democracynow--2020-03-19--Joseph Stiglitz: Trump's "Trickle-Down" Economic Plans Are Not Enough to Meet Coronavirus Challenge

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
, democracynow.org , The War and Peace Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman .
President Trump Wednesday signed a coronavirus relief package providing unemployment benefits and free coronavirus testing to millions of Americans suddenly out of a job .
The aid package guarantees paid leave to less than 20 % of American workers .
It does not apply to companies with 500 or more workers , and workplaces with fewer than 50 workers can request to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ White House also ordered the suspension of evictions and foreclosures through April .
On Wall Street , the Dow Jones plummeted 7 % at midday , triggering an automatic halt to trading for the fourth time in the last two weeks .
The market crash has wiped out nearly all stock market gains since President Trump took office in 2017 .
Earlier this month , Trump signed into law an $ 8 billion coronavirus response package .
At a White House press conference Wednesday , Trump laid out the first details of a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and invoked the Korean War-era Defense Production Act to allow the government to direct industrial production .
AMY GOODMAN : The person in charge of the bailouts [ is ] Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin , formerly of Goldman Sachs .
He ran OneWest Bank after the 2008 financial crisis and oversaw so many foreclosures , he was called the “ foreclosure king.
” Well , for more on these bailouts and who benefits , for more on the legislation that has been passing and for what ’ s happening in the world today @ @ @ @ @ @ @ joined by Joseph Stiglitz , Nobel Prize-winning economist , Columbia University professor , chief economist for the Roosevelt Institute , served as chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers under President Bill Clinton and as chief economist of the World Bank .
His latest book , just coming out , hopefully , depending on what this world looks like , is People , Power and Profits : Progressive Capitalism for an Age of Discontent .
We thank you so much for joining us , Joe .
And I just want to let our @ @ @ @ @ @ @ joining us from your home , because here in New York and all over the country we ’ re being told that it is safest for people to isolate .
Before you talk about the bailout , just talk about your thoughts right now on what ’ s happening in this city , New York , and the world .
JOSEPH STIGLITZ : Well , this is a time of crisis .
In the 2008 crisis , Rahm Emanuel , who was the chief of staff of Obama , said , “ You @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to waste.
” But they did let that crisis go to waste .
We needed to reform our financial system .
We needed to reform our economy .
And we didn ’ t .
The money went to the big banks , and we didn ’ t get the money to the people who really needed it .
So , the question is , as your very — as your excellent clip from Naomi Klein said , “ What will we do with this crisis ?
Will this reinforce the ugly tendencies we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for corporate welfare , or will it actually succeed in reforming our economy ?
” You know , it ’ s remarkable .
Just a little while ago , people said we couldn ’ t afford this program helping college students with immense debt , or we couldn ’ t afford providing healthcare for everyone .
And all of a sudden , the president is talking about a $ 1 trillion , $ 2 trillion bailout .
We always could have afforded these things .
It was just our prioritization was wrong .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ to the Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin describing the administration ’ s proposed economic relief package .
AMY GOODMAN : So that ’ s Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin , formerly called the “ foreclosure king.
” Talk about what he is laying out right now .
JOSEPH STIGLITZ : Well , the one part that is good is sending checks to everyone .
I think the amounts that they ’ re talking about are inadequate , and it ’ s not just a one-time thing .
If , as many epidemiologists say , this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , there will have to be a second and third and fourth conscious of those checks .
If we don ’ t do that , people whose income is collapsed , people who are left unemployed — remember , we have the worst unemployment system of any of the advanced countries — all these people who are not going to be able to pay their bills , and we ’ ll have a cascade of problems .
And while it ’ s a good thing that the Trump administration has ordered federal agencies @ @ @ @ @ @ @ doesn ’ t apply to the private sector banks .
And their evictions and foreclosures may well go on .
And that ’ s where most of the evictions and foreclosures will occur .
So we need to get that money into the system , and we need to get the money to ordinary individuals .
So that part , I think , is good .
It needs to be taxed at the rate that individuals normally pay , so that in a year from now , two years , when we return @ @ @ @ @ @ @ who ’ ve gotten money and didn ’ t need it , that money will go back to the Treasury .
So , this ought to be treated as ordinary income .
And a significant part of that money that was going to the top should be recuperated .
But the other part is really not the way we ought to be going .
The part of giving money to the airlines or the cruise ships .
Yeah , the airlines had a huge bonanza from the tax bill of 2017 .
And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ up buffers in times of emergency , they had billions and billions of share buybacks .
So , if we give them money , we have to make sure that they satisfy certain conditions , conditions corresponding to the environment , to governance , to labor .
And we need warrants .
That ’ s a way of making sure that the American taxpayer is protected against the risk .
And then there are whole set of things that the bailout — that the package doesn ’ t address .
Our state and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ very difficult time .
Their revenues are plummeting .
They don ’ t have the luxury of running deficits .
Most of them have what are called balanced budget frameworks .
So , if their revenues go down , there ’ s going to be a cutback in education , in health , in the basic ingredients of making — that ordinary people need so much .
So , a higher priority than bailing out the cruise ship companies is helping the states and localities .
So we need a massive revenue-sharing program @ @ @ @ @ @ @ GOODMAN : So , you know , one of the voices that we don ’ t hear , or the voices overall that we don ’ t hear at the White House , as we see this stream of CEOs surrounding Trump or the conversations he ’ s having in the last few weeks , are the people , the workers directly affected .
I wanted to bring in Sara Nelson , a clip of the president of the Association of Flight Attendants union .
AMY GOODMAN : So , that ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ attendants ’ union .
Joe Stiglitz , if you can talk about what is actually happening here , and what would a bottom-up bailout actually look like ?
What would it mean if the workers were guaranteed everything from the paid leave — it keeps on being repeated , “ Now workers will have paid medical leave , ” but we hear that it ’ s well less than 20 % , and that was reduced and reduced over the weekend through negotiations with Mnuchin .
JOSEPH STIGLITZ : So , first let @ @ @ @ @ @ @ another instance of trickle-down economics — give money to the corporations , and maybe , maybe , it will trickle down to ordinary citizens .
And we know from the past it ’ s not going to happen .
The 2017 tax bill did not lead to more investment , did not lead to significantly higher wages .
It led to bigger — almost a trillion dollars of share buybacks .
And so , as you say , what we need is a bottoms-up approach .
And what she was pointing out is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ industries , they aren ’ t going to necessarily behave well .
And you see that so clearly in the fight that the big companies fought against paid sick leave .
And let me say why that ’ s really important .
It ’ s not just helping the workers ; it ’ s helping all of us , because if they don ’ t get sick leave , they ’ re going to go to work .
And if they go to work , it will help transmit the disease .
So @ @ @ @ @ @ @ can say , “ If I ’ m sick , I don ’ t need to go to work.
” And the decision of the Trump administration to fight having universal sick leave is another example of their contributing to the spread of the virus and making the pandemic all the worse .
AMY GOODMAN : Joe Stiglitz , can you talk about what this looks like globally ?
And what is happening with this pandemic , laying bare the growing wealth inequality in the world ?
JOSEPH STIGLITZ : Well , what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 50 years is a highly globally integrated economy .
There are some other aspects of this economy that we ’ ve created .
We created economy without resilience .
I illustrate that by the cars today that don ’ t have spare tires .
You save a little money in not having a spare tire .
The fact is that when you get the flat tire , you realize what a mistake that was .
Not having a spare tire makes — in short run , it looks like you ’ ve saved @ @ @ @ @ @ @ run , you really suffer .
And we ’ ve created a whole economic system that is extraordinarily fragile — just-in-time production with no inventories .
And as we ’ ve created this system , where you try to squeeze every ounce out of the — of waste out of the system , you ’ ve also squeezed ordinary workers .
And that is what ’ s contributed to this growing inequality .
