dailysignal--2020-07-06--How Extended COVID-19 Lockdowns Pose a Serious Threat to Mental Health

Americans ’ mental and emotional health can ’ t be ignored in the fight against COVID-19 .
Dr. Elinore McCance-Katz , assistant secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services for mental health and substance use , joins the show to explain the physiological effects of extended isolation .
McCance-Katz is both an epidemiologist and a psychiatrist .
That enables her to have a uniquely holistic perspective about the most effective way to protect the whole health of Americans during the pandemic .
We also read your letters to the editor and share the words of President Ronald Reagan @ @ @ @ @ @ @ he reminded Americans of where we came from and the importance of unity to maintain our national strength .
Listen to the podcast below or read the lightly edited transcript .
“ The Daily Signal Podcast ” is available on Ricochet , Apple Podcasts , Pippa , Google Play , and Stitcher .
All of our podcasts can be found at DailySignal.com/podcasts .
If you like what you hear , please leave a review .
You can also leave us a message at 202-608-6205 or write us at [ email protected ] Enjoy @ @ @ @ @ @ @ am joined by Dr. Elinore McCance-Katz , assistant secretary … for mental health and substance use at the Department of Health and Human Services .
Dr. McCance-Katz , thank you so much for being here today .
Dr. Elinore McCance-Katz : I ’ m happy to be here .
Thank you for inviting me .
Allen : You are an epidemiologist , but you ’ re also a psychiatrist , which gives you a very holistic perspective on all the risks of COVID-19 , from infection to … social distancing , and [ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ mental health .
Can you tell us a little bit about your background in both the field of epidemiology and psychiatry , and how your education in both of these fields affects your views of how America should respond to COVID-19 ?
McCance-Katz : Sure .
I started out my graduate career at Yale University .
I attended the Yale School of Public Health , where I got a Ph.D. in infectious disease epidemiology .
Part of the training that I received at Yale was didactics in epidemiology and the study of viral @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in molecular virology .
I have a background in epidemiology as a science and some of the statistical methods to address epidemiological questions .
I wanted a career in clinical research and for many , many years , I have been a clinical researcher prior to coming into federal service , but I decided to go to medical school because I wanted to do research on human pathological conditions and having a medical doctor degree would be helpful with that .
When I went to medical school , I thought I would end @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I became quite interested in psychiatry and in the care and treatment of mental illness and substance use disorders .
I pursued a career in psychiatry and for many years , I worked at the intersection of HIV disease and addiction medicine , specifically opioid addiction and injection drug use .
I spent many years looking at medications development for opioid use disorders .
I also spent many years studying medications that were used to treat HIV disease as well as opioid therapies used to treat opioid use disorder , helping to determine @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the clinical needs of patients so that they would [ have ] the best outcomes in being treated for HIV and opioid use disorder if those conditions co-occurred , which is , unfortunately , not an uncommon situation .
At various times , because of the kind of work I was doing , I provided some consultation in state government and , ultimately , ended up in the position I ’ m in now in federal government .
The issue with coronavirus of course is one that has never been seen before .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ It ’ s a virus that , because it ’ s new , we really don ’ t know its epidemiology .
We don ’ t know a lot of information that is critical to care and treatment of individuals who may become infected , and we don ’ t know the spectrum of what those infections look like , nor do we have complete data on transmissibility of the virus .
What we did know back in February and March was that we had a viral illness that was quite severe and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ were dying from this illness and , while that is leveling off now , continues to the present time .
With that kind of increase in the numbers of people with infections of becoming so ill , they needed hospitalization and in a time when we had to very quickly learn how to care for people , it was necessary to take the actions that were taken at the level of the federal government from President [ Donald ] Trump and within the state governments .
That helped to level off the spread @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , we ’ ve been able to learn a lot about medical care for people .
We ’ ve been able to get testing much more widely available , and that continues to be an issue that ’ s worked on every single day at the Department of Health and Human Services .
We now have a system that ’ s being rapidly put in place to do contact tracing .
I mentioned these things because these are really very standard epidemiological approaches to understanding illnesses and particularly infectious diseases that are now @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and that puts us in a different place in terms of how we look at things going forward .
The other side of that coin , though , is that for millions of Americans , when we say , “ Stay at home , home is safer , ” home is not safer for millions of Americans .
There are millions of Americans who suffer domestic violence .
There are millions of children who suffered child abuse and neglect .
And when our schools are closed and children are at home with their @ @ @ @ @ @ @ being asked to homeschool , things they have never been asked to do , this puts vulnerable children at great risk .
We don ’ t have our usual reporters available .
Our teachers , our school staff , our doctors that would be mandated reporters for these kinds of situations , … they simply aren ’ t seeing those children .
For many people , women and , in some cases , men as well , they are victims of domestic violence and because of stay-at-home orders , they can ’ t @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the abuser .
These are very serious issues and there ’ s a literature … on what the effects of stay-at-home lockdown or quarantine , whatever you ’ d like to call it , what the effects are on people .
What those effects are is that , in as little as nine days , people can develop mental health problems , anxiety , depression , anger .
Anger is one that is mentioned quite frequently , numbing .
People experience trauma .
Some people will develop post-traumatic stress disorder .
And these @ @ @ @ @ @ @ don ’ t know is what is the effect of having stay-at-home orders or situations where we are prohibiting people from going about their daily activities , which includes , for millions of Americans , job loss and income loss .
What are the effects of doing this for two to three months in some places still with no end in sight ?
The literature actually doesn ’ t show lockdown that has ever lasted this long , and so we ’ re quite concerned about that .
Particularly , the agency I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Health Services Administration , we are very concerned about the mental health effects on people who are subjected to these very severe policies and who have lost the structure of their lives , the social supports and contacts that keep them going .
We are very concerned about people who have existing mental and substance use disorders who can not get care because care across the country to a great extent has been canceled , at least the in-person piece of it .
Our agency has taken major steps to put telehealth services @ @ @ @ @ @ @ help with mental and substance use disorders .
This is not something that is familiar to much of our practitioners in behavioral health , and the reason for that is because , as the term implies , behavioral health , we do our work by interacting with people .
We want to see our patients .
We want to interact with them .
Usually there are symptoms or behaviors or problems , types of responses that people have that we address through individual settings , through group therapies , through therapeutic mill use @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are ongoing needs .
They are everyday needs , and they aren ’ t getting that care .
We are very concerned about that .
We ’ re concerned about the links between unemployment and suicide .
That ’ s been documented in the literature as well .
We already know that suicide is one of the 10 leading causes of death in the United States before we ever saw coronavirus .
Now , we ’ re very concerned that there will be an increase in suicide deaths because of the additional stressors @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for months on end and for millions of Americans , that lack of assurance that their job will be there for them when they come back or that they ’ ll be able to go back to a full-time job .
One of the things I ’ m hearing from colleagues across the country in my own field is that people ’ s hours are being cut .
They ’ re being laid off .
They ’ re being furloughed .
They ’ re being asked to use their vacation time to cover @ @ @ @ @ @ @ because of the lack of service provision that ’ s going on in the country right now .
While telemedicine is critically important , it can be lifesaving , it ’ s a way of making an acute intervention , it ’ s not going to be ever the full answer .
People need that therapeutic interaction that occurs between others that share similar issues and their clinicians that have the experience of years and training and background to help people to address these kinds conditions .
We ’ re quite concerned about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ fallout from COVID-19 , and that ’ s before thinking about the fact that we have 58 million Americans prior to this virus , 58 million with mental and substance use disorders , many with what we call co-occurring disorders , mental disorders and substance use disorder in the same person .
We know that people who have substance problems usually have problems with more than one substance .
We know that people with substance use disorders , only about 10 % of them get treatment .
That was before coronavirus .
We @ @ @ @ @ @ @ only about 55 % of them get treatment .
That ’ s before coronavirus .
We know that 34 % of people with serious mental illness , that ’ s mental illness that is of a severity that people can not carry out the normal routine daily life functions that the rest of us do because of impairments by their mental illness , 34 % of them get no treatment at all .
That ’ s before coronavirus .
We know that since coronavirus has started , appointments and visits have been stopped @ @ @ @ @ @ @ intensive outpatient services , partial hospital programs , have been stopped .
We know that people are at home bored and stressed , and that alcohol sales have skyrocketed in this country .
We are hearing from the lay press that law enforcement is very reluctant in some states to administer naloxone in an opioid overdose .
If you don ’ t administer naloxone to a person who has overdosed on opioids , they will die , and there ’ s no need for that .
There are safe ways to administer naloxone @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on that right now , but I mentioned all of these things because what it says is that before coronavirus , we had huge gaps in care and huge needs on the part of Americans for care and treatment of mental health issues and substance problems , which are only being exacerbated by COVID-19 .
Allen : Wow , yeah .
Weighty .
Very , very weighty .
Let ’ s talk for just a second about what actually happens in the human brain .
If someone goes weeks or months without meaningful @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ve already been struggling with anxiety or depression or maybe they weren ’ t at all before , but now they ’ re in this place of isolation , are there actually chemical changes that begin to take place in the brain ?
McCance-Katz : There are chemical changes that take place in the brain and these chemical changes have been associated with various types of mental illnesses , such as anxiety disorders , such as depressive disorders , such as post-traumatic stress disorders .
