vox--2020-07-29--“It’s ideologue meets grifter”: How Bill Barr made Trumpism possible

On July 28 , Attorney General Bill Barr appeared before the House Judiciary Committee to face questions from lawmakers over the Trump administration ’ s use of force in nationwide protests and his intervention in cases involving the president ’ s former advisers .
It was a contentious appearance .
Barr defended his controversial actions and sparred with Democrats , who believe , as Rep. Jerrold Nadler ( NY ) put it , that he has “ aided and abetted the worst failings of the president.
” The hearing was the latest turn in Barr ’ s tumultuous — and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s top law enforcement officer .
Under Barr , the Department of Justice has become a political instrument for President Trump .
Whether it ’ s misleading the public about the Mueller report or using tear gas to disperse peaceful protesters so that Trump could stage a photo op , Barr has repeatedly sacrificed the dignity of his office in order to please his boss .
If you don ’ t know much about Barr ’ s history , it ’ s hard to make sense of his behavior .
Having already served @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s administration , Barr had a solid reputation as a serious guy .
When he reemerged in 2018 as Trump ’ s pick for attorney general , he was widely seen as a creature of the Republican establishment , and his selection was “ greeted with a measure of relief ” within the DOJ , according to the New York Times .
But events since have shown him to be a more than willing accomplice in Trump ’ s slow-motion destruction of democratic norms .
Which raises the question : Why has @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to an aspiring authoritarian like Trump ?
To get some answers , I reached out last month to David Rohde , an editor at the New Yorker who profiled Barr for the magazine in January .
In this conversation , which originally ran in late June , I ask Rohde who Barr really is and what ’ s driving his political decision-making in this moment .
As Rohde put it , Barr is “ a culture warrior from the ’ 80s ” who is “ fully committed ” to protecting Trump .
We @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s loyalty to Trump and why there ’ s no going back for him at this point .
A lightly edited transcript of our conversation follows .
What ’ s the most important thing people should know about William Barr ?
I think the most important thing to understand is that he has one of the most extreme views of how powerful an American president should be .
What does that mean ?
It means that he does not believe that we should have three co-equal branches of government .
He believes the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and the courts .
In his mind , that ’ s the only thing that can keep the country safe when it is threatened by war , natural disaster , or economic collapse .
He believes that is what the founders intended .
I wonder why Barr ’ s radicalism wasn ’ t reflected in the commentary when he was first nominated by Trump .
The conventional wisdom at the time was that he was a banal establishment type .
Why do you think this was missed ?
Barr has held these views @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was seen as a traditionalist when Trump nominated him to be attorney general .
In hindsight , it looks like the extremism of Barr ’ s views didn ’ t emerge during his first tenure as attorney general because the president he served then , George H. W. Bush , was a traditionalist .
Bush had witnessed Nixon ’ s abuses and resignation .
Bush accepted that the three branches were co-equal .
Working as attorney general for Donald Trump , obviously , is completely different .
Trump is contemptuous of post-Watergate norms @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Trump has enabled Barr to pursue his decades-long goal of increasing the power of the presidency .
And Barr has enabled Trump to stonewall congressional investigations to an extent not seen since Nixon .
It ’ s an ideologue meets grifter .
But the idea of “ checks and balances ” is literally the basis of our constitutional system .
Why does he find it so inadequate ?
He believes that if you look at American history , it ’ s been the presidency that has been able to intervene when we ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ natural disaster .
And Congress has dithered and the courts simply don ’ t have the mechanisms to respond .
He really believes this in his bones .
In fact , I just spoke to someone who knows him well , who works closely with him , and he told me that Barr is fully committed , that he stands by every action he ’ s taken in this administration , from clearing Lafayette Park with tear gas to trying to fire the US attorney in Manhattan this weekend .
And this person @ @ @ @ @ @ @ because he himself believes in empowering the presidency .
It is not because he ’ s being pressured or bullied by Trump .
Yes , he ’ s fully committed .
And if you pay attention to what he ’ s been saying for decades , nothing he ’ s doing now is all that surprising .
He ’ s been calling for tough law-and-order policies for a long time .
His reaction to the demonstrations in Washington was nothing new .
When the Rodney King riots erupted in the 1990s , Barr @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Bush .
He sent thousands of federal agents out to Los Angeles to put down the riots and saw it as a missed opportunity to crack down on gangs in Los Angeles .
He agreed to bring charges against the officers who beat Rodney King , but he complained it was a missed opportunity and federal civil rights charges should have been brought against the gangs as well .
So the idea of dominating the streets , the idea of overwhelming force to bring order , is something he ’ s advocated for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that he ’ s mouthing for Trump .
The thing about Barr is that he ’ s sort of a quiet revolutionary , or at least that ’ s the way he comes across in your profile .
He understands how power works and he ’ s willing to methodically transform the system from within .
Very much so .
I mean , it ’ s funny watching interviews with him .
He ’ s very measured in how he speaks , but what he is saying is very far right and deeply @ @ @ @ @ @ @ actions are extraordinary , at times unprecedented , for an attorney general , from dispatching National Guard troops from multiple states all over DC , to setting up a command bunker where he oversaw all of that , to removing prosecutors and pushing for lower sentences for the president ’ s allies .
He speaks carefully but his actions are anything but measured .
How important is Barr ’ s Catholicism to his moral and political project ?
I can ’ t read his mind and I can ’ t say for sure @ @ @ @ @ @ @ he ’ s pretty open about what he believes and why he believes it .
He has said things in the past that showed a kind of moral conservatism .
He said , for example , that he thought crime was a result of moral failings , not poverty , at a Federalist Society symposium in the ’ 90s .
He ’ s aggressively backed tough sentences in the past and today for drug crimes .
And he feels that people who are religiously observant are mocked in popular culture and that practicing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ assault today by liberal elites in the United States .
Barr gave a speech at Notre Dame in 2019 that most people are not aware of but it ’ s incredibly revealing .
What stands out to me isn ’ t his religiosity but his profound hostility to secular culture , which he calls “ organized destruction ” and an engine of “ moral relativism.
” He really does see himself on the front lines of an epic religious and cultural struggle , doesn ’ t he ?
Yeah , he does .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ with someone who works closely with him .
He told me that Barr is convinced that mail-in ballots are a source of mob rule , that he ’ s worried about mob rule in the US .
He complains that tech companies , when they label the president ’ s tweets , are taking away the free press rights of conservatives .
In other words , all of these banal conservative talking points you hear all the time — he really believes them .
He ’ s a culture warrior from the ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in the position of attorney general 40 years later and fighting the same battles .
The obsession with cultural decline is worth lingering on because it really does seem like the guiding motivation for Barr .
In that Notre Dame speech , he basically blames every “ social pathology ” ( from depression to suicide rates to violence and drug addiction ) on secularism .
Do you know what he means by that ?
He argues that the founding fathers believed that for American democracy to succeed , Americans had to be religiously @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for people to control their behavior and to not abuse their power , and so those moral guideposts should come from religion , not from the government itself .
And he felt that the courts made a variety of decisions in the 1960s that produced a bunch of toxic social changes .
What does he actually want ?
Does he want a theocracy ?
No , he wants a presidential republic where the chief executive is judged in two ways : impeachment and reelection every four years .
He sees federal judges declaring @ @ @ @ @ @ @ independent counsels like Robert Mueller investigating the president as improper infringements on presidential power by the judicial and legislative branches .
They ’ re denying the president his legitimate constitutional right to run the executive branch as he sees fit .
In a speech last fall at the Federalist Society , he said part of the reason he joined the Trump administration was to halt the weakening of the presidency that he felt was going on in the Trump era , that judges and Democrats in Congress were setting dangerous precedents that would @ @ @ @ @ @ @ who couldn ’ t hold the country together in a crisis .
What I hear when I listen to him speak is someone who has decided that democracy is too problematic , that the culture has been hijacked , and that the only response is to exercise power from the top down .
Well , I think what Barr believes is that the Hollywood cultural elite is forcing cultural change that most Americans oppose , and that the news media and Hollywood together are exaggerating the number of liberals in the country .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ engage in the same sort of rough-and-tumble politics as Trump .
So there ’ s a sense that this is a game for power and you either win or lose .
There ’ s a fierce belief among Barr and other administration officials that whatever Trump ’ s problems and behavioral issues , and there are lots of them , they still believe Trump is delivering on a conservative agenda .
And one person close to Barr just basically replied , “ Of course we support this president and of course we ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ” And what decisions or what changes is Barr reacting against ?