And those two are the same — you know , different sides of the same coin .
So , our @ @ @ @ @ @ @ issues that — hopefully , the lessons that we learn from this crisis is we need to construct a different kind of capitalism , a different kind of economy , that I call in my book “ progressive capitalism , ” but it recognizes that the market doesn ’ t work very well in addressing the major problems our society faces — resilience , inequality , climate change , you name it .
They haven ’ t done a good job on it .
AMY GOODMAN : I wanted to go back to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have Whole Foods CEO John Mackey under fire after he sent out an email to employees saying workers could donate accumulated paid time off to fellow workers with medical emergencies or a death in the family during the pandemic .
Your thoughts , Joe Stiglitz ?
JOSEPH STIGLITZ : Well , this is an example of encouraging charity from others .
Why don ’ t these people at the very top say , “ Well , at this moment of crisis , we ’ re all in it together .
I ’ m @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
I ’ m going to go make a major sacrifice , and I ’ m going to give everybody paid sick leave , paid family leave .
I ’ m going to show that from the top down .
And , of course , I hope that you will be equally generous ” ?
But it should start from the top .
And that ’ s what ’ s so bad about both the administration and the example that you just gave .
Leadership should start from the top by example .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ getting that in this country .
AMY GOODMAN : Can you talk about how it works when they say people will get unemployment — the reports of people trying to apply online , the server is crashing repeatedly because so many people are out of work — and how thousand-dollar checks will be sent out , how you ensure if there is a law that says your employer has to give you paid medical leave , how you enforce this ?
JOSEPH STIGLITZ : Well , I mean , you ’ ve put @ @ @ @ @ @ @ has not gotten sufficient attention .
Because of the devastation of our administration , of our government , that has occurred in recent years — you know , they disbanded the White House pandemic task force ; they defunded the Centers for Disease Control , which is the basis of getting us information and developing our response to a crisis like this — we are less able to respond .
And that means it ’ s almost a fantasy to believe that we can get checks out in two weeks .
That ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I talked about are so important .
We have to make it absolutely clear that nobody is going to be evicted , there ’ s going to be no foreclosure , not only on the part of the government , but on the part of the banks , landlords .
People can ’ t have their utilities cut off , because those checks won ’ t be there , and there ’ s a lot of Americans living on the edge .
Data I talk about it in my book about the fraction @ @ @ @ @ @ @ fraction of the population , that has reserves of less than $ 500 or $ 1,000 .
They ’ re living from paycheck to paycheck .
And right now there are no paychecks .
So , this inability to respond is going to be a major problem .
And then the other point that you made has gotten a lot of attention more recently , that even companies that have said that they have sick leave policy , when employees ask for the sick leave , they get punished .
And so , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that say , “ We will hold the companies that don ’ t grant their workers these benefits — we ’ re going to hold him accountable.
” Of course , with the president saying , “ I ’ m not responsible , ” you might ask , “ What does that mean ?
” But what that means is that there needs to be significant fines on any company that deprives any worker of his basic rights , including the right to sick leave .
AMY GOODMAN : So , this whole @ @ @ @ @ @ @ capitalism , of , in this moment of upheaval , that it depends who moves forward fastest and most strategically in moving forward with their ideas , your thoughts , as we move forward in this election year — unclear even if this election would be held in November — Trump amassing the kind of powers that he is ?
And , even still , I ’ m wondering if you could comment on his position right now — on the one hand , supporting giving $ 1,000 to each American — and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that means , who gets it and who doesn ’ t — and you combine that with his ultranationalist politics — kids in cages , the wall , the racist “ Chinese virus ” language that he uses .
Can you comment on this kind of economic populism ?
JOSEPH STIGLITZ : Well , I think the point that this crisis makes clear is that we ’ re all in it together .
The virus doesn ’ t discriminate .
Just like the virus doesn ’ t have a nationality , the virus @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of nationality , of race , of religion .
And so we ’ re all in this together .
So this is a moment — it should be a moment of national unity .
And as Naomi pointed out , there are two directions we can go .
We could either exacerbate the divisions , or we can say there ’ s another direction .
One of the reasons I wrote my book , People , Power and Profits , on progressive capitalism , was to lay out that alternative agenda , to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are a lot of ideas about how to transform our society into the kind of society that deals with the problems that we ’ re facing — the problem of inequality , climate change , the moral turpitude that we ’ ve seen , so pervasive in the financial sector , Dieselgate , in the drug companies , in the food companies .
There is an alternative .
And so I actually think we have the ideas with which to respond .
And they ’ ve been articulated in the primary contest , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , my hope is that as Americans realize how badly things have gone , how the kind — that this crisis , we didn ’ t turn to the private sector to solve it .
We turned to the government .
We realize that we have to do this collectively , that if we ’ re all on our own , it won ’ t work .
The private sector did not provide the masks , did not provide the tests on its own .
And a failed government — and the Trump @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ t work .
But there is a different kind of government that can work , and we ’ ve seen that in a number of countries , where things are going much better .
So , we can see that if we pull together , there is an alternative , and one which will protect us against this disease , but also — also — can create a society with greater shared prosperity and address the climate crisis .
AMY GOODMAN : Well , Joe Stiglitz , I ’ m going to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ so that we can have an extended conversation .
I want to ask you about how your progressive capitalism compares to Bernie Sanders ’ democratic socialism and more .
But right now we have to break .
Joe Stiglitz , Nobel Prize-winning economist , Columbia University professor , chief economist for the Roosevelt Institute .
He served as chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers under President Bill Clinton and chief economist of the World Bank .
His latest book , People , Power and Profits : Progressive Capitalism for an Age of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Trump doubles down on his use of the racist term “ Chinese virus.
” Stay with us .
AMY GOODMAN : “ Dear Dr. Bonnie , ” an ode to Canada ’ s provincial health officer , Dr. Bonnie Henry , in British Columbia , who has been giving daily updates on the spread of COVID-19 .
The song is sung by two members of her new fan club .
You may recognize the music .
It ’ s from the song “ Dear Theodosia ” in the Broadway show Hamilton .
All @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
And the prime minister of Canada is in self-isolation because his wife has tested positive for COVID-19 .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman. President Trump Wednesday signed a coronavirus relief package providing unemployment benefits and free coronavirus testing to millions of Americans suddenly out of a job. The aid package guarantees paid leave to less than 20% of American workers. It does not apply to companies with 500 or more workers, and workplaces with fewer than 50 workers can request to opt out. On Wednesday, the White House also ordered the suspension of evictions and foreclosures through April. On Wall Street, the Dow Jones plummeted 7% at midday, triggering an automatic halt to trading for the fourth time in the last two weeks. The market crash has wiped out nearly all stock market gains since President Trump took office in 2017. Earlier this month, Trump signed into law an $8 billion coronavirus response package. At a White House press conference Wednesday, Trump laid out the first details of a third, $1 trillion economic package and invoked the Korean War-era Defense Production Act to allow the government to direct industrial production.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: In a sense, a wartime president. I mean, that’s what we’re fighting. … You have to close parts of an economy that six weeks ago were the best they’ve ever been. We had the best economy we’ve ever had. And then one day you have to close it down in order to defeat this enemy. … We’ll be invoking the Defense Production Act just in case we need it. In other words, I think you all know what it is, and it can do a lot of good things if we need it, and we will — we will have it all completed.
AMY GOODMAN: The person in charge of the bailouts [is] Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin, formerly of Goldman Sachs. He ran OneWest Bank after the 2008 financial crisis and oversaw so many foreclosures, he was called the “foreclosure king.”
