therealnews--2020-03-05--Why Is There a Boom in CEO Resignations?

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
In 2019 , a record number of 1640 CEOs resigned from major corporations .
For January 2020 alone , the number was 219 , indicating that CEO departures could reach an even higher number this year .
Prominent CEOs to leave or announce their departures in 2020 include the CEOs of Match Group , [ inaudible 00:00:28 ] , L Brands , Outdoor Voices , MasterCard , Fastly , Harley Davidson , IBM , T-mobile , LinkedIn , and Disney , among many others .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ why has the number been increasing recently ?
The reasons seem to vary .
Some analysts talk about a management restructuring , some say it ’ s because of a failure to meet the company ’ s goals , others definitely have stepped down because of sexual harassment scandals or because of a failure to address sexual misconduct within their companies .
But it can not be necessarily a coincidence that CEOs are departing at an increasing rate .
The trend calls for an analysis of what is going on , for which @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Bill is a white collar criminologist , former financial regulator , and associate professor of economics and law at the University of Missouri , Kansas City .
He ’ s also the author of the book The Best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One .
Thanks for joining us again , Bill .
Greg Wilpert : So , Fortune Magazine says that the reason for the record number of CEO resignations is the MeToo movement because so many CEOs got entangled in scandals over sexual misconduct , either themselves @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to what was happening in their own companies .
Do you agree with that analysis ?
Bill Black : No , but that is a contributor .
It is actually one of the remarkable changes in the last several years that one of the best ways for really powerful CEOs to lose their job is to have what used to be described as a consensual sexual relationship with a subordinate .
Greg Wilpert : So one of the things that ’ s happened is that CEO compensation skyrocketed during the second half of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to accelerate since then .
Some sociologists and economists have even argued that the economy entered a managerial revolution in the 1940s and 50s and that we are now in what could be called managerial capitalism , where managers constitute the new ruling class instead of the owners of companies [ inaudible 00:02:30 ] .
Would you agree with that ?
And if so , what does such a high CEO turnover mean for how the upper echelons of our society is run ?
Bill Black : Okay , so to do the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ had the rise first of the robber barons , as they were called .
These were individuals that not only ran their own companies , they ran all the competitive companies , and the reason we call it antitrust is that there were trust agreements drawn up by the lawyers that facilitated this , that gave one person effective power over all the seeming competitors .
So those were the bigger than life entrepreneurs who , you know , literally said money was something you should throw off the back of trains , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ first manager revolution , and that ’ s more the 30s and 40s and 50s , and GM is the quintessential example of that , and it was in contrast to Ford Motor Company .
Ford Motor Company of course run by an entrepreneur , GM run by professional managers who had MBAs and such , which didn ’ t use to be a particular really good way of becoming the head of a company and such .
Then they had the current revolution , which is more the 70s is when it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ huge by the 80s .
And I ’ ll give just a super brief version .
The other thing that ’ s happening at the same time is all kinds of entities that used to be key restraints , the investment banks , the accounting firms , the credit rating agencies and such , used to be owned in true partnership form , and that meant that all the general partners were subject to what ’ s called joint and several liability .
What that means is , you , the general partner @ @ @ @ @ @ @ need not have done anything wrong .
If any of your general partners do anything wrong that causes losses , you personally are on the hook for all of the losses of the partnership .
They can come and take your home , your art collection , all those kinds of things .
You can imagine that that made people a whole lot more reluctant to make other people partners because they were on the hook for what they did and made them monitor it as well .
So when they move away @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this is the era of the massive stock benefits and such .
This is the revolution in corporate pay .
And the analytics , the way it was sold was , oh , the problem is managers aren ’ t taking enough risks .
Their fuddy duddies .
The only way to get fired is to take a big risk and lose , so they , you know , don ’ t do much and that ’ s why the United States isn ’ t as productive as it used to be because @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the interest of the corporation .
So we will align the interests of the CEO with the shareholders by giving them huge stock positions , and that will mean there ’ ll great managers and they ’ ll take much more risks , and of course we did this and we made the CEOs massively wealthy .
We made it , you know , child ’ s play for them to engage in accounting fraud , to report huge short term gains , and they based their pay , not as economists said @ @ @ @ @ @ @ but on short term pay , which is of course far easier to manipulate .
So that is the , you know , the revolution that has brought us the disaster .
And by the way , instead of producing record gains in productivity , productivity gains have roughly been cut in half under this managerial revolution .
Greg Wilpert : Well , the point that you make about connecting CEO compensation to the stock performance is something very important and something many people have analyzed , and of course , obviously , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
And what I ’ m wondering though is that if that ’ s the case , that of course would also tie the compensation and the work of the CEOs very closely , not just to the stock price , but the stock price is also to some extent dependent on perceptions .