He cites Roe v. Wade as the primary example .
And he blames a wide variety of social problems , from children born out of wedlock to drug addiction , on what he claims is an unremitting assault on religion and traditional values by militant secularists .
Barr has this reputation as a very shrewd operator but it does seem like he ’ s misreading the room lately .
Clearing protesters from Lafayette Square and the attempt to remove Berman , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ were both off politically .
Barr mishandled them .
I think that how Trump has responded to the pandemic and the George Floyd demonstrations gives me the sense that both Trump and Barr are off their game .
The fact that Trump and Barr lost two major Supreme Court decisions last week , that Berman so openly defied Barr ’ s order to resign , shows that their political capital could be decreasing .
So there ’ s an argument that Trump and Barr are just out of touch with the sentiment of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was saying earlier , Barr is still mouthing the same “ law and order ” talking points you heard in the ’ 80s .
And even in interviews now , Barr will acknowledge that racism exists but he rejects the idea that there ’ s systemic racism in this country .
He clearly doesn ’ t feel the sense of urgency that so many Americans feel .
For better or worse , Barr sees this moment as his last stand , right ?
There ’ s no going back at this point .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ , the person I spoke to who ’ s close to Barr says he really believes what he ’ s doing is right .
And friends of Barr have told me that none of these views are new .
And he has nothing to lose .
He ’ s had a long , successful career .
Nothing is more important to him than this right now .
And I was told today Barr will absolutely be serving through the November election and the remainder of Trump ’ s term .
He is fully @ @ @ @ @ @ @ day at Vox , we aim to answer your most important questions and provide you , and our audience around the world , with information that has the power to save lives .
Our mission has never been more vital than it is in this moment : to empower you through understanding .
Vox ’ s work is reaching more people than ever , but our distinctive brand of explanatory journalism takes resources — particularly during a pandemic and an economic downturn .
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On July 28, Attorney General Bill Barr appeared before the House Judiciary Committee to face questions from lawmakers over the Trump administration’s use of force in nationwide protests and his intervention in cases involving the president’s former advisers.
It was a contentious appearance. Barr defended his controversial actions and sparred with Democrats, who believe, as Rep. Jerrold Nadler (NY) put it, that he has “aided and abetted the worst failings of the president.”
The hearing was the latest turn in Barr’s tumultuous — and troubling — stint as the nation’s top law enforcement officer.
Under Barr, the Department of Justice has become a political instrument for President Trump. Whether it’s misleading the public about the Mueller report or using tear gas to disperse peaceful protesters so that Trump could stage a photo op, Barr has repeatedly sacrificed the dignity of his office in order to please his boss.
If you don’t know much about Barr’s history, it’s hard to make sense of his behavior. Having already served as AG under George H.W. Bush’s administration, Barr had a solid reputation as a serious guy. When he reemerged in 2018 as Trump’s pick for attorney general, he was widely seen as a creature of the Republican establishment, and his selection was “greeted with a measure of relief” within the DOJ, according to the New York Times.
But events since have shown him to be a more than willing accomplice in Trump’s slow-motion destruction of democratic norms. Which raises the question: Why has someone like Bill Barr given himself over to an aspiring authoritarian like Trump?
To get some answers, I reached out last month to David Rohde, an editor at the New Yorker who profiled Barr for the magazine in January. In this conversation, which originally ran in late June, I ask Rohde who Barr really is and what’s driving his political decision-making in this moment. As Rohde put it, Barr is “a culture warrior from the ’80s” who is “fully committed” to protecting Trump. We talk about the ideology animating Barr’s loyalty to Trump and why there’s no going back for him at this point.
A lightly edited transcript of our conversation follows.
Sean Illing
What’s the most important thing people should know about William Barr?
David Rohde
I think the most important thing to understand is that he has one of the most extreme views of how powerful an American president should be.
Sean Illing
What does that mean?
David Rohde
It means that he does not believe that we should have three co-equal branches of government. He believes the president should be more powerful than Congress and the courts. In his mind, that’s the only thing that can keep the country safe when it is threatened by war, natural disaster, or economic collapse. He believes that is what the founders intended.
Sean Illing
I wonder why Barr’s radicalism wasn’t reflected in the commentary when he was first nominated by Trump. The conventional wisdom at the time was that he was a banal establishment type. Why do you think this was missed?
David Rohde
Barr has held these views consistently throughout his life. But he was seen as a traditionalist when Trump nominated him to be attorney general. In hindsight, it looks like the extremism of Barr’s views didn’t emerge during his first tenure as attorney general because the president he served then, George H. W. Bush, was a traditionalist. Bush had witnessed Nixon’s abuses and resignation. Bush accepted that the three branches were co-equal.
Working as attorney general for Donald Trump, obviously, is completely different. Trump is contemptuous of post-Watergate norms and of congressional and judicial oversight. Trump has enabled Barr to pursue his decades-long goal of increasing the power of the presidency. And Barr has enabled Trump to stonewall congressional investigations to an extent not seen since Nixon. It’s an ideologue meets grifter.
Sean Illing
But the idea of “checks and balances” is literally the basis of our constitutional system. Why does he find it so inadequate?
David Rohde
He believes that if you look at American history, it’s been the presidency that has been able to intervene when we’ve faced war or economic calamity or natural disaster. And Congress has dithered and the courts simply don’t have the mechanisms to respond. He really believes this in his bones.
In fact, I just spoke to someone who knows him well, who works closely with him, and he told me that Barr is fully committed, that he stands by every action he’s taken in this administration, from clearing Lafayette Park with tear gas to trying to fire the US attorney in Manhattan this weekend. And this person said that Barr is doing these actions because he himself believes in empowering the presidency. It is not because he’s being pressured or bullied by Trump.
Sean Illing
So he’s a real ideological warrior?
David Rohde
Yes, he’s fully committed. And if you pay attention to what he’s been saying for decades, nothing he’s doing now is all that surprising. He’s been calling for tough law-and-order policies for a long time. His reaction to the demonstrations in Washington was nothing new.
When the Rodney King riots erupted in the 1990s, Barr was attorney general for George H.W. Bush. He sent thousands of federal agents out to Los Angeles to put down the riots and saw it as a missed opportunity to crack down on gangs in Los Angeles. He agreed to bring charges against the officers who beat Rodney King, but he complained it was a missed opportunity and federal civil rights charges should have been brought against the gangs as well.
So the idea of dominating the streets, the idea of overwhelming force to bring order, is something he’s advocated for decades. It’s not something that he’s mouthing for Trump.
Sean Illing
The thing about Barr is that he’s sort of a quiet revolutionary, or at least that’s the way he comes across in your profile. He understands how power works and he’s willing to methodically transform the system from within.
David Rohde
Very much so. I mean, it’s funny watching interviews with him. He’s very measured in how he speaks, but what he is saying is very far right and deeply conservative across the board. And his actions are extraordinary, at times unprecedented, for an attorney general, from dispatching National Guard troops from multiple states all over DC, to setting up a command bunker where he oversaw all of that, to removing prosecutors and pushing for lower sentences for the president’s allies. He speaks carefully but his actions are anything but measured.
Sean Illing
How important is Barr’s Catholicism to his moral and political project?
David Rohde
I can’t read his mind and I can’t say for sure what role his faith plays, but he’s pretty open about what he believes and why he believes it. He has said things in the past that showed a kind of moral conservatism. He said, for example, that he thought crime was a result of moral failings, not poverty, at a Federalist Society symposium in the ’90s. He’s aggressively backed tough sentences in the past and today for drug crimes. And he feels that people who are religiously observant are mocked in popular culture and that practicing one’s religion consistently is under assault today by liberal elites in the United States.
Sean Illing
Barr gave a speech at Notre Dame in 2019 that most people are not aware of but it’s incredibly revealing. What stands out to me isn’t his religiosity but his profound hostility to secular culture, which he calls “organized destruction” and an engine of “moral relativism.” He really does see himself on the front lines of an epic religious and cultural struggle, doesn’t he?
David Rohde
Yeah, he does. And again, I just spoke today with someone who works closely with him. He told me that Barr is convinced that mail-in ballots are a source of mob rule, that he’s worried about mob rule in the US. He complains that tech companies, when they label the president’s tweets, are taking away the free press rights of conservatives. In other words, all of these banal conservative talking points you hear all the time — he really believes them. He’s a culture warrior from the ’80s, but he’s back in the position of attorney general 40 years later and fighting the same battles.
