democracynow--2020-06-05--Our System Is Corroded: Carol Anderson on Rampant Police Violence and Assault on Voting Rights

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
, democracynow.org , The Quarantine Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman .
On Thursday , disturbing new details were revealed in the case of Ahmaud Arbery , the 25-year-old Black man chased , ambushed , shot dead by a group of white men in Georgia in what many have called a modern-day lynching .
In a nearly seven-hour hearing , a state judge concluded all three men — Travis McMichael ; his father , former police @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Roddie ” Bryan — would stand trial for Ahmaud Arbery ’ s murder , after special agent Richard Dial of the Georgia Bureau of Investigation testified Travis McMichael used a racial slur after shooting and killing Arbery .
AMY GOODMAN : Those last two words were the F-word and the N-word .
Travis McMichael had a sticker of a Confederate flag on his truck ’ s toolbox .
The investigator , Richard Dial , also testified the three white men hit Arbery with a truck as he attempted to escape them .
Special @ @ @ @ @ @ @ chased , hunted down and ultimately executed.
” Arbery ’ s family is calling for all three men arrested to face federal hate crime charges , as well .
For more , we ’ re going to Georgia , to Atlanta , where we ’ re joined by Carol Anderson , professor at Emory University , author of White Rage : The Unspoken Truth of Our Racial Divide .
She has a new piece in The Guardian .
It ’ s headlined “ In 1919 , the state failed to protect black Americans @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s still failing.
” In a minute , we ’ ll speak about the ongoing protests in defense of Black lives , but let ’ s begin , Professor Anderson , with Ahmaud Arbery and this unusual hearing , not like an arraignment hearing , but went on for hours .
Can you respond to the testimony , the new information , and this whole issue of lynching in America — not a hundred years ago , but today ?
CAROL ANDERSON : Thank you so much , Amy .
What we saw @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the statements that the McMichaels had originally made .
And what it showed was them blocking him .
It showed them hunting him down .
It showed them executing him .
And the fact that that tape was in the hands of law enforcement almost immediately , but nothing was done until protest , intense protest , erupted that thing out of the bowels of that law enforcement clique in Georgia so that justice could begin to move down the pike , it begins to tell you about how unseemly , how corrupt @ @ @ @ @ @ @ so that it takes protest to deal with issues of basic justice .
AMY GOODMAN : So , you ’ re in Georgia .
Georgia is one of the few states in the country that doesn ’ t have hate crimes laws .
The family is calling for these men to be brought up on hate crime charges .
Can you explain what this is about ?
CAROL ANDERSON : One of the things is that for Georgia — is that , you know , Georgia is one of the key lynching states @ @ @ @ @ @ @ happened here in Georgia , the one that Senator Cory Booker was talking about , which was Mary Turner , who had protested because her husband was lynched .
And they were angry at this woman who was eight months pregnant , who dared defy them .
And they hung her upside down .
They stripped her naked .
They burned her .
And then they cut the baby out of her stomach and stomped on the baby ’ s head .
That is Georgia .
And so , hate crimes becomes one @ @ @ @ @ @ @ state does not have to come to grips with the damage that it has done and that it continues to do .
And I would just say , on the whole issue of lynching , the fact that you had , during George Floyd ’ s memorial service , Rand Paul blocking an anti-lynching law named after Emmett Till also speaks volumes about where we are as a nation .
AMY GOODMAN : I want to issue a warning to our audience , because , Professor Anderson , I want to ask you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ footage .
Arrest warrants have been issued for six Atlanta police officers after they tased two Black college students , dragging them from their car for allegedly violating the city ’ s curfew Saturday night .
One officer was filmed smashing the window of the car .
Another slashed the car ’ s tires .
Two of the officers have already been fired .
The victims were a 20-year-old Spelman College student , Taniyah Pilgrim , and 22-year-old Morehouse College student Messiah Young , who suffered a fractured wrist , needed 24 stitches @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for something like five hours after they shot him .
This is Pilgrim and Young speaking Tuesday .
AMY GOODMAN : So , that is Messiah Young and Taniyah Pilgrim , two kids , one at Morehouse , one at Spelman .
You teach at Emory , Professor Anderson .
The horror of this moment as you see the electricity just convulse Messiah .
Two of the police officers were fired .
All six , arrest warrants were issued for them .
Can you respond to this ?
CAROL ANDERSON : It absolutely @ @ @ @ @ @ @ accountable .
When you see that film , one of the things that you see is that the car right in front of Messiah has a white woman who is waving out the window and smiling , but the police converge on these wonderful , beautiful students and slash their tires , smash out their windows .
And for what ?
For what ?
That ’ s the thing that is actually convulsing across the nation , because you ’ re asking , “ For what ?
” None of this looks like @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
The trauma in that interview , you saw where that — there was one moment where he ’ s just saying that he almost has to disassociate himself from it because it was so traumatic , so violent .
We do this to our people .
What is that ?
I ’ m sorry .
Just , it — I was in tears when I saw that interview .
I was horrified when I saw the original footage , and then in tears when I saw the interview .
AMY GOODMAN : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have Senator Rand Paul blocking anti-lynching legislation , right ?
He has proposed an amendment on Thursday that would weaken a bill making lynching a federal hate crime punishable by up to life in prison .
A day before , Senator Paul single-handedly stopped the legislation by denying its passage on unanimous consent .
The bill is co-sponsored by the Senate ’ s three African Americans : Republican Tim Scott of South Carolina and Democrats Kamala Harris of California , Cory Booker of New Jersey .
AMY GOODMAN : That ’ s New @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , talk about the significance of this legislation , passed almost unanimously in the House , and Rand Paul has stopped it in the Senate .
CAROL ANDERSON : And when , you know , you think about it , anti-lynching legislation , the NAACP had tried since the 1920s to get federal anti-lynching legislation passed .
And this is at that moment where you are seeing one horrific lynching after the next .
And there ’ s a key moment in the mid-1930s where it ’ s after the lynching of Claude @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that ’ s where the lynching is actually advertised , and that is when they sell tickets .
And Claude Neal is taken through a gauntlet of torture and tortured for hours , and his body parts cut off , and he ’ s forced to eat his own genitalia .
And the NAACP is pressing hard for a federal anti-lynching bill .
And two senators from the South — Jimmy Byrnes and Tom Connally — blocked it .
They mocked it .
They laughed .
They did almost a routine on the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
And so , when I see Rand Paul talking about , “ Well , we don ’ t need to have this being , you know , so extensive , so we need to make sure that just when somebody is slapped , that that ’ s not called a lynching , ” that does violence to the thousands upon thousands of African Americans who have been lynched .
That does enormous disrespect to the lives and to the families of those who have had to live under this terror without any @ @ @ @ @ @ @ GOODMAN : Can you respond to the words that are often used in the corporate media — the “ riots , ” the “ looting ” that ’ s going on ?
You ’ ve talked often about the state violence , that is not so easily addressed .
CAROL ANDERSON : And so we see this kind of false equivalence .
I mean , it is The Philadelphia Inquirer ’ s “ Buildings Matter , Too ” ?
The language of looting is a way to try to distract and diffuse from @ @ @ @ @ @ @ rained down on Black communities , bureaucratic violence in terms of militarizing the police , bureaucratic violence in terms of underfunding public schools , bureaucratic violence in terms of environmental toxins being poured into poor and Black communities .
That kind of bureaucratic violence just gets elided over .
And so , one of the things when I wrote White Rage , I talked about how we focus so much on the flames that we miss the kindling .
And the kindling is that bureaucratic violence that systematically destroys Black communities , that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ what we need to be paying attention to , or we ’ re always going to see the flames .
And so , that looting tries to make that equivalence .
It ’ s a false equivalence , that language of looting , that language of , “ Well , you ’ re distracting from the peaceful protest.
” But when African Americans peacefully protested , like Colin Kaepernick , he was just vilified for somehow disrespecting the flag ?
When the real disrespect of the flag is the systematic destruction of Black @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Guardian piece , Professor Anderson , you write , “ [ O ] ur current attorney general , Bill Barr , does not appear to see injustice .
Instead , he sounds much like his ancient predecessor , A Mitchell Palmer.
” Explain .
CAROL ANDERSON : So , A. Mitchell Palmer was the attorney general during 1919 , the Red Summer of 1919 .
And there you had an eruption of anti-Black violence as Black veterans are coming back from World War I .
Their work in the military as soldiers so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , because it was like , “ Wait a minute , they think they ’ re citizens now ?
” So , you saw this violence erupt , where Black people were hunted down and killed .
One of the most horrific cases was in Elaine , Arkansas .
And that is where Blacks were mobilizing to unionize because their wages were being stolen .
You had this massive group of sheriffs and vigilantes and the U.S. Army coming in and just massacring Black people .
A. Mitchell Palmer didn ’ t see @ @ @ @ @ @ @ people fighting for their constitutional rights , he said , “ These are these left-wing radicals .
These are communists.
” And it launches what would become known as the Red Scare , this hunt for communists in every kind of movement for equality .
What you see with Bill Barr , by raising up this fictive antifa organization that is out to destroy all that is good and right in America , where they can ’ t even identify what the antifa organization is — and “ antifa ” stands for anti-fascist @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we do have is the violence of the right wing , the violence where you have armed men storming into the Michigan state Capitol and threatening to kill the governor and yelling at law enforcement .
But somehow that ’ s not the kind of violence that Bill Barr is concerned with .
