democracynow--2020-04-22--Bill McKibben on Earth Day at 50: We Must Stop Subsidizing Fossil Fuel Industry Wrecking the Planet

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
, democracynow.org , The Quarantine Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman , with Juan González , as we mark this 50th anniversary of Earth Day , started have a century ago .
Ten percent of the U.S. population participated in events .
We are joined by Bill McKibben , who is the founder of 350.org , author , educator , environmentalist .
His latest book , Falter : Has the Human Game Begun to Play Itself @ @ @ @ @ @ @ New Yorker , “ How We Can Build a Hardier World After the Coronavirus.
” And in The Nation , he wrote a piece , “ This Earth Day , Stop the Money Pipeline.
” Bill , we ’ re going to try this again , from your home in Vermont , hope we have a better connection .
Talk about the significance of this Earth Day 50 years later , and what needs to happen now in the midst of this pandemic .
BILL McKIBBEN : Sure .
And thanks for bearing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the rearrangements we ’ re all making in our lives .
Look , 50 years ago , as you say , was probably the biggest day of political action in American history , and it came out of the fury over the dirty air and the dirty water that marked our country .
People were wearing surgical masks 50 years ago today , too , but they were doing it to protest the almost unbreathable air in many of our cities , the kind of air we now see in places like Beijing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we owe a great debt of thanks to , because they changed the zeitgeist , and in the wake of that massive show of protest , President Nixon , conservative Republican , signed the Endangered Species Act , the Clean Air Act , the Clean Water Act , everything else — all the acts that Donald Trump is systematically trying to gut .
That was a remarkable accomplishment , and our air and water are cleaner , but we didn ’ t make the kind of systemic , fundamental changes that we would @ @ @ @ @ @ @ deeper environmental perils that face us now .
I mean , in the last 50 years , Amy , the temperature has obviously gone sharply up .
We ’ ve lost half the sea ice in the summer Arctic .
The chemistry of the oceans has changed , and changed dramatically .
We ’ ve lost some of the biggest living things on Earth , the Great Barrier Reef , large parts of our rainforests .
Half the wild animals in the world are dead now compared to 40 years ago .
Those @ @ @ @ @ @ @ met with remarkable upsurge again in protest and action .
And we ’ re seeing some of that .
And we ’ ll see some of it today , albeit online , at this 72 hours of Earth Day online live .
It begins at 9:00 on Earth Day morning .
It ’ s a struggle , a deeper struggle than we ’ ve ever seen before .
And the salience of that struggle is highlighted as we deal with the pandemic .
What are the messages that come out of this strange @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that reality is real , that you can ’ t hector or fight with or force to negotiate or compromise chemistry or physics or biology .
Both the COVID microbe and the carbon dioxide molecule are immune to political persuasion , no matter how much our president yells at them .
If they say , “ Stand six feet apart , ” we stand six feet apart .
If they say , “ It ’ s time to stop burning coal and gas and oil , ” then that ’ s what we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ re learning lessons about delay and timing here that are crucial .
As you know , the countries that flattened the coronavirus curve early on are doing far better than those like ours , which delayed .
That ’ s a pretty perfect analog to the 30 years that we ’ ve wasted in the climate crisis .
And I think , third , maybe most powerfully , the lesson that we ’ re learning is social solidarity is almost everything .
You know , Amy , this era in our political @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with Ronald Reagan announcing that the nine scariest words in the English language were “ I ’ m from the government , and I ’ m here to help.
” But those aren ’ t the scariest words in the English language .
The scariest words are “ We ’ ve run out of ventilators , ” “ The hillside behind your house has caught on fire.
” And those kind of things , we can only face together .
So , maybe , maybe we ’ ll see the beginning of the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for himself , as we come through this linked — JUAN GONZÁLEZ : Bill , I wanted to ask you — JUAN GONZÁLEZ : Given the — ironically , this pandemic has led to a situation where the air on Earth is probably cleaner , as I think you ’ ve remarked , than at any time in recent memory , as a result of so many planes being grounded , so many cars unable to — the passengers get into them , and so much of industry ground to a halt .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ how the pandemic is going to affect the battle over climate change in the future .
BILL McKIBBEN : Well , so , there are people on Earth , Juan , who are getting literally their first lungfuls of clean air this month , in their lives .
And as we ’ re worrying about the [ inaudible ] we must , that comes with coronavirus , we should think also of all the other things that go after our lungs .
We [ inaudible ] a million children in Delhi [ inaudible @ @ @ @ @ @ @ So , there ’ s definitely some — there ’ s definitely a kind of kinship , that even as we all live through the horror of this pandemic , there are people who are glimpsing the way that the world could be .
If we all go straight [ inaudible ] normal , it won ’ t mean very much .
[ inaudible ] — BILL McKIBBEN : — normal looks like , then — AMY GOODMAN : Bill , we ’ re going to try to fix your — we ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ feed a little better , but I do want to read what Trump tweeted again .
We said it earlier .
He said , “ We will never let the great U.S. Oil & Gas Industry down .