Sean Illing
The obsession with cultural decline is worth lingering on because it really does seem like the guiding motivation for Barr. In that Notre Dame speech, he basically blames every “social pathology” (from depression to suicide rates to violence and drug addiction) on secularism.
Do you know what he means by that?
David Rohde
He argues that the founding fathers believed that for American democracy to succeed, Americans had to be religiously observant, because religion provides a mechanism for people to control their behavior and to not abuse their power, and so those moral guideposts should come from religion, not from the government itself. And he felt that the courts made a variety of decisions in the 1960s that produced a bunch of toxic social changes.
Sean Illing
What does he actually want? Does he want a theocracy?
David Rohde
No, he wants a presidential republic where the chief executive is judged in two ways: impeachment and reelection every four years. He sees federal judges declaring Trump’s travel ban illegal or independent counsels like Robert Mueller investigating the president as improper infringements on presidential power by the judicial and legislative branches. They’re denying the president his legitimate constitutional right to run the executive branch as he sees fit.
In a speech last fall at the Federalist Society, he said part of the reason he joined the Trump administration was to halt the weakening of the presidency that he felt was going on in the Trump era, that judges and Democrats in Congress were setting dangerous precedents that would leave the country with a powerless president who couldn’t hold the country together in a crisis.
Sean Illing
What I hear when I listen to him speak is someone who has decided that democracy is too problematic, that the culture has been hijacked, and that the only response is to exercise power from the top down.
David Rohde
Well, I think what Barr believes is that the Hollywood cultural elite is forcing cultural change that most Americans oppose, and that the news media and Hollywood together are exaggerating the number of liberals in the country. And I think he believes that liberals engage in the same sort of rough-and-tumble politics as Trump. So there’s a sense that this is a game for power and you either win or lose.
There’s a fierce belief among Barr and other administration officials that whatever Trump’s problems and behavioral issues, and there are lots of them, they still believe Trump is delivering on a conservative agenda. And one person close to Barr just basically replied, “Of course we support this president and of course we’re going to continue working for him.”
Sean Illing
And what decisions or what changes is Barr reacting against?
David Rohde
He cites Roe v. Wade as the primary example. And he blames a wide variety of social problems, from children born out of wedlock to drug addiction, on what he claims is an unremitting assault on religion and traditional values by militant secularists.
Sean Illing
Barr has this reputation as a very shrewd operator but it does seem like he’s misreading the room lately.
David Rohde
Clearing protesters from Lafayette Square and the attempt to remove Berman, the US attorney in New York, were both off politically. Barr mishandled them. I think that how Trump has responded to the pandemic and the George Floyd demonstrations gives me the sense that both Trump and Barr are off their game. The fact that Trump and Barr lost two major Supreme Court decisions last week, that Berman so openly defied Barr’s order to resign, shows that their political capital could be decreasing.
So there’s an argument that Trump and Barr are just out of touch with the sentiment of this country right now. As I was saying earlier, Barr is still mouthing the same “law and order” talking points you heard in the ’80s. And even in interviews now, Barr will acknowledge that racism exists but he rejects the idea that there’s systemic racism in this country. He clearly doesn’t feel the sense of urgency that so many Americans feel.
Sean Illing
For better or worse, Barr sees this moment as his last stand, right? There’s no going back at this point.
David Rohde
He’s all in. Again, the person I spoke to who’s close to Barr says he really believes what he’s doing is right. And friends of Barr have told me that none of these views are new. And he has nothing to lose. He’s had a long, successful career. Nothing is more important to him than this right now. And I was told today Barr will absolutely be serving through the November election and the remainder of Trump’s term. He is fully committed to seeing this through.


vox--2020-07-29--Why Cornel West is hopeful (but not optimistic)

Since this summer ’ s racial justice protests began filling the streets , the one public figure I ’ ve wanted to talk to more than anyone else is Cornel West .
A professor of the Practice of Public Philosophy at Harvard , he ’ s one of the most prominent and provocative Black intellectuals alive .
He ’ s known for calling out racism , predatory capitalism , and unjust policies wherever he sees them .
And judging by his new podcast , The Tight Rope ( co-hosted by Tricia Rose ) , I was sure he ’ d @ @ @ @ @ @ @ epidemics pummeling America today : white supremacy and Covid-19 .
So I was thrilled when West agreed to come on Future Perfect ’ s limited-series podcast , The Way Through , which is all about mining the world ’ s rich philosophical and spiritual traditions for guidance that can help us through these challenging times .
West and I talked about some potential tools for dealing with white supremacy and Covid-19 .
We discussed Black liberation theology , which took off in the 1960s and emphasized that God ’ s primary concern is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ West is a Christian who ’ s steeped in that theology .
But West is also steeped in a bunch of secular philosophical traditions — from Marxism to existentialism to pragmatism — so I asked him what those traditions can teach us about how to handle our current crises .
We covered questions like : Is the pandemic weakening or strengthening white supremacy ?
What ’ s the difference between optimism and hope — and why does West say he ’ s not optimistic but is hopeful ?
By the end of this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
You can hear our full conversation in the podcast here .
A partial transcript , edited for length and clarity , follows .
Subscribe to Future Perfect : The Way Through on Apple Podcasts , Google Podcasts , Spotify , Stitcher , or wherever you listen to podcasts .
Dr. West , we ’ ve been through some really hard months .
How would you diagnose the crisis that we see convulsing American life ?
You ’ ve got an empire that is experiencing spiritual decay and moral decline driven by greed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hate being used as a divisive way of pitting citizens against one another .
And then you ’ ve got corruption — not just in the White House , but corruption really throughout our institutions .
So then when the pandemic hit , we began to see just the raw reality of the empire and the indifference towards the vulnerable .
You began to see the health care system and all of its frailty , which my dear brother Bernie Sanders was pointing out with such courage just a few months ago during @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the wealth inequality , the white supremacy , the male supremacy that the Me Too movement pointed out .
You began to see the ways in which precious trans people are devalued , and gays and lesbians are dishonored .
You just began to see the ugliness .
But you also see resilience .
People in the streets .
People waking up .
Some people even recognizing , lo and behold , America is an empire !
It ’ s not just a democratic experiment .
It ’ s a democratic experiment against @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a dispossession of land of indigenous peoples , the enslavement of Africans , white brothers who are working with no property — these chickens are all coming home to roost at the same time .
That ’ s what I meant when I said we are witnessing America as a failed social experiment .
Our conception of ourselves as being so exceptional is being shattered .
Our conception of ourselves as somehow being innocent is being radically called into question .
There are different faith traditions and philosophies we can draw on for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Let ’ s start by talking about Black liberation theology , which drew on the thought of Martin Luther King Jr. , Malcolm X , and others .
Your friend Dr. James Cone , the theologian who founded Black liberation theology in the 1960s , described this theology as an interpretation of the Christian gospel from the perspectives of people who were at the bottom in society , the lowest racial and economic groups .
And he encouraged Americans to reimagine Jesus as black .
He drew parallels between the crucifixion of Jesus @ @ @ @ @ @ @ So talk to me about Black liberation theology and the role you think it can play in today ’ s fight for racial justice .
Can it provide the spiritual scaffolding for this movement ?
It can certainly be one dimension in the leaven in the loaf .
In the Democratic loaf .
I think in order to understand Jim Cone , we ’ ve got to go back to Hebrew scripture , because Hebrew scripture itself was one of the great moments in the moral evolution of the species .
Unlike the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Hebrew scripture comes along and says to be human is to spread hesed — steadfast love , lovingkindness — to the orphan , the widow , the motherless , the fatherless , the poor , the persecuted , the oppressed .
And that I am going to be a God of the oppressed , of a hated people , a haunted people , of Jews under vicious domination and oppression .
But I make a covenant with you : Do justly .
Love mercy .
Walk humbly with thy God .
Jesus comes @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was at work in that covenant .
James Cone then comes along in the most barbaric century , the 20th century .
Hundreds of millions of folks killed by Hitler , Stalin , European colonialism .
Cone comes along and says , lo and behold , there is also an oppressed people in the midst of the American empire who have made a covenant with a God , who have fallen in love with a Palestinian Jew named Jesus .
And this Jesus , when he makes his way from Galilee into Jerusalem @ @ @ @ @ @ @ weeps for Jerusalem .
And he runs the money changers out of the temple .
Serious business .
You don ’ t see that on the walls of churches .
No , not that Jesus .
No , you get a domesticated , deodorized Jesus .
That ’ s the Constantinian Christianity that becomes Christianity as a state religion .
