thenation--2020-08-11--Representative Barbara Lee: ‘The Public Is With Us’

Representative Barbara Lee of California cast the sole vote in 2001 against the Authorization for the Use of Military Force ( AUMF ) that George W. Bush and ensuing presidents have employed as their excuse to wage what have come to be known as “ forever wars.
” Political and media elites decried her vote .
But millions of Americans embraced the slogan , “ Barbara Lee Speaks For Me.
” Since 2001 , Lee has kept speaking for peace and for economic , social , and racial justice .
And she ’ s gained allies in Congress .
In @ @ @ @ @ @ @ members and 23 senators supported a proposal by Lee and Representative Mark Pocan of Wisconsin to cut the Pentagon budget by 10 percent—so that money could be freed up to battle Covid-19 , mass unemployment , and other domestic challenges .
I spoke with Lee after the vote about how the politics of 2020 have shifted , and how they must keep shifting .
She took the long view , recalling the work of two of her mentors , Representative Ron Dellums of California and Representative Shirley Chisholm of New York , and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ raising for decades—about budget priorities , police brutality , structural racism , and taking down Confederate statues—are finally gaining traction because young people are demanding fundamental change .
We also talked about how and why the Democratic Party—which will meet in convention next week—must respond to that demand .
What follows is a condensed version of our conversation .
ohn ichols : You ’ ve worked for five decades to reorder priorities away from bloated Pentagon spending and toward domestic needs .
Suddenly , you ’ ve got a lot of allies .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ Mike Pence in the Vice Presidential Debate Ilhan Omar Faces a Primary Tuesday Because She Speaks Truth to Power Progressives Are Rallying Behind Karen Bass for VP arbara ee : I think you have a convergence , or a confluence , that represents the intersectional nature of where people are in terms of economic security , racial justice , and social justice .
And I have to give a lot of credit to our groups , our outside organizations , and our grassroots movements that have taken place over the years .
There @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on a variety of military budget issues , police issues , justice issues .
Now , I think they ’ re all coming together , which is one thing Ron [ Dellums ] always wanted to see .
We always talked about how the peace movement needed to involve more people of color and African Americans .
The justice movement hasn ’ t had as many white people in it as it should.… The environmental movement has been mainly a movement of white middle-income individuals .
Now , we see environmental justice , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ these movements coming together.… Then of course , bringing it up to Covid , it ’ s clear that people are hurting very badly .
And , yet , they are told that “ Well , the resources just aren ’ t there.
” And of course we know that Republicans got their tax cuts , but the resources are really also within the Pentagon in terms of their wasteful spending .
So I think connecting the two is what is taking place now , as people are suffering and living on the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ That ’ s everyone , regardless of race and background , although , of course , it is hitting Black and brown people harder because of historic and systemic racism .
I think that this is the moment when all of this is coming together , where the movement is really pushing the Congress and saying , “ We need resources for our domestic priorities and investments in our domestic priorities , and we need to have—yes—a strong national security.
” That ’ s why , in the cuts I ’ ve proposed—including @ @ @ @ @ @ @ billion cut in Pentagon spending—we talk about making sure the troops have what they need , because so many troops are living on the edge.… You can cut up to 40 or 50 percent out of the Pentagon budget and still have strong national security .
So 10 percent is for starters , but it ’ s great , and I ’ m so glad we got there—because this $ 73 or $ 74 billion is badly needed today in our communities , and that doesn ’ t even scratch the surface .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ Democrats to make this new set of budget priorities a part of what they talk about in 2020 ?
BL : Well , it ’ s absolutely important , because young people are not going to tolerate [ status quo politics ] .
They ’ re not going to vote if we don ’ t make it a part of our new priorities .
When you look at polling data , when you look at where people are on military policy and domestic policy—when it comes to making sure that these unauthorized wars @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is with us .
JN : Just as you have been talking about Pentagon budgets for a long time , you ’ ve been talking about structural racism for decades .
Do you see something happening on these issues , as well , with the protests against police violence and systemic racism ?
BL : I ’ m cautiously optimistic , and it took the unfortunate and horrific murder of Mr. Floyd for people to really seriously begin to focus on the systemic racist nature of the criminal justice system and our policing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ police issues since the ’ 70s .
I was going into San Quentin , into prisons then , counseling and working with inmates .
I started drilling down more , well , even before that with the Black Panther Party .
You know , the Black Panther Party stood down the police because they were killing people and they were brutalizing our communities in Oakland and throughout the country .
I was a community worker with the Black Panther Party , so I got it then and understood we had to have some @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Fast forward to when I was in the [ California ] Legislature .
I served on the Public Safety Committee , where we would authorize bills such as “ three strikes ” or “ sentence enhancement ” or some really terrible , draconian public policy relating to the criminal justice system .
Of course I was one of the few “ no ” votes on “ three strikes ” and many of the other issues .
I had to actually ask for security , I had so many death threats when I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ strikes.
” It wasn ’ t quite as bad as after 9/11 , but it was awful how people came after me then .
So to see where we are now , we ’ ve come full circle , and to see members of Congress recognizing the injustice in the system really is hopeful .
I keep going back to the notion that this is a marathon for justice .
It ’ s been a marathon for me .
You have to keep fighting , you have to run this lap of the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ baton , we passed younger people the batons .
We see Black Lives Matter and Dreamers .
We see our Movement for Black Lives , everyone coming together now , taking these batons and running with it !
JN : We ’ re also starting to have a discussion about systemic racism in healthcare and in so many of our necessary services .
In a sense , Covid-19 has caused , I think , an opening up of a discussion about the injustice of a for-profit healthcare system .
BL : Yes , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ one thing on the disparities in the healthcare system : They have been with us since the first enslaved Africans were brought to America 401 years ago .
This is nothing new .
We ’ ve been fighting for universal , accessible , affordable healthcare ; I mean , Black people have been fighting for this forever .
When you look at Covid-19 and the disproportionate impact on African Americans and Latinx communities , I have , in my constituency [ Oakland and other communities in the San Francisco Bay Area ] my @ @ @ @ @ @ @ “ What is going on ?
What is happening ?
Why is this ?
” They could not understand .
And I ’ ve been talking about healthcare disparities and ethnic disparities in healthcare forever !
And so was Ron !
But it never sunk in until they saw what was taking place .
So that shocked , I think , the conscience of a lot of people who claim to be progressive—and who are progressive on a lot of issues , but not on every issue as it relates to racial justice @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it ’ s taken the disproportionate deaths—and virus transmission rates—to get others to wake up to what we ’ ve been talking about , why we want to fund the National Institute on Minority Health and Health Disparities when Trump tries to zero out all of the budgets in healthcare .
So , yes , I think now hopefully the rest of the country sees what African Americans have known and felt .
People are recognizing that this [ racism ] is part of the issue as it relates to why there ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and mortality rates .
You look at these underlying conditions , such as hypertension—I mean , you know , racism is stressful !
Racism is a horrible way to live , live under , and that creates a heck of a lot of stress for African Americans , and historically we see how racism has impacted the health that creates in many ways these underlying conditions .
JN : You make a point that these are not new issues .
These are issues that your mentor , Shirley Chisholm , talked about long @ @ @ @ @ @ @ delegate at the 1972 Democratic convention .
Do you think that the kind of politics Shirley Chisholm talked about— “ unbossed and unbought , ” “ catalyst for change ” —is finally taking hold ?
BL : Absolutely , and I know Shirley is smiling right now .
She would be so proud of women in Congress , especially the women of color , saying , “ Enough is enough.
” Can you imagine ?
[ In the early 1970s ] , when I was here working for Ron after his election to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Chisholm [ who was elected in 1968 ] , and she mentored me .
Let me tell you , John , she was the only Black woman dealing with this entire power structure within the Congress !
It was amazing !
And she never backed down .
Now , she had her moments .
I was with her a lot when she broke down .
But she was a brilliant , progressive-thinking , smart , politically strategic Black woman !
And she took it all on .
I mean , she was actually—and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ know this—one of the first board members of NARAL , you know , when there was all this tension between white women and women of color as it relates to the pro-choice movement .
She took on the movement , the feminist movement , and said , “ You ’ ve got to understand race is a factor for Black women.
” Shirley did , when she was in Congress , fight hard for gender equality .
She fought hard for domestic workers…fought hard for low-wage workers .
She was an educator by @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
And Shirley was an immigrant .
Her family was .
She was very , very vocal about immigrant rights .
She was very vocal against the Vietnam War .
She was pro-choice when very few others were pro-choice .
I mean , yeah !
She would be happy , I think .
She would be pleased , and I think she would be proud of the seeds that she had sown , especially with women of color and specifically with Black women .
JN : She got you engaged with electoral politics @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have registered to vote had it not been for Shirley Chisholm , trust me !
[ In the early 1970s ] the Democrats didn ’ t bring anything to what I thought they should in terms of an agenda for everyone , for the people , and neither did the Republicans , so I said , “ Forget it , I ’ ll be Black Student Union president and a community worker with the Black Panther Party.
” That was my political work .
And here comes Shirley Chisholm , and she convinced @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that I could contribute to the political system , and the rest is history !
JN : The Democratic Party is at a critical juncture right now , obviously , with a vital presidential race and vital races for Congress .
What would you tell Democrats running at every level that they should learn from the Shirley Chisholm/Ron Dellums/Barbara Lee ethic ?
What does the Democratic Party need to learn at this point ?
BL : I think the Democratic Party needs to learn that it ’ s got to be inclusive and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ points of view from young people , from the Movement for Black Lives , from our Dreamers , from all of our young people throughout the country—and to know that even though their proposals may be bold and different and visionary , hey , you ’ ve got to embrace visionary and bold ideas now if you really want systemic change .
The Republicans have their bold and visionary ideas , which are so far to the right .
Ron used to always tell me that if you start in the center with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have to go ?
You have nowhere to negotiate but to the right .
Whereas if you come out progressive with bold and brilliant and visionary ideas , then you have a way to accomplish your goals because you have that kind of wiggle room , and you have that space to negotiate maybe , you know , center-left .
But you don ’ t start in the center because then we ’ ll never get to where we need to go .
I will tell the party , and I do tell @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the drafting committee for the party platform—that you ’ ve got to be bold in this platform .
You can ’ t start in the center .
You can ’ t go back to 2016 and go backwards .
You ’ ve got to go forward .
It ’ s got to be something that really reflects where the country is , where young people are , what it means to have a society that ’ s just for everyone and lives up to this country ’ s ideals—which it still hasn ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s what I told the party .
I tell them that all the time .
JN : Bernie Sanders delegates to this year ’ s Democratic National Convention recently suggested that Joe Biden should consider you for vice president .
I wonder what you thought about that .
BL : I was very humbled .
It just made me think , on a very personal level , “ Well , maybe our progressive work and movement , maybe people see us and hear us and understand what I ’ m doing or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ important is this 2020 election , the presidential election ?
BL : Well , it ’ s a matter of life and death .
What can I say ?
That ’ s how important it is .
It truly is life and death .
JN : Let ’ s finish off by talking about an issue that you have worked on for some time and where we have begun to see a significant shift in attitudes .
This fight over the removal of Confederate statues is not a new one for you .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ , I did the legislation to remove the Confederate statues from the Capitol .
I introduced it initially in 2017 and got a few [ cosponsors ] , but not enough .
Now , in 2020 , people were clamoring !
We combined it with several other statues and busts and pictures and what-have-you that other members had of total racists , and these men who committed treason .
So we got it passed off the floor !
JN : What was an aspiration in 2017 became possible in 2020 .
BL : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ m making !
We ’ ve got to step out there when we know it ’ s the right thing to do .
Even if nobody ’ s with you , if you ’ re the only one and if you really have a vision for what you think would break through some of these barriers , you ’ ve got to do it .
You wait , you work , you organize .
It ’ ll happen , sooner or later !
You can ’ t be impatient , although you know @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have been .
But I have to kind of temper my impatience so I can educate and explain and organize and study and get the arguments down .
It ’ s hard work , but it ’ s honorable work.… On progressive issues and on issues that I ’ ve historically been working on , you can put the marker down early .
That ’ s why you have to have a vision .
You have to have an agenda .
You have to know where you want to go .
Otherwise , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : If you had a chance to put up a few statues , who would you like to see honored ?
BL : It is .
Those three should be together , really .

