therealnews--2020-04-09--Sanders Ends Campaign After ‘Shit Show’ Wisconsin Primary

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
Bernie : But as I see the crisis gripping the nation , exacerbated by a president unwilling or unable to provide any kind of credible leadership and the work that needs to be done to protect people in this most desperate hour , I can not in good conscience , continue to mount a campaign that can not win and which would interfere with the important work required of all of us in this difficult hour .
Jaisal Noor : Welcome to the Real News @ @ @ @ @ @ @ In breaking news , Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders announced he ’ s dropping out of the presidential race .
This news comes just one day after , despite a last minute court battle and a stay at home order , thousands of Wisconsin voters braved the coronavirus outbreak to wait six feet apart in lines for hours and cast ballots in the state ’ s presidential primary and local elections .
The election should have been postponed , no doubt .
Some Wisconsinites who had requested absentee ballots said they ’ d never @ @ @ @ @ @ @ between a risking to cast a ballot in person or foregoing their right to vote .
Well , our next guest called the Wisconsin election a shit show and said in good faith , “ I can not tell people to go out there and vote.
” And he ’ s the state ’ s lieutenant governor .
We ’ re joined again by Mandela Barnes .
Thank you so much for joining us .
Mandela Barnes : Hey , thanks a lot for having me , and it ’ s really good @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : So , talk about what happened yesterday .
All the public health officials , national experts , international experts have been saying that these types of gatherings are extremely dangerous , especially to vulnerable populations , yet the vote went on .
Mandela Barnes : Yeah .
It was especially dangerous and irresponsible for Republican leaders in the legislature to pursue action , legal action to keep this election date in place , yesterday ’ s election date .
It ’ s unfortunate that we got to that place , and when @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I saw was so many people waiting in line , lines wrapped around the block and I feel like they had a frustration and I shared that frustration , which is why my first observation is what it was .
If people were going to vote , you wait hours in line at Six Flags , not the polls .
That in itself is a form of voter disenfranchisement because folks have things to do .
People have lives to live .
And also there were some weather conditions , too , that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ folks to stand outside , literally , people weathering a storm to cast the ballots , people putting their health and their safety at risk .
It was an awful situation that didn ’ t have to take place at all , given the fact that the governor tried to delay this election , which was the responsible thing to do , which was very necessary .
And you had people who requested absentee ballots who didn ’ t receive those ballots .
A lot of those folks , I can think of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on Twitter that talked about having a person at home , a spouse or a partner , with a compromised immune system , and if they were to go out to vote , they would be putting their partner , their spouse , the person they live with at risk because they wanted to exercise their constitutional right , because they wanted to exercise their civic duty .
And what having the election yesterday did was create a chaos that I personally haven ’ t seen before , but a [ inaudible 00:03:32 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ subject to .
Jaisal Noor : So Wisconsin ’ s , which you alluded to , Wisconsin ’ s democratic governor Tony Evers ordered the election postponed until June , but he waited till Monday to do that , and the state Supreme court reversed his order in a ruling late on Monday , after Republican leaders challenged Evers ’ decision .
So talk about who makes up that court , and some have said that Evers could have acted sooner , but he said he didn ’ t have the authority to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
What ’ s your response to that ?
Mandela Barnes : Yeah , and having previously said that , I mean , you see what happened when he did issue the order .
I mean , whether the issue , or excuse me , whether the order was issued a week early or a month earlier , we would have seen a similar , if not same , outcome .
And the governor tried to work with the legislature in good faith as , working in shared government , that should be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ safety of people , once there was no response from the legislature , there ’ s been no response from the legislature in terms of overall Covid-19 response , let alone how to shape democracy in this moment .
And having several failed attempts , the governor decided in the 11th hour , yeah , that he would take executive action to delay the election .
And as we see , our courts are controlled by Republicans .
Many would say that it is conservative control given the fact that is technically nonpartisan @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
These are very much Republicans that control our courts here in the state of Wisconsin .
And we have Republicans who control our courts at the highest court , the US Supreme Court as well , and they acted right along Republican state legislators .
They abetted their attempt to subvert democracy .
Jaisal Noor : And so obviously , Scott Walker ’ s reign in Wisconsin had a transforming effect for workers , for just the functioning of government and the courts .
And he was backed by Americans for Prosperity @ @ @ @ @ @ @ brothers that have proven time and time again to put profits over anything else and that anything , they ’ re willing to spend unlimited money to demolish anything that sort of stands in their pursuit of money .
What impact does that have specifically on Wisconsin today , specifically , this court decision ?
Mandela Barnes : I mean it ’ s had a tremendous impact .
When you have these supreme court justices in the state who are up for election , you have to bring it back to the money @ @ @ @ @ @ @ big money has played in the state of Wisconsin .
It ’ s why the right of working people have been rolled back when Wisconsin was once seen as a leader in offering protections to working people and also offering a certain quality of life for individuals in all corners of the state .
And we see that that ’ s not the case anymore .
And with the former governor , you look at even judicial appointments , and I mentioned this last night on the news , as progressives it ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ attention to the courts , and that doesn ’ t mean stop paying attention to other things , but we need to pay as much attention to the courts because we consistently see rights being threatened or just outright being rolled back .
Donald Trump cares about the courts .
The amount , the percentage of judicial vacancies that Donald Trump has filled , he ’ s gotten the supreme court justices , and that is largely in part because the judicial system has not been at the forefront of our thinking .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ s different because they ’ re not issuing the press releases , they ’ re not giving press conferences , so you don ’ t necessarily see them out in the public .
But if we continue to ignore the judiciary , we ’ re going to be in a world of hurt for generations to come .
Jaisal Noor : So Bernie Sanders , he just dropped out of the presidential race today .
He was down 300 delegates .
He acknowledged that he had a really slim chance to victory and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ top of the segment , you hear him say he can ’ t in good conscience continue this campaign , and he actually did not do a get out the vote effort on election day .
He said , “ It ’ s outrageous that Republican legislative leaders and the conservative majority on the supreme court in Wisconsin are willing to risk the health and safety of many thousands of Wisconsin voters tomorrow for their political gain .
Let ’ s be clear .
Holding this election amid the coronavirus outbreak is dangerous @ @ @ @ @ @ @ experts , and may very well prove deadly , ” which is a bold stance for a candidate to take in this crucial election .
Someone called Wisconsin do or die for Sanders .
As a progressive elected official , what are your thoughts on Sanders dropping out now ?
He won Wisconsin handily in 2016 , and it was a state that Trump ended up narrowly winning on this part of his electoral victory to get to the White House , the importance of Wisconsin .
Mandela Barnes : Yeah , so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ better having Bernie Sanders being a part of it in 2016 and this year .
I was proud I voted for Bernie in 16 .
I was very excited when he got into the race this year .
And after Super Tuesday , I guess the writing was kind of on the wall , however , the fact is you look at the progressive issues that candidates all across the country are taking on , the things that people are talking about and things that people aren ’ t afraid to talk about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a huge debt of gratitude to Bernie Sanders and his bold thinking , laying out a vision for the United States of America that many people weren ’ t comfortable embracing at one point or weren ’ t comfortable talking about .
He opened the door to so many new conversations , debates that had to be had .
So , I ’ m forever appreciative to Bernie Sanders for running and for talking about this stuff running for the highest office .
It ’ s not like he was running for a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
He ran for president on talking about big bold ideas .
2016 , he was a little bit closer .
I mean , the fact that he won states in 2016 against someone with much more name recognition , someone who ’ d been in the public eye for far longer , and the fact that he won any state shows that people in this country are ready for change .
And given the way that the 2016 general election played out , it shows that people wanted something different and people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ could ’ ve gotten more traction this year .
But you know , that ’ s not the case .
However , the ideas live on .
And I think that beyond the 2020 cycle , I think that in 24 and 28 and beyond , folks who are going to say , “ Well , he told us so , ” or “ I ’ m sure glad we went ahead with that idea.
” Jaisal Noor : And finally , what is it going to take for Democrats to win states @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be crucial if they ’ re going to win an electoral victory .
We know that Hillary Clinton won three million more popular votes , but unless you win that electoral college , it doesn ’ t mean anything .
Mandela Barnes : Yeah .
I tell people all the time , it has to be a vision .
We can ’ t just , running against Donald Trump , it ’ s not going to get it done in November saying that you ’ re not him or vaguely saying you ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ That ’ s not the answer .
That ’ s not the recipe .
That was the case in 2010 , 2012 , for the recall in 2014 with the former governor .
A lot of those campaigns were explicitly anti Scott Walker and it got us nowhere .
But two years ago , there was a vision that we live with .
We talked about the need to address the concerns of working people in the state of Wisconsin , the need to address education , the need to prioritize our environment @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s what got us over the hump , and it ’ s going to have to be the same way in November .
Jaisal Noor : All right .
Mandela Barnes , Lieutenant Governor of Wisconsin .
Thank you so much for joining us again .
Mandela Barnes : Yeah , thank you for having me .
Jaisal Noor And thank you for joining us at the Real News network .
Speaker 4 : Thanks a lot for watching .
Appreciate it .
But do us one more solemn favor .
Hit the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ want to .
Stay up on your videos .