But the Jesus that Cone is talking about is running out the greedy , the indifferent , the callous , the powerful who are using their wealth and power to oppress poor people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it from the vantage point of African slaves in the United States .
Look at it from the vantage point of Negroes under Jim Crow .
Look at it from the vantage point of Black folk under the new Jim Crow .
You have a very class-conscious race analysis compared to a lot of mainstream intellectuals , including Black intellectuals .
Do you think the current protest movement is spending enough time talking about class ?
Well , it depends on who you talk to , my dear sister .
Anytime I get @ @ @ @ @ @ @ make the connection between police power and police murder on the one hand with Wall Street power and Wall Street crimes on the other .
So that you get the connection between white supremacy on the ground , and predatory capitalism , especially the financial services class , especially the oligarchs and plutocrats .
So I love your question .
This class question is in no way a luxury .
You ’ ve written a lot about what it means to be an intellectual , especially a Black intellectual .
But there ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in the US .
So what role do you see for intellectuals now in responding to the pandemic and the protests ?
I want to point out that America has always been a profoundly anti-intellectual civilization .
Richard Hofstadter pointed this out with great , profound insight in his classic , Anti-Intellectualism in American Life .
Remember , there he draws a distinction between intelligence and intellect .
He says Americans love intelligence because it ’ s a manipulative function that allows them to do well , especially in the marketplace .
Intelligence @ @ @ @ @ @ @ calculating orientation , to make discerning insights to make more money for upward mobility , for the American dream .
Intellect is an interrogation of the most basic assumptions and presuppositions .
So intelligence makes immediate evaluations , intellect evaluates the evaluations .
That ’ s how Hofstadter puts it .
There ’ s never been space in American civilization , in American empire , for serious intellectual presence .
Never .
That ’ s why our greatest novelists , like Melville — nobody cares .
It is hard for any intellectual to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , for Black intellectuals it becomes even more challenging .
Enslaved Africans were not even allowed to learn how to read and write .
When we do emerge with the word , the question becomes , can we be as empowering as the musicians ?
The intellectuals who have been most effective in American culture , it ’ s been much more the musicians than academicians .
Because the musicians have been able to couch stories , narrative , ideas , visions in forms that everyday people in a business civilization can take @ @ @ @ @ @ @ academicians , we ’ re so worried about our ranking and what tradition we ’ re going be promoting vis-à-vis other traditions intellectually that we can ’ t dig deep inside of our own selves and give of ourselves in such a way that our fellow citizens will look at an intellectual and say , my God , I need that intellectual the way my mother needed Louis Armstrong .
So part of this is on the intellectuals themselves , to step out of purely ivory tower concerns and adopt more of a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are steeped in the American tradition of pragmatism in philosophy , which really tries to focus on the social , cultural , and economic concerns , not just more abstract epistemology and metaphysics .
But you ’ re also steeped in so many other different philosophical schools like existentialism and Marxism .
I ’ m curious which philosophy you think has the most value to offer us all right now .
I think we have to be jazz men and jazz women .
We have to be improvisational .
We have to recognize @ @ @ @ @ @ @ play , the academy has its role to play , but there ’ s a whole host of other dimensions that have their role to play .
See , I believe in engaging the public .
I think it ’ s no accident that when you look at Ralph Waldo Emerson , he is the great Democratic public intellectual of the 19th century , and he is the godfather of the American pragmatism that you talked about , that I tried to talk about 30-some years ago in American Evasion of Philosophy .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ hold up as the philosophy has the most to offer us right now ?
No , because pragmatism has its blind spots .
When you ’ re jazz-like , none of these schools ever provide enough .
They all fall short .
You need existentialism because you ’ ve got to deal with death , dread , despair , and disappointment .
You don ’ t get that from pragmatists .
John Dewey on death ?
Don ’ t hold your breath !
Marxism is indispensable as an analysis of capital , but @ @ @ @ @ @ @ when your mama dies ?
” Karl don ’ t have too much to say about that !
Every school of thought has its own limitations .
And the question becomes accenting the best in each one .
Well , existentialism really emphasizes that it ’ s up to each of us to make choices and take responsibility for our lives , to make our own meaning in a world that doesn ’ t come with meaning inherent in it .
What do you think that that philosophy can teach us about how @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , the first great Black literary figure that the white mainstream had to take notice of , was an existentialist at a very deep level .
And for him , it was always about digging deep and finding out who you are , manifested in the choices that you make , and then owning those choices .
Being responsible , being accountable .
It ’ s the exact opposite of what you see when you look at a neo-gangster like Trump .
He thinks he can live his whole life with no answerability @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and get away with it .
So existentialism at its best reminds us : responsibility , accountability , answerability at the center .
Do you think that responsibility in our current situation is inevitably going to have to do with solidarity , both in terms of social distancing to prevent the pandemic from spreading , and in terms of solidarity of protest , maybe allyship between non-Black Americans and Black Americans ?
Oh , absolutely .
You have to have solidarity all the way down .
And for me , it ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ m not sure I like the language of allies .
Was John Brown an ally for the Black Freedom Movement ?
The brother gave his life and his sons .
Calling him an ally kind of belittles his sacrifice .
Rabbi [ Abraham Joshua ] Heschel was not an ally to Martin Luther King Jr .
They were two brothers , one from the Jewish tradition , the other from a Black church tradition .
They came together as human beings in the name of integrity , honesty , decency .
Heschel says @ @ @ @ @ @ @ human being , and I understand that in my Jewish tradition to be decent is to be in solidarity with people who are suffering .
Not just Black .
Could be indigenous people .
Could be the goyim .
Whoever it is .
It ’ s a human decision that you ’ re making .
It sounds like you really believe in the power of broad coalitions .
Let me ask you this , though .
Is the pandemic weakening or strengthening white supremacy ?
It ’ s both .
On the one @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ugly the combination of predatory capitalism driven by Wall Street greed and the collapse of so much of civic life is .
And so people are not just polarized , they ’ re also gangsterized .
Well , one of the long traditions in America is , if you ’ re going to join a gang for protection , white supremacy is waiting for you .
And so we see an increase of white supremacist activity .
The white supremacy being decreased is this just beautiful , majestic , marvelous militancy of brothers @ @ @ @ @ @ @ young brothers and sisters .
And more and more largely vanilla .
They have been Afro-Americanized by the music that they listen to .
They ’ ve also awakened in terms of the lies that their parents have told them about America , about Black people and so forth .
We ’ ve got both happening simultaneously .
And that ’ s what makes our turbulent times such fascinating times to live in .
One profound feature of our culture is this libertarian strain in American thought , this focus on individual freedoms @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that hampered our pandemic response , in terms of people refusing to wear masks and all that ?
It ’ s Janus-faced .
It ’ s a good thing and it ’ s a bad thing .
You can see the relation between certain Emersonian strands of being nonconformist and a deep distrust of the elites because they might be lying to you .
But you have to be discerning .
If the elites tell you the Earth is flat and you ’ re distrustful , then that can be a good thing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s round and you ’ re distrustful , you ’ ve got to back off because the evidence is overwhelming , right ?
So it can go either way .
I have strong libertarian inclinations .
That ’ s why I believe that Rush Limbaugh , he ’ s got a right to be wrong .
I fight for his right to be wrong .
Libertarian sensibilities , I think , can be very important .
Strong support of civil liberties is crucial .
But when it takes the form of I don @ @ @ @ @ @ @ don ’ t believe the CDC , and so forth — well , no , there ’ s evidence here .
Libertarianism can ’ t just go off into fantasy .
You ’ ve got to be tied to certain kinds of evidential forms of credibility .
In the wake of the pandemic and the protests , a lot of people are wondering how we can make lasting , substantive progress in this country .
How do we make it so that the US doesn ’ t just return to status quo around @ @ @ @ @ @ @ We have yet to have a serious discussion of what the status quo was .
We haven ’ t had a discussion about the Obama administration .
The Obama administration looks so wonderful in contrast to the neo-fascist gangster in the White House .
But it was not wonderful at all .
Not in terms of the bailout — Wall Street made big money .
The child poverty rate was still high .
Still dropping drones in Afghanistan .
Yes , Obama was better , but better in relation to what ?
It @ @ @ @ @ @ @ if we want to see lasting change of the status quo , we first have to really interrogate what was that status quo all along .
And that might mean getting into some , as John Lewis would say , “ good trouble , necessary trouble , ” by questioning even those on the left .
Let ’ s close by talking about the importance of hope versus optimism .
