democracynow--2020-07-14--"Release Is Only Way to Save Lives": Migrant Families Face Separation as COVID Spreads in ICE Jails

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : We ’ re going to begin today with the coronavirus in the United States , particularly in ICE jails .
As the U.S. leads the world in COVID-19 infections , today we go behind the walls of immigrant jails , where infection rates are also soaring .
Nearly a thousand employees of the private companies that run the jails for ICE — that ’ s Immigration and Customs Enforcement — have now tested positive .
That ’ s according to congressional testimony @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the four leading for-profit jail companies : CoreCivic , The GEO Group , MTC — Management & Training Corp. — and LaSalle Corrections .
This comes as ICE reports more than 3,000 immigrants in ICE custody have tested positive , and at least three have died , including a 51-year-old Mexican man who died Sunday named Onoval Perez-Montufa .
A third of the prisoners who tested positive remain detained , while other have been deported , some while still infected .
Also Monday , a federal judge said he ’ ll wait @ @ @ @ @ @ @ migrant parents detained by ICE in family detention centers should be released in order to mitigate their exposure to COVID-19 .
The decision means ICE could begin to separate more than 300 more children and parents starting Friday , the deadline set by a federal judge in California for ICE to release children from its three family detention centers , but not necessarily their parents .
Meanwhile , experts are set to testify today before — Wednesday before the House on children in Customs and Border [ Protection ] custody .
For more @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Jacob Soboroff , who ’ s gone inside these ICE jails , witnessed kids in cages at the border when the Trump administration began carrying out its child separation policy in 2018 .
More than 5,400 children were separated as a direct result of the Trump policy .
Jacob Soboroff writes about this in his new book , Separated : Inside an American Tragedy .
This is Jacob reporting from an ICE detention facility in McAllen , Texas , in 2018 for NBC as Trump administration officials denied children were being held in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s Jacob Soboroff in 2018 .
He joins us now from Los Angeles for more .
He ’ s a correspondent for NBC and MSNBC , received the 2019 Walter Cronkite Award and the 2019 Hillman Prize for his reporting on child separations .
Jacob , welcome to Democracy Now !
Congratulations on your book .
If you can start off by telling us exactly how many children and parents you believe are still separated ?
And then comment on this latest news of a federal judge and what he ’ s doing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , Amy and Juan , I wanted to say to you both , it ’ s an honor , truly , to be on with you .
The honest answer is I don ’ t know .
The U.S. government doesn ’ t know .
And the ACLU , which won the reunification of the children separated by President Trump and the Trump administration under “ zero tolerance , ” doesn ’ t know , either .
The only thing we do know is that 5,400 children were systematically taken away — tortured @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Human Rights , a Nobel Peace Prize-winning organization — by the Trump administration , for no other reason than to deter families from coming to this country .
And while there were 2,800 kids in that first initial group separated under “ zero tolerance , ” there were about a thousand-plus separated before record-keeping began officially , and a thousand separated since .
And so , there are still attempts to locate and reunify families that were both deported to their home country without their children — parents , I should say — @ @ @ @ @ @ @ may be in the interior of the United States , but the government just simply can ’ t track them because of shoddy record-keeping .
And that ’ s one of the things that I write about in the book .
There were attempts , time after time , by career officials in the government , that did have the best interests of the children at heart , to keep track of them , but the Trump administration , at multiple key inflection points , stymied those efforts , including Scott Lloyd , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Refugee Resettlement , who considered destroying a list of separated children and parents when it leaked to The New York Times .
And then , as far as the children , 335 parents and children who are at risk of separation today , you talked about it earlier in the broadcast , but the simple version of that story is that the Trump administration could release parents and children together from ICE detention right now , as we ’ re all talking to each other .
They simply refuse to do that , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ literally pleading for their lives because of coronavirus , which is spreading rapidly through not just adult ICE detention centers , but is now in family detention centers , as well .
And so , while coronavirus threatens their lives , the government has chosen to let this July 17th Friday deadline approach , where Judge Gee here in California has told the administration to release the children , but the administration will not commit to releasing them with their parents .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : Well , Jake , specifically on the coronavirus @ @ @ @ @ @ @ current immigration detention system into further chaos ?
President Trump has been using it as a justification — further justification for his wall and for keeping out asylum seekers , as well as undocumented immigrants .
You would think that the officers of ICE themselves would begin to lobby for release because of the threats to their own health .
JACOB SOBOROFF : As a matter of fact , Juan , I spoke to one current employee at the Eloy Detention Center in Arizona , one of the detention centers with the worst @ @ @ @ @ @ @ he described it to me inside was a “ war zone , ” in our reporting for NBC News .
And what he meant by that was that he alleged that they were sharing PPE , personal protective equipment .
The first word is “ personal , ” yet he alleges that CoreCivic , the private prison company that owns the facility , is not giving them adequate personal protective equipment .
Detainees are being housed together , both infected and noninfected — at least they were — he alleges .
The bottom @ @ @ @ @ @ @ way to save the lives of people in custody , absent very stringent quarantine and health measures .
And when you talk to at least this employee — and we talked to multiple employees at that particular detention center — when you talk to lawyers who represent children in ICE detention — jails , basically , for families — there are some families in these detention centers who have been there nearly a year , when the Flores settlement agreement stipulates they can only be in there for 20 days — they say @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to let people out at this point .
And again , that ’ s sort of what I wanted to — I mean , frankly , I didn ’ t understand at the time — and that ’ s just the simple truth — when I was in the middle of covering family separations , how bad this was , how we got to this point , but how much worse that it could get .
And people said to me at the time , “ It ’ s going to get worse @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , on June 20th , 2018 , signed that executive order , I was warned it was going to get worse .
I didn ’ t understand what that meant .
Yet here we are , where you have children at risk of dying inside detention simply because the government continues to dangle family separations over these parents .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : And what about these companies , these private companies , like GEO , CoreCivic , MTC , that testified Monday before the Homeland Security Committee ?
How big of a portion @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ?
And could you talk about the amount — what kind of oversight there is over them , and what their profit levels are like in this situation ?
JACOB SOBOROFF : The majority is the answer .
And yesterday , before the House Homeland Security Committee , which we were watching closely , you know , they were asked some of these key pieces of information that have been emerging , in not just in our reporting but amazing reporting from other journalists over the course of the last couple weeks and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ agents being used — I mean , things that have been documented in the press .
And we heard , from several of these leaders , statements that directly contradicted reporting that was out there .
And frankly , I wasn ’ t surprised .
These sites have been described as black sites .
I ’ ve been inside the Adelanto ICE detention center in the High Desert here in Southern California , where the inspector general of the Department of Homeland Security observed nooses in cells of detainees .
I personally observed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ solitary confinement and isolation .
And this was on a tour provided to me by Immigration and Customs Enforcement , after I went to visit with a separated parent .
That was two years ago .
Imagine those conditions now combined with the coronavirus .
One of the key things that I continue to be astonished by is that the guards inside these ICE detention facilities are expected to test themselves for the coronavirus .
These facilities — and Immigration and Customs Enforcement has not made it a policy that these private prison @ @ @ @ @ @ @ So it ’ s basically a honor system — an honor system .
And so , if an infected employee doesn ’ t test , is asymptomatic , or is symptomatic and comes to work , the problem is very obvious .
So , the appeals are to have more stringent — the big appeal is to release everyone now .
And then , more limited appeals are to have more stringent testing requirements , to have more supervision of medical care — things that you would think are commonsense , but across @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , are not happening in these facilities .
AMY GOODMAN : Jacob Soboroff , can you tell us about your dinner with Katie Waldman ?
She is now Katie Miller , Vice President Mike Pence ’ s press secretary , just recently married to Trump ’ s senior adviser , Stephen Miller , known for his fierce anti-immigrant sentiments .
