democracynow--2020-01-14--"Floaters": Martín Espada Pays Tribute to Salvadoran Father & Daughter Who Drowned at U.S. Border

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : Martín , we want you to be able to read one more poem .
Introduce “ Floaters ” to us , please , and then just take it away .
MARTÍN ESPADA : Sure .
Most of your viewers and listeners will be familiar with the photograph that went viral of Óscar and Valeria , two Salvadoran migrants , a father and daughter , who drowned in the Rio Grande .
You may not be familiar with the “ I ’ m @ @ @ @ @ @ @ where there was some trutherism going on regarding that photograph .
And so I wrote a poem in response .
It ’ s called , indeed , “ Floaters.
” That ’ s the term the Border Patrol uses to describe those who have drowned crossing over .
Like a beer bottle thrown into the river by a boy too drunk to cry , like the shard of a Styrofoam cup drained of coffee brown as the river , like the plank of a fishing boat broken in half by the river , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have a name : floaters , say the men of the Border Patrol , keeping watch all night by the river , hearts pumping coffee as they say the word floaters , soft as a bubble , hard as a shoe as it nudges the body , to see if it breathes , to see if it moans , to see if it sits up and speaks .
And the dead have names , a feast day parade of names , names that dress all in red , names that twirl skirts , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ shake rattles , names that sing in praise of the saints : Say Óscar Alberto Martínez Ramírez .
Say Angie Valeria Martínez Ávalos .
See how they rise off the tongue , the calling of bird to bird somewhere in the trees above our heads , trilling in the dark heart of the leaves .
Say what we know of them now they are dead : Óscar slapped dough for pizza with oven-blistered fingers .
Daughter Valeria sang , banging a toy guitar .
He slipped free of the apron he wore in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the motorcycle he would kick till it sputtered to life , counted off pesos for the journey across the river , and the last of his twenty-five years , and the last of her twenty-three months .
There is another name that beats its wings in the heart of the trees : Say Tania Vanessa Ávalos , Óscar ’ s wife and Valeria ’ s mother , the witness stumbling along the river .
Now their names rise off her tongue : Say Óscar y Valeria .
He swam from Matamoros across to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ neck , stood her in the weeds on the Texas side of the river , swore to return with her mother in hand , turning his back as fathers do who later say : I turned around and she was gone .
In the time it takes for a bird to hop from branch to branch , Valeria jumped in the river after her father .
Maybe he called out her name as he swept her up from the river ; maybe the river drowned out his voice as the water swept them @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the saints , but the saints drowsed in the stupor of birds in the dark , their cages covered with blankets .
The men on patrol would never hear their pleas for asylum , watching for floaters , hearts pumping coffee all night on the Texas side of the river .
No one , they say , had ever seen floaters so clean : Óscar ’ s black shirt yanked up to the armpits , Valeria ’ s arm slung around her father ’ s neck even after the light left her @ @ @ @ @ @ @ weeds , back on the Mexican side of the river .
Another edited photo : See how her head disappears in his shirt , the waterlogged diaper bunched in her pants , the blue of the blue cans .
The radio warned us about the crisis actors we see at one school shooting after another ; the man called Óscar will breathe , sit up , speak , tug the black shirt over his head , shower off the mud and shake hands with the photographer .
Yet , the floaters did not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ showing off the backstroke , nor did their souls float up to Dallas , land of rumored jobs and a president shot in the head as he waved from his motorcade .
No bubbles rose from their breath in the mud , light as the iridescent circles of soap that would fascinate a two-year old .
And the dead still have names , names that sing in praise of the saints , names that flower in blossoms of white , a cortege of names dressed all in black , trailing the coffins to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ headlines and gravestones they would never know in the kitchens of this cacophonous world .
Enter their names in the book of names .
Say Óscar Alberto Martínez Ramírez ; say Angie Valeria Martínez Ávalos .
Bury them in a corner of the cemetery named for the sainted archbishop of the poor , shot in the heart saying mass , bullets bought by the taxes I paid when I worked as a bouncer and fractured my hand forty years ago , and bumper stickers read : El Salvador is Spanish for Vietnam .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ the body , may the men who speak of floaters , who have never seen floaters this clean , float through the clouds to the heavens , where they paddle the air as they wait for the saint who flips through the keys on his ring like a drowsy janitor , till he fingers the key that turns the lock and shuts the gate on their babble-tongued faces , and they plunge back to earth , a shower of hailstones pelting the river , the Mexican side of the river .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: Martín, we want you to be able to read one more poem. Introduce “Floaters” to us, please, and then just take it away.
MARTÍN ESPADA: Sure. Most of your viewers and listeners will be familiar with the photograph that went viral of Óscar and Valeria, two Salvadoran migrants, a father and daughter, who drowned in the Rio Grande. You may not be familiar with the “I’m 10-15” Border Patrol Facebook group, where there was some trutherism going on regarding that photograph. And so I wrote a poem in response. It’s called, indeed, “Floaters.” That’s the term the Border Patrol uses to describe those who have drowned crossing over.
Floaters
Ok, I’m gonna go ahead and ask…have ya’ll ever seen floaters this clean. I’m not trying to be an a$$ but I HAVE NEVER SEEN FLOATERS LIKE THIS, could this be another edited photo. We’ve all seen the dems and liberal parties do some pretty sick things. –Anonymous post, “I’m 10-15” Border Patrol Facebook group
Like a beer bottle thrown into the river by a boy too drunk to cry,
like the shard of a Styrofoam cup drained of coffee brown as the river,
like the plank of a fishing boat broken in half by the river, the dead float.
And the dead have a name: floaters, say the men of the Border Patrol,
keeping watch all night by the river, hearts pumping coffee as they say
the word floaters, soft as a bubble, hard as a shoe as it nudges the body,
to see if it breathes, to see if it moans, to see if it sits up and speaks.
And the dead have names, a feast day parade of names, names that
dress all in red, names that twirl skirts, names that blow whistles,
names that shake rattles, names that sing in praise of the saints:
Say Óscar Alberto Martínez Ramírez. Say Angie Valeria Martínez Ávalos.
See how they rise off the tongue, the calling of bird to bird somewhere
in the trees above our heads, trilling in the dark heart of the leaves.
Say what we know of them now they are dead: Óscar slapped dough
for pizza with oven-blistered fingers. Daughter Valeria sang, banging
a toy guitar. He slipped free of the apron he wore in the blast of the oven,
sold the motorcycle he would kick till it sputtered to life, counted off
pesos for the journey across the river, and the last of his twenty-five
years, and the last of her twenty-three months. There is another name
that beats its wings in the heart of the trees: Say Tania Vanessa Ávalos,
Óscar’s wife and Valeria’s mother, the witness stumbling along the river.
Now their names rise off her tongue: Say Óscar y Valeria. He swam
from Matamoros across to Brownsville, the girl slung around his neck,
stood her in the weeds on the Texas side of the river, swore to return
with her mother in hand, turning his back as fathers do who later say:
I turned around and she was gone. In the time it takes for a bird to hop
from branch to branch, Valeria jumped in the river after her father.
Maybe he called out her name as he swept her up from the river;
maybe the river drowned out his voice as the water swept them away.
Tania called out the names of the saints, but the saints drowsed
in the stupor of birds in the dark, their cages covered with blankets.
The men on patrol would never hear their pleas for asylum, watching
for floaters, hearts pumping coffee all night on the Texas side of the river.
No one, they say, had ever seen floaters so clean: Óscar’s black shirt
yanked up to the armpits, Valeria’s arm slung around her father’s
neck even after the light left her eyes, both face down in the weeds,
back on the Mexican side of the river. Another edited photo: See how
her head disappears in his shirt, the waterlogged diaper bunched
in her pants, the blue of the blue cans. The radio warned us about
the crisis actors we see at one school shooting after another; the man
called Óscar will breathe, sit up, speak, tug the black shirt over
his head, shower off the mud and shake hands with the photographer.
Yet, the floaters did not float down the Río Grande like Olympians
showing off the backstroke, nor did their souls float up to Dallas,
land of rumored jobs and a president shot in the head as he waved
from his motorcade. No bubbles rose from their breath in the mud,
light as the iridescent circles of soap that would fascinate a two-year old.
And the dead still have names, names that sing in praise of the saints,
names that flower in blossoms of white, a cortege of names dressed
all in black, trailing the coffins to the cemetery. Carve their names
in headlines and gravestones they would never know in the kitchens
of this cacophonous world. Enter their names in the book of names.