Your brain is involved in stress responses and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of different types of chemicals in the brain that also travel through the body .
When a person experiences stressors that they can not address , situations of isolation and anxiety that they can not change , then those chemicals that stay in balance , which is how all of us go about our daily activities and we are able to manage the normal requirements of our lives because our chemical structures in our brain , are imbalanced .
When that changes , that places a person at risk for developing mental disorders @ @ @ @ @ @ @ imbalances occur , it will take time to rebalance the stress reactions , if you will .
When that happens , a person may need medication treatments , they may need psychotherapeutic intervention , a combination of those kinds of interventions .
Those resources are how we address these kinds of mental illnesses .
But yes , exactly .
This is why I have said that the isolation of the stay-at-home orders are ones that … and again , documented in the literature , in a relatively short amount of time will manifest @ @ @ @ @ @ @ depression , angry outbursts , and behaviors that may go along with those kinds of feelings .
What lies below that are changes that are occurring in the brain and the rest of the body .
Now , not everybody experiences that .
It ’ s important to really point out that most of us are able to cope with even very severe stressors and the resilience of people .
I think I want to make sure people understand that the majority of people will be able to withstand these stresses , but @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are people who just aren ’ t able to .
Some of us are more vulnerable than others to mental disorders and substance use disorders .
These are genetically mediated illnesses and so for that minority of people , which is a sizable number in the millions , but it ’ s still relative to our population , a small number of people , those folks are going to need help .
Allen : Yeah .
McCance-Katz : The thing is , we need to get to them before there is a terrible @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as some kind of behavior that harms others , harms themselves , makes it impossible for them to attend to their physical health needs .
There are any variety of different ways that these symptoms can make themselves known .
Allen : You spoke with the president and a number of other leaders at the White House in May .
What are the recommendations you are offering to national and state leaders right now as it relates to reopening the economy and trying to get life back to some resemblance of normal ?
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ that we have to think about more than viral infection .
We have to think about whole health .
We have to think about the needs of a person in their totality .
We can ’ t just think about the possibility of a viral infection .
What I have said is that if we fail to do that , we will lose many more lives .
We have so many thousands of deaths , over 116,000 deaths related to suicide and drug overdoses .
If you add alcohol into that , some @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of these very preventable conditions .
In addition with COVID , we ’ ve got a situation where people ’ s medical problems are not being addressed .
People aren ’ t getting cancer screenings .
They ’ re not able to see their doctors for existing medical conditions like hypertension , like heart disease , like pulmonary disease , rheumatoid arthritis .
There are many serious medical conditions that we must continue to address , and there is no reason not to do that .
If we fail to do that , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we would see from [ the ] COVID virus .
Allen : Yeah .
McCance-Katz : What I ’ ve said is we have to think about whole health , and we have to think about what we ’ ve learned , and we have learned a lot about this virus .
It ’ s amazing how much we ’ ve learned in a period of three months .
We have learned how to better manage people who do get so ill with the virus that they have to be hospitalized .
We @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Administration-approved ] treatment for very ill people who have coronavirus infection .
We now have increased testing for coronavirus .
Greatly , millions of tests have now been completed , and we are setting up a system in this country that will continue to test regularly for high-risk groups .
We have now put in place contact tracing , and we will be following up [ with ] people to determine who else might have contracted coronavirus when we identify a case .
We now know who the most vulnerable populations are—our elderly @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , those that have significant conditions that affect their overall health—and we need to protect them .
In doing that , we also need to pay attention to the needs of the general public and the general public needs to go back to regular life , but they need to understand that it ’ s safe to do that .
I ’ ve also urged that rather than focusing on deaths that occur from coronavirus—which [ the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention ] has now said are much less and overall , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ cases , are going to be much less than 1 % —we look at the number of people who have had the virus and recover fully , and that number is quite high .
It will be even higher as we do more testing and learn about the great number of people who have had the virus who have had either very mild symptoms or no symptoms .
It ’ s very important not to spend so much time talking about a virus and emphasizing the negative aspects of illness with that virus @ @ @ @ @ @ @ t go about their lives .
I think that our media has done a great job with that , and that ’ s not something that I feel good about saying .
It ’ s time to start talking about the progress we ’ ve made .
It ’ s time to start talking about the fact that almost everyone recovers from this virus and we know who the vulnerable people are , and we can protect them .
If we keep in place good hygiene practices , social distancing , mask-wearing as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we can get back to normal life , and people should feel confident about that .
We should not shut down again because we know how to deal with this problem .
We should send our children to school .
They need to be around other children .
They need social interaction , and they need the opportunity to learn , and they need to be with teachers and others who can tell how their health and mental health is , and let us know if those children need help .
It ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ talking about COVID as though it ’ s a death sentence if people get the virus , it is not , and we go back to normal life because we know how to deal with this as a country .
Allen : Wow .
Thank you so much .
That ’ s so insightful .
And I think your holistic approach is incredibly helpful for perspective .
I want to take just a second and ask you , for those who might be listening and who are thinking , “ You know what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with depression in this season with anxiety , ” and maybe they ’ re concerned about a loved one and a loved one ’ s mental health , do you have any practical tips for things that they can do to get their own brain and mind or a loved one ’ s back to a healthier and better state , so that they can keep living life ?
McCance-Katz : Yes , it ’ s really very important that as much as possible people stay in contact with their loved ones , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do that by telephone , by social media .
It ’ s important for people really to get outdoors , to get some exercise that can be remarkably soothing and helpful .
To the greatest extent possible , keep a daily routine .
It is so difficult for people when they lose their daily structure , as in stay-at-home orders , where your daily activity , get up in the morning , you take a shower , you get dressed , you go to work , you come home , you make dinner @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , your pets , and have your evening activities .
When that ’ s taken away , that is so disorienting for people .
It really takes a toll .
Even people who are able to telework , it takes a toll on them as well and for people who are completely out of work , it is extremely stressful and very difficult to cope with .
Take care of yourself and if you are feeling extremely sad , if your appetite goes off , if you can ’ t sleep , if @ @ @ @ @ @ @ anxiety , it ’ s really important that you seek help , and there are ways to do that .
We have helplines at SAMHSA [ the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration ] .
We have the Suicide Prevention Lifeline .
We have a Disaster Distress Helpline , and we have a National Helpline that helps people to find treatment .
They can talk with a person that will help them to find a treatment outlet , a treatment resource near them .
You can also find SAMHSA resources online at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ help for substance problems .
All you have to do is put in your city , your state , your ZIP code , and you can find resources in your area .
We also have a way of finding mental health services .
It ’ s called findtreatment.samhsa.gov and again , that is a way to find resources for mental health issues .
It ’ s important that people take an inventory of how they ’ re feeling , and if they ’ re having trouble coping , seek help , seek support @ @ @ @ @ @ @ If that isn ’ t enough , then seek professional help .
Allen : We ’ ll be sure to link some of those resources in the show notes for today .
Dr. McCance-Katz , thank you so much for your insight .
It has been incredibly helpful and profound .
We really appreciate your time today .
McCance-Katz : Thank you so much .

Americans’ mental and emotional health can’t be ignored in the fight against COVID-19.
Dr. Elinore McCance-Katz, assistant secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services for mental health and substance use, joins the show to explain the physiological effects of extended isolation.
McCance-Katz is both an epidemiologist and a psychiatrist. That enables her to have a uniquely holistic perspective about the most effective way to protect the whole health of Americans during the pandemic.
We also read your letters to the editor and share the words of President Ronald Reagan on July 4, 1986, as he reminded Americans of where we came from and the importance of unity to maintain our national strength.
Listen to the podcast below or read the lightly edited transcript.
“The Daily Signal Podcast” is available on Ricochet, Apple Podcasts, Pippa, Google Play, and Stitcher. All of our podcasts can be found at DailySignal.com/podcasts. If you like what you hear, please leave a review. You can also leave us a message at 202-608-6205 or write us at letters@dailysignal.com. Enjoy the show!
Virginia Allen: I am joined by Dr. Elinore McCance-Katz, assistant secretary … for mental health and substance use at the Department of Health and Human Services. Dr. McCance-Katz, thank you so much for being here today.
Dr. Elinore McCance-Katz: I’m happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
Allen: You are an epidemiologist, but you’re also a psychiatrist, which gives you a very holistic perspective on all the risks of COVID-19, from infection to … social distancing, and [what] those quarantine measures mean for mental health.
Can you tell us a little bit about your background in both the field of epidemiology and psychiatry, and how your education in both of these fields affects your views of how America should respond to COVID-19?
McCance-Katz: Sure. I started out my graduate career at Yale University. I attended the Yale School of Public Health, where I got a Ph.D. in infectious disease epidemiology.
Part of the training that I received at Yale was didactics in epidemiology and the study of viral infections. I do have a background in molecular virology. I have a background in epidemiology as a science and some of the statistical methods to address epidemiological questions.
I wanted a career in clinical research and for many, many years, I have been a clinical researcher prior to coming into federal service, but I decided to go to medical school because I wanted to do research on human pathological conditions and having a medical doctor degree would be helpful with that.