So , in other words , I ’ m wondering if maybe the trend , you know , the MeToo movement and sexual harassment , the general perception of a company ’ s performance and its ethics , is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ CEO ’ s ability to act , essentially , and if that ’ s one of the things , in other words , perception becoming more important than perhaps actual productivity and performance .
Bill Black : I don ’ t think that aspect of it , but perhaps something a little bit analogous that makes your point or draws on your point about perceptions .
So all of this has meant that investors are super , super short term oriented , and that means corporations do all kinds of things that are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ productivity in the longer run , but which will boost share prices this quarter .
So in addition to all the usual , you know , frauds that I talk about using accounting , they simply now , and if anyone wants to read , read professor [ inaudible 00:08:24 ] on this , they do unbelievably huge stock buybacks .
So instead of building productive things with their retained earnings , they buy back stock using the corporation ’ s money , which has the effect of raising stock prices .
So @ @ @ @ @ @ @ right about now is that all of these folks have , you know , had the greatest opportunity to big pigs at the trough in modern history , and that was the Trump tax cut .
So again , what really wealthy people put their money in is not so much yachts , because you can only buy so many yachts , is the stock market .
All right ?
And so when you give enormous trillion dollar cuts in taxes of the wealthy people , what are they going to do with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you know , after tax income , they ’ re going to buy more stock , and you ’ re going to get this huge run up in stocks .
That can only work for so long and we ’ re overdue for recessions , and we don ’ t know exactly what ’ s going to cause it , but , you know , most people think recessions are coming relatively soon .
Obviously the coronavirus is pushing a number of countries over that margin into near-term recessions .
So I think @ @ @ @ @ @ @ incredibly filthy rich .
They don ’ t need money , and they certainly don ’ t need their current job .
Greg Wilpert : That ’ s an interesting point , but that brings me to my next and last question , which is that , you know , you have this basic trend of something that we ’ ve of course talked about everywhere , and progressives in general and Bernie Sanders certainly has pointed it out , is extreme growth in income inequality and in the fact that CEOs are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they have the luxury of being able to resign from a job that they ’ re feeling is getting too stressful .
I ’ m wondering though about what that also says about , you know , the other tier and the relationship between the two , that is , the workers don ’ t have that luxury .
If anything , especially if they are contingent workers or if they ’ re part time workers or if they ’ re working on a contract or something like that , there ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ m wondering if these resignations could be a sign of that , the continuation , basically , of these two worlds , of between management and basically the lower two thirds of society .
What do you think ?
Bill Black : Oh , absolutely .
What you have to do , and Jack Welsh has just died at GE , and his nickname that he was proud of was Neutron Jack after the neutron bomb that kills people , but leaves the building standing .
So he was infamous for firing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ yank , which is , we will say that we ’ re firing you because you were a poor performer .
So not only will you lose your job , you ’ ll be stigmatized for life .
But who was really being fired ?
The people who weren ’ t to play the accounting scams , right ?
So the best people were being fired and being labeled as the worst people , and the stock price was surging under all of this .
I would like to say , you know @ @ @ @ @ @ @ don ’ t want to do that .
I frankly don ’ t think many CEOs resigned because they ’ re unwilling to do this .
I ’ m going to describe documents which you can get online .
These are the plutonomy memos by Citi to their wealthiest clients , and they call this a managerial aristocracy .
That ’ s their phrase .
They say it creates a plutonomy .
In other words , an economy in which virtually all the wealth is held by a tiny group of folks and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ smaller pie , and they say , since the elections are coming , the key thing , problem , the key risk we have is workers still get to vote and they may eventually go to the polls and stop this .
So they described that as a risk to the continuation of this managerial aristocracy and this ability to take virtually all of the , again , reduced gains because they ’ re doing stupid things in the way they run the companies that greatly reduced productivity .
So it ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ justification was a trickle down ?
Well , you get a big pie , and even if you don ’ t get much of it , as long as the pie is growing , great .
Well now , the growth of the pie has been dramatically reduced by these scams .
And as I said , Citi openly says this is going to get even more extreme unless and until the voters rebel .
Greg Wilpert : Wow .
Well this is a good point to end , especially considering that in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , you know , Super Tuesday and the primary season , but we ’ re going to leave it there for now .
I was speaking to Bill Black , associate professor of economics and law at the University of Missouri , Kansas City .
Thanks again , Bill , for having joined us today .
Greg Wilpert : And thank you for joining the Real News Network .

