democracynow--2020-08-24--Steve Bannon, Former Trump Adviser, Allegedly Stole Funds for Private Border Wall Plagued by Erosion

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
We ’ re breaking with convention .
I ’ m Amy Goodman .
As the Republican National Convention begins this week , a sixth close associate of President Trump now faces criminal charges by the Department of Justice .
Trump ’ s former campaign manager , chief strategist , Steve Bannon , is accused of defrauding donors to a private effort to build a wall along the Mexican border .
He was arrested Thursday by U.S. postal @ @ @ @ @ @ @ $ 28 million yacht off the coast of Connecticut .
An indictment by the Southern District of New York alleges Bannon and three others at the nonprofit We Build the Wall siphoned hundreds of thousands of dollars of donations into their own pockets to support their lavish lifestyles .
Bannon had promoted the group as a volunteer organization .
One of the biggest donors to the project was a 7-year-old boy , who set up a hot chocolate stand and raised as much as $ 28,000 .
Bannon pleaded not guilty Thursday and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ bond .
At the White House , reporters asked Trump about the charges .
AMY GOODMAN : Meanwhile , on CBS Face the Nation Sunday , former FBI Director James Comey , who used to head the Southern District of New York , which filed the charges , said Bannon is in a , quote , “ world of trouble.
” AMY GOODMAN : Facing charges along with Bannon is We Build the Wall founder Brian Kolfage , an Iraq War veteran who was awarded a Purple Heart , lost his legs in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the case , quote , “ should serve as a warning to other fraudsters that no one is above the law , not even a disabled war veteran or a millionaire political strategist , ” unquote .
Not charged is Fisher Industries CEO Tommy Fisher , who was contracted to build the three-mile stretch of wall for the group directly along the banks of the Rio Grande , near Mission , Texas , near the Mexico border , as a showcase project .
Fisher went on to secure $ 1.7 billion in federal @ @ @ @ @ @ @ building the , quote , “ Lamborghini ” of walls .
But an investigation by ProPublica last month shows the private wall project is already eroding and could be in danger of falling into the river .
Their story prompted Trump to tweet on July 12th , quote , “ I disagreed with doing this very small ( tiny ) section of wall , in a tricky area , by a private group which raised money by ads .
It was only done to make me look bad , ” he said .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ a dramatic showdown , when the Trump administration ousted Geoffrey Berman , the U.S. attorney at the Southern District of New York , whose office went on to file these charges against Bannon .
Well , for more , we ’ re joined by two reporters with ProPublica and The Texas Tribune investigative unit who worked on the story .
In one of their reports , We Build the Wall ’ s founder Brian Kolfage actually bragged about his ties to Trump .
In Houston , we ’ re joined by Perla Trevizo @ @ @ @ @ @ @ re joined by Lexi Churchill .
We welcome you both to Democracy Now !
Lexi , let ’ s begin with you .
Explain what took place on Thursday , the significance of these charges against Bannon and three others .
LEXI CHURCHILL : Yeah , definitely .
And thanks so much for having me .
So , as you said , the U.S. Southern District of New York is charging these four men , who have been involved with the group to varying degrees , with conspiracy to commit wire fraud , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as you stated , the indictment is very in-depth about , you know , the manner in which that they have used an unnamed nonprofit to wire a portion of the money that this group raised last year , through public funds and public donors , to use as their own personal means .
And that , in part , went to a boat called the Warfighter , that has been spread widely and shared widely on the CEO Brian Kolfage ’ s Instagram .
And , you know , this is really @ @ @ @ @ @ @ because we started our reporting with the main question as to answer : Where has this money been going ?
And it doesn ’ t answer that as a whole , but it does give us some insight into where part of this has been going .
And , you know , the little that we know about it is that this group initially raised around $ 25 million , and they had used around $ 6 million to $ 8 million on the first project that they did , and only about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ project that was their second one , that we have reported on , as you stated earlier .
So , that just doesn ’ t quite add up to the $ 25 million .
And this indictment has given us some insight into where some of that money has gone , that we have not been able to find out .
AMY GOODMAN : The timing of this is just unbelievable .
I mean , you have Barr pushing out Geoffrey Berman .
He did not expect the pushback from Berman , not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ guy he wanted to as the U.S. attorney .
And then immediately you have Trump saying something about this project , that he doesn ’ t support it .
This is at the time they couldn ’ t shape the prosecutor ’ s office in the way they wanted to , and clearly this prosecution was moving ahead — not clear if Barr was trying to stop this prosecution — so that when Bannon was arrested , Trump said , “ You can look at my comments weeks ago .
I was against @ @ @ @ @ @ @ when they weren ’ t able to put the people in they wanted to in the U.S. Attorney ’ s Office .
LEXI CHURCHILL : Yeah .
And as you mentioned , the president had tweeted about a month ago , after our initial reporting on the state of how this actual project is standing up , which is not great , that he did not like this project , he did not support it .
And he furthered those comments , trying to distance himself on Thursday , when asked about it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is a clear connection between the president and this group .
Of course , Steve Bannon , his former campaign adviser and a White House adviser for some period of time , there ’ s no severaging that relationship .
He ’ s also been involved with former Secretary of State Kris Kobach of Kansas for several years , and he served as the group ’ s general counsel , actually , and another outspoken advocate .
We have done some reporting that has also connected the president to members of the group @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Kolfage , who last year in an interview said that they had a direct connection to the president , through Kris Kobach and others , and that he approved of what they were doing , and they supported it .
Amanda Shea , the company CEO — CFO , sorry , also posted a photo with Trump last year , saying that she was able to meet with him and speak extensively about the project and that he had even told her that they should bid for the whole wall .
AMY GOODMAN @ @ @ @ @ @ @ very important point that Kris Kobach — yes , the former Kansas secretary of state , fierce anti-immigrant activist , prominent Trump supporter — serving as the adviser , as you said , to We Build the Wall , who said , “ I talked with the president , and the We Build the Wall effort came up , ” Kobach told The New York Times .
“ The president said , 'The project has my blessing , and you can tell the media that . '
” So , Trump is singing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Now , while the media covered this — you know , this is extremely significant , Bannon being arrested — I wanted to turn to Perla Trevizo , who is on the ground there in Texas , because what the media didn ’ t cover as much is what this wall is .
What did get built ?
What happened to it , Perla ?
PERLA TREVIZO : Yeah , so , again , thank you for having us .
So , very little had been built .
They had built roughly half @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and in New Mexico last year .
That was on private land .
And then , that was fully — as Lexi said , that was fully funded by We Build the Wall , which was up to $ 8 million , according to reports .
And then , the further west in — east in Texas , they built roughly three miles along the river , which is the portion of the private wall that we ’ ve been focusing on .
And that project was mostly funded by Fisher , which @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , with support from We Build the Wall .
And so , initially , We Build the Wall touted that as their second project , after our story , and Mr. Trump tweeted that he disagreed with the project .
He initially tried to distance himself from the project , saying that was not their wall , it was Fisher ’ s project , they just had — they had just donated to it .
And then , ultimately , they went back and did say that , you know , it was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was fine , and went back to kind of owning that project or their contribution or support to that project .
PERLA TREVIZO : So , Tommy Fisher is the CEO of Fisher Industries and a lot of subsidiaries .
He ’ s a builder who , for a while , was trying to get border wall contracts , and he was not getting anywhere .
And then he started appearing on conservative media outlets and kind of , you know , trying to get to the president , they say .
And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Wall to build the Sunland Park , New Mexico , segment and then the one in Texas .
And they say that they wanted to show the government how the private industry could build the border wall much better than the government .
You know , while the government had not been able to build right along the river , they would show them how it could be done much cheaper and faster .
And so , critics say that he used those projects as kind of a showcase project to then tout @ @ @ @ @ @ @ contracts that you mentioned earlier .
Since our stories , he ’ s now gotten a couple more , so now it ’ s closer to $ 2 billion in federal contracts for border wall fencing , most of that in Arizona .
AMY GOODMAN : Again , how much Fisher ’ s gotten ?
PERLA TREVIZO : Two billion .
His company has also been awarded the largest contract ever for a border wall , which was $ 1.28 billion , almost $ 1.3 billion .
And two of them , including @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have been awarded while an IG investigation or audit is ongoing .
So , after he got the first border wall contract for $ 400 million , Congressman Bennie Thompson called for a DOD audit of that contract to ensure that there had not been undue influence or improper influence from the Trump administration .
And that ’ s still ongoing .
AMY GOODMAN : And talk about the wall part that was built and the environmental regulations that were gotten around , and what this means in the area .
PERLA TREVIZO @ @ @ @ @ @ @ one in South Texas , it ’ s a very tricky area , even as Mr. Trump said .
So , it ’ s very close to the river .
And there is a reason why there ’ s not a lot of border wall building going on there .
Usually the government builds further inland on a levee , which has caused its own problems , because you end up dissecting properties , farmland , even cemeteries .
And so , this segment of the three miles of the wall is built @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , which experts have told us you ’ re always going to have a problem with erosion .
And soon after Mr. Fisher completed his roughly three miles , you started seeing little gullies and gashes in different areas of the fence .
