democracynow--2020-09-14--Pandemic, Wildfires & Heat Wave: Undocumented Farmworkers Face "Triple Threat" as West Coast Burns

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : California , Oregon and Washington continue to face a climate apocalypse as devastating fires burn across the West Coast .
At least 35 people have died , but the death toll is expected to be far higher .
Oregon says it ’ s bracing for a , quote , “ mass fatality event.
” Entire towns have been destroyed .
Nearly 5 million acres have already burned .
Parts of the West Coast now have some of the worst air quality in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ California today but refuses to link the fires to the climate crisis .
California Governor Gavin Newsom says there ’ s no question about the climate crisis .
AMY GOODMAN : Some of the most vulnerable people on the West Coast have been farmworkers , many of whom are undocumented .
First came the pandemic , now the climate-fueled fires .
Despite the risks , many feel they have to keep working , even if that means working inside evacuation zones .
Authorities in California have repeatedly allowed growers to continue harvesting despite @ @ @ @ @ @ @ risk .
The Intercept reports agricultural commissioners in California ’ s wine regions have worked closely with the Sonoma County Farm Bureau and Sonoma County Winegrowers to repeatedly grant permission to grape growers to harvest in wildfire evacuation zones .
The issue is not new .
In 2017 , the Sonoma County Agricultural Commission issued evacuation zone entry permits to 280 groups of people to conduct , quote , “ critical functions.
” The Intercept reports such critical functions included , quote , “ harvesting , feeding and watering livestock , managing fermentations @ @ @ @ @ @ @ unquote .
Farmworkers have also been disproportionately hit by the pandemic .
Gervacio Peña López is a former farmworker who now serves as the executive director of the Cultural Movement of Indigenous Alliance .
AMY GOODMAN : We ’ ll hear more from Gervacio Peña López .
But first we ’ re joined by Estella Cisneros , the agriculture worker program legal director at California Rural [ Legal ] Assistance .
She joins us from Fresno , California .
Estella , welcome to Democracy Now !
It ’ s great to have you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ dire circumstances .
Can you explain what farmworkers are facing right now ?
So many in California who are not being forced to evacuate are staying in their homes , if at all possible , because the horrendous air quality conditions from the fires , this on top of COVID-19 .
But what about the farmworkers ?
ESTELLA CISNEROS : Thank you , Amy .
Such a pleasure to be here .
Right now farmworkers are facing a triple threat .
They are facing the dangers of COVID-19 , wildfire smoke , as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Farmworkers , as many already know , are essential workers .
They have continued working throughout this entire pandemic .
Agricultural workers include those who work in the fields , but also those who work in dairies , as well as meat processing and other food processing locations , as well as people who work in packing houses and nurseries .
Now , farmworkers have continued to work during this whole time despite fears of contracting COVID-19 in the workplace , despite fears of getting heat stress while they ’ re at work @ @ @ @ @ @ @ dangers that wildfire smoke brings .
Now , the reason wildfire smoke is so dangerous , not just for farmworkers , but anybody who inhales it , is because smoke tends to have particulate matter which is 2.5 [ micrometers ] or smaller .
Now , the inhalation of what ’ s called particulate matter 2.5 or smaller is very , very dangerous for one ’ s health .
It can lead to long-term both lung , heart and respiratory illnesses .
So , the fact that farmworkers are out there working in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ COVID-19 , as well as the dangers of heat stress and wildfire smoke , is a very , very dire situation right now in California .
AMY GOODMAN : I want to turn to go back to former farmworker Gervacio Peña López , now executive director of the Cultural Movement of Indigenous Alliance , describing to Democracy Now !
the dangerous working conditions that undocumented farmworkers face as they ’ re forced to work in the vineyards of Sonoma County amidst the wildfires .
AMY GOODMAN : So , Estella , if you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , are the owners of , for example , the vineyards — are they forcing workers to work ?
Do they lose their jobs if they don ’ t ?
And also , what kind of access do they have to masks ?
ESTELLA CISNEROS : So , unfortunately , there are a lot of farmworkers who face the very real risk of losing their jobs if they either speak up about unsafe working conditions or if they refuse to work , before being provided , in this case , an N-95 respirator @ @ @ @ @ @ @ cases of workers who have faced retaliation after they have spoken up in the workplace about their rights , and so there is a very , very real danger of losing your job if you speak up .
Now , there ’ s that aspect of things , but there ’ s also the unspoken aspect of working in a workplace where N-95 respirators are not provided to you .
Even if an employer doesn ’ t tell you , “ You will be fired if you stop working , ” what kind @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are not affirmatively following their duty in California , which is to address workplace health and safety hazards ?
What kind of message are employers sending it they are not proactively , as the law requires them to do , providing the training , as well as the equipment and the materials , the personal protective equipment that people need to access ?
Now , when it comes to whether farmworkers are having access to N-95 masks , unfortunately , the reports that we ’ re hearing out in the fields is that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ N-95 respirators , which is really the only thing that is going to keep them safe from particulate matter inhalation .
AMY GOODMAN : And I want to talk about the people that are coming out to the fields , even more so , and start with the former farmworker Gervacio Peña López .
This is what he said , when you were talking about the triple threat .
AMY GOODMAN : So , Estella Cisneros , can you talk about who are the farmworkers in the fields , and tell us further @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ESTELLA CISNEROS : Certainly .
So , farmworkers in the state of California , and certainly across the nation , tend to be immigrants .
They tend to be undocumented .
And they tend to speak a language other than English .
So , a lot of farmworkers have a very similar situation to what the gentleman was describing , in the sense that they were working in another industry , they ’ ve been displaced from that industry , and they ’ ve translated that skill set to working in the fields @ @ @ @ @ @ @ large number of farmworkers who are essentially lifelong agricultural workers , and so they have been working in the fields for many , many years .
And that ’ s certainly the population that is still active in the fields today .
AMY GOODMAN : How much do farmworkers get paid ?
And what about during this horrific period ?
ESTELLA CISNEROS : The state minimum wage in California , which is one of the highest , if not the highest , currently is $ 13 an hour , if you have 26 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s $ 12 an hour if you have 25 or fewer employees .
Now , eventually , that minimum wage is going to increase to $ 15 , but we ’ re still a couple of years off .
Farm work tends to be one of the lowest-paid industries in the United States .
And so , even when workers are paid by what ’ s called piece rate , which is when you ’ re paid by the bucket or the pound , something other than by the hour , farmworkers still @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , the fact that you ’ re paid by piece rate is actually a disincentive in terms of slowing down , in terms of taking health and safety breaks , because the more that you work , the more that you get paid .
And so , you either have workers who are being paid the minimum wage , which is not enough , nowhere near enough , or you have workers who are paid by piece rate , which actually is a disincentive , to continue to work more and work through @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that are more legally required , as well as work through the pandemic and wildfires and the heat .