When I went to medical school, I thought I would end up going into infectious diseases, but I became quite interested in psychiatry and in the care and treatment of mental illness and substance use disorders.
COMMENTARY BY
Rachel Greszler
Rachel Greszler is research fellow in economics, budget, and entitlements in the Grover M. Hermann Center for the Federal Budget, of the Institute for Economic Freedom, at The Heritage Foundation. Read her research.
For a second month in a row, the U.S. economy gained a record number of jobs.
Following job gains of 2.7 million in May, the economy added 4.8 million more jobs in June.
And even as the labor force grew by 1.7 million workers, the unemployment rate fell by 2.2 percentage points, from 13.3% to 11.1%.
While unemployment is still high, the faster-than-expected turnaround and record gains show the resiliency of the American economy and prove that this is not another Great Recession.
The American economy just added more jobs in two months than it did in the 46 months after the height of unemployment during the Great Recession.
>>> What’s the best way for America to reopen and return to business? The National Coronavirus Recovery Commission, a project of The Heritage Foundation, assembled America’s top thinkers to figure that out. So far, it has made more than 260 recommendations. Learn more here.
I pursued a career in psychiatry and for many years, I worked at the intersection of HIV disease and addiction medicine, specifically opioid addiction and injection drug use. I spent many years looking at medications development for opioid use disorders.
I also spent many years studying medications that were used to treat HIV disease as well as opioid therapies used to treat opioid use disorder, helping to determine what the best ways were to consider the clinical needs of patients so that they would [have] the best outcomes in being treated for HIV and opioid use disorder if those conditions co-occurred, which is, unfortunately, not an uncommon situation.
At various times, because of the kind of work I was doing, I provided some consultation in state government and, ultimately, ended up in the position I’m in now in federal government.
The issue with coronavirus of course is one that has never been seen before. It’s a new virus. It’s a virus that, because it’s new, we really don’t know its epidemiology. We don’t know a lot of information that is critical to care and treatment of individuals who may become infected, and we don’t know the spectrum of what those infections look like, nor do we have complete data on transmissibility of the virus.
What we did know back in February and March was that we had a viral illness that was quite severe and making many people so sick that they were dying from this illness and, while that is leveling off now, continues to the present time.
With that kind of increase in the numbers of people with infections of becoming so ill, they needed hospitalization and in a time when we had to very quickly learn how to care for people, it was necessary to take the actions that were taken at the level of the federal government from President [Donald] Trump and within the state governments.
That helped to level off the spread of the virus and during that time, we’ve been able to learn a lot about medical care for people.
We’ve been able to get testing much more widely available, and that continues to be an issue that’s worked on every single day at the Department of Health and Human Services. We now have a system that’s being rapidly put in place to do contact tracing.
I mentioned these things because these are really very standard epidemiological approaches to understanding illnesses and particularly infectious diseases that are now up and running in this country, and that puts us in a different place in terms of how we look at things going forward.
The other side of that coin, though, is that for millions of Americans, when we say, “Stay at home, home is safer,” home is not safer for millions of Americans.
There are millions of Americans who suffer domestic violence. There are millions of children who suffered child abuse and neglect. And when our schools are closed and children are at home with their caretakers 24/7, and their caretakers are being asked to homeschool, things they have never been asked to do, this puts vulnerable children at great risk.
We don’t have our usual reporters available. Our teachers, our school staff, our doctors that would be mandated reporters for these kinds of situations, … they simply aren’t seeing those children.
For many people, women and, in some cases, men as well, they are victims of domestic violence and because of stay-at-home orders, they can’t escape. They can’t escape the abuser.
These are very serious issues and there’s a literature … on what the effects of stay-at-home lockdown or quarantine, whatever you’d like to call it, what the effects are on people. What those effects are is that, in as little as nine days, people can develop mental health problems, anxiety, depression, anger.
Anger is one that is mentioned quite frequently, numbing. People experience trauma. Some people will develop post-traumatic stress disorder. And these can be long-lasting conditions.
What we don’t know is what is the effect of having stay-at-home orders or situations where we are prohibiting people from going about their daily activities, which includes, for millions of Americans, job loss and income loss. What are the effects of doing this for two to three months in some places still with no end in sight? The literature actually doesn’t show lockdown that has ever lasted this long, and so we’re quite concerned about that.
Particularly, the agency I lead, the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, we are very concerned about the mental health effects on people who are subjected to these very severe policies and who have lost the structure of their lives, the social supports and contacts that keep them going.
We are very concerned about people who have existing mental and substance use disorders who cannot get care because care across the country to a great extent has been canceled, at least the in-person piece of it. Our agency has taken major steps to put telehealth services, telemedicine in place for those needing help with mental and substance use disorders.
This is not something that is familiar to much of our practitioners in behavioral health, and the reason for that is because, as the term implies, behavioral health, we do our work by interacting with people. We want to see our patients. We want to interact with them.
Usually there are symptoms or behaviors or problems, types of responses that people have that we address through individual settings, through group therapies, through therapeutic mill use that for millions of Americans, these are ongoing needs.
They are everyday needs, and they aren’t getting that care. We are very concerned about that. We’re concerned about the links between unemployment and suicide. That’s been documented in the literature as well.
We already know that suicide is one of the 10 leading causes of death in the United States before we ever saw coronavirus. Now, we’re very concerned that there will be an increase in suicide deaths because of the additional stressors that have been placed on our people for months on end and for millions of Americans, that lack of assurance that their job will be there for them when they come back or that they’ll be able to go back to a full-time job.
One of the things I’m hearing from colleagues across the country in my own field is that people’s hours are being cut. They’re being laid off. They’re being furloughed. They’re being asked to use their vacation time to cover reduced salaries that their employer gives them because of the lack of service provision that’s going on in the country right now.
While telemedicine is critically important, it can be lifesaving, it’s a way of making an acute intervention, it’s not going to be ever the full answer. People need that therapeutic interaction that occurs between others that share similar issues and their clinicians that have the experience of years and training and background to help people to address these kinds conditions.
We’re quite concerned about the mental health and substance use disorder fallout from COVID-19, and that’s before thinking about the fact that we have 58 million Americans prior to this virus, 58 million with mental and substance use disorders, many with what we call co-occurring disorders, mental disorders and substance use disorder in the same person.
We know that people who have substance problems usually have problems with more than one substance. We know that people with substance use disorders, only about 10% of them get treatment. That was before coronavirus.
We know that people with mental illness, only about 55% of them get treatment. That’s before coronavirus. We know that 34% of people with serious mental illness, that’s mental illness that is of a severity that people cannot carry out the normal routine daily life functions that the rest of us do because of impairments by their mental illness, 34% of them get no treatment at all. That’s before coronavirus.
We know that since coronavirus has started, appointments and visits have been stopped, that therapeutic intervention, such as intensive outpatient services, partial hospital programs, have been stopped. We know that people are at home bored and stressed, and that alcohol sales have skyrocketed in this country.
We are hearing from the lay press that law enforcement is very reluctant in some states to administer naloxone in an opioid overdose. If you don’t administer naloxone to a person who has overdosed on opioids, they will die, and there’s no need for that. There are safe ways to administer naloxone.
We’re trying to work on that right now, but I mentioned all of these things because what it says is that before coronavirus, we had huge gaps in care and huge needs on the part of Americans for care and treatment of mental health issues and substance problems, which are only being exacerbated by COVID-19.
Allen: Wow, yeah. Weighty. Very, very weighty. Let’s talk for just a second about what actually happens in the human brain. If someone goes weeks or months without meaningful social interaction, whether maybe they’ve already been struggling with anxiety or depression or maybe they weren’t at all before, but now they’re in this place of isolation, are there actually chemical changes that begin to take place in the brain?
McCance-Katz: There are chemical changes that take place in the brain and these chemical changes have been associated with various types of mental illnesses, such as anxiety disorders, such as depressive disorders, such as post-traumatic stress disorders.
Your brain is involved in stress responses and stress responses are mediated by a variety of different types of chemicals in the brain that also travel through the body.
When a person experiences stressors that they cannot address, situations of isolation and anxiety that they cannot change, then those chemicals that stay in balance, which is how all of us go about our daily activities and we are able to manage the normal requirements of our lives because our chemical structures in our brain, are imbalanced. When that changes, that places a person at risk for developing mental disorders.
The thing is that when these imbalances occur, it will take time to rebalance the stress reactions, if you will. When that happens, a person may need medication treatments, they may need psychotherapeutic intervention, a combination of those kinds of interventions. Those resources are how we address these kinds of mental illnesses.
But yes, exactly. This is why I have said that the isolation of the stay-at-home orders are ones that … and again, documented in the literature, in a relatively short amount of time will manifest as symptoms of anxiety, symptoms of depression, angry outbursts, and behaviors that may go along with those kinds of feelings. What lies below that are changes that are occurring in the brain and the rest of the body.
Now, not everybody experiences that. It’s important to really point out that most of us are able to cope with even very severe stressors and the resilience of people.
I think I want to make sure people understand that the majority of people will be able to withstand these stresses, but the people I’m talking about are people who just aren’t able to.