This article appears in the August 24/31, 2020 issue.
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Representative Barbara Lee of California cast the sole vote in 2001 against the Authorization for the Use of Military Force (AUMF) that George W. Bush and ensuing presidents have employed as their excuse to wage what have come to be known as “forever wars.” Political and media elites decried her vote. But millions of Americans embraced the slogan, “Barbara Lee Speaks For Me.” Since 2001, Lee has kept speaking for peace and for economic, social, and racial justice. And she’s gained allies in Congress. In July of this year, 93 House members and 23 senators supported a proposal by Lee and Representative Mark Pocan of Wisconsin to cut the Pentagon budget by 10 percent—so that money could be freed up to battle Covid-19, mass unemployment, and other domestic challenges.
I spoke with Lee after the vote about how the politics of 2020 have shifted, and how they must keep shifting. She took the long view, recalling the work of two of her mentors, Representative Ron Dellums of California and Representative Shirley Chisholm of New York, and suggested that ideas that movements have been raising for decades—about budget priorities, police brutality, structural racism, and taking down Confederate statues—are finally gaining traction because young people are demanding fundamental change. We also talked about how and why the Democratic Party—which will meet in convention next week—must respond to that demand. What follows is a condensed version of our conversation.
—John Nichols
J ohn N ichols: You’ve worked for five decades to reorder priorities away from bloated Pentagon spending and toward domestic needs. Suddenly, you’ve got a lot of allies. What happened? More From John Nichols A GOP Debate Without Trump Is the Definition of Pointlessness August 11, 2023 A Win for Abortion Rights, a Win for Democracy: Ohio Voters Reject Issue 1 August 9, 2023 The Biggest Threat to Donald Trump Could Be the Constitution Itself August 4, 2023
B arbara L ee: I think you have a convergence, or a confluence, that represents the intersectional nature of where people are in terms of economic security, racial justice, and social justice. And I have to give a lot of credit to our groups, our outside organizations, and our grassroots movements that have taken place over the years. There have been a lot of them working on a variety of military budget issues, police issues, justice issues. Now, I think they’re all coming together, which is one thing Ron [Dellums] always wanted to see.
We always talked about how the peace movement needed to involve more people of color and African Americans. The justice movement hasn’t had as many white people in it as it should.… The environmental movement has been mainly a movement of white middle-income individuals. Now, we see environmental justice, and we see the intersectionality of all these movements coming together.…
Then of course, bringing it up to Covid, it’s clear that people are hurting very badly. And, yet, they are told that “Well, the resources just aren’t there.” And of course we know that Republicans got their tax cuts, but the resources are really also within the Pentagon in terms of their wasteful spending. Popular "swipe left below to view more authors"Swipe → The Evisceration of a Public University The Evisceration of a Public University Lisa M. Corrigan The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks Chris Lehmann “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash Dave Zirin A Grim Chronicle of Trump’s Corrupt Public Life A Grim Chronicle of Trump’s Corrupt Public Life Chris Lehmann Popular "swipe left below to view more authors"Swipe → The Evisceration of a Public University The Evisceration of a Public University Lisa M. Corrigan The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks Chris Lehmann “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash Dave Zirin A Grim Chronicle of Trump’s Corrupt Public Life A Grim Chronicle of Trump’s Corrupt Public Life Chris Lehmann Current Issue View our current issue
So I think connecting the two is what is taking place now, as people are suffering and living on the edge in such a profound way. That’s everyone, regardless of race and background, although, of course, it is hitting Black and brown people harder because of historic and systemic racism.
I think that this is the moment when all of this is coming together, where the movement is really pushing the Congress and saying, “We need resources for our domestic priorities and investments in our domestic priorities, and we need to have—yes—a strong national security.” That’s why, in the cuts I’ve proposed—including my own proposal for a $350 billion cut in Pentagon spending—we talk about making sure the troops have what they need, because so many troops are living on the edge.… You can cut up to 40 or 50 percent out of the Pentagon budget and still have strong national security.
So 10 percent is for starters, but it’s great, and I’m so glad we got there—because this $73 or $74 billion is badly needed today in our communities, and that doesn’t even scratch the surface.
JN: How important is it for Democrats to make this new set of budget priorities a part of what they talk about in 2020?
BL: Well, it’s absolutely important, because young people are not going to tolerate [status quo politics]. They’re not going to vote if we don’t make it a part of our new priorities. Representative Lee Representative Barbara Lee: ‘Defund the Pentagon Budget’ John Nichols
When you look at polling data, when you look at where people are on military policy and domestic policy—when it comes to making sure that these unauthorized wars, these forever wars, stop—the public is with us.
JN: Just as you have been talking about Pentagon budgets for a long time, you’ve been talking about structural racism for decades. Do you see something happening on these issues, as well, with the protests against police violence and systemic racism?
BL: I’m cautiously optimistic, and it took the unfortunate and horrific murder of Mr. Floyd for people to really seriously begin to focus on the systemic racist nature of the criminal justice system and our policing.
I’ve been involved in police issues since the ’70s. I was going into San Quentin, into prisons then, counseling and working with inmates. I started drilling down more, well, even before that with the Black Panther Party. You know, the Black Panther Party stood down the police because they were killing people and they were brutalizing our communities in Oakland and throughout the country. I was a community worker with the Black Panther Party, so I got it then and understood we had to have some systemic change in the criminal justice system.
Fast forward to when I was in the [California] Legislature. I served on the Public Safety Committee, where we would authorize bills such as “three strikes” or “sentence enhancement” or some really terrible, draconian public policy relating to the criminal justice system. Of course I was one of the few “no” votes on “three strikes” and many of the other issues. I had to actually ask for security, I had so many death threats when I voted “no” on “three strikes.” It wasn’t quite as bad as after 9/11, but it was awful how people came after me then.
So to see where we are now, we’ve come full circle, and to see members of Congress recognizing the injustice in the system really is hopeful.
I keep going back to the notion that this is a marathon for justice. It’s been a marathon for me. You have to keep fighting, you have to run this lap of the race. Ron Dellums passed me the baton, we passed younger people the batons. We see Black Lives Matter and Dreamers. We see our Movement for Black Lives, everyone coming together now, taking these batons and running with it!
JN: We’re also starting to have a discussion about systemic racism in healthcare and in so many of our necessary services. In a sense, Covid-19 has caused, I think, an opening up of a discussion about the injustice of a for-profit healthcare system.
BL: Yes, it has. Let me tell you one thing on the disparities in the healthcare system: They have been with us since the first enslaved Africans were brought to America 401 years ago. This is nothing new. We’ve been fighting for universal, accessible, affordable healthcare; I mean, Black people have been fighting for this forever.