AMY GOODMAN : And what kind of benefits do they get from the government , dealing with this period of the pandemic and the fires ?
ESTELLA CISNEROS : If a worker has legal status , which a lot of farmworkers don ’ t , they may have access to the state ’ s unemployment insurance program , as well as , you know , a variety of other public assistance programs .
However @ @ @ @ @ @ @ farmworker population is undocumented .
They really don ’ t have any other recourse in terms of income replacement .
They are really struggling right now , if they are displaced , either by the fires or by the wildfire smoke , because they don ’ t have access to the safety nets that citizens and residents of the United States do — AMY GOODMAN : And what kind of — ESTELLA CISNEROS : — including stimulus payments , as well as unemployment insurance payments .
AMY GOODMAN : And what kind of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in ?
Are people getting accurate information about what ’ s happening , from COVID to the climate catastrophe ?
ESTELLA CISNEROS : Unfortunately , we have heard reports of either employers or other individuals in the community giving incorrect information about COVID .
So that ’ s one issue .
We anticipate that there may — that that may also exist for information about heat stress , as well as the wildfire smoke .
I mean , even the information that ’ s provided by state and government and other governmental agencies @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Spanish .
Just this morning — or , last night , I should say , I looked on the CAL FIRE website , as well as the website for the Fresno County Sheriff ’ s Department , which are the two agencies that are giving information on the wildfires , as well as evacuation zones , as well as evacuation orders .
Neither of those are available in Spanish .
That ’ s one issue .
The other issue , of course , is that a lot of farmworkers don ’ t speak @ @ @ @ @ @ @ languages , such as Mixteco , Trique , Zapoteco .
And these communities are facing even a greater challenge to the very critical and necessary information that they need in order to keep themselves and their families safe .
AMY GOODMAN : Finally , Estella Cisneros , we quoted The Intercept at the top , which has an article saying “ In California ’ s Wine Country , Undocumented Grape Pickers Forced to Work in Fire Evacuation Zones , ” the article stating , quote , “ Officials that regulate evacuation order exemptions @ @ @ @ @ @ @ serve local business owners ’ interests.
” Your response , and what needs to be done ?
ESTELLA CISNEROS : So , while I don ’ t have personal information about the facts that are cited in that article , unfortunately , it has been a common occurrence in our experience that the safety of farmworkers is not prioritized and is actually sacrificed in the name of profit and business interests .
Certainly , the reasons that those permits were given — taking care of livestock , picking fruits and vegetables — to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ people may believe that that ’ s essential — right ?
— is very difficult to comprehend , when their literal health and safety , as well as that of their families , is being compromised .
The other part , of course , is that even in areas where you are not being evacuated , there is so much wildfire smoke in the air that you have two sets of workers that you ’ re worried about .
One are the workers who are working in evacuation zones , such as those @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you also have a significant number of farmworkers who continue to work despite the air quality index being at hazardous levels .
What we ’ re asking for is for , first of all , employers to follow the law — there is a wildfire smoke emergency regulation that is currently in effect in California that requires employers to provide workers with N-95 masks or mask respirators — as well as take other measures to ensure that if a worker must work outside and they are exposed to wildfire smoke , that they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ protect them from inhaling that harmful smoke , as well as the wide distribution of N-95 masks — we have yet to speak to a worker , actually , that has actually been provided one by their employer — as well as robust and widespread enforcement of current regulations .
AMY GOODMAN : Estella Cisneros , we want to thank you for being with us , agricultural worker program legal director at the California Rural Legal Assistance .
When we come back , we go to Oregon to speak with a former firefighter @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the climate apocalypse .
As devastating fires burn across the West Coast , President Trump continues to deny the climate crisis .
Stay with us .
AMY GOODMAN : “ Pressure Drop ” by Toots and the Maytals .
Reggae pioneer Toots Hibbert passed away at the age of 77 Friday .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: California, Oregon and Washington continue to face a climate apocalypse as devastating fires burn across the West Coast. At least 35 people have died, but the death toll is expected to be far higher. Oregon says it’s bracing for a, quote, “mass fatality event.” Entire towns have been destroyed. Nearly 5 million acres have already burned. Parts of the West Coast now have some of the worst air quality in the world.
President Trump is visiting California today but refuses to link the fires to the climate crisis. California Governor Gavin Newsom says there’s no question about the climate crisis.
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM: The debate is over around climate change. Just come to the state of California. Observe it with your own eyes. It’s not an intellectual debate. It’s not even debatable any longer, what we are experiencing — the extreme droughts, the extreme atmospheric rivers, the extreme heat. Just think. In the last few weeks alone, we’ve experienced the hottest August in California history. We had 14,000 dry lightning strikes over a three-day period. We’re experiencing temperatures, world record-breaking temperatures, in the state of California, 130 degrees.
AMY GOODMAN: Some of the most vulnerable people on the West Coast have been farmworkers, many of whom are undocumented. First came the pandemic, now the climate-fueled fires. Despite the risks, many feel they have to keep working, even if that means working inside evacuation zones. Authorities in California have repeatedly allowed growers to continue harvesting despite evacuation orders, putting workers at great risk. The Intercept reports agricultural commissioners in California’s wine regions have worked closely with the Sonoma County Farm Bureau and Sonoma County Winegrowers to repeatedly grant permission to grape growers to harvest in wildfire evacuation zones.
The issue is not new. In 2017, the Sonoma County Agricultural Commission issued evacuation zone entry permits to 280 groups of people to conduct, quote, “critical functions.” The Intercept reports such critical functions included, quote, “harvesting, feeding and watering livestock, managing fermentations, and irrigating nursery crops,” unquote.
Farmworkers have also been disproportionately hit by the pandemic. Gervacio Peña López is a former farmworker who now serves as the executive director of the Cultural Movement of Indigenous Alliance.
GERVACIO PEÑA LÓPEZ: [translated] From the beginning of the pandemic, there was the recommendation to stay home and protect yourself. But for our immigrant community, that was not a viable option. How are you going to survive — at the time, we thought, for the next two or three weeks, now it’s been half a year — without an income and without support from the government? This was almost impossible.
AMY GOODMAN: We’ll hear more from Gervacio Peña López. But first we’re joined by Estella Cisneros, the agriculture worker program legal director at California Rural [Legal] Assistance. She joins us from Fresno, California.
Estella, welcome to Democracy Now! It’s great to have you with us, although under these extremely dire circumstances. Can you explain what farmworkers are facing right now? So many in California who are not being forced to evacuate are staying in their homes, if at all possible, because the horrendous air quality conditions from the fires, this on top of COVID-19. But what about the farmworkers?
ESTELLA CISNEROS: Thank you, Amy. Such a pleasure to be here.