Some of us are more vulnerable than others to mental disorders and substance use disorders. These are genetically mediated illnesses and so for that minority of people, which is a sizable number in the millions, but it’s still relative to our population, a small number of people, those folks are going to need help.
Allen: Yeah.
McCance-Katz: The thing is, we need to get to them before there is a terrible outcome, such as suicide, such as some kind of behavior that harms others, harms themselves, makes it impossible for them to attend to their physical health needs. There are any variety of different ways that these symptoms can make themselves known.
Allen: You spoke with the president and a number of other leaders at the White House in May. What are the recommendations you are offering to national and state leaders right now as it relates to reopening the economy and trying to get life back to some resemblance of normal?
McCance-Katz: What I have said is that we have to think about more than viral infection. We have to think about whole health. We have to think about the needs of a person in their totality. We can’t just think about the possibility of a viral infection. What I have said is that if we fail to do that, we will lose many more lives.
We have so many thousands of deaths, over 116,000 deaths related to suicide and drug overdoses. If you add alcohol into that, some estimates approach 180,000 people a year dying of these very preventable conditions. In addition with COVID, we’ve got a situation where people’s medical problems are not being addressed.
People aren’t getting cancer screenings. They’re not able to see their doctors for existing medical conditions like hypertension, like heart disease, like pulmonary disease, rheumatoid arthritis. There are many serious medical conditions that we must continue to address, and there is no reason not to do that. If we fail to do that, we will have many more deaths than we would see from [the] COVID virus.
Allen: Yeah.
McCance-Katz: What I’ve said is we have to think about whole health, and we have to think about what we’ve learned, and we have learned a lot about this virus. It’s amazing how much we’ve learned in a period of three months.
We have learned how to better manage people who do get so ill with the virus that they have to be hospitalized. We now have [a Food and Drug Administration-approved] treatment for very ill people who have coronavirus infection. We now have increased testing for coronavirus. Greatly, millions of tests have now been completed, and we are setting up a system in this country that will continue to test regularly for high-risk groups.
We have now put in place contact tracing, and we will be following up [with] people to determine who else might have contracted coronavirus when we identify a case.
We now know who the most vulnerable populations are—our elderly, those that are in nursing homes, those that have significant conditions that affect their overall health—and we need to protect them. In doing that, we also need to pay attention to the needs of the general public and the general public needs to go back to regular life, but they need to understand that it’s safe to do that.
I’ve also urged that rather than focusing on deaths that occur from coronavirus—which [the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention] has now said are much less and overall, in terms of the total number of cases, are going to be much less than 1%—we look at the number of people who have had the virus and recover fully, and that number is quite high.
It will be even higher as we do more testing and learn about the great number of people who have had the virus who have had either very mild symptoms or no symptoms.
It’s very important not to spend so much time talking about a virus and emphasizing the negative aspects of illness with that virus that people become paralyzed and can’t go about their lives.
I think that our media has done a great job with that, and that’s not something that I feel good about saying. It’s time to start talking about the progress we’ve made. It’s time to start talking about the fact that almost everyone recovers from this virus and we know who the vulnerable people are, and we can protect them.
If we keep in place good hygiene practices, social distancing, mask-wearing as possible for people to do, then we can get back to normal life, and people should feel confident about that.
We should not shut down again because we know how to deal with this problem. We should send our children to school. They need to be around other children.
They need social interaction, and they need the opportunity to learn, and they need to be with teachers and others who can tell how their health and mental health is, and let us know if those children need help.
It’s really quite important that we stopped talking about COVID as though it’s a death sentence if people get the virus, it is not, and we go back to normal life because we know how to deal with this as a country.
Allen: Wow. Thank you so much. That’s so insightful. And I think your holistic approach is incredibly helpful for perspective.
I want to take just a second and ask you, for those who might be listening and who are thinking, “You know what? I think I am really struggling with depression in this season with anxiety,” and maybe they’re concerned about a loved one and a loved one’s mental health, do you have any practical tips for things that they can do to get their own brain and mind or a loved one’s back to a healthier and better state, so that they can keep living life?
McCance-Katz: Yes, it’s really very important that as much as possible people stay in contact with their loved ones, with their social connections. They can do that by telephone, by social media. It’s important for people really to get outdoors, to get some exercise that can be remarkably soothing and helpful.
To the greatest extent possible, keep a daily routine. It is so difficult for people when they lose their daily structure, as in stay-at-home orders, where your daily activity, get up in the morning, you take a shower, you get dressed, you go to work, you come home, you make dinner, you take care of your family, your pets, and have your evening activities. When that’s taken away, that is so disorienting for people. It really takes a toll.
Even people who are able to telework, it takes a toll on them as well and for people who are completely out of work, it is extremely stressful and very difficult to cope with.
Take care of yourself and if you are feeling extremely sad, if your appetite goes off, if you can’t sleep, if you’re experiencing a very severe anxiety, it’s really important that you seek help, and there are ways to do that.
We have helplines at SAMHSA [the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration]. We have the Suicide Prevention Lifeline. We have a Disaster Distress Helpline, and we have a National Helpline that helps people to find treatment. They can talk with a person that will help them to find a treatment outlet, a treatment resource near them.
You can also find SAMHSA resources online at findtreatment.gov, … that will help in help for substance problems. All you have to do is put in your city, your state, your ZIP code, and you can find resources in your area.
We also have a way of finding mental health services. It’s called findtreatment.samhsa.gov and again, that is a way to find resources for mental health issues.
It’s important that people take an inventory of how they’re feeling, and if they’re having trouble coping, seek help, seek support from those that care about you. If that isn’t enough, then seek professional help.
Allen: We’ll be sure to link some of those resources in the show notes for today. Dr. McCance-Katz, thank you so much for your insight. It has been incredibly helpful and profound. We really appreciate your time today.
McCance-Katz: Thank you so much.


dailysignal--2020-07-07--Congress Should Streamline  Existing COVID-19 Relief, Not Add New Programs

Congress likes to spend money and create new programs , but when it comes to coronavirus recovery , lawmakers need to keep it simple .
Congress already has authorized more than $ 3.6 trillion of relief , of which to date only about half has been spent .
Simple relief is effective relief .
The congressional response should remain targeted at containing the virus and streamlining programs that already exist , rather than creating new complexity .
> > > What ’ s the best way for America to reopen and return to business ?
The National Coronavirus Recovery Commission @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , assembled America ’ s top thinkers to figure that out .
So far , it has made more than 260 recommendations .
Learn more here .
Individuals and employers don ’ t need a new series of tax credits or grant programs .
They need simplicity , clarity , and flexibility .
The existing pandemic programs are complicated in how they interact—often pushing in opposite directions—and ambiguous in how they are enforced .
To keep people connected to their employers and businesses afloat , Congress created the Paycheck Protection Program , a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Employee Retention Credit , a subsidy to keep more people employed ; a paid leave credit to cover the costs of new mandatory paid sick time ; a two-year deferral for employer payroll taxes ; and new loans and direct support for large businesses , among others .
Each of those programs attempt to keep people employed by offering businesses incentives tied to keeping up payrolls .
However , workers often face different incentives .
The expanded unemployment benefits included in the CARES Act make it more profitable not to work than to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 4 workers .
Now , Congress is considering additional programs to support specific special interests .
The cleaning industry association is promoting a “ Clean Start ” tax credit to subsidize business cleaning and disinfecting .
Manufacturing associations have cooked up a plan to allow businesses to get immediate cash for more than two dozen tax credits that they would otherwise have to wait to claim .
Still other tax credits aim to offset the cost of coronavirus testing , and some have discussed providing new subsidies to businesses that rehire their laid-off @ @ @ @ @ @ @ boost the pay of front-line workers .
While each of those new ideas may sound like a straightforward solution to a pressing problem , when combined and added to the existing relief that Congress has already provided , any benefits to the neediest businesses will get lost in mounting confusion .
The existing programs to retain workers and keep businesses solvent have already suffered from unnecessary complexity .
With the exception of Paycheck Protection Program loans , business usage of tax credits and other emergency tax provisions are quite low .
Payroll-processing company @ @ @ @ @ @ @ its clients have taken advantage of the employee retention credit .
Even for the popular Paycheck Protection Program loans , complexity and confusion abound , causing more loan money to be sent back than loaned out on some days in May .
One small business returned the government money , saying the “ terms of the PPP loan are like a house built on a sand foundation , constantly shifting.
” Others have struggled to determine whether they meet loan forgiveness criteria amid shifting closure orders and employees who would prefer to claim @ @ @ @ @ @ @ left out of the first waves of government aid are the smallest and least financially sophisticated .
Businesses without existing relationships with banks—which tend to be disproportionately minority-owned—have struggled to get Paycheck Protection Program loans , let alone to comply with the loans ’ regulatory requirements .
The smaller the business , and the more limited its financial resources , the less likely it is to benefit from new tax credits and other , inevitably complicated government programs .
New credits for COVID-19 testing of employees ( something that most employer- and government-provided @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ) or for office cleaning or refundable green energy tax credits are unlikely to help those businesses struggling the most .
Proposals for new individual tax credits are also poorly targeted to the crisis at hand and will likely leave Americans with permanent new tax programs , as “ temporary ” policies have a habit of being continually extended in future years .