I have instructed the Secretary of Energy and Secretary of the Treasury to formulate a plan which will make funds available so that these very important companies and jobs will be secured long into the future !
” Can you , Bill McKibben , respond to what he is saying right now in the midst @ @ @ @ @ @ @ So , the great oil and gas industry has been subsidized for a hundred years with trillions of dollars in taxpayer money .
And now there ’ s no demand for its product , and it ’ s being [ inaudible ] .
So , the oil industry is in huge trouble .
We saw great news yesterday when Oxford University , most famous university on Earth , divested from fossil fuel , on the theory that you could never — that it ’ s both immoral and uneconomical ; more good news @ @ @ @ @ @ @ did the same thing here in the States .
These are powerful signs .
And yes , all they ’ ve got left is kind of political juice , and Trump will do everything he can to try and bail them out with our money .
We ’ ve got to try and make sure that that doesn ’ t happen , that workers get protected , that we have a just transition for people who , through no fault of their own , are employed in that industry .
But it ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ continue subsidizing an industry that , A , is wrecking the planet and , B , no longer makes any economic sense .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : Bill , I wanted to ask you about your emphasis of late on cutting off the money spigot for the fossil fuel industry .
There ’ s the announcement recently of Citigroup that they are going to — the third-largest bank in the United States , that they ’ re going to , from now on , not invest in new coal-fired power plants or oil and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Is this movement beginning to have a real impact on the financial underpinnings of the fossil fuel industry ?
BILL McKIBBEN : Yeah , Juan , it sure is .
You know , one of the sadnesses about the pandemic , from an organizer point of view , is that this movement was cresting , and there would have been , today , people doing nonviolent civil disobedience , sit-ins , in probably half the 5,000 Chase Bank branches around America .
Some of us were arrested at the first of these in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ launch this thing .
We can ’ t do that , obviously , so people are going online .
This Earth Day Live thing is going to be really spectacular .
But the finance arm of the climate fight really has been growing fast in the last year .
Probably the biggest victory was getting BlackRock to — well , getting BlackRock to make a series of announcements — this is the biggest asset manager on Earth , really the biggest box of money on the planet — getting them to make a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ policies .
Now we ’ re monitoring to see if they ’ re serious about it , to see if they ’ re actually doing it .
One of the first tests will come next month , when Chase Bank , biggest bank in the world , tries to reappoint 81-year-old Lee Raymond to the lead — post of lead independent director .
He ’ s the guy who ran Exxon for 15 years in the years when it was pioneering corporate climate denial .
And now he runs the board of the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ That ’ s the kind of thing that needs to stop .
And we ’ ll see .
I mean , this pressure is going to be as unrelenting as we can make it , even amidst a pandemic .
AMY GOODMAN : And New York City Council , what will it be voting on , Bill McKibben ?
You just had a virtual news conference with city councilmembers .
*BILL McKIBBEN : Yes .
Brad Lander and other city councilmembers announced Monday that they were seeking to help cut ties between the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ t take climate change seriously .
And that ’ s a big deal , because cities do a lot of business with these guys .
Remember , Amy , that one difference between — I mean , we ’ ve pressured the fossil fuel companies very hard and to great effect .
The divestment campaign is the biggest anti-corporate campaign in history now , with $ 14 trillion engaged .
But the fossil fuel industry will fight to the last bridge .
They only know how to do one thing .
If @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , yeah , you lend them a lot of money — a quarter-trillion in the last four years to the fossil fuel industry — but it ’ s still only 6 or 7 % of your business .
So , you might change , and change fast , if you ’ ve got sufficient pressure .
And that ’ s the pressure that people are building now .
AMY GOODMAN : And the live stream of the three days of celebrations , Bill McKibben , in the midst of this pandemic , where @ @ @ @ @ @ @ comment on what this pandemic can mean ?
Arundhati Roy talks about the pandemic as a portal , and how , in the midst of this terrible suffering , something can come out that makes this world better and safer for everyone .
BILL McKIBBEN : Well , google “ Earth Day Live ” to join this live stream .
And then take a moment to reflect about the beauty that remains yet on even this hard-pressed world .
It is our job , the job of our time on Earth , to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ down and limit the civilization-threatening changes that we see going on around us .
We ’ re capable of doing it .
The engineers have provided us with the gift in the form of sun and wind energy .
Let ’ s see if we can come together to take advantage of it .
We better .
If we ’ re on the current trends , then 50 years from now , Earth Day won ’ t be a celebration .
It will be a funeral .
AMY GOODMAN : Bill McKibben , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , author , educator , environmentalist , co-founder of 350.org .
We ’ ll link to your pieces in The New Yorker magazine , as well as The Nation .
In it , he writes , “ This Earth Day , Stop the Money Pipeline.
” When we come back , Kumi Naidoo , the former head of Greenpeace and Amnesty International .
Stay with us .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The Quarantine Report. I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan González, as we mark this 50th anniversary of Earth Day, started have a century ago. Ten percent of the U.S. population participated in events.