Right now farmworkers are facing a triple threat. They are facing the dangers of COVID-19, wildfire smoke, as well as an unprecedented heat wave. Farmworkers, as many already know, are essential workers. They have continued working throughout this entire pandemic. Agricultural workers include those who work in the fields, but also those who work in dairies, as well as meat processing and other food processing locations, as well as people who work in packing houses and nurseries. Now, farmworkers have continued to work during this whole time despite fears of contracting COVID-19 in the workplace, despite fears of getting heat stress while they’re at work, and now despite fears of the dangers that wildfire smoke brings.
Now, the reason wildfire smoke is so dangerous, not just for farmworkers, but anybody who inhales it, is because smoke tends to have particulate matter which is 2.5 [micrometers] or smaller. Now, the inhalation of what’s called particulate matter 2.5 or smaller is very, very dangerous for one’s health. It can lead to long-term both lung, heart and respiratory illnesses. So, the fact that farmworkers are out there working in the fields, facing the dangers of COVID-19, as well as the dangers of heat stress and wildfire smoke, is a very, very dire situation right now in California.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to turn to go back to former farmworker Gervacio Peña López, now executive director of the Cultural Movement of Indigenous Alliance, describing to Democracy Now! the dangerous working conditions that undocumented farmworkers face as they’re forced to work in the vineyards of Sonoma County amidst the wildfires.
GERVACIO PEÑA LÓPEZ: [translated] The situation with the smoke, because we have experienced this before, it is already known that employers, if they are conscious, they should provide N-95 masks to protect their workers, which is the only thing that filters the toxic particles. But working in the fields, everything moves very fast. Sometimes the workers themselves do not want to bring masks because they cannot breathe well. They have to move at a very fast pace because the promise is that they are paid for the work they produce. The typical amount of product to harvest in one day or one night is like two tons of grapes. So they receive two payments, or two minimum wages, but it is because they have to earn it.
AMY GOODMAN: So, Estella, if you can explain further: Are the farmers, are the owners of, for example, the vineyards — are they forcing workers to work? Do they lose their jobs if they don’t? And also, what kind of access do they have to masks?
ESTELLA CISNEROS: So, unfortunately, there are a lot of farmworkers who face the very real risk of losing their jobs if they either speak up about unsafe working conditions or if they refuse to work, before being provided, in this case, an N-95 respirator. We have had a lot of cases of workers who have faced retaliation after they have spoken up in the workplace about their rights, and so there is a very, very real danger of losing your job if you speak up.
Now, there’s that aspect of things, but there’s also the unspoken aspect of working in a workplace where N-95 respirators are not provided to you. Even if an employer doesn’t tell you, “You will be fired if you stop working,” what kind of message are workers getting when employers are not affirmatively following their duty in California, which is to address workplace health and safety hazards? What kind of message are employers sending it they are not proactively, as the law requires them to do, providing the training, as well as the equipment and the materials, the personal protective equipment that people need to access?
Now, when it comes to whether farmworkers are having access to N-95 masks, unfortunately, the reports that we’re hearing out in the fields is that hardly any farmworker is getting access to N-95 respirators, which is really the only thing that is going to keep them safe from particulate matter inhalation.
AMY GOODMAN: And I want to talk about the people that are coming out to the fields, even more so, and start with the former farmworker Gervacio Peña López. This is what he said, when you were talking about the triple threat.
GERVACIO PEÑA LÓPEZ: [translated] Due to the COVID-19 pandemic, many people were left without work in other industries, such as hotels, restaurants or factories. So, many people in our community, because they have the necessity, and others because they do not have documents and do not receive aid from the local or state or federal government, they have no other option but to go to work in the fields. And many of them do not know the risks.
AMY GOODMAN: So, Estella Cisneros, can you talk about who are the farmworkers in the fields, and tell us further where they’re coming from?
ESTELLA CISNEROS: Certainly. So, farmworkers in the state of California, and certainly across the nation, tend to be immigrants. They tend to be undocumented. And they tend to speak a language other than English. So, a lot of farmworkers have a very similar situation to what the gentleman was describing, in the sense that they were working in another industry, they’ve been displaced from that industry, and they’ve translated that skill set to working in the fields. However, there are a very large number of farmworkers who are essentially lifelong agricultural workers, and so they have been working in the fields for many, many years. And that’s certainly the population that is still active in the fields today.
AMY GOODMAN: How much do farmworkers get paid? And what about during this horrific period?
ESTELLA CISNEROS: The state minimum wage in California, which is one of the highest, if not the highest, currently is $13 an hour, if you have 26 or more employees, but it’s $12 an hour if you have 25 or fewer employees. Now, eventually, that minimum wage is going to increase to $15, but we’re still a couple of years off.
Farm work tends to be one of the lowest-paid industries in the United States. And so, even when workers are paid by what’s called piece rate, which is when you’re paid by the bucket or the pound, something other than by the hour, farmworkers still have very low wages. And actually, the fact that you’re paid by piece rate is actually a disincentive in terms of slowing down, in terms of taking health and safety breaks, because the more that you work, the more that you get paid.
And so, you either have workers who are being paid the minimum wage, which is not enough, nowhere near enough, or you have workers who are paid by piece rate, which actually is a disincentive, to continue to work more and work through all the rest breaks and lunch breaks that are more legally required, as well as work through the pandemic and wildfires and the heat.
AMY GOODMAN: And what kind of benefits do they get from the government, dealing with this period of the pandemic and the fires?
ESTELLA CISNEROS: If a worker has legal status, which a lot of farmworkers don’t, they may have access to the state’s unemployment insurance program, as well as, you know, a variety of other public assistance programs. However, such a large percentage of the farmworker population is undocumented. They really don’t have any other recourse in terms of income replacement. They are really struggling right now, if they are displaced, either by the fires or by the wildfire smoke, because they don’t have access to the safety nets that citizens and residents of the United States do —
AMY GOODMAN: And what kind of —
ESTELLA CISNEROS: — including the —
AMY GOODMAN: Go ahead.
ESTELLA CISNEROS: — including stimulus payments, as well as unemployment insurance payments.
AMY GOODMAN: And what kind of — and what languages are instructions given in? Are people getting accurate information about what’s happening, from COVID to the climate catastrophe?
ESTELLA CISNEROS: Unfortunately, we have heard reports of either employers or other individuals in the community giving incorrect information about COVID. So that’s one issue. We anticipate that there may — that that may also exist for information about heat stress, as well as the wildfire smoke.
I mean, even the information that’s provided by state and government and other governmental agencies, unfortunately, is not provided in Spanish. Just this morning — or, last night, I should say, I looked on the CAL FIRE website, as well as the website for the Fresno County Sheriff’s Department, which are the two agencies that are giving information on the wildfires, as well as evacuation zones, as well as evacuation orders. Neither of those are available in Spanish. That’s one issue.