Say Óscar Alberto Martínez Ramírez; say Angie Valeria Martínez Ávalos.
Bury them in a corner of the cemetery named for the sainted archbishop
of the poor, shot in the heart saying mass, bullets bought by the taxes
I paid when I worked as a bouncer and fractured my hand forty years
ago, and bumper stickers read: El Salvador is Spanish for Vietnam.
When the last bubble of breath escapes the body, may the men
who speak of floaters, who have never seen floaters this clean,
float through the clouds to the heavens, where they paddle the air
as they wait for the saint who flips through the keys on his ring
like a drowsy janitor, till he fingers the key that turns the lock and shuts
the gate on their babble-tongued faces, and they plunge back to earth,
a shower of hailstones pelting the river, the Mexican side of the river.


democracynow--2020-01-14--"Morir Soñando": Martín Espada Reads Poem About Luis Garden Acosta, Young Lord & Community Activist

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
I ’ m Amy Goodman , with Juan Gonzalez .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : Last week marked the one-year anniversary of the passing of Luis Garden Acosta , the founder and longtime president of the nationally known El Puente youth and community leadership program in Brooklyn .
Long regarded as one of New York City ’ s foremost human rights and Latino community activists , Garden died last January at the age of 72 .
A former seminarian @ @ @ @ @ @ @ antiwar movement , Garden joined the Young Lords Party in 1970 and later founded the group ’ s Massachusetts chapter while he was still a student at Harvard Medical School .
AMY GOODMAN : Luis Garden Acosta went on to pioneer successful nonviolent direct action campaigns against segregated public schools and against environmental racism here in New York City .
In his later years , together with his wife Frances Lucerna , Garden Acosta created an alternative public high school geared toward human rights activism , the El Puente Academy for Peace and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ legacy , we ’ re joined now by the renowned poet Martín Espada .
He is a professor of English at the University of Massachusetts Amherst , author of more than 20 books .
His latest collection of poems is called Vivas to Those Who Have Failed .
You wrote a poem , Martín , dedicated to Luis Garden Acosta .
I was wondering if you could talk about him and share your poem with us .
MARTÍN ESPADA : Yes , of course .
Thank you .
Luis Garden Acosta was an @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
He was also a beloved friend and mentor .
And I wrote this poem based on an encounter that I had with Luis at the beginning of El Puente .
It ’ s called “ Morir Soñando , ” which means “ To Die Dreaming.
” I saw the empty cross atop the empty church on South 4th Street , as if Jesus flapped his arms and flew away , spooked by one ambulance siren too many .
I saw the stained glass windows I wanted to break with a brick , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Angels hovering innocent as spies over the congregation , and wanted to know why you brought me here , the son of a man punched in the face by a priest for questioning the Trinity , who punched him back .
This is El Puente , you said .
The Bridge .
I knew about the Williamsburg Bridge , eight lanes of traffic and the subway stampeding in the open windows of the barrio all summer .
You spread your arms in that abandoned church and saw the spinning of a carousel better @ @ @ @ @ @ @ down at Coney Island : here the ESL classes for the neighbors cursed with swollen tongues in English ; there the clinics on contraception , the pestilence in the veins of the unsuspecting ; here the karate lessons , feet spearing the air to keep schoolyard demons away ; there the dancers in white , swirling their skirts to the drumming of bomba ; here the workshops on Puerto Rican history , La Masacre de Ponce where your mother ’ s beloved painted his last words on the street with a fingertip of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , first year , memorizing law school Latin , listening to classical guitar on my boom box as I studied the rules of property : It ’ s mine .
It ’ s not yours .
I saw only what could be proven by a preponderance of the evidence : the church abandoned by the church , the cross atop the church abandoned by the Son of God .
My belly empty as Saint Mary of the Angels , I told you I was hungry , and we left .
I wanted Chinese @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Chinese take-out down the block where you stood behind a man who shrieked about the price of wonton soup , left and returned with a can of gasoline , splashed it on the floor and pulled a box of kitchen matches from his pocket .
Will you wait till I pick up my egg roll and pork fried rice ?
you said , with a high school teacher ’ s exasperated authority , so he did .
You could talk an arsonist into postponing his inferno till you left with lunch , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ dead in the ER at Greenpoint Hospital , even in your suit and tie .
You couldn ’ t convince the girl called Sugar to rise from the gurney after the gunshot drained the blood from her body .
You couldn ’ t persuade the doctor who peeled his gloves and shook his head to bring her back to life , telling him do it again , an arsonist in medical scrubs trying to strike a wet match .
You couldn ’ t jumpstart the calliope in her heart so the carousel of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ again .
Whenever you saw the gutted church , you would see the sheets of the gurney dipped in red , all the gurneys rolling into the ER with a sacrifice of adolescents .
We walked to the luncheonette on Havemeyer Street .
A red awning announced Morir Soñando .
To Die Dreaming , you said , from the DR , my father ’ s island .
The boy at the counter who spoke no English , brown as my father , called Martín like me , grinned the way you grinned at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Angels .
He squeezed the oranges into a drizzle of juice with evaporated milk , cane sugar and ice , shook the elixir and poured it till the froth spilled over the lip of the glass .
Foam freckled my snout as I raised my hand for another .
Intoxicated by morir soñando number three and the prophet gently rocking at my table , I had a vision : ESL classes healing the jaws wired shut by English , clinics full of adolescents studying the secrets of the body unspeakable in the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ landing bare feet on the mat with a thump and grunt in unison , bomba dancers twirling to a song in praise of Yoruba gods abolished by the priests , the words of Puerto Rican rebels painted on the walls by brushes dipped in every color , pressed in the pages of notebooks by a generation condemned to amnesia .
Morir soñando : Luis , I know you died dreaming of South 4th Street , the banners that said no to the toxic waste plant down the block or the Navy bombarding an @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of miles away .
Morir soñando : I know you died dreaming of vejigantes , carnival máscaras bristling with horns that dangled with the angels at El Puente .
Morir soñando : I know you died dreaming of the next El Puente .
Morir soñando : I know you died dreaming of the hammer ’ s claw , the drill whining to the screw , the dust like snow in a globe , then the shy genius raising her hand in the back of the room .
Morir soñando : I know you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of weed in the parking lot , then stood before the mike you electrified for them and rubbed their eyes when the faces in their poems crowded there , waiting for the first word , so we could all die dreaming , morir soñando , intoxicated by the elixir of the tongue , oh rocking prophet at my table .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : Martín Espada , award-winning poet and professor of English at the University Massachusetts Amherst .
Tell us in your own words your — how you came to know Luis Garden @ @ @ @ @ @ @ your friend but was a friend of your father , the late Frank Espada , the great photographer .
AMY GOODMAN : And , Juan , a dear friend of yours , as well .
MARTÍN ESPADA : Yes .
My father , Frank Espada , was indeed not only a documentary photographer and the creator of the Puerto Rican Diaspora Documentary Project , he was a community activist .
He was the founder of something called East New York Action , on Blake Avenue in East New York .
He worked for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And Luis was a political protégé of my father .
We lived in the Linden projects in East New York .
And I woke up one morning — and I must have been 7 or 8 years old , so this is , say , 1965 — and I found Luis sprawled on the couch asleep .
I woke him up .
And to keep me quiet so I didn ’ t wake up the rest of the household , he had me bring him a book .
It was Macbeth .
Apparently @ @ @ @ @ @ @ He opened it up , he read these passages , and I was enthralled .
He then asked me to memorize the same passage that he read .
And then he was astonished when , a few weeks later , he came back , and it turned out that I indeed had memorized it .
He was a personal inspiration for me over the years .
When I was 20 years old , he handed me an anthology called Latin American Revolutionary Poetry , edited by Roberto Márquez .
And he said , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And here I am .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now! I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan Gonzalez.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Last week marked the one-year anniversary of the passing of Luis Garden Acosta, the founder and longtime president of the nationally known El Puente youth and community leadership program in Brooklyn. Long regarded as one of New York City’s foremost human rights and Latino community activists, Garden died last January at the age of 72. A former seminarian who had been active in the Catholic antiwar movement, Garden joined the Young Lords Party in 1970 and later founded the group’s Massachusetts chapter while he was still a student at Harvard Medical School.