But before that , Katie Miller was Kirstjen Nielsen ’ s spokesperson at Homeland Security , vehemently defending the administration ’ s family separation policy .
Talk about that day .
JACOB SOBOROFF @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I went out to dinner with Katie , then Katie Waldman , now Katie Miller , and my colleague , Katy Tur , the MSNBC anchor , and we were having what ’ s known as a source dinner , not off the record , just discussing the topics of the day and what Katie Miller was currently working on .
And Katy Tur and I were asking Katie Miller about the experience — and this is after the family separation policy had ended — about defending the family separation policy .
And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ exact language is in the book — but Katie Miller said that DHS , her colleagues , had sent her to the border because they believed she lacked compassion during the separation crisis , and they wanted to make her more compassionate , to which I asked , “ Did it work ?
” And she said — and I said to her , “ Did it work ?
You know , I ’ ll never forget what I saw.
” And she said , “ No , it didn ’ t work @ @ @ @ @ @ @ more compassionate.
” And I asked her point-blank , “ Are you a white nationalist ?
” And Katy Tur sort of sat up in her chair when I asked Katie Waldman , Katie Miller , that .
And she said , “ No .
But I believe if you come to America , you should assimilate .
Why should we Little Havanas ?
” And in that moment , I was taken aback .
I mean , I didn ’ t know what to say .
What do you say to someone @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I included this in the book is it shows the underlying thought process , sort of the intentionality , of the people involved in the separation policy , despite the fact that they were warned on multiple occasions and people continually pressed back in them .
And when Kayleigh McEnany , the White House press secretary , was asked about this last week , she said that Katie Miller denied that she said this as written .
If that ’ s the case , ask Katy Tur .
Ask the other sources who @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this book came out and subsequent to the book coming out , sharing with me that she said similar versions of that exact story to them .
And again , if you don ’ t believe me , you ’ re believing someone who stood up for Kirstjen Nielsen denying that a family separation policy ever existed , when not only I saw it with my own eyes , but we as a nation saw it with our own eyes .
I find it preposterous that Katie Miller would deny that she said @ @ @ @ @ @ @ out there for everybody to see .
AMY GOODMAN : Jacob , interwoven throughout your book is the story of Juan and José , a father and son from Guatemala , who said they were fleeing narcoterrorists .
Tell us their story and what happened to them in the United States .
JACOB SOBOROFF : Yeah , the reason I wanted to include Juan and José — and those are names that they picked to protect their privacy and the lives , frankly , of their family , whom they left behind in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ t perfect .
Juan had come to the United States several times before as an economic migrant , worked and returned .
And he told me that openly .
He wasn ’ t ashamed of that .
But he did return to the United States with his son once they faced threats from narcos in Petén , Guatemala , in the north of Guatemala .
And so he decided to flee .
And when they did flee and they made it to the United States , after , as everyone knows , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ can choose to make — and you don ’ t make that decision to take that journey lightly — they were separated .
When they got to the border , they saw the Border Patrol , who they intended to turn themselves in to in order to seek asylum .
They were brought to Yuma Border Patrol station , where , incidentally , President Trump visited for a press conference just a couple weeks ago , and were almost immediately separated — Juan led to one cell , José led into another cell @ @ @ @ @ @ @ each other again for nearly five months , Juan being brought to Adelanto , to the ICE detention center I mentioned to you in the High Desert of California , and José being brought to a shelter in South Texas .
And José and Juan were almost never reunited , to be honest with you .
Juan was coerced into signing away his rights to be reunified with his son , almost joined the group of 400 parents deported without their children by the Trump administration .
And were it not for an @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Immigrant Defenders Law Center here in Los Angeles , they may never have been reunited .
And that ’ s one of the things from their story I wanted to include in this book , as well , that immigration attorneys , the work they do is so extraordinary , to me — and I learned about this during this process — as important as any first responder on any frontline .
And the courage and the determination of this one father and son , the willingness to share their story so that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and that ’ s why , they told me , they shared their story — is why I wanted to put them in the book .
And just one other thing , quickly , if I may .
When I was down on the border with President Trump a couple weeks ago , Juan said to me , “ If you see President Trump , do me a favor and ask him a question : Why did he separate us ?
Why did he traumatize us psychologically ?
” And the fact that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you know , that ’ s a story that plays out 5,400 times , each one its own individual story .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : And , Jake , I wanted to ask you — one of the amazing revelations in your book is of a memo that a top homeland security lawyer sent to Secretary Kristjen Nielsen — at the time , she was the head of Homeland Security — specifically saying that the family separation policy could break numerous laws and violate constitutional rights of families , yet Nielsen went ahead and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you elaborate on that ?
JACOB SOBOROFF : Yeah .
John Mitnick was the general counsel of the Department of Homeland Security .
He had worked at Raytheon and was brought in by the Trump administration to come back to DHS , where he had worked during the Bush administration .
And in this legal memo , attached to a secretarial decision memo , they ’ re called , which was sent to Nielsen by her deputies , including Kevin McAleenan , Thomas Homan and Francis Cissna from USCIS , Mitnick ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
And it hasn ’ t been previously disclosed , at least the language in the memo itself , and I published it for the first time in the book .
You said it , Juan : She was warned that family separations would be violative of multiple U.S. laws and , not only that , potentially violate the U.S. Constitution and the due process rights of the migrants coming to this country , their human rights .
Yet Nielsen decided , after a period of time where she sat on the memo @ @ @ @ @ @ @ called “ Option 3 ” in this decision memo : to separate families from their children .
And to me , it makes the denial that this policy ever existed by her — and she sent out this famous tweet , “ We do not have a family separation policy , period.
” And she also stepped up to the podium in the White House briefing room for that disastrous press conference , I think a lot of us remember , to deny the policy .
It just — it makes it almost @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Secretary Nielsen , who , after receiving legal advice that the policy may violate the constitutional rights of migrants coming to the United States , she signed it herself and then proceeded to deny that the policy even existed .
And that is why I wanted to include the language from the memo specifically , so everyone can see what she had in front of her , she considered herself , and yet she decided to put it into place nevertheless .
AMY GOODMAN : Can you describe , Jacob Soboroff , your @ @ @ @ @ @ @ jails , the children that you saw , and how this changed your life ?
JACOB SOBOROFF : I ’ ll never forget it , Amy , for the rest of my life .
June 13th , 2018 , Brownsville , Texas .
I walked into a former Walmart , now called Casa Padre , ostensibly a shelter , and it was 250,000 square feet .
There were approximately 1,500 migrant boys detained inside for approximately 22 hours a day .
And hundreds of them , maybe as many as 400 , had @ @ @ @ @ @ @ separated from their parents by the Trump administration .
The facility was literally on the verge of overflowing .
It had a variance from the state of Texas to have five beds per room instead of four beds per room .
I walked around this facility on a tour with other journalists and officials from the government and from the shelter system itself .
We saw children watching films , Moana , the Disney movie , in the loading dock of the former Walmart in line for chow .
You know , I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I ’ ve been inside several county jails .
And I said at the time , and I maintain today , that the place was called a shelter , but , effectively , they were incarcerated .
And one of the things that was startling to me is that one of the officials — and I write about this in the book , the portion where we take the tour of this facility — said to me , “ You know , smile at the children .
They feel like they ’ re @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And ironically , that wasn ’ t the facility where I saw the cages .
It was just days later , on Father ’ s Day 2018 , at the McAllen Border Patrol processing station — Ursula , it ’ s known as — that I saw what Katie Waldman , Katie Miller , at the time told me was the epicenter of the policy : children in cages , sitting on concrete floors , under Mylar blankets , supervised by security contractors in a watchtower .
And every time I recall this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I saw .