The other issue, of course, is that a lot of farmworkers don’t speak Spanish; they speak Native Mexican Indigenous languages, such as Mixteco, Trique, Zapoteco. And these communities are facing even a greater challenge to the very critical and necessary information that they need in order to keep themselves and their families safe.
AMY GOODMAN: Finally, Estella Cisneros, we quoted The Intercept at the top, which has an article saying “In California’s Wine Country, Undocumented Grape Pickers Forced to Work in Fire Evacuation Zones,” the article stating, quote, “Officials that regulate evacuation order exemptions have close relationships to agricultural associations that serve local business owners’ interests.” Your response, and what needs to be done?
ESTELLA CISNEROS: So, while I don’t have personal information about the facts that are cited in that article, unfortunately, it has been a common occurrence in our experience that the safety of farmworkers is not prioritized and is actually sacrificed in the name of profit and business interests. Certainly, the reasons that those permits were given — taking care of livestock, picking fruits and vegetables — to a farmworker, the fact that some people may believe that that’s essential — right? — is very difficult to comprehend, when their literal health and safety, as well as that of their families, is being compromised.
The other part, of course, is that even in areas where you are not being evacuated, there is so much wildfire smoke in the air that you have two sets of workers that you’re worried about. One are the workers who are working in evacuation zones, such as those cited in that article, but then you also have a significant number of farmworkers who continue to work despite the air quality index being at hazardous levels.
What we’re asking for is for, first of all, employers to follow the law — there is a wildfire smoke emergency regulation that is currently in effect in California that requires employers to provide workers with N-95 masks or mask respirators — as well as take other measures to ensure that if a worker must work outside and they are exposed to wildfire smoke, that they have the correct equipment in order to protect them from inhaling that harmful smoke, as well as the wide distribution of N-95 masks — we have yet to speak to a worker, actually, that has actually been provided one by their employer — as well as robust and widespread enforcement of current regulations.
AMY GOODMAN: Estella Cisneros, we want to thank you for being with us, agricultural worker program legal director at the California Rural Legal Assistance.
When we come back, we go to Oregon to speak with a former firefighter, now wildland fire ecologist, amidst the climate apocalypse. As devastating fires burn across the West Coast, President Trump continues to deny the climate crisis. Stay with us.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: “Pressure Drop” by Toots and the Maytals. Reggae pioneer Toots Hibbert passed away at the age of 77 Friday.


democracynow--2020-09-14--Headlines for September 14, 2020

Headlines for September 14, 2020

The death toll from unprecedented fires raging across California , Oregon and Washington has risen to 35 , as smoke @ @ @ @ @ some of the world ’ s most polluted air to Portland , Los Angeles , @ @ @ @ @ other cities .
Nearly 5 million acres have already burned , with entire towns consumed @ @ @ @ @ is visiting California today but is refusing to link the fires to the climate crisis @ @ @ @ @ says there is no question about what is fueling the fires .
Gov .
Gavin @ @ @ @ @ folks , is America fast forward .
What we ’ re experiencing right here is @ @ @ @ @ across the United States of America unless we get our act together on climate change @ @ @ @ @ of all the BS that ’ s being spewed by a very small group of @ @ @ @ @ Governor Newsom signed a bill allowing former prisoner firefighters to have their records expunged , @ @ @ @ @ to get jobs as municipal firefighters .

The death toll from unprecedented fires raging across California, Oregon and Washington has risen to 35, as smoke from the record-shattering blazes brought some of the world’s most polluted air to Portland, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle and other cities. Nearly 5 million acres have already burned, with entire towns consumed by flames.
President Trump is visiting California today but is refusing to link the fires to the climate crisis. California Governor Gavin Newsom says there is no question about what is fueling the fires.
Gov. Gavin Newsom: “California, folks, is America fast forward. What we’re experiencing right here is coming to a community all across the United States of America unless we get our act together on climate change, unless we disabuse ourselves of all the BS that’s being spewed by a very small group of people.”
On Friday, Governor Newsom signed a bill allowing former prisoner firefighters to have their records expunged, paving the way for them to get jobs as municipal firefighters.


democracynow--2020-09-17--Daniel Ellsberg Warns U.S. Press Freedom Under Attack in WikiLeaks' Julian Assange Extradition Case

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
I ’ m Amy Goodman , with Nermeen Shaikh , as we turn now to the press freedom case unfolding in London , where Julian Assange , founder and editor-in-chief of the WikiLeaks , is fighting extradition to the United States over an ever-evolving array of espionage and hacking charges .
Assange faces almost certain conviction , if extradited here , and 175 years in prison .
U.S. prosecutors allege he conspired with whistleblower Chelsea Manning , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Army , to illegally download hundreds of thousands of war logs from Iraq and Afghanistan , along with a huge trove of classified cables from the U.S. State Department .
Experts have lined up to defend Assange , including the legendary Pentagon Papers whistleblower Dan Ellsberg , who testified Wednesday at the extradition via video stream from his home in California , in Berkeley .
In 1971 , Ellsberg was a high-level Pentagon analyst when he leaked a top-secret report on U.S. involvement in Vietnam that became known as the Pentagon Papers , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the public about the war .
Like Assange , Ellsberg provided the leaked documents to The New York Times .
Also like Assange , Ellsberg was charged under the Espionage Act and could have spent the rest of his life behind bars , though a judge threw out his case when it was revealed that President Nixon had ordered criminal break-ins seeking damaging information on him .
Dan Ellsberg joins us now from Berkeley .
Welcome back to Democracy Now !
, Dan .
We don ’ t have that much time , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the extradition hearing , asking that Julian Assange not be sent to the United States — though , we should say , he has basically been in captivity for almost eight years now , having gone into the Ecuadoran Embassy , where he got political refuge , but was there for years , before a new right-wing government in Ecuador revoked that political asylum status and the British authorities came in and ousted him and brought him to the Belmarsh prison , the high-security prison in Britain .
DANIEL ELLSBERG : Yes , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Amy , on the larger implications of this case , since we only have a minute or two .
Really , the American press has remained in kind of a state of denial for 40 years , really , since my case , that the Espionage Act has wording in it that could be aimed directly at them , at the journalists and publishers , although , until this case , it hasn ’ t done so .
So , now the American press is staring right down the barrel at the use @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and publishers for doing journalism , for doing what they do best , at their best , every day , of getting information that the government doesn ’ t want known to the public because of their wrongdoing , their lies , their crimes , whatever — there ’ s a lot of those .
And that ’ s what is mainly the secrecy system is intended to protect , indefinitely .
Now , it ’ s not only American journalists here , although the American First Amendment , the core of our @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , is at stake at this right now and is being attacked .
Actually , if Julian is extradited , as I say , as you said , it will lead to prosecution here , and probably conviction , and he will not be — he will be the first journalist and publisher , but not the last .
