democracynow--2020-05-15--Democracy At Stake: "Faithless Electors" SCOTUS Case Tests If Electoral College Members Can Go Rogue

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
, democracynow.org , The Quarantine Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman .
For the first time in its history , the Supreme Court is holding oral arguments remotely by phone , and the audio is available live to the public , leading to some unprecedented moments , including , oh , a live toilet flush .
AMY GOODMAN : Well , on Wednesday , the Supreme Court heard arguments in a case that could shape the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ states have laws requiring members of their Electoral College to pledge that they ’ ll support the winner of the state ’ s popular vote .
But in 2016 , some electors went rogue .
One of Colorado ’ s nine electors , Michael Baca , attempted to cast his Electoral College ballot for Republican John Kasich instead of Democrat Hillary Clinton .
Kasich won Colorado ’ s presidential election over Republican Donald Trump .
Then , the Colorado secretary of state at the time , a Republican , removed Baca as an @ @ @ @ @ @ @ other states that has a law requiring presidential electors to vote for the candidate who wins the state ’ s presidential election popular vote .
Baca sued Colorado .
The Denver-based 10th U.S .
Circuit Court of Appeals ruled his removal was unconstitutional .
The case then made its way to the Supreme Court on Wednesday .
This is Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas questioning attorney Jason Harrow , who argued on behalf of the Colorado electors .
AMY GOODMAN : The Supreme Court also heard a related case Wednesday from Washington state @ @ @ @ @ @ @ fines for three presidential electors who also tried to block Trump from becoming president by backing former U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell .
Well , to put all of this in perspective , a swing by just 10 electors would have been enough to change the outcomes in five of the previous 58 presidential elections .
For more , we go to Denver , Colorado , where we ’ re joined by Colorado Secretary of State Jena Griswold .
Welcome back to Democracy Now !
Can you start off by talking about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and what is at stake with the Supreme Court decision ?
SECRETARY OF STATE JENA GRISWOLD : Sure .
Good morning .
Well , a faithless elector is an elector who decides to vote their own will , following their own agenda , and effectively disenfranchises American citizens .
Here in Colorado and in the majority of states , the law says that presidential electors must carry out the will of the people and must cast their electoral ballot for whomever wins the state ’ s popular vote .
And what is at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of our democracy .
Can a couple unelected , unaccountable electors disenfranchise every American in the presidential election ?
Or do Americans truly have their voices heard in our presidential elections , and their ballots counted ?
And does that mean something ?
And as secretary of state , I think it should mean something .
AMY GOODMAN : So , talk about the two cases , your case in Colorado , who Baca is , and also the Washington state case , and how you think they both went .
SECRETARY OF @ @ @ @ @ @ @ cases went extremely well for the states .
The Supreme Court really focused on the practical effects of allowing electors to undermine American citizens .
And they really honed in on one of my top concerns , and that ’ s corruption and bribery .
Under our current 10th Circuit holding , effectively , as secretary of state , someone could walk up with a bag of money , hand it to the elector right in front of me , and I would not have the power to remove that elector .
And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are amplified , knowing that Russia is trying to undermine our democracy .
The idea of blackmail — we all know how easy it is to do a deepfake video or search information on folks and blackmail them or coerce them to vote how you want them to vote .
So , the ability to enforce state law , the ability to ensure that a state ’ s electoral ballot goes for whoever wins the state ’ s actual election , is paramount .
AMY GOODMAN : So , I want to go @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Jason Harrow , who argued on behalf of the Colorado electors , Michael Baca , Polly Baca and Robert Nemanich .
AMY GOODMAN : So , if you can explain that , Jena Griswold ?
SECRETARY OF STATE JENA GRISWOLD : Sure .
I think that really highlights the preposterous nature of the opponents ’ argument .
The idea that the only requirement on electors is that they cast their ballot for a living person is — and that they can disenfranchise every single American , they can take bribes , and they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is just not reasonable .
Not only did the court really hone in on the ridiculousness of possibly voting for Frodo Baggins — by the way , I would vote for She-Ra or Wonder Woman , though I really like The Lord of the Rings — just really highlights the practical effect of this case .
Outside of concerns for bribery , various justices really honed in on what this does to presidential campaigns .
If the states were to lose , presidential campaigns and then Americans ’ votes would just be advisory @ @ @ @ @ @ @ second wave of campaigns just for electors , so presidential candidates and campaigns focused on trying to flip electors .
And the justices , rightly or wrongly so , didn ’ t seem to want that to happen .
More campaigning for the president wasn ’ t something that really seemed to strike well with them .
And then , on top of that , there was a great argument from the Washington solicitor general that basically was along the lines of , once Americans have the right to vote , you can @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to take away all of our voices .