The tourism industry is pushing a new tax credit to subsidize more than $ 8,000 worth of personal vacation costs .
Also on the list are new job training tax @ @ @ @ @ @ @ earned income tax credits , and new child care subsidies .
If Congress determines more aid for individuals is necessary , it should be targeted to those who need it most .
Some 142 million Americans are fortunate to have jobs , including 2.5 million jobs added in May and 4.8 million jobs gained in June .
A temporary partial federal match to unemployment benefits after the $ 600 bonus benefits expire on July 31 , for example , would be much better targeted than sending checks to every American or cutting payroll @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Similarly , if Congress is going to extend additional aid to businesses , lawmakers should do it through existing programs , targeting the aid to those businesses hit hardest by closure orders and simplifying rules for those who do apply .
Novel new credits for cleaning or testing , essential worker bonuses , or advances on tax credits would further complicate the federal economic response and distract from programs that can better provide temporary and targeted aid .

Congress likes to spend money and create new programs, but when it comes to coronavirus recovery, lawmakers need to keep it simple.
Congress already has authorized more than $3.6 trillion of relief, of which to date only about half has been spent.
Simple relief is effective relief. The congressional response should remain targeted at containing the virus and streamlining programs that already exist, rather than creating new complexity.
>>> What’s the best way for America to reopen and return to business? The National Coronavirus Recovery Commission, a project of The Heritage Foundation, assembled America’s top thinkers to figure that out. So far, it has made more than 260 recommendations. Learn more here.
Individuals and employers don’t need a new series of tax credits or grant programs. They need simplicity, clarity, and flexibility.
The existing pandemic programs are complicated in how they interact—often pushing in opposite directions—and ambiguous in how they are enforced.
To keep people connected to their employers and businesses afloat, Congress created the Paycheck Protection Program, a loan program for small businesses; the Employee Retention Credit, a subsidy to keep more people employed; a paid leave credit to cover the costs of new mandatory paid sick time; a two-year deferral for employer payroll taxes; and new loans and direct support for large businesses, among others.
Each of those programs attempt to keep people employed by offering businesses incentives tied to keeping up payrolls. However, workers often face different incentives. The expanded unemployment benefits included in the CARES Act make it more profitable not to work than to work for as many as 3 in 4 workers.
Now, Congress is considering additional programs to support specific special interests.
The cleaning industry association is promoting a “Clean Start” tax credit to subsidize business cleaning and disinfecting. Manufacturing associations have cooked up a plan to allow businesses to get immediate cash for more than two dozen tax credits that they would otherwise have to wait to claim.
Still other tax credits aim to offset the cost of coronavirus testing, and some have discussed providing new subsidies to businesses that rehire their laid-off workers or new business tax credits to boost the pay of front-line workers.
While each of those new ideas may sound like a straightforward solution to a pressing problem, when combined and added to the existing relief that Congress has already provided, any benefits to the neediest businesses will get lost in mounting confusion.
The existing programs to retain workers and keep businesses solvent have already suffered from unnecessary complexity. With the exception of Paycheck Protection Program loans, business usage of tax credits and other emergency tax provisions are quite low. Payroll-processing company ADP reported that only 1% of its clients have taken advantage of the employee retention credit.
Even for the popular Paycheck Protection Program loans, complexity and confusion abound, causing more loan money to be sent back than loaned out on some days in May.
One small business returned the government money, saying the “terms of the PPP loan are like a house built on a sand foundation, constantly shifting.”
Others have struggled to determine whether they meet loan forgiveness criteria amid shifting closure orders and employees who would prefer to claim unemployment.
Those businesses that have been left out of the first waves of government aid are the smallest and least financially sophisticated. Businesses without existing relationships with banks—which tend to be disproportionately minority-owned—have struggled to get Paycheck Protection Program loans, let alone to comply with the loans’ regulatory requirements.
The smaller the business, and the more limited its financial resources, the less likely it is to benefit from new tax credits and other, inevitably complicated government programs.
New credits for COVID-19 testing of employees (something that most employer- and government-provided health insurance already covers at no cost) or for office cleaning or refundable green energy tax credits are unlikely to help those businesses struggling the most.
Proposals for new individual tax credits are also poorly targeted to the crisis at hand and will likely leave Americans with permanent new tax programs, as “temporary” policies have a habit of being continually extended in future years.
The tourism industry is pushing a new tax credit to subsidize more than $8,000 worth of personal vacation costs. Also on the list are new job training tax credits, expansions of the child and earned income tax credits, and new child care subsidies.
If Congress determines more aid for individuals is necessary, it should be targeted to those who need it most. Some 142 million Americans are fortunate to have jobs, including 2.5 million jobs added in May and 4.8 million jobs gained in June.
A temporary partial federal match to unemployment benefits after the $600 bonus benefits expire on July 31, for example, would be much better targeted than sending checks to every American or cutting payroll taxes for individuals who still have jobs.
Similarly, if Congress is going to extend additional aid to businesses, lawmakers should do it through existing programs, targeting the aid to those businesses hit hardest by closure orders and simplifying rules for those who do apply.
Novel new credits for cleaning or testing, essential worker bonuses, or advances on tax credits would further complicate the federal economic response and distract from programs that can better provide temporary and targeted aid.


dailysignal--2020-07-08--Rep. Chip Roy: It’s Time to ‘Unapologetically’ Remind People About America’s ‘Greatness’

In the midst of protests , riots , and attempts to tear down our nation ’ s monuments , Rep. Chip Roy , R-Texas , recently took time to visit monuments across the country , stopping at Independence Hall , Fort McHenry , the Jefferson Memorial , the Washington Monument , the Lincoln Memorial , Theodore Roosevelt Island , and the U.S. Capitol .
He joins The Daily Signal Podcast to talk about why he chose to do this during one of the most turbulent times in recent American history .
Roy also discusses how he thinks America should think @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s history and her Founding Fathers .
Read the lightly edited transcript , pasted below , or listen on the podcast : We also cover these stories : • Dr. Anthony Fauci isn ’ t confident in our nation ’ s ability to handle the coronavirus .
• New York , New Jersey , and Connecticut added three more states to their mandatory quarantine list .
• The president of Brazil has come down with the coronavirus .
“ The Daily Signal Podcast ” is available on Ricochet , Apple Podcasts , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
All of our podcasts can be found at DailySignal.com/podcasts .
If you like what you hear , please leave a review .
You can also leave us a message at 202-608-6205 or write us at [ email protected ] .
Enjoy the show !
Rachel del Guidice : I ’ m joined today on The Daily Signal Podcast by Congressmen Chip Roy of Texas .
Congressman Roy , it ’ s great to have you on The Daily Signal Podcast .
Rep. Chip Roy : The pleasure is mine .
I ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Del Guidice : Well , it ’ s great to have you with us .
So last week , as the country has been reeling from protests and riots and attempts to tear down our nation ’ s monuments , you visited a number of them , including Independence Hall in Philly , Fort McHenry in Baltimore , and then we were back in D.C. to visit the Jefferson Memorial and some of the other monuments in our nation ’ s capital .
Why did you go to these places , congressman , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , a lot of folks have been focusing , rightly , on the statues that are getting toppled , getting tossed into the rivers , or getting pulled down .
Obviously , Andrew Jackson outside of the White House became a focal point a couple of weeks ago .
And we ’ ve been rightly focused on that as a nation .
What I thought is more important is the ideas that are represented , not the perfection of any of the individuals that are memorialized or put forward as a monument , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ nation and what they represent .
And I think it was really important for us to focus on that .
So on Thursday of last week , I drove up to Philadelphia from Washington and went with a few of my staffers who had never been to Independence Hall before .
Frankly , we were able to poke our head in and go inside , which was fantastic to be there on July 2 on the exact anniversary to the day , 244 years since they voted to separate from the crown and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to present to folks the importance of these historical moments for the rights of man , for the ideals they represent , the equality , … life , liberty , and the pursuit of happiness , the things that set the stage for the greatness of this country .
Some people think the ultimate emancipation and then freedom for those who had been enslaved and then fighting through the Jim Crow period think that those things happened in spite of the declaration , and they ’ re wrong .
Those things happen as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a direct result of the Constitution that we crafted in the spirit of that declaration and all that went into that .
And I think that we have got to stand up as a people and remind this generation and the next generation of the greatness of this country , unapologetically , unflinchingly .
And that was the purpose behind doing that .
So , we had a nice tour .
We went to Independence Hall .
We went to Fort McHenry in Baltimore on the way back , where “ The Star-Spangled @ @ @ @ @ @ @ flew .
And then came back to D.C. and visited a number of our memorials and monuments—Roosevelt , Washington Monument , Jefferson Memorial , Lincoln Memorial—and talked about those things .
Del Guidice : You mentioned a lot of the monuments you visited .
Do you have a favorite memorial or monument or one that ’ s really made an impression on you , especially in this time that we ’ re in currently ?
Roy : Well , I mean , going to Independence Hall , to be there , to be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ where those gentlemen met to , frankly , sign their death warrant , to commit treason against the crown and knowing that they did that .
And King George told them that , right ?
I mean , King George wrote back and said , “ Good luck , you guys are committing treason.