When you look at Covid-19 and the disproportionate impact on African Americans and Latinx communities, I have, in my constituency [Oakland and other communities in the San Francisco Bay Area] my progressive white friends calling me saying, “What is going on? What is happening? Why is this?” They could not understand. And I’ve been talking about healthcare disparities and ethnic disparities in healthcare forever! And so was Ron! But it never sunk in until they saw what was taking place. So that shocked, I think, the conscience of a lot of people who claim to be progressive—and who are progressive on a lot of issues, but not on every issue as it relates to racial justice.
It’s so horrible because it’s taken the disproportionate deaths—and virus transmission rates—to get others to wake up to what we’ve been talking about, why we want to fund the National Institute on Minority Health and Health Disparities when Trump tries to zero out all of the budgets in healthcare.
So, yes, I think now hopefully the rest of the country sees what African Americans have known and felt. People are recognizing that this [racism] is part of the issue as it relates to why there’s such a difference in death rates and mortality rates.
You look at these underlying conditions, such as hypertension—I mean, you know, racism is stressful! Racism is a horrible way to live, live under, and that creates a heck of a lot of stress for African Americans, and historically we see how racism has impacted the health that creates in many ways these underlying conditions.
JN: You make a point that these are not new issues. These are issues that your mentor, Shirley Chisholm, talked about long ago. You were a Shirley Chisholm delegate at the 1972 Democratic convention. Do you think that the kind of politics Shirley Chisholm talked about—“unbossed and unbought,” “catalyst for change”—is finally taking hold?
BL: Absolutely, and I know Shirley is smiling right now. She would be so proud of women in Congress, especially the women of color, saying, “Enough is enough.” Can you imagine?
[In the early 1970s], when I was here working for Ron after his election to Congress, I got to see Shirley Chisholm [who was elected in 1968], and she mentored me. Let me tell you, John, she was the only Black woman dealing with this entire power structure within the Congress! It was amazing! And she never backed down.
Now, she had her moments. I was with her a lot when she broke down. But she was a brilliant, progressive-thinking, smart, politically strategic Black woman! And she took it all on.
I mean, she was actually—and a lot of people don’t know this—one of the first board members of NARAL, you know, when there was all this tension between white women and women of color as it relates to the pro-choice movement. She took on the movement, the feminist movement, and said, “You’ve got to understand race is a factor for Black women.”
Shirley did, when she was in Congress, fight hard for gender equality. She fought hard for domestic workers…fought hard for low-wage workers.
She was an educator by profession. She supported public school districts. And Shirley was an immigrant. Her family was. She was very, very vocal about immigrant rights. She was very vocal against the Vietnam War. She was pro-choice when very few others were pro-choice.
I mean, yeah! She would be happy, I think. She would be pleased, and I think she would be proud of the seeds that she had sown, especially with women of color and specifically with Black women.
JN: She got you engaged with electoral politics.
BL: I wouldn’t have registered to vote had it not been for Shirley Chisholm, trust me!
[In the early 1970s] the Democrats didn’t bring anything to what I thought they should in terms of an agenda for everyone, for the people, and neither did the Republicans, so I said, “Forget it, I’ll be Black Student Union president and a community worker with the Black Panther Party.” That was my political work.
And here comes Shirley Chisholm, and she convinced me that she thought I had something that I could contribute to the political system, and the rest is history!
JN: The Democratic Party is at a critical juncture right now, obviously, with a vital presidential race and vital races for Congress. What would you tell Democrats running at every level that they should learn from the Shirley Chisholm/Ron Dellums/Barbara Lee ethic? What does the Democratic Party need to learn at this point?
BL: I think the Democratic Party needs to learn that it’s got to be inclusive and democratic, which means listening to different points of view from young people, from the Movement for Black Lives, from our Dreamers, from all of our young people throughout the country—and to know that even though their proposals may be bold and different and visionary, hey, you’ve got to embrace visionary and bold ideas now if you really want systemic change.
The Republicans have their bold and visionary ideas, which are so far to the right. Ron used to always tell me that if you start in the center with an extreme-right-wing party, where do you have to go? You have nowhere to negotiate but to the right. Whereas if you come out progressive with bold and brilliant and visionary ideas, then you have a way to accomplish your goals because you have that kind of wiggle room, and you have that space to negotiate maybe, you know, center-left. But you don’t start in the center because then we’ll never get to where we need to go.
I will tell the party, and I do tell the party—you know, I was on the drafting committee for the party platform—that you’ve got to be bold in this platform. You can’t start in the center. You can’t go back to 2016 and go backwards. You’ve got to go forward. It’s got to be something that really reflects where the country is, where young people are, what it means to have a society that’s just for everyone and lives up to this country’s ideals—which it still hasn’t done! I mean, that’s what I told the party. I tell them that all the time.
JN: Bernie Sanders delegates to this year’s Democratic National Convention recently suggested that Joe Biden should consider you for vice president. I wonder what you thought about that.
BL: I was very humbled. It just made me think, on a very personal level, “Well, maybe our progressive work and movement, maybe people see us and hear us and understand what I’m doing or trying to do.”
JN: How important is this 2020 election, the presidential election?
BL: Well, it’s a matter of life and death. What can I say? That’s how important it is. It truly is life and death.
JN: Let’s finish off by talking about an issue that you have worked on for some time and where we have begun to see a significant shift in attitudes. This fight over the removal of Confederate statues is not a new one for you.
BL: Oh boy. You know, I did the legislation to remove the Confederate statues from the Capitol. I introduced it initially in 2017 and got a few [cosponsors], but not enough. Now, in 2020, people were clamoring! We combined it with several other statues and busts and pictures and what-have-you that other members had of total racists, and these men who committed treason. So we got it passed off the floor!
JN: What was an aspiration in 2017 became possible in 2020.
BL: That’s the point I’m making! We’ve got to step out there when we know it’s the right thing to do. Even if nobody’s with you, if you’re the only one and if you really have a vision for what you think would break through some of these barriers, you’ve got to do it. You wait, you work, you organize. It’ll happen, sooner or later!
You can’t be impatient, although you know I’m impatient. I always have been. But I have to kind of temper my impatience so I can educate and explain and organize and study and get the arguments down.
It’s hard work, but it’s honorable work.… On progressive issues and on issues that I’ve historically been working on, you can put the marker down early. That’s why you have to have a vision. You have to have an agenda. You have to know where you want to go. Otherwise, you’re just reacting.
JN: If you had a chance to put up a few statues, who would you like to see honored?
BL: Congressman John Robert Lewis, Congressman Ronald V. Dellums, and Congresswoman Shirley Chisholm.
JN: That’s a good trio!
BL: It is. Those three should be together, really.