So , overall , I was very happy with the Supreme Court justices ’ lines of questioning , and I think it bodes well for the states .
AMY GOODMAN : Well , I want to thank you very much , Jena Griswold , for being with us .
Jena Griswold is secretary of state of Colorado .
But I wanted to ask you to stay with us for this next segment — AMY GOODMAN : — when we come back , because Colorado plays @ @ @ @ @ @ @ especially when it comes to mail-in ballots .
“ Can Democracy Survive the Pandemic ?
” We ’ ll also be joined by New York Times Magazine writer Emily Bazelon .
Stay with us .
AMY GOODMAN : “ Greenwaves ” by Secret Garden .
Dancing is longtime Democracy Now !
engineer Mike DiFilippo alongside his partner Regina Calandra in quarantine .
But like most of the Democracy Now !
staff , while they are in isolation , they are still here with us in spirit .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The Quarantine Report. I’m Amy Goodman. For the first time in its history, the Supreme Court is holding oral arguments remotely by phone, and the audio is available live to the public, leading to some unprecedented moments, including, oh, a live toilet flush.
ROMAN MARTINEZ: And what the FCC has said is that when [toilet flushing] the subject matter of the call ranges to such topics, then the call is transformed.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, on Wednesday, the Supreme Court heard arguments in a case that could shape the outcome of future presidential elections.
Many states have laws requiring members of their Electoral College to pledge that they’ll support the winner of the state’s popular vote. But in 2016, some electors went rogue. One of Colorado’s nine electors, Michael Baca, attempted to cast his Electoral College ballot for Republican John Kasich instead of Democrat Hillary Clinton. Kasich won Colorado’s presidential election over Republican Donald Trump. Then, the Colorado secretary of state at the time, a Republican, removed Baca as an elector.
Colorado is one of 31 other states that has a law requiring presidential electors to vote for the candidate who wins the state’s presidential election popular vote. Baca sued Colorado. The Denver-based 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled his removal was unconstitutional. The case then made its way to the Supreme Court on Wednesday.
This is Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas questioning attorney Jason Harrow, who argued on behalf of the Colorado electors.
JUSTICE CLARENCE THOMAS: The elector, who had promised to vote for the winning candidate, could suddenly say, “You know, I’m going to vote for Frodo Baggins. And that’s — I really like Frodo Baggins.” And you’re saying, under your system, you can’t do anything about that.
JASON HARROW: Your Honor, I think there is something to be done, because that would be to vote for a nonperson, you know, no matter how big a fan many people are of Frodo Baggins. That said, I do think the important point is that the framers hashed out these competing concerns. They hashed it out in Philadelphia in 1787. They understood the stakes, and they said, among these competing hypotheticals, electors are best placed to make the ultimate selection. That hasn’t changed, Justice Thomas.
AMY GOODMAN: The Supreme Court also heard a related case Wednesday from Washington state on whether it could issue $1,000 fines for three presidential electors who also tried to block Trump from becoming president by backing former U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell. Well, to put all of this in perspective, a swing by just 10 electors would have been enough to change the outcomes in five of the previous 58 presidential elections.
For more, we go to Denver, Colorado, where we’re joined by Colorado Secretary of State Jena Griswold.
Welcome back to Democracy Now! Can you start off by talking about what exactly a faithless elector is, and what is at stake with the Supreme Court decision?
SECRETARY OF STATE JENA GRISWOLD: Sure. Good morning. Well, a faithless elector is an elector who decides to vote their own will, following their own agenda, and effectively disenfranchises American citizens. Here in Colorado and in the majority of states, the law says that presidential electors must carry out the will of the people and must cast their electoral ballot for whomever wins the state’s popular vote.
And what is at stake in this case is the foundation of our democracy. Can a couple unelected, unaccountable electors disenfranchise every American in the presidential election? Or do Americans truly have their voices heard in our presidential elections, and their ballots counted? And does that mean something? And as secretary of state, I think it should mean something.
AMY GOODMAN: So, talk about the two cases, your case in Colorado, who Baca is, and also the Washington state case, and how you think they both went.
SECRETARY OF STATE JENA GRISWOLD: I think the cases went extremely well for the states. The Supreme Court really focused on the practical effects of allowing electors to undermine American citizens. And they really honed in on one of my top concerns, and that’s corruption and bribery. Under our current 10th Circuit holding, effectively, as secretary of state, someone could walk up with a bag of money, hand it to the elector right in front of me, and I would not have the power to remove that elector.
And I would just say that these concerns are amplified, knowing that Russia is trying to undermine our democracy. The idea of blackmail — we all know how easy it is to do a deepfake video or search information on folks and blackmail them or coerce them to vote how you want them to vote. So, the ability to enforce state law, the ability to ensure that a state’s electoral ballot goes for whoever wins the state’s actual election, is paramount.