And , you know , to be clear , Mr. Fisher and his attorney have both dismissed those concerns , said that there ’ s normal part of erosion after you have a project like that , and that they ’ ll continue to fix it and be responsible for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Hannah is that those gullies and gashes became huge cracks .
In some instances , it was waist deep .
You know , I describe in the story .
You kind of see like deep veins going into the river .
And what our experts , hydrologists and engineers , tell us is that the problem is that you can — it can become — destabilize the foundation of the fence .
And it ’ s not that it might fall tomorrow , but if this continues , because of the sand and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ under — you know , on the bank , that you could have segments of it topple into the river , which can cause a lot of problems .
And I ’ ll just add , as well , that area is controlled by a binational commission , boundary commission , because you want to make sure that whatever you do on either side of the U.S. or Mexico border is not going to impact the other side .
So , in this case , they have found that at least one segment @ @ @ @ @ @ @ much water onto the Mexican side when there ’ s flooding .
And so , that ’ s also currently being litigated .
AMY GOODMAN : I also want to talk about other people involved with this , whether or not they ’ re indicted .
Last year , Al Jazeera English host Mehdi Hasan interviewed Erik Prince , the founder of the mercenary firm Blackwater .
Prince defended his involvement in the We Build the Wall fundraising project .
This is Hasan questioning Erik Prince .
AMY GOODMAN : So , that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
On a 2019 live-streaming fundraiser , Steve Bannon , who was indicted , joked Brian Kolfage was embezzling the wall money .
AMY GOODMAN : So , there you have Brian Kolfage and Steve Bannon , both indicted .
Let ’ s end with Lexi Churchill .
The significance of what they are saying , and , before that , Erik Prince , the founder of Blackwater ?
LEXI CHURCHILL : Yeah , yeah .
I mean , it is very startling to joke about something like that , that is now @ @ @ @ @ @ @ facing charges for .
And I guess what I ’ d like to end on is , you know , this has been the outstanding question , and because of how the group is structured as a nonprofit corporation , you know , we have not had a lot of these answers about where the money is going and what it has been used for so far .
And when we reached out to Brian Kolfage about this , he said that we would need to wait for those answers to come in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ report , a 990 or version of it .
So , we are eagerly awaiting that to see what further information we ’ ll be able to learn .
AMY GOODMAN : So , finally , what happens to this wall that was already built , now that these men have been indicted ?
And you ’ ve got Fisher Industries , again , Tommy Fisher , getting something like $ 2 billion to build the wall .
Fisher Industries , the two other brothers , David and Michael , one was put @ @ @ @ @ @ @ other went to jail for environmental and workplace violations , among other things , and not paying taxes , etc.
?
LEXI CHURCHILL : Yeah , yeah .
That ’ s a good question .
And it ’ s worth noting that Fisher Industries does have a history of violations , like the ones you mentioned , a lot — EPA environmental violation regulations , as well as MSHA workplace safety regulations .
And , you know , I think the biggest thing is that this investigation is still ongoing into the initial @ @ @ @ @ @ @ from the federal government , and we ’ re waiting to see what the results of that were , as well , if there was any undue influences , Perla mentioned earlier .
AMY GOODMAN : Well , as you will , we will continue to follow this , of course .
We want to thank Lexi Churchill and Perla Trevizo , the reporters with the ProPublica-Texas Tribune investigative unit .
And we ’ ll link to your pieces , “ Nonprofit that financed a private border wall is now the focus of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ look at President Trump ’ s embrace of the far-right QAnon conspiracy theory , ahead of today ’ s Republican National Convention .
While the FBI sees QAnon as a domestic terrorist threat , Trump has taken a different approach .
Stay with us .
AMY GOODMAN : Justin Townes Earle .
It was announced last night that Justin Townes Earle has passed away at the age of 38 .
He ’ s the son of the great folksinger Steve Earle .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now! We’re breaking with convention. I’m Amy Goodman.
As the Republican National Convention begins this week, a sixth close associate of President Trump now faces criminal charges by the Department of Justice. Trump’s former campaign manager, chief strategist, Steve Bannon, is accused of defrauding donors to a private effort to build a wall along the Mexican border. He was arrested Thursday by U.S. postal police aboard a Chinese billionaire’s $28 million yacht off the coast of Connecticut.
An indictment by the Southern District of New York alleges Bannon and three others at the nonprofit We Build the Wall siphoned hundreds of thousands of dollars of donations into their own pockets to support their lavish lifestyles. Bannon had promoted the group as a volunteer organization. One of the biggest donors to the project was a 7-year-old boy, who set up a hot chocolate stand and raised as much as $28,000. Bannon pleaded not guilty Thursday and was released after posting $5 million bond.
At the White House, reporters asked Trump about the charges.
REPORTER: What’s your reaction to the indictment of your former campaign aide, Steve Bannon?
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I haven’t been dealing with him at all. I know nothing about the project, other than I didn’t like — when I read about it, I didn’t like it. I said, “This is for government; this isn’t for private people.” And it sounded to me like showboating. And I think I let my opinion be very strongly stated at the time. I didn’t like it. It was showboating and maybe looking for funds. But you’ll have to see what happens. I think it’s a very sad thing for Mr. Bannon. I think it’s surprising.
AMY GOODMAN: Meanwhile, on CBS Face the Nation Sunday, former FBI Director James Comey, who used to head the Southern District of New York, which filed the charges, said Bannon is in a, quote, “world of trouble.”
JAMES COMEY: It’s a very serious fraud case with a huge amount of money stolen from innocent victims, Americans who thought they were giving money to support the president’s wall on the Mexican border, and instead it was stolen. That will drive up the potential punishments for Mr. Bannon and his co-conspirators. And you know he’s in trouble, because the indictment lays it out in such detail, including excerpts from texts. If you’re Steve Bannon, you’re his lawyers, you’re reading this, saying, “I’m going down here.”
AMY GOODMAN: Facing charges along with Bannon is We Build the Wall founder Brian Kolfage, an Iraq War veteran who was awarded a Purple Heart, lost his legs in Iraq. The Postal Inspection Service said the case, quote, “should serve as a warning to other fraudsters that no one is above the law, not even a disabled war veteran or a millionaire political strategist,” unquote.
Not charged is Fisher Industries CEO Tommy Fisher, who was contracted to build the three-mile stretch of wall for the group directly along the banks of the Rio Grande, near Mission, Texas, near the Mexico border, as a showcase project. Fisher went on to secure $1.7 billion in federal border wall contracts and claimed he was building the, quote, “Lamborghini” of walls. But an investigation by ProPublica last month shows the private wall project is already eroding and could be in danger of falling into the river. Their story prompted Trump to tweet on July 12th, quote, “I disagreed with doing this very small (tiny) section of wall, in a tricky area, by a private group which raised money by ads. It was only done to make me look bad,” he said. This was around the same time of a dramatic showdown, when the Trump administration ousted Geoffrey Berman, the U.S. attorney at the Southern District of New York, whose office went on to file these charges against Bannon.
Well, for more, we’re joined by two reporters with ProPublica and The Texas Tribune investigative unit who worked on the story. In one of their reports, We Build the Wall’s founder Brian Kolfage actually bragged about his ties to Trump. In Houston, we’re joined by Perla Trevizo, and in Austin, we’re joined by Lexi Churchill.
We welcome you both to Democracy Now! Lexi, let’s begin with you. Explain what took place on Thursday, the significance of these charges against Bannon and three others.
LEXI CHURCHILL: Yeah, definitely. And thanks so much for having me.
So, as you said, the U.S. Southern District of New York is charging these four men, who have been involved with the group to varying degrees, with conspiracy to commit wire fraud, as well as money laundering. And as you stated, the indictment is very in-depth about, you know, the manner in which that they have used an unnamed nonprofit to wire a portion of the money that this group raised last year, through public funds and public donors, to use as their own personal means. And that, in part, went to a boat called the Warfighter, that has been spread widely and shared widely on the CEO Brian Kolfage’s Instagram.
And, you know, this is really just — it’s interesting, because we started our reporting with the main question as to answer: Where has this money been going? And it doesn’t answer that as a whole, but it does give us some insight into where part of this has been going. And, you know, the little that we know about it is that this group initially raised around $25 million, and they had used around $6 million to $8 million on the first project that they did, and only about 5% of a $42 million project that was their second one, that we have reported on, as you stated earlier. So, that just doesn’t quite add up to the $25 million. And this indictment has given us some insight into where some of that money has gone, that we have not been able to find out.
AMY GOODMAN: The timing of this is just unbelievable. I mean, you have Barr pushing out Geoffrey Berman. He did not expect the pushback from Berman, not then being able to put in the guy he wanted to as the U.S. attorney. And then immediately you have Trump saying something about this project, that he doesn’t support it. This is at the time they couldn’t shape the prosecutor’s office in the way they wanted to, and clearly this prosecution was moving ahead — not clear if Barr was trying to stop this prosecution — so that when Bannon was arrested, Trump said, “You can look at my comments weeks ago. I was against this project.” But it was only when they weren’t able to put the people in they wanted to in the U.S. Attorney’s Office.
