thenation--2020-10-26--Lack of Paid Leave Makes Our Economy So Fragile: A Q&A With Heather Boushey

Heather Boushey is the rare woman at the top of the economic field who also walks the halls of power .
The president and cofounder of the Washington Center for Equitable Growth , a D.C.-based , progressive-leaning economic think tank , in 2016 she was named chief economist for Hillary Clinton ’ s presidential transition team , and this election season , she ’ s been unofficially working with the Biden campaign as one of the Democratic candidate ’ s top economic advisers .
The author of Unbound : How Economic Inequality Constricts Our Economy and What We Can Do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Economics of Work-Life Conflict , Boushey is also a leading voice on issues like paid leave , child care , and economic inequality—issues that have morphed into full-blown crises during the Covid pandemic .
We spoke about the ways she ’ s watched these issues evolve over the last decade and how the pandemic has accelerated calls for change .
ryce overt : You ’ ve been working on paid leave for about a decade , dating back to when you helped craft a social insurance policy that eventually became the Congressional FAMILY @ @ @ @ @ @ @ provide workers with 12 weeks of paid leave for the arrival of a new child , to care for a seriously sick or disabled family member , or to recover from an illness .
Now that ’ s the default Democratic position .
We ’ ve seen more states adopting these policies—some even more expansive than the FAMILY Act—and some Republicans have started talking about paid leave .
What has changed since you first started working on this issue ?
eather oushey : So much has changed .
It has been such a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ working on over the past decade .
Often when I talk to different audiences , people seem frustrated about the ongoing declining union coverage or our failure to raise the federal minimum wage or other issues where there has been less progress .
Paid family leave is a place where we have , over the past decade and a half , actually provided people with a new social insurance benefit in states and here in the District of Columbia .
I went for a jog today in my DC Paid Leave T-shirt , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s exciting that we now finally have this program that just got put in place here .
We also got the Federal Employee Paid Leave Act , which had been in play for over a decade .
There has been a lot of movement because there ’ s that recognition that in order for people to show up at work they need to be able to address their care issues .
If you just had a child , or if you have a sick family member , or you ’ re sick , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and you need that social insurance .
You need that time away , that paid time off to make it work .
Twenty twenty and the pandemic have both underscored how important paid leave is .
Early in the pandemic , I made these five predictions about what it would look like in the United States .
And because we ’ re one of the only countries that doesn ’ t [ guarantee paid leave ] among our economic competitors , that really puts us at a disadvantage .
That felt very dark @ @ @ @ @ @ @ going to be harder for us because we haven ’ t taken care of that .
But then to see the text of the FAMILY Act in that very first piece of [ coronavirus relief ] legislation—it didn ’ t get into the final bill but in the House legislation as they were putting it together—it was exciting to see policy-makers use an idea that was tested .
They knew what it was—they ’ d had hearings on it ; they ’ d seen it work in states .
And they said , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ need this now.
” BC : What do you think has shifted attitudes about paid leave , child care , and other family supports—among Democrats , and also in the Republican Party ?
HB : One of the moments for me that is so emblematic of how this has shifted is that in 2017 , I participated in a project that was cohosted by the Brookings Institute and the American Enterprise Institute on paid leave .
They had one or two meetings and they decided that when it came to parental leave , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and they should get the same amount .
And it was just like , done .
Not a question , not something to be debated , there was just this widespread agreement .
There was real consensus that at least when it came to parental leave that it was absolutely necessary , everybody needed it , and the details were very much about the design of the system .
Back in the early 1970s , when Nixon proposed a universal child care program , there was this sense of , “ Well , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ then moms will just go to work.
” That is not the conversation that we ’ re having anymore .
So I think those realities have really come to bear on families and the important role that women ’ s and mother ’ s employment plays in family income .
Women working isn ’ t just something that women want to do , although that ’ s super-important .
It ’ s also really important to family economic well-being .
But if you ’ re going to do that , you have to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ care .
BC : You argue that these policies are important for women and their ability to work outside the home , but they ’ re also important for families , and they ’ re important for men .
Do you think policies like paid leave and child care are starting to be recognized as more than “ just ” women ’ s issues and a component of what we need for economic growth ?
And do you think it ’ s significant that we ’ ve seen male candidates like Joe Biden @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is so much evidence that shows that what we need for an economy to thrive is for people to literally be able to get to work and do their job .
And you need someone to provide care , otherwise people can not get to work and get their jobs .
That is the lesson of 2020 .
If people can not get to work , then huge parts of the economy flounder .
You can see that all around us .
The fact that schools are closed and day cares are closed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ t get to work .
Folks who are telecommuting from home are struggling with kids showing up on their Zoom calls .
As we have this aging population , it is actually men who are oftentimes now taking on more of the responsibility .
Not as much perhaps as their female partners , their wives and sisters , might want .
But they are taking on the responsibility for their aging parents .
There ’ s also all of this evidence that engagement of dads in those first years of life are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ well-being , for family cohesion , and for the ability of women to be full participants in the labor force .
All of which is good for short and long term productivity and economic growth .
All of these things go together .
It has been very exciting to see male politicians taking on these issues and moving forward with them .
It ’ s of course been exciting to see Vice President Biden make the care economy a core plank of his Build Back Better plan .
It was very exciting to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ talking about paid leave , really making the case that this is a win-win policy .
It makes good business sense , and it ’ s been exciting to see not only women leaders but male leaders on both sides of the aisle taking up the mantle on this .
BC : A big plank of Joe Biden ’ s plan was elder care .
That issue hasn ’ t gotten the same amount of attention as paid leave for a new child or child care .
Is this a policy area that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ campaign trail , in Congress , in the White House ?
Is this something we need to be talking more about ?
HB : I think it ’ s very important and I do think we should be talking more about it .
It ’ s a hard issue to talk about , though , because we ’ re talking about aging loved ones who need help .
It ’ s not the new birth and the glow of that new life and the time off to bond with that new child who @ @ @ @ @ @ @ become independent .
It ’ s how do we help make sure that folks at the other end of life , or who might be sick , have the care and the time they need .
It ’ s the harder side of the care economy .
It can also be very expensive and it has to be very personalized .
So it ’ s everything from the aging woman who fell down and broke her hip who needs some care in her home after recuperating in some sort of facility , but @ @ @ @ @ @ @ her feet , literally , to folks that have dementia or other kinds of needs that might be more long lasting .
Some folks may need in-home care , some folks may need more help covering nursing care .
And the reality is that we don ’ t have social insurance programs that help families deal with this .
We don ’ t have a robust enough system of home health aides to help people age in place or to deal with setbacks in place so that they can recover and then be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ their friends and their churches and be close to their families .
And for folks that need to go into , or that choose to go into , nursing homes , that can be incredibly expensive .
Medicare doesn ’ t cover it and we don ’ t have effective long-term care insurance nationwide .
There ’ s a lot of big issues there that make it quite challenging .
BC : You ’ ve been fighting for policies that support caregiving and for other efforts to tackle economic inequalities your entire career @ @ @ @ @ @ @ exacerbated these inequalities ?
What might that mean moving forward ?
HB : Twenty twenty has unmasked fragilities across our economy and our society .
In many ways , it ’ s shown us what inequality means .
We say this word “ inequality , ” but it ’ s abstract .
But 2020 has shown us if you ’ re in a job where you don ’ t have the right to stay home if you ’ re sick you are more vulnerable to an infectious disease .
Or you ’ ve @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you can ’ t afford to stay home and quarantine because you might lose your job or a day ’ s pay or a week ’ s pay .
That ’ s inequality .
Workers at the high end of the income distribution have paid sick days ; workers at the bottom don ’ t .
Access to paid family and medical leave—again , workers at the top have that ; workers in the states that passed paid family leave have some of those benefits .
But workers at the lower end of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ those benefits .
That ’ s what inequality looks like .
Do you have the right to bargain about those issues on the job ?
Folks are less likely today than 10 , 20 , 30 years ago to be in a union .
And what that looks like is that then they don ’ t have the right to bargain over protective gear or paid leave .
The Pandemic Sent Americans ’ Health Care Coverage Into Free Fall For the First Time Ever , the House Has Passed the Pregnant Workers Fairness @ @ @ @ @ @ @ fragile the system is and how vulnerable so many people are .
The thing about a pandemic is that we ’ re all vulnerable if we can not contain it .
As long as everyone is not able to be protected , to stay home when they ’ re sick , have health care , we are not going to be able to have everyone be safe .
I know if I go into a grocery store that doesn ’ t give people paid sick days , I am more likely to get @ @ @ @ @ @ @ drags down growth in productivity and it makes us all vulnerable .
That basic understanding is so visceral for so many .
People understand , notwithstanding some of the protests , why we need to wear masks .
People have been in favor of the relief that gives people those supports .
For years we ’ ve been talking about these policies to address work-life conflict as though they were just about a moment in time or something like a perk .