We are joined by Bill McKibben, who is the founder of 350.org, author, educator, environmentalist. His latest book, Falter: Has the Human Game Begun to Play Itself Out? His recent piece in The New Yorker, “How We Can Build a Hardier World After the Coronavirus.” And in The Nation, he wrote a piece, “This Earth Day, Stop the Money Pipeline.”
Bill, we’re going to try this again, from your home in Vermont, hope we have a better connection. Talk about the significance of this Earth Day 50 years later, and what needs to happen now in the midst of this pandemic.
BILL McKIBBEN: Sure. And thanks for bearing with me in the midst of all the rearrangements we’re all making in our lives.
Look, 50 years ago, as you say, was probably the biggest day of political action in American history, and it came out of the fury over the dirty air and the dirty water that marked our country. People were wearing surgical masks 50 years ago today, too, but they were doing it to protest the almost unbreathable air in many of our cities, the kind of air we now see in places like Beijing and Delhi. Those early warriors, we owe a great debt of thanks to, because they changed the zeitgeist, and in the wake of that massive show of protest, President Nixon, conservative Republican, signed the Endangered Species Act, the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act, everything else — all the acts that Donald Trump is systematically trying to gut. That was a remarkable accomplishment, and our air and water are cleaner, but we didn’t make the kind of systemic, fundamental changes that we would have needed to head off the much deeper environmental perils that face us now.
I mean, in the last 50 years, Amy, the temperature has obviously gone sharply up. We’ve lost half the sea ice in the summer Arctic. The chemistry of the oceans has changed, and changed dramatically. We’ve lost some of the biggest living things on Earth, the Great Barrier Reef, large parts of our rainforests. Half the wild animals in the world are dead now compared to 40 years ago.
Those are remarkable changes that need to be met with remarkable upsurge again in protest and action. And we’re seeing some of that. And we’ll see some of it today, albeit online, at this 72 hours of Earth Day online live. It begins at 9:00 on Earth Day morning. It’s a struggle, a deeper struggle than we’ve ever seen before. And the salience of that struggle is highlighted as we deal with the pandemic.
What are the messages that come out of this strange moment in human history? One, that reality is real, that you can’t hector or fight with or force to negotiate or compromise chemistry or physics or biology. Both the COVID microbe and the carbon dioxide molecule are immune to political persuasion, no matter how much our president yells at them. If they say, “Stand six feet apart,” we stand six feet apart. If they say, “It’s time to stop burning coal and gas and oil,” then that’s what we need to do.
Similarly, we’re learning lessons about delay and timing here that are crucial. As you know, the countries that flattened the coronavirus curve early on are doing far better than those like ours, which delayed. That’s a pretty perfect analog to the 30 years that we’ve wasted in the climate crisis.
And I think, third, maybe most powerfully, the lesson that we’re learning is social solidarity is almost everything. You know, Amy, this era in our political life began, in a sense, with Ronald Reagan announcing that the nine scariest words in the English language were “I’m from the government, and I’m here to help.” But those aren’t the scariest words in the English language. The scariest words are “We’ve run out of ventilators,” “The hillside behind your house has caught on fire.” And those kind of things, we can only face together. So, maybe, maybe we’ll see the beginning of the end of this doctrine of every man for himself, as we come through this linked —
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, Bill —
BILL McKIBBEN: — and escalating series of crises.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Bill, I wanted to ask you —
BILL McKIBBEN: Yes.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Given the — ironically, this pandemic has led to a situation where the air on Earth is probably cleaner, as I think you’ve remarked, than at any time in recent memory, as a result of so many planes being grounded, so many cars unable to — the passengers get into them, and so much of industry ground to a halt. I’m wondering your thoughts about how the pandemic is going to affect the battle over climate change in the future.
BILL McKIBBEN: Well, so, there are people on Earth, Juan, who are getting literally their first lungfuls of clean air this month, in their lives. And as we’re worrying about the [inaudible] we must, that comes with coronavirus, we should think also of all the other things that go after our lungs. We [inaudible] a million children in Delhi [inaudible] just from breathing the air. So, there’s definitely some — there’s definitely a kind of kinship, that even as we all live through the horror of this pandemic, there are people who are glimpsing the way that the world could be. If we all go straight [inaudible] normal, it won’t mean very much. [inaudible] —
AMY GOODMAN: Bill —
BILL McKIBBEN: — normal looks like, then —
AMY GOODMAN: Bill, we’re going to try to fix your — we’re going to try to fix this feed a little better, but I do want to read what Trump tweeted again. We said it earlier. He said, “We will never let the great U.S. Oil & Gas Industry down. I have instructed the Secretary of Energy and Secretary of the Treasury to formulate a plan which will make funds available so that these very important companies and jobs will be secured long into the future!” Can you, Bill McKibben, respond to what he is saying right now in the midst of this pandemic?
BILL McKIBBEN: So, the great oil and gas industry has been subsidized for a hundred years with trillions of dollars in taxpayer money. And now there’s no demand for its product, and it’s being [inaudible]. So, the oil industry is in huge trouble. We saw great news yesterday when Oxford University, most famous university on Earth, divested from fossil fuel, on the theory that you could never — that it’s both immoral and uneconomical; more good news this morning, when the American University did the same thing here in the States. These are powerful signs.