LEXI CHURCHILL: Yeah. And as you mentioned, the president had tweeted about a month ago, after our initial reporting on the state of how this actual project is standing up, which is not great, that he did not like this project, he did not support it. And he furthered those comments, trying to distance himself on Thursday, when asked about it.
But, you know, there is a clear connection between the president and this group. Of course, Steve Bannon, his former campaign adviser and a White House adviser for some period of time, there’s no severaging that relationship. He’s also been involved with former Secretary of State Kris Kobach of Kansas for several years, and he served as the group’s general counsel, actually, and another outspoken advocate.
We have done some reporting that has also connected the president to members of the group itself, including the CEO, Brian Kolfage, who last year in an interview said that they had a direct connection to the president, through Kris Kobach and others, and that he approved of what they were doing, and they supported it. Amanda Shea, the company CEO — CFO, sorry, also posted a photo with Trump last year, saying that she was able to meet with him and speak extensively about the project and that he had even told her that they should bid for the whole wall.
AMY GOODMAN: I mean, you have this very important point that Kris Kobach — yes, the former Kansas secretary of state, fierce anti-immigrant activist, prominent Trump supporter — serving as the adviser, as you said, to We Build the Wall, who said, “I talked with the president, and the We Build the Wall effort came up,” Kobach told The New York Times. “The president said, 'The project has my blessing, and you can tell the media that.'” So, Trump is singing a very different tune right now.
Now, while the media covered this — you know, this is extremely significant, Bannon being arrested — I wanted to turn to Perla Trevizo, who is on the ground there in Texas, because what the media didn’t cover as much is what this wall is. What did get built? What happened to it, Perla?
PERLA TREVIZO: Yeah, so, again, thank you for having us.
So, very little had been built. They had built roughly half a mile, west of El Paso and in New Mexico last year. That was on private land. And then, that was fully — as Lexi said, that was fully funded by We Build the Wall, which was up to $8 million, according to reports. And then, the further west in — east in Texas, they built roughly three miles along the river, which is the portion of the private wall that we’ve been focusing on. And that project was mostly funded by Fisher, which is the CEO that you mentioned previously, with support from We Build the Wall.
And so, initially, We Build the Wall touted that as their second project, after our story, and Mr. Trump tweeted that he disagreed with the project. He initially tried to distance himself from the project, saying that was not their wall, it was Fisher’s project, they just had — they had just donated to it. And then, ultimately, they went back and did say that, you know, it was actually fake media reports, and everything was fine, and went back to kind of owning that project or their contribution or support to that project.
AMY GOODMAN: And Fisher is, Perla?
PERLA TREVIZO: So, Tommy Fisher is the CEO of Fisher Industries and a lot of subsidiaries. He’s a builder who, for a while, was trying to get border wall contracts, and he was not getting anywhere. And then he started appearing on conservative media outlets and kind of, you know, trying to get to the president, they say. And so he partnered with We Build a Wall to build the Sunland Park, New Mexico, segment and then the one in Texas. And they say that they wanted to show the government how the private industry could build the border wall much better than the government. You know, while the government had not been able to build right along the river, they would show them how it could be done much cheaper and faster. And so, critics say that he used those projects as kind of a showcase project to then tout to the administration and get the government contracts that you mentioned earlier. Since our stories, he’s now gotten a couple more, so now it’s closer to $2 billion in federal contracts for border wall fencing, most of that in Arizona.
AMY GOODMAN: Again, how much Fisher’s gotten?
PERLA TREVIZO: Now it’s about $2 billion.
AMY GOODMAN: Two billion?
PERLA TREVIZO: Two billion. His company has also been awarded the largest contract ever for a border wall, which was $1.28 billion, almost $1.3 billion. And two of them, including that one that I just mentioned, have been awarded while an IG investigation or audit is ongoing. So, after he got the first border wall contract for $400 million, Congressman Bennie Thompson called for a DOD audit of that contract to ensure that there had not been undue influence or improper influence from the Trump administration. And that’s still ongoing.
AMY GOODMAN: And talk about the wall part that was built and the environmental regulations that were gotten around, and what this means in the area.
PERLA TREVIZO: Yeah, so, especially the one in South Texas, it’s a very tricky area, even as Mr. Trump said. So, it’s very close to the river. And there is a reason why there’s not a lot of border wall building going on there. Usually the government builds further inland on a levee, which has caused its own problems, because you end up dissecting properties, farmland, even cemeteries. And so, this segment of the three miles of the wall is built very, very close to the river, which experts have told us you’re always going to have a problem with erosion.
And soon after Mr. Fisher completed his roughly three miles, you started seeing little gullies and gashes in different areas of the fence. And, you know, to be clear, Mr. Fisher and his attorney have both dismissed those concerns, said that there’s normal part of erosion after you have a project like that, and that they’ll continue to fix it and be responsible for it. But what we saw after Hannah is that those gullies and gashes became huge cracks. In some instances, it was waist deep. You know, I describe in the story. You kind of see like deep veins going into the river. And what our experts, hydrologists and engineers, tell us is that the problem is that you can — it can become — destabilize the foundation of the fence. And it’s not that it might fall tomorrow, but if this continues, because of the sand and because of the kind of loamy sand under — you know, on the bank, that you could have segments of it topple into the river, which can cause a lot of problems.
And I’ll just add, as well, that area is controlled by a binational commission, boundary commission, because you want to make sure that whatever you do on either side of the U.S. or Mexico border is not going to impact the other side. So, in this case, they have found that at least one segment of the three-mile fence can deflect too much water onto the Mexican side when there’s flooding. And so, that’s also currently being litigated.
AMY GOODMAN: I also want to talk about other people involved with this, whether or not they’re indicted. Last year, Al Jazeera English host Mehdi Hasan interviewed Erik Prince, the founder of the mercenary firm Blackwater. Prince defended his involvement in the We Build the Wall fundraising project. This is Hasan questioning Erik Prince.
MEHDI HASAN: You are part of a group of high-profile Trump supporters, including Steve Bannon, Sheriff David Clarke and others, who are planning on raising private money to build a wall along the U.S.-Mexico border. You even have a GoFundMe page. What I don’t get, though, is, I’m pretty sure I heard Donald Trump say that Mexico would be paying for the wall.
ERIK PRINCE: Don’t discount Mexico actually paying for the wall.
MEHDI HASAN: I think most of us have, but yes?
ERIK PRINCE: The last chapter is not written on that, mark my words.
MEHDI HASAN: So, Mexico will pay for the wall. So, then, why are you fundraising?
ERIK PRINCE: Look, there’s — there —
MEHDI HASAN: You can’t have it both ways: “Mexico will pay for the wall, but I’m going to raise money.”
ERIK PRINCE: There —
MEHDI HASAN: Which one?
ERIK PRINCE: Because people are frustrated. They’re sick of not having —
MEHDI HASAN: They’re frustrated that the president can’t get Mexico to pay for the wall, two years into his presidency.
AMY GOODMAN: So, that’s Mehdi Hasan questioning Erik Prince. On a 2019 live-streaming fundraiser, Steve Bannon, who was indicted, joked Brian Kolfage was embezzling the wall money.
ANNOUNCER: Stephen K. Bannon and Brian Kolfage.
STEPHEN BANNON: Welcome back. This is Stephen K. Bannon. We’re off the coast of Saint-Tropez in southern France in the Mediterranean. We’re on the million-dollar yacht of Brian Kolfage. And Brian Kolfage, he took all that money from Build the Wall. No, we’re actually in Sunland Park, New Mexico.
AMY GOODMAN: So, there you have Brian Kolfage and Steve Bannon, both indicted. Let’s end with Lexi Churchill. The significance of what they are saying, and, before that, Erik Prince, the founder of Blackwater?
LEXI CHURCHILL: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it is very startling to joke about something like that, that is now true and that they’re now facing charges for.
And I guess what I’d like to end on is, you know, this has been the outstanding question, and because of how the group is structured as a nonprofit corporation, you know, we have not had a lot of these answers about where the money is going and what it has been used for so far. And when we reached out to Brian Kolfage about this, he said that we would need to wait for those answers to come in, once the group filed their annual report, a 990 or version of it. So, we are eagerly awaiting that to see what further information we’ll be able to learn.
AMY GOODMAN: So, finally, what happens to this wall that was already built, now that these men have been indicted? And you’ve got Fisher Industries, again, Tommy Fisher, getting something like $2 billion to build the wall. Fisher Industries, the two other brothers, David and Michael, one was put in prison for child pornography; the other went to jail for environmental and workplace violations, among other things, and not paying taxes, etc.?
LEXI CHURCHILL: Yeah, yeah. That’s a good question. And it’s worth noting that Fisher Industries does have a history of violations, like the ones you mentioned, a lot — EPA environmental violation regulations, as well as MSHA workplace safety regulations. And, you know, I think the biggest thing is that this investigation is still ongoing into the initial contract they received for $400 million from the federal government, and we’re waiting to see what the results of that were, as well, if there was any undue influences, Perla mentioned earlier.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, as you will, we will continue to follow this, of course. We want to thank Lexi Churchill and Perla Trevizo, the reporters with the ProPublica-Texas Tribune investigative unit. And we’ll link to your pieces, “Nonprofit that financed a private border wall is now the focus of a corruption case.”