Border Patrol agents , who admitted to me they were stressed and strained and struggling , they were not licensed social workers .
They could not touch the children .
There were only four social workers in the facility for all of the children that were separated by the Trump administration .
It was a disaster .
It was a — you know , we said this at the time ; it ’ s still true today .
It was a man-made disaster by the Trump administration , that was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ government , “ the greatest human rights catastrophe of my lifetime , ” were the words that that government official used .
They called Scott Lloyd — this same official — “ the most prolific child abuser in American history ” for allowing this to happen to the thousands of children in his custody .
He was the custodian of all of these children , the unaccompanied children within the federal government .
And again , despite warnings — JUAN GONZÁLEZ : Jake , I ’ d like to ask you — I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ revelation in your book .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : You write that after President Trump had ended the family separations by executive order , that there was a federal health official who was pressured to lie under oath about the effects of that policy on children .
And this was — he was being pressured as he was being prepped for a congressional hearing .
Could you talk about that and who was involved ?
JACOB SOBOROFF : Yeah .
You ’ re talking about Commander Jonathan White , who was the federal health @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the officials that had warned politicals within the government of the horrible effects that the separation policy would have on children .
Commander White was a career official from the Public Health Service Commissioned Corps , which , incidentally , is now being dispatched to deal with the coronavirus , and had warned the government that family separations would have horrific effects on children .
And so , when they were in what ’ s known as a murder board , a practice session , Commander White and several other officials , including @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not mistaken , for the first congressional hearings into the separation policy , there was a huge argument over whether or not those who would testify would say that family separations were harmful to children , scientifically harmful .
And yet again , Katie Waldman , Katie Miller , was in that room .
And Commander White , according to several people who were in the room , got into a big argument with Katie Miller .
She said to him , “ You ’ re a bleeding-heart liberal , ” and essentially @ @ @ @ @ @ @ were not harmful to the interests of children , despite the facts he knew they were .
And ultimately , when Commander White appeared before this committee , he said exactly what he believed , despite the best efforts of officials within the Trump administration , including Miller and another spokesperson for homeland security who were in that room , who were pressuring him not to do so .
AMY GOODMAN : As we wrap up , Jacob Soboroff , again , ICE reporting more than 3,000 immigrants in ICE detention have tested @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Talk about what has to happen right now .
JACOB SOBOROFF : Well , one thing I should say is that Chad Wolf , who was an architect of the family separation policy , which you ’ ll read in the book , and is today the acting secretary of homeland security , has said he doesn ’ t want to do a , quote-unquote , “ jailbreak ” of the 25,000 people in ICE custody .
And I think that every activist and lawyer for migrants would tell you , that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the administration currently .
They ’ re being asked to release medically vulnerable , medically sensitive people who are at risk in the facilities with the greatest incidences and occurrences of coronavirus , which has already killed employees of these facilities , including a sergeant at Eloy .
And in the absence of this order yesterday by a judge in the D.C. District Court , this sets up this huge moment on Friday , where you could have 335 parents and children separated by the Trump administration , because the children have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , the Trump administration , refuses to release the parents .
So , in the midst of a global pandemic , a pandemic which rages through our immigration detention system , the Trump administration is not focused on releasing families who are vulnerable — at least that ’ s what the lawyers and the activists say .
They ’ re focused on dangling this family separation , two years after this horrific policy , over families yet again .
And , I ’ m sorry to say , that ’ s where we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Soboroff , I want to thank you so much for being with us , correspondent for NBC News and MSNBC .
His new book , Separated : Inside an American Tragedy .
And this breaking news : The U.S. has just carried out its first federal execution in 17 years .
Daniel Lewis Lee was executed this morning .
Up next , the Washington NFL team , whose name is a slur against Native Americans , says it ’ s dropping that name .
We ’ ll speak with one of the Navajo @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the R-word from the team ’ s name .
Stay with us .
AMY GOODMAN : New York City ’ s All-City High School Latin Ensemble singing and playing at home together alone .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to begin today with the coronavirus in the United States, particularly in ICE jails. As the U.S. leads the world in COVID-19 infections, today we go behind the walls of immigrant jails, where infection rates are also soaring.
Nearly a thousand employees of the private companies that run the jails for ICE — that’s Immigration and Customs Enforcement — have now tested positive. That’s according to congressional testimony given Monday by the rarely seen heads of the four leading for-profit jail companies: CoreCivic, The GEO Group, MTC — Management & Training Corp. — and LaSalle Corrections.
This comes as ICE reports more than 3,000 immigrants in ICE custody have tested positive, and at least three have died, including a 51-year-old Mexican man who died Sunday named Onoval Perez-Montufa. A third of the prisoners who tested positive remain detained, while other have been deported, some while still infected.
Also Monday, a federal judge said he’ll wait until next week to rule on whether migrant parents detained by ICE in family detention centers should be released in order to mitigate their exposure to COVID-19. The decision means ICE could begin to separate more than 300 more children and parents starting Friday, the deadline set by a federal judge in California for ICE to release children from its three family detention centers, but not necessarily their parents. Meanwhile, experts are set to testify today before — Wednesday before the House on children in Customs and Border [Protection] custody.
For more, we’re joined by reporter Jacob Soboroff, who’s gone inside these ICE jails, witnessed kids in cages at the border when the Trump administration began carrying out its child separation policy in 2018. More than 5,400 children were separated as a direct result of the Trump policy. Jacob Soboroff writes about this in his new book, Separated: Inside an American Tragedy. This is Jacob reporting from an ICE detention facility in McAllen, Texas, in 2018 for NBC as Trump administration officials denied children were being held in cages.
JACOB SOBOROFF: This is the first time since — this is the first time ever that children have been separated on a systematic basis — look at those photos right there — from their parents. And that is because of the Trump administration. People in here are locked up in cages, essentially what look like animal kennels. I don’t know any other way to describe it. And strangely, The Washington Post gave Senator Jeff Merkley what they call three Pinocchios for saying that kids are locked up in cages in here. That’s exactly what I saw today. What’s different than what was going on in this building during the Obama administration is the systematic separation of children from their parents under this “zero-tolerance” policy.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s Jacob Soboroff in 2018. He joins us now from Los Angeles for more. He’s a correspondent for NBC and MSNBC, received the 2019 Walter Cronkite Award and the 2019 Hillman Prize for his reporting on child separations.
Jacob, welcome to Democracy Now! Congratulations on your book. If you can start off by telling us exactly how many children and parents you believe are still separated? And then comment on this latest news of a federal judge and what he’s doing about separations.
JACOB SOBOROFF: First, Amy and Juan, I wanted to say to you both, it’s an honor, truly, to be on with you.
The honest answer is I don’t know. The U.S. government doesn’t know. And the ACLU, which won the reunification of the children separated by President Trump and the Trump administration under “zero tolerance,” doesn’t know, either. The only thing we do know is that 5,400 children were systematically taken away — tortured, in the words of Physicians for Human Rights, a Nobel Peace Prize-winning organization — by the Trump administration, for no other reason than to deter families from coming to this country. And while there were 2,800 kids in that first initial group separated under “zero tolerance,” there were about a thousand-plus separated before record-keeping began officially, and a thousand separated since.
And so, there are still attempts to locate and reunify families that were both deported to their home country without their children — parents, I should say — and then families that were separated and may be in the interior of the United States, but the government just simply can’t track them because of shoddy record-keeping. And that’s one of the things that I write about in the book. There were attempts, time after time, by career officials in the government, that did have the best interests of the children at heart, to keep track of them, but the Trump administration, at multiple key inflection points, stymied those efforts, including Scott Lloyd, the former director of the Office of Refugee Resettlement, who considered destroying a list of separated children and parents when it leaked to The New York Times.