Wisconsin Lt. Gov. Mandela Barnes says Tuesday’s vote risked lives and amounted to voter suppression, and that Democrats must embrace a progressive vision to beat Trump in November.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Bernie: But as I see the crisis gripping the nation, exacerbated by a president unwilling or unable to provide any kind of credible leadership and the work that needs to be done to protect people in this most desperate hour, I cannot in good conscience, continue to mount a campaign that cannot win and which would interfere with the important work required of all of us in this difficult hour.
Jaisal Noor: Welcome to the Real News. I’m Jaisal Noor. In breaking news, Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders announced he’s dropping out of the presidential race. This news comes just one day after, despite a last minute court battle and a stay at home order, thousands of Wisconsin voters braved the coronavirus outbreak to wait six feet apart in lines for hours and cast ballots in the state’s presidential primary and local elections.
The election should have been postponed, no doubt.
Some Wisconsinites who had requested absentee ballots said they’d never received them, forcing them to choose between a risking to cast a ballot in person or foregoing their right to vote. Well, our next guest called the Wisconsin election a shit show and said in good faith, “I cannot tell people to go out there and vote.” And he’s the state’s lieutenant governor. We’re joined again by Mandela Barnes. Thank you so much for joining us.
Mandela Barnes: Hey, thanks a lot for having me, and it’s really good to see you again.
Jaisal Noor: So, talk about what happened yesterday. All the public health officials, national experts, international experts have been saying that these types of gatherings are extremely dangerous, especially to vulnerable populations, yet the vote went on.
Mandela Barnes: Yeah. It was especially dangerous and irresponsible for Republican leaders in the legislature to pursue action, legal action to keep this election date in place, yesterday’s election date. It’s unfortunate that we got to that place, and when I woke up, the first thing I saw was so many people waiting in line, lines wrapped around the block and I feel like they had a frustration and I shared that frustration, which is why my first observation is what it was. If people were going to vote, you wait hours in line at Six Flags, not the polls. That in itself is a form of voter disenfranchisement because folks have things to do. People have lives to live. And also there were some weather conditions, too, that made it difficult for a lot of folks to stand outside, literally, people weathering a storm to cast the ballots, people putting their health and their safety at risk.
It was an awful situation that didn’t have to take place at all, given the fact that the governor tried to delay this election, which was the responsible thing to do, which was very necessary. And you had people who requested absentee ballots who didn’t receive those ballots. A lot of those folks, I can think of examples from people that replied to me on Twitter that talked about having a person at home, a spouse or a partner, with a compromised immune system, and if they were to go out to vote, they would be putting their partner, their spouse, the person they live with at risk because they wanted to exercise their constitutional right, because they wanted to exercise their civic duty. And what having the election yesterday did was create a chaos that I personally haven’t seen before, but a [inaudible 00:03:32] chaos that no person should be subject to.
Jaisal Noor: So Wisconsin’s, which you alluded to, Wisconsin’s democratic governor Tony Evers ordered the election postponed until June, but he waited till Monday to do that, and the state Supreme court reversed his order in a ruling late on Monday, after Republican leaders challenged Evers’ decision. So talk about who makes up that court, and some have said that Evers could have acted sooner, but he said he didn’t have the authority to do so. He previously said that. What’s your response to that?
Mandela Barnes: Yeah, and having previously said that, I mean, you see what happened when he did issue the order. I mean, whether the issue, or excuse me, whether the order was issued a week early or a month earlier, we would have seen a similar, if not same, outcome. And the governor tried to work with the legislature in good faith as, working in shared government, that should be the case. Prioritizing the health and safety of people, once there was no response from the legislature, there’s been no response from the legislature in terms of overall Covid-19 response, let alone how to shape democracy in this moment.
And having several failed attempts, the governor decided in the 11th hour, yeah, that he would take executive action to delay the election. And as we see, our courts are controlled by Republicans. Many would say that it is conservative control given the fact that is technically nonpartisan, but that is only a technicality. These are very much Republicans that control our courts here in the state of Wisconsin. And we have Republicans who control our courts at the highest court, the US Supreme Court as well, and they acted right along Republican state legislators. They abetted their attempt to subvert democracy.
Jaisal Noor: And so obviously, Scott Walker’s reign in Wisconsin had a transforming effect for workers, for just the functioning of government and the courts. And he was backed by Americans for Prosperity and other groups funded by the Koch brothers that have proven time and time again to put profits over anything else and that anything, they’re willing to spend unlimited money to demolish anything that sort of stands in their pursuit of money. What impact does that have specifically on Wisconsin today, specifically, this court decision?
Mandela Barnes: I mean it’s had a tremendous impact. When you have these supreme court justices in the state who are up for election, you have to bring it back to the money. You just mentioned the influence that big money has played in the state of Wisconsin. It’s why the right of working people have been rolled back when Wisconsin was once seen as a leader in offering protections to working people and also offering a certain quality of life for individuals in all corners of the state. And we see that that’s not the case anymore. And with the former governor, you look at even judicial appointments, and I mentioned this last night on the news, as progressives it’s important for us to pay more attention to the courts, and that doesn’t mean stop paying attention to other things, but we need to pay as much attention to the courts because we consistently see rights being threatened or just outright being rolled back.
Donald Trump cares about the courts. The amount, the percentage of judicial vacancies that Donald Trump has filled, he’s gotten the supreme court justices, and that is largely in part because the judicial system has not been at the forefront of our thinking. And I get it. It’s different because they’re not issuing the press releases, they’re not giving press conferences, so you don’t necessarily see them out in the public. But if we continue to ignore the judiciary, we’re going to be in a world of hurt for generations to come.
Jaisal Noor: So Bernie Sanders, he just dropped out of the presidential race today. He was down 300 delegates. He acknowledged that he had a really slim chance to victory and the clip that we played at the top of the segment, you hear him say he can’t in good conscience continue this campaign, and he actually did not do a get out the vote effort on election day. He said, “It’s outrageous that Republican legislative leaders and the conservative majority on the supreme court in Wisconsin are willing to risk the health and safety of many thousands of Wisconsin voters tomorrow for their political gain. Let’s be clear. Holding this election amid the coronavirus outbreak is dangerous, disregards the guidance of public health experts, and may very well prove deadly,” which is a bold stance for a candidate to take in this crucial election.
Someone called Wisconsin do or die for Sanders. As a progressive elected official, what are your thoughts on Sanders dropping out now? He won Wisconsin handily in 2016, and it was a state that Trump ended up narrowly winning on this part of his electoral victory to get to the White House, the importance of Wisconsin.
Mandela Barnes: Yeah, so I think that the debate was much better having Bernie Sanders being a part of it in 2016 and this year. I was proud I voted for Bernie in 16. I was very excited when he got into the race this year. And after Super Tuesday, I guess the writing was kind of on the wall, however, the fact is you look at the progressive issues that candidates all across the country are taking on, the things that people are talking about and things that people aren’t afraid to talk about anymore. I think that we owe a huge debt of gratitude to Bernie Sanders and his bold thinking, laying out a vision for the United States of America that many people weren’t comfortable embracing at one point or weren’t comfortable talking about. He opened the door to so many new conversations, debates that had to be had.
So, I’m forever appreciative to Bernie Sanders for running and for talking about this stuff running for the highest office. It’s not like he was running for a village trustee and bringing up these ideas. He ran for president on talking about big bold ideas. 2016, he was a little bit closer. I mean, the fact that he won states in 2016 against someone with much more name recognition, someone who’d been in the public eye for far longer, and the fact that he won any state shows that people in this country are ready for change.
And given the way that the 2016 general election played out, it shows that people wanted something different and people wanted something more. I wish he could’ve gotten more traction this year. But you know, that’s not the case. However, the ideas live on. And I think that beyond the 2020 cycle, I think that in 24 and 28 and beyond, folks who are going to say, “Well, he told us so,” or “I’m sure glad we went ahead with that idea.”
Jaisal Noor: And finally, what is it going to take for Democrats to win states like Wisconsin, which are going to be crucial if they’re going to win an electoral victory. We know that Hillary Clinton won three million more popular votes, but unless you win that electoral college, it doesn’t mean anything.
Mandela Barnes: Yeah. I tell people all the time, it has to be a vision. We can’t just, running against Donald Trump, it’s not going to get it done in November saying that you’re not him or vaguely saying you’re going to do things differently. That’s not the answer. That’s not the recipe. That was the case in 2010, 2012, for the recall in 2014 with the former governor. A lot of those campaigns were explicitly anti Scott Walker and it got us nowhere. But two years ago, there was a vision that we live with. We talked about the need to address the concerns of working people in the state of Wisconsin, the need to address education, the need to prioritize our environment. And now ultimately, that’s what got us over the hump, and it’s going to have to be the same way in November.
Jaisal Noor: All right. Mandela Barnes, Lieutenant Governor of Wisconsin. Thank you so much for joining us again.
Mandela Barnes: Yeah, thank you for having me.
Jaisal Noor And thank you for joining us at the Real News network.
Speaker 4: Thanks a lot for watching. Appreciate it. But do us one more solemn favor. Hit the subscribe button below. You know you want to. Stay up on your videos.
Studio: Bababtunde Ogunfolaju
Production: Bababtunde Ogunfolaju
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therealnews--2020-04-09--Egypt’s Secret War in Northern Sinai

Egypt’s Secret War in Northern Sinai

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
Kim Brown : Welcome to The Real News , I ’ m Kim Brown .