So you get this mobilizing of federal forces to knock out progressive forces that are fighting for equality , by using the threat of some outside agitator , some terrorist group — for A. Mitchell Palmer , communists ; for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ AMY GOODMAN : Bill Barr supposedly was the one who called for the police forces outside the White House to clear Lafayette Park for the president to walk forward with his chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and secretary of defense for a photo op .
And , of course , President Trump , once again yesterday , tweeted about the protesters being terrorists .
Before we end , I wanted to ask you about something people might not have noticed amidst the mass uprising this week .
There were primaries around @ @ @ @ @ @ @ difficult to vote .
Your latest book , One Person , No Vote : How Voter Suppression Is Destroying Our Democracy .
This is an issue you care immensely about , especially communities of color so hard hit by these twin pandemics of police brutality and the pandemic , and the fact that the pandemic continues , people being afraid to go out to vote , that they have to choose voting over their own health , and the assault by the president on mail-in voting , though he does it himself .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s going to happen in November — if President Trump allows this election to happen at all .
CAROL ANDERSON : And so , what we ’ re seeing is laying the groundwork for trying to erode these elections , the same way you had voter suppression undermining the election in 2016 .
In 2016 , because of voter suppression , because the U.S. Supreme Court had gutted the protections of the Voting Rights Act , you had a drop of 7 % in Black voter turnout .
And remember that Trump @ @ @ @ @ @ @ College votes of 77,000 votes among three states .
Voter suppression is lethal .
It is deadly .
And they ’ re trying to replicate it again .
So we ’ re seeing things , for instance , like in Texas , where the Supreme Court and the attorney general in Texas have said that the pandemic , a fear of COVID-19 , is not a justifiable excuse to get an absentee ballot ; where you have , in Kentucky , where because of the pandemic , they shut down the Department of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Legislature said , “ Oh , but in order to use an absentee ballot , you have to have a copy of your ID , your driver ’ s license.
” So , if you don ’ t have a driver ’ s license and you can ’ t get a driver ’ s license , how do you use your driver ’ s license , that you can ’ t get , in order to vote absentee ?
It ’ s in Alabama , where the U.S. Department of Justice has weighed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ say that you must have a witness statement , in the middle of a pandemic , in order to use an absentee ballot .
So , what we ’ re seeing here , in addition to what the U.S. Supreme Court did to those in Wisconsin in the middle of a pandemic , is to use the threat that is COVID-19 as a way to suppress voter turnout .
But what is happening is that you have seen people who understand that the way that this regime has attacked their very being means @ @ @ @ @ @ @ through glass , they ’ re willing to stand in front of a COVID-19 firing squad and risk their lives , in order to vote .
Now , we have to ask ourselves — CAROL ANDERSON : What kind of society is that , that makes people choose between their right to vote and their health ?
That ’ s where we are right now in the United States of America .
AMY GOODMAN : Carol Anderson , I want to thank you so much for being with us , professor at Emory @ @ @ @ @ @ @ The Unspoken Truth of Our Racial Divide ; her most recent book , One Person , No Vote : How Voter Suppression Is Destroying Our Democracy .
And we ’ ll link to your piece in The Guardian .
When we come back , we speak with an African American filmmaker .
Police pepper-sprayed him directly in the face as he was filming .
We ’ ll look at the militarization of police .
Stay with us .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
, democracynow.org .
“ Keep on Pushing @ @ @ @ @

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The Quarantine Report. I’m Amy Goodman. On Thursday, disturbing new details were revealed in the case of Ahmaud Arbery, the 25-year-old Black man chased, ambushed, shot dead by a group of white men in Georgia in what many have called a modern-day lynching. In a nearly seven-hour hearing, a state judge concluded all three men — Travis McMichael; his father, former police officer Gregory McMichael; and William “Roddie” Bryan — would stand trial for Ahmaud Arbery’s murder, after special agent Richard Dial of the Georgia Bureau of Investigation testified Travis McMichael used a racial slur after shooting and killing Arbery.
RICHARD DIAL: Mr. Bryan said that after the shooting took place, before police arrival, while Mr. Arbery was on the ground, that he heard Travis McMichael make the statement: “[bleep bleep].”
AMY GOODMAN: Those last two words were the F-word and the N-word. Travis McMichael had a sticker of a Confederate flag on his truck’s toolbox. The investigator, Richard Dial, also testified the three white men hit Arbery with a truck as he attempted to escape them. Special prosecutor Jesse Evans said Arbery was “chased, hunted down and ultimately executed.” Arbery’s family is calling for all three men arrested to face federal hate crime charges, as well.
For more, we’re going to Georgia, to Atlanta, where we’re joined by Carol Anderson, professor at Emory University, author of White Rage: The Unspoken Truth of Our Racial Divide. She has a new piece in The Guardian. It’s headlined “In 1919, the state failed to protect black Americans. A century later, it’s still failing.”
In a minute, we’ll speak about the ongoing protests in defense of Black lives, but let’s begin, Professor Anderson, with Ahmaud Arbery and this unusual hearing, not like an arraignment hearing, but went on for hours. Can you respond to the testimony, the new information, and this whole issue of lynching in America — not a hundred years ago, but today?
CAROL ANDERSON: Thank you so much, Amy.
What we saw on that tape was so contradictory to the statements that the McMichaels had originally made. And what it showed was them blocking him. It showed them hunting him down. It showed them executing him. And the fact that that tape was in the hands of law enforcement almost immediately, but nothing was done until protest, intense protest, erupted that thing out of the bowels of that law enforcement clique in Georgia so that justice could begin to move down the pike, it begins to tell you about how unseemly, how corrupt, how corroded the system is, so that it takes protest to deal with issues of basic justice.
AMY GOODMAN: So, you’re in Georgia. Georgia is one of the few states in the country that doesn’t have hate crimes laws. The family is calling for these men to be brought up on hate crime charges. Can you explain what this is about?
CAROL ANDERSON: One of the things is that for Georgia — is that, you know, Georgia is one of the key lynching states. One of the most graphic lynchings happened here in Georgia, the one that Senator Cory Booker was talking about, which was Mary Turner, who had protested because her husband was lynched. And they were angry at this woman who was eight months pregnant, who dared defy them. And they hung her upside down. They stripped her naked. They burned her. And then they cut the baby out of her stomach and stomped on the baby’s head. That is Georgia.
And so, hate crimes becomes one of those very slippery ways that the state does not have to come to grips with the damage that it has done and that it continues to do. And I would just say, on the whole issue of lynching, the fact that you had, during George Floyd’s memorial service, Rand Paul blocking an anti-lynching law named after Emmett Till also speaks volumes about where we are as a nation.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to issue a warning to our audience, because, Professor Anderson, I want to ask you about the story that contains just horrifying footage. Arrest warrants have been issued for six Atlanta police officers after they tased two Black college students, dragging them from their car for allegedly violating the city’s curfew Saturday night. One officer was filmed smashing the window of the car. Another slashed the car’s tires. Two of the officers have already been fired. The victims were a 20-year-old Spelman College student, Taniyah Pilgrim, and 22-year-old Morehouse College student Messiah Young, who suffered a fractured wrist, needed 24 stitches, had a tase in his body for something like five hours after they shot him. This is Pilgrim and Young speaking Tuesday.
TANIYAH PILGRIM: I hope every police officer who thinks it’s OK to drag someone, beat someone, do all this stuff because they’re cops — I hope they’re all going to be held accountable, as well.
MESSIAH YOUNG: I feel a little safer now that these monsters are off of the street and no longer able to terrorize anyone else from this point on. So, I think, moving forward, we just need to — like Ms. Pilgrim said, we just need to make sure that all officers are held accountable and that there really is change moving forward within the culture of policing.
AMY GOODMAN: So, that is Messiah Young and Taniyah Pilgrim, two kids, one at Morehouse, one at Spelman. You teach at Emory, Professor Anderson. The horror of this moment as you see the electricity just convulse Messiah. Two of the police officers were fired. All six, arrest warrants were issued for them. Can you respond to this?
CAROL ANDERSON: It absolutely had to happen that they are held accountable. When you see that film, one of the things that you see is that the car right in front of Messiah has a white woman who is waving out the window and smiling, but the police converge on these wonderful, beautiful students and slash their tires, smash out their windows. And for what? For what? That’s the thing that is actually convulsing across the nation, because you’re asking, “For what?” None of this looks like protect and serve. None of it.
The trauma in that interview, you saw where that — there was one moment where he’s just saying that he almost has to disassociate himself from it because it was so traumatic, so violent. We do this to our people. What is that? I’m sorry. Just, it — I was in tears when I saw that interview. I was horrified when I saw the original footage, and then in tears when I saw the interview.
AMY GOODMAN: And at the same time, you have Senator Rand Paul blocking anti-lynching legislation, right? He has proposed an amendment on Thursday that would weaken a bill making lynching a federal hate crime punishable by up to life in prison. A day before, Senator Paul single-handedly stopped the legislation by denying its passage on unanimous consent. The bill is co-sponsored by the Senate’s three African Americans: Republican Tim Scott of South Carolina and Democrats Kamala Harris of California, Cory Booker of New Jersey.
SEN. CORY BOOKER: But I am so raw today, of all days that we’re doing this. … I do not need my colleague, the senator from Kentucky, to tell me about one lynching in this country. I’ve stood in the museum in Montgomery, Alabama, and watched African American families weeping at the stories of pregnant women lynched in this country and their babies ripped out of them.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s New Jersey Senator Cory Booker. Carol Anderson, talk about the significance of this legislation, passed almost unanimously in the House, and Rand Paul has stopped it in the Senate.
