the World Health Organization — and , unfortunately , I think there was a severe error of judgment in assisting this pandemic , because there was a period when it was containable , but the advice was not to shut borders , and there was a complacent attitude .
So , I think that ’ s the number one problem , is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Western world have really let us down — and , I think , governments , as well — because this was an entirely preventable global catastrophe .
So I think that ’ s the number one requirement , is that science and leadership have to work together and recognize these threats and manage them accordingly .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : And also , could you talk about the issue of the legitimacy of leadership in terms of being able to effectuate these kinds of severe or stringent policies ?
Obviously , in China , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to completely isolate Wuhan , but in New Zealand you didn ’ t really have to deal with any kind of a major enforcement , per se .
Could you talk about that in the few seconds we have left ?
MICHAEL BAKER : Yeah , I think really empathetic leadership , as we ’ ve seen in New Zealand , helps .
But , actually , Australia has got a different style of government , and they ’ ve also succeeded .
But really , the best-performing country on Earth has actually @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they acted very early .
They didn ’ t need a lockdown .
And that was because they had a very strong public health agency , and they started managing their borders in January .
And they did everything right .
So , I think they ’ ve had a model response .
AMY GOODMAN : Michael Baker , we ’ re going to have to leave it there , but we ’ re going to continue with a post-show and post it online at democracynow.org , from New Zealand .
I ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Be safe .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The Quarantine Report. I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan González, as we turn to New Zealand, which implemented one of the earliest lockdowns in response to the pandemic, has largely succeeded in eliminating the coronavirus, after the number of infections peaked in April. There was just a single confirmed COVID-19 case reported in New Zealand last week. This comes as a 5.8 magnitude earthquake struck the capital Wellington Monday while Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern was in the middle of a live TV interview.
PRIME MINISTER JACINDA ARDERN: We’re just having a bit of an earthquake here, Ryan. Quite a — quite a decent shake here, but if you see things moving behind me. The beehive moves a little more than most. Yep, no, it’s just stopped.
AMY GOODMAN: Starting last week, Prime Minister Ardern began transitioning New Zealand, a Pacific nation that’s home to more than 5 million people, from lockdown level 3 to level 2, allowing most shops, restaurants, schools and workplaces to reopen. Some of the country’s success has been attributed to Ardern’s leadership, trust in science, and clear communication during the crisis. Instead of launching a war, she urged people to unite against COVID-19, and often calls the country, quote, “our team of 5 million.” In March, after putting her 21-month-old daughter to bed, Ardern hosted a Facebook Live session from her couch as New Zealanders submitted questions.
PRIME MINISTER JACINDA ARDERN: Excuse the casual attire. It can be messy business putting toddlers to bed, so I’m not in my work clothes. …
But some of the key things that I’ve been asked about are things like, you know, “Can we go for a walk?” Penny, you’ve asked — you’ve got four children. Can you walk with all of them, or should you just take two at a time? You can walk with the people that you will be with for the next month, the people that you’re living with. You can walk with them. They’re your — the people that will be in your life consistently over this period of time, and you can walk with them. But if, when you’re walking, you pass by someone, keep your — keep your distance. Keep two meters between everyone. I imagine New Zealanders are going to be doing a lot of long-distance waving while we’re out and about.
AMY GOODMAN: That was Jacinda Ardern in March. On Sunday, the prime minister thanked her nation for staying home during the COVID-19 pandemic to break the chain of transmission and save lives.
PRIME MINISTER JACINDA ARDERN: Thank you for staying home and saving lives. Together, we have kept the virus under control and played our part to avoid the widespread devastation we’ve seen overseas. But I know it’s at times been really tough. So thank you for all the sacrifices you’ve made over the past few months. From the children who missed out on precious time with their grandparents to the families who have had to say goodbye to loved ones from afar, New Zealanders have given up a lot to keep each other safe.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, for more, we go to Wellington, New Zealand, where we’re joined by Dr. Michael Baker, professor of public health at the University of Otago. He’s an epidemiologist, a member of the New Zealand Ministry of Health’s Technical Advisory Group. He’s been advising Prime Minister Ardern on the response to COVID-19.
We welcome you to Democracy Now! Thank you for staying up so late. I’m holding The New York Times. Front page of this weekend, “U.S. Deaths Near 100,000, an Incalculable Loss.” The whole front page lists hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of names. We have something — under 5% of the population, but more than a quarter of the deaths in the world. Can you talk about what New Zealand can teach not only the United States, Brazil and other far more populous countries, but what you recognized early on and what you did, Dr. Baker?
MICHAEL BAKER: Well, greetings from Wellington. It’s a great pleasure to be on your program.
I think there are several lessons when you look across the globe at how different countries have responded, but I think one of the main messages is to respond decisively and have that combination of good science and good leadership. And countries that have succeeded have done this.
And in the case of New Zealand, we had the same pandemic plan as many other countries, which was a good plan, but it was for a different virus. It was for influenza. And by late February, we realized this was more like a SARS virus, so we had to change our direction very rapidly.
And I think across the Western world, there was this strange idea of complacent exceptionalism, that somehow the virus might behave differently when it hit the Western world compared with how it was in Asia. But, in fact, we looked to Asia for examples of a good approach, and — for example, the way China contained the virus, and other Asian countries were managing it — we realized that elimination was possible, so we changed direction very quickly.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Dr. Baker, this whole issue of, in most of the advanced West, the focus has been on flattening the curve or mitigating the virus. Could you talk about that discussion that went on in those early days about trying to eliminate it completely?