What 2020 shows us is that this is fundamental .
And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ competitiveness .
BC : There were a lot of economists and other thinkers who felt like we did not respond in a robust enough way to the Great Recession on a variety of fronts .
Now we ’ re facing another recession caused by the pandemic .
What lessons did we learn from the Great Recession that should be applied to our current situation ?
What do we take from the last time to do it better this time ?
HB : Go big or go home .
[ Laughs ] One of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ from that recession is that we did not get many bites at the apple .
So we need to really carefully craft legislation to make sure that we ’ re actually solving the problem .
Automatic stabilizers [ government programs on which spending increases whenever need increases , like food stamps and unemployment benefits , without requiring a vote in Congress ] —we weren ’ t able to do that in the years of the Great Recession .
We weren ’ t able to fix the unemployment insurance system .
And here we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , leaving many communities not able to get benefits out fast enough , not able to change the amount of benefits in a quick way .
It ’ s not robust [ enough ] for the crises .
We need to not only extend benefits but make sure that we ’ re fixing the system so that it can be there for the long haul rather than setting that aside for a different day .
The other thing that we learned from the Great Recession is that having a plan , having policies @ @ @ @ @ @ @ understand , that they ’ ve seen put into place somewhere or they ’ ve had an opportunity to think about , can be so effective in getting things across the finish line .
There has been a lot of activity over the course of 2020 to understand the problems , to identify them , and to identify solutions .
You can see policy-makers across the country coming up with ideas , doing hearings , and passing things .
Saying , we ’ re figuring out what we need to do and we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ done before .
So you have a lot more runway in many ways than we had in January of 2009 .

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Heather Boushey is the rare woman at the top of the economic field who also walks the halls of power. The president and cofounder of the Washington Center for Equitable Growth, a D.C.-based, progressive-leaning economic think tank, in 2016 she was named chief economist for Hillary Clinton’s presidential transition team, and this election season, she’s been unofficially working with the Biden campaign as one of the Democratic candidate’s top economic advisers. The author of Unbound: How Economic Inequality Constricts Our Economy and What We Can Do About It and Finding Time: The Economics of Work-Life Conflict, Boushey is also a leading voice on issues like paid leave, child care, and economic inequality—issues that have morphed into full-blown crises during the Covid pandemic. We spoke about the ways she’s watched these issues evolve over the last decade and how the pandemic has accelerated calls for change.
—Bryce Covert
B ryce C overt: You’ve been working on paid leave for about a decade, dating back to when you helped craft a social insurance policy that eventually became the Congressional FAMILY Act, a national program that would provide workers with 12 weeks of paid leave for the arrival of a new child, to care for a seriously sick or disabled family member, or to recover from an illness. Now that’s the default Democratic position. We’ve seen more states adopting these policies—some even more expansive than the FAMILY Act—and some Republicans have started talking about paid leave. What has changed since you first started working on this issue?
H eather B oushey: So much has changed. It has been such a bright area of labor policy to be working on over the past decade. Often when I talk to different audiences, people seem frustrated about the ongoing declining union coverage or our failure to raise the federal minimum wage or other issues where there has been less progress. Paid family leave is a place where we have, over the past decade and a half, actually provided people with a new social insurance benefit in states and here in the District of Columbia. I went for a jog today in my DC Paid Leave T-shirt, which I often do. It’s exciting that we now finally have this program that just got put in place here. We also got the Federal Employee Paid Leave Act, which had been in play for over a decade.
There has been a lot of movement because there’s that recognition that in order for people to show up at work they need to be able to address their care issues. If you just had a child, or if you have a sick family member, or you’re sick, you can’t be at work and you need that social insurance. You need that time away, that paid time off to make it work.
Twenty twenty and the pandemic have both underscored how important paid leave is. Early in the pandemic, I made these five predictions about what it would look like in the United States. And because we’re one of the only countries that doesn’t [guarantee paid leave] among our economic competitors, that really puts us at a disadvantage. That felt very dark for me, realizing this crisis is going to be harder for us because we haven’t taken care of that. Popular "swipe left below to view more authors"Swipe → The Evisceration of a Public University The Evisceration of a Public University Lisa M. Corrigan The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks Chris Lehmann “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash Dave Zirin How the “Brooks Brothers Riot” Set the Stage for Insurrection How the “Brooks Brothers Riot” Set the Stage for Insurrection Chris Lehmann Popular "swipe left below to view more authors"Swipe → The Evisceration of a Public University The Evisceration of a Public University Lisa M. Corrigan The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks Chris Lehmann “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash Dave Zirin How the “Brooks Brothers Riot” Set the Stage for Insurrection How the “Brooks Brothers Riot” Set the Stage for Insurrection Chris Lehmann
But then to see the text of the FAMILY Act in that very first piece of [coronavirus relief] legislation—it didn’t get into the final bill but in the House legislation as they were putting it together—it was exciting to see policy-makers use an idea that was tested. They knew what it was—they’d had hearings on it; they’d seen it work in states. And they said, ”We need this, and we need this now.” Current Issue View our current issue
BC: What do you think has shifted attitudes about paid leave, child care, and other family supports—among Democrats, and also in the Republican Party?
HB: One of the moments for me that is so emblematic of how this has shifted is that in 2017, I participated in a project that was cohosted by the Brookings Institute and the American Enterprise Institute on paid leave. They had one or two meetings and they decided that when it came to parental leave, men and women should both get it and they should get the same amount. And it was just like, done. Not a question, not something to be debated, there was just this widespread agreement. There was real consensus that at least when it came to parental leave that it was absolutely necessary, everybody needed it, and the details were very much about the design of the system.
Back in the early 1970s, when Nixon proposed a universal child care program, there was this sense of, “Well, we can’t do that because then moms will just go to work.” That is not the conversation that we’re having anymore. So I think those realities have really come to bear on families and the important role that women’s and mother’s employment plays in family income.
Women working isn’t just something that women want to do, although that’s super-important. It’s also really important to family economic well-being. But if you’re going to do that, you have to address this stress that families face around care.
BC: You argue that these policies are important for women and their ability to work outside the home, but they’re also important for families, and they’re important for men. Do you think policies like paid leave and child care are starting to be recognized as more than “just” women’s issues and a component of what we need for economic growth? And do you think it’s significant that we’ve seen male candidates like Joe Biden taking them up?
HB: There is so much evidence that shows that what we need for an economy to thrive is for people to literally be able to get to work and do their job. And you need someone to provide care, otherwise people cannot get to work and get their jobs. That is the lesson of 2020. If people cannot get to work, then huge parts of the economy flounder. You can see that all around us. The fact that schools are closed and day cares are closed, it means that essential workers can’t get to work. Folks who are telecommuting from home are struggling with kids showing up on their Zoom calls.
As we have this aging population, it is actually men who are oftentimes now taking on more of the responsibility. Not as much perhaps as their female partners, their wives and sisters, might want. But they are taking on the responsibility for their aging parents. There’s also all of this evidence that engagement of dads in those first years of life are so important, for children’s well-being, for family cohesion, and for the ability of women to be full participants in the labor force. All of which is good for short and long term productivity and economic growth. All of these things go together.
It has been very exciting to see male politicians taking on these issues and moving forward with them. It’s of course been exciting to see Vice President Biden make the care economy a core plank of his Build Back Better plan. It was very exciting to see Marco Rubio over the past years talking about paid leave, really making the case that this is a win-win policy. It makes good business sense, and it’s been exciting to see not only women leaders but male leaders on both sides of the aisle taking up the mantle on this.
BC: A big plank of Joe Biden’s plan was elder care. That issue hasn’t gotten the same amount of attention as paid leave for a new child or child care. Is this a policy area that should be getting more attention on the campaign trail, in Congress, in the White House? Is this something we need to be talking more about?
HB: I think it’s very important and I do think we should be talking more about it. It’s a hard issue to talk about, though, because we’re talking about aging loved ones who need help. It’s not the new birth and the glow of that new life and the time off to bond with that new child who’s going to grow up and become independent. It’s how do we help make sure that folks at the other end of life, or who might be sick, have the care and the time they need. It’s the harder side of the care economy.
It can also be very expensive and it has to be very personalized. So it’s everything from the aging woman who fell down and broke her hip who needs some care in her home after recuperating in some sort of facility, but needs help to just get back on her feet, literally, to folks that have dementia or other kinds of needs that might be more long lasting. Some folks may need in-home care, some folks may need more help covering nursing care. And the reality is that we don’t have social insurance programs that help families deal with this. We don’t have a robust enough system of home health aides to help people age in place or to deal with setbacks in place so that they can recover and then be able to stay in their communities with their friends and their churches and be close to their families. And for folks that need to go into, or that choose to go into, nursing homes, that can be incredibly expensive. Medicare doesn’t cover it and we don’t have effective long-term care insurance nationwide. There’s a lot of big issues there that make it quite challenging.