thenation--2020-08-11--Trump Ramps Up His Assault on Democracy

Trump Ramps Up His Assault on Democracy

With the November election barely 80 days away , Trump is ramping up his efforts to sabotage the country ’ s political systems : the checks and balances between executive , legislative and judiciary ; and the processes by which elections are held and votes tallied .
The Signal this week is America ’ s escalating democracy crisis .
Witness : Despite the Supreme Court ruling last year prohibiting the Census from collecting data on respondents ’ immigration status , Trump signed an executive order barring undocumented immigrants from participating , and mandating that undocumented populations not be counted when @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the decennial population count .
A politicized Census Bureau is being urged to rush through completion of this year ’ s Census before hard-to-reach populations ( read : poor , nonwhite , and non–English speaking ) have been successfully canvassed and counted ; to use secretive modeling programs , based on data from the Social Security Administration and other agencies , to guesstimate the number of undocumented immigrants in each state and region at the back end of the Census process ; and to then use those numbers—which will be certified by @ @ @ @ @ @ @ president and the swearing in of the next Congress—as the raw material for a reapportionment of congressional seats clearly designed to negatively impact California and other progressive states with large numbers of immigrants .
The US Chamber of Commerce Says Trump Is Bad for Business Trump Is Flailing , and the Country Is Paying the Price Make no mistake , this is gerrymandering on a national scale , using a politicized Census Bureau to do Trump ’ s and the GOP ’ s dirty work .
A similar thing is happening with the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ appointee , Louis DeJoy , is now in charge .
Postmaster General DeJoy is purging its senior ranks , and—following a GOP Senate and White House blockade of additional funding for the service—refusing to pay postal workers overtime , to clear backlogs of undelivered mail , and to update sorting machines and other systems vital to the smooth functioning of the system in the run-up to the November election .
With certain exceptions—see Iowa Governor Kim Reynolds ’ s honorable executive order last week re-enfranchising felons who have completed their sentences—the GOP is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of systematically making it harder for Americans to cast their ballots .
Crippling the USPS is a core part of that project .
Trump ’ s poll numbers are not good—which is why he has spent weeks hammering away at the claim that mail-in ballots open the door to fraud .
This isn ’ t just his usual Noise ; rather , it ’ s a calculated effort to undermine faith in the system and confidence in the results .
And his deliberate attempt to undermine the USPS is , likewise , an @ @ @ @ @ @ @ surrounding the election a self-fulfilling prophecy .
Meanwhile , the slide into rule-by-diktat continues apace .
Trump has issued executive orders that defer tax payments vital to funding Social Security and Medicare and that extend unemployment compensation through questionable means .
He has banned TikTok and WeChat , and has attempted to impose , via executive order , regulatory changes in the broader social media ecosystem .
He has promised to unveil sweeping immigration system changes , also via executive order .
And he has mused about executive orders to limit voting by @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are looking at ways to order the Postal Service not to deliver certain ballots , and to order election officials not to count certain mail-in ballots .
And he has said he is willing to deploy up to 75,000 federal officers to flood Democratic-controlled cities .
Much of this is theatrics , aimed more at public spectacle than significant policy change .
And many of the most inflammatory proposals will likely be blocked by the courts .
Nevertheless , taken as a whole , these orders , and the broader political culture they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ massive shift of power toward the executive , which could make Congress little more than a talking shop .
This isn ’ t unconstitutional so much as extra-constitutional .
It is an attempt to rule without any regard for limits on presidential power .
These actions are disconcertingly reminiscent of the Rome of Julius Caesar , before the formal crowning of emperors , when a series of strongmen effectively neutered a chattering-class Senate .
And despite words of discomfort from Nebraska Senator Ben Sasse , who called Trump ’ s executive orders “ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the GOP is once again abetting Trump—happy to pass the buck to the White House on how to aid the public in response to the pandemic and , more generally , hoping to embarrass Democrats by pitching Trump as a leader able and willing to untie the Gordian knot of a gridlocked Congress .
Trump—who castigated President Obama for executive overreach—is now using executive power in a sweeping manner that no other president has previously attempted .
He is modeling himself on autocrats who reign by fiat , unencumbered by constitutional and legislative @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is bluster ; but there ’ s enough meat on these demagogic bones to merit deep concern .
That ’ s this week ’ s Signal .
Stay healthy , stay energized , and keep on fighting like hell to drum Trump ’ s thugocracy out of power .

With the November election barely 80 days away, Trump is ramping up his efforts to sabotage the country’s political systems: the checks and balances between executive, legislative and judiciary; and the processes by which elections are held and votes tallied.
The Signal this week is America’s escalating democracy crisis.
Witness: Despite the Supreme Court ruling last year prohibiting the Census from collecting data on respondents’ immigration status, Trump signed an executive order barring undocumented immigrants from participating, and mandating that undocumented populations not be counted when congressional seats are reapportioned in the wake of the decennial population count.
A politicized Census Bureau is being urged to rush through completion of this year’s Census before hard-to-reach populations (read: poor, nonwhite, and non–English speaking) have been successfully canvassed and counted; to use secretive modeling programs, based on data from the Social Security Administration and other agencies, to guesstimate the number of undocumented immigrants in each state and region at the back end of the Census process; and to then use those numbers—which will be certified by Congress before the inauguration of the next president and the swearing in of the next Congress—as the raw material for a reapportionment of congressional seats clearly designed to negatively impact California and other progressive states with large numbers of immigrants. More Signal:Noise The US Chamber of Commerce Says Trump Is Bad for Business Sasha Abramsky Trump Is Flailing, and the Country Is Paying the Price Sasha Abramsky
Make no mistake, this is gerrymandering on a national scale, using a politicized Census Bureau to do Trump’s and the GOP’s dirty work.
A similar thing is happening with the US Postal Service, where a political appointee, Louis DeJoy, is now in charge. Postmaster General DeJoy is purging its senior ranks, and—following a GOP Senate and White House blockade of additional funding for the service—refusing to pay postal workers overtime, to clear backlogs of undelivered mail, and to update sorting machines and other systems vital to the smooth functioning of the system in the run-up to the November election.
With certain exceptions—see Iowa Governor Kim Reynolds’s honorable executive order last week re-enfranchising felons who have completed their sentences—the GOP is now fully on board with the project of systematically making it harder for Americans to cast their ballots. Crippling the USPS is a core part of that project. Popular "swipe left below to view more authors"Swipe → The Evisceration of a Public University The Evisceration of a Public University Lisa M. Corrigan The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks Chris Lehmann “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash Dave Zirin A Grim Chronicle of Trump’s Corrupt Public Life A Grim Chronicle of Trump’s Corrupt Public Life Chris Lehmann Popular "swipe left below to view more authors"Swipe → The Evisceration of a Public University The Evisceration of a Public University Lisa M. Corrigan The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks Chris Lehmann “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash Dave Zirin A Grim Chronicle of Trump’s Corrupt Public Life A Grim Chronicle of Trump’s Corrupt Public Life Chris Lehmann Current Issue View our current issue
Trump’s poll numbers are not good—which is why he has spent weeks hammering away at the claim that mail-in ballots open the door to fraud. This isn’t just his usual Noise; rather, it’s a calculated effort to undermine faith in the system and confidence in the results. And his deliberate attempt to undermine the USPS is, likewise, an effort to make his predictions of chaos surrounding the election a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Meanwhile, the slide into rule-by-diktat continues apace. Trump has issued executive orders that defer tax payments vital to funding Social Security and Medicare and that extend unemployment compensation through questionable means. He has banned TikTok and WeChat, and has attempted to impose, via executive order, regulatory changes in the broader social media ecosystem. He has promised to unveil sweeping immigration system changes, also via executive order. And he has mused about executive orders to limit voting by mail, with aides reporting that they are looking at ways to order the Postal Service not to deliver certain ballots, and to order election officials not to count certain mail-in ballots. And he has said he is willing to deploy up to 75,000 federal officers to flood Democratic-controlled cities.
Much of this is theatrics, aimed more at public spectacle than significant policy change. And many of the most inflammatory proposals will likely be blocked by the courts. Nevertheless, taken as a whole, these orders, and the broader political culture they seek to create, are attempting a massive shift of power toward the executive, which could make Congress little more than a talking shop. This isn’t unconstitutional so much as extra-constitutional. It is an attempt to rule without any regard for limits on presidential power.
These actions are disconcertingly reminiscent of the Rome of Julius Caesar, before the formal crowning of emperors, when a series of strongmen effectively neutered a chattering-class Senate. And despite words of discomfort from Nebraska Senator Ben Sasse, who called Trump’s executive orders “unconstitutional slop,” by and large the GOP is once again abetting Trump—happy to pass the buck to the White House on how to aid the public in response to the pandemic and, more generally, hoping to embarrass Democrats by pitching Trump as a leader able and willing to untie the Gordian knot of a gridlocked Congress.
Trump—who castigated President Obama for executive overreach—is now using executive power in a sweeping manner that no other president has previously attempted. He is modeling himself on autocrats who reign by fiat, unencumbered by constitutional and legislative limits. Sure, much of this is bluster; but there’s enough meat on these demagogic bones to merit deep concern.
That’s this week’s Signal. Stay healthy, stay energized, and keep on fighting like hell to drum Trump’s thugocracy out of power.


thenation--2020-08-11--The Debate That’s Needed on How to Engage With China—Before It’s Too Late

The cold war with China is on .
In a bellicose speech last month , Secretary of State Mike Pompeo resuscitated the rhetoric of the 20th century Cold War : “ If we want to have a free 21st century and not the Chinese century of which Xi Jinping dreams , the old paradigm of blind engagement with China simply won ’ t get it done , ” he said .
“ The free world must triumph over this new tyranny.
” The Trump administration ’ s 2017 National Security Strategy elevated China and Russia to primary national security threats @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ” power that seeks “ to shape a world antithetical to U.S. values and interests ” while “ attempting to erode American security and prosperity.
” There is transpartisan support for confrontation with China , but the United States ought to consider alternatives to this posture before it is too late .
Not surprisingly in an election involving President Trump , China posturing has been put to partisan purpose .
He has called Joe Biden ’ s political career a “ gift to the Chinese Communist Party.
” ( Meanwhile , Biden ads @ @ @ @ @ @ @ coronavirus , Trump “ didn ’ t get tough ” with China but that “ he got played.
” ) Trump ’ s rhetoric manifests in policy : a US-China military buildup in the South China Sea ; efforts to “ decouple ” economic relations ; targeting Huawei , TikTok , and WeChat ; and blaming Beijing for what the president has called the “ China plague , ” even demanding that Beijing pay for damage inflicted by the coronavirus .
Polls show Americans increasingly consider China a threat .
Read the full @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .

EDITOR’S NOTE: Each week we cross-post an excerpt from Katrina vanden Heuvel’s column at the WashingtonPost.com. Read the full text of Katrina’s column here.
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The cold war with China is on. In a bellicose speech last month, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo resuscitated the rhetoric of the 20th century Cold War: “If we want to have a free 21st century and not the Chinese century of which Xi Jinping dreams, the old paradigm of blind engagement with China simply won’t get it done,” he said. “The free world must triumph over this new tyranny.”
The Trump administration’s 2017 National Security Strategy elevated China and Russia to primary national security threats. It labeled China a “revisionist” power that seeks “to shape a world antithetical to U.S. values and interests” while “attempting to erode American security and prosperity.” There is transpartisan support for confrontation with China, but the United States ought to consider alternatives to this posture before it is too late.
Not surprisingly in an election involving President Trump, China posturing has been put to partisan purpose. He has called Joe Biden’s political career a “gift to the Chinese Communist Party.” (Meanwhile, Biden ads charge that on trade and the novel coronavirus, Trump “didn’t get tough” with China but that “he got played.”) Trump’s rhetoric manifests in policy: a US-China military buildup in the South China Sea; efforts to “decouple” economic relations; targeting Huawei, TikTok, and WeChat; and blaming Beijing for what the president has called the “China plague,” even demanding that Beijing pay for damage inflicted by the coronavirus. Polls show Americans increasingly consider China a threat.
Read the full text of Katrina’s column here.


Presidential Diagnosis

He tweets wacko theories .
He rants and he raves .
His language decay is steady .
The question is @ @ @ @ @ apart— Or was he apart already ?

This article appears in the August 24/31, 2020 issue.
He tweets wacko theories. He rants and he raves.
His language decay is steady.
The question is asked: Is he falling apart—
Or was he apart already?


Grief in Florida

’ Tis the times ’ plague , when madmen lead the blind… ort yers , la.—The term 2020 is associated with visual acuity , but chronologically 2020 has been a year of blindsiding trauma .
I have witnessed and survived a plague before , that one ignored by Reagan ’ s White House when I lived in Greenwich Village from 1977 to ’ 88 .
AIDS took 34 friends , lovers , and colleagues before I stopped counting and fled the city in grief .
Now the plague ’ s name has changed , but the circus of obfuscation for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and death , as the US toll from Covid-19 exceeds 163,000 .
As Covid Slams Us , Elders Want Solidarity , Not Sentiment—or Blame You ’ re a Doc , You ’ ve Got This , but Your Face Shield ’ s Foggy More in this series With death comes grief , and its stages of denial , anger , bargaining , depression , and acceptance—a cycle I see distorted in the chaos around me .
This time , I live in the great state of denial… Florida .
Denial offered a sublime @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the kids came down for Spring Break , and Governor DeSantis held off shutting down beaches and bars until it was almost over , conceding to community leaders and medical experts as Covid cases were starting to multiply .
And so the kids went home—to Connecticut , Illinois , Michigan , New Jersey , New York… The rest is history .
Except , Florida didn ’ t let go of denial ; it reopened for business on May 4 .
When the filter of rose-colored glasses finally fell away to the harsh light @ @ @ @ @ @ @ anger .
Anger takes various irrational forms .
I live in a working-class neighborhood in Lee County .
Here the roads and strip mall lots are dominated by pickup trucks .
Some are shiny , though rarely new .
Others are battered , rusted , their beds littered with McDonald ’ s packaging , crushed cans , tools , everything pushed to a corner and held in place by a tire .
Virtually all bear insignia—the flag , the Christian fish , Trump/Pence 2020 , the badge of some branch of the armed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not a fully stocked gun rack mounted inside across the rear window .
Subtlety having taken a back seat to bold statement in recent months , Confederate symbols , also common , have graduated from four-by-six-inch decals to four-by-six-foot flags , snapping crisply in the wind .
This is still an agricultural region .
Tomatoes are a prime commodity , with other warm-weather crops .
Harvesting depends on migrant workers , the majority of them Mexican .
Despite their intimate connection to Ag profit and the state ’ s economy , DeSantis publicly @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Florida ’ s spiking infections .
Most of the estimated 150,000 to 200,000 migrants converge in or near Immokalee , in neighboring Collier County , surrounded by cypress swamps .
They live in tight quarters , often in complex multigenerational families , and ride to work in groups .
Hand sanitizer and masks were not made available to them .
Maligned as “ illegals , ” they were denied testing and treatment .
It is no wonder the virus spiked here .
More surprising is that Doctors Without Borders ( MSF ) sent @ @ @ @ @ @ @ treat patients and track the viral spread .
This was not widely publicized .
I learned of it while inquiring about volunteer opportunities .
Had I volunteered with MSF , I would likely have been recruited to accompany the triage unit on to the Democratic Republic of Congo to assist with ongoing Ebola outbreaks .
If I were 20 years younger , I ’ d have gone .
Out of economic and psychological necessity , I took a job with one of the Big Box Essential Businesses , but I am a naturalist @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in a wild setting , captivated by most anything that crosses my path .
I love snakes , even the venomous species , among the most highly evolved of all reptiles .
However , most people react to snakes with a compulsion to kill .
Case in point , my coworker , Joe Z. , ordinarily humble , helpful , affable beyond measure .
Joe and I were talking casually about local wildlife when he declared that he will drive his truck onto the sidewalk if necessary to kill any snake he sees @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are benign unless provoked… , but a sentence scarcely passed my lips when his face contorted and he flew into a rant .
“ They ” are… “ snakes !
They are evil.
” Something about Adam and Eve , and how “ we ” lost everything .
“ Remember the apple , she got it from the snake !
” Faced with his conviction , all I could manage to say was , “ Oh , Joe , I used to like you.
” To which he laughed agreeably , because he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ me later that Joe is deeply mad .
Spiritually , he feels he has been robbed .
He blames snakes and seeks retribution through their wanton execution , but the enemy could be anything : face masks , BLM , Democrats , Republicans , Confederate flags , libtards , Muslims , migrants , vote by mail .
Everywhere across the country , fear and uncertainty opens a Pandora ’ s box of festering vitriol , with causes both real and imagined , crossing all communities , in all directions , and becoming amplified @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Anger having failed to resolve grief , elections—our flawed collective bargaining session where winner takes all—is unlikely to , either .
Bargaining of this sort is more likely to prime the losing side to retaliate .
At work , I have overheard several break-room conversations about how many guns and what types people have , and where they buy ammunition—prices skyrocket weekly—specifically in preparation for the election .
I told a coworker that I don ’ t own a gun .
Shocked , he later texted me an ad for a $ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Good deal !
” The text wasn ’ t as unsettling as his apparent certainty that armed resistance is imminent .
How can we bargain for fairness in a democratic process when civility is off the table , each side bludgeoning the other with demands and threats ?
It is depressing to think about .
Depression is something most of us know in this grief-struck time .
My neighbor burst into tears the other day , standing 10 feet from me , both of us masked .
“ I can ’ t take @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , before disappearing behind her door .
Who isn ’ t depressed about a total disruption of life , many unemployed , facing economic ruin , others shut off from ailing relatives and friends ?
We have become a housebound , home-shopping , home-schooling , Door-Dashing , day-drinking society , castaways from the past , without a clear plan for the future .
Acceptance is the final stage of grief .
But is it in this case ?
Especially when there is a constant flux of people experiencing different stages in different ways @ @ @ @ @ @ @ mere idea of having to accept this as “ the new normal ” sets the cycle anew .
It is no longer a cycle but a perpetual state of social grief .
As a counter to its weight , I retreat to the natural wild , a world I understand , where the laws are fixed , cyclical , seeking balance .
Through the eye of nature , I look for renewal , for calm , and hope to be spared from another hurricane .
Speaking of denial… Scenes From a Pandemic is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , a living memorial to radical journalist Andrew Kopkind , who from 1982–94 was the magazine ’ s chief political writer and analyst .
This series of dispatches from Kopkind ’ s far-flung network of participants , advisers , guests , and friends is edited by Nation contributor and Kopkind program director JoAnn Wypijewski , and appears weekly on thenation.com and kopkind.org .