Next, we look at President Trump’s embrace of the far-right QAnon conspiracy theory, ahead of today’s Republican National Convention. While the FBI sees QAnon as a domestic terrorist threat, Trump has taken a different approach. Stay with us.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: Justin Townes Earle. It was announced last night that Justin Townes Earle has passed away at the age of 38. He’s the son of the great folksinger Steve Earle.


democracynow--2020-08-24--"The Damage Has Been Done": Historian Says Trump's Postmaster Has Undermined Faith in 2020 Election

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : The battle over the future of the U.S .
Postal Service is intensifying .
For weeks , Democrats have accused the Trump administration and the new postmaster general , Louis DeJoy , of sabotaging the Postal Service in the lead-up to the election , when a record number of mail-in ballots are expected to be cast .
On Saturday , the Democrat-led House approved a bill to give the Postal Service $ 25 billion and to stop DeJoy from making more changes @ @ @ @ @ @ @ already led to long delays in processing and delivering mail .
This is Democratic Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib of Michigan .
AMY GOODMAN : Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell is refusing to take up the House bill .
DeJoy , who is a major donor to Trump , is testifying before the House Oversight Committee today .
Saturday ’ s vote came on the same day protests were held at over 800 post offices across the country to condemn the actions of DeJoy , who became postmaster general in June and still holds investments @ @ @ @ @ @ @ assets in competitors to the U.S. post office or contractors with it .
During a Senate hearing Friday , DeJoy claimed the cost-cutting measures he ’ s implemented have nothing to do with the election , and said the Postal Service is , quote , “ fully capable ” of delivering mail-in ballots on time .
Senator Gary Peters of Michigan questioned DeJoy about his refusal to restore recently disconnected mail sorting machines .
AMY GOODMAN : While Postmaster DeJoy is refusing to reconnect the sorting machines , postal workers in Dallas , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have defied orders and reconnected the machines .
This all comes as more questions are being raised over the role of Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin in the post office shake-up .
The New York Times reports Mnuchin met with two Republican members of the Postal Service ’ s Board of Governors in early February and pressed them to select a postmaster general to push Trump ’ s agenda .
We ’ re joined now by Philip Rubio , history professor at North Carolina A & T State University , author of Undelivered : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to the Manufactured Crisis of the U.S .
Postal Service .
Prior to becoming a history professor , Rubio carried mail for the Postal Service for 20 years .
It ’ s great to have you with us , Professor Rubio .
PHILIP RUBIO : Thank you for having me .
AMY GOODMAN : If you can talk about the latest developments , the Senate hearing on Friday , the bill that was passed , and what ’ s expected to happen today with the House hearing ?
This isn ’ t just @ @ @ @ @ @ @ post office of making it difficult or delaying the mail so that mail ballots won ’ t get in on time .
That was clearly stated by the post office itself , saying that they did not think they would be able to handle all this mail , though DeJoy told a very different story when he testified before the Senate Friday .
PHILIP RUBIO : That ’ s correct .
And this postmaster general really does have a credibility problem .
He came into office just two months ago with claims that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a business and correct past inefficiencies , and he was going to , first of all , clean house , replacing 23 senior management positions and cutting overtime , banning late leaving from mail processing plants and also from stations — so , slowing the mail down , in effect — and , added to that , pulling up thousands of blue mail collection boxes and decommissioning these mail sorting machines , and then denying that , and then admitting that but saying it ’ s not had that much of an effect @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
I think he ’ s demoralized postal workers .
I think he has discouraged a lot of voters who are hoping to vote by mail , to vote safely and securely because of the pandemic .
And he has also made , I think , people , as postal consumers , discouraged by promising that he will resume decommissioning these machines and these other policies of his after the election .
AMY GOODMAN : Have you seen anything like this before ?
For example , the post office in Tacoma , Washington @ @ @ @ @ @ @ letter sorting machines that were disconnected under orders from the postmaster general ?
PHILIP RUBIO : Well , I can ’ t think of anything like that .
But we have to remember , on the one hand , these are isolated incidents , but , on the other hand , they are revealing of what postal workers have always done in the past — taken measures into their own hands — and it ’ s a promise of what might happen in the future .
That is , postal workers — because @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are really the heart of what I would call the service culture that ’ s still alive in the post office — OK ?
— as opposed to the business culture of just trying to cut costs .
And so , to actually take a risk at being fired for insubordination , you know , to plugging those machines back in , we might see — that takes a great effort , and we might see something like postal workers defying bans on overtime to make sure that ballots get through .
AMY @ @ @ @ @ @ @ David C. Williams , the former Postal Service inspector general , former vice chair of the Postal Board of Governors .
In his opening remarks to the House Progressive Caucus last week , Williams criticized Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin .
AMY GOODMAN : Can you respond to that , Professor Philip Rubio ?
PHILIP RUBIO : Well , David C. Williams was the watchdog , and he was one of two watchdogs , the other being Ronald Stroman , who also — well , he resigned under pressure .
So , they were @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and they both resigned because they saw it being politicized .
You know , the Postal Service , or the post office , that we ’ ve had around for 245 years , most of that time was a political institution , but we didn ’ t see that kind of partisan intervention — well , of course , with the exception of Andrew Jackson and the spoils system with hiring , but as far as manipulating the Postal Service and driving it into the ground .
So , I ’ m glad @ @ @ @ @ @ @ m glad to see Ron Stroman , former Board of Governors member , testifying .
AMY GOODMAN : Are you surprised that — with the enormous response across the country , the outcry , with the Postal Service having like a 91 % positive rating , which delivers drugs , pharmaceuticals to veterans , to people who aren ’ t veterans , so relied on — I mean , the VA now looking for alternatives to the USPS because they ’ re concerned , you know , drugs won ’ t get to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are you concerned the damage has already been done , but surprised that DeJoy would say , “ OK , we ’ ll hold off on changes until after the election ” ?
Now , that ’ s really something , because it ’ s saying to people all across the country , if you stick with this administration , we ’ re going to gut the post office then .
PHILIP RUBIO : No , but I ’ m not surprised by anything that Postmaster General DeJoy is saying , because , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ people what he thinks they want to hear .
And right now the outrage has forced him to back down , but he is making promises that he will resume essentially dismantling the Postal Service , which was instituted in 1971 after the great postal strike of 1970 , and the idea being we ’ re going to create a nonpolitical institution and it ’ s going to be a hybrid government agency/business .
What he assumes that he was given was a mandate to take it further in the business direction .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ ironically , both he and Trump , I think , have dramatized how — the perils of postal privatization and partisan intervention and driving our post office into the ground , that we don ’ t have to accept this , that we shouldn ’ t have to accept this , we shouldn ’ t have to take it .
I ’ m not surprised that there has been popular protest , popular outrage , because that ’ s something that people learned from the springtime with the George Floyd protests .
And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ getting their medications , when you see people not getting their mail on time , of course they ’ re going to speak up .
And they ’ ve learned that protests can change things .
And I think that ’ s forced Congress to be — well , I should say , it ’ s encouraged Democrats in Congress to put this on the agenda .
But it ’ s still not enough .
What Democrats in the House and Senate are doing is the best they can do to keep putting @ @ @ @ @ @ @ forward , that the American people will hopefully respond to .
AMY GOODMAN : President Trump tweeted — I ’ m going to go back and look at what he tweeted — on Sunday , “ So now the Democrats are using Mail Drop Boxes , which are a voter security disaster .
Among other things , they make it possible for a person to vote multiple times .
Also , who controls them , are they placed in Republican or Democrat areas ?
They are not Covid sanitized .
A big fraud @ @ @ @ @ @ @ tweet for violating Twitter rules about civic and election integrity .
He is suggesting you will get COVID if you drop your ballot into a ballot box .
PHILIP RUBIO : So , this is just more distraction that Trump and his administration are doing , as they ’ ve done around so many other issues , but around the Postal Service .
And what is gratifying is to see that lots and lots of people , including politicians , are pushing back against that , are not being satisfied with DeJoy ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s claims .
But what all of this does is to — what it ’ s intended to do is to distract and discourage .
And what we have to do as individuals , as well as a collective body , is to remember that we do have a right to vote .
We have a right to vote safely .
The Postal Service is mandated to provide universal service , whatever that service is , even if more than half of us vote by mail , to make sure that enough overtime @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are deployed , to get all those ballots counted , for people to register and vote early , to vote in person if they feel safe enough doing that , but to vote and to keep putting pressure on the postmaster general .
AMY GOODMAN : And can anything legally be done ?
I mean , you ’ ve got the bill that was passed in the House , now the House hearing today .
Not clear what will happen in the Senate , though it doesn ’ t look like Mitch McConnell @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is bipartisan attack on Trump and DeJoy — of course , it starts at the top — for going after the Postal Service , so much so that Trump inexplicably , after attacking it for so long , sent out a tweet last week saying , ” SAVE THE POST OFFICE !
” He just didn ’ t write “ from me , ” from himself .
PHILIP RUBIO : Right .