You define optimism as rational and evidence-based , whereas for you , hope is an act of courage and imagination that looks beyond @ @ @ @ @ @ @ can expect .
So for you , what roles do hope and optimism play in this situation , where the pandemic requires an emphasis on evidence , but so much feels unknowable and demands this very high level of hope from us ?
Well , we must accent the crucial role that science must play .
Scientific temperament , not just scientific method , because the method can become dogmatic , too .
But the temperament is forever Socratic , forever questioning .
So science must play a fundamental role .
But there @ @ @ @ @ @ @ relatively helpless about .
And that has to do with the meaning of life .
Why is there something rather than nothing ?
Why not commit suicide tomorrow ?
Why do you love in this way ?
Why are you so attached to your mama when you know she ’ s wrong on so many issues , but you ’ d take a bullet for her in a heartbeat ?
You don ’ t measure your mama based on scientific evidence .
It ’ s visceral , it ’ s not just cerebral @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to acknowledge the roles that each one of these play .
Optimism for me has never been an option .
Because there ’ s too much suffering in the world .
Think of all the African bones and bodies at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean with the slave trade .
And Jewish brothers and sisters in the concentration camps .
And Dalits in India .
None of that can generate an optimism for me , ever .
But hope is something else , you see , because hope is not spectatorial .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ re already in the mess .
You ’ re in the funk .
What are you going to do ?
Hope is a verb as much as a virtue .
Hope is as much a consequence of your action as it is a source of your action , as Roberto Unger always said .
So that hope is something that you find in your immersion .
And you decide you ’ re going to fight till the end .
No matter what .
When you say hope is also a “ consequence of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that by choosing to act now in this incredibly stressful time with integrity , with accountability , with responsibility , our actions themselves can nurture and fuel hope in us ?
That ’ s eloquently put .
That ’ s exactly right .
Hope is about everybody trying to contribute to the push , the motion , the momentum , the movement for something bigger than them that ’ s better .
The good , the beautiful .
If you ’ re not in motion , you ’ re a spectator .
Well @ @ @ @ @ @ @ me like you ’ re being a spectator these days .
You and Professor Tricia Rose have a new podcast , The Tight Rope .
That ’ s true .
It ’ s truth-telling , witness-bearing , justice-seeking — but also joy , because there ’ s joy in what we do .
You got to find joy in spreading hesed .
If it ’ s always just a negative burden , you ’ re not going to be a long-distance runner .
No , we ’ re talking about a joy that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , until the worms get your body .
And this particular podcast is an attempt to broaden the discourse , get beyond the two-party dialogue , get beyond the liberal versus conservative — but also keep track of the centrality of the arts , the moral , the spiritual , the beautiful .
We need to lift each other up .
Sign up for the Future Perfect newsletter and we ’ ll send you a roundup of ideas and solutions for tackling the world ’ s biggest challenges — and how to get @ @ @ @ @

Since this summer’s racial justice protests began filling the streets, the one public figure I’ve wanted to talk to more than anyone else is Cornel West.
A professor of the Practice of Public Philosophy at Harvard, he’s one of the most prominent and provocative Black intellectuals alive. He’s known for calling out racism, predatory capitalism, and unjust policies wherever he sees them. And judging by his new podcast, The Tight Rope (co-hosted by Tricia Rose), I was sure he’d have a sharp analysis of the twin epidemics pummeling America today: white supremacy and Covid-19.
So I was thrilled when West agreed to come on Future Perfect’s limited-series podcast, The Way Through, which is all about mining the world’s rich philosophical and spiritual traditions for guidance that can help us through these challenging times.
West and I talked about some potential tools for dealing with white supremacy and Covid-19. We discussed Black liberation theology, which took off in the 1960s and emphasized that God’s primary concern is for people who are being oppressed. West is a Christian who’s steeped in that theology.
But West is also steeped in a bunch of secular philosophical traditions — from Marxism to existentialism to pragmatism — so I asked him what those traditions can teach us about how to handle our current crises.
We covered questions like: Is the pandemic weakening or strengthening white supremacy? What’s the difference between optimism and hope — and why does West say he’s not optimistic but is hopeful?
By the end of this talk, I felt more hopeful myself. You can hear our full conversation in the podcast here. A partial transcript, edited for length and clarity, follows.
Subscribe to Future Perfect: The Way Through on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Sigal Samuel
Dr. West, we’ve been through some really hard months. How would you diagnose the crisis that we see convulsing American life?
Cornel West
You’ve got an empire that is experiencing spiritual decay and moral decline driven by greed, especially in high places, and hate being used as a divisive way of pitting citizens against one another. And then you’ve got corruption — not just in the White House, but corruption really throughout our institutions.
So then when the pandemic hit, we began to see just the raw reality of the empire and the indifference towards the vulnerable. You began to see the health care system and all of its frailty, which my dear brother Bernie Sanders was pointing out with such courage just a few months ago during the campaign. You began to see the wealth inequality, the white supremacy, the male supremacy that the Me Too movement pointed out. You began to see the ways in which precious trans people are devalued, and gays and lesbians are dishonored. You just began to see the ugliness.
But you also see resilience. People in the streets. People waking up. Some people even recognizing, lo and behold, America is an empire! It’s not just a democratic experiment. It’s a democratic experiment against the backdrop of imperial expansion, especially a dispossession of land of indigenous peoples, the enslavement of Africans, white brothers who are working with no property — these chickens are all coming home to roost at the same time.
That’s what I meant when I said we are witnessing America as a failed social experiment. Our conception of ourselves as being so exceptional is being shattered. Our conception of ourselves as somehow being innocent is being radically called into question.
Sigal Samuel
There are different faith traditions and philosophies we can draw on for wisdom in a moment like this. Let’s start by talking about Black liberation theology, which drew on the thought of Martin Luther King Jr., Malcolm X, and others. Your friend Dr. James Cone, the theologian who founded Black liberation theology in the 1960s, described this theology as an interpretation of the Christian gospel from the perspectives of people who were at the bottom in society, the lowest racial and economic groups. And he encouraged Americans to reimagine Jesus as black. He drew parallels between the crucifixion of Jesus and the lynching of black Americans.
So talk to me about Black liberation theology and the role you think it can play in today’s fight for racial justice. Can it provide the spiritual scaffolding for this movement?
Cornel West
It can certainly be one dimension in the leaven in the loaf. In the Democratic loaf.
I think in order to understand Jim Cone, we’ve got to go back to Hebrew scripture, because Hebrew scripture itself was one of the great moments in the moral evolution of the species. Unlike the Greeks, unlike empires and dynasties, Hebrew scripture comes along and says to be human is to spread hesed — steadfast love, lovingkindness — to the orphan, the widow, the motherless, the fatherless, the poor, the persecuted, the oppressed. And that I am going to be a God of the oppressed, of a hated people, a haunted people, of Jews under vicious domination and oppression. But I make a covenant with you: Do justly. Love mercy. Walk humbly with thy God.
Jesus comes right out of that prophetic Judaism that was at work in that covenant.
James Cone then comes along in the most barbaric century, the 20th century. Hundreds of millions of folks killed by Hitler, Stalin, European colonialism. Cone comes along and says, lo and behold, there is also an oppressed people in the midst of the American empire who have made a covenant with a God, who have fallen in love with a Palestinian Jew named Jesus.
And this Jesus, when he makes his way from Galilee into Jerusalem, what does he do? He weeps for Jerusalem. And he runs the money changers out of the temple.
Serious business. You don’t see that on the walls of churches. No, not that Jesus. No, you get a domesticated, deodorized Jesus. That’s the Constantinian Christianity that becomes Christianity as a state religion. But the Jesus that Cone is talking about is running out the greedy, the indifferent, the callous, the powerful who are using their wealth and power to oppress poor people.
He says, now look at it from the vantage point of African slaves in the United States. Look at it from the vantage point of Negroes under Jim Crow. Look at it from the vantage point of Black folk under the new Jim Crow.
Sigal Samuel
You have a very class-conscious race analysis compared to a lot of mainstream intellectuals, including Black intellectuals. Do you think the current protest movement is spending enough time talking about class?
Cornel West
Well, it depends on who you talk to, my dear sister. Anytime I get a chance to speak, I always make the connection between police power and police murder on the one hand with Wall Street power and Wall Street crimes on the other. So that you get the connection between white supremacy on the ground, and predatory capitalism, especially the financial services class, especially the oligarchs and plutocrats. So I love your question. This class question is in no way a luxury.