AMY GOODMAN: So, I want to go to Chief Justice John Roberts questioning attorney Jason Harrow, who argued on behalf of the Colorado electors, Michael Baca, Polly Baca and Robert Nemanich.
CHIEF JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS: I take your answer, when I ask for limits, to be that they must be allowed to vote in their discretion, that you don’t have any limits.
JASON HARROW: Your Honor, there are no limits in that voting ballot, so long as the ballot is for a person. The 12th Amendment says they must vote for a person. You can imagine — indeed, you don’t have to imagine that if —
CHIEF JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS: But what are they supposed to — like, not a giraffe? I mean, of course they have to vote for a person.
JASON HARROW: Your Honor, Congress concluded in 1872 that the Greeley vote wasn’t a vote for a person, because it was a vote for a nonliving person. I’m sorry if I was unclear. That’s the situation that I meant.
AMY GOODMAN: So, if you can explain that, Jena Griswold?
SECRETARY OF STATE JENA GRISWOLD: Sure. I think that really highlights the preposterous nature of the opponents’ argument. The idea that the only requirement on electors is that they cast their ballot for a living person is — and that they can disenfranchise every single American, they can take bribes, and they can throw this country into chaos, is just not reasonable. Not only did the court really hone in on the ridiculousness of possibly voting for Frodo Baggins — by the way, I would vote for She-Ra or Wonder Woman, though I really like The Lord of the Rings — just really highlights the practical effect of this case.
Outside of concerns for bribery, various justices really honed in on what this does to presidential campaigns. If the states were to lose, presidential campaigns and then Americans’ votes would just be advisory. And then we could see a second wave of campaigns just for electors, so presidential candidates and campaigns focused on trying to flip electors. And the justices, rightly or wrongly so, didn’t seem to want that to happen. More campaigning for the president wasn’t something that really seemed to strike well with them.
And then, on top of that, there was a great argument from the Washington solicitor general that basically was along the lines of, once Americans have the right to vote, you cannot take that away by allowing electors to take away all of our voices. So, overall, I was very happy with the Supreme Court justices’ lines of questioning, and I think it bodes well for the states.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, I want to thank you very much, Jena Griswold, for being with us. Jena Griswold is secretary of state of Colorado. But I wanted to ask you to stay with us for this next segment —
SECRETARY OF STATE JENA GRISWOLD: Sure.
AMY GOODMAN: — when we come back, because Colorado plays an interesting role in the elections, especially when it comes to mail-in ballots. “Can Democracy Survive the Pandemic?” We’ll also be joined by New York Times Magazine writer Emily Bazelon. Stay with us.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: “Greenwaves” by Secret Garden. Dancing is longtime Democracy Now! engineer Mike DiFilippo alongside his partner Regina Calandra in quarantine. But like most of the Democracy Now! staff, while they are in isolation, they are still here with us in spirit.


democracynow--2020-05-15--"The Wuhan of the Americas": U.S. Deports COVID-19-Positive Immigrants to Haiti & Guatemala

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : We turn now to look at how the U.S. has continued to deport thousands of people during the coronavirus pandemic , causing a dangerous spread of COVID-19 to Central America and the Caribbean .
In Guatemala , at least 117 people deported from the U.S. have tested positive for the virus as of May 4th , making up some 15 % of Guatemala ’ s cases .
Guatemala had temporarily suspended deportations from the U.S. after dozens of deported immigrants on a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ but allowed deportations to resume under the promise of stringent testing .
But last week , someone who was deported after testing negative was confirmed COVID-19-positive after arriving in Guatemala .
Guatemala ’ s health minister , Hugo Monroy , has called the U.S. “ the Wuhan of the Americas.
” On Monday , Immigration and Customs Enforcement reversed plans to deport five immigrants who tested positive for COVID-19 , after it was reported on in the media .
A deportation flight from San Antonio , Texas , to Port-au-Prince , Haiti , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sent to hotels to quarantine at the Haitian government ’ s expense upon arrival .
The same day , Florida Democratic Congresswoman Frederica Wilson introduced the Haitian Deportation Relief Act , which calls for the suspension of deportations to Haiti , saying they are , quote , “ tantamount to a death sentence for Haitians who are living with compromised water and sanitation systems and do not have access to the sanitation measures we ’ ve undertaken in the United States , ” unquote .
This comes as calls to halt all deportations @ @ @ @ @ @ @ growing .
Well , for more , we ’ re joined by two guests .
In Miami , Florida , Edwidge Danticat is with us .
She ’ s the Haitian American novelist , author of a number of books , including The Art of Death : Writing the Final Story and The Farming of Bones , which won an American Book Award .