And yes, all they’ve got left is kind of political juice, and Trump will do everything he can to try and bail them out with our money. We’ve got to try and make sure that that doesn’t happen, that workers get protected, that we have a just transition for people who, through no fault of their own, are employed in that industry. But it’s folly of the highest order to continue subsidizing an industry that, A, is wrecking the planet and, B, no longer makes any economic sense.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Bill, I wanted to ask you about your emphasis of late on cutting off the money spigot for the fossil fuel industry. There’s the announcement recently of Citigroup that they are going to — the third-largest bank in the United States, that they’re going to, from now on, not invest in new coal-fired power plants or oil and gas exploration in the Arctic Circle. Is this movement beginning to have a real impact on the financial underpinnings of the fossil fuel industry?
BILL McKIBBEN: Yeah, Juan, it sure is. You know, one of the sadnesses about the pandemic, from an organizer point of view, is that this movement was cresting, and there would have been, today, people doing nonviolent civil disobedience, sit-ins, in probably half the 5,000 Chase Bank branches around America. Some of us were arrested at the first of these in January in an effort to kind of launch this thing. We can’t do that, obviously, so people are going online. This Earth Day Live thing is going to be really spectacular.
But the finance arm of the climate fight really has been growing fast in the last year. Probably the biggest victory was getting BlackRock to — well, getting BlackRock to make a series of announcements — this is the biggest asset manager on Earth, really the biggest box of money on the planet — getting them to make a series of announcements about their new climate policies. Now we’re monitoring to see if they’re serious about it, to see if they’re actually doing it. One of the first tests will come next month, when Chase Bank, biggest bank in the world, tries to reappoint 81-year-old Lee Raymond to the lead — post of lead independent director. He’s the guy who ran Exxon for 15 years in the years when it was pioneering corporate climate denial. And now he runs the board of the biggest fossil fuel funder on Earth. That’s the kind of thing that needs to stop. And we’ll see. I mean, this pressure is going to be as unrelenting as we can make it, even amidst a pandemic.
AMY GOODMAN: And New York City Council, what will it be voting on, Bill McKibben? You just had a virtual news conference with city councilmembers.
*BILL McKIBBEN: Yes. Brad Lander and other city councilmembers announced Monday that they were seeking to help cut ties between the city and banks like Chase that don’t take climate change seriously. And that’s a big deal, because cities do a lot of business with these guys.
Remember, Amy, that one difference between — I mean, we’ve pressured the fossil fuel companies very hard and to great effect. The divestment campaign is the biggest anti-corporate campaign in history now, with $14 trillion engaged. But the fossil fuel industry will fight to the last bridge. They only know how to do one thing. If you’re a bank like Chase, yeah, you lend them a lot of money — a quarter-trillion in the last four years to the fossil fuel industry — but it’s still only 6 or 7% of your business. So, you might change, and change fast, if you’ve got sufficient pressure. And that’s the pressure that people are building now.
AMY GOODMAN: And the live stream of the three days of celebrations, Bill McKibben, in the midst of this pandemic, where can people go? And your final comment on what this pandemic can mean? Arundhati Roy talks about the pandemic as a portal, and how, in the midst of this terrible suffering, something can come out that makes this world better and safer for everyone.
BILL McKIBBEN: Well, google “Earth Day Live” to join this live stream. And then take a moment to reflect about the beauty that remains yet on even this hard-pressed world. It is our job, the job of our time on Earth, to try and figure out how to slow down and limit the civilization-threatening changes that we see going on around us. We’re capable of doing it. The engineers have provided us with the gift in the form of sun and wind energy. Let’s see if we can come together to take advantage of it. We better. If we’re on the current trends, then 50 years from now, Earth Day won’t be a celebration. It will be a funeral.
AMY GOODMAN: Bill McKibben, we thank you for being with us, author, educator, environmentalist, co-founder of 350.org. We’ll link to your pieces in The New Yorker magazine, as well as The Nation. In it, he writes, “This Earth Day, Stop the Money Pipeline.”
When we come back, Kumi Naidoo, the former head of Greenpeace and Amnesty International. Stay with us.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: “Shield Against Coronavirus” by Senegal hip-hop collective Y’en a Marre.


democracynow--2020-04-22--Headlines for April 22, 2020

Headlines for April 22, 2020

In the United States , the epicenter of the pandemic , the death toll from COVID-19 has topped 45,000 .
On Tuesday , the Senate approved $ 484 billion in new coronavirus aid on a voice vote , with many senators remaining at home due to the pandemic .
The bill adds another $ 310 billion to the Paycheck Protection Program providing loans to small businesses , another $ 75 billion for hospitals , $ 25 billion for testing and $ 60 billion for emergency disaster loans and grants .
The House is expected to vote on the legislation today @ @ @ @ @ @ @ checks for U.S. households , no additional money for food stamps , no limits on fossil fuel bailouts , no funds for election security , no bailout for the U.S .