Sigal Samuel
You’ve written a lot about what it means to be an intellectual, especially a Black intellectual. But there’s so much anti-expert, anti-intellectual sentiment in the US. So what role do you see for intellectuals now in responding to the pandemic and the protests?
Cornel West
I want to point out that America has always been a profoundly anti-intellectual civilization. Richard Hofstadter pointed this out with great, profound insight in his classic, Anti-Intellectualism in American Life. Remember, there he draws a distinction between intelligence and intellect. He says Americans love intelligence because it’s a manipulative function that allows them to do well, especially in the marketplace. Intelligence is something to be used as a calculating orientation, to make discerning insights to make more money for upward mobility, for the American dream.
Intellect is an interrogation of the most basic assumptions and presuppositions. So intelligence makes immediate evaluations, intellect evaluates the evaluations. That’s how Hofstadter puts it.
There’s never been space in American civilization, in American empire, for serious intellectual presence. Never. That’s why our greatest novelists, like Melville — nobody cares. It is hard for any intellectual to gain a footing.
And of course, for Black intellectuals it becomes even more challenging. Enslaved Africans were not even allowed to learn how to read and write. When we do emerge with the word, the question becomes, can we be as empowering as the musicians? The intellectuals who have been most effective in American culture, it’s been much more the musicians than academicians. Because the musicians have been able to couch stories, narrative, ideas, visions in forms that everyday people in a business civilization can take in and be empowered.
Whereas the academicians, we’re so worried about our ranking and what tradition we’re going be promoting vis-à-vis other traditions intellectually that we can’t dig deep inside of our own selves and give of ourselves in such a way that our fellow citizens will look at an intellectual and say, my God, I need that intellectual the way my mother needed Louis Armstrong.
Sigal Samuel
So part of this is on the intellectuals themselves, to step out of purely ivory tower concerns and adopt more of a pragmatic approach. I know you yourself are steeped in the American tradition of pragmatism in philosophy, which really tries to focus on the social, cultural, and economic concerns, not just more abstract epistemology and metaphysics. But you’re also steeped in so many other different philosophical schools like existentialism and Marxism. I’m curious which philosophy you think has the most value to offer us all right now.
Cornel West
I think we have to be jazz men and jazz women. We have to be improvisational. We have to recognize that the abstract has its role to play, the academy has its role to play, but there’s a whole host of other dimensions that have their role to play.
See, I believe in engaging the public. I think it’s no accident that when you look at Ralph Waldo Emerson, he is the great Democratic public intellectual of the 19th century, and he is the godfather of the American pragmatism that you talked about, that I tried to talk about 30-some years ago in American Evasion of Philosophy.
Sigal Samuel
So is it pragmatism that you would hold up as the philosophy has the most to offer us right now?
Cornel West
No, because pragmatism has its blind spots. When you’re jazz-like, none of these schools ever provide enough. They all fall short. You need existentialism because you’ve got to deal with death, dread, despair, and disappointment. You don’t get that from pragmatists. John Dewey on death? Don’t hold your breath!
Marxism is indispensable as an analysis of capital, but Marxism on “where do you go when your mama dies?” Karl don’t have too much to say about that! Every school of thought has its own limitations. And the question becomes accenting the best in each one.
Sigal Samuel
Well, existentialism really emphasizes that it’s up to each of us to make choices and take responsibility for our lives, to make our own meaning in a world that doesn’t come with meaning inherent in it. What do you think that that philosophy can teach us about how to handle this moment?
Cornel West
Richard Wright, the first great Black literary figure that the white mainstream had to take notice of, was an existentialist at a very deep level. And for him, it was always about digging deep and finding out who you are, manifested in the choices that you make, and then owning those choices. Being responsible, being accountable.
It’s the exact opposite of what you see when you look at a neo-gangster like Trump. He thinks he can live his whole life with no answerability. Say and do anything he wants and get away with it.
So existentialism at its best reminds us: responsibility, accountability, answerability at the center.
Sigal Samuel
Do you think that responsibility in our current situation is inevitably going to have to do with solidarity, both in terms of social distancing to prevent the pandemic from spreading, and in terms of solidarity of protest, maybe allyship between non-Black Americans and Black Americans?
Cornel West
Oh, absolutely. You have to have solidarity all the way down. And for me, it’s just fundamental human solidarity.
I’m not sure I like the language of allies. Was John Brown an ally for the Black Freedom Movement? The brother gave his life and his sons. Calling him an ally kind of belittles his sacrifice. Rabbi [Abraham Joshua] Heschel was not an ally to Martin Luther King Jr. They were two brothers, one from the Jewish tradition, the other from a Black church tradition. They came together as human beings in the name of integrity, honesty, decency. Heschel says, I want to be a decent human being, and I understand that in my Jewish tradition to be decent is to be in solidarity with people who are suffering. Not just Black. Could be indigenous people. Could be the goyim. Whoever it is. It’s a human decision that you’re making.
Sigal Samuel
It sounds like you really believe in the power of broad coalitions. Let me ask you this, though. Is the pandemic weakening or strengthening white supremacy?
Cornel West
It’s both. On the one hand, it is revealing just how ugly the combination of predatory capitalism driven by Wall Street greed and the collapse of so much of civic life is. And so people are not just polarized, they’re also gangsterized. Well, one of the long traditions in America is, if you’re going to join a gang for protection, white supremacy is waiting for you. And so we see an increase of white supremacist activity.
The white supremacy being decreased is this just beautiful, majestic, marvelous militancy of brothers and sisters of all colors, especially young brothers and sisters. And more and more largely vanilla. They have been Afro-Americanized by the music that they listen to. They’ve also awakened in terms of the lies that their parents have told them about America, about Black people and so forth.
We’ve got both happening simultaneously. And that’s what makes our turbulent times such fascinating times to live in.
Sigal Samuel
One profound feature of our culture is this libertarian strain in American thought, this focus on individual freedoms, liberties, and autonomies. Has that hampered our pandemic response, in terms of people refusing to wear masks and all that?
Cornel West
It’s Janus-faced. It’s a good thing and it’s a bad thing. You can see the relation between certain Emersonian strands of being nonconformist and a deep distrust of the elites because they might be lying to you. But you have to be discerning. If the elites tell you the Earth is flat and you’re distrustful, then that can be a good thing. If they tell you it’s round and you’re distrustful, you’ve got to back off because the evidence is overwhelming, right? So it can go either way.
I have strong libertarian inclinations. That’s why I believe that Rush Limbaugh, he’s got a right to be wrong. I fight for his right to be wrong. Libertarian sensibilities, I think, can be very important. Strong support of civil liberties is crucial.
But when it takes the form of I don’t believe Dr. Fauci, I don’t believe the CDC, and so forth — well, no, there’s evidence here. Libertarianism can’t just go off into fantasy. You’ve got to be tied to certain kinds of evidential forms of credibility.
Sigal Samuel
In the wake of the pandemic and the protests, a lot of people are wondering how we can make lasting, substantive progress in this country. How do we make it so that the US doesn’t just return to status quo around race in a year from now?
Cornel West
We have yet to have a serious discussion of what the status quo was. We haven’t had a discussion about the Obama administration. The Obama administration looks so wonderful in contrast to the neo-fascist gangster in the White House. But it was not wonderful at all. Not in terms of the bailout — Wall Street made big money. The child poverty rate was still high. Still dropping drones in Afghanistan.
Yes, Obama was better, but better in relation to what?
Sigal Samuel
It sounds like you’re saying that if we want to see lasting change of the status quo, we first have to really interrogate what was that status quo all along. And that might mean getting into some, as John Lewis would say, “good trouble, necessary trouble,” by questioning even those on the left.
Cornel West
And questioning ourselves.
Sigal Samuel
Let’s close by talking about the importance of hope versus optimism. You define optimism as rational and evidence-based, whereas for you, hope is an act of courage and imagination that looks beyond what the existing circumstances tell us we can expect. So for you, what roles do hope and optimism play in this situation, where the pandemic requires an emphasis on evidence, but so much feels unknowable and demands this very high level of hope from us?
Cornel West
Well, we must accent the crucial role that science must play. Scientific temperament, not just scientific method, because the method can become dogmatic, too. But the temperament is forever Socratic, forever questioning. So science must play a fundamental role. But there are certain issues that science itself is relatively helpless about.
And that has to do with the meaning of life. Why is there something rather than nothing? Why not commit suicide tomorrow? Why do you love in this way? Why are you so attached to your mama when you know she’s wrong on so many issues, but you’d take a bullet for her in a heartbeat? You don’t measure your mama based on scientific evidence. It’s visceral, it’s not just cerebral. So we have to be able to acknowledge the roles that each one of these play.