Her piece in the Miami Herald is headlined “ U.S .
deportations to Haiti during coronavirus pandemic are 'unconscionable . '
” And in The New Yorker magazine , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Ripple Effects of the Coronavirus on Immigrant Communities.
” Also joining us , from Guatemala City , is journalist José Alejandro García Escobar .
He ’ s a reporter with the independent media outlet Agencia Ocote .
His most recent work in Guatemala highlights the health and economic impacts faced by undocumented Guatemalan workers living in the U.S. in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic .
We welcome you both to Democracy Now !
Edwidge Danticat , let ’ s begin with you .
Can you respond to the U.S. deporting COVID-positive Haitians @ @ @ @ @ @ @ calling for ?
EDWIDGE DANTICAT : Well , these deportations are obviously a threat to Haiti and a threat to the entire region .
Two hundred — nearly 200 organizations , professionals in healthcare , people who work with immigrant communities , have called for the administration to stop these deportations and find alternatives to detention that are contingent with COVID-19 regulations .
But these deportations have continued .
And since in April , when the first set began , we ’ ve had three people test positive for COVID-19 after they ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s a disgrace .
It ’ s dangerous , really , for the health of the communities that these folks are being returned to .
And so , we are , as a community , as people whose loved ones are affected or will continue to be affected by this , are calling for the deportations to stop .
AMY GOODMAN : And what is the response of the U.S. government ?
EDWIDGE DANTICAT : Well , initially — yesterday , for example , I texted with one of the wives of one @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and in the end didn ’ t end up on the flight .
But she said that he was taken out of the quarantine where he was and was not retested , for example , before he was returned back to the general population while he was in detention .
ICE has said that they would test people before they were returned — they were deported , but asymptomatic people can still spread the virus , obviously , and people have tested positive once they ’ ve arrived in Guatemala , for example @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , in Haiti .
AMY GOODMAN : In your piece in The New Yorker magazine , Edwidge , you cite a common saying , that whenever Haiti sneezes , Miami catches a cold .
But in the midst of this pandemic , it clearly is the case that the reverse is true .
Can you talk about the pandemic ’ s effect on Haitians where you live , in Miami , as well as this — what this means for their loved ones at home ?
EDWIDGE DANTICAT : Well , we ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a community where people work as home health aides or in the tourism industry or in the service industry or hospitality industry .
And so many people have been furloughed or have lost their jobs .
And Haiti counts a lot on remittances .
A lot of people who are working here are working a job for — you know , like my father was , when I was a kid , was working one job to support himself and another job to support someone back home .
So , this will also @ @ @ @ @ @ @ which people who have lost their jobs here or who might have fallen ill — we ’ ve had a lot of COVID cases , for example , in the population in New York .
And so , that will certainly have effects on the economy , on the ability of people in Haiti , who are already unable to shelter in place , who have to work in the informal economy — this will also reduce their ability to feed themselves , because a lot of family members here also are affected @ @ @ @ @ @ @ then lead to greater hardship , financially and medically , back home .
AMY GOODMAN : Edwidge Danticat , you also talk about Haiti ’ s history with what you ’ ve called “ past collisions with microbes.
” Talk about what happened after the earthquake a decade ago .
EDWIDGE DANTICAT : Well , after the earthquake , when it seemed like this was the worst thing that could possibly happen , when 300,000 people had been killed and close to 2 million people were homeless , you had the United Nations @ @ @ @ @ @ @ central rivers in Haiti , causing a cholera epidemic that killed 10,000 people and infected close to a million people .
Now , the U.N. has never quite taken the proper responsibility .
Recently , some of their own monitors have come out and said that they have not done enough in terms of compensating families or creating health structures .
So , the U.N. and the cholera epidemic has left Haiti even more vulnerable in terms of being able to deal with this current pandemic .
AMY GOODMAN : I wanted to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ discussion , from Guatemala City .
If you could talk about what happens to Guatemalans who are deported from the United States to Guatemala City ?
JOSÉ ALEJANDRO GARCÍA ESCOBAR : Well , recently , it has started that a new shelter has opened up really close by to the airport , so people have been moving the deportees to that shelter .
However , on May 13th , a group of 71 persons — 71 people were moved to that shelter , and they only spent a couple of days there .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ tested and that they were OK .
But still , they were only there for a couple of days , and they were moved to their original cities .
AMY GOODMAN : And talk about what is the scope of the problem .
How has this happened , the Guatemalans who are being deported from the United States ?
The response of Guatemalans where you are , in Guatemala City ?
The response of the government , who stopped these deportations but then has allowed them to resume ?
JOSÉ ALEJANDRO GARCÍA ESCOBAR @ @ @ @ @ @ @ there was little to no information .
We got our first confirmed cases in mid-March , and there were barely any information about what was going to happen to immigration , to deportees ’ flights .