Well, for more on these bailouts and who benefits, for more on the legislation that has been passing and for what’s happening in the world today in this pandemic, we’re joined by Joseph Stiglitz, Nobel Prize-winning economist, Columbia University professor, chief economist for the Roosevelt Institute, served as chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers under President Bill Clinton and as chief economist of the World Bank. His latest book, just coming out, hopefully, depending on what this world looks like, is People, Power and Profits: Progressive Capitalism for an Age of Discontent.
We thank you so much for joining us, Joe. And I just want to let our viewers and listeners know you’re joining us from your home, because here in New York and all over the country we’re being told that it is safest for people to isolate. Before you talk about the bailout, just talk about your thoughts right now on what’s happening in this city, New York, and the world.
JOSEPH STIGLITZ: Well, this is a time of crisis. In the 2008 crisis, Rahm Emanuel, who was the chief of staff of Obama, said, “You shouldn’t let a crisis go to waste.” But they did let that crisis go to waste. We needed to reform our financial system. We needed to reform our economy. And we didn’t. The money went to the big banks, and we didn’t get the money to the people who really needed it. So, the question is, as your very — as your excellent clip from Naomi Klein said, “What will we do with this crisis? Will this reinforce the ugly tendencies we’ve had for growing inequality, for corporate welfare, or will it actually succeed in reforming our economy?” You know, it’s remarkable. Just a little while ago, people said we couldn’t afford this program helping college students with immense debt, or we couldn’t afford providing healthcare for everyone. And all of a sudden, the president is talking about a $1 trillion, $2 trillion bailout. We always could have afforded these things. It was just our prioritization was wrong.
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to go to the Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin describing the administration’s proposed economic relief package.
TREASURY SECRETARY STEVEN MNUCHIN: We’ve put a proposal on the table that would inject a trillion dollars into the economy. That is on top of the $300 billion from the IRS deferrals. Now, let me just say, this is a combination of loans. This is a combination of direct checks to individuals. This is a combination of creating liquidity for small businesses. … I think Congress right now should be concerned about the American workers and small business. You know, interest rates are incredibly low, so there’s very little cost of borrowing this money. And as I’ve said, in different times, we’ll fix the deficit. This is not the time to worry about it.
AMY GOODMAN: So that’s Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin, formerly called the “foreclosure king.” Talk about what he is laying out right now.
JOSEPH STIGLITZ: Well, the one part that is good is sending checks to everyone. I think the amounts that they’re talking about are inadequate, and it’s not just a one-time thing. If, as many epidemiologists say, this is going to last for several months, there will have to be a second and third and fourth conscious of those checks. If we don’t do that, people whose income is collapsed, people who are left unemployed — remember, we have the worst unemployment system of any of the advanced countries — all these people who are not going to be able to pay their bills, and we’ll have a cascade of problems. And while it’s a good thing that the Trump administration has ordered federal agencies to stop evictions and foreclosures, it doesn’t apply to the private sector banks. And their evictions and foreclosures may well go on. And that’s where most of the evictions and foreclosures will occur. So we need to get that money into the system, and we need to get the money to ordinary individuals. So that part, I think, is good. It needs to be taxed at the rate that individuals normally pay, so that in a year from now, two years, when we return to normal, those at the top who’ve gotten money and didn’t need it, that money will go back to the Treasury. So, this ought to be treated as ordinary income. And a significant part of that money that was going to the top should be recuperated.
But the other part is really not the way we ought to be going. The part of giving money to the airlines or the cruise ships. Yeah, the airlines had a huge bonanza from the tax bill of 2017. And rather than use that money to build up buffers in times of emergency, they had billions and billions of share buybacks. So, if we give them money, we have to make sure that they satisfy certain conditions, conditions corresponding to the environment, to governance, to labor. And we need warrants. That’s a way of making sure that the American taxpayer is protected against the risk.
And then there are whole set of things that the bailout — that the package doesn’t address. Our state and localities are going to be facing a very difficult time. Their revenues are plummeting. They don’t have the luxury of running deficits. Most of them have what are called balanced budget frameworks. So, if their revenues go down, there’s going to be a cutback in education, in health, in the basic ingredients of making — that ordinary people need so much. So, a higher priority than bailing out the cruise ship companies is helping the states and localities. So we need a massive revenue-sharing program between the states and localities.
AMY GOODMAN: So, you know, one of the voices that we don’t hear, or the voices overall that we don’t hear at the White House, as we see this stream of CEOs surrounding Trump or the conversations he’s having in the last few weeks, are the people, the workers directly affected. I wanted to bring in Sara Nelson, a clip of the president of the Association of Flight Attendants union.
SARA NELSON: We have told Congress that any stimulus funds for the aviation industry must come with strict rules. That includes requiring employers across aviation to maintain pay and benefits for every worker; no taxpayer money for CEO bonuses, stock buybacks or dividends; no breaking contracts through bankruptcy; and no federal funds for airlines that are fighting their workers’ efforts to join a union.
AMY GOODMAN: So, that’s Sara Nelson, head of the flight attendants’ union. Joe Stiglitz, if you can talk about what is actually happening here, and what would a bottom-up bailout actually look like? What would it mean if the workers were guaranteed everything from the paid leave — it keeps on being repeated, “Now workers will have paid medical leave,” but we hear that it’s well less than 20%, and that was reduced and reduced over the weekend through negotiations with Mnuchin.
JOSEPH STIGLITZ: So, first let me say, the Trump proposal is another instance of trickle-down economics — give money to the corporations, and maybe, maybe, it will trickle down to ordinary citizens. And we know from the past it’s not going to happen. The 2017 tax bill did not lead to more investment, did not lead to significantly higher wages. It led to bigger — almost a trillion dollars of share buybacks.
And so, as you say, what we need is a bottoms-up approach. And what she was pointing out is that if you give money to these industries, they aren’t going to necessarily behave well. And you see that so clearly in the fight that the big companies fought against paid sick leave. And let me say why that’s really important. It’s not just helping the workers; it’s helping all of us, because if they don’t get sick leave, they’re going to go to work. And if they go to work, it will help transmit the disease. So, we need a system that people can say, “If I’m sick, I don’t need to go to work.” And the decision of the Trump administration to fight having universal sick leave is another example of their contributing to the spread of the virus and making the pandemic all the worse.
AMY GOODMAN: Joe Stiglitz, can you talk about what this looks like globally? And what is happening with this pandemic, laying bare the growing wealth inequality in the world?
JOSEPH STIGLITZ: Well, what we’ve created over the last 50 years is a highly globally integrated economy. There are some other aspects of this economy that we’ve created. We created economy without resilience. I illustrate that by the cars today that don’t have spare tires. You save a little money in not having a spare tire. The fact is that when you get the flat tire, you realize what a mistake that was. Not having a spare tire makes — in short run, it looks like you’ve saved a little money; in the long run, you really suffer. And we’ve created a whole economic system that is extraordinarily fragile — just-in-time production with no inventories. And as we’ve created this system, where you try to squeeze every ounce out of the — of waste out of the system, you’ve also squeezed ordinary workers. And that is what’s contributed to this growing inequality. And those two are the same — you know, different sides of the same coin.
So, our growing inequality and our increased fragility are issues that — hopefully, the lessons that we learn from this crisis is we need to construct a different kind of capitalism, a different kind of economy, that I call in my book “progressive capitalism,” but it recognizes that the market doesn’t work very well in addressing the major problems our society faces — resilience, inequality, climate change, you name it. They haven’t done a good job on it.
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to go back to what’s happening here. You have Whole Foods CEO John Mackey under fire after he sent out an email to employees saying workers could donate accumulated paid time off to fellow workers with medical emergencies or a death in the family during the pandemic. Your thoughts, Joe Stiglitz?