AMY GOODMAN: Luis Garden Acosta went on to pioneer successful nonviolent direct action campaigns against segregated public schools and against environmental racism here in New York City. In his later years, together with his wife Frances Lucerna, Garden Acosta created an alternative public high school geared toward human rights activism, the El Puente Academy for Peace and Justice.
Well, to honor his legacy, we’re joined now by the renowned poet Martín Espada. He is a professor of English at the University of Massachusetts Amherst, author of more than 20 books. His latest collection of poems is called Vivas to Those Who Have Failed.
You wrote a poem, Martín, dedicated to Luis Garden Acosta. I was wondering if you could talk about him and share your poem with us.
MARTÍN ESPADA: Yes, of course. Thank you. Luis Garden Acosta was an organizational genius. He was a visionary. He was also a beloved friend and mentor. And I wrote this poem based on an encounter that I had with Luis at the beginning of El Puente. It’s called “Morir Soñando,” which means “To Die Dreaming.”
Morir Soñando
For Luis Garden Acosta (1945-2019)
Brooklyn, New York
I saw the empty cross atop the empty church on South 4th Street, as if Jesus
flapped his arms and flew away, spooked by one ambulance siren too many.
I saw the stained glass windows I wanted to break with a brick, the mural
of Saint Mary and the Angels hovering innocent as spies over the congregation,
and wanted to know why you brought me here, the son of a man punched
in the face by a priest for questioning the Trinity, who punched him back.
This is El Puente, you said. The Bridge. I knew about the Williamsburg Bridge,
eight lanes of traffic and the subway stampeding in the open windows of the barrio
all summer. You spread your arms in that abandoned church and saw the spinning
of a carousel better than any wooden horses pumping up and down at Coney Island:
here the ESL classes for the neighbors cursed with swollen tongues in English;
there the clinics on contraception, the pestilence in the veins of the unsuspecting;
here the karate lessons, feet spearing the air to keep schoolyard demons away;
there the dancers in white, swirling their skirts to the drumming of bomba;
here the workshops on Puerto Rican history, La Masacre de Ponce where your
mother’s beloved painted his last words on the street with a fingertip of blood.
I was a law student, first year, memorizing law school Latin, listening to classical
guitar on my boom box as I studied the rules of property: It’s mine. It’s not yours.
I saw only what could be proven by a preponderance of the evidence: the church
abandoned by the church, the cross atop the church abandoned by the Son of God.
My belly empty as Saint Mary of the Angels, I told you I was hungry, and we left.
I wanted Chinese food, but you told me about the Chinese take-out down the block
where you stood behind a man who shrieked about the price of wonton soup,
left and returned with a can of gasoline, splashed it on the floor and pulled a box
of kitchen matches from his pocket. Will you wait till I pick up my egg roll and pork
fried rice? you said, with a high school teacher’s exasperated authority, so he did.
You could talk an arsonist into postponing his inferno till you left with lunch,
but you couldn’t raise the dead in the ER at Greenpoint Hospital, even in your suit
and tie. You couldn’t convince the girl called Sugar to rise from the gurney after
the gunshot drained the blood from her body. You couldn’t persuade the doctor who
peeled his gloves and shook his head to bring her back to life, telling him do it again,
an arsonist in medical scrubs trying to strike a wet match. You couldn’t jumpstart
the calliope in her heart so the carousel of horses would rise and fall and rise again.
Whenever you saw the gutted church, you would see the sheets of the gurney
dipped in red, all the gurneys rolling into the ER with a sacrifice of adolescents.
We walked to the luncheonette on Havemeyer Street. A red awning announced
Morir Soñando. To Die Dreaming, you said, from the DR, my father’s island.
The boy at the counter who spoke no English, brown as my father, called Martín
like me, grinned the way you grinned at El Puente, once Saint Mary of the Angels.
He squeezed the oranges into a drizzle of juice with evaporated milk, cane sugar
and ice, shook the elixir and poured it till the froth spilled over the lip of the glass.
Foam freckled my snout as I raised my hand for another. Intoxicated by morir
soñando number three and the prophet gently rocking at my table, I had a vision:
ESL classes healing the jaws wired shut by English, clinics full of adolescents
studying the secrets of the body unspeakable in the kitchen or the confessional,
karate students landing bare feet on the mat with a thump and grunt in unison,
bomba dancers twirling to a song in praise of Yoruba gods abolished by the priests,
the words of Puerto Rican rebels painted on the walls by brushes dipped in every
color, pressed in the pages of notebooks by a generation condemned to amnesia.
Morir soñando: Luis, I know you died dreaming of South 4th Street, the banners
that said no to the toxic waste plant down the block or the Navy bombarding
an island of fishermen for target practice thousands of miles away. Morir soñando:
I know you died dreaming of vejigantes, carnival máscaras bristling with horns
that dangled with the angels at El Puente. Morir soñando: I know you died dreaming
of the next El Puente. Morir soñando: I know you died dreaming of the hammer’s claw,
the drill whining to the screw, the dust like snow in a globe, then the shy genius
raising her hand in the back of the room. Morir soñando: I know you died dreaming
of the poets who stank of weed in the parking lot, then stood before the mike
you electrified for them and rubbed their eyes when the faces in their poems
crowded there, waiting for the first word, so we could all die dreaming, morir
soñando, intoxicated by the elixir of the tongue, oh rocking prophet at my table.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Martín Espada, award-winning poet and professor of English at the University Massachusetts Amherst. Tell us in your own words your — how you came to know Luis Garden. I know he was not only your friend but was a friend of your father, the late Frank Espada, the great photographer.
AMY GOODMAN: And, Juan, a dear friend of yours, as well.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Yes.
MARTÍN ESPADA: Yes. My father, Frank Espada, was indeed not only a documentary photographer and the creator of the Puerto Rican Diaspora Documentary Project, he was a community activist. He was the founder of something called East New York Action, on Blake Avenue in East New York. He worked for the Lindsay administration for a while.
And Luis was a political protégé of my father. We lived in the Linden projects in East New York. And I woke up one morning — and I must have been 7 or 8 years old, so this is, say, 1965 — and I found Luis sprawled on the couch asleep. I woke him up. And to keep me quiet so I didn’t wake up the rest of the household, he had me bring him a book. It was Macbeth. Apparently, he played Macbeth at school. He opened it up, he read these passages, and I was enthralled. He then asked me to memorize the same passage that he read. And then he was astonished when, a few weeks later, he came back, and it turned out that I indeed had memorized it.
He was a personal inspiration for me over the years. When I was 20 years old, he handed me an anthology called Latin American Revolutionary Poetry, edited by Roberto Márquez. And he said, “You will be a poet.” And here I am.


democracynow--2020-01-15--Democrats Debate Wealth Tax, Free Public College & Student Debt Relief as Part of New Economic Plan

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : Let ’ s turn to higher education .
This is former South Bend Mayor Pete Buttigieg , who was asked why he opposes proposals for free public college .
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN : So , look , the way I think we need to do this is we need a wealth tax in America .
We need to ask people with fortunes above $ 50 million to pay more .
And that means that the lowliest millionaire that I would tax under @ @ @ @ @ @ @ $ 19 million in the first year in taxes .
If he wants to send his kid to public university , then I ’ m OK with that , because what we really need to talk about is the bigger economic picture here .
We need to be willing to put a wealth tax in place , to ask those giant corporations that are not paying to pay , because that ’ s how we build an economy and , for those who want to talk about it , bring down the national @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that ’ s Elizabeth Warren and Pete Buttigieg .
Alexis Goldstein , activist and contributor to Truthout.org , talk about this and Warren yesterday laying out a plan for abolishing student debt .
ALEXIS GOLDSTEIN : So , I think this issue is actually one of the most important ones that the Democratic Party needs to decide on when it comes what direction are they going to go in .
We essentially have a disagreement between the progressive candidates and the moderate candidates about whether or not we want to pursue a universal @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a public good , much in the way that K-12 education is treated as a public good .
And I believe , and I think the data bears out , that when you make benefits universal , they are more resilient , they are more robust , they can withstand attacks that come from austerity , that even come from reactionaryism .
We see this with Medicaid , and we see this with Social Security , which are incredibly popular across the political spectrum and have withstood many attacks by past administrations to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to reduce them .
And so , I think people also need to remember that there used to be free public college in the United States in California prior to the election of Governor Ronald Reagan .
And then he essentially made that a signature issue in his campaign and really began the end to free public college in California , which has sort of been reduced ever since .
And there also used to be free public college in the state of New York , in the CUNY system .