The war which Egypt is waging against armed Islamic organizations in Northern Sinai doesn ’ t rest even during the coronavirus pandemic .
President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi took power in Egypt in 2013 by means of a military coup , which he justified by accusing late President Mohamed Morsi of not providing security , and not fighting against terrorist organizations .
Seven years into his role , Northern Sinai continues @ @ @ @ @ @ @ which was reported by the German press agency , Deutsche Presse-Agentur , reveals that on March 26 the armed resistance groups blew up five electricity towers in the village of Sheikh Zuweid .
Two days later , the Egyptian Air Force launched an air strike on the Egyptian city of Raffah , killing 16 and injuring six other peoples , which Egypt claims were terrorist .
What is also very noteworthy about the story is that the Egyptian government has banned all local media from reporting on either the first or the second @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the neighboring Gaza Strip who filmed the airstrike , we may not have known about it at all .
This raises the question , how many other bombings by Islamic groups , and by the Egyptian State Forces , are hidden from the public ?
Well , joining us today to talk about this is Angela Joya .
She is an Adjunct Research Professor at the Institute of Political Economy at Carleton University in Ottawa , Canada .
Her research focuses on neoliberal globalization shaping social conflicts , and she ’ s studied @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , including extensive fieldwork in Egypt .
Her most recent book is titled The Roots of Revolt , A Political Economy of Egypt from Nasser to Mubarak , and it ’ s printed by the Cambridge University Press , that was published this year .
She joins us today from Ottawa .
Professor , good day .
Thank you so much for being here.Angela Joya : It ’ s a pleasure to be with you.Kim Brown : So Why is the Egyptian Air Force conducting an airstrike inside of Egypt ’ s borders @ @ @ @ @ @ @ If they really think that there are terrorists in a certain building , why not arrest them instead of bomb them ?
Angela Joya : It ’ s a good question .
The background to the bombing goes years back in Egypt .
I ’ m probably a bit surprised that it has caught media ’ s attention just recently , but when you just check Egyptian news , this has been an issue .
The conflict in North Sinai is basically a state of war for the last probably 10 years or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of war since Abdel Fattah el-Sisi took power in 2013 .
The bombing campaign by the military also in North Sinai dates back to 2013 , and it has been an ongoing event that has not necessarily stopped .
Briefly , I guess , for our audience , if they want to grasp in some ways what is the nature of the conflict there .
For the Egyptian state , they see that as a place that ’ s out of control , as a place that they can not govern .
They @ @ @ @ @ @ @ rule , that ’ s how they see it .
And so , from their point of view , and because of the casualties that the security forces and the military conscripts in North Sinai has faced numerous individuals from the security forces have been killed by targeted attacks by the Islamist group Sinai Province or Wilayat Sinai .
And so that ’ s how they perceive it .
And to them there is a security vacuum that ’ s preventing the Egyptian state to establish itself firmly in North Sinai as part @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s the struggle that they ’ re trying to overcome .
The other side of this establishing security is also bringing economic development .
Those who have traveled to Egypt , they might be familiar with Sharm el-Sheikh , or Dahab in South Sinai .
And so , the two provinces that are side by side , South Sinai ’ s much more developed in terms of its population .
It ’ s much sparsely populated .
North Sinai is , contains half a million population , but it ’ s very much @ @ @ @ @ @ @ unique place in , in Egypt , political and social memory and present .
The Sinai historically was taken over in 1967 by Israel after that war with Egypt of 1967 , and so it wasn ’ t their occupation of Israel until 1979 , when the peace deal was signed with Sadat .
Okay .
And since that time when Sinai was given back to Egypt , there has been ongoing relationship of mistrust on both sides by the population of North Sinai , but also by the Egyptian state and Egyptian… @ @ @ @ @ @ @ discourse and media , painting them as a unreliable , untrustworthy residents who might collaborate with Israel , who might bring Palestinians over .
And so politically and historically where they ’ ve been situated , has shaped that particular perception of them .
That leaves them in a bit of a disadvantage position .
More recently since 2013 , the discourse of the military has painted the residents of Sinai , of North Sinai , as collaborators with the Islamist groups .
But , I guess , for the Egyptian politics , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Muslim Brotherhood who were overthrown in 2013 .
And so , then by default they are also seen as terrorists and therefore the tax on them are legitimated , as a struggle for , or a war against terror in the public discourse in Egypt , mostly military and government run newspapers .
And therefore there is very little , sadly , very little sympathy towards the casualties and the destruction that ’ s caused in North Sinai over the last 10 years or so , by the government .
And so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it and how it ’ s playing out in the discourse and politics of Egypt.Kim Brown : So professor , in your opinion , why did Egyptian authorities attempt to keep this story a secret ?
They didn ’ t try to conceal the bombing of the village in Raffah , and they didn ’ t try to conceal the bombing of the electric towers in the small town of , I believe it ’ s Sheikh Zuweid .
So what was the point of trying to keep this story under wraps as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : Well , I tried to actually go and access Sinai… tried to go get closer .
I was in Egypt in 2014 and this is a year after Sisi had taken power .
You , what you see is at the entrance between… in Sinai itself , lots of military vehicles .
And they just pointed to us , they said you don ’ t want to go this way , you want to go back to Cairo .
And so the place has been kept as a military security zone .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ as , as part of national security and not accessible to anybody who would like to know what is going on there .
And so the projects that are being carried out , they talk about development projects , they talk about infrastructure projects .
All of these , while on the one hand , they are seen as development , but on the other hand , they ’ re also seen as security , and probably in some ways emblematic of the weakness or strength of the Egyptian state , depending on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ if the infrastructure is being brought down by the Wilayat Sinai Islamic group , that ’ s definitely seen as a failure .
And as probably a decline in legitimacy of the Egyptian state in the military , and showing its weakness .
And I think , a lot of this is playing out through that lens by the Egyptian military where they do not want access to journalists or to media around a lot of stories .
Some of these stories come out , if they play out the strength of the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the village where they say terrorists were housed .
But if it ’ s a project of the Egyptian state or the military that ’ s being brought down , then that ’ s obviously seen as a failure of the Egyptian state to provide security for the projects they ’ re implementing .
And so , in that sense , you can see how they ’ re being selective about what they want to reveal to the media , what they don ’ t want to reveal to the media .
I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of a journalist [ Alexander Rahni 00:09:14 ] , who wrote about the Muslim Brotherhood , but also wrote about the Sinai and the destruction of housing and Sinai , thousands of housing that were bombed by the military under the pretext of security threats .
He wrote about that and he did research .
He worked outside of Egypt actually , and then in 2015 when he visited Egypt , he was arrested and he was given a tenure , a prison sentence in 2018 , simply by covering that story of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ so you can see how susceptible , how vulnerable the military feels when it comes to stories that might reveal… that might either make them look less legitimate in the eyes of the Egyptian public , or change the discourse , or challenge the narrative that they have created , that North Sinai ’ s basically populated by Muslim Brotherhood affiliated Islamists or terrorists .
And if anything goes or challenges that particular dominant narrative , then they tried to suppress it , or basically put them , put those journalists in jail.Kim @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Muslim Brotherhood , but I wanted to ask you about ISIS , because as far as we can tell , ISIS has all been but defeated in Syria , Iraq , in Libya .
But I wanted to ask you about the groups in Northern Sinai .
Are they affiliated with ISIS , and if so , what is their actual goal in engaging the Egyptian military , and are they trying to actually capture or create autonomy in the Sinai peninsula , in your opinion ?
Angela Joya : The particular nature @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the region is very different .
If you talk to experts in the region who study Islamist groups , they would claim also and support the argument that , very much the goal of these Islamist groups is a nationalist goal .
They are not necessarily transnational .
ISIS was more of a transnational group where they established , either a territory in Syria or in Iraq trying to expand and bring the whole Islamic world together .
In the case of Wilayat Sinai or the Sinai Province group in North Sinai , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ by the nature of the national struggle inside Egypt .
As I mentioned , there ’ s that historical background to the conflict in North Sinai .
The population of North Sinai is constituted of the Bedouins or the nomads who engage in agriculture .
But also a lot of Palestinians who have been displaced over the course of 1960s , 1970s and who have crossed the border and who established basically a home in North Sinai .
And so North Sinai , as such , becomes this very complex demographic that have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sides in Israel and Gaza , but also in Egypt .
And so they ’ re not necessarily seen as distinctly only Egyptian per se .
And some of the , I guess , roots of this conflict and the rise of Islam , is in the success of Islam is , even the Egyptian military themselves admit , is linked to the marginalization of North Sinai , because of this political conflict that has basically been waged for so long in the region and how they ’ ve been left out of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ before , North Sinai has the highest rate of unemployment .
Their infrastructure when it comes to schools , hospitals has crumbled or is non-existent .
Their housing has been basically subjected to different phases of bombings in search of fighters , Islamists .
And so , overall the population has been basically receiving the brunt of the state ’ s war on terror .
And that has provided the perfect ground for people to basically join some of these Islamist groups .
And that ’ s become very much a national force @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
So we can not really fall for the claim that they are a transnational group of ISIS affiliated .
Of course , it gives them a sense of pride to Islamist groups to claim that they are linked and affiliated to this transnational ISIS group .