Postal Service and no additional funds for hard-hit state and local governments .
Democratic Congressmember Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez told MSNBC Tuesday that lawmakers are failing to provide for millions of unemployed people who are unable to pay rent and increasingly at risk of going hungry .
Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez : “ We are abdicating our responsibility .
We haven ’ t legislated for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are dying .
Thousands of people are dying every day .
And we aren ’ t going — and we ’ re talking about coming back .
And every time we pass one of these bills , we ’ re hearing that the real solution is coming in the next bill — and in the next bill and the next bill .
And at some point we have to raise our hands and say , 'When is the solution coming ? '
Because two months of rent are going to pass by before @ @ @ @ @ @ @ real bill.
” The House and Senate have extended their recesses another two weeks — until May 4 .
Progressive lawmakers are demanding $ 2,000 monthly payments to all U.S. households and open enrollment in Medicare for uninsured and unemployed people , when lawmakers take up another round of funding , the so-called phase four coronavirus bill .

In the United States, the epicenter of the pandemic, the death toll from COVID-19 has topped 45,000. On Tuesday, the Senate approved $484 billion in new coronavirus aid on a voice vote, with many senators remaining at home due to the pandemic.
The bill adds another $310 billion to the Paycheck Protection Program providing loans to small businesses, another $75 billion for hospitals, $25 billion for testing and $60 billion for emergency disaster loans and grants. The House is expected to vote on the legislation today. The bill provides no new stimulus checks for U.S. households, no additional money for food stamps, no limits on fossil fuel bailouts, no funds for election security, no bailout for the U.S. Postal Service and no additional funds for hard-hit state and local governments.
Democratic Congressmember Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez told MSNBC Tuesday that lawmakers are failing to provide for millions of unemployed people who are unable to pay rent and increasingly at risk of going hungry.
Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: “We are abdicating our responsibility. We haven’t legislated for a month, and thousands of people are dying. Thousands of people are dying every day. And we aren’t going — and we’re talking about coming back. And every time we pass one of these bills, we’re hearing that the real solution is coming in the next bill — and in the next bill and the next bill. And at some point we have to raise our hands and say, 'When is the solution coming?' Because two months of rent are going to pass by before we’re actually even entertaining a real bill.”
The House and Senate have extended their recesses another two weeks — until May 4. Progressive lawmakers are demanding $2,000 monthly payments to all U.S. households and open enrollment in Medicare for uninsured and unemployed people, when lawmakers take up another round of funding, the so-called phase four coronavirus bill.


democracynow--2020-04-23--Global Health Doctor: Hire 1000s of Contact Tracers to Stop COVID-19, Save Lives and the Economy

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
, democracynow.org , The Quarantine Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman , with Nermeen Shaikh .
COVID-19 has infected more than 2.6 million people around the world , killed at least 183,000 people worldwide .
These figures don ’ t anywhere reflect actually the proper numbers , because of the lack of testing and lots of inaccuracy .
The head of the World Health Organization warned Wednesday that most of the world ’ s population still @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it could continue to spread for a very long time .
AMY GOODMAN : The World Health Organization recommends social distancing to control the spread of the virus .
But these measures are nearly impossible for the poor in many countries , where families share single-room dwellings and lack running water to wash their hands .
Many have limited or no access to life-saving medical facilities .
This comes as new efforts are underway not just to slow down but to stop the deadly spread of COVID-19 with contact tracing — finding who @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , so they can get tested and isolated and treatment .
Well , here in the United States , in Massachusetts , they ’ re investing $ 44 million to hire and train a thousand people to call contacts and inform them they ’ ve possibly been exposed .
Participating in testing and isolation is voluntary .
For more , we ’ re joined by someone who ’ s playing a key role in this effort : Dr. Joia Mukherjee , chief medical officer at Partners in Health , a Boston-based nonprofit known @ @ @ @ @ @ @ around the world .
They have also run contact tracing projects , including for Ebola in West Africa .
Dr. Mukherjee is joining us from Brookline , Massachusetts .
She has just recently returned from Sierra Leone and Liberia .
Welcome to Democracy Now !
It ’ s great to have you with us , Dr. Mukherjee .
Partners in Health is well known around the world , in Haiti , in Africa , for the kind of work you do .
We want to talk about the contact tracing project you have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ talk about what we ’ re facing right now in Africa , what people there are expecting and are going through right now .
DR. JOIA MUKHERJEE : Yes .
So , thank you very much for having me on today , Amy .
And thank you so much for highlighting the need to pay attention to this epidemic in some of the world ’ s most impoverished countries .
In Africa , in Asia , in Latin America , this kind of social distancing that we have now in the United States @ @ @ @ @ @ @ lockdown , really is intolerable for very poor people .
You have to have the material means to quarantine or isolate .
It ’ s a privilege to be able to have a home , enough food , a fridge to stock .
And so , we ’ re exceptionally worried about the impact just the measures alone will have on the poor here at home in the U.S. , as well as around the world .
But there are many countries , particularly on the African continent , that are doing a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we did in the United States .