And so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for us in the United States , but it ’ s treated as if it ’ s something strange and something we should be skeptical of .
You know , the mayor of South Bend has always used this as an attempt to wedge people and say , “ Oh , well , we don ’ t want to give this benefit to millionaires and billionaires.
” Millionaires and billionaires , first of all , send their children to public colleges at a much lower rate than the rest of the population .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ — you know , I ’ m queer , and I know that there are a lot of people who sometimes are disowned by their families .
And I ’ m a little disappointed , frankly , to see , you know , the first openly gay major Democratic primary candidate sort of ignore that simple fact that sometimes LGBTQ folks are disowned from their families .
And so , if you have a millionaire or billionaire who disowns their LGBTQ child , you know , they won ’ t be able to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the most important point here is that we need to build programs that can resist any attacks on them , wherever they come from .
One of the things that we saw , you know , we ’ ve seen historically — there was a 2018 study that sociologists put out that said that if white Americans see that a benefits program is going to benefit black Americans , they are less likely to approve of it and to be in favor of it .
And one of the ways that you can @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , really , is with universal programs , where everyone benefits and you don ’ t have either racial resentment or class resentment .
Now , I should mention that usually those perceptions by white Americans are completely false .
There ’ s lots of data and lots of studies that show that white Americans think that black Americans and brown Americans benefit from programs like SNAP and TANF at rates that are far lower than they do .
White Americans often make up the majority of those programs .
But this is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , for the Democratic Party .
And I think going the route of universal benefits is really the way to go .
Amy , you also mentioned Warren ’ s plan yesterday .
ALEXIS GOLDSTEIN : Oh , about the student debt cancellation plan .
That ’ s something that would benefit the entire economy for all .
If we cancel student debt , that ’ s going to benefit everyone .
And that ’ s a real strong reason , in my opinion , to do it .
There ’ s a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ year , over 10 years , boost to the economy if we cancel student debt on a wide scale .
AMY GOODMAN : We ’ re going to have to leave it there .
We want to thank you Alexis Goldstein , who writes for Truthout .
Thank you so much to the Native American journalist Julian Brave NoiseCat , to Larry Hamm , who ’ s head of the Bernie Sanders 2020 committee in New Jersey , has just announced he ’ s running for Senate against Cory Booker .
Julio Ricardo @ @ @ @ @ @ @ joining us from Boston .
And , Phyllis Bennis , thanks so much for joining us , as well , from the Institute for Policy Studies .
That does it for our broadcast .
I ’ m Amy Goodman , with Juan González .
Thanks for joining us .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: Let’s turn to higher education. This is former South Bend Mayor Pete Buttigieg, who was asked why he opposes proposals for free public college.
PETE BUTTIGIEG: We’ve got to be making sure that we target our tax dollars where they will make the biggest difference. And I don’t think subsidizing the children of millionaires and billionaires to pay absolutely zero in tuition at public colleges is the best use of those scarce taxpayer dollars.
BRIANNE PFANNENSTIEL: Senator Warren?
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN: So, look, the way I think we need to do this is we need a wealth tax in America. We need to ask people with fortunes above $50 million to pay more. And that means that the lowliest millionaire that I would tax under this wealth tax would be paying about $19 million in the first year in taxes. If he wants to send his kid to public university, then I’m OK with that, because what we really need to talk about is the bigger economic picture here. We need to be willing to put a wealth tax in place, to ask those giant corporations that are not paying to pay, because that’s how we build an economy and, for those who want to talk about it, bring down the national debt.
AMY GOODMAN: So, that’s Elizabeth Warren and Pete Buttigieg. Alexis Goldstein, activist and contributor to Truthout.org, talk about this and Warren yesterday laying out a plan for abolishing student debt.
ALEXIS GOLDSTEIN: So, I think this issue is actually one of the most important ones that the Democratic Party needs to decide on when it comes what direction are they going to go in. We essentially have a disagreement between the progressive candidates and the moderate candidates about whether or not we want to pursue a universal benefit for higher education and make it a public good, much in the way that K-12 education is treated as a public good.
And I believe, and I think the data bears out, that when you make benefits universal, they are more resilient, they are more robust, they can withstand attacks that come from austerity, that even come from reactionaryism. We see this with Medicaid, and we see this with Social Security, which are incredibly popular across the political spectrum and have withstood many attacks by past administrations to reform them, to privatize them, to reduce them.
And so, I think people also need to remember that there used to be free public college in the United States in California prior to the election of Governor Ronald Reagan. And then he essentially made that a signature issue in his campaign and really began the end to free public college in California, which has sort of been reduced ever since. And there also used to be free public college in the state of New York, in the CUNY system. And so this isn’t a new concept for us in the United States, but it’s treated as if it’s something strange and something we should be skeptical of.
You know, the mayor of South Bend has always used this as an attempt to wedge people and say, “Oh, well, we don’t want to give this benefit to millionaires and billionaires.” Millionaires and billionaires, first of all, send their children to public colleges at a much lower rate than the rest of the population. You know, as someone who is — you know, I’m queer, and I know that there are a lot of people who sometimes are disowned by their families. And I’m a little disappointed, frankly, to see, you know, the first openly gay major Democratic primary candidate sort of ignore that simple fact that sometimes LGBTQ folks are disowned from their families. And so, if you have a millionaire or billionaire who disowns their LGBTQ child, you know, they won’t be able to access public college.
But I think the most important point here is that we need to build programs that can resist any attacks on them, wherever they come from. One of the things that we saw, you know, we’ve seen historically — there was a 2018 study that sociologists put out that said that if white Americans see that a benefits program is going to benefit black Americans, they are less likely to approve of it and to be in favor of it. And one of the ways that you can tackle that kind of sort of racism, really, is with universal programs, where everyone benefits and you don’t have either racial resentment or class resentment. Now, I should mention that usually those perceptions by white Americans are completely false. There’s lots of data and lots of studies that show that white Americans think that black Americans and brown Americans benefit from programs like SNAP and TANF at rates that are far lower than they do. White Americans often make up the majority of those programs.
But this is a real decision point, I think, for the Democratic Party. And I think going the route of universal benefits is really the way to go. Amy, you also mentioned Warren’s plan yesterday.
AMY GOODMAN: We have 10 seconds.
ALEXIS GOLDSTEIN: Oh, about the student debt cancellation plan. That’s something that would benefit the entire economy for all. If we cancel student debt, that’s going to benefit everyone. And that’s a real strong reason, in my opinion, to do it. There’s a study that says $108 billion a year, over 10 years, boost to the economy if we cancel student debt on a wide scale.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to have to leave it there. We want to thank you Alexis Goldstein, who writes for Truthout. Thank you so much to the Native American journalist Julian Brave NoiseCat, to Larry Hamm, who’s head of the Bernie Sanders 2020 committee in New Jersey, has just announced he’s running for Senate against Cory Booker. Julio Ricardo Varela of Latino Rebels, thanks for joining us from Boston. And, Phyllis Bennis, thanks so much for joining us, as well, from the Institute for Policy Studies. That does it for our broadcast. I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan González. Thanks for joining us.


democracynow--2020-01-15--A Modest Improvement or a Deal to Be Rejected? Warren & Sanders Debate New NAFTA Rewrite

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
, democracynow.org , The War and Peace Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman , with Juan González .
The music , “ Space Oddity ” by The Bayfield Sessions , as we continue to bring you this roundtable discussion on the last Democratic primary debate before the Iowa caucus in less than three weeks .
Juan ?
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : Well , let ’ s go to moderator Brianne Pfannenstiel of The Des Moines Register with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ SEN. BERNIE SANDERS : The answer is we could do much better than a Trump-led trade deal .
This deal — and I think the proponents of it acknowledge — will result in the continuation of the loss of hundreds of thousands of good-paying jobs as a result of outsourcing .
The heart and soul of our disastrous trade agreements — and I ’ m the guy who voted against NAFTA and against permanent normal trade relations with China — is that we have forced American workers to compete against people in Mexico @ @ @ @ @ @ @ earn starvation wages , $ 1 or $ 2 an hour .
Second of all , every major environmental organization has said no to this new trade agreement , because it does not even have the phrase “ climate change ” in it .
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN : I do .
I wasn ’ t here .
I haven ’ t been in Congress long enough to have voted against NAFTA .
But I led the fight against the trade deal with Asia and the trade deal with Europe , because I didn @ @ @ @ @ @ @ interests of the American people , the American workers or environmental interests .