CAROL ANDERSON: And when, you know, you think about it, anti-lynching legislation, the NAACP had tried since the 1920s to get federal anti-lynching legislation passed. And this is at that moment where you are seeing one horrific lynching after the next. And there’s a key moment in the mid-1930s where it’s after the lynching of Claude Neal, the spectacle lynching. And that’s where the lynching is actually advertised, and that is when they sell tickets. And Claude Neal is taken through a gauntlet of torture and tortured for hours, and his body parts cut off, and he’s forced to eat his own genitalia. And the NAACP is pressing hard for a federal anti-lynching bill. And two senators from the South — Jimmy Byrnes and Tom Connally — blocked it. They mocked it. They laughed. They did almost a routine on the Senate floor, making lynching a joke.
And so, when I see Rand Paul talking about, “Well, we don’t need to have this being, you know, so extensive, so we need to make sure that just when somebody is slapped, that that’s not called a lynching,” that does violence to the thousands upon thousands of African Americans who have been lynched. That does enormous disrespect to the lives and to the families of those who have had to live under this terror without any kind of justice being brought.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you respond to the words that are often used in the corporate media — the “riots,” the “looting” that’s going on? You’ve talked often about the state violence, that is not so easily addressed.
CAROL ANDERSON: And so we see this kind of false equivalence. I mean, it is The Philadelphia Inquirer’s “Buildings Matter, Too”? The language of looting is a way to try to distract and diffuse from the kind of bureaucratic violence that has rained down on Black communities, bureaucratic violence in terms of militarizing the police, bureaucratic violence in terms of underfunding public schools, bureaucratic violence in terms of environmental toxins being poured into poor and Black communities. That kind of bureaucratic violence just gets elided over.
And so, one of the things when I wrote White Rage, I talked about how we focus so much on the flames that we miss the kindling. And the kindling is that bureaucratic violence that systematically destroys Black communities, that systematically erodes their citizenship. That is what we need to be paying attention to, or we’re always going to see the flames.
And so, that looting tries to make that equivalence. It’s a false equivalence, that language of looting, that language of, “Well, you’re distracting from the peaceful protest.” But when African Americans peacefully protested, like Colin Kaepernick, he was just vilified for somehow disrespecting the flag? When the real disrespect of the flag is the systematic destruction of Black people.
AMY GOODMAN: In your Guardian piece, Professor Anderson, you write, “[O]ur current attorney general, Bill Barr, does not appear to see injustice. Instead, he sounds much like his ancient predecessor, A Mitchell Palmer.” Explain.
CAROL ANDERSON: So, A. Mitchell Palmer was the attorney general during 1919, the Red Summer of 1919. And there you had an eruption of anti-Black violence as Black veterans are coming back from World War I. Their work in the military as soldiers so disrupted what was the hierarchy of power, because it was like, “Wait a minute, they think they’re citizens now?” So, you saw this violence erupt, where Black people were hunted down and killed.
One of the most horrific cases was in Elaine, Arkansas. And that is where Blacks were mobilizing to unionize because their wages were being stolen. You had this massive group of sheriffs and vigilantes and the U.S. Army coming in and just massacring Black people. A. Mitchell Palmer didn’t see that. What he saw instead of people fighting for their constitutional rights, he said, “These are these left-wing radicals. These are communists.” And it launches what would become known as the Red Scare, this hunt for communists in every kind of movement for equality.
What you see with Bill Barr, by raising up this fictive antifa organization that is out to destroy all that is good and right in America, where they can’t even identify what the antifa organization is — and “antifa” stands for anti-fascist, fighting the fascists. But what we do have is the violence of the right wing, the violence where you have armed men storming into the Michigan state Capitol and threatening to kill the governor and yelling at law enforcement. But somehow that’s not the kind of violence that Bill Barr is concerned with. So you get this mobilizing of federal forces to knock out progressive forces that are fighting for equality, by using the threat of some outside agitator, some terrorist group — for A. Mitchell Palmer, communists; for Bill Barr, antifa. Whatever.
AMY GOODMAN: Bill Barr supposedly was the one who called for the police forces outside the White House to clear Lafayette Park for the president to walk forward with his chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and secretary of defense for a photo op. And, of course, President Trump, once again yesterday, tweeted about the protesters being terrorists.
Before we end, I wanted to ask you about something people might not have noticed amidst the mass uprising this week. There were primaries around the country, people finding it extremely difficult to vote. Your latest book, One Person, No Vote: How Voter Suppression Is Destroying Our Democracy. This is an issue you care immensely about, especially communities of color so hard hit by these twin pandemics of police brutality and the pandemic, and the fact that the pandemic continues, people being afraid to go out to vote, that they have to choose voting over their own health, and the assault by the president on mail-in voting, though he does it himself. Talk about democracy, voting, what’s going to happen in November — if President Trump allows this election to happen at all.
CAROL ANDERSON: And so, what we’re seeing is laying the groundwork for trying to erode these elections, the same way you had voter suppression undermining the election in 2016. In 2016, because of voter suppression, because the U.S. Supreme Court had gutted the protections of the Voting Rights Act, you had a drop of 7% in Black voter turnout. And remember that Trump won that election only by the Electoral College votes of 77,000 votes among three states. Voter suppression is lethal. It is deadly. And they’re trying to replicate it again.
So we’re seeing things, for instance, like in Texas, where the Supreme Court and the attorney general in Texas have said that the pandemic, a fear of COVID-19, is not a justifiable excuse to get an absentee ballot; where you have, in Kentucky, where because of the pandemic, they shut down the Department of Motor Vehicles, and then the Republican Legislature said, “Oh, but in order to use an absentee ballot, you have to have a copy of your ID, your driver’s license.” So, if you don’t have a driver’s license and you can’t get a driver’s license, how do you use your driver’s license, that you can’t get, in order to vote absentee? It’s in Alabama, where the U.S. Department of Justice has weighed in on the side of Alabama to say that you must have a witness statement, in the middle of a pandemic, in order to use an absentee ballot.
So, what we’re seeing here, in addition to what the U.S. Supreme Court did to those in Wisconsin in the middle of a pandemic, is to use the threat that is COVID-19 as a way to suppress voter turnout. But what is happening is that you have seen people who understand that the way that this regime has attacked their very being means that they’re willing to crawl through glass, they’re willing to stand in front of a COVID-19 firing squad and risk their lives, in order to vote. Now, we have to ask ourselves —
AMY GOODMAN: We have 30 seconds, Professor Anderson.
CAROL ANDERSON: What kind of society is that, that makes people choose between their right to vote and their health? That’s where we are right now in the United States of America.
AMY GOODMAN: Carol Anderson, I want to thank you so much for being with us, professor at Emory University, author of White Rage: The Unspoken Truth of Our Racial Divide; her most recent book, One Person, No Vote: How Voter Suppression Is Destroying Our Democracy. And we’ll link to your piece in The Guardian.
When we come back, we speak with an African American filmmaker. Police pepper-sprayed him directly in the face as he was filming. We’ll look at the militarization of police. Stay with us.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org. “Keep on Pushing” by The Impressions.


democracynow--2020-06-05--"Get Your Knee Off Our Necks": At Memorial for George Floyd, Mourners Condemn 400 Years of Racism

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : Thursday marked the first of many memorials for George Floyd .
In Minneapolis , members of his family , loved ones and supporters gathered for a tribute .
Floyd ’ s golden casket was covered in red roses .
A picture projected on the wall above it showed the mural of Floyd that ’ s been painted at the street corner where he died .
The mural reads , “ I can breathe now.
” During the tribute , people stood in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , the amount of time police officer Derek Chauvin kneeled on Floyd ’ s neck as he pleaded for his life .
Almost three of those minutes , Floyd was unresponsive .
This is one of George Floyd ’ s younger brothers , Philonise Floyd .
PHILONISE FLOYD : It was just amazing , everywhere you go and see people , how they cling to him .
They wanted to be around him .
You know , George , he was like a general .
Every day he walks outside , it ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ like just like when we came here , wanted to greet him and wanted to have fun with him .
Guys that was doing drugs , like smokers and homeless people , you couldn ’ t tell , because when you spoke to George , they felt like they was the president , because that ’ s how he made you feel .
He was powerful , man .
He had a way with words .
He could always make you ready to jump and go , all the time .
Everybody loved @ @ @ @ @ @ @ him George .
We called him Perry .
If you called him Perry , you knew him direct , you know , because George was the name everybody called him — Big George or Big Floyd , you know , Georgie Porgie .
He had so many different names .
But I ’ m going to go ahead and let — PHILONISE FLOYD : I ’ m just — man , it ’ s crazy , man .
All these people came to see my brother , and that ’ s amazing to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ people ’ s hearts , you know , because he ’ s been touching our hearts , you know ?
You come to Third Ward , where we ’ re from , people are crying right now .
That ’ s how much they loved him .
You know , I ’ m just staying strong as I can , because I need to get it out .
I need to get it out .
Everybody wants justice .
We want justice for George .
He ’ s going to get it .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
AMY GOODMAN : That ’ s George Floyd ’ s younger brother Philonise Floyd , speaking during the tribute Thursday in Minneapolis , where Reverend Al Sharpton announced he ’ s joining with the families of people killed by police to organize a march on Washington on August 28th , the 57th anniversary of the historic demonstration for civil rights led by Reverend Martin Luther King Jr.
It ’ s also the day in 1955 Emmett Till was lynched .
Reverend Sharpton urged those gathered Thursday to stand up in George ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ your knee off our necks.
” REV .
AL SHARPTON : George Floyd ’ s story has been the story of Black folks , because ever since 401 years ago , the reason we could never be who we wanted and dreamed of being is you kept your knee on our neck .