But as cases began on the rise , suddenly people had to address this issue .
As you said during the introduction , immigration stopped the deportation flights for a couple of times to strengthen the measures .
Then there was that awful flight on April 15th , when there were up to 25 % of all @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have been moving up and down with this issue .
The government has rarely addressed it .
This has been mainly from immigration , from the immigration department here in Guatemala .
But still , you have a lot of people infected going back to small communities with little to no access to health facilities .
So it has been creating a great impact in the country , bringing people infected with the coronavirus .
AMY GOODMAN : You say that the U.S. is being referred to now in Guatemala as “ the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ALEJANDRO GARCÍA ESCOBAR : Yes .
This was a quote made by Hugo Monroy , our health minister .
AMY GOODMAN : If you could talk about what the Guatemalan government is doing to hold the U.S. accountable ?
And if you can talk about the latest people who have been deported ?
One , the U.S. said , was COVID-negative , but when he arrived in Guatemala City , he was positive .
JOSÉ ALEJANDRO GARCÍA ESCOBAR : Well , the couple of times that the flights had stopped , allegedly , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the testings in the U.S. to make sure that the people that were getting deported — were getting deported were healthy , and they wouldn ’ t infect anyone in Guatemala .
Obviously , this has not been the case entirely .
We have been getting reports of people coming in with certificates , signed by ICE , saying that they were healthy .
But the certificates that are allowed here in Guatemala , they can be made no longer than 72 hours prior to their deportation .
But people have been coming @ @ @ @ @ @ @ few cases — obviously not as high as the one we got in April 15 , but still , this has been — we still get flights with a couple people infected in the flights .
AMY GOODMAN : José , can you talk about the Guatemalan residents who have been placing white flags outside their homes ?
And talk about the double pandemic , the pandemic that people are deeply concerned about , COVID-19 , and then also the effects of not having jobs , running out of food and money .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ a lot of people in Guatemala rely on informal economy .
I mean people selling stuff in the streets , people selling food in the streets .
So , pretty quickly , as soon as we had our first case and the government began putting on measures , people began losing their jobs , or people began losing their income .
So , rapidly , you would see people out on the streets waving white flags as a signal of they don ’ t have any money , they don ’ t have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ there ’ s a strong coalition of Guatemalans helping other Guatemalans .
The government promised a thousand quetzales , which is a little under $ 200 , for families and small businessmen and small businesswomen .
However , they then mentioned that those benefited from this 1,000 quetzales , they needed to be within the formal economy — informal economy , but they needed to show proof of their taxes .
So , a lot of people don ’ t extend a receipt when they ’ re working out in the streets , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ been getting this .
And just last night , we had these new measures that the city — that the country is closed until Monday morning .
So a lot of people are not going to be allowed out into the streets to go and to receive aid from other Guatemalans , to go to local restaurants who have been helping people who don ’ t have any jobs or food .
So , right now , this weekend is going to be a little chaotic with what happens with these people .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ , the effect on — the healthcare system , overall , in Guatemala , and how difficult it already is , before dealing with the pandemic ?
JOSÉ ALEJANDRO GARCÍA ESCOBAR : Yes .
Just a few days ago , there have been a few developments in the hospitals .
Doctors in hospitals , and nurses , have been out into the streets , outside the hospitals , protesting that they don ’ t have enough material to take care of the patients .
Suddenly , as you mentioned , the health system @ @ @ @ @ @ @ reached a little over 1,300 cases , active cases , here in Guatemala , and this has put our health system really on the edge of their seats .
AMY GOODMAN : And let me end with Edwidge Danticat .
The situation with the healthcare system , with the hospitals in Haiti right now ?
EDWIDGE DANTICAT : Well , certainly , there ’ s a medical group that ’ s advising the president , that ’ s come out and said that Haiti is just not ready .
And the deportations are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ don ’ t have these ventilators .
We don ’ t have the beds .
And the more exposure that we ’ re getting from this exportation of the virus , the more dangerous it is for a country that has suffered already so much through other exposures that could have been avoided .
And so , people go to a wedding someplace , and the virus spreads .
And these are called super-spreader events .
These deportations are international super-spreader events and are putting a great deal of lives at risk and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ system that in the — you know , the richest countries have suffered .
Imagine what it would be like in a place , like , that ’ s been so battered and so mistreated , like we have been .
Haitian people are strong , but this is just — this is a lot .
AMY GOODMAN : Well , I want to thank you so much for joining us , Edwidge Danticat , Haitian American novelist — we will link your piece in the [ Miami Herald ] at democracynow.org — @ @ @ @ @ @ @ José Alejandro García Escobar , Guatemalan journalist , speaking to us from Guatemala City .
When we come back , for the first time in history , the Supreme Court is holding its oral arguments remotely .