But we have farmers here in Iowa who are hurting .
And they are hurting because of Donald Trump ’ s initiated trade wars .
We have workers who are hurting , because the agreements that have already been cut really don ’ t have enforcement on workers ’ rights .
This new trade deal is a modest improvement .
Senator Sanders himself has said so .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : Julian Brave NoiseCat , a journalist with Data for Progress @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was one of the clear policy differences from last night ’ s debate between Sanders and Warren ?
JULIAN BRAVE NOISECAT : I think that this is a very concerning issue for Democrats right now .
Look , the president is , according to the economic indicators , going to head into the general election with a humming economy .
He ’ s going to be able to say to the public that he got the USMCA trade agreement done .
This week , it looks like he ’ s going to be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ agreement with China done .
And whether those actually make any kind of material difference for people ’ s lives , you know , that narrative will be a powerful one for him .
And the reason this is going to be such an issue for Democrats is not actually the fault of anyone on the campaign trail ; it ’ s leadership in the House .
The USMCA , there was an opportunity for House Democrats — of course , Democrats control the House of Representatives right now — to negotiate harder @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the USMCA .
But instead of doing that , they allowed this trade agreement to move forward without any significant inclusion of climate targets , which set up this circumstance where you have farmers and workers on one side and environmentalists on the other .
I mean , welcome to Democratic politics .
How often does this happen ?
And that forced this into the campaign cycle , into the primary for Democrats , and it has created it into a wedge issue .
And I don ’ t think that we really @ @ @ @ @ @ @ now .
Obviously , we should be addressing climate change through things like trade agreements , but we should also , as a party , not be setting our leaders up for a tough , tough race on the campaign trail .
And that ’ s what House Democrats have done with this issue .
AMY GOODMAN : And that ’ s why Bernie Sanders says , unlike the other candidates , he is not going to be signing off on or voting for the trade agreement .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan González. The music, “Space Oddity” by The Bayfield Sessions, as we continue to bring you this roundtable discussion on the last Democratic primary debate before the Iowa caucus in less than three weeks. Juan?
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, let’s go to moderator Brianne Pfannenstiel of The Des Moines Register with a question on the U.S.-Mexico-Canada Agreement.
BRIANNE PFANNENSTIEL: Senator Sanders, you have said that new deal, the USMCA, quote, “makes some modest improvements.” Yet you’re going to vote against it. Aren’t modest improvements better than no improvements —
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS: No. We could do much —
BRIANNE PFANNENSTIEL: — for the farmers and manufacturers who have been devastated here in Iowa?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS: The answer is we could do much better than a Trump-led trade deal. This deal — and I think the proponents of it acknowledge — will result in the continuation of the loss of hundreds of thousands of good-paying jobs as a result of outsourcing. The heart and soul of our disastrous trade agreements — and I’m the guy who voted against NAFTA and against permanent normal trade relations with China — is that we have forced American workers to compete against people in Mexico, in China, elsewhere, who earn starvation wages, $1 or $2 an hour. Second of all, every major environmental organization has said no to this new trade agreement, because it does not even have the phrase “climate change” in it.
BRIANNE PFANNENSTIEL: Senator Warren, you support the USMCA. Why is Senator Sanders wrong?
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN: I do. I wasn’t here. I haven’t been in Congress long enough to have voted against NAFTA. But I led the fight against the trade deal with Asia and the trade deal with Europe, because I didn’t think it was in the interests of the American people, the American workers or environmental interests. But we have farmers here in Iowa who are hurting. And they are hurting because of Donald Trump’s initiated trade wars. We have workers who are hurting, because the agreements that have already been cut really don’t have enforcement on workers’ rights. This new trade deal is a modest improvement. Senator Sanders himself has said so.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Julian Brave NoiseCat, a journalist with Data for Progress, your take on this, which was one of the clear policy differences from last night’s debate between Sanders and Warren?
JULIAN BRAVE NOISECAT: I think that this is a very concerning issue for Democrats right now. Look, the president is, according to the economic indicators, going to head into the general election with a humming economy. He’s going to be able to say to the public that he got the USMCA trade agreement done. This week, it looks like he’s going to be able to say that he got an agreement with China done. And whether those actually make any kind of material difference for people’s lives, you know, that narrative will be a powerful one for him.
And the reason this is going to be such an issue for Democrats is not actually the fault of anyone on the campaign trail; it’s leadership in the House. The USMCA, there was an opportunity for House Democrats — of course, Democrats control the House of Representatives right now — to negotiate harder to include climate and environmental goals in the USMCA. But instead of doing that, they allowed this trade agreement to move forward without any significant inclusion of climate targets, which set up this circumstance where you have farmers and workers on one side and environmentalists on the other. I mean, welcome to Democratic politics. How often does this happen? And that forced this into the campaign cycle, into the primary for Democrats, and it has created it into a wedge issue. And I don’t think that we really have a great message on it right now. Obviously, we should be addressing climate change through things like trade agreements, but we should also, as a party, not be setting our leaders up for a tough, tough race on the campaign trail. And that’s what House Democrats have done with this issue.
AMY GOODMAN: And that’s why Bernie Sanders says, unlike the other candidates, he is not going to be signing off on or voting for the trade agreement.


democracynow--2020-01-15--In First All-White Democratic Debate, CNN Didn't Ask a Single Question About Immigration

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : Let me ask you about the backdrop of this debate coming as , speaking about costs , you have the latest news about the wall , the Trump administration planning to divert an additional $ 7.2 billion from the military budget for the construction of Trump ’ s promised border wall , bringing the total amount allocated to wall construction to over $ 18 billion .
Julio ?
JULIO RICARDO VARELA : I mean , you know , we all said it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ went down that escalator in 2016 and he said what he said , those anti-Mexican comments that really like just struck at the Latinx community in this country , we all knew that this campaign was based on fear and on this — you know , this misperception of the other invading this country .
This whole wall talk , in the end , is just a diversion .
It has created sort of a split in this country .
It is based on lies and misinformation .
And anyone who thinks that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , the statistics aren ’ t there .
This is not the way you approach it .
But that is what the American people are led to believe .
And I just find it to be insulting to — what he has done over the last couple years .
And the only way you fight against this is that you challenge that propaganda , because that is what it ’ s becoming .
It has become propaganda .
And political journalists need to do a better job in challenging what the president says @ @ @ @ @ @ @ cycle will begin to look into this and we become journalists that say , “ You know what ?
This is what authoritarianism looks like.
” And that , I mean , I don ’ t say those words lightly .
You know , I am a Latin American .
I am a Puerto Rican .
Let ’ s not get into the issue that no one even mentioned the earthquakes that are happening in Puerto Rico , even as a mention during climate change yesterday .
And we ’ re talking about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be a better way .
I think journalists have to look at this election in a much more critical light .
And that doesn ’ t make you less of an American .
That makes you an American journalist .
AMY GOODMAN : Well , Julio Ricardo Varela , we ’ re going to break and then come back to our discussion , co-host of In the Thick political podcast , founder of Latino Rebels .
We ’ ll be back in a moment .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: Let me ask you about the backdrop of this debate coming as, speaking about costs, you have the latest news about the wall, the Trump administration planning to divert an additional $7.2 billion from the military budget for the construction of Trump’s promised border wall, bringing the total amount allocated to wall construction to over $18 billion. Julio?
JULIO RICARDO VARELA: I mean, you know, we all said it. When he went — when Trump went down that escalator in 2016 and he said what he said, those anti-Mexican comments that really like just struck at the Latinx community in this country, we all knew that this campaign was based on fear and on this — you know, this misperception of the other invading this country.
This whole wall talk, in the end, is just a diversion. It has created sort of a split in this country. It is based on lies and misinformation. And anyone who thinks that a wall is going to protect us, the statistics aren’t there. This is not the way you approach it. But that is what the American people are led to believe. And I just find it to be insulting to — what he has done over the last couple years.
And the only way you fight against this is that you challenge that propaganda, because that is what it’s becoming. It has become propaganda. And political journalists need to do a better job in challenging what the president says. And I hope that this election cycle will begin to look into this and we become journalists that say, “You know what? This is what authoritarianism looks like.” And that, I mean, I don’t say those words lightly. You know, I am a Latin American. I am a Puerto Rican. Let’s not get into the issue that no one even mentioned the earthquakes that are happening in Puerto Rico, even as a mention during climate change yesterday. And we’re talking about Democrats. So, there has to be a better way. I think journalists have to look at this election in a much more critical light. And that doesn’t make you less of an American. That makes you an American journalist.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, Julio Ricardo Varela, we’re going to break and then come back to our discussion, co-host of In the Thick political podcast, founder of Latino Rebels. We’ll be back in a moment.