And then, as far as the children, 335 parents and children who are at risk of separation today, you talked about it earlier in the broadcast, but the simple version of that story is that the Trump administration could release parents and children together from ICE detention right now, as we’re all talking to each other. They simply refuse to do that, despite the fact that their lawyers are literally pleading for their lives because of coronavirus, which is spreading rapidly through not just adult ICE detention centers, but is now in family detention centers, as well. And so, while coronavirus threatens their lives, the government has chosen to let this July 17th Friday deadline approach, where Judge Gee here in California has told the administration to release the children, but the administration will not commit to releasing them with their parents.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, Jake, specifically on the coronavirus situation, how has that thrown the current immigration detention system into further chaos? President Trump has been using it as a justification — further justification for his wall and for keeping out asylum seekers, as well as undocumented immigrants. You would think that the officers of ICE themselves would begin to lobby for release because of the threats to their own health.
JACOB SOBOROFF: As a matter of fact, Juan, I spoke to one current employee at the Eloy Detention Center in Arizona, one of the detention centers with the worst instances of coronavirus, and the way he described it to me inside was a “war zone,” in our reporting for NBC News. And what he meant by that was that he alleged that they were sharing PPE, personal protective equipment. The first word is “personal,” yet he alleges that CoreCivic, the private prison company that owns the facility, is not giving them adequate personal protective equipment. Detainees are being housed together, both infected and noninfected — at least they were — he alleges.
The bottom line is, release is the only way to save the lives of people in custody, absent very stringent quarantine and health measures. And when you talk to at least this employee — and we talked to multiple employees at that particular detention center — when you talk to lawyers who represent children in ICE detention — jails, basically, for families — there are some families in these detention centers who have been there nearly a year, when the Flores settlement agreement stipulates they can only be in there for 20 days — they say the only way to save lives is to let people out at this point.
And again, that’s sort of what I wanted to — I mean, frankly, I didn’t understand at the time — and that’s just the simple truth — when I was in the middle of covering family separations, how bad this was, how we got to this point, but how much worse that it could get. And people said to me at the time, “It’s going to get worse than this.” Even though President Trump, on June 20th, 2018, signed that executive order, I was warned it was going to get worse. I didn’t understand what that meant. Yet here we are, where you have children at risk of dying inside detention simply because the government continues to dangle family separations over these parents.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And what about these companies, these private companies, like GEO, CoreCivic, MTC, that testified Monday before the Homeland Security Committee? How big of a portion of the detention business do they have? And could you talk about the amount — what kind of oversight there is over them, and what their profit levels are like in this situation?
JACOB SOBOROFF: The majority is the answer. And yesterday, before the House Homeland Security Committee, which we were watching closely, you know, they were asked some of these key pieces of information that have been emerging, in not just in our reporting but amazing reporting from other journalists over the course of the last couple weeks and months during the virus, including chemical agents being used — I mean, things that have been documented in the press. And we heard, from several of these leaders, statements that directly contradicted reporting that was out there.
And frankly, I wasn’t surprised. These sites have been described as black sites. I’ve been inside the Adelanto ICE detention center in the High Desert here in Southern California, where the inspector general of the Department of Homeland Security observed nooses in cells of detainees. I personally observed detainees clearly in mental distress put into solitary confinement and isolation. And this was on a tour provided to me by Immigration and Customs Enforcement, after I went to visit with a separated parent. That was two years ago. Imagine those conditions now combined with the coronavirus.
One of the key things that I continue to be astonished by is that the guards inside these ICE detention facilities are expected to test themselves for the coronavirus. These facilities — and Immigration and Customs Enforcement has not made it a policy that these private prison companies are to test the employees. So it’s basically a honor system — an honor system. And so, if an infected employee doesn’t test, is asymptomatic, or is symptomatic and comes to work, the problem is very obvious.
So, the appeals are to have more stringent — the big appeal is to release everyone now. And then, more limited appeals are to have more stringent testing requirements, to have more supervision of medical care — things that you would think are commonsense, but across the board, you’re hearing, are not happening in these facilities.
AMY GOODMAN: Jacob Soboroff, can you tell us about your dinner with Katie Waldman? She is now Katie Miller, Vice President Mike Pence’s press secretary, just recently married to Trump’s senior adviser, Stephen Miller, known for his fierce anti-immigrant sentiments. But before that, Katie Miller was Kirstjen Nielsen’s spokesperson at Homeland Security, vehemently defending the administration’s family separation policy. Talk about that day.
JACOB SOBOROFF: Sure. Well, Amy, I went out to dinner with Katie, then Katie Waldman, now Katie Miller, and my colleague, Katy Tur, the MSNBC anchor, and we were having what’s known as a source dinner, not off the record, just discussing the topics of the day and what Katie Miller was currently working on. And Katy Tur and I were asking Katie Miller about the experience — and this is after the family separation policy had ended — about defending the family separation policy.
And I’m paraphrasing here — the exact language is in the book — but Katie Miller said that DHS, her colleagues, had sent her to the border because they believed she lacked compassion during the separation crisis, and they wanted to make her more compassionate, to which I asked, “Did it work?” And she said — and I said to her, “Did it work? You know, I’ll never forget what I saw.” And she said, “No, it didn’t work. It didn’t make me more compassionate.” And I asked her point-blank, “Are you a white nationalist?” And Katy Tur sort of sat up in her chair when I asked Katie Waldman, Katie Miller, that. And she said, “No. But I believe if you come to America, you should assimilate. Why should we Little Havanas?” And in that moment, I was taken aback. I mean, I didn’t know what to say. What do you say to someone at that point?
But the reason I included this in the book is it shows the underlying thought process, sort of the intentionality, of the people involved in the separation policy, despite the fact that they were warned on multiple occasions and people continually pressed back in them.
And when Kayleigh McEnany, the White House press secretary, was asked about this last week, she said that Katie Miller denied that she said this as written. If that’s the case, ask Katy Tur. Ask the other sources who have come forward to me, before this book came out and subsequent to the book coming out, sharing with me that she said similar versions of that exact story to them. And again, if you don’t believe me, you’re believing someone who stood up for Kirstjen Nielsen denying that a family separation policy ever existed, when not only I saw it with my own eyes, but we as a nation saw it with our own eyes. I find it preposterous that Katie Miller would deny that she said that, when it’s all out there for everybody to see.
AMY GOODMAN: Jacob, interwoven throughout your book is the story of Juan and José, a father and son from Guatemala, who said they were fleeing narcoterrorists. Tell us their story and what happened to them in the United States.
JACOB SOBOROFF: Yeah, the reason I wanted to include Juan and José — and those are names that they picked to protect their privacy and the lives, frankly, of their family, whom they left behind in Guatemala — is because their story isn’t perfect.
Juan had come to the United States several times before as an economic migrant, worked and returned. And he told me that openly. He wasn’t ashamed of that. But he did return to the United States with his son once they faced threats from narcos in Petén, Guatemala, in the north of Guatemala. And so he decided to flee.
And when they did flee and they made it to the United States, after, as everyone knows, one of the most dangerous journeys anyone can choose to make — and you don’t make that decision to take that journey lightly — they were separated. When they got to the border, they saw the Border Patrol, who they intended to turn themselves in to in order to seek asylum. They were brought to Yuma Border Patrol station, where, incidentally, President Trump visited for a press conference just a couple weeks ago, and were almost immediately separated — Juan led to one cell, José led into another cell. And they didn’t see each other again for nearly five months, Juan being brought to Adelanto, to the ICE detention center I mentioned to you in the High Desert of California, and José being brought to a shelter in South Texas.