New York Times probably won ’ t be the second , either ; it might be the third or the fourth — and you , Amy , as well .
So , everybody has @ @ @ @ @ @ @ if Julian is extradited to the United States to face these charges for doing the journalism that he has , the charges that are made against him , no journalist in the world is safe from life imprisonment in the United States of America .
So the stakes here are enormous .
And for freedom of the press anywhere — ours is far from perfect , other places have less , a few have more — but the possibility of freedom of the press , and thus of democracy , is at stake @ @ @ @ @ @ @ That sounds almost certainly like hyperbole , and it isn ’ t .
The prosecution proved yesterday that they ’ re basing a lot of the case , first of all , on — not so much with me , but with other witnesses — on the fact that Chelsea Manning was encouraged by Julian to give this information , and he actually asked for documents .
I can ’ t count the number of times I ’ ve been asked for documents , as was quite proper for journalists .
So that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ through with every journalist who uses sources .
On the question of what — the damage he has done , the government is seeking to focus on the fact that names , unredacted , were subject , in their minds — and quite understandably , plausibly — to danger in the countries where they were by being published .
As I pointed out to the prosecutor , the way to stop that danger from occurring was to stop the publication of those names .
And those were not names that either the media @ @ @ @ @ @ @ put out .
On the contrary , the media and the government was well aware — the media was participating — that they were making enormous efforts to redact from this mass of documents the names of anyone who might be put in a feeling of anxiety or danger or might be in real danger .
And , second , they called on the government to supply those names that they could take out .
It was in the government ’ s capability to prevent those people , not of all of whom @ @ @ @ @ @ @ from even being revealed at all , even being in a state of anxiety , and they chose not to do it .
They have total responsibility for the anxiety , the fleeing of some of them from their countries — total responsibility , I would say , the government , since they could have prevented that and they chose not to .
I can only infer that they preferred to reserve charges , these charges against Julian Assange , eventually , rather than to protect those people from the possible danger that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it ’ s utmost cynical — as I was listening just now to the reports you were making .
We ’ re talking of people who are refugees from a state of war that the United States initiated , first with attack on Afghanistan , but in particular with its aggression against Iraq .
And I did mention this the other day to the prosecutor , that it ’ s , I can only say , cynical — I could use other words — to say that the government , our government , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ being made anxious and concerned , and some of them asking to leave the country with U.S. help , to be concerned about those people , when this government has led to the flight of 37 million refugees from American-initiated wars , the plight of some of whom you have just described .
It ’ s a mockery .
And if this trial is successful , if the extradition is successful , already that will have an intimidating effect on journalists around the world and be a direct attack on the First Amendment @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : Daniel Ellsberg , we want to thank you for being with us , again , one of the world ’ s most famous whistleblowers .
He testified at Julian Assange ’ s extradition hearing on Wednesday .
And just to be clear , Julian Assange , from being under house arrest in Britain to holing up in the Ecuadoran Embassy for over seven years to being at Belmarsh , the high-security prison , for a year and a half , has been actually in captivity for more than a decade .
That @ @ @ @ @ @ @ see our interview with one of his lawyers , Jennifer Robinson , go to democracynow.org .
That does it for our show .
A special Happy Belated Birthday to Sam Alcoff !
Democracy Now !
is produced with Renée Feltz , Mike Burke , Deena Guzder , Libby Rainey , María Taracena , Carla Wills , Tami Woronoff , Charina Nadura , Sam Alcoff , Tey-Marie Astudillo , John Hamilton , Robby Karran , Hany Massoud , Adriano Contreras .
Special thanks to Julie Crosby , Becca Staley , Miriam Barnard , Paul @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , Hugh Gran , Denis Moynihan , David Prude and Dennis McCormick .
I ’ m Amy Goodman , with Nermeen Shaikh .
Stay safe .
Wear a mask .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now! I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh, as we turn now to the press freedom case unfolding in London, where Julian Assange, founder and editor-in-chief of the WikiLeaks, is fighting extradition to the United States over an ever-evolving array of espionage and hacking charges. Assange faces almost certain conviction, if extradited here, and 175 years in prison. U.S. prosecutors allege he conspired with whistleblower Chelsea Manning, who had been private in the U.S. Army, to illegally download hundreds of thousands of war logs from Iraq and Afghanistan, along with a huge trove of classified cables from the U.S. State Department.
Experts have lined up to defend Assange, including the legendary Pentagon Papers whistleblower Dan Ellsberg, who testified Wednesday at the extradition via video stream from his home in California, in Berkeley. In 1971, Ellsberg was a high-level Pentagon analyst when he leaked a top-secret report on U.S. involvement in Vietnam that became known as the Pentagon Papers, which documented how officials had lied to the public about the war. Like Assange, Ellsberg provided the leaked documents to The New York Times. Also like Assange, Ellsberg was charged under the Espionage Act and could have spent the rest of his life behind bars, though a judge threw out his case when it was revealed that President Nixon had ordered criminal break-ins seeking damaging information on him. Dan Ellsberg joins us now from Berkeley.
Welcome back to Democracy Now!, Dan. We don’t have that much time, but talk about why you testified at the extradition hearing, asking that Julian Assange not be sent to the United States — though, we should say, he has basically been in captivity for almost eight years now, having gone into the Ecuadoran Embassy, where he got political refuge, but was there for years, before a new right-wing government in Ecuador revoked that political asylum status and the British authorities came in and ousted him and brought him to the Belmarsh prison, the high-security prison in Britain.
DANIEL ELLSBERG: Yes, I’d like to focus, Amy, on the larger implications of this case, since we only have a minute or two. Really, the American press has remained in kind of a state of denial for 40 years, really, since my case, that the Espionage Act has wording in it that could be aimed directly at them, at the journalists and publishers, although, until this case, it hasn’t done so. So, now the American press is staring right down the barrel at the use of the Espionage Act against American journalists and publishers for doing journalism, for doing what they do best, at their best, every day, of getting information that the government doesn’t want known to the public because of their wrongdoing, their lies, their crimes, whatever — there’s a lot of those. And that’s what is mainly the secrecy system is intended to protect, indefinitely.
Now, it’s not only American journalists here, although the American First Amendment, the core of our form of government, I would say, is at stake at this right now and is being attacked. Actually, if Julian is extradited, as I say, as you said, it will lead to prosecution here, and probably conviction, and he will not be — he will be the first journalist and publisher, but not the last. New York Times probably won’t be the second, either; it might be the third or the fourth — and you, Amy, as well. So, everybody has a stake in this. Meanwhile, if Julian is extradited to the United States to face these charges for doing the journalism that he has, the charges that are made against him, no journalist in the world is safe from life imprisonment in the United States of America. So the stakes here are enormous. And for freedom of the press anywhere — ours is far from perfect, other places have less, a few have more — but the possibility of freedom of the press, and thus of democracy, is at stake all over the world in this. That sounds almost certainly like hyperbole, and it isn’t.