That kind of brings them legitimacy .
But the more we study , the more it seems more of a localized phenomena linked to the grievances of people in North Sinai and the responses of the military in North Sinai .
Kim Brown : It ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ midst of a global pandemic , the war machine doesn ’ t seem to take any days off .
Kim Brown : Well , Professor , we appreciate your time and your expertise today .
We ’ ve been speaking with Angela Joya .
Angela is an Adjunct Research Professor at the Institute of Political Economy at Carleton university in Ottawa , Canada .
Her most recent book is titled , The Roots of Revolt , A Political Economy of Egypt from Nasser to Mubarak , and you can find that at Cambridge @ @ @ @ @ @ @ appreciate your time today .
Thank you so much .
Angela Joya : Thank you so much , Kim .
It ’ s good to be with you again .
Kim Brown : You as well .
And thank you for watching The Real News Network .

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Kim Brown: Welcome to The Real News, I’m Kim Brown.The war which Egypt is waging against armed Islamic organizations in Northern Sinai doesn’t rest even during the coronavirus pandemic. President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi took power in Egypt in 2013 by means of a military coup, which he justified by accusing late President Mohamed Morsi of not providing security, and not fighting against terrorist organizations. Seven years into his role, Northern Sinai continues to be a war-torn area.Information which was reported by the German press agency, Deutsche Presse-Agentur, reveals that on March 26 the armed resistance groups blew up five electricity towers in the village of Sheikh Zuweid. Two days later, the Egyptian Air Force launched an air strike on the Egyptian city of Raffah, killing 16 and injuring six other peoples, which Egypt claims were terrorist.What is also very noteworthy about the story is that the Egyptian government has banned all local media from reporting on either the first or the second bombing. If not for journalists from the neighboring Gaza Strip who filmed the airstrike, we may not have known about it at all. This raises the question, how many other bombings by Islamic groups, and by the Egyptian State Forces, are hidden from the public?Well, joining us today to talk about this is Angela Joya. She is an Adjunct Research Professor at the Institute of Political Economy at Carleton University in Ottawa, Canada. Her research focuses on neoliberal globalization shaping social conflicts, and she’s studied the North African Arab uprisings very closely, including extensive fieldwork in Egypt.Her most recent book is titled The Roots of Revolt, A Political Economy of Egypt from Nasser to Mubarak, and it’s printed by the Cambridge University Press, that was published this year. She joins us today from Ottawa.Professor, good day. Thank you so much for being here.Angela Joya: It’s a pleasure to be with you.Kim Brown: So Why is the Egyptian Air Force conducting an airstrike inside of Egypt’s borders, inside of an Egyptian city? If they really think that there are terrorists in a certain building, why not arrest them instead of bomb them?Angela Joya: It’s a good question. The background to the bombing goes years back in Egypt. I’m probably a bit surprised that it has caught media’s attention just recently, but when you just check Egyptian news, this has been an issue. The conflict in North Sinai is basically a state of war for the last probably 10 years or longer, but more actively a state of war since Abdel Fattah el-Sisi took power in 2013. The bombing campaign by the military also in North Sinai dates back to 2013, and it has been an ongoing event that has not necessarily stopped.Briefly, I guess, for our audience, if they want to grasp in some ways what is the nature of the conflict there. For the Egyptian state, they see that as a place that’s out of control, as a place that they cannot govern. They are trying to bring it under the rule, that’s how they see it. And so, from their point of view, and because of the casualties that the security forces and the military conscripts in North Sinai has faced numerous individuals from the security forces have been killed by targeted attacks by the Islamist group Sinai Province or Wilayat Sinai. And so that’s how they perceive it. And to them there is a security vacuum that’s preventing the Egyptian state to establish itself firmly in North Sinai as part of Egyptian state. And that’s the struggle that they’re trying to overcome.The other side of this establishing security is also bringing economic development. Those who have traveled to Egypt, they might be familiar with Sharm el-Sheikh, or Dahab in South Sinai. And so, the two provinces that are side by side, South Sinai’s much more developed in terms of its population. It’s much sparsely populated. North Sinai is, contains half a million population, but it’s very much underdeveloped. It’s in a unique place in, in Egypt, political and social memory and present.The Sinai historically was taken over in 1967 by Israel after that war with Egypt of 1967, and so it wasn’t their occupation of Israel until 1979, when the peace deal was signed with Sadat. Okay. And since that time when Sinai was given back to Egypt, there has been ongoing relationship of mistrust on both sides by the population of North Sinai, but also by the Egyptian state and Egyptian… I guess you would say, public discourse and media, painting them as a unreliable, untrustworthy residents who might collaborate with Israel, who might bring Palestinians over. And so politically and historically where they’ve been situated, has shaped that particular perception of them. That leaves them in a bit of a disadvantage position.More recently since 2013, the discourse of the military has painted the residents of Sinai, of North Sinai, as collaborators with the Islamist groups. But, I guess, for the Egyptian politics, they have been seen as affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood who were overthrown in 2013. And so, then by default they are also seen as terrorists and therefore the tax on them are legitimated, as a struggle for, or a war against terror in the public discourse in Egypt, mostly military and government run newspapers.And therefore there is very little, sadly, very little sympathy towards the casualties and the destruction that’s caused in North Sinai over the last 10 years or so, by the government. And so that’s the complex nature of it and how it’s playing out in the discourse and politics of Egypt.Kim Brown: So professor, in your opinion, why did Egyptian authorities attempt to keep this story a secret? They didn’t try to conceal the bombing of the village in Raffah, and they didn’t try to conceal the bombing of the electric towers in the small town of, I believe it’s Sheikh Zuweid. So what was the point of trying to keep this story under wraps as opposed to the others?Angela Joya: Well, I tried to actually go and access Sinai… tried to go get closer. I was in Egypt in 2014 and this is a year after Sisi had taken power. You, what you see is at the entrance between… in Sinai itself, lots of military vehicles. And they just pointed to us, they said you don’t want to go this way, you want to go back to Cairo.And so the place has been kept as a military security zone. And as such it’s seen as, as part of national security and not accessible to anybody who would like to know what is going on there.And so the projects that are being carried out, they talk about development projects, they talk about infrastructure projects. All of these, while on the one hand, they are seen as development, but on the other hand, they’re also seen as security, and probably in some ways emblematic of the weakness or strength of the Egyptian state, depending on how you see it.And so if the infrastructure is being brought down by the Wilayat Sinai Islamic group, that’s definitely seen as a failure. And as probably a decline in legitimacy of the Egyptian state in the military, and showing its weakness. And I think, a lot of this is playing out through that lens by the Egyptian military where they do not want access to journalists or to media around a lot of stories.Some of these stories come out, if they play out the strength of the Egyptian military, like the distraction of the village where they say terrorists were housed. But if it’s a project of the Egyptian state or the military that’s being brought down, then that’s obviously seen as a failure of the Egyptian state to provide security for the projects they’re implementing.And so, in that sense, you can see how they’re being selective about what they want to reveal to the media, what they don’t want to reveal to the media. I just want to bring up the case of a journalist [Alexander Rahni 00:09:14] , who wrote about the Muslim Brotherhood, but also wrote about the Sinai and the destruction of housing and Sinai, thousands of housing that were bombed by the military under the pretext of security threats.He wrote about that and he did research. He worked outside of Egypt actually, and then in 2015 when he visited Egypt, he was arrested and he was given a tenure, a prison sentence in 2018, simply by covering that story of housing destruction in North Sinai.And so you can see how susceptible, how vulnerable the military feels when it comes to stories that might reveal… that might either make them look less legitimate in the eyes of the Egyptian public, or change the discourse, or challenge the narrative that they have created, that North Sinai’s basically populated by Muslim Brotherhood affiliated Islamists or terrorists. And if anything goes or challenges that particular dominant narrative, then they tried to suppress it, or basically put them, put those journalists in jail.Kim Brown: Professor, you mentioned the Muslim Brotherhood, but I wanted to ask you about ISIS, because as far as we can tell, ISIS has all been but defeated in Syria, Iraq, in Libya. But I wanted to ask you about the groups in Northern Sinai. Are they affiliated with ISIS, and if so, what is their actual goal in engaging the Egyptian military, and are they trying to actually capture or create autonomy in the Sinai peninsula, in your opinion?
Angela Joya: The particular nature of Islamic groups in different countries in the region is very different. If you talk to experts in the region who study Islamist groups, they would claim also and support the argument that, very much the goal of these Islamist groups is a nationalist goal. They are not necessarily transnational.
ISIS was more of a transnational group where they established, either a territory in Syria or in Iraq trying to expand and bring the whole Islamic world together. In the case of Wilayat Sinai or the Sinai Province group in North Sinai, their goals have been shaped very much by the nature of the national struggle inside Egypt.
As I mentioned, there’s that historical background to the conflict in North Sinai. The population of North Sinai is constituted of the Bedouins or the nomads who engage in agriculture. But also a lot of Palestinians who have been displaced over the course of 1960s, 1970s and who have crossed the border and who established basically a home in North Sinai.
And so North Sinai, as such, becomes this very complex demographic that have basically political and social connections to both sides in Israel and Gaza, but also in Egypt. And so they’re not necessarily seen as distinctly only Egyptian per se.