We were smarter than the underfunded schools you put us in , but you had your knee on our neck .
We could run corporations and not hustle in the street , but you had your knee on our neck @ @ @ @ @ @ @ could do whatever anybody else could do , but we couldn ’ t get your knee off our neck .
What happened to Floyd happens every day in this country , in education , in health services and in every area of American life .
It ’ s time for us to stand up in George ’ s name and say , “ Get your knee off our necks !
” AMY GOODMAN : That ’ s the Reverend Al Sharpton speaking at the tribute to George Floyd Thursday in Minneapolis , attended @ @ @ @ @ @ @ When we come back , we look at a hearing in the case of Ahmaud Arbery , the 25-year-old African American man who was shot dead after being chased and ambushed by a group of white men in Georgia .
We ’ ll go to Georgia to speak with professor Carol Anderson .
Stay with us .
AMY GOODMAN : That ’ s music from the memorial service for George Floyd in Minneapolis .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: Thursday marked the first of many memorials for George Floyd. In Minneapolis, members of his family, loved ones and supporters gathered for a tribute. Floyd’s golden casket was covered in red roses. A picture projected on the wall above it showed the mural of Floyd that’s been painted at the street corner where he died. The mural reads, “I can breathe now.”
During the tribute, people stood in silence for eight minutes and 46 seconds, the amount of time police officer Derek Chauvin kneeled on Floyd’s neck as he pleaded for his life. Almost three of those minutes, Floyd was unresponsive.
This is one of George Floyd’s younger brothers, Philonise Floyd.
PHILONISE FLOYD: It was just amazing, everywhere you go and see people, how they cling to him. They wanted to be around him. You know, George, he was like a general. Every day he walks outside, it’d be a line of people, like just like when we came here, wanted to greet him and wanted to have fun with him. Guys that was doing drugs, like smokers and homeless people, you couldn’t tell, because when you spoke to George, they felt like they was the president, because that’s how he made you feel. He was powerful, man. He had a way with words. He could always make you ready to jump and go, all the time.
Everybody loved George. We didn’t call him George. We called him Perry. If you called him Perry, you knew him direct, you know, because George was the name everybody called him — Big George or Big Floyd, you know, Georgie Porgie. He had so many different names. But I’m going to go ahead and let —
SHAREEDUH TATE: Go ahead. Go ahead. I’m not stopping you. Go ahead.
PHILONISE FLOYD: I’m just — man, it’s crazy, man. All these people came to see my brother, and that’s amazing to me, that he touched so many people’s hearts, you know, because he’s been touching our hearts, you know? You come to Third Ward, where we’re from, people are crying right now. That’s how much they loved him. You know, I’m just staying strong as I can, because I need to get it out. I need to get it out. Everybody wants justice. We want justice for George. He’s going to get it. He’s going to get it.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s George Floyd’s younger brother Philonise Floyd, speaking during the tribute Thursday in Minneapolis, where Reverend Al Sharpton announced he’s joining with the families of people killed by police to organize a march on Washington on August 28th, the 57th anniversary of the historic demonstration for civil rights led by Reverend Martin Luther King Jr. It’s also the day in 1955 Emmett Till was lynched. Reverend Sharpton urged those gathered Thursday to stand up in George’s name and say, “Get your knee off our necks.”
REV. AL SHARPTON: George Floyd’s story has been the story of Black folks, because ever since 401 years ago, the reason we could never be who we wanted and dreamed of being is you kept your knee on our neck. We were smarter than the underfunded schools you put us in, but you had your knee on our neck. We could run corporations and not hustle in the street, but you had your knee on our neck. We had creative skills, we could do whatever anybody else could do, but we couldn’t get your knee off our neck. What happened to Floyd happens every day in this country, in education, in health services and in every area of American life. It’s time for us to stand up in George’s name and say, “Get your knee off our necks!”
AMY GOODMAN: That’s the Reverend Al Sharpton speaking at the tribute to George Floyd Thursday in Minneapolis, attended by thousands, inside and out.
When we come back, we look at a hearing in the case of Ahmaud Arbery, the 25-year-old African American man who was shot dead after being chased and ambushed by a group of white men in Georgia. We’ll go to Georgia to speak with professor Carol Anderson. Stay with us.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: That’s music from the memorial service for George Floyd in Minneapolis.


democracynow--2020-06-05--Headlines for June  5, 2020

Headlines for June  5, 2020

In Minneapolis , the three officers charged with aiding and abetting George Floyd ’ s murder were arraigned in a @ @ @ @ @ with bail set at $ 750,000 each .
Defense lawyers told the court the two @ @ @ @ @ to the pavement — as officer Derek Chauvin pressed his knee into Floyd ’ s @ @ @ @ @ off probation .
But records show officers Alexander Kueng and Thomas Lane joined the department @ @ @ @ @ officers , and they became full officers last December .
Meanwhile , a longtime friend @ @ @ @ @ the killing told Minnesota state investigators that at no point did George Floyd resist arrest @ @ @ @

There are new developments in the case of Ahmaud Arbery, the 25-year-old Black man who was shot dead after being chased and ambushed by a group of white men in Georgia. After a hearing on Thursday, a state judge concluded there is enough evidence to support the murder charges against the three men. During the hearing, special agent Richard Dial of the Georgia Bureau of Investigation testified one of the men used a racial slur after Arbery was chased, hunted down and executed.
Richard Dial: “Mr. Bryan said that after the shooting took place, before police arrival, while Mr. Arbery was on the ground, that he heard Travis McMichael make the statement: '[bleep bleep].'”
Those last two words were the F-word and the N-word. Arbery’s family is calling for all three men arrested to face federal hate crime charges. We will have more on the Ahmaud Arbery case later in the show.


democracynow--2020-06-08--"The Time Is Now": Tens of Thousands in NYC March for Justice, Peace & an End to Racist Police

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : We end this broadcast in the streets of New York , where hundreds of thousands of people have been letting their voices be heard .
These are just some of them .
CYN FABRE : My name is Cyn Fabre [ phon. ]
.
And my wife is over there .
I have four kids , two of them boys , and one presents as white , one presents as Black .
I ’ m here so my son never has to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ re home , we have two different conversations : one for my son to save his life and be safe , the other conversation with my white son , to protect his brother when he gets older and do better for all the Black children in this world .
So I ’ m here today for my son , so he never has to march ever again .
CYN FABRE : Sometimes what happens is we lose sight on what we ’ re all fighting for .
We can get distracted .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ Taylor .
She is not forgotten .
She is why I ’ m here .
We are fighting for her .
I can ’ t tell you what this march means to me today .
This is history being made right now .
And I ’ m glad to be a part of it .
LUCINDA CROSS : My name is Lucinda Cross .
Our organization is Activate Your Life .
We stand for women reentry to have the same rights .
So I ’ m marching today to make sure that Black @ @ @ @ @ @ @ white people are .
I ’ m a mother of Black boys .
So it ’ s important to not only just walk for my boys , but to also walk for the women that I believe in .
This one , I think this is a world changer .
I can say honestly , even my own son was accused of something he didn ’ t do .
And so , this , right here , what is being done , is an extreme global world changer .
And I ’ m @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
It ’ s about time .
It ’ s about time we made global change .
No justice , no peace !
No racist police !
JASON GILLILAND : I ’ m Jason Gilliland [ phon. ]
.
I ’ m from Mississippi , but I went to school here .
I ’ m here because , I mean , I ’ m affected .
Despite my education , despite all I ’ ve done , I ’ m just as afraid when the police are behind me or I pass by @ @ @ @ @ @ @ don ’ t have a family yet , but I hope to .
So I ’ m out here hoping to get more justice for my kids and my friends ’ kids and everybody after me .
JASON GILLILAND : What else can we say ?
I mean , every opportunity he ’ s had to say something positive or help , he ’ s done the exact opposite .
He ’ s done all he ’ s can to say that he ’ s not racist , but he makes sure to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ there ’ s good people on both sides .
I mean , we compare the riots anywhere else in the last few weeks , that he said about “ thugs ” and “ when the looting starts , the shooting starts , ” but when Charlottesville happened not that long ago , there were good people on both sides , when people were brutally beaten and run over by cars .
And every opportunity to do the right thing , he does the wrong thing on purpose .
So at some point you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ who he is .
And that ’ s why he got the response that you do .
This is Meagan Hockaday .
She ’ s from Oxnard , California .
On March 28 , 2015 , police was called because of a domestic dispute .
Twenty seconds after arriving , police opened fire and killed her .
She was only 28 years old .
And the same police officer was just involved in a shooting one year prior .
That person didn ’ t die , but people knew that there was a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , nothing came of it .
Very little justice was had at all .
And many people don ’ t even know her name .
So , along with Breonna Taylor and George Floyd and Eric Garner and Tamir Rice and everybody else , Meagan Hockaday deserves her attention , and she deserves her justice , too .
Linda Sarsour .
I ’ m a Brooklyn activist .
I ’ m a co-founder of Until Freedom .
And I ’ m here organizing , like we ’ ve been doing for the last @ @ @ @ @ @ @ here in New York City for police reform .
We ’ re literally watching history unfold before our very eyes .
As an organizer , it ’ s different .
I feel different .
This is a moment where people have said , “ Enough is enough !
” And they mean at this time .
AMY GOODMAN : Voices of protest in New York .
Special thanks to John Hamilton and Iara Fraga , and to Sadie Luetmer in Minneapolis .
That does it for our show .
Democracy Now !
is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on site .
The majority of our amazing team is working from home .
If you want to sign up for our Daily Digest , go to democracynow.org .