The prosecution proved yesterday that they’re basing a lot of the case, first of all, on — not so much with me, but with other witnesses — on the fact that Chelsea Manning was encouraged by Julian to give this information, and he actually asked for documents. I can’t count the number of times I’ve been asked for documents, as was quite proper for journalists. So that conspiracy is something that every source goes through with every journalist who uses sources.
On the question of what — the damage he has done, the government is seeking to focus on the fact that names, unredacted, were subject, in their minds — and quite understandably, plausibly — to danger in the countries where they were by being published. As I pointed out to the prosecutor, the way to stop that danger from occurring was to stop the publication of those names. And those were not names that either the media or WikiLeaks or Julian Assange wanted to put out. On the contrary, the media and the government was well aware — the media was participating — that they were making enormous efforts to redact from this mass of documents the names of anyone who might be put in a feeling of anxiety or danger or might be in real danger. And, second, they called on the government to supply those names that they could take out. It was in the government’s capability to prevent those people, not of all of whom they could get in touch with, from even being revealed at all, even being in a state of anxiety, and they chose not to do it. They have total responsibility for the anxiety, the fleeing of some of them from their countries — total responsibility, I would say, the government, since they could have prevented that and they chose not to. I can only infer that they preferred to reserve charges, these charges against Julian Assange, eventually, rather than to protect those people from the possible danger that they were put in.
Finally, it’s utmost cynical — as I was listening just now to the reports you were making. We’re talking of people who are refugees from a state of war that the United States initiated, first with attack on Afghanistan, but in particular with its aggression against Iraq. And I did mention this the other day to the prosecutor, that it’s, I can only say, cynical — I could use other words — to say that the government, our government, is worried about 100 or 200 people being made anxious and concerned, and some of them asking to leave the country with U.S. help, to be concerned about those people, when this government has led to the flight of 37 million refugees from American-initiated wars, the plight of some of whom you have just described. It’s a mockery. And if this trial is successful, if the extradition is successful, already that will have an intimidating effect on journalists around the world and be a direct attack on the First Amendment of the United States.
AMY GOODMAN: Daniel Ellsberg, we want to thank you for being with us, again, one of the world’s most famous whistleblowers. He testified at Julian Assange’s extradition hearing on Wednesday. And just to be clear, Julian Assange, from being under house arrest in Britain to holing up in the Ecuadoran Embassy for over seven years to being at Belmarsh, the high-security prison, for a year and a half, has been actually in captivity for more than a decade. That does it for our show. To see our interview with one of his lawyers, Jennifer Robinson, go to democracynow.org.
That does it for our show. A special Happy Belated Birthday to Sam Alcoff! Democracy Now! is produced with Renée Feltz, Mike Burke, Deena Guzder, Libby Rainey, María Taracena, Carla Wills, Tami Woronoff, Charina Nadura, Sam Alcoff, Tey-Marie Astudillo, John Hamilton, Robby Karran, Hany Massoud, Adriano Contreras. Special thanks to Julie Crosby, Becca Staley, Miriam Barnard, Paul Powell, Mike DiFilippo, Miguel Nogueira, Hugh Gran, Denis Moynihan, David Prude and Dennis McCormick. I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh. Stay safe. Wear a mask.


democracynow--2020-09-17--After Fire Destroys Moria Refugee Camp in Greece, Demands Grow for Relocation, Not Another Camp

This is a rush transcript .
Copy may not be in its final form .
AMY GOODMAN : This is Democracy Now !
The Quarantine Report .
I ’ m Amy Goodman , with Nermeen Shaikh , as we go to Greece , where over 10,000 refugees and migrants remain homeless a week after a fire burned down a massive refugee camp last week .
Moria is Europe ’ s largest refugee camp .
The fire left nearly 13,000 refugees from Afghanistan , African countries and Syria without access to shelter , food or sanitation , raising concerns about a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Thousands are now moving into a temporary camp that officials say is ready to host at least 5,000 , but others are refusing to go .
They say they don ’ t trust the facility .
This comes as four Afghan men were charged with arson Wednesday for their alleged participation in the fire .
Two more minors are being held by the Greek police but haven ’ t formally been charged .
Greece claims the fire was started by a small group of asylum seekers in protest over conditions at the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ due to the coronavirus pandemic .
This is 23-year-old Aman Ullah from Kabul , Afghanistan , who had been in the Moria camp for almost a year .
AMY GOODMAN : Refugees have been protesting the conditions , pleading for help from other European nations .
Some of the asylum seekers , many of them women and children , are demanding they be allowed to leave the island of Lesbos , but the Greek government is refusing to relocate most people displaced by the fire to the mainland .
Over the weekend , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
On Tuesday , the Greek government asked the European Union to help run refugee camps on the country ’ s islands , where tens of thousands of refugees live .
This all comes as Greece ’ s conservative government has implemented increasingly hostile anti-immigrant policies in recent years .
For more , we go to the island of Lesbos , where we ’ re joined by reporter Franziska Grillmeier , who ’ s been closely following this .
Welcome to Democracy Now !
, Franziska .
Explain the situation .
Human Rights @ @ @ @ @ @ @ unsanitary and dangerous .
Now what happens to the homeless refugees ?
FRANZISKA GRILLMEIER : So , at the moment , the people are moving very slowly into the new camp structure , but very reluctantly , I have to say , because people are really fearing to just face another prison situation like they faced for the past weeks and months and years .
So this is why most of the people were staying out on the streets for eight nights now .
So , the fire happened one week ago , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with all they had on their body , into the streets and were blocked in one street part in between the camp and the main city of Mytilene .
And they have stayed there now for eight days , mostly , as we just heard , also without any running and clean water , without any sufficient food supplies , without electricity .
And so , you know , you have to imagine people were — they didn ’ t have diapers for the children .
They didn ’ t have toilet paper @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and they have elderly .
They have people in wheelchairs .
And we , as press , we couldn ’ t really approach the site in the last four days , so we had to find alternative ways in order to get to the people .
The same with humanitarian aid and doctors , and any medical and legal assistance wasn ’ t allowed through — I mean , not frequently .
This was really a problem .
So the people felt left alone , are highly desperate at this point .
Many @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a lot of medical cases still inside who weren ’ t treated in the old camp structure .
So , at the moment , it ’ s a real desperation .
And the calculation of the Greek government was , in my opinion , to really break the people ’ s spirit at this moment in order to go into the new camp facility many fear because it ’ s a symbol of retraumatization and , yeah , no safety for them .
NERMEEN SHAIKH : Franziska , could you talk about the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ refugees who have been held responsible for these fires , and also if a fire , certainly of this scale , is unprecedented , or whether there have been smaller incidents in other camps on various Greek islands ?