And José and Juan were almost never reunited, to be honest with you. Juan was coerced into signing away his rights to be reunified with his son, almost joined the group of 400 parents deported without their children by the Trump administration. And were it not for an immigration lawyer named Lindsay Toczylowski at the Immigrant Defenders Law Center here in Los Angeles, they may never have been reunited. And that’s one of the things from their story I wanted to include in this book, as well, that immigration attorneys, the work they do is so extraordinary, to me — and I learned about this during this process — as important as any first responder on any frontline. And the courage and the determination of this one father and son, the willingness to share their story so that this doesn’t happen again — and that’s why, they told me, they shared their story — is why I wanted to put them in the book.
And just one other thing, quickly, if I may. When I was down on the border with President Trump a couple weeks ago, Juan said to me, “If you see President Trump, do me a favor and ask him a question: Why did he separate us? Why did he traumatize us psychologically?” And the fact that he is articulating that to me, you know, that’s a story that plays out 5,400 times, each one its own individual story.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Jake, I wanted to ask you — one of the amazing revelations in your book is of a memo that a top homeland security lawyer sent to Secretary Kristjen Nielsen — at the time, she was the head of Homeland Security — specifically saying that the family separation policy could break numerous laws and violate constitutional rights of families, yet Nielsen went ahead and signed the policy into existence. Could you elaborate on that?
JACOB SOBOROFF: Yeah. John Mitnick was the general counsel of the Department of Homeland Security. He had worked at Raytheon and was brought in by the Trump administration to come back to DHS, where he had worked during the Bush administration. And in this legal memo, attached to a secretarial decision memo, they’re called, which was sent to Nielsen by her deputies, including Kevin McAleenan, Thomas Homan and Francis Cissna from USCIS, Mitnick’s legal analysis was attached to the memo. And it hasn’t been previously disclosed, at least the language in the memo itself, and I published it for the first time in the book.
You said it, Juan: She was warned that family separations would be violative of multiple U.S. laws and, not only that, potentially violate the U.S. Constitution and the due process rights of the migrants coming to this country, their human rights. Yet Nielsen decided, after a period of time where she sat on the memo and deliberated, to sign what was called “Option 3” in this decision memo: to separate families from their children.
And to me, it makes the denial that this policy ever existed by her — and she sent out this famous tweet, “We do not have a family separation policy, period.” And she also stepped up to the podium in the White House briefing room for that disastrous press conference, I think a lot of us remember, to deny the policy. It just — it makes it almost unbelievable, because it was her, Secretary Nielsen, who, after receiving legal advice that the policy may violate the constitutional rights of migrants coming to the United States, she signed it herself and then proceeded to deny that the policy even existed. And that is why I wanted to include the language from the memo specifically, so everyone can see what she had in front of her, she considered herself, and yet she decided to put it into place nevertheless.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you describe, Jacob Soboroff, your first visit inside one of these detention jails, the children that you saw, and how this changed your life?
JACOB SOBOROFF: I’ll never forget it, Amy, for the rest of my life. June 13th, 2018, Brownsville, Texas. I walked into a former Walmart, now called Casa Padre, ostensibly a shelter, and it was 250,000 square feet. There were approximately 1,500 migrant boys detained inside for approximately 22 hours a day. And hundreds of them, maybe as many as 400, had been there only because they were systematically separated from their parents by the Trump administration. The facility was literally on the verge of overflowing. It had a variance from the state of Texas to have five beds per room instead of four beds per room.
I walked around this facility on a tour with other journalists and officials from the government and from the shelter system itself. We saw children watching films, Moana, the Disney movie, in the loading dock of the former Walmart in line for chow. You know, I’ve been inside a prison. I’ve been inside several county jails. And I said at the time, and I maintain today, that the place was called a shelter, but, effectively, they were incarcerated.
And one of the things that was startling to me is that one of the officials — and I write about this in the book, the portion where we take the tour of this facility — said to me, “You know, smile at the children. They feel like they’re animals in cages being looked at.” And ironically, that wasn’t the facility where I saw the cages. It was just days later, on Father’s Day 2018, at the McAllen Border Patrol processing station — Ursula, it’s known as — that I saw what Katie Waldman, Katie Miller, at the time told me was the epicenter of the policy: children in cages, sitting on concrete floors, under Mylar blankets, supervised by security contractors in a watchtower. And every time I recall this, it makes me sick, what I saw.
Border Patrol agents, who admitted to me they were stressed and strained and struggling, they were not licensed social workers. They could not touch the children. There were only four social workers in the facility for all of the children that were separated by the Trump administration.
It was a disaster. It was a — you know, we said this at the time; it’s still true today. It was a man-made disaster by the Trump administration, that was, according to one official from the government, “the greatest human rights catastrophe of my lifetime,” were the words that that government official used. They called Scott Lloyd — this same official — “the most prolific child abuser in American history” for allowing this to happen to the thousands of children in his custody. He was the custodian of all of these children, the unaccompanied children within the federal government. And again, despite warnings —
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Jake?
JACOB SOBOROFF: Go ahead, Juan.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Jake, I’d like to ask you — I wanted to ask you about another startling revelation in your book.
JACOB SOBOROFF: Sure.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: You write that after President Trump had ended the family separations by executive order, that there was a federal health official who was pressured to lie under oath about the effects of that policy on children. And this was — he was being pressured as he was being prepped for a congressional hearing. Could you talk about that and who was involved?
JACOB SOBOROFF: Yeah. You’re talking about Commander Jonathan White, who was the federal health coordinating official, who was one of the officials that had warned politicals within the government of the horrible effects that the separation policy would have on children. Commander White was a career official from the Public Health Service Commissioned Corps, which, incidentally, is now being dispatched to deal with the coronavirus, and had warned the government that family separations would have horrific effects on children.
And so, when they were in what’s known as a murder board, a practice session, Commander White and several other officials, including Scott Lloyd, if I’m not mistaken, for the first congressional hearings into the separation policy, there was a huge argument over whether or not those who would testify would say that family separations were harmful to children, scientifically harmful. And yet again, Katie Waldman, Katie Miller, was in that room. And Commander White, according to several people who were in the room, got into a big argument with Katie Miller. She said to him, “You’re a bleeding-heart liberal,” and essentially pressured him to say that family separations were not harmful to the interests of children, despite the facts he knew they were.
And ultimately, when Commander White appeared before this committee, he said exactly what he believed, despite the best efforts of officials within the Trump administration, including Miller and another spokesperson for homeland security who were in that room, who were pressuring him not to do so.
AMY GOODMAN: As we wrap up, Jacob Soboroff, again, ICE reporting more than 3,000 immigrants in ICE detention have tested positive, at least three have died. Talk about what has to happen right now.
JACOB SOBOROFF: Well, one thing I should say is that Chad Wolf, who was an architect of the family separation policy, which you’ll read in the book, and is today the acting secretary of homeland security, has said he doesn’t want to do a, quote-unquote, “jailbreak” of the 25,000 people in ICE custody. And I think that every activist and lawyer for migrants would tell you, that is not what’s being asked of the administration currently. They’re being asked to release medically vulnerable, medically sensitive people who are at risk in the facilities with the greatest incidences and occurrences of coronavirus, which has already killed employees of these facilities, including a sergeant at Eloy.
And in the absence of this order yesterday by a judge in the D.C. District Court, this sets up this huge moment on Friday, where you could have 335 parents and children separated by the Trump administration, because the children have been ordered released, but the government, the Trump administration, refuses to release the parents.
So, in the midst of a global pandemic, a pandemic which rages through our immigration detention system, the Trump administration is not focused on releasing families who are vulnerable — at least that’s what the lawyers and the activists say. They’re focused on dangling this family separation, two years after this horrific policy, over families yet again. And, I’m sorry to say, that’s where we are today.
AMY GOODMAN: Jacob Soboroff, I want to thank you so much for being with us, correspondent for NBC News and MSNBC. His new book, Separated: Inside an American Tragedy.