Democracy Now !
is produced with Renée Feltz , Mike Burke , Deena Guzder , Libby Rainey , Nermeen Shaikh , Carla Wills , Tami Woronoff , Charina Nadura , Sam Alcoff , Tey-Marie Astudillo , John Hamilton , Robby Karran , Hany Massoud .
I ’ m Amy Goodman .
Thanks so much for joining us .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: We end this broadcast in the streets of New York, where hundreds of thousands of people have been letting their voices be heard. These are just some of them.
CYN FABRE: My name is Cyn Fabre [phon.]. And my wife is over there. I have four kids, two of them boys, and one presents as white, one presents as Black. I’m here so my son never has to do this march. And when we’re home, we have two different conversations: one for my son to save his life and be safe, the other conversation with my white son, to protect his brother when he gets older and do better for all the Black children in this world. So I’m here today for my son, so he never has to march ever again.
PROTESTERS: Say her name! Breonna Taylor! Say her name! Breonna Taylor!
CYN FABRE: Sometimes what happens is we lose sight on what we’re all fighting for. We can get distracted. And I want people to remember Breonna Taylor. She is not forgotten. She is why I’m here. We are fighting for her. I can’t tell you what this march means to me today. This is history being made right now. And I’m glad to be a part of it.
PROTESTERS: Say her name! Breonna Taylor! Say her name! Breonna Taylor!
DAKIA McLEAN: Well, my name is Dakia McLean [phon.]. I’m out here because, one, I’m a woman. I’m of color. I’m a mother of two boys, two girls. And it’s important. We had enough. This is the time. The time is now. So that’s why I’m out here.
PROTESTERS: Say her name! Breonna Taylor! Say her name! Breonna Taylor!
DAKIA McLEAN: Again, a woman of color who was unjustly gunned down in her home. And of course we know it’s because of the color of her skin. You know, with these cops, it’s always shoot, ask questions last. But if you’re white, they ask questions before they do anything else.
PROTESTERS: Hands up! Don’t shoot! Hands up! Don’t shoot! Hands up! Don’t shoot! Hands up! Don’t shoot!
LUCINDA CROSS: My name is Lucinda Cross. Our organization is Activate Your Life. We stand for women reentry to have the same rights. So I’m marching today to make sure that Black people are seen justly, just as white people are. I’m a mother of Black boys. So it’s important to not only just walk for my boys, but to also walk for the women that I believe in. This one, I think this is a world changer. I can say honestly, even my own son was accused of something he didn’t do. And so, this, right here, what is being done, is an extreme global world changer. And I’m honored to be a part of it. It’s about time. It’s about time we made global change. No justice, no peace! No racist police!
PROTESTERS: I say, no justice, no peace! I say, no justice, no peace! I say, no justice, no peace! I say, no justice, no peace!
JASON GILLILAND: I’m Jason Gilliland [phon.]. I’m from Mississippi, but I went to school here. I’m here because, I mean, I’m affected. Despite my education, despite all I’ve done, I’m just as afraid when the police are behind me or I pass by them and everything else. And I don’t have a family yet, but I hope to. So I’m out here hoping to get more justice for my kids and my friends’ kids and everybody after me.
PROTESTERS: Donald Trump has got to go! Hey hey, ho ho! Donald Trump has got to go! Hey hey, ho ho!
JASON GILLILAND: What else can we say? I mean, every opportunity he’s had to say something positive or help, he’s done the exact opposite. He’s done all he’s can to say that he’s not racist, but he makes sure to say that when racist things happens, there’s good people on both sides. I mean, we compare the riots anywhere else in the last few weeks, that he said about “thugs” and “when the looting starts, the shooting starts,” but when Charlottesville happened not that long ago, there were good people on both sides, when people were brutally beaten and run over by cars. And every opportunity to do the right thing, he does the wrong thing on purpose. So at some point you’ve got to believe him for who he is. And that’s why he got the response that you do.
This is Meagan Hockaday. She’s from Oxnard, California. On March 28, 2015, police was called because of a domestic dispute. Twenty seconds after arriving, police opened fire and killed her. She was only 28 years old. And the same police officer was just involved in a shooting one year prior. That person didn’t die, but people knew that there was a problem. Just like many other stories, nothing came of it. Very little justice was had at all. And many people don’t even know her name. So, along with Breonna Taylor and George Floyd and Eric Garner and Tamir Rice and everybody else, Meagan Hockaday deserves her attention, and she deserves her justice, too.
LINDA SARSOUR: Off of the sidewalks and into the streets! Off of the sidewalks and into the streets! Off of the sidewalks and into the streets!
Linda Sarsour. I’m a Brooklyn activist. I’m a co-founder of Until Freedom. And I’m here organizing, like we’ve been doing for the last many decades, as you know, here in New York City for police reform. We’re literally watching history unfold before our very eyes. As an organizer, it’s different. I feel different. This is a moment where people have said, “Enough is enough!” And they mean at this time.
PROTESTERS: No justice, no peace! No justice, no peace! No justice, no peace! No justice, no peace! No justice, no peace!
AMY GOODMAN: Voices of protest in New York. Special thanks to John Hamilton and Iara Fraga, and to Sadie Luetmer in Minneapolis.
That does it for our show. Democracy Now! is working with as few people as possible on site. The majority of our amazing team is working from home. If you want to sign up for our Daily Digest, go to democracynow.org.
Democracy Now! is produced with Renée Feltz, Mike Burke, Deena Guzder, Libby Rainey, Nermeen Shaikh, Carla Wills, Tami Woronoff, Charina Nadura, Sam Alcoff, Tey-Marie Astudillo, John Hamilton, Robby Karran, Hany Massoud. I’m Amy Goodman. Thanks so much for joining us.


democracynow--2020-06-08--The End of Policing: Alex Vitale on How Cops & Their Unions Cover Up Inequality,  Exploitation

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
I ’ m Amy Goodman .
This weekend , activists in Washington , D.C. , updated a massive mural unveiled last week by Mayor Muriel Bowser on the two-block stretch of road that leads to the White House .
What she had printed , in enormous block letters that can be seen from space , “ Black Lives Matter , ” in yellow block letters .
They put right next to it “ Defund the police , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the whole movement now .
We are going to turn right now to Alex Vitale , who has long argued the answer to police violence is not reform , that it ’ s defunding .
He ’ s a sociology professor at Brooklyn College , coordinator of the Policing and Social Justice Program , author of the book The End of Policing .
Can you talk about the whole defund the police movement in terms of the end of policing , what exactly you mean , Professor Vitale ?
ALEX VITALE : Sure @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ re dealing with here is a long story about the use of police and prisons to manage problems of inequality and exploitation .
And this goes back — this is a story goes back hundreds of years .
But we ’ re also talking about a story of the last 50 years , about neoliberal austerity and the way in which it has concentrated inequality in the United States , producing problems like mass homelessness and mass untreated mental illness and mass involvement in black markets because of economic precarity , and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
So we ’ ve seen this incredible explosion of the scope of policing .
And what the defund movement is talking about — and all your guests have just been amazing in their discussions of this — is about rethinking not just what are police doing , but why are we using police to paper over problems of economic exploitation .
And the defund movement , which was occurring in dozens of cities before the events in Minneapolis , is about concretely identifying police spending that could be shifted into specific , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ public safety without coercion , violence and racism .
AMY GOODMAN : Can you respond to what ’ s happening in New York , the pressure that de Blasio has been feeling , the mayor , from community groups talking about cutting some of the budget of the police , and then , of course , this historic moment in Minneapolis where the City Council says they have a veto-proof majority to dismantle the police department ?
ALEX VITALE : Yeah , I think we ’ re dealing with an economic — I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ here — right ?
— that things that seemed completely impossible two weeks ago are now being implemented .
And while I agree with Linda we can not trust the mayor at all in this , we need to keep the pressure on the City Council to follow through with these cuts and to make not just the cuts , but the reinvestments that communities have been begging for at a significant level .
And the mayor has not been our partner in this endeavor .
He has undermined our efforts .
He @ @ @ @ @ @ @ his mayoralty , including adding 1,300 additional police to the headcount several years ago .
So , we have to keep the political pressure on .
AMY GOODMAN : And the role of police unions , Alex ?
ALEX VITALE : So , you know , you heard from Mr. Ellison lay out exactly what we ’ re up against .
It ’ s not just the unions .
It ’ s not just their rank-and-file memberships .
They become , in many cities , the locus , the institutional hub for a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ line ” politics that believe that policing is not only effective but it ’ s the most desirable way to solve our problems .
And embedded in this is a deep racism that says that certain populations can only be managed through constant threats and coercion .
It is the logic of slavery .
It is the logic of colonialism .
And we have to take concrete steps to dismantle their political power .
And one of the most exciting things that I ’ ve seen this week — AMY GOODMAN : We @ @ @ @ @ @ @ — was in New York , this effort to get politicians to reject those political donations and turn them over to bail funds and mutual aid projects .
AMY GOODMAN : Alex Vitale , thanks so much for being with us , Brooklyn College professor , author of The End of Policing .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now! I’m Amy Goodman. This weekend, activists in Washington, D.C., updated a massive mural unveiled last week by Mayor Muriel Bowser on the two-block stretch of road that leads to the White House. What she had printed, in enormous block letters that can be seen from space, “Black Lives Matter,” in yellow block letters. They put right next to it “Defund the police,” referring, of course, to the whole movement now.
We are going to turn right now to Alex Vitale, who has long argued the answer to police violence is not reform, that it’s defunding. He’s a sociology professor at Brooklyn College, coordinator of the Policing and Social Justice Program, author of the book The End of Policing.