And I just recently got off the phone with colleagues in Rwanda .
And in that country , they have been so serious about contact tracing , quarantine , isolation , government support of people in quarantine and isolation with food and housing , that from the first case to one month later , they only had 134 cases .
And that ’ s with lots of testing , so that ’ s not an underestimate .
That ’ s with thousands and thousands of tests @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on is really the hope for impoverished countries .
This is happening in Liberia , in Sierra Leone .
And you mentioned I had just gotten back from those countries , where , in February , I was screened with temperature , my phone number , where I was going .
In February , mid-February , I returned to JFK , and absolutely nothing .
So , these countries are at least aware and experienced in cataclysm , and they are really investing in those upfront strategies , which we did not in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And , Dr. Joia Mukherjee , you mentioned , of course , that these measures themselves can be and have been extremely dangerous for very large numbers of people in the world .
And just to be clear , I mean , the International Labour Organization has said that 2 billion people around the world are dependent on daily wages , and if they ’ re not able to go to work , often that means that they won ’ t be able to eat .
So , of course , it is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ lethal pandemic are addressed .
I want to ask you about a specific proposal that was put forward by an Indian epidemiologist , who said , of course , that no country , no poor country , can afford this prolonged period of lockdown .
He says you may be able to reach a point of herd immunity without infection really catching up with the elderly , who are the most vulnerable , and when herd immunity reaches a sufficient number , the outbreak will stop .
Could you respond to that , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Yeah .
I think the talk of herd immunity is extremely dangerous and nihilistic .
I think we can do better as humanity .
We do not know , first of all , whether immunity is lasting in COVID , one .
Two , we don ’ t know what proportion of the population would have to be immune to have what we call herd immunity .
It may be as high as 60 % .
To have 60 % of the population infected would — and we know that about 4 % @ @ @ @ @ @ @ people die .
So that ’ s a death toll in the hundreds and hundreds of millions .
I think that is an unacceptable moral choice for us to make .
I think , rather , we should employ people to be contact tracers , to deliver the food to the sick .
We should be ramping up PPE to protect people to do their work .
If we harness the trillions of dollars that are needed right now to prop up the stock market and the global economy toward creating jobs that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be synergized with the needs of the vulnerable to end the epidemic , that is a far better moral choice , and it ’ s probably a faster choice to end the epidemic , certainly , and a much more moral choice than herd immunity .
I think herd immunity is dangerous .
AMY GOODMAN : Of course , Boris Johnson followed that route at the beginning , before he got sick , his partner got sick .
Now Britain is way behind when it comes to testing and having the proper gear @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I wanted to ask you about Massachusetts , Dr. Mukherjee — AMY GOODMAN : — and what you ’ re doing there .
We only have a few minutes .
Explain what contact tracing is and how you ’ re planning to carry it out .
DR. JOIA MUKHERJEE : So , we have already hired and trained and paid 750 contact tracers to add to the function that the Department of Public Health is doing .
All department of public health do contact tracing .
It ’ s a staple .
But @ @ @ @ @ @ @ scale of this epidemic .
And we have gutted our public health programs over 40 years in the United States and around the world as part of the neoliberal project .
So we are trying to amplify and augment what departments of public health do — contact the people who are infected , go through the list of people they ’ ve been in close contact with , inform those people .
And then it needs to be paired with support , social and material support , to isolate and quarantine .
We @ @ @ @ @ @ @ But how does this work specifically ?
I mean , you ’ re saying something like 300,000 people would be needed in the United States to do this .
AMY GOODMAN : And you actually go to a patient , and you say , “ Who have you been with over the last ” — what ?
DR. JOIA MUKHERJEE : Yeah .
So , since the time you were symptomatic and a couple of days before .
And what we know is that with social distancing , this is a bit easier @ @ @ @ @ @ @ far , in the two weeks we ’ ve been doing this , only has a couple of contacts , because people are adhering to social distancing .
So , what you can do then is contact those people and then try to keep them safe .
So , for example , in my situation , my family , I live with my mom , who ’ s older , and so we would want to — if I had been in contact with someone , so I was out to do grocery @ @ @ @ @ @ @ contact with someone , I would need to quarantine , which is different than social distancing .
It means not sharing a bathroom .
It means washing down all the counters , etc .
And so , if I could not do that , then I would need a safe place to quarantine .
And here in Massachusetts , we ’ re looking at dormitories , hotel rooms .
And many people want to do this .
I mean , many health workers are begging for these kind of safe quarantine places , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ days as a contact , monitored regularly , fed — right ?
— have access to a cellphone so you can contact your family .
And this is , again , all voluntary .
But this is part of how we do epidemic control .
This is how we fought Ebola .
Fourteen days of tracing and monitoring , and then you can be released .
But that way , you don ’ t infect your closest contacts , because most of this infection is spread through very close contacts — family members @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , we want to thank you so much , Dr. Joia Mukherjee , for being with us , infectious disease specialist , associate professor of global health at Harvard Medical School , chief medical officer for Partners in Health .
That does it for our broadcast .