democracynow--2020-01-15--Sanders and Warren Openly Spar as Some Progressives Fear Fighting Could Help Centrist Democrats

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
, democracynow.org , The War and Peace Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman , with Juan González , as we bring you a roundtable on the last Democratic primary debate before the first caucus , Iowa , in less than three weeks .
Larry Hamm is with us , chair of the New Jersey for Bernie 2020 committee .
He ’ s chairman of the People ’ s Organization for Progress and has just recently announced @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for his New Jersey Senate seat .
Welcome to Democracy Now !
, Larry Hamm .
LARRY HAMM : It ’ s good to be here .
AMY GOODMAN : Overall , the picture of last night ’ s debate , there were fewer people , and the complexion was much lighter .
LARRY HAMM : Well , yes .
It ’ s stating the obvious .
There were no people of color there .
But that doesn ’ t mean there wasn ’ t diversity .
There was ideological diversity .
And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ at this point that Bernie Sanders is still pushing the hardest for a program and agenda that addresses people ’ s needs , over and over again .
He hit the issue of Medicare for All .
He hit the issue of a Green New Deal .
He hit the issue of ending these wars in Afghanistan , Iraq , not going to war with Iran , and using that money for people ’ s needs here at home — housing , education , jobs .
Those are the things , I think @ @ @ @ @ @ @ AMY GOODMAN : Let ’ s go to another clip of the debate .
This is moderator Abby Phillip of CNN asking Senators Sanders and Warren about the controversy around whether a woman can be president .
AMY GOODMAN : So , that was Senators Warren and Sanders .
In addition to Larry Hamm , we ’ re joined by Alexis Goldstein , activist and contributor to Truthout.org .
She worked for seven years on Wall Street at Morgan Stanley , Merrill Lynch and Deutsche Bank .
She has signed onto an open @ @ @ @ @ @ @ people supporting Elizabeth Warren .
If you can comment on this latest controversy and what happened after the debate , but the significance of what was said there , quite stunning when CNN ’ s Abby Phillip , after Sanders said what he had to say , refuted what he said , and said her , “ What do you say about him saying that a woman can ’ t win ?
” ALEXIS GOLDSTEIN : Well , I think this is much ado about nothing .
I do think the media has @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I don ’ t think either Sanders or Warren is interested in perpetuating .
I mean , Warren herself said , “ I ’ m not here to fight with Bernie.
” And that ’ s largely my reaction to this , in my opinion , very outsize controversy .
LARRY HAMM : Yes , I think Senator Sanders explained himself well .
I believe what Senator Sanders said .
And I think — I agree that I think the media wants to make a bigger issue out of this than it is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ see the progressive camp divided .
And I don ’ t think we ’ re going to let that happen .
I think if we stick to the issues — Medicare for All , Green New Deal , doubling the minimum wage , defeating Trump — I think that ’ s the path forward .
AMY GOODMAN : Well , let ’ s go back to Bernie Sanders in 1988 .
He referenced this YouTube video .
This is Bernie Sanders in 1988 .
AMY GOODMAN : So that was Bernie Sanders back @ @ @ @ @ @ @ HAMM : Well , Bernie is consistent .
I mean , his positions have been consistent over the last 40 years , maybe even half-century , on some of the issues .
And that ’ s why I think he ’ s the strongest candidate .
He ’ s leading in Iowa right now .
And quite frankly , I don ’ t think the debate is going to move the needle that much .
I think Bernie Sanders is leading going in , and I think he ’ s going to get @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Iowa caucus .
AMY GOODMAN : Julian Brave NoiseCat , you ’ re a journalist who belongs to the Secwepemc Nation .
Actually , you should say it for me , so that it isn ’ t mispronounced .
Vice president of policy and strategy at the think tank Data for Progress .
What nations are you a member of ?
JULIAN BRAVE NOISECAT : The Secwepemc and St ’ at ’ imc .
Thank you so much for having me , Amy .
You ’ ve actually had the late Art Manuel @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on your show before .
AMY GOODMAN : So , you wrote a whole piece on this , but you come up with the same recommendation .
Talk about the debate between them , but also what you want to see moving forward .
JULIAN BRAVE NOISECAT : Look , I feel like we were watching the end of the Lord of the Rings trilogy , and , you know , Frodo and Samwise are approaching Mount Doom , and instead of like finishing the darn mission , they ’ re fighting each @ @ @ @ @ @ @ at the end of the day , we need to defeat Sauron .
You know , Sauron is right here in Washington , D.C. , controlling the White House .
So , I would tend to agree that the infighting in the progressive movement is not helpful right now .
It leaves out the bigger picture in the primary of we still have a weak front-runner in Biden , yet when the progressives are taking swipes at each other and not at him , they ’ re only sort of cementing his position @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And , you know , there are some real considerations , I think , moving forward , once we start getting ballots about how sort of the left flank of the Democratic Party should be positioning itself .
If you are a voter and you are not in one of the first three states , you know , I think that there ’ s still an open question as to whether you will be casting your vote for Senator Sanders or Senator Warren .
And there ’ s also talk on the fringes @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , of course , choose our Democratic nominee not actually literally through our votes , but through delegates .
And there is potential , a very outside potential , that progressives , if we pool our delegates or if we stick in the race longer , could use our leverage to either contest a convention or to use that sort of threat of disunity at a convention , which of course party leadership wants to avoid at all costs , to influence the ultimate ticket and party platform on issues that we care @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are Medicare for All , a Green New Deal , free college , doubling the minimum wage , all of these things .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : I wanted to ask Larry Hamm , in terms of the progressive vote .
Much has been made of the fact that Joe Biden still , according to all of the polls , has the far greater support in the African-American community than any of the other candidates , and even than Kamala Harris and Cory Booker when they were in the race .
This whole issue @ @ @ @ @ @ @ progressive community ” is going in a different direction from the mass of African-American voters , I ’ m wondering your take on that and how that you see that shifting in the coming months .
LARRY HAMM : I think it is going to shift .
First of all , I think Bernie Sanders has support in the African-American community , and he has more support than people would give him credit for .
Polls show that he has support particularly among African Americans 35 years old and younger .
I think @ @ @ @ @ @ @ primary season , as the field narrows , that more and more African Americans are going to see that Bernie Sanders is the candidate that best represents their interests .
AMY GOODMAN : You decided to run against Senator Booker .
Booker has just pulled out of the race .
I don ’ t know if it has anything to do with you announcing , right before he pulled out , that you ’ re going to be challenging him .
LARRY HAMM : I was surprised that Senator Booker pulled out before @ @ @ @ @ @ @ He had been saying that his strategy was similar to that of Barack Obama and that Obama was in a similar position vis-à-vis the polls in 2008 as he was , but that after Iowa the Obama campaign took off .
So , when Senator Booker announced the other day that he was pulling out , I was quite surprised .
I thought he was going to go through to Iowa .
But the fact is , he withdrew because his campaign was not getting traction .
He just could not break through @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , and even some places lower than that .
I ’ m running for U.S. Senate because I think we ’ re going to need more senators in the Senate that support our progressive political agenda .
When Bernie Sanders wins the Democratic primary , when he wins the nomination and when he gets to the White House , he ’ s going to need people in the Senate that are going to fight as hard for his agenda as he is .
And I want to be one of those senators .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ s turn to healthcare .
This is Pete Buttigieg defending his healthcare plan at last nights ’ s debate .
JUAN GONZÁLEZ : Well , I ’ d also like to bring into our roundtable discussion Julio Ricardo Varela , the co-host of the In the Thick political podcast and founder of Latino Rebels .
Welcome to the show , Julio .
Could you talk first about this healthcare exchange that we just played and also your take on what you thought were either the highlights or what was missing in last night @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : Yeah , absolutely .
First of all , the biggest takeaway from this healthcare debate , even though it ’ s been repeated so many times , is the fact that during the war talk no one was talking about costs .
Like , how are you going to pay for this war , and how are you going to pay for anything that ’ s going to happen in Iran ?
But when we got to healthcare , the questions were framed about like , “ Well , what are we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ going to pay for all this ?