Can you talk about the whole defund the police movement in terms of the end of policing, what exactly you mean, Professor Vitale?
ALEX VITALE: Sure. So, part of what we’re dealing with here is a long story about the use of police and prisons to manage problems of inequality and exploitation. And this goes back — this is a story goes back hundreds of years. But we’re also talking about a story of the last 50 years, about neoliberal austerity and the way in which it has concentrated inequality in the United States, producing problems like mass homelessness and mass untreated mental illness and mass involvement in black markets because of economic precarity, and then using police to manage those problems. So we’ve seen this incredible explosion of the scope of policing.
And what the defund movement is talking about — and all your guests have just been amazing in their discussions of this — is about rethinking not just what are police doing, but why are we using police to paper over problems of economic exploitation. And the defund movement, which was occurring in dozens of cities before the events in Minneapolis, is about concretely identifying police spending that could be shifted into specific, targeted community interventions that will actually produce public safety without coercion, violence and racism.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you respond to what’s happening in New York, the pressure that de Blasio has been feeling, the mayor, from community groups talking about cutting some of the budget of the police, and then, of course, this historic moment in Minneapolis where the City Council says they have a veto-proof majority to dismantle the police department?
ALEX VITALE: Yeah, I think we’re dealing with an economic — I’m sorry, a political earthquake here — right? — that things that seemed completely impossible two weeks ago are now being implemented. And while I agree with Linda we cannot trust the mayor at all in this, we need to keep the pressure on the City Council to follow through with these cuts and to make not just the cuts, but the reinvestments that communities have been begging for at a significant level. And the mayor has not been our partner in this endeavor. He has undermined our efforts. He has increased the police budget consistently during his mayoralty, including adding 1,300 additional police to the headcount several years ago. So, we have to keep the political pressure on.
AMY GOODMAN: And the role of police unions, Alex?
ALEX VITALE: So, you know, you heard from Mr. Ellison lay out exactly what we’re up against. It’s not just the unions. It’s not just their rank-and-file memberships. They become, in many cities, the locus, the institutional hub for a whole set of right-wing “thin blue line” politics that believe that policing is not only effective but it’s the most desirable way to solve our problems. And embedded in this is a deep racism that says that certain populations can only be managed through constant threats and coercion. It is the logic of slavery. It is the logic of colonialism. And we have to take concrete steps to dismantle their political power. And one of the most exciting things that I’ve seen this week —
AMY GOODMAN: We have five seconds.
ALEX VITALE: — was in New York, this effort to get politicians to reject those political donations and turn them over to bail funds and mutual aid projects.
AMY GOODMAN: Alex Vitale, thanks so much for being with us, Brooklyn College professor, author of The End of Policing.


democracynow--2020-06-08--Defund the Police: Linda Sarsour & Mychal Denzel Smith on What Meaningful Change Would Look Like

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
, democracynow.org , The Quarantine Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman .
After nearly two weeks of massive demonstrations here in New York City calling for police accountability , Mayor Bill de Blasio has pledged to shift some of New York funding for police and reallocate it to social services .
He made the announcement in a press conference on Sunday .
AMY GOODMAN : The New York City Police Department has an annual budget of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s nearly 7 % of Mayor de Blasio ’ s proposed $ 90 billion budget for 2021 .
This comes as Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti agreed last week to slash between $ 100 million to $ 150 million from proposed funding for police , and members of the Minneapolis City Council have vowed to dismantle the city ’ s police department .
For more , we ’ re joined by Linda Sarsour , Palestinian American Muslim organizer ; author of We Are Not Here to Be Bystanders ; co-founder of Until Freedom @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Police Reform and Until Freedom has been pressuring New York City ’ s mayor to institute meaningful change around police accountability ; a well-known activist , New Yorker .
Linda , welcome back to Democracy Now !
Can you respond to what the mayor announced yesterday ?
This is like a day or two after he was — activists turned their backs on him , after they booed him when he came out to speak at one of the memorial services for George Floyd that was run by George Floyd ’ s brother @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
LINDA SARSOUR : Let ’ s make sure that the credit goes where it ’ s due , Amy .
The credit is to Communities United for Police Reform , the Justice Committee , the New York Justice League , the Gathering for Justice , Until Freedom , the many groups in New York City who have been doing police reform work for decades , and in the last for years have continued to pressure Mayor Bill de Blasio , who ran on a police reform platform , to actually make transformative @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we marched from 110th and Central Park West , which was Frederick Douglass Monument , all the way to Washington Square Park .
Over 50,000 people came out with us , and we had a set of demands .
And one of the demands was defund the police and reappropriate funding to youth and communities .
We also called on him — when the anti-chokehold bill gets to his desk , I don ’ t want to see him , I don ’ t want to hear his voice .
I want him @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sign that anti-chokehold bill .
We need his leadership right now .
So , he can tell me that he ’ s going to defund the police or reappropriate funding , but we have to see that .
We have to see him implement that .
He has lied over and over to Black and Brown communities in New York City .
So we want to see the actual tangible things that he ’ s going to be doing for us .
AMY GOODMAN : And Mayor de Blasio was long considered a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and what has happened since ?
And also , Governor Cuomo ’ s attacks on him , and his approach to law enforcement , Linda ?
LINDA SARSOUR : If Mayor Bill de Blasio is a progressive , Amy , please don ’ t ever use that term to describe someone like me .
Bill de Blasio is not a progressive .
He ran as a progressive , but when he became the mayor , the NYPD started running him .
I always wondered who was the actual mayor of New York City @ @ @ @ @ @ @ or was it the NYPD ?
And so , for me , what we ’ re looking for from Mayor Bill de Blasio — he only has a little time left right now , and he could really go out here with a legacy of really transforming the New York City budget , of defunding the police department , of actually listening and implementing the visions of Black and Brown communities .
We protest , Amy , all the time in New York City , Black-led organizing , Brown people-led organizing .
We @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
We are trained in deescalation .
We are trained in bystander intervention .
And we have seen the brutality of the New York Police Department not just against innocent , unarmed people in our communities , but also against protesters .
And in one of the largest democracies in the world , we watched the largest police force — who , you remember , Mayor Bloomberg said that if they were an army , the NYPD , they would be the seventh-largest army in the world .
And they have been brutalizing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ mayor has not asked NYPD to stand down .
And we ’ re tired of it .
And I ’ m looking forward to seeing the New York City Council also hold the mayor accountable and not doing any handshakes with the budget unless we defund the New York Police Department .
AMY GOODMAN : So , Linda Sarsour , this call to defund the police , that is echoing throughout the country , explain exactly what it means .
And would you say that it goes along the lines of what the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ going to do within the next year , and that is dismantle the police department ?
Is it to completely cut off the $ 6 billion to the New York Police Department or reallocate a lot of money ?
LINDA SARSOUR : I just want to make it clear that the movement to end police brutality , the movement for the sanctity of Black life , is being led by Black women and Black people , and they have been calling for the abolition of police , many for decades , and some @ @ @ @ @ @ @ want to make it clear that the long-term goal for many in the movement is the abolition of police , is the abolition of prisons .
But when we say “ defund the police today , ” we do not mean that tomorrow you ’ re going to wake up and not find a single police officer around .
That is not what defunding the police means right now at this moment .
What it really means , Amy — and it ’ s very rational , and it ’ s very reasonable @ @ @ @ @ @ @ cops out of our schools , cops out of addressing mental health crises , cops out of addressing homelessness , and reallocate those resources to services , to adequate housing , to case management , to economic opportunities in our community , to reinstate programs like the Summer Youth Employment Program , to make sure that we have , for example , protective equipment for healthcare workers , making sure that we have clinics and hospitals and access to healthcare for Black and Brown people , for undocumented people in our communities , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ transportation .
So what we ’ re saying is , let the cops do what the cops are supposed to do : keep people safe .
They are not social workers .
They are not mental health professionals .
They are not educators .
So they are actually engaging in activity that does not match the qualifications nor the criteria of a police officer .
That is not what they are trained to do in the police academy , so why are we sending them to address things that have nothing to do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ re saying is , in New York City , the police department has one of the largest budgets of any agency , in fact maybe the largest of all agencies in New York City .
All we ’ re saying is , decrease their budget , take that money and reappropriate it into youth , seniors , community development , and with a focus on those who have been the most directly impacted , focused on communities of color , poor working-class people .
And when you have this conversation , Amy @ @ @ @ @ @ @ what defund the police is — I have not had one conversation with a white ally or a neighbor in a place like Bay Ridge , which has a lot of pro-law-enforcement people — people say to me , “ You make sense .
This is absolutely rational .
It is absolutely reasonable.
” So we ’ re not saying , you know , delete the police officers off the face of the Earth tomorrow .
But what we ’ re saying is , reappropriate the funding , and let ’ s put @ @ @ @ @ @ @ community needs , so we can be healthy , we can be safe , and we can be secure , and we can have communities that thrive and not only survive in New York City .
AMY GOODMAN : In a little bit of time , I want to ask you about a man who died in captivity — right ?
— in the Metropolitan Detention Center , who was pepper-sprayed , Linda .
But I first want to go to Mychal Denzel Smith , fellow at Type Media Center , author of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Watching : A Young Black Man ’ s Education .
His forthcoming book is Stakes Is High : Life After the American Dream .
I wanted to ask you about this whole call to defund the police , Mychal , and also Governor Cuomo ’ s discussion of what he ’ s calling the “ Say Their Name ” bill .
This is at the New York state level .