If you want to get our daily quarantine report , you can send the word “ democracynow ” — one word — to 66866 .
That ’ s “ democracynow ” to — just text it to 66866 .
Or you can go to our website @ @ @ @ @ @ @ quarantine report there .
Also on our website , all of our coverage of this pandemic .
Democracy Now !
at the epicenter of the pandemic here in New York City .
Democracy Now !
is working with as few people on site as possible .
The majority of our amazing team is working from home .
Democracy Now !
is produced with Renée Feltz , Mike Burke , Deena Guzder , Libby Rainey , Carla Wills , Tami Woronoff , Charina Nadura , Sam Alcoff , Tey-Marie Astudillo , John Hamilton , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Contreras and María Taracena .
Our general manager is Julie Crosby .
Special thanks to Becca Staley , Miriam Barnard , Denis Moynihan , Paul Powell , Mike DiFilippo , Miguel Nogueira , Hugh Gran , David Prude and Dennis McCormick .
I ’ m Amy Goodman , with Nermeen Shaikh .
Again , our website is democracynow.org , where you can see our podcast , listen to our audio podcast and read all the transcripts of all our shows .
Thanks so much , and be safe .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The Quarantine Report. I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh. COVID-19 has infected more than 2.6 million people around the world, killed at least 183,000 people worldwide. These figures don’t anywhere reflect actually the proper numbers, because of the lack of testing and lots of inaccuracy. The head of the World Health Organization warned Wednesday that most of the world’s population still remains susceptible to the coronavirus, and it could continue to spread for a very long time.
TEDROS ADHANOM GHEBREYESUS: Most of the epidemics in Western Europe appear to be stable or declining. Although numbers are low, we see worrying upward trends in Africa, Central and South America and Eastern Europe. Most countries are still in the early stages of their epidemics. And some that were affected early in the pandemic are now starting to see a resurgence in cases. Make no mistake: We have a long way to go. This virus will be with us for a long time.
AMY GOODMAN: The World Health Organization recommends social distancing to control the spread of the virus. But these measures are nearly impossible for the poor in many countries, where families share single-room dwellings and lack running water to wash their hands. Many have limited or no access to life-saving medical facilities.
This comes as new efforts are underway not just to slow down but to stop the deadly spread of COVID-19 with contact tracing — finding who infected patients have been in contact with, so they can get tested and isolated and treatment. Well, here in the United States, in Massachusetts, they’re investing $44 million to hire and train a thousand people to call contacts and inform them they’ve possibly been exposed. Participating in testing and isolation is voluntary.
For more, we’re joined by someone who’s playing a key role in this effort: Dr. Joia Mukherjee, chief medical officer at Partners in Health, a Boston-based nonprofit known for its work in fighting infectious disease around the world. They have also run contact tracing projects, including for Ebola in West Africa. Dr. Mukherjee is joining us from Brookline, Massachusetts. She has just recently returned from Sierra Leone and Liberia.
Welcome to Democracy Now! It’s great to have you with us, Dr. Mukherjee. Partners in Health is well known around the world, in Haiti, in Africa, for the kind of work you do. We want to talk about the contact tracing project you have going in Massachusetts. But first, talk about what we’re facing right now in Africa, what people there are expecting and are going through right now.
DR. JOIA MUKHERJEE: Yes. So, thank you very much for having me on today, Amy. And thank you so much for highlighting the need to pay attention to this epidemic in some of the world’s most impoverished countries.
In Africa, in Asia, in Latin America, this kind of social distancing that we have now in the United States, which is also gearing toward a lockdown, really is intolerable for very poor people. You have to have the material means to quarantine or isolate. It’s a privilege to be able to have a home, enough food, a fridge to stock. And so, we’re exceptionally worried about the impact just the measures alone will have on the poor here at home in the U.S., as well as around the world.
But there are many countries, particularly on the African continent, that are doing a lot more on the preventive side than we did in the United States. And I just recently got off the phone with colleagues in Rwanda. And in that country, they have been so serious about contact tracing, quarantine, isolation, government support of people in quarantine and isolation with food and housing, that from the first case to one month later, they only had 134 cases. And that’s with lots of testing, so that’s not an underestimate. That’s with thousands and thousands of tests.
So, focusing on that early on is really the hope for impoverished countries. This is happening in Liberia, in Sierra Leone. And you mentioned I had just gotten back from those countries, where, in February, I was screened with temperature, my phone number, where I was going. In February, mid-February, I returned to JFK, and absolutely nothing. So, these countries are at least aware and experienced in cataclysm, and they are really investing in those upfront strategies, which we did not in the United States.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Dr. Joia Mukherjee, you mentioned, of course, that these measures themselves can be and have been extremely dangerous for very large numbers of people in the world. And just to be clear, I mean, the International Labour Organization has said that 2 billion people around the world are dependent on daily wages, and if they’re not able to go to work, often that means that they won’t be able to eat. So, of course, it is imperative that other means of addressing this lethal pandemic are addressed.