” And I think that is just such a disservice to the American people and the American electorate , because , in the end , let ’ s be real .
I mean , if there ’ s anything that has a lot of universality or commonality about what is happening in the United States , it ’ s the cost of healthcare .
I mean , I have a daughter who has a pre-existing condition , and it ’ s our biggest expense in my @ @ @ @ @ @ @ privileged background in Massachusetts .
So I think the framing of the healthcare debate , we get it , right ?
It ’ s been repeated .
CNN , let ’ s stop asking these questions , because we understand what ’ s happening .
You have Sanders and Warren , on the progressive side , saying , “ We ’ ve got to go Medicare for All .
We have to look at this a little bit more holistically .
Healthcare is a human right for Americans.
” And then you have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ insurance , who are trying — you know , the Bidens , the Klobuchars and the Buttigieges of the world , who are trying to kind of give you a little hybrid .
I still don ’ t know what Joe Biden ’ s healthcare policy is .
At least I will give Buttigieg credit that he ’ s trying , playing off the Medicare for those who need it or those who want it .
So I think that ’ s a big problem .
And , you know , talking to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ ve already had this .
This was like a repeat debate .
And I just think CNN failed on this part , especially when it came to the contrast between the war talk , that literally dominated the first half-hour of the debate , and the healthcare talk .
Now , in things that were — AMY GOODMAN : And just one point , Julio , on that issue of cost of war , though they didn ’ t talk about it , the Cost of War Project just estimated that the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Iraq has been — I think the number was something like $ 6.4 trillion .
JULIO RICARDO VARELA : Wow .
Wow .
And I think that ’ s the problem .
I think this whole notion — you know , I tweeted it out last night .
It ’ s like no one ’ s talking about paying for war .
No one ’ s talking — I mean , I will say this .
Sanders did say this costs us trillions and trillions of dollars .
I sit back as an @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was diverted to the American people — and , you know , we have wars based on lies , and we ’ re looking at another lie right now .
The president of the United States is lying about the justification of war with Iran .
I mean , anyone who has looked at this story for the last two weeks would know that .
Can you just imagine what this American society would be if healthcare was a human right , if healthcare was something that we believed in and said this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ lost , because it ’ s become sort of this topic that you see progressives and moderates like fighting against each other , when we all know , in fact , when any Democratic candidate fights against Donald Trump on this issue , the Democrats are going to win this issue .
And if they ’ re going to win this election , they should be saying that point every day , about , you know , Trump is going to attack Obamacare , Republicans are going after your healthcare , and that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s a pocketbook issue for the American citizens .
And not only is it a pocketbook issue , but it ’ s also , you know , people want — you know , it ’ s healthcare .
It ’ s a human right .
But the other takeaway , I would say , in general , and I do believe — I agree with all our panelists that the issue of the Sanders-Warren debate about a woman president is a nonissue .
I find it very convenient that CNN , the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a private meeting that reportedly was just Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren , and all of a sudden this was the story on Monday .
And guess what .
What question did we hear on Tuesday , and what is everyone talking about in this debate now ?
I think both the candidates gave very good answers .
I agree that , you know , this seems to be like progressives going after each other .
And let ’ s be real .
Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders are still front-runners in this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ t know what to do with it .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan González, as we bring you a roundtable on the last Democratic primary debate before the first caucus, Iowa, in less than three weeks. Larry Hamm is with us, chair of the New Jersey for Bernie 2020 committee. He’s chairman of the People’s Organization for Progress and has just recently announced he is running against Senator Cory Booker for his New Jersey Senate seat.
Welcome to Democracy Now!, Larry Hamm.
LARRY HAMM: It’s good to be here.
AMY GOODMAN: Overall, the picture of last night’s debate, there were fewer people, and the complexion was much lighter.
LARRY HAMM: Well, yes. It’s stating the obvious. There were no people of color there. But that doesn’t mean there wasn’t diversity. There was ideological diversity. And I think it’s very clear at this point that Bernie Sanders is still pushing the hardest for a program and agenda that addresses people’s needs, over and over again. He hit the issue of Medicare for All. He hit the issue of a Green New Deal. He hit the issue of ending these wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, not going to war with Iran, and using that money for people’s needs here at home — housing, education, jobs. Those are the things, I think, that people are talking about.
AMY GOODMAN: Let’s go to another clip of the debate. This is moderator Abby Phillip of CNN asking Senators Sanders and Warren about the controversy around whether a woman can be president.
ABBY PHILLIP: Senator Sanders, CNN reported yesterday that — and Senator Sanders — Senator Warren confirmed in a statement, that in 2018 you told her that you did not believe that a woman could win the election. Why did you say that?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS: Well, as a matter of fact, I didn’t say it. And I don’t want to waste a whole lot of time on this, because this is what Donald Trump and maybe some of the media want.
Anybody knows me, knows that it’s incomprehensible that I would think that a woman could not be president of the United States. Go to YouTube today. There’s a video of me 30 years ago talking about how a woman could become president of the United States. In 2015, I deferred, in fact, to Senator Warren. There was a movement to draft Senator Warren to run for president. And you know what? I stayed back. Senator Warren decided not to run, and I did. I did run afterwards. Hillary Clinton won the popular vote by 3 million votes. How could anybody in a million years not believe that a woman could become president of the United States?
And let me be very clear: If any of the women on this stage or any of the men on this stage win the nomination — I hope that’s not the case, I hope it’s me — but if they do, I will do everything in my power to make sure that they are elected, in order to defeat the most dangerous president in the history of our country.
ABBY PHILLIP: So, Senator Sanders, Senator Sanders, I do want to be clear here. You’re saying that you never told Senator Warren that a woman could not win the election?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS: That is correct.
ABBY PHILLIP: Senator Warren, what did you think when Senator Sanders told you a woman could not win the election?
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN: I disagreed. Bernie is my friend, and I am not here to try to fight with Bernie. But, look, this question about whether or not a woman can be president has been raised, and it’s time for us to attack it head-on. And I think the best way to talk about who can win is by looking at people’s winning record. So, can a woman beat Donald Trump? Look at the men on this stage. Collectively, they have lost 10 elections. The only people on this stage who have won every single election that they’ve been in are the women: Amy and me.
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR: So true.
AMY GOODMAN: So, that was Senators Warren and Sanders. In addition to Larry Hamm, we’re joined by Alexis Goldstein, activist and contributor to Truthout.org. She worked for seven years on Wall Street at Morgan Stanley, Merrill Lynch and Deutsche Bank. She has signed onto an open letter by prominent LGBTQ women and non-binary people supporting Elizabeth Warren.
If you can comment on this latest controversy and what happened after the debate, but the significance of what was said there, quite stunning when CNN’s Abby Phillip, after Sanders said what he had to say, refuted what he said, and said her, “What do you say about him saying that a woman can’t win?”
ALEXIS GOLDSTEIN: Well, I think this is much ado about nothing. I do think the media has latched onto this in a way that I don’t think either Sanders or Warren is interested in perpetuating. I mean, Warren herself said, “I’m not here to fight with Bernie.” And that’s largely my reaction to this, in my opinion, very outsize controversy.
AMY GOODMAN: And Larry Hamm?
LARRY HAMM: Yes, I think Senator Sanders explained himself well. I believe what Senator Sanders said. And I think — I agree that I think the media wants to make a bigger issue out of this than it is. I think they would like to see the progressive camp divided. And I don’t think we’re going to let that happen. I think if we stick to the issues — Medicare for All, Green New Deal, doubling the minimum wage, defeating Trump — I think that’s the path forward.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, let’s go back to Bernie Sanders in 1988. He referenced this YouTube video. This is Bernie Sanders in 1988.
MAYOR BERNIE SANDERS: The real issue is not whether you’re black or white, whether you’re a woman or a man. In my view, a woman could be elected president of the United States. The real issue is: Whose side are you on? Are you on the side of workers and poor people, or are you on the side of big money and the corporations?
AMY GOODMAN: So that was Bernie Sanders back in 1988. Larry Hamm?
LARRY HAMM: Well, Bernie is consistent. I mean, his positions have been consistent over the last 40 years, maybe even half-century, on some of the issues. And that’s why I think he’s the strongest candidate. He’s leading in Iowa right now. And quite frankly, I don’t think the debate is going to move the needle that much. I think Bernie Sanders is leading going in, and I think he’s going to get stronger as we get closer to the Iowa caucus.