And some of the, I guess, roots of this conflict and the rise of Islam, is in the success of Islam is, even the Egyptian military themselves admit, is linked to the marginalization of North Sinai, because of this political conflict that has basically been waged for so long in the region and how they’ve been left out of the development process even under Hosni Mubarak before, North Sinai has the highest rate of unemployment. Their infrastructure when it comes to schools, hospitals has crumbled or is non-existent. Their housing has been basically subjected to different phases of bombings in search of fighters, Islamists.
And so, overall the population has been basically receiving the brunt of the state’s war on terror. And that has provided the perfect ground for people to basically join some of these Islamist groups. And that’s become very much a national force in some ways, in North Sinai.
So we cannot really fall for the claim that they are a transnational group of ISIS affiliated. Of course, it gives them a sense of pride to Islamist groups to claim that they are linked and affiliated to this transnational ISIS group. That kind of brings them legitimacy. But the more we study, the more it seems more of a localized phenomena linked to the grievances of people in North Sinai and the responses of the military in North Sinai.
Kim Brown: It’s so disheartening that even in the midst of a global pandemic, the war machine doesn’t seem to take any days off.
Angela Joya: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Kim Brown: Well, Professor, we appreciate your time and your expertise today. We’ve been speaking with Angela Joya. Angela is an Adjunct Research Professor at the Institute of Political Economy at Carleton university in Ottawa, Canada.
Her most recent book is titled, The Roots of Revolt, A Political Economy of Egypt from Nasser to Mubarak, and you can find that at Cambridge University Press.
Professor Joya, we appreciate your time today. Thank you so much.
Angela Joya: Thank you so much, Kim. It’s good to be with you again.
Kim Brown: You as well. And thank you for watching The Real News Network.


therealnews--2020-04-09--Brazil President Jair Bolsonaro Fiddles While Brazil Burns

Marc Steiner : Welcome to the Real News .
I ’ m Marc Steiner .
Great to have you all with us as usual .
Now more people have been affected by COVID in Brazil than any of its neighboring countries .
And more people have died there as well .
Mix this , Brazil ’ s Nero who is fiddling while Rome is burning is its president , Jair Bolsonaro , who told Brazilians to stay on the job and work .
Who says he is too physically fit to get the disease and he calls it , “ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ telling the people from Brazil , and this is a quote , “ Some will die .
I ’ m sorry .
That ’ s life.
” The revolt against him is palpable .
His own health minister who he threatened to fire , came out against what he said .
24 of the 27 state governors representing 200 million people out of 210 million people in Brazil have put their citizens on lockdown .
Both defying and criticizing Bolsonaro .
What could happen in Brazil ?
Could this be the downfall of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to the people of Brazil ?
We turn to Michael Fox journalist , documentary filmmaker and frequent contributor to the Real News , joining us now from Southern Brazil .
And Mike , welcome back .
Good to have you with us.Michael Fox : Thanks so much for having me.Marc Steiner : So this is what ’ s going on in Brazil right now as I ’ ve come read all these things and you ’ re in the midst of it .
What I read from yesterday was that Brazil already has @ @ @ @ @ @ @ It ’ s still rising .
So talk a bit about this tenor of the land at the moment.Michael Fox : Yeah .
And it ’ s now over 500 deaths just this morning.Marc Steiner : Wow !
Michael Fox : So it ’ s increasing and it ’ s going to continue to increase .
Thankfully the country , like you just said , the state governments have been able to really put the country as much as possible on lockdown .
Brazil is not a country that follows rules very well @ @ @ @ @ @ @ follow rules .
And so that means that unless it ’ s a very clear lock down , you need to stay home .
People are going to be out in the streets .
They ’ re going to do what they want to do .
And we ’ re still seeing that .
So regardless , despite the lockdown , you ’ re still getting people out in the streets .
But the big question , the big thing that everybody ’ s been talking about really is Bolsonaro .
Bolsonaro ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the infighting within this government right now .
Obviously people are scared .
They ’ re afraid .
They don ’ t know where this could head because there are millions and millions and Brazil is one of the most unequal countries in the world .
Poverty has been rising in recent years since the 2016 coup .
And so those people are even more under strain right now .
You have indigenous communities .
You have [ inaudible 00:02:41 ] communities , black communities .
And so this COVID-19 , this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ nervous about what could happen going forward in the coming weeks and coming months .
Marc Steiner : So let ’ s take some of these things you just talked about .
Let ’ s start with the politics of this for a moment , but I want to get to the favelas and the indigenous communities and talk about what ’ s happening there that we ’ re not seeing and kind of the dangers there .
But you have in Brazil right now , even his own health minister .
If @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , right ?
Marc Steiner : So he came out , I mean actually saying that Bolsonaro was wrong .
And pushing back and also he had threatened to fire him and now you have 23 to 27 state governors saying they we have to go and lockdown and actually defying and criticizing Bolsonaro .
So what are the politics of corona as they stand now ?
Michael Fox : So you have several things that are happening .
First of all , I think it ’ s important to look at the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ data full year survey that was released just a couple of days ago , 76 % of the country are in favor , actually support Mandetta .
76 % of the country are in favor of the lockdowns and over 50 % of the population , according to this latest survey , says that Bolsonaro is doing more to harm the fight against coronavirus than he is to help it .
So that ’ s just kind of a quick vision of how Brazilians are seeing at this moment , right ?
That @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Bolsonaro appears on national television , you have people banging pots and pans protesting his government across the country .
And Bolsonaro , he ’ s actually been kind of rolling back his intense criticism of the quarantines and of the lockdowns just in recent days .
But you have several different things that are happening .
First of all , Bolsonaro says that the economy is number one .
This is kind of what he ran on and so he ’ s been saying , “ Listen , we ’ ve got @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ ve got to get back in the streets.
” He ’ s afraid of what could happen .
And partially he ’ s afraid of it because he ’ s actually been selling off the dollar reserves that Brazil has .
He ’ s been privatized the country .
That ’ s been kind of him and his neo liberal finance minister Paulo Gedes .
That ’ s been kind of the goal .
So this is roll back their ability to do that .
And they ’ ve actually had to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ instance , one of the things that the Senate approved last week is a 600 real , so about $ 114.00 stipend for informal workers .
So this is going to benefit millions of informal workers in the country .
This is approved by the Senate .
It ’ s been signed into law by Bolsonaro and they say that it could roll out this week .
So this is the government that ’ s been trying to privatize and now it actually has to offer the support to communities in need .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ the economy , which Bolsonaro says is foremost that people have to get back to work .
At the other hand , you have an evangelical community that is huge .
It ’ s been rising in recent years .
25 % of Brazil is now evangelical and these people have been staunch supporters of Bolsonaro .
And that ’ s something Bolsonaro , he called yesterday for a day of prayer and a day of fast against coronavirus .
And you had people praying and fasting .
You have some of the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ crisis and in fact some of the major supporters of Bolsonaro , the evangelical priests , have said that no one is going to get coronavirus in our churches .
So you have these different politics that are happening kind of underneath all of this at the same time .
And Bolsonaro is really trying to play to his base .
It ’ s the same thing that Donald Trump did for a long time until it got too much , until it actually became a crisis he could not handle .
And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ re seeing at this point .
He ’ s been speaking to his base .
Bolsonaro knows that he has about a third of the country .
That ’ s been his approval rating and that ’ s been his support since the very beginning .
And he knows that ’ s going to stay the same .
We ’ ve also seen this rise in fake news , kind of like what we ’ ve seen in the US and elsewhere .
And this rise in conspiracy theories .
People are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and that ’ s what really is behind this coronavirus .
That it ’ s not real , it ’ s not really a big deal .
It ’ s really about the New World Order trying to take over and Bolsonaro is trying to fight that .
So you have all these tensions that are happening .
Obviously the politics in the middle of his government are huge .
24 top members of his government had themselves come down with the coronavirus , which they contracted during their trip to visit with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ irony here is absolutely fantastic .
But within his government , obviously he ’ s been saying a lot of things and they ’ ve just been fighting against it .
He ’ s gotten into fights with these state governors and they ’ ve really been able to push back on this .
Thankfully Bolsonaro is really not the one guiding the country in terms of coronavirus policies .
Thankfully that could save the country .
Marc Steiner : So when you ’ re looking at this , I mean , so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I mean same here with Trump or in Britain with Barrs , whatever else .
This can go either way politically , depending on how this tumbles out .
I mean , if the 23 governors are successful in limiting the spread of the virus in their states where there are lockdowns , it actually could go to Bolsonaro ’ s benefit .
I mean , I don ’ t want people dying in Brazil , but I want the governors to do what they ’ re doing , but this also goes @ @ @ @ @ @ @ end .
Saying , “ Look , see , we made it through ” .
I mean all that ’ s all possible .
Michael Fox : Absolutely .
I mean , right now everything is up in the air .
That ’ s what we know that COVID-19 has done .
And it ’ s anyone ’ s guess what this is going to look like in a couple of months .
five or six months from now .
We do know that for instance , Trump ’ s approval ratings have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ stayed kind of steady at this point .
It ’ s really hard to say what could happen going forward .
Bolsonaro , like Trump , is not someone to apologize .
He ’ s not going to come out in the end and say , “ Oh yeah , sorry , that was crazy of me .
I shouldn ’ t have done that.