CEO resignations reached an all-time high in 2019. Is the corporate model of management fundamentally changing? We speak to white collar criminologist Bill Black.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Greg Wilpert: It’s the Real News Network. I’m Greg Wilpert in Arlington, Virginia.
In 2019, a record number of 1640 CEOs resigned from major corporations. For January 2020 alone, the number was 219, indicating that CEO departures could reach an even higher number this year. Prominent CEOs to leave or announce their departures in 2020 include the CEOs of Match Group, [inaudible 00:00:28], L Brands, Outdoor Voices, MasterCard, Fastly, Harley Davidson, IBM, T-mobile, LinkedIn, and Disney, among many others. Why are so many CEOs resigning and why has the number been increasing recently?
The reasons seem to vary. Some analysts talk about a management restructuring, some say it’s because of a failure to meet the company’s goals, others definitely have stepped down because of sexual harassment scandals or because of a failure to address sexual misconduct within their companies. But it cannot be necessarily a coincidence that CEOs are departing at an increasing rate. The trend calls for an analysis of what is going on, for which we have our guests Bill Black today.
Bill is a white collar criminologist, former financial regulator, and associate professor of economics and law at the University of Missouri, Kansas City. He’s also the author of the book The Best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One. Thanks for joining us again, Bill.
Bill Black: Thank you.
Greg Wilpert: So, Fortune Magazine says that the reason for the record number of CEO resignations is the MeToo movement because so many CEOs got entangled in scandals over sexual misconduct, either themselves, or for turning a blind eye to what was happening in their own companies. Do you agree with that analysis?
Bill Black: No, but that is a contributor. It is actually one of the remarkable changes in the last several years that one of the best ways for really powerful CEOs to lose their job is to have what used to be described as a consensual sexual relationship with a subordinate.
Greg Wilpert: So one of the things that’s happened is that CEO compensation skyrocketed during the second half of the 20th century and has only continued to accelerate since then. Some sociologists and economists have even argued that the economy entered a managerial revolution in the 1940s and 50s and that we are now in what could be called managerial capitalism, where managers constitute the new ruling class instead of the owners of companies [inaudible 00:02:30]. Would you agree with that? And if so, what does such a high CEO turnover mean for how the upper echelons of our society is run?
Bill Black: Okay, so to do the super brief version of this, we had the rise first of the robber barons, as they were called. These were individuals that not only ran their own companies, they ran all the competitive companies, and the reason we call it antitrust is that there were trust agreements drawn up by the lawyers that facilitated this, that gave one person effective power over all the seeming competitors. So those were the bigger than life entrepreneurs who, you know, literally said money was something you should throw off the back of trains, and were notorious.
Then came the first manager revolution, and that’s more the 30s and 40s and 50s, and GM is the quintessential example of that, and it was in contrast to Ford Motor Company. Ford Motor Company of course run by an entrepreneur, GM run by professional managers who had MBAs and such, which didn’t use to be a particular really good way of becoming the head of a company and such.
Then they had the current revolution, which is more the 70s is when it starts taking off and it’s huge by the 80s. And I’ll give just a super brief version. The other thing that’s happening at the same time is all kinds of entities that used to be key restraints, the investment banks, the accounting firms, the credit rating agencies and such, used to be owned in true partnership form, and that meant that all the general partners were subject to what’s called joint and several liability. What that means is, you, the general partner, one of the general partners, need not have done anything wrong. If any of your general partners do anything wrong that causes losses, you personally are on the hook for all of the losses of the partnership. They can come and take your home, your art collection, all those kinds of things.
You can imagine that that made people a whole lot more reluctant to make other people partners because they were on the hook for what they did and made them monitor it as well. So when they move away from partnership to corporation, whoa, this is the era of the massive stock benefits and such. This is the revolution in corporate pay. And the analytics, the way it was sold was, oh, the problem is managers aren’t taking enough risks. Their fuddy duddies. The only way to get fired is to take a big risk and lose, so they, you know, don’t do much and that’s why the United States isn’t as productive as it used to be because they pursue their own interests instead of the interest of the corporation.
So we will align the interests of the CEO with the shareholders by giving them huge stock positions, and that will mean there’ll great managers and they’ll take much more risks, and of course we did this and we made the CEOs massively wealthy. We made it, you know, child’s play for them to engage in accounting fraud, to report huge short term gains, and they based their pay, not as economists said that you should on longterm performance, but on short term pay, which is of course far easier to manipulate.
So that is the, you know, the revolution that has brought us the disaster. And by the way, instead of producing record gains in productivity, productivity gains have roughly been cut in half under this managerial revolution.