I want to ask you about a specific proposal that was put forward by an Indian epidemiologist, who said, of course, that no country, no poor country, can afford this prolonged period of lockdown. He says you may be able to reach a point of herd immunity without infection really catching up with the elderly, who are the most vulnerable, and when herd immunity reaches a sufficient number, the outbreak will stop. Could you respond to that, Dr. Mukherjee?
DR. JOIA MUKHERJEE: Yeah. I think the talk of herd immunity is extremely dangerous and nihilistic. I think we can do better as humanity. We do not know, first of all, whether immunity is lasting in COVID, one. Two, we don’t know what proportion of the population would have to be immune to have what we call herd immunity. It may be as high as 60%. To have 60% of the population infected would — and we know that about 4%, 2 to 4%, of people die. So that’s a death toll in the hundreds and hundreds of millions. I think that is an unacceptable moral choice for us to make.
I think, rather, we should employ people to be contact tracers, to deliver the food to the sick. We should be ramping up PPE to protect people to do their work. If we harness the trillions of dollars that are needed right now to prop up the stock market and the global economy toward creating jobs that would actually end the epidemic and could be synergized with the needs of the vulnerable to end the epidemic, that is a far better moral choice, and it’s probably a faster choice to end the epidemic, certainly, and a much more moral choice than herd immunity. I think herd immunity is dangerous.
AMY GOODMAN: Of course, Boris Johnson followed that route at the beginning, before he got sick, his partner got sick. Now Britain is way behind when it comes to testing and having the proper gear available for doctors and nurses. But I wanted to ask you about Massachusetts, Dr. Mukherjee —
DR. JOIA MUKHERJEE: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: — and what you’re doing there. We only have a few minutes. Explain what contact tracing is and how you’re planning to carry it out.
DR. JOIA MUKHERJEE: So, we have already hired and trained and paid 750 contact tracers to add to the function that the Department of Public Health is doing. All department of public health do contact tracing. It’s a staple. But they are unmatched by the speed and scale of this epidemic. And we have gutted our public health programs over 40 years in the United States and around the world as part of the neoliberal project. So we are trying to amplify and augment what departments of public health do — contact the people who are infected, go through the list of people they’ve been in close contact with, inform those people. And then it needs to be paired with support, social and material support, to isolate and quarantine. We’re working —
AMY GOODMAN: But how does this work specifically? I mean, you’re saying something like 300,000 people would be needed in the United States to do this.
DR. JOIA MUKHERJEE: Yes, yes.
AMY GOODMAN: And you actually go to a patient, and you say, “Who have you been with over the last” — what?
DR. JOIA MUKHERJEE: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: And —
DR. JOIA MUKHERJEE: Yeah. So, since the time you were symptomatic and a couple of days before. And what we know is that with social distancing, this is a bit easier. Our average person in Massachusetts so far, in the two weeks we’ve been doing this, only has a couple of contacts, because people are adhering to social distancing. So, what you can do then is contact those people and then try to keep them safe.
So, for example, in my situation, my family, I live with my mom, who’s older, and so we would want to — if I had been in contact with someone, so I was out to do grocery shopping — if I had been in contact with someone, I would need to quarantine, which is different than social distancing. It means not sharing a bathroom. It means washing down all the counters, etc. And so, if I could not do that, then I would need a safe place to quarantine.
And here in Massachusetts, we’re looking at dormitories, hotel rooms. And many people want to do this. I mean, many health workers are begging for these kind of safe quarantine places, where you would then stay for 14 days as a contact, monitored regularly, fed — right? — have access to a cellphone so you can contact your family. And this is, again, all voluntary. But this is part of how we do epidemic control. This is how we fought Ebola. Fourteen days of tracing and monitoring, and then you can be released. But that way, you don’t infect your closest contacts, because most of this infection is spread through very close contacts — family members, etc.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, we want to thank you so much, Dr. Joia Mukherjee, for being with us, infectious disease specialist, associate professor of global health at Harvard Medical School, chief medical officer for Partners in Health.
That does it for our broadcast. If you want to get our daily quarantine report, you can send the word “democracynow” — one word — to 66866. That’s “democracynow” to — just text it to 66866. Or you can go to our website at democracynow.org and sign up for our quarantine report there. Also on our website, all of our coverage of this pandemic. Democracy Now! at the epicenter of the pandemic here in New York City.
Democracy Now! is working with as few people on site as possible. The majority of our amazing team is working from home. Democracy Now! is produced with Renée Feltz, Mike Burke, Deena Guzder, Libby Rainey, Carla Wills, Tami Woronoff, Charina Nadura, Sam Alcoff, Tey-Marie Astudillo, John Hamilton, Robby Karran, Hany Massoud, Adriano Contreras and María Taracena. Our general manager is Julie Crosby. Special thanks to Becca Staley, Miriam Barnard, Denis Moynihan, Paul Powell, Mike DiFilippo, Miguel Nogueira, Hugh Gran, David Prude and Dennis McCormick. I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh. Again, our website is democracynow.org, where you can see our podcast, listen to our audio podcast and read all the transcripts of all our shows. Thanks so much, and be safe.