” And they did that knowing the consequences .
And keep in mind , we ’ re in the middle of smallpox , you had to travel by horse and carriage .
You want to talk about difficulty , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ let ’ s talk about what the Founders did in order to break off from the crown and give us that .
And so now that means a lot to me .
And then I would also say the Jefferson Memorial .
I ’ m a graduate of the University of Virginia .
I think that as John Adams liked to note about Thomas Jefferson ’ s pen , he had a pen that puts most of us in awe in terms of how he ’ s able to assemble words .
And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ declaration that was clearly significantly written by him .
I pointed out in my video at the Jefferson Memorial that Thomas Jefferson , despite being president of United States , secretary of state , vice president of the United States , governor of Virginia , all of these glorious titles , wanted to be remembered on his tombstone for simply one general idea , three things , right ?
And that was being the author of the Declaration of Independence , author of the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom , and father of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is because he wanted to pursue reason .
He wanted to ensure that we were standing up for the rights of man .
And these were ideas that far exceed any of the titles that he had in any of the positions that he had .
And that to me is what this is all about , right ?
I mean , Jefferson , of all people , would want us to have a spirited debate right now .
Have serious conversations about things like qualified immunity and how people are treated and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ absolutely should have those conversations , but we should do those within the context of the rule of law .
And we should do those things in full admiration of the system that we ’ ve created to work for mankind in this country and around the world .
Del Guidice : Before we get more into the visits that you made on this monument tour , can you talk a little bit about what your reaction and reflections have been to all the mob violence we ’ ve seen since the death @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of us were outraged by what we saw occur in Minneapolis .
I ’ m outraged by any law enforcement officer that would carry themselves in that way .
But I ’ m also outraged by mobs that are killing people , mobs that are destroying property , livelihoods , businesses .
Let ’ s be very clear , a lot of black people are being killed and a lot of black businesses are getting destroyed in the name of quote , unquote “ Black Lives Matter.
” And it ’ s not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the phrase , about lives mattering , black , white , Hispanic , anybody .
But this is about an organization that at its core is challenging and wanting to overturn the very institutions and the core and the foundation that made this country great .
And we ’ re seeing this unfold .
We saw the death of an 8-year-old black girl in Atlanta just this past weekend .
We saw a 19-year-old black man get killed in the supposed autonomous zone , whatever you call these things , where it ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ distraught over the loss of his son .
I can go through example , after example .
We saw a man killed in broad daylight in New York City , washing his car .
He ’ s a father and he ’ s gone .
We saw a 3-year-old black baby killed in Chicago two weeks ago when we had 104 shootings and 14 murders .
This is the kind of thing that happens when you throw law and order over the wall .
When we talk about that thin blue line , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ us and lawlessness , we ’ re seeing that unfold .
And while we should stand up vigorously in public debate and do what we can for equality , justice , due process , like I said , let ’ s have a debate about all of these things , let ’ s have a debate about the power of unions , let ’ s have a debate about qualified immunity and how it should work or shouldn ’ t work .
I believe we should have qualified immunity for law enforcement , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that qualified immunity should shut the door to an American citizen seeking redress for grievances , for believing their right was violated .
Great , let ’ s have that debate , but we ’ re not having that debate .
We ’ re having mob rule .
We ’ re having people get killed .
Lives are destroyed , businesses getting burned , and that is not the way things should work .
My grandfather was a chief of police of a small Texas town .
I was a former federal prosecutor @ @ @ @ @ @ @ We absolutely should .
And the rule of law is the thing that sets our country apart , that we are ruled by laws , not men .
And we have to adhere to the rule of law if we want to sustain that .
Del Guidice : When you visited Independence Hall , you tweeted that we need to celebrate this great country and unapologetically stand up for this great country .
What is your message to those who want to just tear these landmarks down ?
Roy : That when Jefferson @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a firm reliance on the protection of divine providence , that we mutually pledge to each other our lives , our fortunes , and our sacred honor .
That he wasn ’ t just talking about those 56 men sitting there in Independence Hall .
He was talking about all of us .
We do that every day as Americans , we pledge to each other , right ?
We mutually pledge to each other our lives , our fortunate , our sacred honor .
That is what the declaration was , is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is who we are as Americans .
It is our birthright and we stand up for that .
Or as [ President Ronald ] Reagan said , “ That freedom is just one generation away from extinction.
” We have an obligation to stand up and fight for the principles , the ideals that founded our country , and that we ’ ve continued to develop and strive to achieve , but yet we never will achieve them because you guys , myself , all of us , we ’ re all flawed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ m a Christian .
I ’ m taught that we are flawed and we fall short of the glory of God .
And that means we ’ re going to sin and we ’ re going to make mistakes , and we ’ re going to do bad things .
But the key is staying focused on the ideals of what man can achieve when we ’ re free .
What we can achieve when we have equal justice .
When we look at the fact that all men are created equal @ @ @ @ @ @ @ act under that , then we continue to have the greatest country on Earth .
But right now , what we ’ re seeing in cancel culture , what we ’ re seeing in mob rule , what we ’ re seeing in attacking our very foundation institutions , is we ’ re seeing the opposite of those things .
We ’ re tearing down that fabric that has made our country great .
So to me , we look at our founding as setting out the ideal that we ’ re continuing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to perfect this union , and that ’ s the message for the next generation , right ?
We ’ re not a nation of quitters .
We ’ re not a nation that tears things up .
We ’ re a nation that moves forward and achieves greatness by building on what the generation before us achieved .
Del Guidice : As you were on this tour , making these stops at our various monuments , what kinds of things did you see , congressman ?
Were people around , visiting as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ?
What were you happening upon as you made these stops ?
Roy : Frankly , it was relatively quiet in significant part because of the situation with the virus .
Normally Independence Hall would be abuzz with activity on July 2 .
They would have activities and festivities , and they would have a long line of tourists going into the Independence Hall , but it was closed down .
So there was no festivities .
And of course , people are largely being told to avoid public places and so forth @ @ @ @ @ @ @ there was a handful of people that were visitors in town that would wander by .
The same thing is true at Fort McHenry .
The visitor center was closed , but you could walk up there .
And there were a handful of folks there that were walking around .
Same thing at all the various memorials in D.C. Again , everybody is pretty quiet right now .
Lincoln Memorial was abuzz with normal people walking around the Mall and Jefferson Memorial is under construction .
So it ’ s pretty quiet @ @ @ @ @ @ @ loud , funny , because it was under construction .
But right now people are kind of pulled back from those things .
But what I saw , it was actually kind of a unique time to be able to go around to those things with my staff , because it was so quiet .
It allowed for a greater level of reflection rather than sort of the normal buzz of tourist activity , right ?
It was less tourism and it was more of us … The Park Service is very generous @ @ @ @ @ @ @ member of Congress , they allowed us to go into the building .
So we got to be in there just three or four of us and be in the hall on July 2 .
It ’ s something I will never forget , the opportunity to do that .
And then go over to the buildings where the first five Congresses met between 1790 and 1800 .
So it was a great honor to be able to do it .
Del Guidice : When you visited the Jefferson Memorial , you talked @ @ @ @ @ @ @ time we stop hiding behind elections and polls and do the right thing because it is the right thing .
You also mentioned how Jefferson wasn ’ t afraid to tell a king in writing to pound sand .
So how would you encourage your colleagues in Congress to find their voices , especially during this time ?
Roy : Well , what I meant by that is while we ’ re sitting around and people are trying to tear down these monuments and these historic artifacts—again , I ’ m not getting @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ m offended by that .
And we ought to stop it .
It ’ s lawless .
This is happening on federal property , state property .
And we ought to stop that .
What I ’ m most concerned about is ripping down and tearing down our ideals in the name of a movement , which is not about justice or equality , but it ’ s about power .
And it ’ s about , frankly , by their own admission , advancing a Marxist ideology , whether you ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ re talking about the Black Lives Matter organization .
I ’ m not talking about people who want to stand up and say that black lives matter .
I ’ m talking about the Black Lives Matter organization and groups that are effectively engaged in organized crime .
And that ’ s what we ’ re talking about .
I ’ m a former federal prosecutor , I ’ ve been looking at this .
It is hard to look at what ’ s going on and not see it as full-fledged @ @ @ @ @ @ @ encouraged the Department of Justice to look at that and to go into it and go find the perpetrators of this crime and to prosecute them because that ’ s what we should do .
And it is high time for Republicans , in particular conservatives , to stand up in defense of the things we believe in and stand up in defense of the rule of law and stand up in defense of the men and women and our police and law enforcement who are standing up trying to defend us and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
And stand behind them and alongside them .
Yes , calling them out when they ’ re wrong and standing up for the rule of law and standing up in defense of civil liberties , but not to cower , not to shy away , not to huddle up in the corner , wringing your hands , saying that you ’ re not going to want to take on the Black Lives Matter organization or effort that is , frankly , putting forward a lawlessness that is endangering lives .
We should @ @ @ @ @ @ @ endangered and destroyed the black family .
We should call out the very socialist Marxist ideology that has driven the left in this country to seek power for government over the mind of man .
We ought to make that clear that that is detrimental to black families , detrimental to Hispanic families .