And this breaking news: The U.S. has just carried out its first federal execution in 17 years. Daniel Lewis Lee was executed this morning.
Up next, the Washington NFL team, whose name is a slur against Native Americans, says it’s dropping that name. We’ll speak with one of the Navajo activists who led the charge to remove the R-word from the team’s name. Stay with us.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: New York City’s All-City High School Latin Ensemble singing and playing at home together alone.


democracynow--2020-07-14--Headlines for July 14, 2020

Headlines for July 14, 2020

The Los Angeles and San Diego school districts have announced that all classes will be conducted online at the start @ @ @ @ @ to the pandemic .
The city of Atlanta announced a similar plan .
This comes @ @ @ @ @ Secretary Betsy DeVos threatened to pull federal funding from schools that do not reopen .
@ @ @ @ @ , Governor Andrew Cuomo said schools will be allowed to reopen , but only in @ @ @ @ @ rates .
Gov .
Andrew Cuomo : “ We ’ re not going to use @ @ @ @ @ test .
And we ’ re not going to put our children in a place @ @ @ @ @ .
It ’ s that simple .
… We ’ re not going to use @ @ @ @ @ ” In other education news , 17 states have sued the Trump administration in an @ @ @ @ @ rule revoking the visas of foreign students who attend schools where classes are taught entirely @ @ @ @ @ pandemic .

The Los Angeles and San Diego school districts have announced that all classes will be conducted online at the start of the school year due to the pandemic. The city of Atlanta announced a similar plan. This comes as President Trump and Education Secretary Betsy DeVos threatened to pull federal funding from schools that do not reopen. Meanwhile, in New York, Governor Andrew Cuomo said schools will be allowed to reopen, but only in regions with low daily infection rates.
Gov. Andrew Cuomo: “We’re not going to use our children as the litmus test. And we’re not going to put our children in a place where their health is endangered. It’s that simple. … We’re not going to use our children as guinea pigs.”
In other education news, 17 states have sued the Trump administration in an effort to block a new rule revoking the visas of foreign students who attend schools where classes are taught entirely online due to the coronavirus pandemic.


democracynow--2020-07-16--"The Pandemic Could Get Much, Much Worse": Is Another Lockdown the Only Way to Avoid Catastrophe?

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
, democracynow.org , The Quarantine Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman , with Nermeen Shaikh .
As the coronavirus is on the rise in 41 states , the U.S. reported a record number of daily new cases Tuesday , with Wednesday ’ s count just barely below , at more than 67,000 new cases .
The official U.S. death toll is over 137,000 .
Hospital beds are running low in Texas and Arizona .
As several @ @ @ @ @ @ @ many governors are reimposing lockdowns after attempts at opening up the economy .
Earlier this week , California Governor Gavin Newsom ordered the closure of indoor restaurants , movie theaters and other institutions .
Alabama and Montana have ordered all people in public to wear masks .
This comes as Oklahoma Republican Governor Kevin Stitt has become the first governor to test positive for the virus .
He attended Trump ’ s indoor Tulsa rally on June 20th and did not wear a mask .
Herman Cain , the African American 70-year-old former @ @ @ @ @ @ @ without a mask — he ’ s a Trump supporter — and has been hospitalized ever since with COVID .
Well , we turn now to a guest who warns the pandemic could get much , much worse if we don ’ t take bolder action now .
Professor John Barry is professor at the Tulane University School of Public Health and Tropical Medicine and the author of The Great Influenza : The Story of the Deadliest Pandemic in History .
In recent New York Times op-ed , he argues a comprehensive shutdown @ @ @ @ @ @ @ country in order to regain control of the pandemic .
Professor Barry , welcome to Democracy Now !
It ’ s great to have you with us from New Orleans .
If you can start off by saying — talking about why you believe this pandemic can get much , much worse , and what that bold action you think the country needs to take to turn it around ?
The United States , the wealthiest country in the world , has a quarter of the deaths and more than a quarter of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ though it has less than 5 % of the population of the world .
Professor Barry ?
JOHN BARRY : Right .
Well , real problem will come later , when — in fact , Redfield , the CDC director , said much the same thing a couple of days ago .
There had been hope that hot weather would limit spread of the virus .
Most respiratory viruses , and probably this one , as well , do transmit less well in hot weather .
Obviously , we are seeing explosive spread @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
And unfortunately , there ’ s every reason to believe that the spread will actually get worse when the weather turns colder and it forces people indoors into poorly ventilated spaces .
You know , that ’ s standard for almost every respiratory infection , from influenza to the common cold .
You know , right now , obviously , we ’ re not in a good place .
I think when you compare where we are to Europe , it gives you a real sense of how bad things are here @ @ @ @ @ @ @ place that seemed totally devastated by coronavirus first .
Right now they have , on average , about 200 new cases a day in the entire country , yet their population is roughly equivalent to Texas , Florida , Arizona , Georgia combined .
And if you add the cases up in all of those states , you ’ re talking about probably close to — you know , well over 30,000 — 35,000 cases compared to fewer than 200 .
And what that demonstrates is that the public health measures that are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ person in public health , that ’ s what Italy did .
And they got the cases in the entire country down to 200 a day .
If we had done that the first time around , if we had brought our baseline down to a level like that , then we wouldn ’ t be having a debate over opening schools .
We wouldn ’ t have a debate over playing football .
Those things would be automatically going forward with precautions .
And the economy would be operating at practically 100 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do that initially .
The baseline — you know , we did blunt the curve , sort of flatten it , but we did not bring it down .
So that baseline remained too high .
And when we reopened too soon in many states with that baseline already high , it just took off .
You know , we ’ re pretty close to being too late , but we ’ re not too late at this point to bring the thing under control .
And if we don ’ t , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and people are inside , it could be pretty devastating .
It ’ s already devastating .
NERMEEN SHAIKH : Well , Professor Barry , the countries — Italy , of course , which you mentioned , was initially the epicenter of the pandemic .
Now , what these countries have done , not just in Europe , but also in Asia , in addition to massively expanding testing , is also using contact tracing .
NERMEEN SHAIKH : But that ’ s scarcely been used in the U.S .
I mean , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that even where it has been attempted , in Miami , for people who tested positive for COVID , only 17 % of those people completed the questionnaires that would be required for carrying out contact tracing .
So , could you explain why you think this hasn ’ t been one of the principal strategies that the U.S. has followed , despite the successes that this strategy has resulted in elsewhere , and also whether it ’ s even possible for contact tracing to work in a country with such enormous numbers @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Well , it has been a strategy , but the strategy has not been executed .
Again , it goes back to the investment in resources , how seriously people take the disease .
Obviously , we ’ ve gotten no leadership out of Washington .
A few states have done a pretty good job on contact tracing .
Too many states have not .
And again , when the case count is pretty low , it ’ s pretty easy to contact trace .
When the case count is over 10,000 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ no , that ’ s not possible .
Public health experts have recommended somewhere between — some as low as 100,000 contact traces nationally .
Others have thought as many as 300,000 were needed .
But the actual number that was employed , the best number that I could find was about 27,000 — obviously , way below the minimum estimate , much less the higher estimates of what ’ s needed .
It ’ s just a question of resources and seriousness .
And we haven ’ t had that .
NERMEEN @ @ @ @ @ @ @ so even though the U.S. leads by far in the number of infections with respect to countries — I mean , in an individual country — the vast majority of increases now are occurring in the developing world .
Indian epidemiologists , in fact , believe that India ’ s case numbers will very soon eclipse the United States .
Now , you ’ ve pointed out — you ’ ve written , of course , an entire book on the Spanish flu .
You ’ ve said that most people — more @ @ @ @ @ @ @ because people in the West had been exposed to other influenza viruses , so already had some protection against the Spanish flu when it emerged .