EDITOR’S NOTE: The Nation believes that helping readers stay informed about the impact of the coronavirus crisis is a form of public service. For that reason, this article, and all of our coronavirus coverage, is now free. Please subscribe to support our writers and staff, and stay healthy.
’Tis the times’ plague, when madmen lead the blind…
—Shakespeare
F ort M yers, F la.—The term 2020 is associated with visual acuity, but chronologically 2020 has been a year of blindsiding trauma. I have witnessed and survived a plague before, that one ignored by Reagan’s White House when I lived in Greenwich Village from 1977 to ’88. AIDS took 34 friends, lovers, and colleagues before I stopped counting and fled the city in grief.
Now the plague’s name has changed, but the circus of obfuscation for political gain remains the same. That and death, as the US toll from Covid-19 exceeds 163,000. Scenes From a Pandemic Untethered, or The Year of Living Virtually Patricia J. Williams The Art of the Meal Mary Lewis Maybe We Shouldn’t Go Back to Normal Bri M.
With death comes grief, and its stages of denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance—a cycle I see distorted in the chaos around me.
This time, I live in the great state of denial… Florida. Denial offered a sublime state of bliss in March, when the kids came down for Spring Break, and Governor DeSantis held off shutting down beaches and bars until it was almost over, conceding to community leaders and medical experts as Covid cases were starting to multiply. And so the kids went home—to Connecticut, Illinois, Michigan, New Jersey, New York… The rest is history.
Except, Florida didn’t let go of denial; it reopened for business on May 4. When the filter of rose-colored glasses finally fell away to the harsh light of reality, blissful ignorance turned to anger.
Anger takes various irrational forms. I live in a working-class neighborhood in Lee County. Here the roads and strip mall lots are dominated by pickup trucks. Some are shiny, though rarely new. Others are battered, rusted, their beds littered with McDonald’s packaging, crushed cans, tools, everything pushed to a corner and held in place by a tire. Virtually all bear insignia—the flag, the Christian fish, Trump/Pence 2020, the badge of some branch of the armed services, an AK47 decal, if not a fully stocked gun rack mounted inside across the rear window. Subtlety having taken a back seat to bold statement in recent months, Confederate symbols, also common, have graduated from four-by-six-inch decals to four-by-six-foot flags, snapping crisply in the wind.
This is still an agricultural region. Tomatoes are a prime commodity, with other warm-weather crops. Harvesting depends on migrant workers, the majority of them Mexican. Despite their intimate connection to Ag profit and the state’s economy, DeSantis publicly echoes Trump in blaming farm workers for Florida’s spiking infections. Popular "swipe left below to view more authors"Swipe → The Evisceration of a Public University The Evisceration of a Public University Lisa M. Corrigan The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks Chris Lehmann “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash Dave Zirin A Grim Chronicle of Trump’s Corrupt Public Life A Grim Chronicle of Trump’s Corrupt Public Life Chris Lehmann Popular "swipe left below to view more authors"Swipe → The Evisceration of a Public University The Evisceration of a Public University Lisa M. Corrigan The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks Chris Lehmann “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash Dave Zirin A Grim Chronicle of Trump’s Corrupt Public Life A Grim Chronicle of Trump’s Corrupt Public Life Chris Lehmann
Most of the estimated 150,000 to 200,000 migrants converge in or near Immokalee, in neighboring Collier County, surrounded by cypress swamps. They live in tight quarters, often in complex multigenerational families, and ride to work in groups. Hand sanitizer and masks were not made available to them. Maligned as “illegals,” they were denied testing and treatment. It is no wonder the virus spiked here. More surprising is that Doctors Without Borders (MSF) sent a triage unit to Immokalee to help treat patients and track the viral spread. This was not widely publicized. I learned of it while inquiring about volunteer opportunities. Had I volunteered with MSF, I would likely have been recruited to accompany the triage unit on to the Democratic Republic of Congo to assist with ongoing Ebola outbreaks. If I were 20 years younger, I’d have gone. Current Issue View our current issue
Out of economic and psychological necessity, I took a job with one of the Big Box Essential Businesses, but I am a naturalist at heart, most content when immersed in a wild setting, captivated by most anything that crosses my path. I love snakes, even the venomous species, among the most highly evolved of all reptiles. However, most people react to snakes with a compulsion to kill. Case in point, my coworker, Joe Z., ordinarily humble, helpful, affable beyond measure. Joe and I were talking casually about local wildlife when he declared that he will drive his truck onto the sidewalk if necessary to kill any snake he sees.
I tried reasoning, most snakes are benign unless provoked…, but a sentence scarcely passed my lips when his face contorted and he flew into a rant. “They” are… “snakes! They are evil.” Something about Adam and Eve, and how “we” lost everything. “Remember the apple, she got it from the snake!” Faced with his conviction, all I could manage to say was, “Oh, Joe, I used to like you.” To which he laughed agreeably, because he thought I was joking.
It struck me later that Joe is deeply mad. Spiritually, he feels he has been robbed. He blames snakes and seeks retribution through their wanton execution, but the enemy could be anything: face masks, BLM, Democrats, Republicans, Confederate flags, libtards, Muslims, migrants, vote by mail. Everywhere across the country, fear and uncertainty opens a Pandora’s box of festering vitriol, with causes both real and imagined, crossing all communities, in all directions, and becoming amplified as we approach November’s elections.
Anger having failed to resolve grief, elections—our flawed collective bargaining session where winner takes all—is unlikely to, either.
Bargaining of this sort is more likely to prime the losing side to retaliate. At work, I have overheard several break-room conversations about how many guns and what types people have, and where they buy ammunition—prices skyrocket weekly—specifically in preparation for the election. I told a coworker that I don’t own a gun. Shocked, he later texted me an ad for a $359 Smith & Wesson .38: “Good deal!” The text wasn’t as unsettling as his apparent certainty that armed resistance is imminent. How can we bargain for fairness in a democratic process when civility is off the table, each side bludgeoning the other with demands and threats? It is depressing to think about.
Depression is something most of us know in this grief-struck time. My neighbor burst into tears the other day, standing 10 feet from me, both of us masked. “I can’t take it anymore,” she kept saying, before disappearing behind her door. Who isn’t depressed about a total disruption of life, many unemployed, facing economic ruin, others shut off from ailing relatives and friends? We have become a housebound, home-shopping, home-schooling, Door-Dashing, day-drinking society, castaways from the past, without a clear plan for the future.
Acceptance is the final stage of grief. But is it in this case? Especially when there is a constant flux of people experiencing different stages in different ways, with varying frequencies. When the mere idea of having to accept this as “the new normal” sets the cycle anew.
It is no longer a cycle but a perpetual state of social grief.
As a counter to its weight, I retreat to the natural wild, a world I understand, where the laws are fixed, cyclical, seeking balance. Through the eye of nature, I look for renewal, for calm, and hope to be spared from another hurricane. Speaking of denial…
Scenes From a Pandemic is a collaboration between The Nation and Kopkind, a living memorial to radical journalist Andrew Kopkind, who from 1982–94 was the magazine’s chief political writer and analyst. This series of dispatches from Kopkind’s far-flung network of participants, advisers, guests, and friends is edited by Nation contributor and Kopkind program director JoAnn Wypijewski, and appears weekly on thenation.com and kopkind.org.