” He ’ s going to come out and he ’ s going to take a responsibility for whatever happened , unless something bad happens and millions die @ @ @ @ @ @ @ try and blame that on everybody else .
So we know that those are the policies .
We know that that ’ s the discourse .
That ’ s the way that they ’ re seeing it and they ’ re trying to angle it however best they can .
But we have no clue what ’ s going to happen going forward here , politically here in Brazil .
Marc Steiner : So let me move the conversation a bit here to actually the people of Brazil .
And too deeply affected @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
The indigenous people and the people are living in the favelas , the slums in the cities of Brazil .
But let me start with the indigenous population .
I mean that ’ s been one of Bolsonaro ’ s battles , taking away the rights of indigenous people , opening up to mining and logging .
The governors of Amazonia and the other provinces or right-wingers and the indigenous people are terrified this disease is going to come in and wipe them out like other diseases have in the past several @ @ @ @ @ @ @ us more about this .
An indigenous leader was just killed two days ago .
So what about that dynamic ?
Michael Fox : Absolutely .
This is probably the major population here in Brazil that people are most concerned about is Brazil ’ s almost a million indigenous population .
Almost a million indigenous peoples .
And they ’ re spread out all around Northern Brazil , throughout the South .
You have various different dynamics that are happening , but everybody is extremely nervous .
I ’ ve been talking with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , over last couple of weeks .
I was in the Amazon about two and a half weeks ago , met with indigenous communities , visited their homes .
And even then they were very nervous about what kind of an impact this could have .
And why ?
Just like you mentioned Mark , it was back just a couple of years ago where a major bout of the flu ran through many indigenous communities outside of Alta Meta .
More than 100 members of indigenous tribes were had to be taken @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hospitals .
Children died .
And people are very afraid of the potential of this happening the same way if it spreads in these communities because they ’ re so far .
They ’ re so far isolated , right ?
So how do you get them medical attention if they have to be brought to a hospital ?
It ’ s many of these communities , it takes days to get in and out unless you have a plane .
There are so many questions .
And you also don ’ t @ @ @ @ @ @ @ many of these communities , a doctor who might himself or herself be contagious with the virus .
That ’ s what ’ s so complicated about this moment , right ?
So I was speaking with Andre Karapuna from the Karapuna Community out in Han Donya .
I was speaking with him last night and he said , “ Listen , we ’ re on lockdown .
We ’ re not leaving .
I ’ ve told everyone that they ’ re used to traveling back and forth every month or every @ @ @ @ @ @ @ said , “ We ’ re not going anywhere unless it ’ s an absolute emergency and we ’ re hoping to just wait this thing out.
” Now what ’ s really complicated is at the same time as this is happening with coronavirus , you still the invasions in indigenous communities by illegal loggers , by illegal miners .
And that ’ s what happened just a couple of days ago in like you said , with another death from this indigenous community and Maranhao in the Eastern most Amazonian state @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they ’ re still kind of invading indigenous territories .
And the fear from indigenous communities is that with more people in lockdown with less inspections going on from the Brazilian government , that can then empower land grabbers and illegal loggers to really push further into the Amazon and purse forth even faster than before and to indigenous communities .
You have 20,000 illegal miners according to reports just in the Yanomami territory alone in Hort Ima and Amazonas right near the Venezuelan border .
20,000 illegal miners .
And the fear @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
So the fears , they can also be spreading this disease to the Yanomami Community .
So there ’ s so many things that are happening and that ’ s not even to get into the reality with the fires .
In another couple of months , it ’ s going to be summertime up there .
Things are going to be hot .
The fire is going to start again because they were started last year by land owners clearing land and by people trying to push into indigenous territories .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ happen again .
But how are people going to put out those fires if everybody is still on lockdown ?
Because right now it ’ s also important to look at , in Brazil , we have a situation where in the United States you ’ re heading into the summer .
So people are encouraged by that , that might help to slow the push of coronavirus around the country .
Brazil ’ s headed into winter .
So it ’ s the exact opposite .
People are very nervous about the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ months as the weather starts to get colder .
Marc Steiner : And then the other population to talk about here are the other people who live in the favelas all through Brazil .
I mean , there was a quote I read in the BBC this morning by Gilson Rodrigues , who is a leader of one of the favelas , who said , “ Jair Bolsonaro will be partly responsible for any deaths because he ’ s creating this situation .
It ’ s as if the 13 million people who @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ t exist .
There ’ s been no policy to look after the country ’ s favelas .
We ’ re here , left to fend for ourselves.
” So that ’ s another situation which involves a huge portion of Afro Brazilians as well as other Brazilians .
Michael Fox : Absolutely .
I spoke with an infectious doctor , retired infectious doctor just a couple of weeks ago , and he was saying this is his biggest concern is the income inequality in Brazil and the very high poverty because @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a universal public health system .
But that is not spread equally around the country .
And so people in the favelas A , have more difficult access to healthcare .
And B , they ’ re living in very , very difficult situations .
They ’ re in much more dense populations .
40 million people don ’ t have access to water .
And so that ’ s a major issue in the favelas .
And almost half of Brazilians , there is no treatment of water systems , right ?
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ treatment systems .
So that means that they ’ re now in Brazil seeing how this virus could be surviving in the sewers as well .
So that ’ s a whole other question .
But I was speaking with a woman who lives in the Paraisopolis Favela just last night , which is just North of Rio de Janeiro .
She was out yesterday bringing food to poor communities , kind of in her own neighborhood and also in other neighborhoods nearby .
Where she lives is an area which is just @ @ @ @ @ @ @ right along occluded waterfront .
The streets are dirt .
Many of the people , they survive by going out and selling things in the streets .
They survive by cutting hair .
They survive by just barely making ends meet .
Housekeeping .
Now they can ’ t get out because of the quarantine and they ’ re okay with quarantine , but they have no means of survival .
She said she spoke with a little boy who was so happy that she was bringing some food .
He said he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ nothing to eat .
He had been sucking on his pillowcase imagining that it was food .
So this is the situation that ’ s happening literally right now in Rio de Janeiro and it ’ s extremely complicated because it ’ s not like the state officials , whether it ’ s the government , federal , or even local , are out in these communities .
They ’ re supporting these people .
People should be at home .
They shouldn ’ t have to be worrying about food , but @ @ @ @ @ @ @ out doing this work .
Now , like I mentioned it was passed by the Senate just last week .
So there is a 600 real stipend that ’ s going to go to members of the informal economy and that should help .
And they said it should start to be distributed this week , but it hasn ’ t been distributed yet .
We don ’ t know how long it ’ s going to take .
And so right now people are just in these very precarious situations .
Marc @ @ @ @ @ @ @ before we close with another question here .
They read the quote .
They said 13 million people living in the favelas .
But my other [ inaudible 00:16:56 ] is a great deal more people living in favelas and the poverty in Brazil , not just 13 million out of 210 .
I mean that ’ s a little skewed , right ?
Michael Fox : Absolutely .
Absolutely .
No , there are much more .
It could be 13 million in Rio itself .
Michael Fox : And in the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Fox : Because outside of Sao Paulo , you have massive regions favelas and you have favelas in every major city that ring the city .
The favelas are created by people that move into the city and try and look for work and they find a way to build their home on top to another and then over time , they become these neighborhoods and communities and whatnot .
So no , the poverty rate has been increasing in recent years and whether or not you ’ re living in favela , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to week or day to day , this moment of having to be at home in quarantine is extremely hard .
Marc Steiner : I mean , so it just appears to me , Mike , this is a hugely vulnerable situation in Brazil .
We don ’ t know how it ’ s going to play out .
I mean many , many , many people could die and get really sick from the coronavirus in Brazil the way Bolsonaro ’ s handling things and especially even the poverty and what ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the other hand , you have all these governors of these States who are both right wingers and left wingers and an in between as well that are saying basically giving Bolsonaro the fingers saying , “ We ’ re doing this ourselves because you ’ re incompetent and we have to save the people of our communities ” .
So the questions politically and socially in terms of corona , I mean anything could happen now .
There ’ s nobody to be even slightly recant about what ’ s about to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And this is why people are so concerned .
I mean even the governor and the state were live , Santa Catarina , this is largely a right wing state .
He ’ s a member of the PSL , which is Bolsonaro ’ s party .
And it was clear about a week and a half ago that he was being pressured from Bolsonaro to change his stance .
So he said a week and a half ago he was going to lift the quarantine starting as of last week , starting @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Wednesday .
He pushed that off and it ’ s been pushed off again .
But you can tell that he wants to get things going .
He wants to bring things .
He wants to get the economy rolling , just like Bolsonaro .
Now things are obviously increasing .
They don ’ t want the pandemic to get out of proportion .
Brazil has the highest percentage of respirators per population than anywhere else in Latin America , but it still is not substantial and not enough to fulfill the need @ @ @ @ @ @ @ building field hospitals in Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro right now , but that ’ s just it .
We don ’ t know how bad this is going to get and that is really the big question .
At some point , a while back , the health minister said that at least half the population was going to have to be infected before this whole thing was over .
Now that would be over 100 million people .
And if you look at a death rate of roughly one to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ about , potentially as many as one to two million Brazilians .
But again , if they ’ re able to keep people in their homes , if they ’ re able to push this thing forward and get us over the hump , then it might not be that bad .