And he and his wife and other administration members also vote by mail , and they are also encouraging Republicans to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you vote , people need to remember that they do have a right to vote , and they do have the right to expect that the postmaster general , who — even though it ’ s not a very strong political position , has a lot of power and can reverse these policy changes and can also work better with the states to make sure that the ballots are counted .
But in the end , it will probably come down to postal workers , who make sure that the mail does get @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
AMY GOODMAN : Well , Philip Rubio , I want to thank you for joining us .
Key that you said , “ just as we always did , ” because before being a historian , you were a U.S. postman for 20 years , now a history professor at North Carolina A & T State University , author of Undelivered : From the Great Postal Strike of 1970 to the Manufactured Crisis of the U.S .
Postal Service .
Next up , we ’ ll look at the arrest of Trump @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and others on fraud charges connected to the “ We Build the Wall ” effort .
We ’ ll find out what that is .
Stay with us .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: The battle over the future of the U.S. Postal Service is intensifying. For weeks, Democrats have accused the Trump administration and the new postmaster general, Louis DeJoy, of sabotaging the Postal Service in the lead-up to the election, when a record number of mail-in ballots are expected to be cast.
On Saturday, the Democrat-led House approved a bill to give the Postal Service $25 billion and to stop DeJoy from making more changes to the Postal Service, which have already led to long delays in processing and delivering mail. This is Democratic Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib of Michigan.
REP. RASHIDA TLAIB: Let it be clear: This administration is waging an authoritarian campaign to sabotage this election by manipulating the Postal Service to suppress our votes. And they are threatening the livelihood of our postal workers, our seniors, our veterans and so many more in the process. This is not a conspiracy theory; this is fascism. We will not stand for this, now or ever.
AMY GOODMAN: Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell is refusing to take up the House bill. DeJoy, who is a major donor to Trump, is testifying before the House Oversight Committee today.
Saturday’s vote came on the same day protests were held at over 800 post offices across the country to condemn the actions of DeJoy, who became postmaster general in June and still holds investments worth up to $75 million in assets in competitors to the U.S. post office or contractors with it.
During a Senate hearing Friday, DeJoy claimed the cost-cutting measures he’s implemented have nothing to do with the election, and said the Postal Service is, quote, “fully capable” of delivering mail-in ballots on time. Senator Gary Peters of Michigan questioned DeJoy about his refusal to restore recently disconnected mail sorting machines.
SEN. GARY PETERS: Will you be bringing back any mail sorting machines that have been removed since you’ve become postmaster general? Will any of those come back?
POSTMASTER GENERAL LOUIS DEJOY: There’s no intention to do that. They’re not needed, sir.
SEN. GARY PETERS: So, you will not bring back any processors?
POSTMASTER GENERAL LOUIS DEJOY: They’re not needed, sir.
AMY GOODMAN: While Postmaster DeJoy is refusing to reconnect the sorting machines, postal workers in Dallas, Texas, and Tacoma, Washington, have defied orders and reconnected the machines.
This all comes as more questions are being raised over the role of Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin in the post office shake-up. The New York Times reports Mnuchin met with two Republican members of the Postal Service’s Board of Governors in early February and pressed them to select a postmaster general to push Trump’s agenda.
We’re joined now by Philip Rubio, history professor at North Carolina A&T State University, author of Undelivered: From the Great Postal Strike of 1970 to the Manufactured Crisis of the U.S. Postal Service. Prior to becoming a history professor, Rubio carried mail for the Postal Service for 20 years.
It’s great to have you with us, Professor Rubio.
PHILIP RUBIO: Thank you for having me.
AMY GOODMAN: If you can talk about the latest developments, the Senate hearing on Friday, the bill that was passed, and what’s expected to happen today with the House hearing? This isn’t just Democrats accusing the White House and the post office of making it difficult or delaying the mail so that mail ballots won’t get in on time. That was clearly stated by the post office itself, saying that they did not think they would be able to handle all this mail, though DeJoy told a very different story when he testified before the Senate Friday.
PHILIP RUBIO: That’s correct. And this postmaster general really does have a credibility problem. He came into office just two months ago with claims that he was going to run it like a business and correct past inefficiencies, and he was going to, first of all, clean house, replacing 23 senior management positions and cutting overtime, banning late leaving from mail processing plants and also from stations — so, slowing the mail down, in effect — and, added to that, pulling up thousands of blue mail collection boxes and decommissioning these mail sorting machines, and then denying that, and then admitting that but saying it’s not had that much of an effect.
But the damage has been done. I think he’s demoralized postal workers. I think he has discouraged a lot of voters who are hoping to vote by mail, to vote safely and securely because of the pandemic. And he has also made, I think, people, as postal consumers, discouraged by promising that he will resume decommissioning these machines and these other policies of his after the election.
AMY GOODMAN: Have you seen anything like this before? For example, the post office in Tacoma, Washington, in Dallas, Texas, reconnecting letter sorting machines that were disconnected under orders from the postmaster general?
PHILIP RUBIO: Well, I can’t think of anything like that. But we have to remember, on the one hand, these are isolated incidents, but, on the other hand, they are revealing of what postal workers have always done in the past — taken measures into their own hands — and it’s a promise of what might happen in the future. That is, postal workers — because we have to remember, postal workers are really the heart of what I would call the service culture that’s still alive in the post office — OK? — as opposed to the business culture of just trying to cut costs. And so, to actually take a risk at being fired for insubordination, you know, to plugging those machines back in, we might see — that takes a great effort, and we might see something like postal workers defying bans on overtime to make sure that ballots get through.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to go to David C. Williams, the former Postal Service inspector general, former vice chair of the Postal Board of Governors. In his opening remarks to the House Progressive Caucus last week, Williams criticized Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin.
DAVID WILLIAMS: I recently resigned as the vice chairman of the Postal Board of Governors, when it became clear to me that the administration was politicizing the Postal Service, with the treasury secretary as the lead figure for the White House in that effort. By statute, the Treasury was made responsible for providing the Postal Service with a line of credit. The Treasury was using that responsibility to make demands that I believe would turn the Postal Service into a political tool, ending its long history as an apolitical public infrastructure.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you respond to that, Professor Philip Rubio?
PHILIP RUBIO: Well, David C. Williams was the watchdog, and he was one of two watchdogs, the other being Ronald Stroman, who also — well, he resigned under pressure. So, they were looking out for the Postal Service, and they both resigned because they saw it being politicized.
You know, the Postal Service, or the post office, that we’ve had around for 245 years, most of that time was a political institution, but we didn’t see that kind of partisan intervention — well, of course, with the exception of Andrew Jackson and the spoils system with hiring, but as far as manipulating the Postal Service and driving it into the ground. So, I’m glad to see him testifying. I’m glad to see Ron Stroman, former Board of Governors member, testifying.
AMY GOODMAN: Are you surprised that — with the enormous response across the country, the outcry, with the Postal Service having like a 91% positive rating, which delivers drugs, pharmaceuticals to veterans, to people who aren’t veterans, so relied on — I mean, the VA now looking for alternatives to the USPS because they’re concerned, you know, drugs won’t get to veterans on time, that the — are you concerned the damage has already been done, but surprised that DeJoy would say, “OK, we’ll hold off on changes until after the election”? Now, that’s really something, because it’s saying to people all across the country, if you stick with this administration, we’re going to gut the post office then.
PHILIP RUBIO: No, but I’m not surprised by anything that Postmaster General DeJoy is saying, because, apparently, he’s telling different people what he thinks they want to hear. And right now the outrage has forced him to back down, but he is making promises that he will resume essentially dismantling the Postal Service, which was instituted in 1971 after the great postal strike of 1970, and the idea being we’re going to create a nonpolitical institution and it’s going to be a hybrid government agency/business. What he assumes that he was given was a mandate to take it further in the business direction.
And, you know, unintentionally and ironically, both he and Trump, I think, have dramatized how — the perils of postal privatization and partisan intervention and driving our post office into the ground, that we don’t have to accept this, that we shouldn’t have to accept this, we shouldn’t have to take it.
I’m not surprised that there has been popular protest, popular outrage, because that’s something that people learned from the springtime with the George Floyd protests. And so, when you see people not getting their medications, when you see people not getting their mail on time, of course they’re going to speak up. And they’ve learned that protests can change things.
And I think that’s forced Congress to be — well, I should say, it’s encouraged Democrats in Congress to put this on the agenda. But it’s still not enough. What Democrats in the House and Senate are doing is the best they can do to keep putting pressure, with investigations and putting bills forward, that the American people will hopefully respond to.
AMY GOODMAN: President Trump tweeted — I’m going to go back and look at what he tweeted — on Sunday, “So now the Democrats are using Mail Drop Boxes, which are a voter security disaster. Among other things, they make it possible for a person to vote multiple times. Also, who controls them, are they placed in Republican or Democrat areas? They are not Covid sanitized. A big fraud!” Now Twitter has flagged the tweet for violating Twitter rules about civic and election integrity. He is suggesting you will get COVID if you drop your ballot into a ballot box.
PHILIP RUBIO: So, this is just more distraction that Trump and his administration are doing, as they’ve done around so many other issues, but around the Postal Service. And what is gratifying is to see that lots and lots of people, including politicians, are pushing back against that, are not being satisfied with DeJoy’s responses and are rebutting Trump’s claims.