That the American dream is alive and well when you get government out of the way and you allow people to be able to excel and to prosper at their own hands and through their own work and their @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
And that the core job and duty of government is to secure the blessings of liberty .
It is why the Constitution was founded to do just that , is secure the blessings of liberty .
So that is what we should stand up for openly and without shame and unapologetically .
Del Guidice : At George Washington University you talked about how disappointing the actions of the past weeks have been due to the mobs and violence that we ’ ve talked about .
So how would you encourage those in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ well as citizens across the country , to stand up for America ?
Roy : I think it ’ s critically important that all Texans , all Americans make their voice heard about what they seek , and they seek the rule of law and they seek a future for their kids and grandkids that is built upon the rule of law and a firm respect and reliance on our founding principles and notions that this country ’ s stood for and bled for .
I , frankly , think it ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as an opportunity to rethink our educational system because it has failed us .
Our educational system over the last generation or two or three has been so far removed from educating our future generations about the greatness of this country and what it stands for and what it means .
We need to rethink that .
And I hope during this virus that a lot of parents are starting to rethink education and rethink about what they need to do to be able to make sure that their kids and all of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ country and will stand up in defense of her .
I just think people can ’ t sit idly by .
If you want to ensure that your communities are safe , you can ’ t wait for Washington , D.C. , or Austin , Texas , and the state government to take care of it .
We ’ re Americans .
We take care of ourselves .
When there was a bomber running around Austin , Texas , a couple of years back , a bomb went off about a mile from @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the dads showed up in mass to our school the next morning .
Why ?
Because we wanted to stand up and send a message that we ’ re going to be taking care of our kids at our school and paying attention to the community around us .
That is our obligation .
When my great-great-grandfather moved to Texas , and it was here in the 1850s , he saddled up to be a Texas Ranger in the 1870s .
Why ?
Because the Comanche raids , 100 % because of Comanche @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to apologize for that .
I ’ m glad he did it .
That was a part of settling the West .
It was a part of dealing with securing your communities .
And I ’ m not going to apologize because somebody may have mistreated some Comanche Indians in one situation , but we ’ re defending their families in another situation .
That ’ s the reality of what our history is .
And it is part of who we are as a country , and I ’ m not going @ @ @ @ @ @ @ from it , we learn how to improve and learn how to treat each other with respect .
But I hear all this stuff about South Dakota and the Indians and Lakota tribe .
And then you talk about Sioux Indians .
Let ’ s talk about the warfare between Indian tribes .
Let ’ s talk about the very violent actions that were carried out between and among warring tribes .
Because we ’ re mankind and we ’ ve fallen and that ’ s what we do .
But this country @ @ @ @ @ @ @ than that in terms of our republic and the rule of law and our democracy .
And we ought to do it proudly and openly .
Del Guidice : Well , Congressman Roy , thank you so much for joining us here today on The Daily Signal Podcast .
It ’ s been great to have you on .
Roy : I appreciate it .
Thank you all for what you do and God bless America .

In the midst of protests, riots, and attempts to tear down our nation’s monuments, Rep. Chip Roy, R-Texas, recently took time to visit monuments across the country, stopping at Independence Hall, Fort McHenry, the Jefferson Memorial, the Washington Monument, the Lincoln Memorial, Theodore Roosevelt Island, and the U.S. Capitol. He joins The Daily Signal Podcast to talk about why he chose to do this during one of the most turbulent times in recent American history.
Roy also discusses how he thinks America should think and respond to attacks against the country’s history and her Founding Fathers. Read the lightly edited transcript, pasted below, or listen on the podcast:
We also cover these stories:
Dr. Anthony Fauci isn’t confident in our nation’s ability to handle the coronavirus.
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Rachel del Guidice: I’m joined today on The Daily Signal Podcast by Congressmen Chip Roy of Texas. Congressman Roy, it’s great to have you on The Daily Signal Podcast.
Rep. Chip Roy: The pleasure is mine. I’m glad to join you all.
Del Guidice: Well, it’s great to have you with us. So last week, as the country has been reeling from protests and riots and attempts to tear down our nation’s monuments, you visited a number of them, including Independence Hall in Philly, Fort McHenry in Baltimore, and then we were back in D.C. to visit the Jefferson Memorial and some of the other monuments in our nation’s capital. Why did you go to these places, congressman, amidst such unrest?
Roy: Well, a lot of folks have been focusing, rightly, on the statues that are getting toppled, getting tossed into the rivers, or getting pulled down. Obviously, Andrew Jackson outside of the White House became a focal point a couple of weeks ago. And we’ve been rightly focused on that as a nation.
What I thought is more important is the ideas that are represented, not the perfection of any of the individuals that are memorialized or put forward as a monument, but rather the ideas of this great nation and what they represent. And I think it was really important for us to focus on that.
So on Thursday of last week, I drove up to Philadelphia from Washington and went with a few of my staffers who had never been to Independence Hall before.
Frankly, we were able to poke our head in and go inside, which was fantastic to be there on July 2 on the exact anniversary to the day, 244 years since they voted to separate from the crown and to declare independence.
And I wanted to present to folks the importance of these historical moments for the rights of man, for the ideals they represent, the equality, … life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, the things that set the stage for the greatness of this country.
Some people think the ultimate emancipation and then freedom for those who had been enslaved and then fighting through the Jim Crow period think that those things happened in spite of the declaration, and they’re wrong. Those things happen as a direct result of the declaration, a direct result of the Constitution that we crafted in the spirit of that declaration and all that went into that.
And I think that we have got to stand up as a people and remind this generation and the next generation of the greatness of this country, unapologetically, unflinchingly. And that was the purpose behind doing that.
So, we had a nice tour. We went to Independence Hall. We went to Fort McHenry in Baltimore on the way back, where “The Star-Spangled Banner” was written and where it flew. And then came back to D.C. and visited a number of our memorials and monuments—Roosevelt, Washington Monument, Jefferson Memorial, Lincoln Memorial—and talked about those things.
Del Guidice: You mentioned a lot of the monuments you visited. Do you have a favorite memorial or monument or one that’s really made an impression on you, especially in this time that we’re in currently?
Roy: Well, I mean, going to Independence Hall, to be there, to be physically in the room, to be where those gentlemen met to, frankly, sign their death warrant, to commit treason against the crown and knowing that they did that.
And King George told them that, right? I mean, King George wrote back and said, “Good luck, you guys are committing treason.” And they did that knowing the consequences. And keep in mind, we’re in the middle of smallpox, you had to travel by horse and carriage.
You want to talk about difficulty, you want to talk about risk, let’s talk about what the Founders did in order to break off from the crown and give us that. And so now that means a lot to me.
It's time we stop hiding behind elections and polls and do the right thing because it's the right thing.
Jefferson wasn't afraid to tell a king IN WRITING to pound sand. Why would we bow down to a Twitter mob?
It's time we stand up for our Founders and #StandUpForAmerica! #TX21 pic.twitter.com/EvkLEgbuis — Chip Roy (@chiproytx) July 2, 2020
And then I would also say the Jefferson Memorial. I’m a graduate of the University of Virginia. I think that as John Adams liked to note about Thomas Jefferson’s pen, he had a pen that puts most of us in awe in terms of how he’s able to assemble words. And obviously, we see that in the declaration that was clearly significantly written by him.
I pointed out in my video at the Jefferson Memorial that Thomas Jefferson, despite being president of United States, secretary of state, vice president of the United States, governor of Virginia, all of these glorious titles, wanted to be remembered on his tombstone for simply one general idea, three things, right?
And that was being the author of the Declaration of Independence, author of the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, and father of the University of Virginia. And this is because he wanted to pursue reason.
He wanted to ensure that we were standing up for the rights of man. And these were ideas that far exceed any of the titles that he had in any of the positions that he had. And that to me is what this is all about, right?
I mean, Jefferson, of all people, would want us to have a spirited debate right now. Have serious conversations about things like qualified immunity and how people are treated and due process and these things.
We absolutely should have those conversations, but we should do those within the context of the rule of law. And we should do those things in full admiration of the system that we’ve created to work for mankind in this country and around the world.
Del Guidice: Before we get more into the visits that you made on this monument tour, can you talk a little bit about what your reaction and reflections have been to all the mob violence we’ve seen since the death of George Floyd?
Roy: All of us were outraged by what we saw occur in Minneapolis. I’m outraged by any law enforcement officer that would carry themselves in that way. But I’m also outraged by mobs that are killing people, mobs that are destroying property, livelihoods, businesses.
Let’s be very clear, a lot of black people are being killed and a lot of black businesses are getting destroyed in the name of quote, unquote “Black Lives Matter.”
And it’s not a phrase. All Americans agree with the phrase, about lives mattering, black, white, Hispanic, anybody. But this is about an organization that at its core is challenging and wanting to overturn the very institutions and the core and the foundation that made this country great. And we’re seeing this unfold.
We saw the death of an 8-year-old black girl in Atlanta just this past weekend. We saw a 19-year-old black man get killed in the supposed autonomous zone, whatever you call these things, where it’s lawless, and watched a father distraught over the loss of his son.
I can go through example, after example. We saw a man killed in broad daylight in New York City, washing his car. He’s a father and he’s gone. We saw a 3-year-old black baby killed in Chicago two weeks ago when we had 104 shootings and 14 murders.