He says the next wave of reform will be shift funding from NYPD to youth and social services , reform 50-A , transparency @ @ @ @ @ @ @ mayor is calling for .
But the governor , in their “ Say Their Name ” bill , is calling for a number of different demands .
And I want to get your sense of what exactly that “ Say Their Name ” bill means , when he says more transparency , the New York attorney general will be in charge of prosecution of police , there should be no chokeholds , and other issues , Mychal .
MYCHAL DENZEL SMITH : Well , those are things that are on the back end @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , the defund the police demand is an abolitionist demand , one .
We have to understand and to recognize it as such .
The shifting of funds from the police department — currently , as you stated , the New York City Police Department ’ s budget nearly $ 6 billion , almost $ 2 billion in Los Angeles , constituting almost 18 % of their city budget .
It ’ s similar numbers in Chicago and other large cities .
Those are funds that could go toward building the type of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ safety of people , like Linda was just saying .
You can invest that money in things that people actually need .
I mean , the one thing that ’ s come of this global pandemic of COVID-19 is an understanding of what constitutes essential , what do we actually need .
And police have shown that they are inessential .
They not there to do what people imagine them to do .
They don ’ t protect , and they don ’ t serve , unless you are rich and white .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ if you continue to fund the police at the rates that you do , and you are denying other services those funds , what you set up is an untenable situation in which you always need the police , or “ need ” the police , because a system of inequality requires that violent enforcer when there are uprisings , as we ’ ve seen the police enact in the suppression of these uprisings in the past couple weeks .
So , the call for defunding the police really is sort of the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ one of the first demands .
It goes along with decriminalization .
It goes along with the building of new institutions that are actually community-oriented safety measures , and also getting rid of white supremacists , heteropatriarchal capitalism , taking a shot right at the heart of what that means and how that is undergirding every institution in the United States .
Defunding the police is one step toward that .
And it ’ s a crucial step because it gets people to understand that they have prioritized the police in ways that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , that are dangerous , that threaten our lives .
AMY GOODMAN : Let me ask you about Campaign Zero , efforts at reform .
They released an 8 Can ’ t Wait campaign with eight reforms they claim would reduce police killings by almost three-quarters .
Abolitionists are responding with an 8 to Abolition platform .
Explain all of that .
MYCHAL DENZEL SMITH : Yeah , so , in the midst of this Campaign Zero , which is an organization of sorts that came out of the Ferguson uprisings and has @ @ @ @ @ @ @ around police violence , they ’ ve delivered to us stats on policing and police violence and use of force that have been crucial , and they ’ ve been uncovering things about police union contracts .
And those things are really essential .
But their program , the 8 Can ’ t Wait , the policy reforms that they issued , and came along with this nice graphic , and it was shared on social media , they ’ re really milquetoast reforms , right ?
And what they do is sort @ @ @ @ @ @ @ police , right ?
Like , they say , you know , you have to issue a warning before shooting , or you can ’ t use chokeholds , or you can ’ t shoot at a moving vehicle , and these sorts of things .
And while those things could do something in terms of the reduction of police violence , by Campaign Zero ’ s own admission on their website , the 72 % number , the reduction of police violence by 72 % , would only happen if you go @ @ @ @ @ @ @ having all eight at one time .
Then you would reduce police violence by 72 % .
But already across the country , a number of police departments have these reforms in place .
What that means , though , is that you ’ re not getting at what the actual issue is , and that is the broader issue of policing , as a structure , being meant to and always having been , in its historical roots , a measure of suppression , a measure of violent law enforcement , of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , the 8 to Abolition response , which has been led by Black feminist abolitionists , it ’ s to say these are actual forms that are also actionable items right now that you can do , that actually strike at the heart of policing .
It reduces points of contact with police so that we don ’ t have — we remove police from schools .
We ’ re decriminalizing so that we have fewer interactions with police .
We ’ re setting up community-led conflict resolution , so that people don @ @ @ @ @ @ @ minor conflicts , such as like noise complaints or parking violations and stuff like that , that could be held — that could be handled if we were talking to one another .
These are things that are actionable right now and that you can do to divest from the idea of policing , carceral logic that has seeped into all of our thinking , that the police are somehow a necessity in safety , when they have proven over and over that they ’ re not .
AMY GOODMAN : In a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be speaking with Alex Vitale , author of The End of Policing , but I wanted to ask you , Linda , about the 35-year-old African American man in Jamel Floyd — another Mr. Floyd — who died after being pepper-sprayed by guards inside the Metropolitan Detention Center .
Floyd had been held at the Brooklyn jail since October 2019 .
His family said he was asthmatic .
On Thursday , protesters gathered outside the MDC to demand justice for Floyd .
Inside , prisoners knocked on their walls in solidarity .
This @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Floyd , speaking at the protest .
AMY GOODMAN : Can you tell us , Linda — I mean , you have been marching , from Minneapolis to Louisville , now here in New York .
You ’ ve been involved with this , protesting this case .
We just have 30 seconds , but if you can tell us what happened to Jamel Floyd ?
LINDA SARSOUR : I have been in touch with the family and working with them .
This is a 35-year-old man who was about to be released @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for people who are pretrial or about to be released , so they are not a threat .
They are about to go home .
He was pepper-sprayed in his cell , where he was not a threat to any other inmate .
And so , we are outraged at MDC .
And I want people to remember , as we say , “ End police brutality , ” as we talk about Black Lives Matter , that also incarcerated Black lives matter .
And that means that we fight also the systems @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and sisters inside .
So , this case is ongoing .
We ’ re demanding investigations , and we ’ re demanding the firing of the corrections officers who pepper-sprayed Mr. Floyd .
He left behind a wife , a mother , a father , siblings , a 14-year-old daughter , who was actually about to celebrate her 14th birthday with her father upon his release .
So it is a very sad case , and it should never have happened .
And we need New York City to also focus not only @ @ @ @ @ @ @ also on justice for Jamel Floyd .
AMY GOODMAN : We want to thank you for being with us , Linda Sarsour , co-founder of Until Freedom ; Mychal Denzel Smith , author of Invisible Man , Got the Whole World Watching : A Young Black Man ’ s Education .
When we come back , we ’ ll speak with professor Alex Vitale , author of The End of Policing .
We ’ ll be back in 30 seconds .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The Quarantine Report. I’m Amy Goodman. After nearly two weeks of massive demonstrations here in New York City calling for police accountability, Mayor Bill de Blasio has pledged to shift some of New York funding for police and reallocate it to social services. He made the announcement in a press conference on Sunday.
MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO: We will be moving funding from the NYPD to youth initiatives and social services. The details will be worked out in the budget process in the weeks ahead. But I want people to understand that we are committed to shifting resources to ensure that the focus is on our young people.
AMY GOODMAN: The New York City Police Department has an annual budget of about $6 billion. That’s nearly 7% of Mayor de Blasio’s proposed $90 billion budget for 2021. This comes as Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti agreed last week to slash between $100 million to $150 million from proposed funding for police, and members of the Minneapolis City Council have vowed to dismantle the city’s police department.
For more, we’re joined by Linda Sarsour, Palestinian American Muslim organizer; author of We Are Not Here to Be Bystanders; co-founder of Until Freedom, which along with Communities United for Police Reform and Until Freedom has been pressuring New York City’s mayor to institute meaningful change around police accountability; a well-known activist, New Yorker.
Linda, welcome back to Democracy Now! Can you respond to what the mayor announced yesterday? This is like a day or two after he was — activists turned their backs on him, after they booed him when he came out to speak at one of the memorial services for George Floyd that was run by George Floyd’s brother, who lives here in New York.
LINDA SARSOUR: Let’s make sure that the credit goes where it’s due, Amy. The credit is to Communities United for Police Reform, the Justice Committee, the New York Justice League, the Gathering for Justice, Until Freedom, the many groups in New York City who have been doing police reform work for decades, and in the last for years have continued to pressure Mayor Bill de Blasio, who ran on a police reform platform, to actually make transformative change.
On Saturday, Amy, we marched from 110th and Central Park West, which was Frederick Douglass Monument, all the way to Washington Square Park. Over 50,000 people came out with us, and we had a set of demands. And one of the demands was defund the police and reappropriate funding to youth and communities. We also called on him — when the anti-chokehold bill gets to his desk, I don’t want to see him, I don’t want to hear his voice. I want him to put ink to paper and to sign that anti-chokehold bill.
We need his leadership right now. So, he can tell me that he’s going to defund the police or reappropriate funding, but we have to see that. We have to see him implement that. He has lied over and over to Black and Brown communities in New York City. So we want to see the actual tangible things that he’s going to be doing for us.
AMY GOODMAN: And Mayor de Blasio was long considered a progressive mayor. Your thoughts on this and what has happened since? And also, Governor Cuomo’s attacks on him, and his approach to law enforcement, Linda?
LINDA SARSOUR: If Mayor Bill de Blasio is a progressive, Amy, please don’t ever use that term to describe someone like me. Bill de Blasio is not a progressive. He ran as a progressive, but when he became the mayor, the NYPD started running him. I always wondered who was the actual mayor of New York City. Was it the mayor himself, or was it the NYPD?
And so, for me, what we’re looking for from Mayor Bill de Blasio — he only has a little time left right now, and he could really go out here with a legacy of really transforming the New York City budget, of defunding the police department, of actually listening and implementing the visions of Black and Brown communities. We protest, Amy, all the time in New York City, Black-led organizing, Brown people-led organizing. We know how to keep our communities safe. We are trained in deescalation. We are trained in bystander intervention.