But what all of this does is to — what it’s intended to do is to distract and discourage. And what we have to do as individuals, as well as a collective body, is to remember that we do have a right to vote. We have a right to vote safely. The Postal Service is mandated to provide universal service, whatever that service is, even if more than half of us vote by mail, to make sure that enough overtime is in effect, enough postal workers are deployed, to get all those ballots counted, for people to register and vote early, to vote in person if they feel safe enough doing that, but to vote and to keep putting pressure on the postmaster general.
AMY GOODMAN: And can anything legally be done? I mean, you’ve got the bill that was passed in the House, now the House hearing today. Not clear what will happen in the Senate, though it doesn’t look like Mitch McConnell would take it up, though there is bipartisan attack on Trump and DeJoy — of course, it starts at the top — for going after the Postal Service, so much so that Trump inexplicably, after attacking it for so long, sent out a tweet last week saying, ”SAVE THE POST OFFICE!” He just didn’t write “from me,” from himself.
PHILIP RUBIO: Right. And he and his wife and other administration members also vote by mail, and they are also encouraging Republicans to vote by mail. So, however you vote, people need to remember that they do have a right to vote, and they do have the right to expect that the postmaster general, who — even though it’s not a very strong political position, has a lot of power and can reverse these policy changes and can also work better with the states to make sure that the ballots are counted. But in the end, it will probably come down to postal workers, who make sure that the mail does get through, just as we always did.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, Philip Rubio, I want to thank you for joining us. Key that you said, “just as we always did,” because before being a historian, you were a U.S. postman for 20 years, now a history professor at North Carolina A&T State University, author of Undelivered: From the Great Postal Strike of 1970 to the Manufactured Crisis of the U.S. Postal Service.
Next up, we’ll look at the arrest of Trump’s former campaign manager Steve Bannon and others on fraud charges connected to the “We Build the Wall” effort. We’ll find out what that is. Stay with us.


democracynow--2020-08-24--Headlines for August 24, 2020

Headlines for August 24, 2020

The confirmed U.S. death toll from COVID-19 has topped 176,000 , with over 5.7 million recorded infections .
On Sunday , the Food and Drug Administration issued an emergency use authorization for blood plasma in the treatment of COVID-19 , saying “ the known and potential benefits of the product outweigh the known and potential risks of the product.
” Over 70,000 patients have already been treated with plasma from recovered patients .
The news came just one day after President Trump accused the FDA of delaying approval of coronavirus vaccines and being part of the “ deep state ” @ @ @ @ @ @ @ health officials , including White House coronavirus adviser Dr. Anthony Fauci , have questioned whether the data on the blood plasma study was still too weak , with no randomized studies , to grant an FDA approval .
This comes amid rising concern over outbreaks in schools around the country as at least three dozen states so far have reported cases on college campuses .
Meanwhile , ProPublica reports that meatpacking companies — another major source of coronavirus clusters — were regularly warned about the potential for a pandemic as early as 2006 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ some cases mocked , recommendations for handling one .
Here in New York City , a protest under the banner “ March for the Dead ” took place Friday to memorialize the over 175,000 lives lost so far .
Families of victims of COVID-19 called out Trump for his mishandling of the pandemic , as they marched across the Brooklyn Bridge to the Trump Building in Lower Manhattan .

The confirmed U.S. death toll from COVID-19 has topped 176,000, with over 5.7 million recorded infections. On Sunday, the Food and Drug Administration issued an emergency use authorization for blood plasma in the treatment of COVID-19, saying “the known and potential benefits of the product outweigh the known and potential risks of the product.” Over 70,000 patients have already been treated with plasma from recovered patients. The news came just one day after President Trump accused the FDA of delaying approval of coronavirus vaccines and being part of the “deep state” — without any evidence. Some top health officials, including White House coronavirus adviser Dr. Anthony Fauci, have questioned whether the data on the blood plasma study was still too weak, with no randomized studies, to grant an FDA approval.
This comes amid rising concern over outbreaks in schools around the country as at least three dozen states so far have reported cases on college campuses.
Meanwhile, ProPublica reports that meatpacking companies — another major source of coronavirus clusters — were regularly warned about the potential for a pandemic as early as 2006, but executives ignored, and in some cases mocked, recommendations for handling one.
Here in New York City, a protest under the banner “March for the Dead” took place Friday to memorialize the over 175,000 lives lost so far.
Protesters: “Fight for the living! March for the dead!”
Families of victims of COVID-19 called out Trump for his mishandling of the pandemic, as they marched across the Brooklyn Bridge to the Trump Building in Lower Manhattan.


democracynow--2020-08-27--"Authoritarian Nightmare": John Dean Helped Bring Down Nixon over Watergate. He Says Trump Is Worse

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : Well , as President Trump is set to accept the Republican Party ’ s formal nomination for president tonight amidst ongoing scandals and multiple crises , we ’ re joined by John Dean , who served as the White House counsel for President Richard Nixon from 1970 to '73 .
His testimony during the Watergate scandal helped bring down Nixon .
Well , John Dean has a new book .
It 's written with Bob Altemeyer , and it ’ s titled @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
John Dean , welcome back to Democracy Now !
It ’ s great to have you with us .
If you can respond to what Pence talked about last night and what he didn ’ t , and , of course , the significance of the Trump presidency ?
JOHN DEAN : Well , it ’ s quite clear what they ’ re doing is not new .
If you go back to the reporting of Hunter Thompson , who described this kind of convention as “ fear and loathing , ” @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on it .
This is what we ’ re seeing again , Amy .
They ’ re trying to stir up their support by , first of all , creating fear , creating uncertainty — this drives their authoritarian followers into their ranks — and a little loathing , for those prejudiced people who are also so much a part of these followers .
AMY GOODMAN : Why did you call your book Authoritarian Nightmare ?
JOHN DEAN : Well , what happened — as we were finishing the book , we had @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we thought we had a pretty horrid list of things that had occurred during this presidency .
Then came COVID-19 and the racial unrest and the great conversation we ’ re having now on that issue .
So , it really is a nightmare , because Trump ’ s followers tolerate his norm-busting , his undemocratic behavior .
And that , to us , is a nightmare .
AMY GOODMAN : Very interesting , of course , tonight he ’ ll be on the South Lawn .
They ’ re saying more than @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Last night , the lack of masks .
I mean , here you had Vice President Pence , who is head of the coronavirus task force , but his audience and Trump coming in at the end to shake people ’ s hands , to greet people , as well as Pence .
I want to turn to a phone interview President Trump did with Fox & Friends in May after the Department of Justice dropped charges against Trump ’ s former national security adviser Michael Flynn , even though Flynn twice pleaded @ @ @ @ @ @ @ his communications with the Russian ambassador .
Trump said he learned a lot from Richard Nixon during the federal investigation of his 2016 campaign ties to Russia .
AMY GOODMAN : So , John Dean , you were the man whose White House — whose Watergate testimony helped to lead to the downfall of Richard Nixon .
You talk about what it ’ s like to work for a vindictive president .
But even Nixon , you say , doesn ’ t have the raw lust for power that Donald Trump does .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ what he ’ s done , and the comparisons you see between Richard Nixon then and President Trump today .
JOHN DEAN : Amy , I worked for the last authoritarian president we had .
That was Nixon .
I learned a lot observing , watching what I was doing right then and there .
We ’ ve had very few authoritarian presidents , depending on exactly how you define them , but as generally social science looks at these people : Andrew Jackson , Woodrow Wilson , Richard Nixon and now Donald @ @ @ @ @ @ @ unique governing style in these people .
And that is , they don ’ t really want to hear anything from their aides other than obedience .
And we ’ re seeing that at this time .
The lesson that he learned from Nixon is “ don ’ t get caught , ” because Nixon was caught .
And so , he said , “ Well , of course , he was guilty , so that ’ s different than me.
” Well , Nixon did not think he was guilty , but @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to follow the rule of law .
What concerns me about Trump , I don ’ t think Trump will do what Nixon did .
He certainly wouldn ’ t concede during the impeachment proceeding that he had done anything .
Richard Nixon didn ’ t take the country through an impeachment proceeding .
So , Trump is of a different cut than Nixon .
I think , in fact , Amy , he ’ s going to make Nixon look like a choir boy before it ’ s all over .
AMY @ @ @ @ @ @ @ been impeached on the first day .
Why ?
JOHN DEAN : Well , because , first of all , his behavior during the campaign , where he reached out and obviously colluded with Russia .
We now have it by the Senate Intelligence Committee , where nine Republicans joined in in the report and show very clear collusion .
This is just unprecedented .
So , this president needs to go .
And the only way to force him to go is for people , in a tsunami-style election , to remove @ @ @ @ @ @ @ talked about LeBron James coming up to Washington , leaving the bubble of the basketball court to protest President Trump .
Can you talk about how Nixon dealt with protests , how he cared about protests , and Donald Trump , what he does ?
And then talk about the Republicans who have come out , one by one , supporting Joe Biden .