thenation--2020-08-12--Ending Mass Incarceration Is Only the Beginning

The cry to end mass incarceration has become something of a bipartisan catchphrase in the last decade .
Conservative stalwarts like Newt Gingrich and Grover Norquist have decried the criminal justice system ’ s excesses in such unlikely forums as Ava Duvernay ’ s documentary 13th , and the Koch brothers have partnered with the Center for American Progress to create the Coalition for Public Safety , the largest bipartisan criminal justice reform organization in the United States .
At a glance , criminal justice reform seems like one of the few areas in which people from across the political @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the total prison population has only seen modest declines since its peak 2009 .
But mass incarceration is not the only way in which people ’ s lives are upended by the justice system .
About 4.5 million people are on some form of community supervision , which increasingly includes restrictive electronic monitoring that can prevent people from being able to buy groceries or attend their children ’ s sports events .
The proliferation of data-driven policing and gang databases have also placed entire communities under the eye of the state with little @ @ @ @ @ @ @ These alternatives to prison often fuel incarceration , the exact outcome they are supposed to prevent .
In 2016 , at least 168,000 people were imprisoned not for new crimes but because they had violated an element of their parole or probation agreement .
As Victoria Law and Maya Schenwar explain in their new book Prison by Any Other Name , reducing our reliance on incarceration will not inexorably lead to a less punitive , restrictive , or retributive justice system .
“ Working for real freedom , ” they argue , “ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of its interconnected manifestations.
” In their book , Law and Schenwar challenge the assumption that there must be a place society sends , isolates , and ultimately disposes of its undesirables , and they make a case for not only abolishing prisons but also building a world in which no person is faced with the threat of state punishment , surveillance , or control .
aniel ernandez : You both have been writing about prisons and the legal system for a long time .
How did you decide that now was the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ictoria aw : Maya is the editor of TruthOut , and I ’ ve been writing for the site about issues of incarceration since 2011 .
We both noticed an alarming trend : People were talking about criminal justice reform and decreasing the number of people in jails and prisons , but what was being proposed as alternatives to incarceration in buildings looked alarmingly like incarceration , except that it expanded into peoples ’ homes and communities .
DF : In your book , you discuss how many of today ’ s “ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ better for anyone .
They ’ re not enhancing public safety .
They ’ re not creating accountability .
They ’ re not providing opportunities for rehabilitation or healing .
How should we distinguish between reforms that actually chip away at the prison state and those that are repackaging punishment and surveillance in new ways ?
aya chenwar : Something we really try to emphasize in our book is that we should be suspicious of reforms that operate through a logic of replacement .
For example , with electronic monitoring , we ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ still want to criminalize and arrest people , and we ’ re still going to assign people to the same courts and sentence them , except it ’ s going to be electronic monitoring as opposed to a prison sentence.
” And what we see with these replacement systems is that they do a lot of the same things as prisons .
They overwhelmingly target Black people , Indigenous people , other people of color , low-income people , trans people , queer people , drug users .
They ’ re still confining @ @ @ @ @ @ @ re still surveilling people and controlling people .
They ’ re still operating by all these same principles ; they ’ re just not actual buildings called prisons .
And it ’ s not just people who otherwise would have been in prison who are being shackled with electronic monitoring .
It ’ s also people who might have otherwise just gotten probation or not been under the state ’ s control at all .
Maybe they would have had their charges dropped .
But since there ’ s this handy alternative , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ physical control of the state , that ’ s the route that ’ s taken .
DF : One of my takeaways from reading your book was how doing nothing—or doing less—when it comes to law enforcement can sometimes be the best course of action .
I also came away with the sense that much of what passes for innovation in criminal justice circles is not very novel .
What did you take away from those findings , and how did they influence the way you see today ’ s reforms ?
‘ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ & A With Alex S. Vitale on Defunding the Police Why JPMorgan Chase Should Give $ 1 Billion to Black Neighborhoods in Chicago VL : I think it ’ s helpful to think about a question Angela Davis posed recently : “ Does it make sense to reform an institution that began as a reform ?
” Prisons were a response to capital punishment , flogging , and other violent punishment for acts that were construed as crime .
Taking away a person ’ s liberty and sticking them in an overcrowded prison @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was seen as a reform .
So if we keep that in mind , we can think of reform as tinkering around the edges of an institution that is punitive at heart , and doesn ’ t necessarily address why people did what they did .
DF : There have been many conversations around abolition lately , and a wide-ranging discussion on what that term means .
Do you feel like there ’ s support for the changes that you ’ re advocating in your book ?
Where do you see the movement @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ?
MS : We ’ re in a really , really exciting moment , and one that has happened very quickly , even though it ’ s building on a foundation that ’ s been growing for decades , thanks to the work of Black organizers , particularly Black women , who have been paving the way for this abolitionist moment for a long time .
When you mentioned earlier the idea of the state doing less , we are advocating in our book for the state to do less in terms of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and policing .
We ’ re asking for a massive relinquishing of control .
But we ’ re not saying the state has no responsibilities .
We ’ re actually asking : “ Where should our resources be going ?
What are things that cultivate not only safety but also well-being ?
What are things that allow people and communities to thrive ?
” The conversations that we ’ re seeing now around what real health care looks like is part of the abolition .
Asking , “ How do we address systemic @ @ @ @ @ @ @ our educational system ?
” is abolition .
Environmental justice is abolition .
Doing work around overtime pay for farm workers is abolition .
All of these things are abolition , and that ’ s coming into the conversation right now because people are saying , “ If not the police , then what ?
” And as Ruth Wilson Gilmore says , the answer is “ everything.
” We need to be thinking about building a radically different society .
I think the energy around that right now is not going to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that opens the door to a vision of a different society .
DF : Something some people struggle with when it comes to thinking about transformative justice frameworks is the possibility that someone who has been harmed might desire a punitive or retributive response .
How do you reply to those who want to see that impulse acted upon ?
VL : One of the pitfalls of relying on prisons and punishment as our main forms of dealing with harm and violence is that it shrinks the imagination .
People think that there @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : You rely on policing and prisons or you do nothing .
And that is not the case .
Police and prisons come in after harm has been done , and they don ’ t necessarily address harm , either .
There are plenty of statistics on the numbers of rapes that are reported to police departments , and only a tiny fraction are actually investigated , let alone referred to prosecution ( and prosecutors only prosecute a fraction of those cases ) .
It ’ s like an inverse pyramid : The @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in Black communities and other communities of color , is often under-reported to the police .
Police often don ’ t take them seriously .
They don ’ t actually investigate or close cases .
So police and prisons don ’ t necessarily even keep people safe or provide the retribution or vengeance that we think victims want .
I also want to be clear : Abolition does not mean there aren ’ t consequences .
But you can have a consequence that is not ripping somebody away from their family and community @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in a cage , and subjecting them to brutality .
DF : There seems to be a feeling among certain commentators that abolishing the police or abolishing prisons is tantamount to abandoning communities and dismissing the need for public safety entirely .
How do you push back against that impulse ?
MS : I think that when we talk about taking away the police [ in that scenario ] , it erases the ways in which communities have already been abandoned .
The most policed communities are low-income Black and Indigenous communities , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of these resources that are basic for survival are scarce .
When we think about abolition , we ’ re thinking about abundance , not scarcity .
We are thinking about what can foster the survival of people and communities , what can actually make people live and thrive together .
And the police are not included , because police are violent .
They are part of the problem , they ’ re actually working against health , working against well-being , working against safety .
Sometimes the conversations around taking away police @ @ @ @ @ @ @ how we create collective safety .
Like what are the measures that we can take that will actually address violence ?
Because the police aren ’ t doing that .
And that ’ s something that we talk about in the final chapters of the book .
We look at all kinds of community projects around the country that are taking on these questions : How do you deal with violence ?
How do you build safety ?
Ejeris Dixon , someone we interviewed for our book , says that safety is a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a thing that is given to us .
It ’ s something that we all have to work on .
DF : In the closing section of the book , you return to a quote from Ruth Wilson Gilmore about how abolition is not aspirational but an adventure .
What does that mean to you ?
MS : I think what Ruthie is saying is that people are already doing abolition .
Sometimes , abolition is spoken of as a dream .
The people who dismiss it say , “ You know , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hopefully , in the future , we ’ ll have a society in which we can abolish prison and police .
But we can only imagine it .
And what Gilmore was saying , and what a lot of people we interviewed for the book affirmed , is that people are already doing abolition in all kinds of different ways .
They ’ re practicing new forms of building safety or old forms of building safety that don ’ t involve the police , they ’ re being creative and working on different @ @ @ @ @ @ @ work for them .
We ’ ve seen amazing abolitionist work happening over the past few months in terms of people ’ s responses to Covid-19 and mutual aid networks cropping up in all kinds of communities .
People are getting to know their neighbors and are working together , building community in ways that are completely separate from police and prisons .