BC: You’ve been fighting for policies that support caregiving and for other efforts to tackle economic inequalities your entire career. How has the pandemic highlighted and exacerbated these inequalities? What might that mean moving forward?
HB: Twenty twenty has unmasked fragilities across our economy and our society. In many ways, it’s shown us what inequality means. We say this word “inequality,” but it’s abstract. But 2020 has shown us if you’re in a job where you don’t have the right to stay home if you’re sick you are more vulnerable to an infectious disease. Or you’ve got a sick family member, but you can’t afford to stay home and quarantine because you might lose your job or a day’s pay or a week’s pay.
That’s inequality. Workers at the high end of the income distribution have paid sick days; workers at the bottom don’t. Access to paid family and medical leave—again, workers at the top have that; workers in the states that passed paid family leave have some of those benefits. But workers at the lower end of the wage distribution tend to not have those benefits. That’s what inequality looks like. Do you have the right to bargain about those issues on the job? Folks are less likely today than 10, 20, 30 years ago to be in a union. And what that looks like is that then they don’t have the right to bargain over protective gear or paid leave. More From Bryce Covert The New Law to Protect Pregnant Workers Is Already Changing Lives August 14, 2023 Finally, the Biden Administration Will Offer Some Relief for Childcare Costs July 11, 2023 One of #MeToo’s Biggest Wins Is About to Be Tested in Court June 13, 2023
This has really shown us how fragile the system is and how vulnerable so many people are. The thing about a pandemic is that we’re all vulnerable if we cannot contain it. As long as everyone is not able to be protected, to stay home when they’re sick, have health care, we are not going to be able to have everyone be safe. I know if I go into a grocery store that doesn’t give people paid sick days, I am more likely to get sick shopping at that store. That drags down growth in productivity and it makes us all vulnerable.
That basic understanding is so visceral for so many. People understand, notwithstanding some of the protests, why we need to wear masks. People have been in favor of the relief that gives people those supports. For years we’ve been talking about these policies to address work-life conflict as though they were just about a moment in time or something like a perk. What 2020 shows us is that this is fundamental. And it’s fundamental to our economic competitiveness.
BC: There were a lot of economists and other thinkers who felt like we did not respond in a robust enough way to the Great Recession on a variety of fronts. Now we’re facing another recession caused by the pandemic. What lessons did we learn from the Great Recession that should be applied to our current situation? What do we take from the last time to do it better this time?
HB: Go big or go home. [Laughs] One of the things that we’ve learned from that recession is that we did not get many bites at the apple. So we need to really carefully craft legislation to make sure that we’re actually solving the problem.
Automatic stabilizers [government programs on which spending increases whenever need increases, like food stamps and unemployment benefits, without requiring a vote in Congress]—we weren’t able to do that in the years of the Great Recession. We weren’t able to fix the unemployment insurance system. And here we are with a system that is failing, leaving many communities not able to get benefits out fast enough, not able to change the amount of benefits in a quick way. It’s not robust [enough] for the crises. We need to not only extend benefits but make sure that we’re fixing the system so that it can be there for the long haul rather than setting that aside for a different day.
The other thing that we learned from the Great Recession is that having a plan, having policies that have been tested, that legislators understand, that they’ve seen put into place somewhere or they’ve had an opportunity to think about, can be so effective in getting things across the finish line. There has been a lot of activity over the course of 2020 to understand the problems, to identify them, and to identify solutions. You can see policy-makers across the country coming up with ideas, doing hearings, and passing things. Saying, we’re figuring out what we need to do and we’re studying what we’ve done before. So you have a lot more runway in many ways than we had in January of 2009.


thenation--2020-10-26--Checking the Systems That Hold Us Back

Checking the Systems That Hold Us Back

Lights are blinking .
Alarms are blaring .
The dashboard of our democracy is warning us that it is time to check our systems .
That ’ s exactly what Melissa Harris-Perry , the Maya Angelou presidential chair at Wake Forest University and a longtime Nation contributor , and Dorian Warren , the president of Community Change and a Nation board member , are setting out to do with their new Nation podcast , System Check .
Unapologetically rooted in Black culture , politics , and intellectual traditions , System Check is a weekly show that asks important questions , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ from unexpected sources .
Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts for new episodes every Friday .
MHP : Do you remember when we met ?
DW : It was 1999 , and we were both attending the American Political Science Association annual meeting in Atlanta .
I was in the midst of my PhD at Yale , and you had just finished up at Duke .
We had a heated discussion about whether it was possible to use the academic field of political science as a justice tool in Black communities .
MHP @ @ @ @ @ @ @ which means our friendship is now old enough to legally drink .
DW : We have been doing that since Day One !
MHP : True !
We have been drinking and talking and writing and arguing for a very long time , which is what has made this friendship such an enjoyable journey .
It is why I am thrilled to be cohosting a new podcast with you .
DW : There ’ s nobody else with whom I ’ d want to cohost System Check .
It ’ s going to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ together layered political analysis , a unique roster of guests , and meaningful cultural connections—all with the freedom that comes with our own unfiltered podcast .
MHP : Of course , even this freedom is relative .
Did we ever get final word about whether we can say “ fucked up ” ?
We are still part of systems with rules .
And those systems are exactly what motivates this new project of ours .
Checking the system is not just an intellectual exercise .
It ’ s about how it feels to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and thrive inside of broken systems .
DW : Wait , are the systems broken ?
Or are they working exactly the way they were designed ?
MHP : Fair point .
We can say our system of criminal punishment accomplishes what it was designed to do : create a permanent Black underclass subject to constant surveillance and control .
DW : Right , and our systems of market-based health care and child care or segregated public schools or monopolistic labor markets are all designed in ways that deepen inequality and limit access @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we can reimagine and redesign systems of freedom .
But this doesn ’ t just happen .
MHP : Right .
We can ’ t forget the long history of these powerful systems being put in check by the very people they were designed to crush .
Ida B .
Wells checked the system of lynching , Fannie Lou Hamer checked the system of disenfranchisement .
John Lewis checked the system of Jim Crow .
DW : The Movement for Black Lives is checking state violence .
The Dreamers are checking an unjust @ @ @ @ @ @ @ checking an inadequate child care system .
Young climate justice activists are checking the rapacious fossil fuel companies .
MHP : Not “ rapacious ” !
You are still such a nerd .
Are you going to use big words on the podcast , too ?
DW : More important than big words , let ’ s commit to finding big ideas , the ideas that help us find a little more freedom , a little more space , a little more humanity within the systems and that allow us to dismantle and—dare @ @ @ @ @ @ @ MHP : I feel like this is where we started 21 years ago—trying to find the big ideas that matter and can be useful .
And the best part is , because we are having this conversation together , I know it will also be a lot of fun .
Subscribe to System Check on Apple Podcasts , Spotify , or wherever you get your podcasts for new episode every Friday .

This article appears in the November 16/23, 2020 issue.
Lights are blinking. Alarms are blaring. The dashboard of our democracy is warning us that it is time to check our systems. That’s exactly what Melissa Harris-Perry, the Maya Angelou presidential chair at Wake Forest University and a longtime Nation contributor, and Dorian Warren, the president of Community Change and a Nation board member, are setting out to do with their new Nation podcast, System Check.
Unapologetically rooted in Black culture, politics, and intellectual traditions, System Check is a weekly show that asks important questions, offers provocative commentary, and welcomes insights from unexpected sources. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts for new episodes every Friday.
MHP: Do you remember when we met?
DW: It was 1999, and we were both attending the American Political Science Association annual meeting in Atlanta. I was in the midst of my PhD at Yale, and you had just finished up at Duke. We had a heated discussion about whether it was possible to use the academic field of political science as a justice tool in Black communities.
MHP: That was 21 years ago, which means our friendship is now old enough to legally drink.
DW: We have been doing that since Day One!
MHP: True! We have been drinking and talking and writing and arguing for a very long time, which is what has made this friendship such an enjoyable journey. It is why I am thrilled to be cohosting a new podcast with you.
DW: There’s nobody else with whom I’d want to cohost System Check. It’s going to do what we do best: bring together layered political analysis, a unique roster of guests, and meaningful cultural connections—all with the freedom that comes with our own unfiltered podcast.
MHP: Of course, even this freedom is relative. Did we ever get final word about whether we can say “fucked up”? We are still part of systems with rules. And those systems are exactly what motivates this new project of ours. Checking the system is not just an intellectual exercise. It’s about how it feels to try to live and breathe and be and thrive inside of broken systems.
DW: Wait, are the systems broken? Or are they working exactly the way they were designed?
MHP: Fair point. We can say our system of criminal punishment accomplishes what it was designed to do: create a permanent Black underclass subject to constant surveillance and control.