The estimates according to the research go from anywhere to a couple hundred thousand being infected two to millions .
So it ’ s all up in the air .
We really don ’ t know where this is going forward @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Fox , we always appreciate your work for this and I look forward to what you bring to us from Brazil , whether it ’ s your documentaries or our conversations here as this unfolds .
And thank you so much for your work and thanks for being with us here today .
Marc Steiner : And stay healthy .
Good luck to you and your wife .
Marc Steiner : And I ’ m Marc Steiner here with the Real News Network .
We want all of you to stay healthy , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be talking together soon .
Speaker 4 : Thanks a lot for watching .
Appreciate it .
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Marc Steiner: Welcome to the Real News. I’m Marc Steiner. Great to have you all with us as usual. Now more people have been affected by COVID in Brazil than any of its neighboring countries. And more people have died there as well. Mix this, Brazil’s Nero who is fiddling while Rome is burning is its president, Jair Bolsonaro, who told Brazilians to stay on the job and work. Who says he is too physically fit to get the disease and he calls it, “No more than sniffles”, while telling the people from Brazil, and this is a quote, “Some will die. I’m sorry. That’s life.”The revolt against him is palpable. His own health minister who he threatened to fire, came out against what he said. 24 of the 27 state governors representing 200 million people out of 210 million people in Brazil have put their citizens on lockdown. Both defying and criticizing Bolsonaro.What could happen in Brazil? Could this be the downfall of Bolsonaro or the opposite? What happens to the people of Brazil? We turn to Michael Fox journalist, documentary filmmaker and frequent contributor to the Real News, joining us now from Southern Brazil. And Mike, welcome back. Good to have you with us.Michael Fox: Thanks so much for having me.Marc Steiner: So this is what’s going on in Brazil right now as I’ve come read all these things and you’re in the midst of it. What I read from yesterday was that Brazil already has 11,000 confirmed cases, 486 deaths. It’s still rising. So talk a bit about this tenor of the land at the moment.Michael Fox: Yeah. And it’s now over 500 deaths just this morning.Marc Steiner: Wow!Michael Fox: So it’s increasing and it’s going to continue to increase. Thankfully the country, like you just said, the state governments have been able to really put the country as much as possible on lockdown. Brazil is not a country that follows rules very well. Brazilians don’t like to follow rules. And so that means that unless it’s a very clear lock down, you need to stay home. People are going to be out in the streets. They’re going to do what they want to do. And we’re still seeing that.So regardless, despite the lockdown, you’re still getting people out in the streets. But the big question, the big thing that everybody’s been talking about really is Bolsonaro. Bolsonaro’s take on this crisis and kind of the infighting within this government right now. Obviously people are scared. They’re afraid. They don’t know where this could head because there are millions and millions and Brazil is one of the most unequal countries in the world. Poverty has been rising in recent years since the 2016 coup. And so those people are even more under strain right now. You have indigenous communities. You have [inaudible 00:02:41] communities, black communities.And so this COVID-19, this coronavirus, is really … People are nervous about what could happen going forward in the coming weeks and coming months.
Marc Steiner: So let’s take some of these things you just talked about. Let’s start with the politics of this for a moment, but I want to get to the favelas and the indigenous communities and talk about what’s happening there that we’re not seeing and kind of the dangers there.
But you have in Brazil right now, even his own health minister. If I have his name right, Mandetta, right?
Michael Fox: That’s right.
Marc Steiner: So he came out, I mean actually saying that Bolsonaro was wrong. And pushing back and also he had threatened to fire him and now you have 23 to 27 state governors saying they we have to go and lockdown and actually defying and criticizing Bolsonaro. So what are the politics of corona as they stand now?
Michael Fox: So you have several things that are happening. First of all, I think it’s important to look at the very latest polls. According to a data full year survey that was released just a couple of days ago, 76% of the country are in favor, actually support Mandetta. 76% of the country are in favor of the lockdowns and over 50% of the population, according to this latest survey, says that Bolsonaro is doing more to harm the fight against coronavirus than he is to help it.
So that’s just kind of a quick vision of how Brazilians are seeing at this moment, right? That’s how come every single time Bolsonaro appears on national television, you have people banging pots and pans protesting his government across the country. And Bolsonaro, he’s actually been kind of rolling back his intense criticism of the quarantines and of the lockdowns just in recent days.
But you have several different things that are happening. First of all, Bolsonaro says that the economy is number one. This is kind of what he ran on and so he’s been saying, “Listen, we’ve got to get people to work. We’ve got to get back in the streets.” He’s afraid of what could happen. And partially he’s afraid of it because he’s actually been selling off the dollar reserves that Brazil has. He’s been privatized the country. That’s been kind of him and his neo liberal finance minister Paulo Gedes. That’s been kind of the goal. So this is roll back their ability to do that. And they’ve actually had to approve some anti cyclical measures. For instance, one of the things that the Senate approved last week is a 600 real, so about $114.00 stipend for informal workers. So this is going to benefit millions of informal workers in the country.
This is approved by the Senate. It’s been signed into law by Bolsonaro and they say that it could roll out this week. So this is the government that’s been trying to privatize and now it actually has to offer the support to communities in need. So on the one hand you have the economy, which Bolsonaro says is foremost that people have to get back to work. At the other hand, you have an evangelical community that is huge. It’s been rising in recent years. 25% of Brazil is now evangelical and these people have been staunch supporters of Bolsonaro.
And that’s something Bolsonaro, he called yesterday for a day of prayer and a day of fast against coronavirus. And you had people praying and fasting. You have some of the major churches have been open during this crisis and in fact some of the major supporters of Bolsonaro, the evangelical priests, have said that no one is going to get coronavirus in our churches.
So you have these different politics that are happening kind of underneath all of this at the same time. And Bolsonaro is really trying to play to his base. It’s the same thing that Donald Trump did for a long time until it got too much, until it actually became a crisis he could not handle. And that’s kind of what we’re seeing at this point. He’s been speaking to his base.
Bolsonaro knows that he has about a third of the country. That’s been his approval rating and that’s been his support since the very beginning. And he knows that’s going to stay the same. We’ve also seen this rise in fake news, kind of like what we’ve seen in the US and elsewhere. And this rise in conspiracy theories. People are talking about how the New World Order and that’s what really is behind this coronavirus. That it’s not real, it’s not really a big deal. It’s really about the New World Order trying to take over and Bolsonaro is trying to fight that.
So you have all these tensions that are happening. Obviously the politics in the middle of his government are huge. 24 top members of his government had themselves come down with the coronavirus, which they contracted during their trip to visit with Donald Trump last month. So the irony here is absolutely fantastic. But within his government, obviously he’s been saying a lot of things and they’ve just been fighting against it. He’s gotten into fights with these state governors and they’ve really been able to push back on this. Thankfully Bolsonaro is really not the one guiding the country in terms of coronavirus policies. Thankfully that could save the country.
Marc Steiner: So when you’re looking at this, I mean, so politically this could go either way. I mean same here with Trump or in Britain with Barrs, whatever else. This can go either way politically, depending on how this tumbles out. I mean, if the 23 governors are successful in limiting the spread of the virus in their states where there are lockdowns, it actually could go to Bolsonaro’s benefit. I mean, I don’t want people dying in Brazil, but I want the governors to do what they’re doing, but this also goes to the benefit of Bolsonaro in the end. Saying, “Look, see, we made it through”. I mean all that’s all possible.
Michael Fox: Absolutely. I mean, right now everything is up in the air. That’s what we know that COVID-19 has done. And it’s anyone’s guess what this is going to look like in a couple of months. five or six months from now. We do know that for instance, Trump’s approval ratings have been rising. Bolsonaro’s have stayed kind of steady at this point. It’s really hard to say what could happen going forward.
Bolsonaro, like Trump, is not someone to apologize. He’s not going to come out in the end and say, “Oh yeah, sorry, that was crazy of me. I shouldn’t have done that.” He’s going to come out and he’s going to take a responsibility for whatever happened, unless something bad happens and millions die and then he’s going to try and blame that on everybody else.
So we know that those are the policies. We know that that’s the discourse. That’s the way that they’re seeing it and they’re trying to angle it however best they can. But we have no clue what’s going to happen going forward here, politically here in Brazil.
Marc Steiner: So let me move the conversation a bit here to actually the people of Brazil. And too deeply affected parts of Brazil in terms of population. The indigenous people and the people are living in the favelas, the slums in the cities of Brazil. But let me start with the indigenous population. I mean that’s been one of Bolsonaro’s battles, taking away the rights of indigenous people, opening up to mining and logging. The governors of Amazonia and the other provinces or right-wingers and the indigenous people are terrified this disease is going to come in and wipe them out like other diseases have in the past several hundred years. And you can tell us more about this. An indigenous leader was just killed two days ago. So what about that dynamic?
Michael Fox: Absolutely. This is probably the major population here in Brazil that people are most concerned about is Brazil’s almost a million indigenous population. Almost a million indigenous peoples. And they’re spread out all around Northern Brazil, throughout the South. You have various different dynamics that are happening, but everybody is extremely nervous.
I’ve been talking with indigenous leaders over the last few days, over last couple of weeks. I was in the Amazon about two and a half weeks ago, met with indigenous communities, visited their homes. And even then they were very nervous about what kind of an impact this could have. And why?