Now , how much do we know about whether exposure to other viruses is a factor here , as well , in COVID-19 , in determining or influencing mortality rates ?
JOHN BARRY : Well , there is some slight indication that there may be some very , very small cross-protection from other coronaviruses , but that wouldn ’ t be major .
And those things probably @ @ @ @ @ @ @ little bit different .
You know , most of the developed world , people have probably seen multiple influenza viruses .
The 1918 virus was a new virus .
But you still got , compared to — you still got some cross-protection if you had been exposed to other influenza viruses .
In so-called virgin populations — and this isn ’ t true only of influenza , but of most viruses — when people hadn ’ t seen any influenza virus , their immune systems were completely naive .
Then you were getting @ @ @ @ @ @ @ than that , of the entire population was being killed .
You know , that ’ s not really the case here .
This virus is quite different .
You know , again , the common cold is pretty general around the world , those coronaviruses .
I don ’ t think that there ’ s indications of a lot of benefit from them .
AMY GOODMAN : John Barry , I wanted to stay on this issue of the Spanish flu .
You wrote the book The Great Influenza : The Story @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And I was wondering , as a historian , if you can give a history lesson about what happened there .
And specifically , I mean , we ’ re calling it , of course , the Spanish flu , but I am wondering — you write , the single most important lesson from the 1918 influenza was to tell the truth .
The Trump administration is doing exactly the opposite .
I hardly learned about the Spanish flu , and certainly learned about World War I in school , but not the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ wonder if that was linked to actually a censoring of this story , and if we could see something similar to people trying to speak out about what ’ s happening right now in this country as President Trump tries to tamp down that discussion and move on .
Go back to 1918 , why it was even called the Spanish flu , not having anything to do with Spain , where it came from , and how it ’ s linked to war .
JOHN BARRY : Well , of course , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and Canada were at war .
And in the warring countries , there was either censorship or , in the U.S. , pretty effective self-censorship .
Spain was not at war .
We ’ re not sure where that 1918 virus entered the human population .
It could actually have been in the United States , could have been China , could have been France , could have been Vietnam .
But it didn ’ t start in Spain .
It was well established before it got to Spain .
But because Spain @ @ @ @ @ @ @ wrote about it .
In the warring countries , the powers that be didn ’ t want any bad news — any bad news , about anything — to get out , because they felt it would hurt morale and hurt the war effort .
So , Spain was writing about it .
The Spanish king got sick .
Celebrity culture , then as now , got a lot of attention , and it became known as Spanish flu .
In the United States , there was no Tony Fauci .
Even national @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ordinary influenza by another name , for the reasons they were trying to maintain morale .
But nobody was calling it a hoax in 1918 .
The virus was much more lethal than what we ’ re facing now .
If you see your neighbor die 24 hours after their first symptom , you know perfectly well it ’ s not a hoax .
All that happened as a result of this , the lying that was going on , was that people lost all trust .
It spread fear — terror , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ worst places , society actually began to fray .
And people died who otherwise would have survived if they had been told the truth , if they had been able to recognize early on , from the very beginning , how serious it was , and take some measures to protect yourself — themselves .
And those measures are exactly what people recommend today : social distancing , mask wearing , wash your hands — exactly the same things .
We know that they are effective .
You know , as I was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ down to 200 a day ; Germany , roughly 400 a day , in country significantly larger than Italy .
Most of Europe has the disease well under control at this point .
And , of course , in Asia , the numbers are even smaller .
Vietnam , which shares a border with China , hasn ’ t recorded a single death .
Not one .
So , public health measures work .
But you have to do them .
We have not done them in the United States , or too @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the United States .
NERMEEN SHAIKH : Well , Professor Barry , meanwhile , here , in Florida , one of the states where cases are rising , one in three children — that is , 31 % , almost one in three children — have tested positive now in Florida , and health officials are concerned that there might actually — it ’ s too early to tell .
We can ’ t say with any degree of certainty that children will not be affected long-term by getting the virus .
NERMEEN @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to another — you made the case , in March , that there was no indication that COVID-19 will become more virulent than it is now .
NERMEEN SHAIKH : But you did say that it ’ s going to come in several waves and become endemic .
Is there still — I mean , that was three-and-a-half months ago , when it first began , it spread here .
Is it still the case , does the latest research still confirm , that COVID-19 won ’ t become more virulent ?
JOHN @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was pretty mild , quite mild , in the first wave and then turned very lethal .
But there is not the slightest sign anywhere that that is going to be the case with COVID-19 .
There have been some mutations that suggest it ’ s actually maybe more contagious , but not more virulent , so — thankfully .
It ’ s bad enough as it is .
And as you say , we ’ re not sure what the long-term implications are , whether there will be complications or some damage @ @ @ @ @ @ @ or takes a very long time to recover from .
We just don ’ t know .
It ’ s too new a virus .
AMY GOODMAN : John Barry , we want to thank you so much for being with us , professor at the Tulane University School of Public Health and Tropical Medicine , author of , among many books , The Great Influenza : The Story of the Deadliest Pandemic in History .
We ’ ll link to your pieces in The New York Times , the latest , “ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Worse .
We Must Act Now.
” That does it for our show .
I ’ m Amy Goodman , with Nermeen Shaikh .
Stay safe .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The Quarantine Report. I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh. As the coronavirus is on the rise in 41 states, the U.S. reported a record number of daily new cases Tuesday, with Wednesday’s count just barely below, at more than 67,000 new cases. The official U.S. death toll is over 137,000. Hospital beds are running low in Texas and Arizona.
As several other states face increasingly dire circumstances, many governors are reimposing lockdowns after attempts at opening up the economy. Earlier this week, California Governor Gavin Newsom ordered the closure of indoor restaurants, movie theaters and other institutions. Alabama and Montana have ordered all people in public to wear masks.
This comes as Oklahoma Republican Governor Kevin Stitt has become the first governor to test positive for the virus. He attended Trump’s indoor Tulsa rally on June 20th and did not wear a mask. Herman Cain, the African American 70-year-old former presidential candidate, also attended the rally without a mask — he’s a Trump supporter — and has been hospitalized ever since with COVID.
Well, we turn now to a guest who warns the pandemic could get much, much worse if we don’t take bolder action now. Professor John Barry is professor at the Tulane University School of Public Health and Tropical Medicine and the author of The Great Influenza: The Story of the Deadliest Pandemic in History. In recent New York Times op-ed, he argues a comprehensive shutdown may be required in much of the country in order to regain control of the pandemic.
Professor Barry, welcome to Democracy Now! It’s great to have you with us from New Orleans. If you can start off by saying — talking about why you believe this pandemic can get much, much worse, and what that bold action you think the country needs to take to turn it around? The United States, the wealthiest country in the world, has a quarter of the deaths and more than a quarter of the infections in the world, even though it has less than 5% of the population of the world. Professor Barry?
JOHN BARRY: Right. Well, real problem will come later, when — in fact, Redfield, the CDC director, said much the same thing a couple of days ago. There had been hope that hot weather would limit spread of the virus. Most respiratory viruses, and probably this one, as well, do transmit less well in hot weather. Obviously, we are seeing explosive spread in much of the country right now. And unfortunately, there’s every reason to believe that the spread will actually get worse when the weather turns colder and it forces people indoors into poorly ventilated spaces. You know, that’s standard for almost every respiratory infection, from influenza to the common cold. You know, right now, obviously, we’re not in a good place.
I think when you compare where we are to Europe, it gives you a real sense of how bad things are here. You know, Italy was a place that seemed totally devastated by coronavirus first. Right now they have, on average, about 200 new cases a day in the entire country, yet their population is roughly equivalent to Texas, Florida, Arizona, Georgia combined. And if you add the cases up in all of those states, you’re talking about probably close to — you know, well over 30,000 — 35,000 cases compared to fewer than 200.