We ’ ll look at a case they heard Wednesday that could shape the outcome of the future of presidential elections .
And we ’ ll talk about whether democracy can survive the pandemic here in the United States .
Stay with us .
AMY GOODMAN : Rhiannon Giddens , singing the Bill Withers classic “ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ featuring photos and videos taken by friends and family in quarantine and workers in the North Carolina UNC and NewYork-Presbyterian healthcare systems .
Proceeds from the song go to GlobalGiving ’ s Coronavirus Relief Fund .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: We turn now to look at how the U.S. has continued to deport thousands of people during the coronavirus pandemic, causing a dangerous spread of COVID-19 to Central America and the Caribbean. In Guatemala, at least 117 people deported from the U.S. have tested positive for the virus as of May 4th, making up some 15% of Guatemala’s cases. Guatemala had temporarily suspended deportations from the U.S. after dozens of deported immigrants on a single April 13th flight tested positive, but allowed deportations to resume under the promise of stringent testing. But last week, someone who was deported after testing negative was confirmed COVID-19-positive after arriving in Guatemala. Guatemala’s health minister, Hugo Monroy, has called the U.S. “the Wuhan of the Americas.” On Monday, Immigration and Customs Enforcement reversed plans to deport five immigrants who tested positive for COVID-19, after it was reported on in the media.
A deportation flight from San Antonio, Texas, to Port-au-Prince, Haiti, departed with 50 passengers, who were sent to hotels to quarantine at the Haitian government’s expense upon arrival. The same day, Florida Democratic Congresswoman Frederica Wilson introduced the Haitian Deportation Relief Act, which calls for the suspension of deportations to Haiti, saying they are, quote, “tantamount to a death sentence for Haitians who are living with compromised water and sanitation systems and do not have access to the sanitation measures we’ve undertaken in the United States,” unquote. This comes as calls to halt all deportations from the U.S. during the pandemic are growing.
Well, for more, we’re joined by two guests. In Miami, Florida, Edwidge Danticat is with us. She’s the Haitian American novelist, author of a number of books, including The Art of Death: Writing the Final Story and The Farming of Bones, which won an American Book Award. Her piece in the Miami Herald is headlined “U.S. deportations to Haiti during coronavirus pandemic are 'unconscionable.'” And in The New Yorker magazine, she’s written about “The Ripple Effects of the Coronavirus on Immigrant Communities.”
Also joining us, from Guatemala City, is journalist José Alejandro García Escobar. He’s a reporter with the independent media outlet Agencia Ocote. His most recent work in Guatemala highlights the health and economic impacts faced by undocumented Guatemalan workers living in the U.S. in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic.
We welcome you both to Democracy Now! Edwidge Danticat, let’s begin with you. Can you respond to the U.S. deporting COVID-positive Haitians back to Haiti? What are you calling for?
EDWIDGE DANTICAT: Well, these deportations are obviously a threat to Haiti and a threat to the entire region. Two hundred — nearly 200 organizations, professionals in healthcare, people who work with immigrant communities, have called for the administration to stop these deportations and find alternatives to detention that are contingent with COVID-19 regulations. But these deportations have continued. And since in April, when the first set began, we’ve had three people test positive for COVID-19 after they’ve arrived in Haiti. It’s a disgrace. It’s dangerous, really, for the health of the communities that these folks are being returned to. And so, we are, as a community, as people whose loved ones are affected or will continue to be affected by this, are calling for the deportations to stop.
AMY GOODMAN: And what is the response of the U.S. government?
EDWIDGE DANTICAT: Well, initially — yesterday, for example, I texted with one of the wives of one of the men who had tested COVID-positive and in the end didn’t end up on the flight. But she said that he was taken out of the quarantine where he was and was not retested, for example, before he was returned back to the general population while he was in detention. ICE has said that they would test people before they were returned — they were deported, but asymptomatic people can still spread the virus, obviously, and people have tested positive once they’ve arrived in Guatemala, for example, and, in the previous case, in Haiti.
AMY GOODMAN: In your piece in The New Yorker magazine, Edwidge, you cite a common saying, that whenever Haiti sneezes, Miami catches a cold. But in the midst of this pandemic, it clearly is the case that the reverse is true. Can you talk about the pandemic’s effect on Haitians where you live, in Miami, as well as this — what this means for their loved ones at home?
EDWIDGE DANTICAT: Well, we’ve watched — we’re in a community where people work as home health aides or in the tourism industry or in the service industry or hospitality industry. And so many people have been furloughed or have lost their jobs. And Haiti counts a lot on remittances. A lot of people who are working here are working a job for — you know, like my father was, when I was a kid, was working one job to support himself and another job to support someone back home. So, this will also have ripple effects in Haiti, in which people who have lost their jobs here or who might have fallen ill — we’ve had a lot of COVID cases, for example, in the population in New York. And so, that will certainly have effects on the economy, on the ability of people in Haiti, who are already unable to shelter in place, who have to work in the informal economy — this will also reduce their ability to feed themselves, because a lot of family members here also are affected by the COVID-19 financially, which will then lead to greater hardship, financially and medically, back home.