DW: Right, and our systems of market-based health care and child care or segregated public schools or monopolistic labor markets are all designed in ways that deepen inequality and limit access. So if inequality is designed, we can reimagine and redesign systems of freedom. But this doesn’t just happen.
MHP: Right. We can’t forget the long history of these powerful systems being put in check by the very people they were designed to crush. Ida B. Wells checked the system of lynching, Fannie Lou Hamer checked the system of disenfranchisement. John Lewis checked the system of Jim Crow.
DW: The Movement for Black Lives is checking state violence. The Dreamers are checking an unjust immigration system. Mothers of color are checking an inadequate child care system. Young climate justice activists are checking the rapacious fossil fuel companies.
MHP: Not “rapacious”! You are still such a nerd. Are you going to use big words on the podcast, too?
DW: More important than big words, let’s commit to finding big ideas, the ideas that help us find a little more freedom, a little more space, a little more humanity within the systems and that allow us to dismantle and—dare I say it?—reconstruct them.
MHP: I feel like this is where we started 21 years ago—trying to find the big ideas that matter and can be useful. And the best part is, because we are having this conversation together, I know it will also be a lot of fun.
Subscribe to System Check on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts for new episode every Friday.


thenation--2020-10-26--Can Georgia’s Jon Ossoff Finish the Job This November?

Georgia Democratic Senate challenger Jon Ossoff raised a whopping $ 21 million in the third quarter , but arguably two of his biggest in-kind contributions came from his opponent , Senator David Perdue .
In late July , Perdue released an ad that enlarged the nose of Ossoff , who is Jewish , and linked him to Senate minority leader Chuck Schumer and big money , which many people understandably saw as anti-Semitic .
( Perdue ’ s campaign first denied the alteration , then blamed it on a vendor . )
Then , last week , he mocked Kamala @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Trump at a Macon rally— “ KAH ’ -mah-lah ?
Kah-MAH ’ -lah ?
Kamala-mala-mala ?
I don ’ t know .
Whatever , ” he joked , to the crowd ’ s cheers .
The nationwide backlash helped raise Ossoff almost $ 2 million in two days .
“ Senator Perdue ’ s intentionally disrespectful mispronunciation of Senator Harris ’ s name is a bigoted and racist tactic straight from President Trump ’ s handbook , ” said Georgia Democratic Party chair Nikema Williams .
“ He owes Georgians an apology for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ he did not apologize ; staffers insisted he meant nothing by it .
As if after almost four years in the Senate together , he couldn ’ t pronounce her name .
Right now all respected polling aggregators list the race as a toss-up , an astonishing setback for Perdue , who beat Democrat Michelle Nunn 53-45 in 2014 and was leading until recently .
But Perdue , the outsourcing business leader who styled himself as an outsider , became a Trump worshipper in 2017—and his fortunes have declined in Georgia with the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ago , rallying with Ivanka Trump , he claimed that Trump ’ s leadership on coronavirus “ saved hundreds of thousands of lives , ” adding , “ Democrats will never give us credit for that.
” Meanwhile , his ads declare him to be dedicated to police reform and protecting Georgians with preexisting conditions ; with Trump sinking in Georgia , he is clearly playing both sides .
It ’ s not working .
Ossoff , an investigative journalist who runs a media company focused on documenting war crimes and corporate abuse @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , jumped onto the national scene when he ran in a 2017 special election to fill Representative Tom Price ’ s suburban Georgia House seat , after Price was tapped by Trump to head the Department of Health and Human Services ( briefly ; he was one of the first Trump picks felled by scandal ) .
Ossoff ’ s candidacy was propelled by the early backing of the late civil rights icon Representative John Lewis , as well as a then-unheard-of anti-Trump mobilization of suburban women , mainly but not exclusively white @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
He almost beat anti-abortion , anti-voting-rights crusader Karen Handel , but got forced into a runoff with her , which he lost narrowly .
Despite his inspiring grassroots support , Ossoff was criticized on the left , outside his district at least , as too cautious and centrist .
Senator Bernie Sanders endorsed him late , and tepidly , although Georgia voting rights crusader ( and almost governor ) Stacey Abrams told me at the time , “ What Jon understands is that being progressive in the South looks different than it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to work with , not just against.
” At the time , and to this day , the “ cautious centrist ” label irks Ossoff .
To combat it , he announced his Senate candidacy in an interview with Ryan Grim in the ( mostly ) left-wing Intercept .
“ Do you think that the fossil fuel and private prison industries and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and every corporate-funded Republican Super PAC in the country spent tens of millions of dollars attacking me [ in 2017 ] because they believed I was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ he asked Grim .
“ They recognized I was a threat to their stranglehold on the legislative process.
” Ossoff is still trying to walk a narrow path : appealing to Georgia ’ s increasingly diverse and progressive Democratic electorate , while still reaching those suburban white voters , mainly women , some of them ex-Republicans , who almost sent him to Congress in 2017 .
He still opposes Medicare for All , for instance , but backs a vast expansion of the Affordable Care Act , including a generous public insurance option @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Got People , Grim called Ossoff ’ s 2017 campaign “ downright radical ” compared to the traditional Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee template .
Via e-mail , Grim told me : “ My point in 2017 was that a Representative Jon Ossoff would never be your obstacle to M4A , even if he ’ s not out there championing it .
You build the mass support , he ’ ll be there , and that ’ s just as true for a Senator Ossoff.
” This year , Ossoff has centered his campaign @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Perdue—the Georgia senator , with a blighted corporate past as CEO of Dollar General , last January bought stock in a personal protective equipment company on the very day he received a private Senate briefing on the impending Covid crisis—and the pandemic itself .
It surged in the summer , thanks to GOP Governor Brian Kemp ’ s premature reopening , and is now surging again .
Ossoff is also benefiting from Abrams ’ s campaign , and her voting rights crusade .
The group she founded , Fair Fight Action , says @ @ @ @ @ @ @ voters since voter registration closed in October 2018—right before Abrams almost won .
There ’ s more than one Senate race in Georgia this year : The retirement of GOP Senator Johnny Isakson has led to a free-for-all special election , in which Republicans Kelly Loeffler ( the Trump-appointed incumbent ) and Representative Doug Collins are trying to out-Trump each other , as Democrat Raphael Warnock , the senior pastor of Atlanta ’ s storied Ebenezer Baptist Church , tries to sneak past them—and seems to be succeeding .
Given Georgia ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ go to January runoffs if no candidate gets more than 50 percent of the vote .
So control of the Senate could easily come down to Georgia .
Stay tuned .
But Ossoff ’ s focus seems to be paying off , and several unforced errors by Perdue are only helping .
National pollsters have moved the race from a “ likely Republican ” win to a “ toss-up ” ; his campaign says its internal polling shows him beating Perdue 50-45 .
The clearest sign of the threat he poses is that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ has spent more to defeat Ossoff than to thwart any other challenger in the country—more than $ 32 million , representing one in every five dollars spent to date , according to The Daily Beast .
Still , Georgia ’ s storied history of voter suppression could stymie him and Warnock—and Joe Biden .
Though early voting is off the charts—2 million Georgians have already cast ballots—there have been lines as long as 10 hours in majority-black counties like DeKalb .
A Vice News investigation found that “ the number of active voters @ @ @ @ @ @ @ four most-populated counties [ including DeKalb ] averaged 3,271 per location , up from 2,402 in 2012 .
By contrast , the statewide average is 2,965 active voters per precinct.
” Ossoff says he fears continued long lines from here through Election Day : “ The people are undeterred , but the state of Georgia continues to disenfranchise its citizens .
And it ’ s a disgrace.
” Our interview , below , has been lightly edited for length and clarity .
oan alsh : So you ’ ve gotten two big assists @ @ @ @ @ @ @ few months : first when he enlarged your nose in that anti-Semitic flyer , and second when he mocked Senator Kamala Harris ’ s name last week .
Why do you think that resonated , in Georgia and nationally ?
Senator Perdue has revealed himself as a bigot during this campaign .
The reason his mockery of Senator Harris ’ s name struck a nerve is it epitomized Trumpism in a few short syllables : avoiding substance , not mentioning this crisis that has inflicted tragedy on so many , but instead just @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for their heritage , and othering political adversaries who aren ’ t white .
JW : Stacey Abrams came within 55,000 votes of becoming governor in 2018 .
Many of us believe she would be governor if not for voter suppression .
But how do you win this race if Abrams couldn ’ t win hers ?
JO : Georgia becomes younger and more diverse by the hour .
That new electorate is hungry for more progressive political leadership , unifying leadership , leadership that trusts science and empowers medical experts during a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the last few years : In 2017 , we swung Georgia-6th by 20 points ; in 2018 , Stacey Abrams ’ s historic gubernatorial built massive statewide infrastructure and Lucy McBath won Georgia-6th , and Carolyn Bordeaux came within 500 votes of winning in Georgia-7th .