JOSEPH STIGLITZ: Well, this is an example of encouraging charity from others. Why don’t these people at the very top say, “Well, at this moment of crisis, we’re all in it together. I’m going to cut off my multimillion-dollar pay. I’m going to go make a major sacrifice, and I’m going to give everybody paid sick leave, paid family leave. I’m going to show that from the top down. And, of course, I hope that you will be equally generous”? But it should start from the top. And that’s what’s so bad about both the administration and the example that you just gave. Leadership should start from the top by example. And obviously, we’re not getting that in this country.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about how it works when they say people will get unemployment — the reports of people trying to apply online, the server is crashing repeatedly because so many people are out of work — and how thousand-dollar checks will be sent out, how you ensure if there is a law that says your employer has to give you paid medical leave, how you enforce this?
JOSEPH STIGLITZ: Well, I mean, you’ve put your finger on a major problem that has not gotten sufficient attention. Because of the devastation of our administration, of our government, that has occurred in recent years — you know, they disbanded the White House pandemic task force; they defunded the Centers for Disease Control, which is the basis of getting us information and developing our response to a crisis like this — we are less able to respond. And that means it’s almost a fantasy to believe that we can get checks out in two weeks.
That’s why some of the other things I talked about are so important. We have to make it absolutely clear that nobody is going to be evicted, there’s going to be no foreclosure, not only on the part of the government, but on the part of the banks, landlords. People can’t have their utilities cut off, because those checks won’t be there, and there’s a lot of Americans living on the edge. Data I talk about it in my book about the fraction of the population, a very large fraction of the population, that has reserves of less than $500 or $1,000. They’re living from paycheck to paycheck. And right now there are no paychecks. So, this inability to respond is going to be a major problem.
And then the other point that you made has gotten a lot of attention more recently, that even companies that have said that they have sick leave policy, when employees ask for the sick leave, they get punished. And so, we have to set up administrative mechanisms that say, “We will hold the companies that don’t grant their workers these benefits — we’re going to hold him accountable.” Of course, with the president saying, “I’m not responsible,” you might ask, “What does that mean?” But what that means is that there needs to be significant fines on any company that deprives any worker of his basic rights, including the right to sick leave.
AMY GOODMAN: So, this whole issue that Naomi Klein raises of disaster capitalism, of, in this moment of upheaval, that it depends who moves forward fastest and most strategically in moving forward with their ideas, your thoughts, as we move forward in this election year — unclear even if this election would be held in November — Trump amassing the kind of powers that he is? And, even still, I’m wondering if you could comment on his position right now — on the one hand, supporting giving $1,000 to each American — and I’m not exactly sure what that means, who gets it and who doesn’t — and you combine that with his ultranationalist politics — kids in cages, the wall, the racist “Chinese virus” language that he uses. Can you comment on this kind of economic populism?
JOSEPH STIGLITZ: Well, I think the point that this crisis makes clear is that we’re all in it together. The virus doesn’t discriminate. Just like the virus doesn’t have a nationality, the virus doesn’t discriminate on the basis of nationality, of race, of religion. And so we’re all in this together. So this is a moment — it should be a moment of national unity.
And as Naomi pointed out, there are two directions we can go. We could either exacerbate the divisions, or we can say there’s another direction. One of the reasons I wrote my book, People, Power and Profits, on progressive capitalism, was to lay out that alternative agenda, to make it clear that we — there are a lot of ideas about how to transform our society into the kind of society that deals with the problems that we’re facing — the problem of inequality, climate change, the moral turpitude that we’ve seen, so pervasive in the financial sector, Dieselgate, in the drug companies, in the food companies. There is an alternative. And so I actually think we have the ideas with which to respond. And they’ve been articulated in the primary contest, many of these critical ideas.
So, my hope is that as Americans realize how badly things have gone, how the kind — that this crisis, we didn’t turn to the private sector to solve it. We turned to the government. We realize that we have to do this collectively, that if we’re all on our own, it won’t work. The private sector did not provide the masks, did not provide the tests on its own. And a failed government — and the Trump administration is a failed government — didn’t work. But there is a different kind of government that can work, and we’ve seen that in a number of countries, where things are going much better. So, we can see that if we pull together, there is an alternative, and one which will protect us against this disease, but also — also — can create a society with greater shared prosperity and address the climate crisis.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, Joe Stiglitz, I’m going to ask you to stay after the hour so that we can have an extended conversation. I want to ask you about how your progressive capitalism compares to Bernie Sanders’ democratic socialism and more. But right now we have to break. Joe Stiglitz, Nobel Prize-winning economist, Columbia University professor, chief economist for the Roosevelt Institute. He served as chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers under President Bill Clinton and chief economist of the World Bank. His latest book, People, Power and Profits: Progressive Capitalism for an Age of Discontent.
When we come back, Trump doubles down on his use of the racist term “Chinese virus.” Stay with us.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: “Dear Dr. Bonnie,” an ode to Canada’s provincial health officer, Dr. Bonnie Henry, in British Columbia, who has been giving daily updates on the spread of COVID-19. The song is sung by two members of her new fan club. You may recognize the music. It’s from the song “Dear Theodosia” in the Broadway show Hamilton. All of Broadway is shut down right now. And the prime minister of Canada is in self-isolation because his wife has tested positive for COVID-19.


democracynow--2020-03-19--"Coronavirus Capitalism": Naomi Klein's Case for Transformative Change Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : Today we spend much of the hour looking at the economic impact of the coronavirus pandemic , what some are calling coronavirus capitalism .
Soon we ’ ll be joined by Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz , whose new book is People , Power and Profits : Progressive Capitalism for an Age of Discontent .
But first we begin with a new video by author and activist Naomi Klein , produced by The Intercept .
In 2007 , Klein wrote The Shock @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Now she argues Trump ’ s plan is a pandemic shock doctrine , but it ’ s not the only way forward .
The video opens with this quote from economist Milton Friedman , who says , “ Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change .
When that crisis occurs , the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around.
” NAOMI KLEIN : “ Ideas that are lying around.
” Friedman , one of history ’ s most extreme free market economists , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ but he was right about that .
In times of crisis , seemingly impossible ideas suddenly become possible .
But whose ideas ?
Sensible , fair ones , designed to keep as many people as possible safe , secure and healthy ?
Or predatory ideas , designed to further enrich the already unimaginably wealthy while leaving the most vulnerable further exposed ?
The world economy is seizing up in the face of cascading shocks .
NAOMI KLEIN : The Fed ’ s first move was to pump $ 1.5 trillion into the financial @ @ @ @ @ @ @ way .
But if you ’ re a worker , especially a gig worker , there ’ s a very good chance you ’ re out of luck .
If you do need to see a doctor for care , there ’ s a good chance no one ’ s going to help you pay if you aren ’ t covered .
And if you want to heed the public health warnings to stay home from work , there ’ s also a chance that you won ’ t get paid .
Of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ your rent and all of your debts — medical , student , credit card , mortgage .
The results are predictable .
Too many sick people have no choice but to go to work , which means more people contracting and spreading the virus .
And without comprehensive bailouts for workers , we can expect more bankruptcies and more homelessness down the road .
Look , we know this script .
In 2008 , the last time we had a global financial meltdown , the same kinds of bad ideas for no-strings-attached corporate @ @ @ @ @ @ @ people around the world paid the price .
And even that was entirely predictable .
Thirteen years ago , I wrote a book called The Shock Doctrine : The Rise of Disaster Capitalism , described a brutal and recurring tactic by right-wing governments .
After a shocking event — a war , coup , terrorist attack , market crash or natural disaster — they exploit the public ’ s disorientation , suspend democracy , push through radical free market policies that enrich the 1 % at the expense of the poor and middle @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we know what Trump ’ s plan is : a pandemic shock doctrine , featuring all the most dangerous ideas lying around , from privatizing Social Security to locking down borders to caging even more migrants .
Hell , he might even try canceling elections .
But the end of this story hasn ’ t been written yet .
It is an election year .
And social movements and insurgent politicians are already mobilized .