Optimism for me has never been an option. Because there’s too much suffering in the world. Think of all the African bones and bodies at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean with the slave trade. And Jewish brothers and sisters in the concentration camps. And Dalits in India. None of that can generate an optimism for me, ever.
But hope is something else, you see, because hope is not spectatorial. It’s participatory. You’re already in the mess. You’re in the funk. What are you going to do? Hope is a verb as much as a virtue. Hope is as much a consequence of your action as it is a source of your action, as Roberto Unger always said. So that hope is something that you find in your immersion. And you decide you’re going to fight till the end. No matter what.
Sigal Samuel
When you say hope is also a “consequence of your action,” do you mean that by choosing to act now in this incredibly stressful time with integrity, with accountability, with responsibility, our actions themselves can nurture and fuel hope in us?
Cornel West
That’s eloquently put. That’s exactly right. Hope is about everybody trying to contribute to the push, the motion, the momentum, the movement for something bigger than them that’s better. The good, the beautiful. If you’re not in motion, you’re a spectator.
Sigal Samuel
Well, it doesn’t seem to me like you’re being a spectator these days. You and Professor Tricia Rose have a new podcast, The Tight Rope.
Cornel West
That’s true. It’s truth-telling, witness-bearing, justice-seeking — but also joy, because there’s joy in what we do. You got to find joy in spreading hesed. If it’s always just a negative burden, you’re not going to be a long-distance runner. No, we’re talking about a joy that will sustain you over against the grain, until the worms get your body.
And this particular podcast is an attempt to broaden the discourse, get beyond the two-party dialogue, get beyond the liberal versus conservative — but also keep track of the centrality of the arts, the moral, the spiritual, the beautiful. We need to lift each other up.
Sign up for the Future Perfect newsletter and we’ll send you a roundup of ideas and solutions for tackling the world’s biggest challenges — and how to get better at doing good.


vox--2020-07-29--NASA’s latest rover is our best chance yet to find life on Mars

On Thursday , at 7:50 am Eastern , if the weather cooperates , NASA will launch its fifth rover to Mars .
If all goes well , the mission may provide a conclusive answer to the question : Has there ever been life on the red planet ?
The rover is called Perseverance , and it ’ s modeled after the Curiosity , which landed on Mars in 2012 .
Like a new-model-year car , Perseverance comes with many upgrades : It can travel faster , farther , and around more obstacles on the Martian surface than Curiosity can .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ resilient wheels .
It has a drone helicopter aboard ( called Ingenuity ) , which will become the first aircraft to fly on another planet .
It even has an experiment designed to generate oxygen out of the Martian atmosphere , as a proof of concept for future rocket fuel factories on the planet .
And like any new piece of engineering these days , it comes with more cameras than the previous model : 23 , compared to Curiosity ’ s 17 .
You can watch the launch livestream below .
The @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on Thursday .
If the launch is canceled Thursday , NASA has a two-week window to reschedule and keep the rover on time for a February landing on Mars .
Previous rover missions have been launched in pursuit of the question : Was Mars ever hospitable to life ?
They found that it was , with water once on the surface and organic chemicals in the environment .
This endeavor is going to go for the ultimate question : Can it find evidence of actual microbial life , frozen in time on the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is going to be the first mission to actually go and directly search for past evidence of life on Mars , ” says Philip Twu , a robotics engineer at NASA ’ s Jet Propulsion Laboratory who helped design Perseverance ’ s autonomous driving system .
This is stuff scientists dream about answering as kids .
And now they can really do it .
How ?
Perseverance is going to drill into Mars and collect samples of rocks that may contain evidence of ancient life .
More audacious , though , is the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ recover those samples from Mars and return them to Earth .
To find out the answer to that epic question — did Mars ever have life ?
— first Perseverance will have to travel through space for seven months to reach the red planet .
Upon arrival to Mars in February , it will have to repeat an exceedingly tricky landing first achieved by Curiosity .
The rover and all its gizmos are too heavy to land on the planet via parachutes alone .
( Mars ’ s atmosphere is thinner than Earth @ @ @ @ @ @ @ parachutes are less effective there . )
It has to be slowed downed with a powered ( i.e.
, rocket ) descent .
When Perseverance is just above the surface , the 2,260-pound rover will be lowered gently from the rocket via what NASA ’ s engineers call a “ sky crane.
” This whole feat is made more impressive by the fact that Perseverance has to land itself .
Mars is far enough away from Earth that any radio signal we send to it takes seven minutes to reach Mars .
That @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in real time .
It has to slow itself down from around 12,000 mph to zero , all while choosing an unobstructed place to land .
Even though Curiosity successfully pulled off this feat in 2012 , “ our hearts will still be beating hard when we get to that point of the mission , ” Matt Wallace , deputy project manager for Perseverance , told reporters at a Tuesday press conference .
This is the most dangerous part of the whole mission , and where it could fail catastrophically .
Once the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ no control over the craft .
Engineers call this landing the “ seven minutes of terror ” because we won ’ t find out if Perseverance has made it safely to the surface until it has landed and sent a radio transmission back to Earth .
( Unlike Curiosity , Perseverance will be able to film its landing , which the public will be able to see at a later date .
That will be rad . )
Looking for signs of ancient life Curiosity landed in Gale Crater , a dried-up ancient @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a location called Jezero Crater , which is an ancient river delta .
The terrain there is a little more treacherous than Gale , but the rewards may be richer .
“ It ’ s going to be a lot more rocks , it ’ s going to be a lot more cliffs , there ’ s going to be a lot more things that are gon na really require a rover to be able to be a lot smarter in the way it drives , ” Twu says .
It all has @ @ @ @ @ @ @ gets stuck or breaks a wheel , there ’ s no Martian equivalent of AAA to tow it .
( As with any Mars missions , many technical malfunctions are possible .
Last year , for instance , a heat probe on NASA ’ s Mars Insight lander got unexpectedly stuck while drilling into the ground . )
But the risk will be worth it .
“ If life ever did exist on Mars , this is the kind of place where that evidence would be preserved , ” Lori Glaze , the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ division , says .
That ’ s because the crater is home to a 3.4 billion-year-old dried-up river delta .
You can see its shape in the image above .
This is an ideal place to look for signs of past life , Tanja Bosak , an MIT geobiologist working on the Perseverance mission , says .
In a river bed , “ there are a lot of clay minerals , and as they settle , they can really just kind of smother anything organic , or they can even absorb organic molecules @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : In the ancient dried clay of the delta , there may be microscopic fossils of microbial life , or geological patterns indicative of life .
( Typically , Bosak studies how microorganisms alter rocks on Earth .
The research she and her colleagues are doing in this area will provide the basis for what rocks to look out for on Mars . )
Once in the delta , Perseverance will use its cameras and various chemical sensors to find the rocks most likely to contain this evidence .
( One of the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ “ Scanning Habitable Environments with Raman & Luminescence for Organics & Chemicals.
” ) Scientists here on Earth will analyze that data and choose several dozen samples for the rover to drill into .
Then the samples will be stored in special tubes inside the rover where they ’ ll be undisturbed .
The most audacious plan , though , is to come .
A future mission — whose date is not yet determined — called the Mars sample return will send a new rover to Mars to collect the samples from a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to Earth on a small rocket .
What type of life might scientists find ?
Once back on Earth , scientists can study the samples extremely precisely and determine whether or not they contain signs of ancient life .
They ’ re not expecting anything more than microbes — bacteria-like , or other single-celled organisms .
This is not a mission to find little green men .
But it still is exciting .
“ These [ Martian ] rocks are older , by half a billion or a billion years , than anything @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have on Earth , ” Bosak says .
Which means we might not only find life on Mars but a form of life older and more primordial than any previously observed on Earth .
When it comes to life on Earth , she says , we can ’ t even ask “ what life was like on Earth at that time.
” The potential life on Mars may give us a better understanding of how life evolved on our own planet .
Of course , the discovery of life on Mars will also @ @ @ @ @ @ @ life originate on Mars separately from Earth ?
Was there a common event that created life on both planets ?
Did life start on one planet and then jump to another via meteorite ?
Scientists won ’ t have these answers right away , but with actual samples from Mars , they can start thinking about them .
( It ’ s also possible these Martian samples show no signs of ancient life . )
“ Is there life in space ?
” is one of the biggest questions that gets kids interested @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to settle for figuring out the answers to smaller questions .
“ You learn to ask questions you can actually answer , ” Bosak says .