This is the kind of thing that happens when you throw law and order over the wall. When we talk about that thin blue line, when we talk about that barrier between us and lawlessness, we’re seeing that unfold.
And while we should stand up vigorously in public debate and do what we can for equality, justice, due process, like I said, let’s have a debate about all of these things, let’s have a debate about the power of unions, let’s have a debate about qualified immunity and how it should work or shouldn’t work.
I believe we should have qualified immunity for law enforcement, but I don’t believe that that qualified immunity should shut the door to an American citizen seeking redress for grievances, for believing their right was violated. Great, let’s have that debate, but we’re not having that debate. We’re having mob rule. We’re having people get killed. Lives are destroyed, businesses getting burned, and that is not the way things should work.
My grandfather was a chief of police of a small Texas town. I was a former federal prosecutor, I believe in enforcing law. We absolutely should. And the rule of law is the thing that sets our country apart, that we are ruled by laws, not men. And we have to adhere to the rule of law if we want to sustain that.
Del Guidice: When you visited Independence Hall, you tweeted that we need to celebrate this great country and unapologetically stand up for this great country. What is your message to those who want to just tear these landmarks down?
Roy: That when Jefferson concluded the declaration and wrote that with a firm reliance on the protection of divine providence, that we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor. That he wasn’t just talking about those 56 men sitting there in Independence Hall. He was talking about all of us.
We do that every day as Americans, we pledge to each other, right? We mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunate, our sacred honor. That is what the declaration was, is, and will be. And it is who we are as Americans. It is our birthright and we stand up for that. Or as [President Ronald] Reagan said, “That freedom is just one generation away from extinction.”
We have an obligation to stand up and fight for the principles, the ideals that founded our country, and that we’ve continued to develop and strive to achieve, but yet we never will achieve them because you guys, myself, all of us, we’re all flawed. We all know that.
I’m a Christian. I’m taught that we are flawed and we fall short of the glory of God. And that means we’re going to sin and we’re going to make mistakes, and we’re going to do bad things. But the key is staying focused on the ideals of what man can achieve when we’re free. What we can achieve when we have equal justice.
When we look at the fact that all men are created equal, when we remember that and we act under that, then we continue to have the greatest country on Earth.
But right now, what we’re seeing in cancel culture, what we’re seeing in mob rule, what we’re seeing in attacking our very foundation institutions, is we’re seeing the opposite of those things. We’re tearing down that fabric that has made our country great.
So to me, we look at our founding as setting out the ideal that we’re continuing to strive to achieve and we work to perfect this union, and that’s the message for the next generation, right? We’re not a nation of quitters. We’re not a nation that tears things up. We’re a nation that moves forward and achieves greatness by building on what the generation before us achieved.
Del Guidice: As you were on this tour, making these stops at our various monuments, what kinds of things did you see, congressman? Were people around, visiting as well? Did you see any protests? What were you happening upon as you made these stops?
Roy: Frankly, it was relatively quiet in significant part because of the situation with the virus. Normally Independence Hall would be abuzz with activity on July 2. They would have activities and festivities, and they would have a long line of tourists going into the Independence Hall, but it was closed down. So there was no festivities.
And of course, people are largely being told to avoid public places and so forth. So there was nobody there, there was a handful of people that were visitors in town that would wander by.
The same thing is true at Fort McHenry. The visitor center was closed, but you could walk up there. And there were a handful of folks there that were walking around. Same thing at all the various memorials in D.C. Again, everybody is pretty quiet right now.
Lincoln Memorial was abuzz with normal people walking around the Mall and Jefferson Memorial is under construction. So it’s pretty quiet. Actually, it was kind of loud, funny, because it was under construction. But right now people are kind of pulled back from those things.
But what I saw, it was actually kind of a unique time to be able to go around to those things with my staff, because it was so quiet. It allowed for a greater level of reflection rather than sort of the normal buzz of tourist activity, right? It was less tourism and it was more of us …
The Park Service is very generous, and because I’m a member of Congress, they allowed us to go into the building. So we got to be in there just three or four of us and be in the hall on July 2. It’s something I will never forget, the opportunity to do that. And then go over to the buildings where the first five Congresses met between 1790 and 1800. So it was a great honor to be able to do it.
Del Guidice: When you visited the Jefferson Memorial, you talked about on Twitter how it’s time we stop hiding behind elections and polls and do the right thing because it is the right thing. You also mentioned how Jefferson wasn’t afraid to tell a king in writing to pound sand.
So how would you encourage your colleagues in Congress to find their voices, especially during this time?
Roy: Well, what I meant by that is while we’re sitting around and people are trying to tear down these monuments and these historic artifacts—again, I’m not getting as caught up in that. I’m offended by that. And we ought to stop it. It’s lawless. This is happening on federal property, state property. And we ought to stop that.
What I’m most concerned about is ripping down and tearing down our ideals in the name of a movement, which is not about justice or equality, but it’s about power. And it’s about, frankly, by their own admission, advancing a Marxist ideology, whether you’re talking about Antifa or whether you’re talking about the Black Lives Matter organization.
I’m not talking about people who want to stand up and say that black lives matter. I’m talking about the Black Lives Matter organization and groups that are effectively engaged in organized crime. And that’s what we’re talking about.
I’m a former federal prosecutor, I’ve been looking at this. It is hard to look at what’s going on and not see it as full-fledged organized crime. And I’ve encouraged the Department of Justice to look at that and to go into it and go find the perpetrators of this crime and to prosecute them because that’s what we should do.
And it is high time for Republicans, in particular conservatives, to stand up in defense of the things we believe in and stand up in defense of the rule of law and stand up in defense of the men and women and our police and law enforcement who are standing up trying to defend us and keep the peace and keep us safe. And stand behind them and alongside them.
Yes, calling them out when they’re wrong and standing up for the rule of law and standing up in defense of civil liberties, but not to cower, not to shy away, not to huddle up in the corner, wringing your hands, saying that you’re not going to want to take on the Black Lives Matter organization or effort that is, frankly, putting forward a lawlessness that is endangering lives.
We should call out the welfare state that has endangered and destroyed the black family. We should call out the very socialist Marxist ideology that has driven the left in this country to seek power for government over the mind of man.
We ought to make that clear that that is detrimental to black families, detrimental to Hispanic families. That the American dream is alive and well when you get government out of the way and you allow people to be able to excel and to prosper at their own hands and through their own work and their own personal responsibility, their own self-reliance. And that the core job and duty of government is to secure the blessings of liberty. It is why the Constitution was founded to do just that, is secure the blessings of liberty.
So that is what we should stand up for openly and without shame and unapologetically.
Del Guidice: At George Washington University you talked about how disappointing the actions of the past weeks have been due to the mobs and violence that we’ve talked about. So how would you encourage those in your home state of Texas, as well as citizens across the country, to stand up for America?
Roy: I think it’s critically important that all Texans, all Americans make their voice heard about what they seek, and they seek the rule of law and they seek a future for their kids and grandkids that is built upon the rule of law and a firm respect and reliance on our founding principles and notions that this country’s stood for and bled for.
I, frankly, think it’s critically important that we look at this as an opportunity to rethink our educational system because it has failed us. Our educational system over the last generation or two or three has been so far removed from educating our future generations about the greatness of this country and what it stands for and what it means. We need to rethink that.
And I hope during this virus that a lot of parents are starting to rethink education and rethink about what they need to do to be able to make sure that their kids and all of our kids understand and respect this great country and will stand up in defense of her.
I just think people can’t sit idly by. If you want to ensure that your communities are safe, you can’t wait for Washington, D.C., or Austin, Texas, and the state government to take care of it. We’re Americans. We take care of ourselves.
When there was a bomber running around Austin, Texas, a couple of years back, a bomb went off about a mile from my kid’s school. And the dads showed up in mass to our school the next morning. Why? Because we wanted to stand up and send a message that we’re going to be taking care of our kids at our school and paying attention to the community around us. That is our obligation.
When my great-great-grandfather moved to Texas, and it was here in the 1850s, he saddled up to be a Texas Ranger in the 1870s. Why? Because the Comanche raids, 100% because of Comanche raids. I’m not going to apologize for that. I’m glad he did it. That was a part of settling the West. It was a part of dealing with securing your communities.
And I’m not going to apologize because somebody may have mistreated some Comanche Indians in one situation, but we’re defending their families in another situation.
That’s the reality of what our history is. And it is part of who we are as a country, and I’m not going to apologize for it. We learn from it, we learn how to improve and learn how to treat each other with respect.
But I hear all this stuff about South Dakota and the Indians and Lakota tribe. And then you talk about Sioux Indians. Let’s talk about the warfare between Indian tribes. Let’s talk about the very violent actions that were carried out between and among warring tribes. Because we’re mankind and we’ve fallen and that’s what we do.
But this country has stood for something bigger and better than that in terms of our republic and the rule of law and our democracy. And we ought to do it proudly and openly.
Del Guidice: Well, Congressman Roy, thank you so much for joining us here today on The Daily Signal Podcast. It’s been great to have you on.
Roy: I appreciate it. Thank you all for what you do and God bless America.