And like in the 1930s , we have a whole bunch of other ideas lying around .
ELIZABETH @ @ @ @ @ @ @ something that helps explain the difference between the testing situation in South Korea and the U.S .
The South Korea , like European countries and Canada , has universal single-payer insurance .
And that means that it ’ s easier to mobilize , and also people know what to do .
There is pretty much one answer for how to get testing .
The U.S. is a patchwork of countless different systems , and so you can ’ t say , “ Here ’ s exactly the steps that every American should take @ @ @ @ @ @ @ KLEIN : It ’ s called the Green New Deal .
Instead of rescuing the dirty industries of the last century , we should be boosting the clean ones that will lead us into safety in the coming century .
If there is one thing history teaches us , it ’ s that moments of shock are profoundly volatile .
We either lose a whole lot of ground , get fleeced by elites and pay the price for decades , or we win progressive victories that seemed impossible just a few weeks earlier @ @ @ @ @ @ @ our nerve .
The future will be determined by whoever is willing to fight harder for the ideas they have lying around .
AMY GOODMAN : That ’ s author and activist Naomi Klein of The Intercept .
The video ends with Milton Friedman ’ s quote : “ Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change .
When that crisis occurs , the actions that are taken depend on ideas that are lying around .
That , I believe , is our basic function : to develop alternatives to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable.
” This is Democracy Now !
, democracynow.org , The War and Peace Report .
When we come back , Nobel Prize-winning economist Joe Stiglitz .
Stay with us .
AMY GOODMAN : That ’ s Spanish pianist Alberto Gestoso , performing the Titanic theme song , “ My Heart Will Go On , ” for his quarantined neighbors in Barcelona .
He was on his balcony .
Spain has had more than 3,400 cases of the coronavirus in the last 24 hours .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ , and that ’ s only what is known without widespread testing .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: Today we spend much of the hour looking at the economic impact of the coronavirus pandemic, what some are calling coronavirus capitalism. Soon we’ll be joined by Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz, whose new book is People, Power and Profits: Progressive Capitalism for an Age of Discontent. But first we begin with a new video by author and activist Naomi Klein, produced by The Intercept. In 2007, Klein wrote The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism. Now she argues Trump’s plan is a pandemic shock doctrine, but it’s not the only way forward. The video opens with this quote from economist Milton Friedman, who says, “Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around.”
NAOMI KLEIN: “Ideas that are lying around.” Friedman, one of history’s most extreme free market economists, was wrong about a whole lot, but he was right about that. In times of crisis, seemingly impossible ideas suddenly become possible. But whose ideas? Sensible, fair ones, designed to keep as many people as possible safe, secure and healthy? Or predatory ideas, designed to further enrich the already unimaginably wealthy while leaving the most vulnerable further exposed? The world economy is seizing up in the face of cascading shocks.
TEDROS ADHANOM GHEBREYESUS: COVID-19 can be characterized as a pandemic.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS: In the wake of the coronavirus crisis, stocks have stopped trading on Wall Street after a 7% drop.
KRISTINA PARTSINEVELOS: This is a historical day, the biggest drop we’ve seen since that crash in 1987.
ELAINE QUIJANO: The drop was spurred by a growing oil price war as the market was already weakened by coronavirus fears.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Yeah, no, I don’t take responsibility at all.
NAOMI KLEIN: In the midst of this widespread panic, corporate lobbyists of all stripes are of course dusting off all the ideas they had lying around. Trump is pushing a suspension of the payroll tax, which could bankrupt Social Security, providing the excuse to cut it or privatize it completely — an idea that has been lying around for very long time.
PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: A worker, at his or her option, ought to be allowed to put some of their own money in a — you know, in a private savings account.
NAOMI KLEIN: Lying around on both sides of the aisle.
SEN. JOE BIDEN: When I argued if we should freeze federal spending, I meant Social Security, as well. I meant Medicare and Medicaid.
NAOMI KLEIN: And then, there are the ideas being floated to bail out some of the wealthiest and most polluting sectors in our economy.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: We are working very closely with the cruise line industry, likewise with the airline industry. They’re two great industries, and we’ll be helping them through this patch.
NAOMI KLEIN: Bailouts for fracking companies, not to mention cruise ships, airlines and hotels, handouts which Trump could benefit from personally. Which is a big problem because the virus isn’t the only crisis we face. There’s also climate disruption, and these industries that are getting rescued with our money are the ones driving it. Trump has also been meeting with the private health insurers.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: We’re meeting with the top executives of the health insurance companies.
NAOMI KLEIN: The very ones who have made sure that so many Americans can’t afford the care they need. And what are the chances they don’t have their hands out? It seems like the whole pandemic is getting outsourced.
BRIAN CORNELL: Well, Mr. President, thank you for inviting us here today, along with our colleagues from Walmart and Walgreens and our partners at CVS. Normally you’d view us as competitors, but today we’re focused on a common competitor. And that’s defeating the spread of the coronavirus.
NAOMI KLEIN: The Fed’s first move was to pump $1.5 trillion into the financial markets, with more undoubtedly on the way. But if you’re a worker, especially a gig worker, there’s a very good chance you’re out of luck. If you do need to see a doctor for care, there’s a good chance no one’s going to help you pay if you aren’t covered. And if you want to heed the public health warnings to stay home from work, there’s also a chance that you won’t get paid. Of course, you still need to pay your rent and all of your debts — medical, student, credit card, mortgage. The results are predictable. Too many sick people have no choice but to go to work, which means more people contracting and spreading the virus. And without comprehensive bailouts for workers, we can expect more bankruptcies and more homelessness down the road.
Look, we know this script. In 2008, the last time we had a global financial meltdown, the same kinds of bad ideas for no-strings-attached corporate bailouts carried the day, and regular people around the world paid the price. And even that was entirely predictable. Thirteen years ago, I wrote a book called The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism, described a brutal and recurring tactic by right-wing governments. After a shocking event — a war, coup, terrorist attack, market crash or natural disaster — they exploit the public’s disorientation, suspend democracy, push through radical free market policies that enrich the 1% at the expense of the poor and middle class.
But here is what my research has taught me. Shocks and crises don’t always go the shock doctrine path. In fact, it’s possible for crisis to catalyze a kind of evolutionary leap. Think of the 1930s, when the Great Depression led to the New Deal.
PRESIDENT FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT: The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.
NAOMI KLEIN: In the United States and elsewhere, governments began to weave a social safety net, so that the next time there was a crash, there would be programs like Social Security to catch people.
PRESIDENT FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT: The right of every family to a decent home, the right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health.
NAOMI KLEIN: Look, we know what Trump’s plan is: a pandemic shock doctrine, featuring all the most dangerous ideas lying around, from privatizing Social Security to locking down borders to caging even more migrants. Hell, he might even try canceling elections. But the end of this story hasn’t been written yet. It is an election year. And social movements and insurgent politicians are already mobilized. And like in the 1930s, we have a whole bunch of other ideas lying around.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS: Do we believe that everybody should be entitled, as a right, to healthcare?
SANDERS SUPPORTERS: Yes!
DOMINIQUE WALKER: We will not stop organizing and fighting until all unhoused folks who want shelter have shelter.
REP. ILHAN OMAR: Canceling student debt.
REP. RO KHANNA: It makes so much sense that if you’re sick, that you should not be penalized where you don’t have an income.
NAOMI KLEIN: Many of these ideas were dismissed as too radical just a week ago. Now they’re starting to seem like the only reasonable path to get out of this crisis and prevent future ones.
ELIZABETH COHEN: Now, here’s something that helps explain the difference between the testing situation in South Korea and the U.S. The South Korea, like European countries and Canada, has universal single-payer insurance. And that means that it’s easier to mobilize, and also people know what to do. There is pretty much one answer for how to get testing. The U.S. is a patchwork of countless different systems, and so you can’t say, “Here’s exactly the steps that every American should take in order to get tested.”