All of these huge battles have built massive political infrastructure .
In 2020 , we ’ re at the tipping point and a culmination of a decade ’ s work .
JW : What are your two biggest worries in terms of voter interference or suppression there @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are the state ’ s implementation of its new electronic voting infrastructure—in particular the bandwidth issues that have plagued the check-in process—and whether the state has adequately resourced the majority-black counties of DeKalb and Fulton which have had massive lines .
JW : I ’ ve seen the early voting lines and they ’ re scandalous… JO : Let me make clear this point , though : I ’ m inspired and moved by the way Georgia voters overcome obstacles put in their way , but at the same time deeply disgusted by @ @ @ @ @ @ @ wait 10 hours in line to vote .
But the paradigm shift that Stacey Abrams led is this : Democrats used to play down this stuff , for fear it would deter participation .
But we recognize now that when people are made aware that someone ’ s trying to take away their hard-won sacred rights , they ’ re galvanized in their determination to exercise those rights .
So the people are undeterred , but the state of Georgia continues to disenfranchise its citizens .
And it ’ s a disgrace .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ female suburban resistance to Trump covering your 2017 race .
The next year Lucy McBath won that seat , and Carolyn Bordeaux almost won , and is among the top-rated challengers in the district next door .
Has that element of “ the Resistance ” continued to grow ?
JO : Absolutely .
The army of women who picked me up and carried me on their shoulders in 2017 and who knocked on millions of doors across the country in the midterms is very much active and engaged .
And it ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and white women are the beating heart of our ongoing efforts to change Georgia for the better .
JW : A lot of Democratic challengers , across the country , have talked to me about the tension between trying to reach , and persuade , formerly GOP suburban women who are on the fence , though , and digging in to mobilize so-called “ low-propensity ” voters—younger voters , and voters of color , who only turn out every so often .
How is your campaign balancing that tension ?
JO : There @ @ @ @ @ @ @ don ’ t have to choose between broadening the Democratic Party ’ s tent and reaching out to voters in the suburbs who are exploring their political identities anew in the Trump era—and more Republicans realizing that the catastrophic incompetence and ludicrous narcissism of the president and his party is totally unacceptable—and making sure our policy agenda and our outreach efforts are centering black voters .
First of all , the issues of concern to black and white families—health care costs , the level of support for ordinary families and small business in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ experts are being suppressed during a health crisis like this , and even civil rights and criminal justice reform—these are unifying issues with broad appeal across racial lines .
We ’ re seeing a collapse of the GOP ’ s Southern strategy—Republicans have tried to divide people along racial lines to prevent the emergence of a multiracial coalition that recognizes shared economic and health issues and shares a commitment to civil rights .
And that ’ s what Senator Perdue mocking Senator Harris ’ s name is all about—it ’ s trying to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ resuscitate “ us versus them , ” us versus “ the other , ” and it ’ s just not working here anymore .
It ’ s a multiraicial , multigenerational coalition with a shared sense of values that will carry us to victory .
JW : What is it like to be running with Reverend Warnock ?
I ’ ve been watching you two on social media .
I know you have your own approach to black voters , but do you anticipate he is helping ?
JO : I love running @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a ticket , and we communicate every day .
My entire career in politics has been working for the Congressional Black Caucus , working for Congressman Hank Johnson in DeKalb County , working for Congressman John Lewis , one of my mentors and close friends .
Reverend Warnock and I have that connection going back .
When I was talking about the collapse of the Southern Strategy in Georgia and the culmination of a decade ’ s work of political organizing in Georgia , there could be no more fitting culmination of that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ man mentored by John Lewis , and the senior pastor at Ebenezer Baptist Church , also mentored by Congressman Lewis , in the same year .
The first time I ever had a meal with Congressman Lewis , what he wanted to talk to me about most was the relationship with Jewish and Black leaders , how he remembered marching alongside Rabbis and Jewish activists in the ’ 60s , and important that alliance was , and how he wanted me to be committed to deepening those bonds .
And I think there @ @ @ @ @ @ @ at this time .
JW : It must have been hard to lose him this year .
JO : Oh , it was a gut punch .
Just not to be able to call him for advice .
The thing about Congressman Lewis was that he had a way of cutting through the noise to get to the root of an ethical or moral question .
His moral compass was just so steady .
He saw the world with moral clarity , not at the exclusion of understanding its complexity , but he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ heart of the matter .
His advice was unparalleled and his friendship was so generous .
JW : So assuming you ’ re elected to the Senate , a couple of controversial issues : Would you support getting rid of the filibuster ?
JO : I ’ m open to discussing any proposed changes to Senate rules .
But what are the implications when the shoe is on the other foot ?
It ’ s not just a yes-or-no question .
But I rule nothing out and look forward to the debate .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ look forward to legislating on behalf of Georgia , not just getting mired in gridlock .
JW : What kind of oversight should the next Congress do in terms of… let ’ s say “ alleged ” crimes by Trump and his cabinet and staff ?
JO : Well , for example , the policy of separating children from their parents at the border and disappearing them into a federal gulag ?
My business investigates war crimes—we ’ ve produced multiple investigations of ISIS atrocities against women and girls in Iraq ; we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ committed by “ peacekeeping ” troops .
And if that happened in a war zone ?
It would be a war crime .
And the officials who ordered the seizure of children from their parents ?
The forcible separation of families extrajudicially ?
There has to be accountability for that .
I think we have to be prudent and consider the long-term consequences and potential impact on desperately needed reconciliation if we ’ re talking about going after a former president .
But executive branch officials can not plead that they were just @ @ @ @ @ @ @ accountability .

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Georgia Democratic Senate challenger Jon Ossoff raised a whopping $21 million in the third quarter, but arguably two of his biggest in-kind contributions came from his opponent, Senator David Perdue. In late July, Perdue released an ad that enlarged the nose of Ossoff, who is Jewish, and linked him to Senate minority leader Chuck Schumer and big money, which many people understandably saw as anti-Semitic. (Perdue’s campaign first denied the alteration, then blamed it on a vendor.) Then, last week, he mocked Kamala Harris’s name while introducing Donald Trump at a Macon rally—“KAH’-mah-lah? Kah-MAH’-lah? Kamala-mala-mala? I don’t know. Whatever,” he joked, to the crowd’s cheers. The nationwide backlash helped raise Ossoff almost $2 million in two days.
“Senator Perdue’s intentionally disrespectful mispronunciation of Senator Harris’s name is a bigoted and racist tactic straight from President Trump’s handbook,” said Georgia Democratic Party chair Nikema Williams. “He owes Georgians an apology for his offensive display.” Of course, he did not apologize; staffers insisted he meant nothing by it. As if after almost four years in the Senate together, he couldn’t pronounce her name.
Right now all respected polling aggregators list the race as a toss-up, an astonishing setback for Perdue, who beat Democrat Michelle Nunn 53-45 in 2014 and was leading until recently. But Perdue, the outsourcing business leader who styled himself as an outsider, became a Trump worshipper in 2017—and his fortunes have declined in Georgia with the president’s. Barely a week ago, rallying with Ivanka Trump, he claimed that Trump’s leadership on coronavirus “saved hundreds of thousands of lives,” adding, “Democrats will never give us credit for that.” Meanwhile, his ads declare him to be dedicated to police reform and protecting Georgians with preexisting conditions; with Trump sinking in Georgia, he is clearly playing both sides. It’s not working.