And what that demonstrates is that the public health measures that are being advocated, unanimously, by every person in public health, that’s what Italy did. And they got the cases in the entire country down to 200 a day. If we had done that the first time around, if we had brought our baseline down to a level like that, then we wouldn’t be having a debate over opening schools. We wouldn’t have a debate over playing football. Those things would be automatically going forward with precautions. And the economy would be operating at practically 100% by now.
We failed to do that initially. The baseline — you know, we did blunt the curve, sort of flatten it, but we did not bring it down. So that baseline remained too high. And when we reopened too soon in many states with that baseline already high, it just took off. You know, we’re pretty close to being too late, but we’re not too late at this point to bring the thing under control. And if we don’t, again, when the weather gets cold and people are inside, it could be pretty devastating. It’s already devastating.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, Professor Barry, the countries — Italy, of course, which you mentioned, was initially the epicenter of the pandemic. Now, what these countries have done, not just in Europe, but also in Asia, in addition to massively expanding testing, is also using contact tracing.
JOHN BARRY: Right.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: But that’s scarcely been used in the U.S. I mean, you point out in a recent article that even where it has been attempted, in Miami, for people who tested positive for COVID, only 17% of those people completed the questionnaires that would be required for carrying out contact tracing. So, could you explain why you think this hasn’t been one of the principal strategies that the U.S. has followed, despite the successes that this strategy has resulted in elsewhere, and also whether it’s even possible for contact tracing to work in a country with such enormous numbers of infections?
JOHN BARRY: Right. Well, it has been a strategy, but the strategy has not been executed. Again, it goes back to the investment in resources, how seriously people take the disease. Obviously, we’ve gotten no leadership out of Washington. A few states have done a pretty good job on contact tracing. Too many states have not.
And again, when the case count is pretty low, it’s pretty easy to contact trace. When the case count is over 10,000 in a single state every day, no, that’s not possible. Public health experts have recommended somewhere between — some as low as 100,000 contact traces nationally. Others have thought as many as 300,000 were needed. But the actual number that was employed, the best number that I could find was about 27,000 — obviously, way below the minimum estimate, much less the higher estimates of what’s needed. It’s just a question of resources and seriousness. And we haven’t had that.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, Professor Barry, so even though the U.S. leads by far in the number of infections with respect to countries — I mean, in an individual country — the vast majority of increases now are occurring in the developing world. Indian epidemiologists, in fact, believe that India’s case numbers will very soon eclipse the United States. Now, you’ve pointed out — you’ve written, of course, an entire book on the Spanish flu. You’ve said that most people — more people died in the developing world then because people in the West had been exposed to other influenza viruses, so already had some protection against the Spanish flu when it emerged. Now, how much do we know about whether exposure to other viruses is a factor here, as well, in COVID-19, in determining or influencing mortality rates?
JOHN BARRY: Well, there is some slight indication that there may be some very, very small cross-protection from other coronaviruses, but that wouldn’t be major. And those things probably have been worldwide. Influenza was a little bit different. You know, most of the developed world, people have probably seen multiple influenza viruses. The 1918 virus was a new virus. But you still got, compared to — you still got some cross-protection if you had been exposed to other influenza viruses. In so-called virgin populations — and this isn’t true only of influenza, but of most viruses — when people hadn’t seen any influenza virus, their immune systems were completely naive. Then you were getting instances where 20%, sometimes higher than that, of the entire population was being killed. You know, that’s not really the case here. This virus is quite different. You know, again, the common cold is pretty general around the world, those coronaviruses. I don’t think that there’s indications of a lot of benefit from them.
AMY GOODMAN: John Barry, I wanted to stay on this issue of the Spanish flu. You wrote the book The Great Influenza: The Story of the Deadliest Pandemic in History. And I was wondering, as a historian, if you can give a history lesson about what happened there. And specifically, I mean, we’re calling it, of course, the Spanish flu, but I am wondering — you write, the single most important lesson from the 1918 influenza was to tell the truth. The Trump administration is doing exactly the opposite. I hardly learned about the Spanish flu, and certainly learned about World War I in school, but not the Spanish flu of 1918. And I wonder if that was linked to actually a censoring of this story, and if we could see something similar to people trying to speak out about what’s happening right now in this country as President Trump tries to tamp down that discussion and move on. Go back to 1918, why it was even called the Spanish flu, not having anything to do with Spain, where it came from, and how it’s linked to war.
JOHN BARRY: Well, of course, most of Europe and North — U.S. and Canada were at war. And in the warring countries, there was either censorship or, in the U.S., pretty effective self-censorship. Spain was not at war. We’re not sure where that 1918 virus entered the human population. It could actually have been in the United States, could have been China, could have been France, could have been Vietnam. But it didn’t start in Spain. It was well established before it got to Spain. But because Spain was not at war, their press wrote about it. In the warring countries, the powers that be didn’t want any bad news — any bad news, about anything — to get out, because they felt it would hurt morale and hurt the war effort. So, Spain was writing about it. The Spanish king got sick. Celebrity culture, then as now, got a lot of attention, and it became known as Spanish flu.
In the United States, there was no Tony Fauci. Even national public health leaders were saying this is ordinary influenza by another name, for the reasons they were trying to maintain morale. But nobody was calling it a hoax in 1918. The virus was much more lethal than what we’re facing now. If you see your neighbor die 24 hours after their first symptom, you know perfectly well it’s not a hoax. All that happened as a result of this, the lying that was going on, was that people lost all trust. It spread fear — terror, in some cases. And in the worst places, society actually began to fray. And people died who otherwise would have survived if they had been told the truth, if they had been able to recognize early on, from the very beginning, how serious it was, and take some measures to protect yourself — themselves.
And those measures are exactly what people recommend today: social distancing, mask wearing, wash your hands — exactly the same things. We know that they are effective. You know, as I was saying earlier, Italy got its cases down to 200 a day; Germany, roughly 400 a day, in country significantly larger than Italy. Most of Europe has the disease well under control at this point. And, of course, in Asia, the numbers are even smaller. Vietnam, which shares a border with China, hasn’t recorded a single death. Not one. So, public health measures work. But you have to do them. We have not done them in the United States, or too many people have not done them in the United States.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, Professor Barry, meanwhile, here, in Florida, one of the states where cases are rising, one in three children — that is, 31%, almost one in three children — have tested positive now in Florida, and health officials are concerned that there might actually — it’s too early to tell. We can’t say with any degree of certainty that children will not be affected long-term by getting the virus.
JOHN BARRY: Right.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: But I want to go to another — you made the case, in March, that there was no indication that COVID-19 will become more virulent than it is now.
JOHN BARRY: Right.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: But you did say that it’s going to come in several waves and become endemic. Is there still — I mean, that was three-and-a-half months ago, when it first began, it spread here. Is it still the case, does the latest research still confirm, that COVID-19 won’t become more virulent?
JOHN BARRY: Right. The 1918 virus was pretty mild, quite mild, in the first wave and then turned very lethal. But there is not the slightest sign anywhere that that is going to be the case with COVID-19. There have been some mutations that suggest it’s actually maybe more contagious, but not more virulent, so — thankfully. It’s bad enough as it is.
And as you say, we’re not sure what the long-term implications are, whether there will be complications or some damage to the body that does not recover or takes a very long time to recover from. We just don’t know. It’s too new a virus.
AMY GOODMAN: John Barry, we want to thank you so much for being with us, professor at the Tulane University School of Public Health and Tropical Medicine, author of, among many books, The Great Influenza: The Story of the Deadliest Pandemic in History. We’ll link to your pieces in The New York Times, the latest, “The Pandemic Could Get Much, Much Worse. We Must Act Now.”
That does it for our show. I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh. Stay safe.