NAOMI KLEIN: And with Washington suddenly in the giant stimulus business, this is precisely the time for the stimulus that many of us have been talking about for years.
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ: Today is the day that we truly embark on a comprehensive agenda of economic, social and racial justice in the United States of America.
NAOMI KLEIN: It’s called the Green New Deal. Instead of rescuing the dirty industries of the last century, we should be boosting the clean ones that will lead us into safety in the coming century. If there is one thing history teaches us, it’s that moments of shock are profoundly volatile. We either lose a whole lot of ground, get fleeced by elites and pay the price for decades, or we win progressive victories that seemed impossible just a few weeks earlier. This is no time to lose our nerve. The future will be determined by whoever is willing to fight harder for the ideas they have lying around.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s author and activist Naomi Klein of The Intercept. The video ends with Milton Friedman’s quote: “Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable.”
This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. When we come back, Nobel Prize-winning economist Joe Stiglitz. Stay with us.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: That’s Spanish pianist Alberto Gestoso, performing the Titanic theme song, “My Heart Will Go On,” for his quarantined neighbors in Barcelona. He was on his balcony. Spain has had more than 3,400 cases of the coronavirus in the last 24 hours. Now at least 17,000 people are infected, and that’s only what is known without widespread testing.


democracynow--2020-03-19--Headlines for March 19, 2020

Headlines for March 19, 2020

President Trump has invoked the Korean War-era Defense Production Act to allow the government to direct industrial production .
The @ @ @ @ @ economic adviser , Larry Kudlow , said Wednesday he was consulting with General Motors ’ @ @ @ @ @ factories to produce ventilators , which will be critical to keeping patients alive when a @ @ @ @ @ hospitals .
Kudlow also said the Trump administration is considering taking an equity stake in @ @ @ @ @ .
In 2008 , Kudlow blasted a similar move by the Obama administration to take @ @ @ @ @ after a bailout as “ an attack on free-market capitalism.
” On Wednesday , billionaire @ @ @ @ @ called on President Trump to shut down the country for the next 30 days and @ @ @ @ @ tweeted , “ With exponential compounding , every day we postpone the shutdown costs thousands @ @ @ @ @ thousands , and then millions of lives , and destroys the economy.
” He was @ @ @ @

President Trump has invoked the Korean War-era Defense Production Act to allow the government to direct industrial production. The White House’s top economic adviser, Larry Kudlow, said Wednesday he was consulting with General Motors’s CEO to use idled factories to produce ventilators, which will be critical to keeping patients alive when a surge of coronavirus cases reaches hospitals.
Kudlow also said the Trump administration is considering taking an equity stake in companies bailed out by taxpayers. In 2008, Kudlow blasted a similar move by the Obama administration to take a stake in General Motors after a bailout as “an attack on free-market capitalism.”
On Wednesday, billionaire hedge fund investor Bill Ackman called on President Trump to shut down the country for the next 30 days and close the borders. Ackman tweeted, “With exponential compounding, every day we postpone the shutdown costs thousands, and soon hundreds of thousands, and then millions of lives, and destroys the economy.” He was writing from self-isolation.


democracynow--2020-03-20--Solidarity Not Charity: Mutual Aid & How to Organize in the Age of Coronavirus

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
, democracynow.org , The War and Peace Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman .
We end today ’ s show looking at the incredible community networks across the United States that are coming together to protect their neighbors during the coronavirus pandemic — and how you can get involved .
As lockdowns and layoffs sweep the country , leaving millions at risk , mutual aid groups are forming to protect and provide for the vulnerable , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and unhoused .
Their aim ?
Solidarity not charity .
In Washington , the Tacoma Mutual Aid Collective is organizing free food programs for kids hit by school closures .
In the Bay Area of California , the West Oakland Punks with Lunch is working with the houseless community and distributing lunch and supplies .
In Arizona , Tucson Mutual Aid is coordinating food and supply drop-offs to people ’ s front doors .
In Colorado , the Denver Service Worker Solidarity group is building a network to demand an immediate moratorium on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Minnesota , the Twin Cities Queer and Trans Mutual Aid group is organizing assistance for queer , transgender and gender nonbinary people affected by COVID-19 .
Here in New York City , now the epicenter in this country , NYC United Against Coronavirus has put together a network of resources for child care , grocery delivery , food donations , housing needs , bail funds and other types of support across the five boroughs .
And those are just a few of the thousands of efforts .
For more , we go to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ pandemic : Seattle , Washington , and here in New York City .
We ’ re joined by two longtime mutual aid organizers .
In New York City , Mariame Kaba is with us , longtime organizer , abolitionist , [ educator ] and founder of the grassroots organization Project NIA , which works to end the incarceration of children and young adults .
She ’ s raised tens of thousands of dollars and redistributed it to groups across the country in response to the coronavirus pandemic .
She just did a public @ @ @ @ @ @ @ mutual aid .
And in Seattle , Washington , Dean Spade is with us , associate professor at Seattle University School of Law , founder of the Sylvia Rivera Law Project , creator of the mutual aid resource website BigDoorBrigade.com .
We welcome you both to Democracy Now !
in this so difficult , trying , challenging time .
Mariame , tell us about a few more of these mutual aid efforts and what you ’ re doing .
MARIAME KABA : Sure .
As I mentioned — as you mentioned , there @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
I have been privy to seeing the work that ’ s happening in Chicago , where Kelly Hayes , Delia Galindo and other organizers pulled together , on very short notice , a Google doc to help people with direct needs , who needed any number of dollars , whether for rent or food or etc.
, provided an opportunity for people to sign up , and then for people who could offer to support to step in to do that .
So that ’ s one way that , through technology @ @ @ @ @ @ @ other in order to be able to meet people ’ s direct needs .
There are folks here in New York City , as you mentioned , that pulled together an abolitionist group , an abolitionist mutual aid fund , that raised money to be able to provide groceries to folks , grocery money to people .
AMY GOODMAN : And explain what you mean , Mariame , when you say “ abolitionist.
” MARIAME KABA : Well , in this case , it was an abolitionist collective , meaning people who are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we need to create the conditions in the world to be able to abolish prisons , policing and surveillance .
So , in this particular case , this grouping came together — they ’ re socialists , abolitionists , feminists — and they try to raise money in order to be able to provide grocery money for folks in the — not just in New York , I think , beyond New York , as well .
They got — I think this is an important point , which was that they raised @ @ @ @ @ @ @ nearly $ 40,000 .
But the requests that came in were $ 220,000 .
And so , you can see that there ’ s an incredible need , and that need needs to find a way to get met .
And it won ’ t just be happening through individual donations .
It has to also be the state mobilizing to provide for the needs of those people .
So those are just a couple of examples .
Survived and Punished New York did a soap drive to raise money so that soap @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , first in New York and now around the country , because , as you know , incarcerated people can be hired , for example , through Governor Cuomo , to create hand sanitizer , that would help the rest of the community , but they themselves can ’ t have hand sanitizer within the prisons because of the alcohol level within those particular — within that particular hand sanitizer .
So , trying to mobilize to meet the material needs of the folks who need support and to have that reciprocity is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I want to go to Dean Spade .
Mariame Kaba is in Brooklyn , New York , and Dean is in Seattle , associate professor of Seattle University School of Law .
Talk about the history of mutual aid , for people who have never heard that term before .
DEAN SPADE : Yeah .
The term “ mutual aid ” basically just means when people band together to meet immediate survival needs , usually because of a shared understanding that the systems in place aren ’ t coming to meet them , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ at all , and that we can do it together right now .
So , usually you see them really visibly during kind of sudden disasters , like earthquakes , storms , floods , where people are rescuing each other or distributing water or distributing masks , things like that .