JOHN DEAN : Nixon pretended not to be fazed by demonstrations , yet exactly the opposite was true .
One of my jobs was to monitor demonstrations .
And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ wanted hourly reports as to what was happening , that we would get from law enforcement .
So , they did make a big impact .
The demonstrations today are not focused on the White House , and so Trump is using them as a law-and-order issue to try to say that he has federal authority to go into places like Portland or Kenosha and bring peace .
Well , that really isn ’ t his responsibility or his obligation , or should he really be doing that .
We haven ’ t @ @ @ @ @ @ @ state function .
So , I think that what Trump is doing is he ’ s really pushing this because it ’ s a campaign issue .
His followers , the people we deal with , and we think it ’ s essential that Americans understand , in our book , they want to be felt — they want to feel comfortable .
They want to feel a strong leader .
So that ’ s what he ’ s playing to .
It ’ s not that he knows this body of science @ @ @ @ @ @ @ just , intuitively , he knows what to do .
And that is to give them the impression that daddy ’ s taking care of everything .
AMY GOODMAN : You wrote this book with Bob Altemeyer , a psychology professor who ’ s a specialist in authoritarianism , to see why Trump ’ s base is so faithful to him , no matter what he does .
You ask the question : Why do evangelical Christians support him , for example , despite his well-documented sexual predations ?
And now , of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ had to step down as head of Liberty University because of a sexual scandal , as well .
He was an early supporter of President Trump when he was running for president , extremely significant in Trump ’ s success .
You talk about why do many working-class Americans support him , despite the way he works against their interests .
Talk more about your psychological approach to Trump , and what you think has to be done right now .
JOHN DEAN : Well , I have actually been on this subject @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ago , I did a book called Conservatives Without Conscience .
And Bob Altemeyer was very helpful when I was trying to understand the religious right and how they had become fairly dominant in the Republican ranks .
And I discovered that ’ s where the authoritarian personalities , both leaders and followers , had taken over the conservative movement .
Bob Altemeyer was as stunned as I was that no one was reporting on what was happening during the primary race and the 2016 campaign when Trump was running , who his @ @ @ @ @ @ @ available studying these very kinds of people and why they do what they do .
It ’ s more than soundbites .
But to understand them is to realize they ’ re frightened people , and there are ways to deal with them .
But the way that they are proceeding now is he ’ s just baiting them , and the demonstrations in the street are playing into his campaign , give me some concern that indeed this could help him to victory , if enough people think he ’ s going @ @ @ @ @ @ @ So , I ’ ve been on this issue a long time .
Altemeyer has spent his lifetime .
It ’ s a career of science .
And what was , Amy , most exciting about this project is , as we started it , we didn ’ t how it would play out fully in the United States .
Most of the experiments were done in Canada , in small university towns , with students and parents .
Well , we had the Monmouth Polling Institute run a national survey .
From @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we got a good sampling of about just under a thousand people .
JOHN DEAN : The Conman Scale .
We gave people all the key tests , personality tests .
And we found that authoritarianism is ripe and ready and certainly in play .
And it explains Trump ’ s base .
AMY GOODMAN : Let me go to President Trump speaking to delegates at the RNC on Monday .
JOHN DEAN : We found in the poll that about 24 % to 29 % of his followers will tolerate him ignoring @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
That ’ s troubling .
AMY GOODMAN : John Dean , I want to thank you so much for being with us , served as White House counsel for President Richard Nixon from 1970 to ’ 73 .
His testimony during the Watergate scandal helped bring down President Nixon .
And that does it for our show .
The book is called Authoritarian Nightmare : Trump and His Followers .
Democracy Now !
is produced with Mike Burke , Renée Feltz , Deena Guzder , Libby Rainey , Nermeen Shaikh , María @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , Charina Nadura , Sam Alcoff .
I ’ m Amy Goodman .
Stay safe .
Wear a mask .
Save lives .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, as President Trump is set to accept the Republican Party’s formal nomination for president tonight amidst ongoing scandals and multiple crises, we’re joined by John Dean, who served as the White House counsel for President Richard Nixon from 1970 to '73. His testimony during the Watergate scandal helped bring down Nixon. Well, John Dean has a new book. It's written with Bob Altemeyer, and it’s titled Authoritarian Nightmare: Trump and His Followers.
John Dean, welcome back to Democracy Now! It’s great to have you with us. If you can respond to what Pence talked about last night and what he didn’t, and, of course, the significance of the Trump presidency?
JOHN DEAN: Well, it’s quite clear what they’re doing is not new. If you go back to the reporting of Hunter Thompson, who described this kind of convention as “fear and loathing,” I think Hunter had his finger right on it. This is what we’re seeing again, Amy. They’re trying to stir up their support by, first of all, creating fear, creating uncertainty — this drives their authoritarian followers into their ranks — and a little loathing, for those prejudiced people who are also so much a part of these followers.
AMY GOODMAN: Why did you call your book Authoritarian Nightmare?
JOHN DEAN: Well, what happened — as we were finishing the book, we had already titled it Authoritarian Nightmare, and we thought we had a pretty horrid list of things that had occurred during this presidency. Then came COVID-19 and the racial unrest and the great conversation we’re having now on that issue. So, it really is a nightmare, because Trump’s followers tolerate his norm-busting, his undemocratic behavior. And that, to us, is a nightmare.
AMY GOODMAN: Very interesting, of course, tonight he’ll be on the South Lawn. They’re saying more than a thousand people will be there. Last night, the lack of masks. I mean, here you had Vice President Pence, who is head of the coronavirus task force, but his audience and Trump coming in at the end to shake people’s hands, to greet people, as well as Pence. I want to turn to a phone interview President Trump did with Fox & Friends in May after the Department of Justice dropped charges against Trump’s former national security adviser Michael Flynn, even though Flynn twice pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about his communications with the Russian ambassador. Trump said he learned a lot from Richard Nixon during the federal investigation of his 2016 campaign ties to Russia.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I learned a lot from Richard Nixon: Don’t fire people. I learned a lot. I study history. And the firing of everybody, I should have, in one way, but I’m glad I didn’t, because look at the way it turned out. They’re all a bunch of crooks, and they got caught. But I learned a lot by watching Richard Nixon. Of course, there was one difference, one big difference. Number one, he may have been guilty. And, number two, he had tapes all over the place. I wasn’t guilty. I did nothing wrong. And there are no tapes.
AMY GOODMAN: So, John Dean, you were the man whose White House — whose Watergate testimony helped to lead to the downfall of Richard Nixon. You talk about what it’s like to work for a vindictive president. But even Nixon, you say, doesn’t have the raw lust for power that Donald Trump does. Talk about what he just said and what he’s done, and the comparisons you see between Richard Nixon then and President Trump today.
JOHN DEAN: Amy, I worked for the last authoritarian president we had. That was Nixon. I learned a lot observing, watching what I was doing right then and there. We’ve had very few authoritarian presidents, depending on exactly how you define them, but as generally social science looks at these people: Andrew Jackson, Woodrow Wilson, Richard Nixon and now Donald Trump. There’s a very unique governing style in these people. And that is, they don’t really want to hear anything from their aides other than obedience. And we’re seeing that at this time.
The lesson that he learned from Nixon is “don’t get caught,” because Nixon was caught. And so, he said, “Well, of course, he was guilty, so that’s different than me.” Well, Nixon did not think he was guilty, but Nixon, when cornered, was willing to follow the rule of law. What concerns me about Trump, I don’t think Trump will do what Nixon did. He certainly wouldn’t concede during the impeachment proceeding that he had done anything. Richard Nixon didn’t take the country through an impeachment proceeding. So, Trump is of a different cut than Nixon. I think, in fact, Amy, he’s going to make Nixon look like a choir boy before it’s all over.
AMY GOODMAN: You said Trump should have been impeached on the first day. Why?
JOHN DEAN: Well, because, first of all, his behavior during the campaign, where he reached out and obviously colluded with Russia. We now have it by the Senate Intelligence Committee, where nine Republicans joined in in the report and show very clear collusion. This is just unprecedented. So, this president needs to go. And the only way to force him to go is for people, in a tsunami-style election, to remove him.
AMY GOODMAN: We just talked about LeBron James coming up to Washington, leaving the bubble of the basketball court to protest President Trump. Can you talk about how Nixon dealt with protests, how he cared about protests, and Donald Trump, what he does? And then talk about the Republicans who have come out, one by one, supporting Joe Biden.
JOHN DEAN: Nixon pretended not to be fazed by demonstrations, yet exactly the opposite was true. One of my jobs was to monitor demonstrations. And during the height of demonstrations, he wanted hourly reports as to what was happening, that we would get from law enforcement. So, they did make a big impact.
The demonstrations today are not focused on the White House, and so Trump is using them as a law-and-order issue to try to say that he has federal authority to go into places like Portland or Kenosha and bring peace. Well, that really isn’t his responsibility or his obligation, or should he really be doing that. We haven’t federalized law enforcement; it’s state function. So, I think that what Trump is doing is he’s really pushing this because it’s a campaign issue.