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The cry to end mass incarceration has become something of a bipartisan catchphrase in the last decade. Conservative stalwarts like Newt Gingrich and Grover Norquist have decried the criminal justice system’s excesses in such unlikely forums as Ava Duvernay’s documentary 13th, and the Koch brothers have partnered with the Center for American Progress to create the Coalition for Public Safety, the largest bipartisan criminal justice reform organization in the United States. At a glance, criminal justice reform seems like one of the few areas in which people from across the political spectrum can find agreement, even if the total prison population has only seen modest declines since its peak in 2009.
But mass incarceration is not the only way in which people’s lives are upended by the justice system. About 4.5 million people are on some form of community supervision, which increasingly includes restrictive electronic monitoring that can prevent people from being able to buy groceries or attend their children’s sports events. The proliferation of data-driven policing and gang databases have also placed entire communities under the eye of the state with little in the way of due process.
These alternatives to prison often fuel incarceration, the exact outcome they are supposed to prevent. In 2016, at least 168,000 people were imprisoned not for new crimes but because they had violated an element of their parole or probation agreement. As Victoria Law and Maya Schenwar explain in their new book Prison by Any Other Name, reducing our reliance on incarceration will not inexorably lead to a less punitive, restrictive, or retributive justice system. “Working for real freedom,” they argue, “means resisting not only incarceration but all of its interconnected manifestations.” In their book, Law and Schenwar challenge the assumption that there must be a place society sends, isolates, and ultimately disposes of its undesirables, and they make a case for not only abolishing prisons but also building a world in which no person is faced with the threat of state punishment, surveillance, or control.
—Daniel Fernandez
D aniel F ernandez: You both have been writing about prisons and the legal system for a long time. How did you decide that now was the time to collaborate on a book?
V ictoria L aw: Maya is the editor of TruthOut, and I’ve been writing for the site about issues of incarceration since 2011. We both noticed an alarming trend: People were talking about criminal justice reform and decreasing the number of people in jails and prisons, but what was being proposed as alternatives to incarceration in buildings looked alarmingly like incarceration, except that it expanded into peoples’ homes and communities. Popular "swipe left below to view more authors"Swipe → The Evisceration of a Public University The Evisceration of a Public University Lisa M. Corrigan The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks Chris Lehmann “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash Dave Zirin A Grim Chronicle of Trump’s Corrupt Public Life A Grim Chronicle of Trump’s Corrupt Public Life Chris Lehmann Popular "swipe left below to view more authors"Swipe → The Evisceration of a Public University The Evisceration of a Public University Lisa M. Corrigan The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks The Patronizing Moralism of David Brooks Chris Lehmann “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash “The Blind Side” Was Always Trash Dave Zirin A Grim Chronicle of Trump’s Corrupt Public Life A Grim Chronicle of Trump’s Corrupt Public Life Chris Lehmann
DF: In your book, you discuss how many of today’s “reforms” are not actually making things better for anyone. They’re not enhancing public safety. They’re not creating accountability. They’re not providing opportunities for rehabilitation or healing. How should we distinguish between reforms that actually chip away at the prison state and those that are repackaging punishment and surveillance in new ways? Current Issue View our current issue
M aya S chenwar: Something we really try to emphasize in our book is that we should be suspicious of reforms that operate through a logic of replacement. For example, with electronic monitoring, we’re saying, “OK, we still want to criminalize and arrest people, and we’re still going to assign people to the same courts and sentence them, except it’s going to be electronic monitoring as opposed to a prison sentence.” And what we see with these replacement systems is that they do a lot of the same things as prisons. They overwhelmingly target Black people, Indigenous people, other people of color, low-income people, trans people, queer people, drug users. They’re still confining people in physical spaces. They’re still surveilling people and controlling people. They’re still operating by all these same principles; they’re just not actual buildings called prisons.
And it’s not just people who otherwise would have been in prison who are being shackled with electronic monitoring. It’s also people who might have otherwise just gotten probation or not been under the state’s control at all. Maybe they would have had their charges dropped. But since there’s this handy alternative, which still allows them to be under physical control of the state, that’s the route that’s taken.
DF: One of my takeaways from reading your book was how doing nothing—or doing less—when it comes to law enforcement can sometimes be the best course of action. I also came away with the sense that much of what passes for innovation in criminal justice circles is not very novel. What did you take away from those findings, and how did they influence the way you see today’s reforms? The Q&A To Stop Anti-Trans Legislation, Abolish the Settler State Tal Milovina ‘Starve the Beast’: A Q&A With Alex S. Vitale on Defunding the Police Zachary Siegel Why JPMorgan Chase Should Give $1 Billion to Black Neighborhoods in Chicago Daniel Fernandez
VL: I think it’s helpful to think about a question Angela Davis posed recently: “Does it make sense to reform an institution that began as a reform?” Prisons were a response to capital punishment, flogging, and other violent punishment for acts that were construed as crime. Taking away a person’s liberty and sticking them in an overcrowded prison cell or in a solitary confinement cell was seen as a reform. So if we keep that in mind, we can think of reform as tinkering around the edges of an institution that is punitive at heart, and doesn’t necessarily address why people did what they did.
DF: There have been many conversations around abolition lately, and a wide-ranging discussion on what that term means. Do you feel like there’s support for the changes that you’re advocating in your book? Where do you see the movement going in the next couple of years?
MS: We’re in a really, really exciting moment, and one that has happened very quickly, even though it’s building on a foundation that’s been growing for decades, thanks to the work of Black organizers, particularly Black women, who have been paving the way for this abolitionist moment for a long time. When you mentioned earlier the idea of the state doing less, we are advocating in our book for the state to do less in terms of their surveillance, control, punishment, and policing. We’re asking for a massive relinquishing of control. But we’re not saying the state has no responsibilities. We’re actually asking: “Where should our resources be going? What are things that cultivate not only safety but also well-being? What are things that allow people and communities to thrive?”
The conversations that we’re seeing now around what real health care looks like is part of the abolition. Asking, “How do we address systemic inequalities and injustices that are baked into our educational system?” is abolition. Environmental justice is abolition. Doing work around overtime pay for farm workers is abolition. All of these things are abolition, and that’s coming into the conversation right now because people are saying, “If not the police, then what?” And as Ruth Wilson Gilmore says, the answer is “everything.” We need to be thinking about building a radically different society. I think the energy around that right now is not going to go away. It’s something that opens the door to a vision of a different society.
DF: Something some people struggle with when it comes to thinking about transformative justice frameworks is the possibility that someone who has been harmed might desire a punitive or retributive response. How do you reply to those who want to see that impulse acted upon?
VL: One of the pitfalls of relying on prisons and punishment as our main forms of dealing with harm and violence is that it shrinks the imagination. People think that there are just two choices on the table: You rely on policing and prisons or you do nothing. And that is not the case.
Police and prisons come in after harm has been done, and they don’t necessarily address harm, either. There are plenty of statistics on the numbers of rapes that are reported to police departments, and only a tiny fraction are actually investigated, let alone referred to prosecution (and prosecutors only prosecute a fraction of those cases). It’s like an inverse pyramid: The amount of harm that happens, particularly in Black communities and other communities of color, is often under-reported to the police. Police often don’t take them seriously. They don’t actually investigate or close cases. So police and prisons don’t necessarily even keep people safe or provide the retribution or vengeance that we think victims want.
I also want to be clear: Abolition does not mean there aren’t consequences. But you can have a consequence that is not ripping somebody away from their family and community for years on end, sticking them in a cage, and subjecting them to brutality.
DF: There seems to be a feeling among certain commentators that abolishing the police or abolishing prisons is tantamount to abandoning communities and dismissing the need for public safety entirely. How do you push back against that impulse?
MS: I think that when we talk about taking away the police [in that scenario], it erases the ways in which communities have already been abandoned. The most policed communities are low-income Black and Indigenous communities, low-income communities of color, where all of these resources that are basic for survival are scarce.
When we think about abolition, we’re thinking about abundance, not scarcity. We are thinking about what can foster the survival of people and communities, what can actually make people live and thrive together. And the police are not included, because police are violent. They are part of the problem, they’re actually working against health, working against well-being, working against safety.
Sometimes the conversations around taking away police as being like abandonment are really about how we create collective safety. Like what are the measures that we can take that will actually address violence? Because the police aren’t doing that. And that’s something that we talk about in the final chapters of the book. We look at all kinds of community projects around the country that are taking on these questions: How do you deal with violence? How do you build safety? Ejeris Dixon, someone we interviewed for our book, says that safety is a practice. It’s not just a thing that is given to us. It’s something that we all have to work on.
DF: In the closing section of the book, you return to a quote from Ruth Wilson Gilmore about how abolition is not aspirational but an adventure. What does that mean to you?
MS: I think what Ruthie is saying is that people are already doing abolition. Sometimes, abolition is spoken of as a dream. The people who dismiss it say, “You know, that would be great.” Like, hopefully, in the future, we’ll have a society in which we can abolish prison and police. But we can only imagine it. And what Gilmore was saying, and what a lot of people we interviewed for the book affirmed, is that people are already doing abolition in all kinds of different ways. They’re practicing new forms of building safety or old forms of building safety that don’t involve the police, they’re being creative and working on different projects for how to make their communities work for them.
We’ve seen amazing abolitionist work happening over the past few months in terms of people’s responses to Covid-19 and mutual aid networks cropping up in all kinds of communities. People are getting to know their neighbors and are working together, building community in ways that are completely separate from police and prisons.