Ossoff, an investigative journalist who runs a media company focused on documenting war crimes and corporate abuse and also a former Democratic congressional aide, jumped onto the national scene when he ran in a 2017 special election to fill Representative Tom Price’s suburban Georgia House seat, after Price was tapped by Trump to head the Department of Health and Human Services (briefly; he was one of the first Trump picks felled by scandal). Ossoff’s candidacy was propelled by the early backing of the late civil rights icon Representative John Lewis, as well as a then-unheard-of anti-Trump mobilization of suburban women, mainly but not exclusively white, in Georgia’s Sixth District. He almost beat anti-abortion, anti-voting-rights crusader Karen Handel, but got forced into a runoff with her, which he lost narrowly. Related Article QAnon Is Becoming a Republican Dog Whistle Zoë Carpenter
Despite his inspiring grassroots support, Ossoff was criticized on the left, outside his district at least, as too cautious and centrist. Senator Bernie Sanders endorsed him late, and tepidly, although Georgia voting rights crusader (and almost governor) Stacey Abrams told me at the time, “What Jon understands is that being progressive in the South looks different than it does in other states. We have to work with, not just against.” At the time, and to this day, the “cautious centrist” label irks Ossoff. To combat it, he announced his Senate candidacy in an interview with Ryan Grim in the (mostly) left-wing Intercept. “Do you think that the fossil fuel and private prison industries and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and every corporate-funded Republican Super PAC in the country spent tens of millions of dollars attacking me [in 2017] because they believed I was going to support their agenda?” he asked Grim. “They recognized I was a threat to their stranglehold on the legislative process.” Popular "swipe left below to view more authors"Swipe → The Evisceration of a Public University The Evisceration of a Public University Lisa M. Corrigan The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks Chris Lehmann “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash Dave Zirin How the “Brooks Brothers Riot” Set the Stage for Insurrection How the “Brooks Brothers Riot” Set the Stage for Insurrection Chris Lehmann Popular "swipe left below to view more authors"Swipe → The Evisceration of a Public University The Evisceration of a Public University Lisa M. Corrigan The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks Chris Lehmann “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash Dave Zirin How the “Brooks Brothers Riot” Set the Stage for Insurrection How the “Brooks Brothers Riot” Set the Stage for Insurrection Chris Lehmann
Ossoff is still trying to walk a narrow path: appealing to Georgia’s increasingly diverse and progressive Democratic electorate, while still reaching those suburban white voters, mainly women, some of them ex-Republicans, who almost sent him to Congress in 2017. He still opposes Medicare for All, for instance, but backs a vast expansion of the Affordable Care Act, including a generous public insurance option. In his book We’ve Got People, Grim called Ossoff’s 2017 campaign “downright radical” compared to the traditional Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee template. Via e-mail, Grim told me: “My point in 2017 was that a Representative Jon Ossoff would never be your obstacle to M4A, even if he’s not out there championing it. You build the mass support, he’ll be there, and that’s just as true for a Senator Ossoff.”
This year, Ossoff has centered his campaign on the corruption of both Trump and Perdue—the Georgia senator, with a blighted corporate past as CEO of Dollar General, last January bought stock in a personal protective equipment company on the very day he received a private Senate briefing on the impending Covid crisis—and the pandemic itself. It surged in the summer, thanks to GOP Governor Brian Kemp’s premature reopening, and is now surging again. Current Issue View our current issue
Ossoff is also benefiting from Abrams’s campaign, and her voting rights crusade. The group she founded, Fair Fight Action, says Georgia has added an astonishing 800,000 new voters since voter registration closed in October 2018—right before Abrams almost won. There’s more than one Senate race in Georgia this year: The retirement of GOP Senator Johnny Isakson has led to a free-for-all special election, in which Republicans Kelly Loeffler (the Kemp-appointed incumbent) and Representative Doug Collins are trying to out-Trump each other, as Democrat Raphael Warnock, the senior pastor of Atlanta’s storied Ebenezer Baptist Church, tries to sneak past them—and seems to be succeeding. Given Georgia’s complicated election laws, both races will go to January runoffs if no candidate gets more than 50 percent of the vote. So control of the Senate could easily come down to Georgia. Stay tuned.
But Ossoff’s focus seems to be paying off, and several unforced errors by Perdue are only helping. National pollsters have moved the race from a “likely Republican” win to a “toss-up”; his campaign says its internal polling shows him beating Perdue 50-45. The clearest sign of the threat he poses is that Mitch McConnell’s Senate Victory Fund has spent more to defeat Ossoff than to thwart any other challenger in the country—more than $32 million, representing one in every five dollars spent to date, according to The Daily Beast.
Still, Georgia’s storied history of voter suppression could stymie him and Warnock—and Joe Biden. Though early voting is off the charts—2 million Georgians have already cast ballots—there have been lines as long as 10 hours in majority-black counties like DeKalb. A Vice News investigation found that “the number of active voters per polling precinct in Georgia’s four most-populated counties [including DeKalb] averaged 3,271 per location, up from 2,402 in 2012. By contrast, the statewide average is 2,965 active voters per precinct.” Ossoff says he fears continued long lines from here through Election Day: “The people are undeterred, but the state of Georgia continues to disenfranchise its citizens. And it’s a disgrace.”
Our interview, below, has been lightly edited for length and clarity.
—Joan Walsh
J oan W alsh: So you’ve gotten two big assists from Senator David Perdue in the last few months: first when he enlarged your nose in that anti-Semitic flyer, and second when he mocked Senator Kamala Harris’s name last week. Why do you think that resonated, in Georgia and nationally?
Jon Ossoff: Senator Perdue has revealed himself as a bigot during this campaign. The reason his mockery of Senator Harris’s name struck a nerve is it epitomized Trumpism in a few short syllables: avoiding substance, not mentioning this crisis that has inflicted tragedy on so many, but instead just stooping to schoolyard insults and mocking people for their heritage, and othering political adversaries who aren’t white.
JW: Stacey Abrams came within 55,000 votes of becoming governor in 2018. Many of us believe she would be governor if not for voter suppression. But how do you win this race if Abrams couldn’t win hers?
JO: Georgia becomes younger and more diverse by the hour. That new electorate is hungry for more progressive political leadership, unifying leadership, leadership that trusts science and empowers medical experts during a pandemic. Also, just looking at the last few years: In 2017, we swung Georgia-6th by 20 points; in 2018, Stacey Abrams’s historic gubernatorial built massive statewide infrastructure and Lucy McBath won Georgia-6th, and Carolyn Bordeaux came within 500 votes of winning in Georgia-7th. All of these huge battles have built massive political infrastructure. In 2020, we’re at the tipping point and a culmination of a decade’s work.
JW: What are your two biggest worries in terms of voter interference or suppression there?
JO: My two greatest concerns are the state’s implementation of its new electronic voting infrastructure—in particular the bandwidth issues that have plagued the check-in process—and whether the state has adequately resourced the majority-black counties of DeKalb and Fulton which have had massive lines.
JW: I’ve seen the early voting lines and they’re scandalous…
JO: Let me make clear this point, though: I’m inspired and moved by the way Georgia voters overcome obstacles put in their way, but at the same time deeply disgusted by the way Georgia forces its voters to wait 10 hours in line to vote. But the paradigm shift that Stacey Abrams led is this: Democrats used to play down this stuff, for fear it would deter participation. But we recognize now that when people are made aware that someone’s trying to take away their hard-won sacred rights, they’re galvanized in their determination to exercise those rights. So the people are undeterred, but the state of Georgia continues to disenfranchise its citizens. And it’s a disgrace.
JW: I first met the white female suburban resistance to Trump covering your 2017 race. The next year Lucy McBath won that seat, and Carolyn Bordeaux almost won, and is among the top-rated challengers in the district next door. Has that element of “the Resistance” continued to grow?
JO: Absolutely. The army of women who picked me up and carried me on their shoulders in 2017 and who knocked on millions of doors across the country in the midterms is very much active and engaged. And it’s a multiracial, multigenerational coalition. Black and white women are the beating heart of our ongoing efforts to change Georgia for the better.
JW: A lot of Democratic challengers, across the country, have talked to me about the tension between trying to reach, and persuade, formerly GOP suburban women who are on the fence, though, and digging in to mobilize so-called “low-propensity” voters—younger voters, and voters of color, who only turn out every so often. How is your campaign balancing that tension?
JO: There is no zero-sum game here. You don’t have to choose between broadening the Democratic Party’s tent and reaching out to voters in the suburbs who are exploring their political identities anew in the Trump era—and more Republicans realizing that the catastrophic incompetence and ludicrous narcissism of the president and his party is totally unacceptable—and making sure our policy agenda and our outreach efforts are centering black voters. First of all, the issues of concern to black and white families—health care costs, the level of support for ordinary families and small business in a pandemic like this, whether medical experts are being suppressed during a health crisis like this, and even civil rights and criminal justice reform—these are unifying issues with broad appeal across racial lines. We’re seeing a collapse of the GOP’s Southern strategy—Republicans have tried to divide people along racial lines to prevent the emergence of a multiracial coalition that recognizes shared economic and health issues and shares a commitment to civil rights.
And that’s what Senator Perdue mocking Senator Harris’s name is all about—it’s trying to resuscitate that Southern strategy, trying to resuscitate “us versus them,” us versus “the other,” and it’s just not working here anymore. It’s a multiraicial, multigenerational coalition with a shared sense of values that will carry us to victory.
JW: What is it like to be running with Reverend Warnock? I’ve been watching you two on social media. I know you have your own approach to black voters, but do you anticipate he is helping?
JO: I love running alongside the reverend—we’re running as a ticket, and we communicate every day. My entire career in politics has been working for the Congressional Black Caucus, working for Congressman Hank Johnson in DeKalb County, working for Congressman John Lewis, one of my mentors and close friends. Reverend Warnock and I have that connection going back. When I was talking about the collapse of the Southern Strategy in Georgia and the culmination of a decade’s work of political organizing in Georgia, there could be no more fitting culmination of that effort than to elect a young Jewish man mentored by John Lewis, and the senior pastor at Ebenezer Baptist Church, also mentored by Congressman Lewis, in the same year. The first time I ever had a meal with Congressman Lewis, what he wanted to talk to me about most was the relationship with Jewish and Black leaders, how he remembered marching alongside Rabbis and Jewish activists in the ’60s, and important that alliance was, and how he wanted me to be committed to deepening those bonds. And I think there’s something beautiful about this ticket at this time.