FRANZISKA GRILLMEIER : Yes , absolutely .
I mean , this fire is just a symbol of the many fires that burn daily in people ’ s lives there .
I mean , many fires physically broke out and also killed many people in the last years .
But also , a fire , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ medical treatment and not getting any school or medication into pharmacies .
You can ’ t just walk out , you know , and pull up , I don ’ t know , a bathing suit and go swimming or go to the cinema .
It ’ s not the case inside of these camps .
These are not really camp structures .
This is really , many people felt , like a prison and ghettos .
And this was really a foreseeable and dangerous backlash of this political calculation of the European @ @ @ @ @ @ @ So , you could really feel the camp is architected in a way — or , is an architecture of deterrence .
So , we were really wondering why it didn ’ t go up in flames , you know , earlier , in a way that , I mean , not that we calculated this catastrophe in .
But at the moment , I mean , the Greek government is framing people , criminalizing people , since years now , who are seeking shelter in Europe .
And this is also the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ framing .
And so , what we see now is that , yes , four people got arrested .
However , the question should not really be — and it ’ s not clear yet who really — like , what factors led to the fire , if there were also local responses in it or not .
However , really , the question should be at this point , like : How could it sustain for so long ?
And why are we watching for eight days now people in severe dehydration @ @ @ @ @ @ @ no political failure ; it ’ s really political calculation , what we see behind it .
And it ’ s kind of this — you get a bit distracted from the political calculation when you have someone to blame .
And blaming the refugees and asylum seekers at this point is also calculation .
NERMEEN SHAIKH : Franziska , well , you know , Moria , as we mentioned earlier , is the largest refugee camp — was the largest refugee camp across Europe , because Greece is the main port of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And as far as the rest of the EU is concerned , it ’ s only — Germany has taken in over a million refugees and has now said that it will take an additional now 1,500 refugees from Greece .
Could you talk about where the remaining countries in Europe stand , because Greece does bear a disproportionate burden for the care of these refugees , and the 2016 EU-Turkey agreement and how that altered the flow of migrants into Europe ?
FRANZISKA GRILLMEIER : Yes , absolutely .
So , what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ really the result of an echelonization campaign by the European member states , which means that you put or you shift the responsibility absolutely towards the border countries and to the Aegean islands , as we see it here in Greece at the moment , so not shouldering any responsibility from many member states of the EU and pushing Greece also to the margins and , yeah , really pushing them over the brink , actually , in the share they have to take at this point .
But also what we see @ @ @ @ @ @ @ European member states saying , well , Greece is the shield of Europe , so , I mean , these kind of camps are built on human rights violations .
The border deterrence is built on human rights violations .
At the moment , we see illegal pushbacks carried out , since weeks and months now , on these Aegean Sea strips , which means that the EU member states are actually in favor of Greece ’ s hard stand against refugees and asylum seekers and supporting this .
And this is — @ @ @ @ @ @ @ seen it in the past year now , that the Geneva Conventions are not functionable anymore , that , I mean , after 2016 , the EU member states said , “ OK , we want to control the situation , ” and they made a deal with Turkey to secure the borders , so much less people arrived in opposite to 2015 .
So , the people were stuck on these islands and had to wait for their asylum procedure to get through .
But the problem was that many people — @ @ @ @ @ @ @ very well , that it ’ s — as I said before , like , the whole camp was to designed to deter the people from coming .
And so , there was no political will in order to better the situation for those people , in order to say , “ Well , look , if you arrive in Europe , then you don ’ t necessarily get a better future.
” And there was always this narrative also of putting me and them , like of othering , definitely .
It @ @ @ @ @ @ @ feel that there were fences built around people seeking asylum here in Europe .
And it just transformed more and more into a black box , where human rights advocators and journalists didn ’ t get enough , yeah , entry , really , to cover the violations , the gross violations .
And this is what we see now in these last years and now really culminating into the fire , into also the situation now where people ’ s spirit is really broken , in order to go into a closed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the Greek government from the beginning of this year , saying that they want to transform open structures into prison camps , in a way , and to close structures , so that , yeah , people are sealed off .
AMY GOODMAN : Franziska , we have to go .
We have 30 seconds .
But Nermeen and I were in the — what was known as “ The Jungle , ” the largest refugee camp in France , a few years ago .
And now we see this camp , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Can you make the final link — yes , we ’ re in the midst of the pandemic , but between the refugees and war , the U.S. still involved in its longest war in U.S. history , and that is in Afghanistan , where so many of these refugees are from ?
FRANZISKA GRILLMEIER : So , I mean , yes , it ’ s 79 % are Afghan , and mostly Afghan families .
And people are really trying to seek shelter at this point .
And most of them don @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in Turkey also , so there is nowhere to go from this point onwards for them .
AMY GOODMAN : Franziska Grillmeier , we thank you so much for being with us , from the Greek island of Lesbos , where the largest refugee camp in Europe has just burned down .
When we come back , we go to Pentagon Paper whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg , who just testified yesterday at the extradition hearing of WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange in Britain .
Stay with us .

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now! The Quarantine Report. I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh, as we go to Greece, where over 10,000 refugees and migrants remain homeless a week after a fire burned down a massive refugee camp last week. Moria is Europe’s largest refugee camp. The fire left nearly 13,000 refugees from Afghanistan, African countries and Syria without access to shelter, food or sanitation, raising concerns about a coronavirus outbreak after 35 refugees tested positive. Thousands are now moving into a temporary camp that officials say is ready to host at least 5,000, but others are refusing to go. They say they don’t trust the facility.
This comes as four Afghan men were charged with arson Wednesday for their alleged participation in the fire. Two more minors are being held by the Greek police but haven’t formally been charged. Greece claims the fire was started by a small group of asylum seekers in protest over conditions at the camp, which had been locked down due to the coronavirus pandemic.
This is 23-year-old Aman Ullah from Kabul, Afghanistan, who had been in the Moria camp for almost a year.
AMAN ULLAH: [translated] We want a free life. We have come here to live. We are humans; we are not animals. They put us in this place where there is no life, and it’s like a jungle. A human cannot live in such tents. And if people live here for just one or three days, they will be fed up with the situation. We urge the Greek government to let us get out of here, because life is tough here. We have experienced hunger and thirst here. It has been for days that I didn’t drink clean water and I didn’t have food. I’m searching for water; otherwise, our children and I will die of thirst.
AMY GOODMAN: Refugees have been protesting the conditions, pleading for help from other European nations. Some of the asylum seekers, many of them women and children, are demanding they be allowed to leave the island of Lesbos, but the Greek government is refusing to relocate most people displaced by the fire to the mainland. Over the weekend, police fired tear gas on the demonstrators. On Tuesday, the Greek government asked the European Union to help run refugee camps on the country’s islands, where tens of thousands of refugees live. This all comes as Greece’s conservative government has implemented increasingly hostile anti-immigrant policies in recent years.