AMY GOODMAN: Edwidge Danticat, you also talk about Haiti’s history with what you’ve called “past collisions with microbes.” Talk about what happened after the earthquake a decade ago.
EDWIDGE DANTICAT: Well, after the earthquake, when it seemed like this was the worst thing that could possibly happen, when 300,000 people had been killed and close to 2 million people were homeless, you had the United Nations come and basically poison one of the central rivers in Haiti, causing a cholera epidemic that killed 10,000 people and infected close to a million people. Now, the U.N. has never quite taken the proper responsibility. Recently, some of their own monitors have come out and said that they have not done enough in terms of compensating families or creating health structures. So, the U.N. and the cholera epidemic has left Haiti even more vulnerable in terms of being able to deal with this current pandemic.
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to bring José Alejandro García Escobar into this discussion, from Guatemala City. If you could talk about what happens to Guatemalans who are deported from the United States to Guatemala City?
JOSÉ ALEJANDRO GARCÍA ESCOBAR: Well, recently, it has started that a new shelter has opened up really close by to the airport, so people have been moving the deportees to that shelter. However, on May 13th, a group of 71 persons — 71 people were moved to that shelter, and they only spent a couple of days there. A spokesperson for migration said they were tested and that they were OK. But still, they were only there for a couple of days, and they were moved to their original cities.
AMY GOODMAN: And talk about what is the scope of the problem. How has this happened, the Guatemalans who are being deported from the United States? The response of Guatemalans where you are, in Guatemala City? The response of the government, who stopped these deportations but then has allowed them to resume?
JOSÉ ALEJANDRO GARCÍA ESCOBAR: Well, at the beginning, there was little to no information. We got our first confirmed cases in mid-March, and there were barely any information about what was going to happen to immigration, to deportees’ flights. But as cases began on the rise, suddenly people had to address this issue.
As you said during the introduction, immigration stopped the deportation flights for a couple of times to strengthen the measures. Then there was that awful flight on April 15th, when there were up to 25% of all deportees tested positive. So, things have been moving up and down with this issue. The government has rarely addressed it. This has been mainly from immigration, from the immigration department here in Guatemala. But still, you have a lot of people infected going back to small communities with little to no access to health facilities. So it has been creating a great impact in the country, bringing people infected with the coronavirus.
AMY GOODMAN: You say that the U.S. is being referred to now in Guatemala as “the Wuhan of the Americas”?
JOSÉ ALEJANDRO GARCÍA ESCOBAR: Yes. This was a quote made by Hugo Monroy, our health minister.
AMY GOODMAN: If you could talk about what the Guatemalan government is doing to hold the U.S. accountable? And if you can talk about the latest people who have been deported? One, the U.S. said, was COVID-negative, but when he arrived in Guatemala City, he was positive.
JOSÉ ALEJANDRO GARCÍA ESCOBAR: Well, the couple of times that the flights had stopped, allegedly, it was to strengthen the measures and the testings in the U.S. to make sure that the people that were getting deported — were getting deported were healthy, and they wouldn’t infect anyone in Guatemala. Obviously, this has not been the case entirely. We have been getting reports of people coming in with certificates, signed by ICE, saying that they were healthy. But the certificates that are allowed here in Guatemala, they can be made no longer than 72 hours prior to their deportation. But people have been coming in, and still we have a few cases — obviously not as high as the one we got in April 15, but still, this has been — we still get flights with a couple people infected in the flights.
AMY GOODMAN: José, can you talk about the Guatemalan residents who have been placing white flags outside their homes? And talk about the double pandemic, the pandemic that people are deeply concerned about, COVID-19, and then also the effects of not having jobs, running out of food and money.
JOSÉ ALEJANDRO GARCÍA ESCOBAR: Well, a lot of people in Guatemala rely on informal economy. I mean people selling stuff in the streets, people selling food in the streets. So, pretty quickly, as soon as we had our first case and the government began putting on measures, people began losing their jobs, or people began losing their income. So, rapidly, you would see people out on the streets waving white flags as a signal of they don’t have any money, they don’t have any food, so Guatemalans might — there’s a strong coalition of Guatemalans helping other Guatemalans.
The government promised a thousand quetzales, which is a little under $200, for families and small businessmen and small businesswomen. However, they then mentioned that those benefited from this 1,000 quetzales, they needed to be within the formal economy — informal economy, but they needed to show proof of their taxes. So, a lot of people don’t extend a receipt when they’re working out in the streets, so a lot of people have not been getting this.