JW: It must have been hard to lose him this year.
JO: Oh, it was a gut punch. Just not to be able to call him for advice. The thing about Congressman Lewis was that he had a way of cutting through the noise to get to the root of an ethical or moral question. His moral compass was just so steady. He saw the world with moral clarity, not at the exclusion of understanding its complexity, but he was always able to get to the heart of the matter. His advice was unparalleled and his friendship was so generous.
JW: So assuming you’re elected to the Senate, a couple of controversial issues: Would you support getting rid of the filibuster?
JO: I’m open to discussing any proposed changes to Senate rules. But what are the implications when the shoe is on the other foot? It’s not just a yes-or-no question. But I rule nothing out and look forward to the debate. And just to be clear: I look forward to legislating on behalf of Georgia, not just getting mired in gridlock.
JW: What kind of oversight should the next Congress do in terms of… let’s say “alleged” crimes by Trump and his cabinet and staff?
JO: Well, for example, the policy of separating children from their parents at the border and disappearing them into a federal gulag? My business investigates war crimes—we’ve produced multiple investigations of ISIS atrocities against women and girls in Iraq; we’ve produced investigations of war crimes committed by “peacekeeping” troops. And if that happened in a war zone? It would be a war crime. And the officials who ordered the seizure of children from their parents? The forcible separation of families extrajudicially? There has to be accountability for that. I think we have to be prudent and consider the long-term consequences and potential impact on desperately needed reconciliation if we’re talking about going after a former president. But executive branch officials cannot plead that they were just following orders. There has to be accountability.
Editor’s Note: This article initially referred to Georgia Senator Kelly Loeffler as appointed by President Trump. In fact, she was appointed by Georgia Governor Brian Kemp. The error has been corrected.


thenation--2020-10-26--‘The Nation’ Launches ‘System Check,’ A New Podcast With Melissa Harris-Perry and Dorian Warren

New York , N.Y.—October 26 , 2020—The Nation , America ’ s leading source of progressive politics and culture , today announced the launch of System Check , a new 10-episode podcast uncovering the harmful systems operating under the hood of US democracy .
Bridging from Election Day to Inauguration Day , cohosts Melissa Harris-Perry ( @ MHarrisPerry ) and Dorian Warren ( @ dorianwarren ) will bring common sense to political commentary , turn down the frenzy and tune into the leaders and change makers doing the work of fighting for a more radical , just , and equitable @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the systems undergirding and undermining our democratic institutions—and identify their promise and potential for political change .
Listen to the trailer here .
Colleagues , coworkers , and co-conspirators , Melissa and Dorian bring out the best in one another as smart , funny , irreverent , skeptical , insightful friends with a lot to say about our social and political world .
They bring two decades of collaboration , astute political analysis , activist/organizer energy , and academic rigor to create an informative , solutions-oriented , not-to-be-missed new program .
( Read @ @ @ @ @ @ @ words , in a just-published Q & A for The Nation : “ Checking the Systems That Hold Us Back.
” ) “ As a longtime admirer of Melissa Harris-Perry , I ’ m delighted she ’ s come back home to the Nation .
And equally delighted that Dorian Warren , whose brilliance has illuminated many Nation editorial board meetings , has decided to stop hiding his light under that bushel , ” said Nation editor D.D .
Guttenplan .
“ Together they bring formidable political wisdom , cultural savvy , and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ one who cares about building a better world will want to miss.
” “ The systems that shape our lives aren ’ t working for the vast majority of people in this country—Melissa and Dorian know this ; it ’ s something they ’ ve grappled with for years , and it ’ s something they ’ re committed to changing , ” added multimedia editor and System Check executive producer Frank Reynolds .
“ That ’ s what this show is all about : imagining the future we want to live in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ present to make it happen .
I am so grateful that we ’ ll have Melissa and Dorian as our guides through this necessary , transformative work .
I ’ m also thrilled to be working again with Sophia Steinert-Evoy , our producer and my former colleague on The Nation ’ s Next Left podcast .
This team is going to make the time between the election and the inauguration one of listening , learning , planning , and fighting for the future we deserve.
” “ I have assiduously avoided all broadcast @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I just couldn ’ t pass up an opportunity to come home to The Nation , ” said cohost Melissa Harris-Perry .
“ The Nation is the first place I penned a column .
The Nation has supported my work with student journalists .
The Nation has developed and amplified many of the thinkers and writers I rely on to understand the world .
I am thrilled that Dorian and I have this opportunity to add our voices to their meaningful work .
I learn something new every single time I talk with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this podcast is just an excuse for me to have more opportunities to enjoy his humor and intellect.
” “ For 20 years , Melissa has been like the sister I never had , but always wish I did , ” added cohost Dorian Warren .
“ Between her sheer brilliance , her deep skepticism of what passes for conventional political wisdom , her groundedness in the everyday struggles of marginalized folk , and her rib-tickling sense of humor , it ’ s like taking a ‘ smart pill ’ every time I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on this podcast is a joy to make meaning together of our chaotic world and cut through the daily noise .
And , yes , smart hilarity will ensue.
” At root , System Check recognizes that the systems that oppress people in this country are not really broken or malfunctioning ; in many cases , they are operating just the way they were intended , to disenfranchise and suppress the many and consolidate power among the few .
The show looks at how these systems work , who they were designed by @ @ @ @ @ @ @ origins of those systems in order to shift and remake those systems .
It rejects the notion that this moment is unprecedented—instead bringing history , context , and nuance to bear on the challenges we face today .
The first episode of System Check launches this Friday , October 30 , with a look at the system of casting a vote ; part two of our voting-system check will look at the system by which that vote is counted .
With new episodes each Friday thereafter , future shows will tackle systems of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ change , and of white supremacy .
From a temperature check on the global pandemic , to the reign of austerity politics in a deepening economic depression , to the outsized monopoly power of tech giants like Amazon and Facebook , and from cancel culture to the misremembrance of Martin Luther King Jr. , Melissa and Dorian will take on an encyclopedic range of crises and quandaries with steely-eyed hope and humor .
System Check is the latest addition to The Nation ’ s growing catalogue of politically charged podcasts and limited-term explanatory @ @ @ @ @ @ @ America today .
Our previous successful forays into podcasting include The Nation ’ s flagship weekly news program , Start Making Sense , with host and contributing editor Jon Wiener , and Edge of Sports , where sports and politics collide , hosted by sports editor Dave Zirin .
The Nation has also produced several smart , limited-run podcasts , including , in partnership with WNYC Studios , the inaugural seasons of United States of Anxiety and There Goes the Neighborhood , with host Kai Wright ; Next Left , where politics gets @ @ @ @ @ @ @ progressive politicians , activists , and change makers talking to national-affairs correspondent John Nichols ; and More Than Enough , a frank discussion about Universal Basic Income and the ways in which people ’ s lives—and our country and politics—would be transformed if people had their needs adequately covered , with host Mia Birdsong .
Together , these Nation podcasts offer a distinctive understanding of news and politics and people with a focus on “ bottom-up ” storytelling , and an eye to the stories you won ’ t hear anywhere else .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ please see contact information above .
ABOUT : Co-Host Melissa Harris-Perry is the Maya Angelou Presidential Chair and Professor in the Department of Politics and International Affairs and the Department of Women , Gender , and Sexuality Studies at Wake Forest University .
She is founder and president of the Anna Julia Cooper Center and a long time columnist and contributor to The Nation .
From 2012–16 she hosted the television show Melissa Harris-Perry on weekend mornings on MSNBC and was awarded the Hillman Prize for broadcast journalism .
She ’ s penned @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and served editor-at-large for Elle.com and ZORA , a Medium publication for women of color .
Follow her on Twitter : @ MHarrisPerry , and on Instagram : @ mharrisperry .
Co-Host Dorian Warren is the president of Community Change , and co-chair of the Economic Security Project .
A progressive scholar , organizer , and media personality , Dorian has worked to advance racial , economic , and social justice for over two decades .
He taught for over a decade at the University of Chicago and Columbia University , where he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on Labor Law and Policy .
He also worked at MSNBC , where he was a contributor and host , as well as the executive producer of Nerding Out on MSNBC ’ s digital platform .
He serves on the editorial board of The Nation magazine .
As a commentator on public affairs , Warren has appeared regularly on television and radio including NBC Nightly News , ABC , MSNBC , CNN , CNBC , BET , BBC , NPR , Bloomberg , & NY1 , among other outlets .
He has also @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Newsweek , Salon , The Washington Post , The New York Times , Medium , Ebony.com , and Boston Review .
Follow him on Twitter : @ dorianwarren , and on Instagram : @ doriantwarren .