But there ’ s also an ongoing history of people and a contemporary reality of people doing mutual aid projects to deal with the ongoing disasters of the systems we live under .
So , an example a lot of people have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Arizona , which puts water into the desert , and food , so that people who are crossing , hopefully , are less — it ’ s less mortal for them ; or abortion funds , that help people access abortion right now ; or bail funds , as you mentioned ; or projects that help people coming out of foster care or our of prison find housing ; or prison pen pal projects ; or child care collectives .
Those are all sort of ongoing ways people are meeting each other ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ most probably visible historical example of mutual aid in the U.S. that people talk about a lot is , of course , the Black Panther Party ’ s free breakfast programs and health programs , which were a vital part of the party ’ s work .
And it ’ s a good example of how social movements often , pretty much always , centrally organize mutual aid , because people come into social movements to get immediate needs met , and they also desperately want to help others facing what they ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ re there , they can build a shared analysis : Hey , why don ’ t we have food ?
Why don ’ t we have shelter ?
What systems are in place that we all actually want to get to the root causes of ?
And I think that one other piece to say about this is that in a country like ours , the story is elites will solve the problems , we should change laws , or we should get policies passed , and you should kind of wait to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and ask them to do things .
And mutual aid has a really different feeling to it .
It ’ s like , you know what ?
We ’ re not just going to wait and hope that they solve our problems , especially since they have a bad record of not doing that , and especially because most relief doesn ’ t end up reaching the poorest people or the most marginalized or targeted people .
Instead , we ’ re going to do something right now to build the world we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s a very empowering , participatory kind of work that tends to build people ’ s ability to mobilize generally .
AMY GOODMAN : And the idea of solidarity not charity , Dean ?
DEAN SPADE : Yeah .
So , “ charity ” is a word we often use to think about like social services or nonprofits that give stuff to poor people if you qualify , if you meet these eligibility verification requirements , if you ’ re the right kind of poor person .
We don ’ t give @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sober , unless you take these meds , or unless you have kids , or — you know , there ’ s histories — unless you ’ re properly Christian or not queer or whatever .
Charity is this kind of thing where usually money ’ s coming from the rich , and they get to determine who is deserving .
That ’ s the opposite of solidarity , right ?
Solidarity is , wow , people are in need ?
That ’ s not because they ’ ve done something wrong , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ones and reform them .
It ’ s because there ’ s something wrong with the system that makes people homeless , that makes people criminalized , that makes people desperate and makes people , you know , have no immigration status — whatever the case may be .
So it ’ s a really different framework , and it ’ s not about saviorism or about elites determining who should get what relief , which is how charity looks .
It ’ s instead about all of us getting together and practically @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s needs and solve immediate problems together , in a very grassroots , bottom-up way , instead of a top-down way .
AMY GOODMAN : And , Mariame Kaba , we only have a few minutes .
How do you hope to see these networks being developed in response to the pandemic evolve even after ?
And that ’ s a hopeful question , thinking about after the pandemic .
And also where people can go to see the kind of groups that they can support ?
MARIAME KABA : Sure .
So @ @ @ @ @ @ @ important parts about mutual aid has to do with changing the social relationships that we have amongst each other , in order to be able to fight beyond this current moment , beyond the current crisis , beyond the current form of a disaster that we ’ re trying to overcome .
And so , one of the beautiful aspects is that you really don ’ t know where the connections are going to take you .
You ’ re going to make and build new relationships that will kind of lead to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ understandings , that will shape the potential future of , you know , your community and beyond .
I think the fact that these are like hyper-local projects is actually a very helpful thing , because you ’ re definitely going to run into these folks again .
And it provides a foundation for future political action , if it ’ s done in a good way where people feel good about it and good about each other .
So I think that ’ s very important .
And in terms of where @ @ @ @ @ @ @ these mutual aid projects , there ’ s a new hub that was created , that somebody put together , using all of these different — how do you call it ?
— all the different Google docs that have been coming up and circulating , so that people could find each other and find themselves .
And I will send that , because I don ’ t have the actual link for it right now .
But I will send that over so that you can put it on your site .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ people can connect .
People can go to Twitter , go to Instagram , go to Facebook .
There ’ s so many Facebook pages that have come up , so many — AMY GOODMAN : And , of course , we ’ ll link to it at democracynow.org .
There have been calls by progressive prosecutors , DAs and , of course , the whole abolitionist movement around the country , to release people in jails at this critical point , and detention centers .
Can you quickly — we have just @ @ @ @ @ @ @ MARIAME KABA : Yes , absolutely .
And I want to comment specifically for New York .
Governor Cuomo has complete discretion to be able to issue mass clemencies for the prisons .
We know that de Blasio , the mayor , has the power to be able to release hundreds and thousands of people from Rikers Island and other jails .
And so we really want them to be able to do that .
There ’ s lots of pressure and demands that have been issued by local groups .
And we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ re going to leave it there .
AMY GOODMAN : But I want to thank you both for being with us , Mariame Kaba , organizer , abolitionist , founder of Project NIA , and Dean Spade , associate professor at Seattle University School of Law , founder of the Sylvia Rivera Law Project , creator of mutual aid resource website BigDoorBrigade.com .
I want to just take this moment to thank the remarkable team of family , my co-workers at Democracy Now !
, who are mainly working from home .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ Miriam Barnard , Mike Burke , Renée Feltz , Deena Guzder , Nermeen Shaikh , Carla Wills , Tami Woronoff , Libby Rainey , Sam Alcoff , John Hamilton , Robby Karran , Hany Massoud , Charina Nadura , Tey-Marie Astudillo , Denis Moynihan , Adriano Contreras , María Taracena .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman. We end today’s show looking at the incredible community networks across the United States that are coming together to protect their neighbors during the coronavirus pandemic — and how you can get involved. As lockdowns and layoffs sweep the country, leaving millions at risk, mutual aid groups are forming to protect and provide for the vulnerable, including the elderly, incarcerated, undocumented and unhoused. Their aim? Solidarity not charity.
In Washington, the Tacoma Mutual Aid Collective is organizing free food programs for kids hit by school closures. In the Bay Area of California, the West Oakland Punks with Lunch is working with the houseless community and distributing lunch and supplies. In Arizona, Tucson Mutual Aid is coordinating food and supply drop-offs to people’s front doors. In Colorado, the Denver Service Worker Solidarity group is building a network to demand an immediate moratorium on rent collection and evictions citywide. In Minnesota, the Twin Cities Queer and Trans Mutual Aid group is organizing assistance for queer, transgender and gender nonbinary people affected by COVID-19. Here in New York City, now the epicenter in this country, NYC United Against Coronavirus has put together a network of resources for child care, grocery delivery, food donations, housing needs, bail funds and other types of support across the five boroughs. And those are just a few of the thousands of efforts.
For more, we go to two of the hot spots of the pandemic: Seattle, Washington, and here in New York City. We’re joined by two longtime mutual aid organizers. In New York City, Mariame Kaba is with us, longtime organizer, abolitionist, [educator] and founder of the grassroots organization Project NIA, which works to end the incarceration of children and young adults. She’s raised tens of thousands of dollars and redistributed it to groups across the country in response to the coronavirus pandemic. She just did a public conference call with Congressmember Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on mutual aid. And in Seattle, Washington, Dean Spade is with us, associate professor at Seattle University School of Law, founder of the Sylvia Rivera Law Project, creator of the mutual aid resource website BigDoorBrigade.com.
We welcome you both to Democracy Now! in this so difficult, trying, challenging time. Mariame, tell us about a few more of these mutual aid efforts and what you’re doing.