AMY GOODMAN: Julian Brave NoiseCat, you’re a journalist who belongs to the Secwepemc Nation. Actually, you should say it for me, so that it isn’t mispronounced. Vice president of policy and strategy at the think tank Data for Progress. What nations are you a member of?
JULIAN BRAVE NOISECAT: The Secwepemc and St’at’imc. Thank you so much for having me, Amy. You’ve actually had the late Art Manuel, who was also a Secwepemc, on your show before.
AMY GOODMAN: So, you wrote a whole piece on this, but you come up with the same recommendation. Talk about the debate between them, but also what you want to see moving forward.
JULIAN BRAVE NOISECAT: Look, I feel like we were watching the end of the Lord of the Rings trilogy, and, you know, Frodo and Samwise are approaching Mount Doom, and instead of like finishing the darn mission, they’re fighting each other, when, you know, at the end of the day, we need to defeat Sauron. You know, Sauron is right here in Washington, D.C., controlling the White House.
So, I would tend to agree that the infighting in the progressive movement is not helpful right now. It leaves out the bigger picture in the primary of we still have a weak front-runner in Biden, yet when the progressives are taking swipes at each other and not at him, they’re only sort of cementing his position at the front of the pack.
And, you know, there are some real considerations, I think, moving forward, once we start getting ballots about how sort of the left flank of the Democratic Party should be positioning itself. If you are a voter and you are not in one of the first three states, you know, I think that there’s still an open question as to whether you will be casting your vote for Senator Sanders or Senator Warren.
And there’s also talk on the fringes of a potential contested convention. We, of course, choose our Democratic nominee not actually literally through our votes, but through delegates. And there is potential, a very outside potential, that progressives, if we pool our delegates or if we stick in the race longer, could use our leverage to either contest a convention or to use that sort of threat of disunity at a convention, which of course party leadership wants to avoid at all costs, to influence the ultimate ticket and party platform on issues that we care about, which, of course, are Medicare for All, a Green New Deal, free college, doubling the minimum wage, all of these things.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: I wanted to ask Larry Hamm, in terms of the progressive vote. Much has been made of the fact that Joe Biden still, according to all of the polls, has the far greater support in the African-American community than any of the other candidates, and even than Kamala Harris and Cory Booker when they were in the race. This whole issue of whether the, quote, “progressive community” is going in a different direction from the mass of African-American voters, I’m wondering your take on that and how that you see that shifting in the coming months.
LARRY HAMM: I think it is going to shift. First of all, I think Bernie Sanders has support in the African-American community, and he has more support than people would give him credit for. Polls show that he has support particularly among African Americans 35 years old and younger. I think, as we actually move into the primary season, as the field narrows, that more and more African Americans are going to see that Bernie Sanders is the candidate that best represents their interests.
AMY GOODMAN: You decided to run against Senator Booker. Booker has just pulled out of the race. I don’t know if it has anything to do with you announcing, right before he pulled out, that you’re going to be challenging him.
LARRY HAMM: I was surprised that Senator Booker pulled out before, actually, the Iowa caucus. He had been saying that his strategy was similar to that of Barack Obama and that Obama was in a similar position vis-à-vis the polls in 2008 as he was, but that after Iowa the Obama campaign took off. So, when Senator Booker announced the other day that he was pulling out, I was quite surprised. I thought he was going to go through to Iowa. But the fact is, he withdrew because his campaign was not getting traction. He just could not break through 4%, 3, 4%, and even some places lower than that.
I’m running for U.S. Senate because I think we’re going to need more senators in the Senate that support our progressive political agenda. When Bernie Sanders wins the Democratic primary, when he wins the nomination and when he gets to the White House, he’s going to need people in the Senate that are going to fight as hard for his agenda as he is. And I want to be one of those senators.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, let’s turn to healthcare. This is Pete Buttigieg defending his healthcare plan at last nights’s debate.
PETE BUTTIGIEG: When it comes to healthcare, you can do it in two moves. Of course, my plan costs $1.5 trillion over a decade — no small sum, but not the 20, 30, 40 that we’re hearing about from the others. All you’ve got to do is two things, both of them are commonsense: allow Medicare to negotiate prescription drug prices, and roll back the Trump corporate tax cuts that went to corporations and the wealthy that didn’t even need it.
ABBY PHILLIP: Senator Warren?
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN: So, I started this by talking about 36 million Americans, including Americans with insurance who just can’t even afford to have a prescription filled. We all talk about plans, healthcare plans that we have, and these plans are paid for. The problem is that plans like the mayor’s and like the vice president’s is that they are an improvement, they are an improvement over where we are right now, but they’re a small improvement. And that’s why it is that they cost so much less, because, by themselves, they’re not going to be enough to cover prescriptions for 36 million people who can’t afford to get them filled.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, I’d also like to bring into our roundtable discussion Julio Ricardo Varela, the co-host of the In the Thick political podcast and founder of Latino Rebels. Welcome to the show, Julio. Could you talk first about this healthcare exchange that we just played and also your take on what you thought were either the highlights or what was missing in last night’s debate?
JULIO RICARDO VARELA: Yeah, absolutely. First of all, the biggest takeaway from this healthcare debate, even though it’s been repeated so many times, is the fact that during the war talk no one was talking about costs. Like, how are you going to pay for this war, and how are you going to pay for anything that’s going to happen in Iran? But when we got to healthcare, the questions were framed about like, “Well, what are we going to do? How are we going to pay for all this?” And I think that is just such a disservice to the American people and the American electorate, because, in the end, let’s be real. I mean, if there’s anything that has a lot of universality or commonality about what is happening in the United States, it’s the cost of healthcare. I mean, I have a daughter who has a pre-existing condition, and it’s our biggest expense in my family. And I come from a privileged background in Massachusetts.
So I think the framing of the healthcare debate, we get it, right? It’s been repeated. CNN, let’s stop asking these questions, because we understand what’s happening. You have Sanders and Warren, on the progressive side, saying, “We’ve got to go Medicare for All. We have to look at this a little bit more holistically. Healthcare is a human right for Americans.” And then you have sort of the defenders of private health insurance, who are trying — you know, the Bidens, the Klobuchars and the Buttigieges of the world, who are trying to kind of give you a little hybrid. I still don’t know what Joe Biden’s healthcare policy is. At least I will give Buttigieg credit that he’s trying, playing off the Medicare for those who need it or those who want it. So I think that’s a big problem. And, you know, talking to people in the healthcare debate, we’ve already had this. This was like a repeat debate. And I just think CNN failed on this part, especially when it came to the contrast between the war talk, that literally dominated the first half-hour of the debate, and the healthcare talk. Now, in things that were —
AMY GOODMAN: And just one point, Julio, on that issue of cost of war, though they didn’t talk about it, the Cost of War Project just estimated that the cost of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq has been — I think the number was something like $6.4 trillion.
JULIO RICARDO VARELA: Wow. Wow. And I think that’s the problem. I think this whole notion — you know, I tweeted it out last night. It’s like no one’s talking about paying for war. No one’s talking — I mean, I will say this. Sanders did say this costs us trillions and trillions of dollars. I sit back as an American journalist saying, if this money was diverted to the American people — and, you know, we have wars based on lies, and we’re looking at another lie right now. The president of the United States is lying about the justification of war with Iran. I mean, anyone who has looked at this story for the last two weeks would know that. Can you just imagine what this American society would be if healthcare was a human right, if healthcare was something that we believed in and said this is what matters?
And it gets lost, because it’s become sort of this topic that you see progressives and moderates like fighting against each other, when we all know, in fact, when any Democratic candidate fights against Donald Trump on this issue, the Democrats are going to win this issue. And if they’re going to win this election, they should be saying that point every day, about, you know, Trump is going to attack Obamacare, Republicans are going after your healthcare, and that matters. And it matters because it’s a pocketbook issue for the American citizens. And not only is it a pocketbook issue, but it’s also, you know, people want — you know, it’s healthcare. It’s a human right.
But the other takeaway, I would say, in general, and I do believe — I agree with all our panelists that the issue of the Sanders-Warren debate about a woman president is a nonissue. I find it very convenient that CNN, the day before, reported this story, a private meeting that reportedly was just Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, and all of a sudden this was the story on Monday. And guess what. What question did we hear on Tuesday, and what is everyone talking about in this debate now? I think both the candidates gave very good answers. I agree that, you know, this seems to be like progressives going after each other. And let’s be real. Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders are still front-runners in this race, and moderate Democrats still don’t know what to do with it.