Producer Sophia Steinert-Evoy is an audio producer and editor .
She produced Next Left from The Nation with John Nichols .
She has also worked on the podcasts Citations Needed , Hi-Phi Nation , and The Organist , as well as audio documentaries for BBC Radio 4 .
Follow her on Twitter : @ steinertevoy .
Executive @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s multimedia editor and the executive producer of the podcasts Next Left , More Than Enough , Start Making Sense , and Edge of Sports .
Founded by abolitionists in 1865 , The Nation has chronicled the breadth and depth of political and cultural life , from the debut of the telegraph to the rise of Twitter , serving as a critical , independent , and progressive voice in American journalism .

Contact: Caitlin Graf, The Nation, press [at] thenation.com, 212-209-5400
New York, N.Y.—October 26, 2020—The Nation, America’s leading source of progressive politics and culture, today announced the launch of System Check, a new 10-episode podcast uncovering the harmful systems operating under the hood of US democracy. Bridging from Election Day to Inauguration Day, cohosts Melissa Harris-Perry (@MHarrisPerry) and Dorian Warren (@dorianwarren) will bring common sense to political commentary, turn down the frenzy and tune into the leaders and change makers doing the work of fighting for a more radical, just, and equitable future. They will make sense of the systems undergirding and undermining our democratic institutions—and identify their promise and potential for political change. Listen to the trailer here.
Colleagues, coworkers, and co-conspirators, Melissa and Dorian bring out the best in one another as smart, funny, irreverent, skeptical, insightful friends with a lot to say about our social and political world. They bring two decades of collaboration, astute political analysis, activist/organizer energy, and academic rigor to create an informative, solutions-oriented, not-to-be-missed new program. (Read Melissa and Dorian, in their own words, in a just-published Q&A for The Nation: “Checking the Systems That Hold Us Back.”)
“As a longtime admirer of Melissa Harris-Perry, I’m delighted she’s come back home to the Nation. And equally delighted that Dorian Warren, whose brilliance has illuminated many Nation editorial board meetings, has decided to stop hiding his light under that bushel,” said Nation editor D.D. Guttenplan. “Together they bring formidable political wisdom, cultural savvy, and incredible energy to a conversation that no one who cares about building a better world will want to miss.” Popular "swipe left below to view more authors"Swipe → The Evisceration of a Public University The Evisceration of a Public University Lisa M. Corrigan The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks Chris Lehmann “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash Dave Zirin How the “Brooks Brothers Riot” Set the Stage for Insurrection How the “Brooks Brothers Riot” Set the Stage for Insurrection Chris Lehmann Popular "swipe left below to view more authors"Swipe → The Evisceration of a Public University The Evisceration of a Public University Lisa M. Corrigan The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks Chris Lehmann “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash Dave Zirin How the “Brooks Brothers Riot” Set the Stage for Insurrection How the “Brooks Brothers Riot” Set the Stage for Insurrection Chris Lehmann
“The systems that shape our lives aren’t working for the vast majority of people in this country—Melissa and Dorian know this; it’s something they’ve grappled with for years, and it’s something they’re committed to changing,” added multimedia editor and System Check executive producer Frank Reynolds. “That’s what this show is all about: imagining the future we want to live in, and working like hell in the present to make it happen. I am so grateful that we’ll have Melissa and Dorian as our guides through this necessary, transformative work. I’m also thrilled to be working again with Sophia Steinert-Evoy, our producer and my former colleague on The Nation’s Next Left podcast. This team is going to make the time between the election and the inauguration one of listening, learning, planning, and fighting for the future we deserve.”
“I have assiduously avoided all broadcast media for nearly four years, but I just couldn’t pass up an opportunity to come home to The Nation,” said cohost Melissa Harris-Perry. “The Nation is the first place I penned a column. The Nation has supported my work with student journalists. The Nation has developed and amplified many of the thinkers and writers I rely on to understand the world. I am thrilled that Dorian and I have this opportunity to add our voices to their meaningful work. I learn something new every single time I talk with Dorian. Partnering with him to host this podcast is just an excuse for me to have more opportunities to enjoy his humor and intellect.”
“For 20 years, Melissa has been like the sister I never had, but always wish I did,” added cohost Dorian Warren. “Between her sheer brilliance, her deep skepticism of what passes for conventional political wisdom, her groundedness in the everyday struggles of marginalized folk, and her rib-tickling sense of humor, it’s like taking a ‘smart pill’ every time I talk to her. Partnering with her on this podcast is a joy to make meaning together of our chaotic world and cut through the daily noise. And, yes, smart hilarity will ensue.”
At root, System Check recognizes that the systems that oppress people in this country are not really broken or malfunctioning; in many cases, they are operating just the way they were intended, to disenfranchise and suppress the many and consolidate power among the few. The show looks at how these systems work, who they were designed by, and why we must understand the origins of those systems in order to shift and remake those systems. It rejects the notion that this moment is unprecedented—instead bringing history, context, and nuance to bear on the challenges we face today.
The first episode of System Check launches this Friday, October 30, with a look at the system of casting a vote; part two of our voting-system check will look at the system by which that vote is counted. With new episodes each Friday thereafter, future shows will tackle systems of poverty, of immigration, of climate change, and of white supremacy. From a temperature check on the global pandemic, to the reign of austerity politics in a deepening economic depression, to the outsized monopoly power of tech giants like Amazon and Facebook, and from cancel culture to the misremembrance of Martin Luther King Jr., Melissa and Dorian will take on an encyclopedic range of crises and quandaries with steely-eyed hope and humor.
System Check is the latest addition to The Nation’s growing catalogue of politically charged podcasts and limited-term explanatory series exploring the most crucial issues facing America today. Our previous successful forays into podcasting include The Nation’s flagship weekly news program, Start Making Sense, with host and contributing editor Jon Wiener, and Edge of Sports, where sports and politics collide, hosted by sports editor Dave Zirin. The Nation has also produced several smart, limited-run podcasts, including, in partnership with WNYC Studios, the inaugural seasons of United States of Anxiety and There Goes the Neighborhood, with host Kai Wright; Next Left, where politics gets personal, with the next generation of progressive politicians, activists, and change makers talking to national-affairs correspondent John Nichols; and More Than Enough, a frank discussion about Universal Basic Income and the ways in which people’s lives—and our country and politics—would be transformed if people had their needs adequately covered, with host Mia Birdsong. Together, these Nation podcasts offer a distinctive understanding of news and politics and people with a focus on “bottom-up” storytelling, and an eye to the stories you won’t hear anywhere else.
For interview requests or further information, please see contact information above.
ABOUT: Co-Host Melissa Harris-Perry is the Maya Angelou Presidential Chair and Professor in the Department of Politics and International Affairs and the Department of Women, Gender, and Sexuality Studies at Wake Forest University. She is founder and president of the Anna Julia Cooper Center and a long time columnist and contributor to The Nation. From 2012–16 she hosted the television show Melissa Harris-Perry on weekend mornings on MSNBC and was awarded the Hillman Prize for broadcast journalism. She’s penned regular columns for Essence and The Nation and served editor-at-large for Elle.com and ZORA, a Medium publication for women of color. Follow her on Twitter: @MHarrisPerry, and on Instagram: @mharrisperry.
Co-Host Dorian Warren is the president of Community Change, and co-chair of the Economic Security Project. A progressive scholar, organizer, and media personality, Dorian has worked to advance racial, economic, and social justice for over two decades. He taught for over a decade at the University of Chicago and Columbia University, where he was codirector of the Columbia University Program on Labor Law and Policy. He also worked at MSNBC, where he was a contributor and host, as well as the executive producer of Nerding Out on MSNBC’s digital platform. He serves on the editorial board of The Nation magazine. As a commentator on public affairs, Warren has appeared regularly on television and radio including NBC Nightly News, ABC, MSNBC, CNN, CNBC, BET, BBC, NPR, Bloomberg, & NY1, among other outlets. He has also written for The Nation, HuffPost, Newsweek, Salon, The Washington Post, The New York Times, Medium, Ebony.com, and Boston Review. Follow him on Twitter: @dorianwarren, and on Instagram: @doriantwarren.
Producer Sophia Steinert-Evoy is an audio producer and editor. She produced Next Left from The Nation with John Nichols. She has also worked on the podcasts Citations Needed, Hi-Phi Nation, and The Organist, as well as audio documentaries for BBC Radio 4. Follow her on Twitter: @steinertevoy.
Executive Producer Frank Reynolds is The Nation’s multimedia editor and the executive producer of the podcasts Next Left, More Than Enough, Start Making Sense, and Edge of Sports.
Theme music by Brooklyn-based artist and producer Jachary.
Founded by abolitionists in 1865, The Nation has chronicled the breadth and depth of political and cultural life, from the debut of the telegraph to the rise of Twitter, serving as a critical, independent, and progressive voice in American journalism.
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