Now , in the relatively near future , we might be able to actually answer the big question .
“ This is something that is so unashamedly cool , ” Asad Aboobaker , an engineer who worked on an experimental oxygen generator aboard Perseverance , says .
This is his first Mars mission , and he ’ s just giddy about it .
“ Like , I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ right ?
I mean , it ’ s literally going to go to another planet and land there and it ’ s going to do something that ’ s never been done before.
” It ’ s something hopeful to think about during the pandemic .
The rover was named Perseverance in March after NASA conducted a nationwide essay-writing contest asking students for their ideas .
Back then , the pandemic was not all-encompassing .
Now the name has a new significance for many of the NASA engineers who have had to finish @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in person with increased biohazard safety burdens .
“ The name has taken on a lot of special meaning , ” Glaze says .
“ The team has really had to overcome unbelievable obstacles.
” Every day at Vox , we aim to answer your most important questions and provide you , and our audience around the world , with information that has the power to save lives .
Our mission has never been more vital than it is in this moment : to empower you through understanding .
Vox ’ s work @ @ @ @ @ @ @ but our distinctive brand of explanatory journalism takes resources — particularly during a pandemic and an economic downturn .
Your financial contribution will not constitute a donation , but it will enable our staff to continue to offer free articles , videos , and podcasts at the quality and volume that this moment requires .
Please consider making a contribution to Vox today .

On Thursday, at 7:50 am Eastern, NASA launched its fifth rover to Mars. And with it, started a mission that may provide a conclusive answer to the question: Has there ever been life on the red planet?
The rover is called Perseverance, and it’s modeled after the Curiosity, which landed on Mars in 2012. Like a new-model-year car, Perseverance comes with many upgrades: It can travel faster, farther, and around more obstacles on the Martian surface than Curiosity can. It has improved autonomous driving and more resilient wheels. It has a drone helicopter aboard (called Ingenuity), which will become the first aircraft to fly on another planet.
It even has an experiment designed to generate oxygen out of the Martian atmosphere, as a proof of concept for future rocket fuel factories on the planet.
And like any new piece of engineering these days, it comes with more cameras than the previous model: 23, compared to Curiosity’s 17.
You can watch NASA’s live broadcast of the launch below.
Previous rover missions have been launched in pursuit of the question: Was Mars ever hospitable to life? They found that it was, with water once on the surface and organic chemicals in the environment.
This endeavor is going to go for the ultimate question: Can it find evidence of actual microbial life, frozen in time on the Martian surface?
“This Mars mission is going to be the first mission to actually go and directly search for past evidence of life on Mars,” says Philip Twu, a robotics engineer at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory who helped design Perseverance’s autonomous driving system. This is stuff scientists dream about answering as kids. And now they can really do it.
How? Perseverance is going to drill into Mars and collect samples of rocks that may contain evidence of ancient life. More audacious, though, is the follow-up plan: A future mission will recover those samples from Mars and return them to Earth.
“Seven minutes of terror”
To find out the answer to that epic question — did Mars ever have life? — first Perseverance will have to travel through space for seven months to reach the red planet.
Upon arrival to Mars in February, it will have to repeat an exceedingly tricky landing first achieved by Curiosity. The rover and all its gizmos are too heavy to land on the planet via parachutes alone. (Mars’s atmosphere is thinner than Earth’s to begin with, so parachutes are less effective there.) It has to be slowed downed with a powered (i.e., rocket) descent.
When Perseverance is just above the surface, the 2,260-pound rover will be lowered gently from the rocket via what NASA’s engineers call a “sky crane.”
This whole feat is made more impressive by the fact that Perseverance has to land itself. Mars is far enough away from Earth that any radio signal we send to it takes seven minutes to reach Mars. That means there’s no piloting Perseverance in real time. It has to slow itself down from around 12,000 mph to zero, all while choosing an unobstructed place to land.
Even though Curiosity successfully pulled off this feat in 2012, “our hearts will still be beating hard when we get to that point of the mission,” Matt Wallace, deputy project manager for Perseverance, told reporters at a Tuesday press conference. This is the most dangerous part of the whole mission, and where it could fail catastrophically. Once the landing sequence starts, NASA will have no control over the craft.
Engineers call this landing the “seven minutes of terror” because we won’t find out if Perseverance has made it safely to the surface until it has landed and sent a radio transmission back to Earth. (Unlike Curiosity, Perseverance will be able to film its landing, which the public will be able to see at a later date. That will be rad.)
Looking for signs of ancient life
Curiosity landed in Gale Crater, a dried-up ancient lake bed. Perseverance is going to a location called Jezero Crater, which is an ancient river delta. The terrain there is a little more treacherous than Gale, but the rewards may be richer.
“It’s going to be a lot more rocks, it’s going to be a lot more cliffs, there’s going to be a lot more things that are gonna really require a rover to be able to be a lot smarter in the way it drives,” Twu says. It all has to work perfectly: If the rover gets stuck or breaks a wheel, there’s no Martian equivalent of AAA to tow it. (As with any Mars missions, many technical malfunctions are possible. Last year, for instance, a heat probe on NASA’s Mars Insight lander got unexpectedly stuck while drilling into the ground.)
But the risk will be worth it. “If life ever did exist on Mars, this is the kind of place where that evidence would be preserved,” Lori Glaze, the director of NASA’s planetary science division, says.
That’s because the crater is home to a 3.4 billion-year-old dried-up river delta. You can see its shape in the image above. This is an ideal place to look for signs of past life, Tanja Bosak, an MIT geobiologist working on the Perseverance mission, says.
In a river bed, “there are a lot of clay minerals, and as they settle, they can really just kind of smother anything organic, or they can even absorb organic molecules,” she says. That is: In the ancient dried clay of the delta, there may be microscopic fossils of microbial life, or geological patterns indicative of life. (Typically, Bosak studies how microorganisms alter rocks on Earth. The research she and her colleagues are doing in this area will provide the basis for what rocks to look out for on Mars.)
Once in the delta, Perseverance will use its cameras and various chemical sensors to find the rocks most likely to contain this evidence. (One of the sensors is called SHERLOC, short for “Scanning Habitable Environments with Raman & Luminescence for Organics & Chemicals.”) Scientists here on Earth will analyze that data and choose several dozen samples for the rover to drill into. Then the samples will be stored in special tubes inside the rover where they’ll be undisturbed.
The most audacious plan, though, is to come. A future mission — whose date is not yet determined — called the Mars sample return will send a new rover to Mars to collect the samples from a drop-off point and then launch those back to Earth on a small rocket.
What type of life might scientists find?
Once back on Earth, scientists can study the samples extremely precisely and determine whether or not they contain signs of ancient life.
They’re not expecting anything more than microbes — bacteria-like, or other single-celled organisms. This is not a mission to find little green men.
But it still is exciting. “These [Martian] rocks are older, by half a billion or a billion years, than anything that’s well preserved that we have on Earth,” Bosak says. Which means we might not only find life on Mars but a form of life older and more primordial than any previously observed on Earth. When it comes to life on Earth, she says, we can’t even ask “what life was like on Earth at that time.” The potential life on Mars may give us a better understanding of how life evolved on our own planet.
Of course, the discovery of life on Mars will also provoke epic questions, like: Did life originate on Mars separately from Earth? Was there a common event that created life on both planets? Did life start on one planet and then jump to another via meteorite? Scientists won’t have these answers right away, but with actual samples from Mars, they can start thinking about them. (It’s also possible these Martian samples show no signs of ancient life.)
“Is there life in space?” is one of the biggest questions that gets kids interested in science. But scientists usually have to settle for figuring out the answers to smaller questions. “You learn to ask questions you can actually answer,” Bosak says. Now, in the relatively near future, we might be able to actually answer the big question.
“This is something that is so unashamedly cool,” Asad Aboobaker, an engineer who worked on an experimental oxygen generator aboard Perseverance, says. This is his first Mars mission, and he’s just giddy about it. “Like, I get to send something to Mars, right? I mean, it’s literally going to go to another planet and land there and it’s going to do something that’s never been done before.”
It’s something hopeful to think about during the pandemic. The rover was named Perseverance in March after NASA conducted a nationwide essay-writing contest asking students for their ideas. Back then, the pandemic was not all-encompassing. Now the name has a new significance for many of the NASA engineers who have had to finish out their work from home, or in person with increased biohazard safety burdens. “The name has taken on a lot of special meaning,” Glaze says. “The team has really had to overcome unbelievable obstacles.”