For more, we go to the island of Lesbos, where we’re joined by reporter Franziska Grillmeier, who’s been closely following this.
Welcome to Democracy Now!, Franziska. Explain the situation. Human Rights Watch called that camp that burned down unsanitary and dangerous. Now what happens to the homeless refugees?
FRANZISKA GRILLMEIER: So, at the moment, the people are moving very slowly into the new camp structure, but very reluctantly, I have to say, because people are really fearing to just face another prison situation like they faced for the past weeks and months and years. So this is why most of the people were staying out on the streets for eight nights now.
So, the fire happened one week ago, and people were fleeing, really, with all they had on their body, into the streets and were blocked in one street part in between the camp and the main city of Mytilene. And they have stayed there now for eight days, mostly, as we just heard, also without any running and clean water, without any sufficient food supplies, without electricity.
And so, you know, you have to imagine people were — they didn’t have diapers for the children. They didn’t have toilet paper. Most of them are families, and they have elderly. They have people in wheelchairs. And we, as press, we couldn’t really approach the site in the last four days, so we had to find alternative ways in order to get to the people. The same with humanitarian aid and doctors, and any medical and legal assistance wasn’t allowed through — I mean, not frequently. This was really a problem. So the people felt left alone, are highly desperate at this point. Many fainted on the way because you have a lot of medical cases still inside who weren’t treated in the old camp structure.
So, at the moment, it’s a real desperation. And the calculation of the Greek government was, in my opinion, to really break the people’s spirit at this moment in order to go into the new camp facility many fear because it’s a symbol of retraumatization and, yeah, no safety for them.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Franziska, could you talk about the people who have been arrested, the refugees who have been held responsible for these fires, and also if a fire, certainly of this scale, is unprecedented, or whether there have been smaller incidents in other camps on various Greek islands?
FRANZISKA GRILLMEIER: Yes, absolutely. I mean, this fire is just a symbol of the many fires that burn daily in people’s lives there. I mean, many fires physically broke out and also killed many people in the last years. But also, a fire, symbolically, is really not getting any medical treatment and not getting any school or medication into pharmacies. You can’t just walk out, you know, and pull up, I don’t know, a bathing suit and go swimming or go to the cinema. It’s not the case inside of these camps. These are not really camp structures. This is really, many people felt, like a prison and ghettos.
And this was really a foreseeable and dangerous backlash of this political calculation of the European Union to deter people from coming. So, you could really feel the camp is architected in a way — or, is an architecture of deterrence. So, we were really wondering why it didn’t go up in flames, you know, earlier, in a way that, I mean, not that we calculated this catastrophe in. But at the moment, I mean, the Greek government is framing people, criminalizing people, since years now, who are seeking shelter in Europe. And this is also the European member states who are supporting this framing.
And so, what we see now is that, yes, four people got arrested. However, the question should not really be — and it’s not clear yet who really — like, what factors led to the fire, if there were also local responses in it or not. However, really, the question should be at this point, like: How could it sustain for so long? And why are we watching for eight days now people in severe dehydration and no safety? And it is no political failure; it’s really political calculation, what we see behind it. And it’s kind of this — you get a bit distracted from the political calculation when you have someone to blame. And blaming the refugees and asylum seekers at this point is also calculation.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Franziska, well, you know, Moria, as we mentioned earlier, is the largest refugee camp — was the largest refugee camp across Europe, because Greece is the main port of entry to Europe for these refugees. And as far as the rest of the EU is concerned, it’s only — Germany has taken in over a million refugees and has now said that it will take an additional now 1,500 refugees from Greece. Could you talk about where the remaining countries in Europe stand, because Greece does bear a disproportionate burden for the care of these refugees, and the 2016 EU-Turkey agreement and how that altered the flow of migrants into Europe?
FRANZISKA GRILLMEIER: Yes, absolutely. So, what we can see at the moment is really the result of an echelonization campaign by the European member states, which means that you put or you shift the responsibility absolutely towards the border countries and to the Aegean islands, as we see it here in Greece at the moment, so not shouldering any responsibility from many member states of the EU and pushing Greece also to the margins and, yeah, really pushing them over the brink, actually, in the share they have to take at this point.
But also what we see now is that you really have the European member states saying, well, Greece is the shield of Europe, so, I mean, these kind of camps are built on human rights violations. The border deterrence is built on human rights violations. At the moment, we see illegal pushbacks carried out, since weeks and months now, on these Aegean Sea strips, which means that the EU member states are actually in favor of Greece’s hard stand against refugees and asylum seekers and supporting this. And this is — I mean, we’ve really seen it in the past year now, that the Geneva Conventions are not functionable anymore, that, I mean, after 2016, the EU member states said, “OK, we want to control the situation,” and they made a deal with Turkey to secure the borders, so much less people arrived in opposite to 2015.
So, the people were stuck on these islands and had to wait for their asylum procedure to get through. But the problem was that many people — that the bureaucracy didn’t work very well, that it’s — as I said before, like, the whole camp was to designed to deter the people from coming. And so, there was no political will in order to better the situation for those people, in order to say, “Well, look, if you arrive in Europe, then you don’t necessarily get a better future.” And there was always this narrative also of putting me and them, like of othering, definitely. It was never like — you could really feel that there were fences built around people seeking asylum here in Europe. And it just transformed more and more into a black box, where human rights advocators and journalists didn’t get enough, yeah, entry, really, to cover the violations, the gross violations.
And this is what we see now in these last years and now really culminating into the fire, into also the situation now where people’s spirit is really broken, in order to go into a closed camp, because this was the strategy of the Greek government from the beginning of this year, saying that they want to transform open structures into prison camps, in a way, and to close structures, so that, yeah, people are sealed off.
AMY GOODMAN: Franziska, we have to go. We have 30 seconds. But Nermeen and I were in the — what was known as “The Jungle,” the largest refugee camp in France, a few years ago. And now we see this camp, where the overwhelming majority are Afghans. Can you make the final link — yes, we’re in the midst of the pandemic, but between the refugees and war, the U.S. still involved in its longest war in U.S. history, and that is in Afghanistan, where so many of these refugees are from?
FRANZISKA GRILLMEIER: So, I mean, yes, it’s 79% are Afghan, and mostly Afghan families. And people are really trying to seek shelter at this point. And most of them don’t have any safe third country in Turkey also, so there is nowhere to go from this point onwards for them.
AMY GOODMAN: Franziska Grillmeier, we thank you so much for being with us, from the Greek island of Lesbos, where the largest refugee camp in Europe has just burned down.
When we come back, we go to Pentagon Paper whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg, who just testified yesterday at the extradition hearing of WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange in Britain. Stay with us.