MARIAME KABA: Sure. As I mentioned — as you mentioned, there are several projects happening around the country. I have been privy to seeing the work that’s happening in Chicago, where Kelly Hayes, Delia Galindo and other organizers pulled together, on very short notice, a Google doc to help people with direct needs, who needed any number of dollars, whether for rent or food or etc., provided an opportunity for people to sign up, and then for people who could offer to support to step in to do that. So that’s one way that, through technology, people are reaching out to each other in order to be able to meet people’s direct needs.
There are folks here in New York City, as you mentioned, that pulled together an abolitionist group, an abolitionist mutual aid fund, that raised money to be able to provide groceries to folks, grocery money to people.
AMY GOODMAN: And explain what you mean, Mariame, when you say “abolitionist.”
MARIAME KABA: Well, in this case, it was an abolitionist collective, meaning people who are prison-industrial complex abolitionists, who believe that we need to create the conditions in the world to be able to abolish prisons, policing and surveillance. So, in this particular case, this grouping came together — they’re socialists, abolitionists, feminists — and they try to raise money in order to be able to provide grocery money for folks in the — not just in New York, I think, beyond New York, as well. They got — I think this is an important point, which was that they raised a lot of money quickly, about nearly $40,000. But the requests that came in were $220,000. And so, you can see that there’s an incredible need, and that need needs to find a way to get met. And it won’t just be happening through individual donations. It has to also be the state mobilizing to provide for the needs of those people. So those are just a couple of examples.
Survived and Punished New York did a soap drive to raise money so that soap could be sent inside to incarcerated people, first in New York and now around the country, because, as you know, incarcerated people can be hired, for example, through Governor Cuomo, to create hand sanitizer, that would help the rest of the community, but they themselves can’t have hand sanitizer within the prisons because of the alcohol level within those particular — within that particular hand sanitizer. So, trying to mobilize to meet the material needs of the folks who need support and to have that reciprocity is key.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, I want to go to Dean Spade. Mariame Kaba is in Brooklyn, New York, and Dean is in Seattle, associate professor of Seattle University School of Law. Talk about the history of mutual aid, for people who have never heard that term before.
DEAN SPADE: Yeah. The term “mutual aid” basically just means when people band together to meet immediate survival needs, usually because of a shared understanding that the systems in place aren’t coming to meet them, or certainly not fast enough, if at all, and that we can do it together right now. So, usually you see them really visibly during kind of sudden disasters, like earthquakes, storms, floods, where people are rescuing each other or distributing water or distributing masks, things like that. But there’s also an ongoing history of people and a contemporary reality of people doing mutual aid projects to deal with the ongoing disasters of the systems we live under. So, an example a lot of people have heard of is No More Deaths in Arizona, which puts water into the desert, and food, so that people who are crossing, hopefully, are less — it’s less mortal for them; or abortion funds, that help people access abortion right now; or bail funds, as you mentioned; or projects that help people coming out of foster care or our of prison find housing; or prison pen pal projects; or child care collectives. Those are all sort of ongoing ways people are meeting each other’s needs.
And I think the most probably visible historical example of mutual aid in the U.S. that people talk about a lot is, of course, the Black Panther Party’s free breakfast programs and health programs, which were a vital part of the party’s work. And it’s a good example of how social movements often, pretty much always, centrally organize mutual aid, because people come into social movements to get immediate needs met, and they also desperately want to help others facing what they’re facing. And when they’re there, they can build a shared analysis: Hey, why don’t we have food? Why don’t we have shelter? What systems are in place that we all actually want to get to the root causes of?
And I think that one other piece to say about this is that in a country like ours, the story is elites will solve the problems, we should change laws, or we should get policies passed, and you should kind of wait to vote for those people or lobby them and ask them to do things. And mutual aid has a really different feeling to it. It’s like, you know what? We’re not just going to wait and hope that they solve our problems, especially since they have a bad record of not doing that, and especially because most relief doesn’t end up reaching the poorest people or the most marginalized or targeted people. Instead, we’re going to do something right now to build the world we want to live in. So it’s a very empowering, participatory kind of work that tends to build people’s ability to mobilize generally.
AMY GOODMAN: And the idea of solidarity not charity, Dean?
DEAN SPADE: Yeah. So, “charity” is a word we often use to think about like social services or nonprofits that give stuff to poor people if you qualify, if you meet these eligibility verification requirements, if you’re the right kind of poor person. We don’t give it to you unless you’re sober, unless you take these meds, or unless you have kids, or — you know, there’s histories — unless you’re properly Christian or not queer or whatever. Charity is this kind of thing where usually money’s coming from the rich, and they get to determine who is deserving.
That’s the opposite of solidarity, right? Solidarity is, wow, people are in need? That’s not because they’ve done something wrong, and we need to find the good ones and reform them. It’s because there’s something wrong with the system that makes people homeless, that makes people criminalized, that makes people desperate and makes people, you know, have no immigration status — whatever the case may be. So it’s a really different framework, and it’s not about saviorism or about elites determining who should get what relief, which is how charity looks. It’s instead about all of us getting together and practically just trying to meet each other’s needs and solve immediate problems together, in a very grassroots, bottom-up way, instead of a top-down way.
AMY GOODMAN: And, Mariame Kaba, we only have a few minutes. How do you hope to see these networks being developed in response to the pandemic evolve even after? And that’s a hopeful question, thinking about after the pandemic. And also where people can go to see the kind of groups that they can support?
MARIAME KABA: Sure. So, I think one of the most important parts about mutual aid has to do with changing the social relationships that we have amongst each other, in order to be able to fight beyond this current moment, beyond the current crisis, beyond the current form of a disaster that we’re trying to overcome. And so, one of the beautiful aspects is that you really don’t know where the connections are going to take you. You’re going to make and build new relationships that will kind of lead to new projects and will lead to new understandings, that will shape the potential future of, you know, your community and beyond.
I think the fact that these are like hyper-local projects is actually a very helpful thing, because you’re definitely going to run into these folks again. And it provides a foundation for future political action, if it’s done in a good way where people feel good about it and good about each other. So I think that’s very important.
And in terms of where people can go to find some of these mutual aid projects, there’s a new hub that was created, that somebody put together, using all of these different — how do you call it? — all the different Google docs that have been coming up and circulating, so that people could find each other and find themselves. And I will send that, because I don’t have the actual link for it right now. But I will send that over so that you can put it on your site. And that’s a way where people can connect. People can go to Twitter, go to Instagram, go to Facebook. There’s so many Facebook pages that have come up, so many —
AMY GOODMAN: And, of course, we’ll link to it at democracynow.org. There have been calls by progressive prosecutors, DAs and, of course, the whole abolitionist movement around the country, to release people in jails at this critical point, and detention centers. Can you quickly — we have just 20 seconds — comment on this?
MARIAME KABA: Yes, absolutely. And I want to comment specifically for New York. Governor Cuomo has complete discretion to be able to issue mass clemencies for the prisons. We know that de Blasio, the mayor, has the power to be able to release hundreds and thousands of people from Rikers Island and other jails. And so we really want them to be able to do that. There’s lots of pressure and demands that have been issued by local groups. And we want folk —
AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to leave it there.
MARIAME KABA: Yeah.
AMY GOODMAN: But I want to thank you both for being with us, Mariame Kaba, organizer, abolitionist, founder of Project NIA, and Dean Spade, associate professor at Seattle University School of Law, founder of the Sylvia Rivera Law Project, creator of mutual aid resource website BigDoorBrigade.com.
I want to just take this moment to thank the remarkable team of family, my co-workers at Democracy Now!, who are mainly working from home. I want to thank Julie Crosby, Miriam Barnard, Mike Burke, Renée Feltz, Deena Guzder, Nermeen Shaikh, Carla Wills, Tami Woronoff, Libby Rainey, Sam Alcoff, John Hamilton, Robby Karran, Hany Massoud, Charina Nadura, Tey-Marie Astudillo, Denis Moynihan, Adriano Contreras, María Taracena.