Just like you mentioned Mark, it was back just a couple of years ago where a major bout of the flu ran through many indigenous communities outside of Alta Meta. More than 100 members of indigenous tribes were had to be taken out of their territory and brought to hospitals. Children died. And people are very afraid of the potential of this happening the same way if it spreads in these communities because they’re so far. They’re so far isolated, right?
So how do you get them medical attention if they have to be brought to a hospital? It’s many of these communities, it takes days to get in and out unless you have a plane. There are so many questions. And you also don’t necessarily want to bring a doctor into many of these communities, a doctor who might himself or herself be contagious with the virus. That’s what’s so complicated about this moment, right?
So I was speaking with Andre Karapuna from the Karapuna Community out in Han Donya. I was speaking with him last night and he said, “Listen, we’re on lockdown. We’re not leaving. I’ve told everyone that they’re used to traveling back and forth every month or every two months to the city.” He said, “We’re not going anywhere unless it’s an absolute emergency and we’re hoping to just wait this thing out.”
Now what’s really complicated is at the same time as this is happening with coronavirus, you still the invasions in indigenous communities by illegal loggers, by illegal miners. And that’s what happened just a couple of days ago in like you said, with another death from this indigenous community and Maranhao in the Eastern most Amazonian state of Maranhao.
So these communities, they’re still kind of invading indigenous territories. And the fear from indigenous communities is that with more people in lockdown with less inspections going on from the Brazilian government, that can then empower land grabbers and illegal loggers to really push further into the Amazon and purse forth even faster than before and to indigenous communities. You have 20,000 illegal miners according to reports just in the Yanomami territory alone in Hort Ima and Amazonas right near the Venezuelan border. 20,000 illegal miners.
And the fear is they have contact with the community. So the fears, they can also be spreading this disease to the Yanomami Community. So there’s so many things that are happening and that’s not even to get into the reality with the fires. In another couple of months, it’s going to be summertime up there. Things are going to be hot. The fire is going to start again because they were started last year by land owners clearing land and by people trying to push into indigenous territories. They’re most likely going to happen again. But how are people going to put out those fires if everybody is still on lockdown? Because right now it’s also important to look at, in Brazil, we have a situation where in the United States you’re heading into the summer. So people are encouraged by that, that might help to slow the push of coronavirus around the country. Brazil’s headed into winter. So it’s the exact opposite. People are very nervous about the spikes that could happen in the coming months as the weather starts to get colder.
Marc Steiner: And then the other population to talk about here are the other people who live in the favelas all through Brazil. I mean, there was a quote I read in the BBC this morning by Gilson Rodrigues, who is a leader of one of the favelas, who said, “Jair Bolsonaro will be partly responsible for any deaths because he’s creating this situation. It’s as if the 13 million people who live in the slums in Brazil don’t exist. There’s been no policy to look after the country’s favelas. We’re here, left to fend for ourselves.”
So that’s another situation which involves a huge portion of Afro Brazilians as well as other Brazilians.
Michael Fox: Absolutely. I spoke with an infectious doctor, retired infectious doctor just a couple of weeks ago, and he was saying this is his biggest concern is the income inequality in Brazil and the very high poverty because what Brazil has going for it is a universal public health system. But that is not spread equally around the country. And so people in the favelas A, have more difficult access to healthcare. And B, they’re living in very, very difficult situations. They’re in much more dense populations. 40 million people don’t have access to water. And so that’s a major issue in the favelas. And almost half of Brazilians, there is no treatment of water systems, right? So there is no public treatment sewage treatment systems. So that means that they’re now in Brazil seeing how this virus could be surviving in the sewers as well. So that’s a whole other question.
But I was speaking with a woman who lives in the Paraisopolis Favela just last night, which is just North of Rio de Janeiro. She was out yesterday bringing food to poor communities, kind of in her own neighborhood and also in other neighborhoods nearby. Where she lives is an area which is just built of shacks. It’s right along occluded waterfront. The streets are dirt. Many of the people, they survive by going out and selling things in the streets. They survive by cutting hair. They survive by just barely making ends meet. Housekeeping.
Now they can’t get out because of the quarantine and they’re okay with quarantine, but they have no means of survival. She said she spoke with a little boy who was so happy that she was bringing some food. He said he had been that night because they had nothing to eat. He had been sucking on his pillowcase imagining that it was food. So this is the situation that’s happening literally right now in Rio de Janeiro and it’s extremely complicated because it’s not like the state officials, whether it’s the government, federal, or even local, are out in these communities.
They’re supporting these people. People should be at home. They shouldn’t have to be worrying about food, but even the state officials aren’t out doing this work. Now, like I mentioned it was passed by the Senate just last week. So there is a 600 real stipend that’s going to go to members of the informal economy and that should help. And they said it should start to be distributed this week, but it hasn’t been distributed yet. We don’t know how long it’s going to take. And so right now people are just in these very precarious situations.
Marc Steiner: So the one quick thing before we close with another question here. They read the quote. They said 13 million people living in the favelas. But my other [inaudible 00:16:56] is a great deal more people living in favelas and the poverty in Brazil, not just 13 million out of 210. I mean that’s a little skewed, right?
Michael Fox: Absolutely. Absolutely. No, there are much more. It could be 13 million in Rio itself.
Marc Steiner: Right.
Michael Fox: And in the state of Rio as well.
Marc Steiner: That’s right.
Michael Fox: Because outside of Sao Paulo, you have massive regions favelas and you have favelas in every major city that ring the city. The favelas are created by people that move into the city and try and look for work and they find a way to build their home on top to another and then over time, they become these neighborhoods and communities and whatnot. So no, the poverty rate has been increasing in recent years and whether or not you’re living in favela, if you’re living a week to week or day to day, this moment of having to be at home in quarantine is extremely hard.
Marc Steiner: I mean, so it just appears to me, Mike, this is a hugely vulnerable situation in Brazil. We don’t know how it’s going to play out. I mean many, many, many people could die and get really sick from the coronavirus in Brazil the way Bolsonaro’s handling things and especially even the poverty and what’s happening in indigenous communities.
On the other hand, you have all these governors of these States who are both right wingers and left wingers and an in between as well that are saying basically giving Bolsonaro the fingers saying, “We’re doing this ourselves because you’re incompetent and we have to save the people of our communities”. So the questions politically and socially in terms of corona, I mean anything could happen now. There’s nobody to be even slightly recant about what’s about to happen.
Michael Fox: Absolutely. And this is why people are so concerned. I mean even the governor and the state were live, Santa Catarina, this is largely a right wing state. He’s a member of the PSL, which is Bolsonaro’s party. And it was clear about a week and a half ago that he was being pressured from Bolsonaro to change his stance. So he said a week and a half ago he was going to lift the quarantine starting as of last week, starting Monday and opening everything up as of Wednesday. He pushed that off and it’s been pushed off again. But you can tell that he wants to get things going. He wants to bring things. He wants to get the economy rolling, just like Bolsonaro.
Now things are obviously increasing. They don’t want the pandemic to get out of proportion. Brazil has the highest percentage of respirators per population than anywhere else in Latin America, but it still is not substantial and not enough to fulfill the need of the population.
They’re building field hospitals in Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro right now, but that’s just it. We don’t know how bad this is going to get and that is really the big question. At some point, a while back, the health minister said that at least half the population was going to have to be infected before this whole thing was over. Now that would be over 100 million people. And if you look at a death rate of roughly one to 2% and we’re talking about, potentially as many as one to two million Brazilians.
But again, if they’re able to keep people in their homes, if they’re able to push this thing forward and get us over the hump, then it might not be that bad. The estimates according to the research go from anywhere to a couple hundred thousand being infected two to millions. So it’s all up in the air. We really don’t know where this is going forward.
Marc Steiner: Well, Mike Fox, we always appreciate your work for this and I look forward to what you bring to us from Brazil, whether it’s your documentaries or our conversations here as this unfolds. And thank you so much for your work and thanks for being with us here today.
Michael Fox: Excellent. Thanks, Marc.
Marc Steiner: And stay healthy. Good luck to you and your wife.
Michael Fox: You, too.
Marc Steiner: And I’m Marc Steiner here with the Real News Network. We want all of you to stay healthy, stay safe. And we’ll be talking together soon.
Speaker 4: Thanks a lot for watching. Appreciate it. But do us one more solemn favor. Hit the subscribe button below. You know you want to. Stay up on new videos.


therealnews--2020-04-09--Stir Crazy! Episode #10: Dying to Vote

Stir Crazy! Episode #10: Dying to Vote

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therealnews--2020-04-08--This is Not a Drill: LIVE, Hosted by Organizing Upgrade

Now is the time to move beyond demands to strategy. Join us for the next episode of This is Not a Drill: LIVE as we talk 2020 political and electoral strategy in the face of a global pandemic.
Hosts Adam Gold and Rishi Awatramani are joined by an all-star guest line-up of Vijay Prashad, Phillip Agnew, Angela Lang, and Laurel Wales to discuss strategic questions facing left organizers at this crucial historical juncture.
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Vijay Prashad, Tricontinental: Institute for Social Research
Phil Agnew, Smoke Signals Studio MIA
Angela Lang, Black Leaders Organizing for Communities
Laurel Wales, People’s Action
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