And just last night, we had these new measures that the city — that the country is closed until Monday morning. So a lot of people are not going to be allowed out into the streets to go and to receive aid from other Guatemalans, to go to local restaurants who have been helping people who don’t have any jobs or food. So, right now, this weekend is going to be a little chaotic with what happens with these people.
AMY GOODMAN: In this last minute, the effect on — the healthcare system, overall, in Guatemala, and how difficult it already is, before dealing with the pandemic?
JOSÉ ALEJANDRO GARCÍA ESCOBAR: Yes. Just a few days ago, there have been a few developments in the hospitals. Doctors in hospitals, and nurses, have been out into the streets, outside the hospitals, protesting that they don’t have enough material to take care of the patients. Suddenly, as you mentioned, the health system in Guatemala is overwhelmed. We had reached a little over 1,300 cases, active cases, here in Guatemala, and this has put our health system really on the edge of their seats.
AMY GOODMAN: And let me end with Edwidge Danticat. The situation with the healthcare system, with the hospitals in Haiti right now?
EDWIDGE DANTICAT: Well, certainly, there’s a medical group that’s advising the president, that’s come out and said that Haiti is just not ready. And the deportations are adding fuel to the fire. We don’t have these ventilators. We don’t have the beds. And the more exposure that we’re getting from this exportation of the virus, the more dangerous it is for a country that has suffered already so much through other exposures that could have been avoided.
And so, people go to a wedding someplace, and the virus spreads. And these are called super-spreader events. These deportations are international super-spreader events and are putting a great deal of lives at risk and are offering them up to a medical system that in the — you know, the richest countries have suffered. Imagine what it would be like in a place, like, that’s been so battered and so mistreated, like we have been. Haitian people are strong, but this is just — this is a lot.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, I want to thank you so much for joining us, Edwidge Danticat, Haitian American novelist — we will link your piece in the [Miami Herald] at democracynow.org — speaking to us from Miami, and José Alejandro García Escobar, Guatemalan journalist, speaking to us from Guatemala City.
When we come back, for the first time in history, the Supreme Court is holding its oral arguments remotely. We’ll look at a case they heard Wednesday that could shape the outcome of the future of presidential elections. And we’ll talk about whether democracy can survive the pandemic here in the United States. Stay with us.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: Rhiannon Giddens, singing the Bill Withers classic “Just the Two of Us,” featuring photos and videos taken by friends and family in quarantine and workers in the North Carolina UNC and NewYork-Presbyterian healthcare systems. Proceeds from the song go to GlobalGiving’s Coronavirus Relief Fund.


democracynow--2020-05-15--Headlines for May 15, 2020

Headlines for May 15, 2020

President Trump traveled to Allentown , Pennsylvania , Thursday , where he toured a medical supply warehouse that distributes N95 masks to healthcare workers .
Trump and his chief of staff , Mark Meadows , did not wear masks during their tour .
Trump later addressed masked warehouse workers who sat in chairs spaced six feet apart .
In a campaign-style speech , Trump promised to create the world ’ s greatest stockpile of medical equipment , attacked his political rival Joe Biden and questioned the practice of testing Americans for the coronavirus .
President Donald Trump : “ Could @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , overrated .
Maybe it is overrated .
… We have more cases than anybody in the world .
But why ?
Because we do more testing .
When you test , you have a case .
When you test , you find something is wrong with people .
If we didn ’ t do any testing , we would have very few cases.
” Trump ’ s remarks came as the deans of four major public health schools called for a massive increase in coronavirus case tracking , contact tracing and testing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not commit these resources , we will be doomed to a cycle of shut down , re-opening , resurgence of the virus and then shutting down again .
”

President Trump traveled to Allentown, Pennsylvania, Thursday, where he toured a medical supply warehouse that distributes N95 masks to healthcare workers. Trump and his chief of staff, Mark Meadows, did not wear masks during their tour. Trump later addressed masked warehouse workers who sat in chairs spaced six feet apart. In a campaign-style speech, Trump promised to create the world’s greatest stockpile of medical equipment, attacked his political rival Joe Biden and questioned the practice of testing Americans for the coronavirus.
President Donald Trump: “Could be the testing’s, frankly, overrated. Maybe it is overrated. … We have more cases than anybody in the world. But why? Because we do more testing. When you test, you have a case. When you test, you find something is wrong with people. If we didn’t do any testing, we would have very few cases.”
Trump’s remarks came as the deans of four major public health schools called for a massive increase in coronavirus case tracking, contact tracing and testing, warning, “If we do not commit these resources, we will be doomed to a cycle of shut down, re-opening, resurgence of the virus and then shutting down again.”