And we have seen the brutality of the New York Police Department not just against innocent, unarmed people in our communities, but also against protesters. And in one of the largest democracies in the world, we watched the largest police force — who, you remember, Mayor Bloomberg said that if they were an army, the NYPD, they would be the seventh-largest army in the world. And they have been brutalizing protesters across New York City. The mayor has not asked NYPD to stand down. And we’re tired of it. And I’m looking forward to seeing the New York City Council also hold the mayor accountable and not doing any handshakes with the budget unless we defund the New York Police Department.
AMY GOODMAN: So, Linda Sarsour, this call to defund the police, that is echoing throughout the country, explain exactly what it means. And would you say that it goes along the lines of what the Minneapolis City Council says they’re going to do within the next year, and that is dismantle the police department? Is it to completely cut off the $6 billion to the New York Police Department or reallocate a lot of money?
LINDA SARSOUR: I just want to make it clear that the movement to end police brutality, the movement for the sanctity of Black life, is being led by Black women and Black people, and they have been calling for the abolition of police, many for decades, and some longer than that. So I just want to make it clear that the long-term goal for many in the movement is the abolition of police, is the abolition of prisons.
But when we say “defund the police today,” we do not mean that tomorrow you’re going to wake up and not find a single police officer around. That is not what defunding the police means right now at this moment. What it really means, Amy — and it’s very rational, and it’s very reasonable — is that we need to take cops out of our schools, cops out of addressing mental health crises, cops out of addressing homelessness, and reallocate those resources to services, to adequate housing, to case management, to economic opportunities in our community, to reinstate programs like the Summer Youth Employment Program, to make sure that we have, for example, protective equipment for healthcare workers, making sure that we have clinics and hospitals and access to healthcare for Black and Brown people, for undocumented people in our communities, better buses and better infrastructure and better transportation.
So what we’re saying is, let the cops do what the cops are supposed to do: keep people safe. They are not social workers. They are not mental health professionals. They are not educators. So they are actually engaging in activity that does not match the qualifications nor the criteria of a police officer. That is not what they are trained to do in the police academy, so why are we sending them to address things that have nothing to do with them?
So, what we’re saying is, in New York City, the police department has one of the largest budgets of any agency, in fact maybe the largest of all agencies in New York City. All we’re saying is, decrease their budget, take that money and reappropriate it into youth, seniors, community development, and with a focus on those who have been the most directly impacted, focused on communities of color, poor working-class people.
And when you have this conversation, Amy, with people who do not understand what defund the police is — I have not had one conversation with a white ally or a neighbor in a place like Bay Ridge, which has a lot of pro-law-enforcement people — people say to me, “You make sense. This is absolutely rational. It is absolutely reasonable.”
So we’re not saying, you know, delete the police officers off the face of the Earth tomorrow. But what we’re saying is, reappropriate the funding, and let’s put it back in the services that our community needs, so we can be healthy, we can be safe, and we can be secure, and we can have communities that thrive and not only survive in New York City.
AMY GOODMAN: In a little bit of time, I want to ask you about a man who died in captivity — right? — in the Metropolitan Detention Center, who was pepper-sprayed, Linda. But I first want to go to Mychal Denzel Smith, fellow at Type Media Center, author of Invisible Man, Got the Whole World Watching: A Young Black Man’s Education. His forthcoming book is Stakes Is High: Life After the American Dream.
I wanted to ask you about this whole call to defund the police, Mychal, and also Governor Cuomo’s discussion of what he’s calling the “Say Their Name” bill. This is at the New York state level. He says the next wave of reform will be shift funding from NYPD to youth and social services, reform 50-A, transparency — well, that was what the mayor is calling for. But the governor, in their “Say Their Name” bill, is calling for a number of different demands. And I want to get your sense of what exactly that “Say Their Name” bill means, when he says more transparency, the New York attorney general will be in charge of prosecution of police, there should be no chokeholds, and other issues, Mychal.
MYCHAL DENZEL SMITH: Well, those are things that are on the back end of this issue, right? Like, the defund the police demand is an abolitionist demand, one. We have to understand and to recognize it as such. The shifting of funds from the police department — currently, as you stated, the New York City Police Department’s budget nearly $6 billion, almost $2 billion in Los Angeles, constituting almost 18% of their city budget. It’s similar numbers in Chicago and other large cities. Those are funds that could go toward building the type of institutions and infrastructure for the health and safety of people, like Linda was just saying. You can invest that money in things that people actually need.
I mean, the one thing that’s come of this global pandemic of COVID-19 is an understanding of what constitutes essential, what do we actually need. And police have shown that they are inessential. They not there to do what people imagine them to do. They don’t protect, and they don’t serve, unless you are rich and white. And so, in that instance, if you continue to fund the police at the rates that you do, and you are denying other services those funds, what you set up is an untenable situation in which you always need the police, or “need” the police, because a system of inequality requires that violent enforcer when there are uprisings, as we’ve seen the police enact in the suppression of these uprisings in the past couple weeks.
So, the call for defunding the police really is sort of the first thing, right? It is one of the first demands. It goes along with decriminalization. It goes along with the building of new institutions that are actually community-oriented safety measures, and also getting rid of white supremacists, heteropatriarchal capitalism, taking a shot right at the heart of what that means and how that is undergirding every institution in the United States. Defunding the police is one step toward that. And it’s a crucial step because it gets people to understand that they have prioritized the police in ways that are unhealthy for so many of us, that are dangerous, that threaten our lives.
AMY GOODMAN: Let me ask you about Campaign Zero, efforts at reform. They released an 8 Can’t Wait campaign with eight reforms they claim would reduce police killings by almost three-quarters. Abolitionists are responding with an 8 to Abolition platform. Explain all of that.
MYCHAL DENZEL SMITH: Yeah, so, in the midst of this Campaign Zero, which is an organization of sorts that came out of the Ferguson uprisings and has been at the forefront of activists organizing around police violence, they’ve delivered to us stats on policing and police violence and use of force that have been crucial, and they’ve been uncovering things about police union contracts. And those things are really essential.
But their program, the 8 Can’t Wait, the policy reforms that they issued, and came along with this nice graphic, and it was shared on social media, they’re really milquetoast reforms, right? And what they do is sort of change the rules of engagement for police, right? Like, they say, you know, you have to issue a warning before shooting, or you can’t use chokeholds, or you can’t shoot at a moving vehicle, and these sorts of things. And while those things could do something in terms of the reduction of police violence, by Campaign Zero’s own admission on their website, the 72% number, the reduction of police violence by 72%, would only happen if you go from having zero of these reforms to having all eight at one time. Then you would reduce police violence by 72%. But already across the country, a number of police departments have these reforms in place.
What that means, though, is that you’re not getting at what the actual issue is, and that is the broader issue of policing, as a structure, being meant to and always having been, in its historical roots, a measure of suppression, a measure of violent law enforcement, of white supremacy and capitalism.
And so, the 8 to Abolition response, which has been led by Black feminist abolitionists, it’s to say these are actual forms that are also actionable items right now that you can do, that actually strike at the heart of policing. It reduces points of contact with police so that we don’t have — we remove police from schools. We’re decriminalizing so that we have fewer interactions with police. We’re setting up community-led conflict resolution, so that people don’t call the police for these minor conflicts, such as like noise complaints or parking violations and stuff like that, that could be held — that could be handled if we were talking to one another. These are things that are actionable right now and that you can do to divest from the idea of policing, carceral logic that has seeped into all of our thinking, that the police are somehow a necessity in safety, when they have proven over and over that they’re not.
AMY GOODMAN: In a moment, we’re going to be speaking with Alex Vitale, author of The End of Policing, but I wanted to ask you, Linda, about the 35-year-old African American man in Jamel Floyd — another Mr. Floyd — who died after being pepper-sprayed by guards inside the Metropolitan Detention Center. Floyd had been held at the Brooklyn jail since October 2019. His family said he was asthmatic. On Thursday, protesters gathered outside the MDC to demand justice for Floyd. Inside, prisoners knocked on their walls in solidarity. This is Floyd’s father, James Floyd, speaking at the protest.
JAMES FLOYD: They claim he had a heart attack. They lied. They all lie. The truth will come out! The truth will show!
AMY GOODMAN: Can you tell us, Linda — I mean, you have been marching, from Minneapolis to Louisville, now here in New York. You’ve been involved with this, protesting this case. We just have 30 seconds, but if you can tell us what happened to Jamel Floyd?
LINDA SARSOUR: I have been in touch with the family and working with them. This is a 35-year-old man who was about to be released from prison very soon. MDC is for people who are pretrial or about to be released, so they are not a threat. They are about to go home. He was pepper-sprayed in his cell, where he was not a threat to any other inmate. And so, we are outraged at MDC.
And I want people to remember, as we say, “End police brutality,” as we talk about Black Lives Matter, that also incarcerated Black lives matter. And that means that we fight also the systems of incarceration that also kill our brothers and sisters inside.
So, this case is ongoing. We’re demanding investigations, and we’re demanding the firing of the corrections officers who pepper-sprayed Mr. Floyd. He left behind a wife, a mother, a father, siblings, a 14-year-old daughter, who was actually about to celebrate her 14th birthday with her father upon his release. So it is a very sad case, and it should never have happened. And we need New York City to also focus not only on our brother George Floyd, but also on justice for Jamel Floyd.
AMY GOODMAN: We want to thank you for being with us, Linda Sarsour, co-founder of Until Freedom; Mychal Denzel Smith, author of Invisible Man, Got the Whole World Watching: A Young Black Man’s Education.
When we come back, we’ll speak with professor Alex Vitale, author of The End of Policing. We’ll be back in 30 seconds.