His followers, the people we deal with, and we think it’s essential that Americans understand, in our book, they want to be felt — they want to feel comfortable. They want to feel a strong leader. So that’s what he’s playing to. It’s not that he knows this body of science we report on. It’s just, intuitively, he knows what to do. And that is to give them the impression that daddy’s taking care of everything.
AMY GOODMAN: You wrote this book with Bob Altemeyer, a psychology professor who’s a specialist in authoritarianism, to see why Trump’s base is so faithful to him, no matter what he does. You ask the question: Why do evangelical Christians support him, for example, despite his well-documented sexual predations? And now, of course, Jerry Falwell Jr. has just had to step down as head of Liberty University because of a sexual scandal, as well. He was an early supporter of President Trump when he was running for president, extremely significant in Trump’s success. You talk about why do many working-class Americans support him, despite the way he works against their interests. Talk more about your psychological approach to Trump, and what you think has to be done right now.
JOHN DEAN: Well, I have actually been on this subject for some years. Over a decade ago, I did a book called Conservatives Without Conscience. And Bob Altemeyer was very helpful when I was trying to understand the religious right and how they had become fairly dominant in the Republican ranks. And I discovered that’s where the authoritarian personalities, both leaders and followers, had taken over the conservative movement.
Bob Altemeyer was as stunned as I was that no one was reporting on what was happening during the primary race and the 2016 campaign when Trump was running, who his supporters were and how much science was available studying these very kinds of people and why they do what they do. It’s more than soundbites. But to understand them is to realize they’re frightened people, and there are ways to deal with them.
But the way that they are proceeding now is he’s just baiting them, and the demonstrations in the street are playing into his campaign, give me some concern that indeed this could help him to victory, if enough people think he’s going to solve the problem of demonstrations.
So, I’ve been on this issue a long time. Altemeyer has spent his lifetime. It’s a career of science. And what was, Amy, most exciting about this project is, as we started it, we didn’t how it would play out fully in the United States. Most of the experiments were done in Canada, in small university towns, with students and parents. Well, we had the Monmouth Polling Institute run a national survey. From a base of about 230,000 people, we got a good sampling of about just under a thousand people.
AMY GOODMAN: The Conman Scale?
JOHN DEAN: The Conman Scale. We gave people all the key tests, personality tests. And we found that authoritarianism is ripe and ready and certainly in play. And it explains Trump’s base.
AMY GOODMAN: Let me go to President Trump speaking to delegates at the RNC on Monday.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: The only way they can take this election away from us is if this is a rigged election. We’re going to win this election. … What they’re doing is using COVID to steal an election. They’re using COVID to defraud the American people, all of our people, of a fair and free election. And we can’t do that.
AMY GOODMAN: John Dean, your final comment?
JOHN DEAN: We found in the poll that about 24% to 29% of his followers will tolerate him ignoring the Constitution if he loses the election. That’s troubling.
AMY GOODMAN: John Dean, I want to thank you so much for being with us, served as White House counsel for President Richard Nixon from 1970 to ’73. His testimony during the Watergate scandal helped bring down President Nixon.
And that does it for our show. The book is called Authoritarian Nightmare: Trump and His Followers.
Democracy Now! is produced with Mike Burke, Renée Feltz, Deena Guzder, Libby Rainey, Nermeen Shaikh, María Taracena, Carla Wills, Tami Woronoff, Charina Nadura, Sam Alcoff. I’m Amy Goodman. Stay safe. Wear a mask. Save lives.


democracynow--2020-08-27--Law and Order? VP Mike Pence Ignores Police Violence & Stokes Division on Third Night of RNC

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
We are breaking with convention .
I ’ m Amy Goodman .
Vice President Mike Pence formally accepted the Republican nomination for a second term Wednesday night .
In his acceptance speech at Fort McHenry in Baltimore , Pence focused largely on preserving law and order and attacking the Democratic nominee , Joe Biden .
VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE : President Trump and I will always support the right of Americans to peaceful protest .
But rioting @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Tearing down statues is not free speech .
And those who do so will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law .
Last week , Joe Biden didn ’ t say one word about the violence and chaos engulfing cities across this country .
So let me be clear : The violence must stop , whether in Minneapolis , Portland or Kenosha .
Too many heroes have died defending our freedom to see Americans strike each other down .
We will have law and order on the streets of this country @ @ @ @ @ @ @ creed and color .
President Trump and I know that the men and women that put on the uniform of law enforcement are the best of us .
Every day , when they walk out that door , they consider our lives more important than their own — people like Dave Patrick Underwood , an officer in the Department of Homeland Security ’ s Federal Protective Service , who was shot and killed during the riots in Oakland , California .
Dave ’ s heroism is emblematic of the heroes that serve in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ re privileged tonight to be joined by his sister Angela .
Angela , we say to you , we grieve with your family , and America will never forget or fail to honor officer Dave Patrick Underwood .
AMY GOODMAN : While Vice President Pence focused on the killing of federal security officer David Patrick Underwood , he left out a key part of his murder .
The man charged with Underwood ’ s death was not a Black Lives Matter protester , but an Air Force staff sergeant with ties to the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ has used protests against police brutality as a cover to carry out violence .
Cassie Miller of the Southern Poverty Law Center recently spoke with Democracy Now !
about Steven Carrillo , who was charged with Underwood ’ s murder .
CASSIE MILLER : We know that he is a staff sergeant in the military and that this was one of — sort of just one violent plot that we ’ ve seen from the “ boogaloo ” movement .
Carrillo went to a federal courthouse and opened fire on two security officers @ @ @ @ @ @ @ then , when law enforcement tracked a van used in that attack to his residence , he ambushed those law enforcement officers and killed another .
What we know is that he is connected to the “ boogaloo ” movement from his online footprint and from things that were found on the crime scene , like a “ boogaloo ” patch that was found in his van .
The “ boogaloo ” as a term is used to describe an upcoming civil war .
Or in more extreme circles , it ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ war .
So , the “ boogaloo ” movement doesn ’ t have , really , a singular ideology .
It kind of runs the gamut of the far right .
So the people who associate with it are everything from libertarians to people who are overtly racist .
What we know is that all of them are united in this belief that the United States is tyrannical and that it needs to be overthrown in a second civil war .
And that ’ s something that they are actively preparing for and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we have seen people like Carrillo , who are going out and trying to commit acts of violence alongside these protests to try and increase civil unrest , with the goal of pushing towards the second civil war .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now! We are breaking with convention. I’m Amy Goodman.
Vice President Mike Pence formally accepted the Republican nomination for a second term Wednesday night. In his acceptance speech at Fort McHenry in Baltimore, Pence focused largely on preserving law and order and attacking the Democratic nominee, Joe Biden.
VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: President Trump and I will always support the right of Americans to peaceful protest. But rioting and looting is not peaceful protest. Tearing down statues is not free speech. And those who do so will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
Last week, Joe Biden didn’t say one word about the violence and chaos engulfing cities across this country. So let me be clear: The violence must stop, whether in Minneapolis, Portland or Kenosha. Too many heroes have died defending our freedom to see Americans strike each other down. We will have law and order on the streets of this country for every American of every race and creed and color.
President Trump and I know that the men and women that put on the uniform of law enforcement are the best of us. Every day, when they walk out that door, they consider our lives more important than their own — people like Dave Patrick Underwood, an officer in the Department of Homeland Security’s Federal Protective Service, who was shot and killed during the riots in Oakland, California. Dave’s heroism is emblematic of the heroes that serve in blue every day. And we’re privileged tonight to be joined by his sister Angela. Angela, we say to you, we grieve with your family, and America will never forget or fail to honor officer Dave Patrick Underwood.
AMY GOODMAN: While Vice President Pence focused on the killing of federal security officer David Patrick Underwood, he left out a key part of his murder. The man charged with Underwood’s death was not a Black Lives Matter protester, but an Air Force staff sergeant with ties to the far-right “boogaloo” movement, which has used protests against police brutality as a cover to carry out violence. Cassie Miller of the Southern Poverty Law Center recently spoke with Democracy Now! about Steven Carrillo, who was charged with Underwood’s murder.
CASSIE MILLER: We know that he is a staff sergeant in the military and that this was one of — sort of just one violent plot that we’ve seen from the “boogaloo” movement. Carrillo went to a federal courthouse and opened fire on two security officers, killing one of them. And then, when law enforcement tracked a van used in that attack to his residence, he ambushed those law enforcement officers and killed another. What we know is that he is connected to the “boogaloo” movement from his online footprint and from things that were found on the crime scene, like a “boogaloo” patch that was found in his van.
The “boogaloo” as a term is used to describe an upcoming civil war. Or in more extreme circles, it’s used to refer explicitly to a race war. So, the “boogaloo” movement doesn’t have, really, a singular ideology. It kind of runs the gamut of the far right. So the people who associate with it are everything from libertarians to people who are overtly racist. What we know is that all of them are united in this belief that the United States is tyrannical and that it needs to be overthrown in a second civil war. And that’s something that they are actively preparing for and that many believe are inevitable. And we have seen people like Carrillo, who are going out and trying to commit acts of violence alongside these protests to try and increase civil unrest, with the goal of pushing towards the second civil war.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s Cassie Miller of the Southern Poverty Law Center.