MICHAEL BAKER: Yeah. Well, that’s exactly right. I mean, the approach for dealing with influenza pandemics is a mitigation one. You cannot contain it. So, basically, the wave is going to wash over you, and the strategy is all about, as you say, flattening the curve, reducing demand on the healthcare system and not overwhelming it, trying to protect the most vulnerable. So, we are very familiar with those approaches.
But when we looked at the success of mainland China, and also Taiwan, in particular, with actually preventing the virus, stopping it at the borders, and also doing contact tracing to stamp out cases, we changed tack very quickly. And so, you do things in a different order, if you realize that. You actually throw everything at the pandemic early on. So, at the point that we had a hundred cases, no fatalities, around the 23rd of March, a decision was made to go for this elimination approach.
And that meant putting the whole country into a very intense lockdown for the best part of six weeks. And that did three things. It basically stamped out chains of transmission, because the whole country was effectively in home quarantine. It also enabled us to build up a lot of capabilities that we really didn’t have at that point. And that was to do a lot of testing, a lot of contact tracing, and also improve our board of quarantine. And the third thing it did, it basically just explained to the whole country what physical distancing was all about, because we had never experienced a pandemic before. We were barely affected by SARS. And so, at the end of that — it’s a pretty harsh approach, but at the end of that, there was very little virus being transmitted in New Zealand.
So, we’re now coming out of lockdown by degrees. And it’s very different from coming out of lockdown overseas, because we’re trying to come down into a virus-free New Zealand. And the evidence now, based on a huge amount of testing that we’re doing, is that there is not circulating virus in New Zealand. We’re just getting the very tail end of some of the outbreaks.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And could you talk about some of the particularities of New Zealand, number one, of being an island nation, to what degree that helped in your being able to stamp out the virus? And also, the role of your healthcare system, to what degree that made it easier or more difficult to deal with the pandemic?
MICHAEL BAKER: Yeah. Well, being an island, it’s much easier to manage your borders. And really, that’s the number one thing you have to do. But, actually, some countries with huge borders, like mainland China — in fact, Vietnam, Mongolia — appear to be succeeding very well with the same elimination approach. So, it doesn’t — you don’t have to be an island. And, of course, many Pacific islands have taken an even more extreme approach. They’ve just, if you like, lifted the drawbridge entirely and have excluded the virus. So, it’s not a necessity to be an island.
The second point about the healthcare system, I think it helps to have a socialized health system, because, obviously, you can deliver testing more easily. You can manage your hospitals more effectively. And so I think that’s helped in Australia, New Zealand and, I guess, also in some Asian countries that have a highly centralized healthcare system.
AMY GOODMAN: And can you talk about what you see the U.S. has done wrong? I mean, it’s just astounding the richest country in the world is the epicenter of this pandemic. And if you can also talk about the racial disparities that we’ve seen, particularly African Americans, far greater death toll than their population in the United States should be, very disproportionate? What happened in New Zealand with the Maori, with the Indigenous population, with low-income New Zealanders? Most importantly, what do you think the U.S. is doing wrong?
MICHAEL BAKER: Yeah, well, firstly, looking at the inequalities, unfortunately, that seems to be a feature of pandemics and infectious disease in general, is they magnify social inequalities. And with our current government, inequalities is one of the central driving concerns with the healthcare system and with the pandemic response. So equity has been a major driver. It was also one of the reasons we have put, obviously, a huge amount of resources into the elimination approach, because the most pro-equity thing we can do is to keep the virus out. And that is the situation now.
When I look at the United States, obviously, I’m very disappointed — or more than disappointed, because it is a tragic situation. And usually for leadership we look to the U.S., particularly the Centers for Disease Control, we look to the U.K., Public Health England, and with this — and also the World Health Organization — and, unfortunately, I think there was a severe error of judgment in assisting this pandemic, because there was a period when it was containable, but the advice was not to shut borders, and there was a complacent attitude. So, I think that’s the number one problem, is that our major health agencies in the Western world have really let us down — and, I think, governments, as well — because this was an entirely preventable global catastrophe. So I think that’s the number one requirement, is that science and leadership have to work together and recognize these threats and manage them accordingly.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And also, could you talk about the issue of the legitimacy of leadership in terms of being able to effectuate these kinds of severe or stringent policies? Obviously, in China, they had to call out the military to completely isolate Wuhan, but in New Zealand you didn’t really have to deal with any kind of a major enforcement, per se. Could you talk about that in the few seconds we have left?
MICHAEL BAKER: Yeah, I think really empathetic leadership, as we’ve seen in New Zealand, helps. But, actually, Australia has got a different style of government, and they’ve also succeeded. But really, the best-performing country on Earth has actually been Taiwan, I think, because they acted very early. They didn’t need a lockdown. And that was because they had a very strong public health agency, and they started managing their borders in January. And they did everything right. So, I think they’ve had a model response.
AMY GOODMAN: Michael Baker, we’re going to have to leave it there, but we’re going to continue with a post-show and post it online at democracynow.org, from New Zealand. I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan González. Be safe.