Greg Wilpert: Well, the point that you make about connecting CEO compensation to the stock performance is something very important and something many people have analyzed, and of course, obviously, that’s become the main trend. And what I’m wondering though is that if that’s the case, that of course would also tie the compensation and the work of the CEOs very closely, not just to the stock price, but the stock price is also to some extent dependent on perceptions.
So, in other words, I’m wondering if maybe the trend, you know, the MeToo movement and sexual harassment, the general perception of a company’s performance and its ethics, is ending up having an impact on the CEO’s ability to act, essentially, and if that’s one of the things, in other words, perception becoming more important than perhaps actual productivity and performance.
Bill Black: I don’t think that aspect of it, but perhaps something a little bit analogous that makes your point or draws on your point about perceptions.
So all of this has meant that investors are super, super short term oriented, and that means corporations do all kinds of things that are stupid for the economy, stupid for productivity in the longer run, but which will boost share prices this quarter. So in addition to all the usual, you know, frauds that I talk about using accounting, they simply now, and if anyone wants to read, read professor [inaudible 00:08:24] on this, they do unbelievably huge stock buybacks. So instead of building productive things with their retained earnings, they buy back stock using the corporation’s money, which has the effect of raising stock prices.
So I think what’s really changing right about now is that all of these folks have, you know, had the greatest opportunity to big pigs at the trough in modern history, and that was the Trump tax cut. So again, what really wealthy people put their money in is not so much yachts, because you can only buy so many yachts, is the stock market. All right? And so when you give enormous trillion dollar cuts in taxes of the wealthy people, what are they going to do with all that additional income? Well, you know, after tax income, they’re going to buy more stock, and you’re going to get this huge run up in stocks.
That can only work for so long and we’re overdue for recessions, and we don’t know exactly what’s going to cause it, but, you know, most people think recessions are coming relatively soon. Obviously the coronavirus is pushing a number of countries over that margin into near-term recessions. So I think that first, all these people got incredibly filthy rich. They don’t need money, and they certainly don’t need their current job.
Greg Wilpert: That’s an interesting point, but that brings me to my next and last question, which is that, you know, you have this basic trend of something that we’ve of course talked about everywhere, and progressives in general and Bernie Sanders certainly has pointed it out, is extreme growth in income inequality and in the fact that CEOs are doing so well. Of course, they have the luxury of being able to resign from a job that they’re feeling is getting too stressful.
I’m wondering though about what that also says about, you know, the other tier and the relationship between the two, that is, the workers don’t have that luxury. If anything, especially if they are contingent workers or if they’re part time workers or if they’re working on a contract or something like that, there’s a huge division clearly, and I’m wondering if these resignations could be a sign of that, the continuation, basically, of these two worlds, of between management and basically the lower two thirds of society. What do you think?
Bill Black: Oh, absolutely. What you have to do, and Jack Welsh has just died at GE, and his nickname that he was proud of was Neutron Jack after the neutron bomb that kills people, but leaves the building standing. So he was infamous for firing people. He was infamous for ranking yank, which is, we will say that we’re firing you because you were a poor performer. So not only will you lose your job, you’ll be stigmatized for life. But who was really being fired? The people who weren’t to play the accounting scams, right? So the best people were being fired and being labeled as the worst people, and the stock price was surging under all of this.
I would like to say, you know, that CEOs are resigning because they don’t want to do that. I frankly don’t think many CEOs resigned because they’re unwilling to do this.
I’m going to describe documents which you can get online. These are the plutonomy memos by Citi to their wealthiest clients, and they call this a managerial aristocracy. That’s their phrase. They say it creates a plutonomy. In other words, an economy in which virtually all the wealth is held by a tiny group of folks and where the workers get a smaller and smaller pie, and they say, since the elections are coming, the key thing, problem, the key risk we have is workers still get to vote and they may eventually go to the polls and stop this.
So they described that as a risk to the continuation of this managerial aristocracy and this ability to take virtually all of the, again, reduced gains because they’re doing stupid things in the way they run the companies that greatly reduced productivity. So it’s a smaller pie. Remember, the justification was a trickle down? Well, you get a big pie, and even if you don’t get much of it, as long as the pie is growing, great. Well now, the growth of the pie has been dramatically reduced by these scams. And as I said, Citi openly says this is going to get even more extreme unless and until the voters rebel.
Greg Wilpert: Wow. Well this is a good point to end, especially considering that in the middle of this week’s, you know, Super Tuesday and the primary season, but we’re going to leave it there for now. I was speaking to Bill Black, associate professor of economics and law at the University of Missouri, Kansas City. Thanks again, Bill, for having joined us today.
Bill Black: Thank you.
Greg Wilpert: And thank you for joining the Real News Network.
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Production: Genevieve Montinar, Bababtunde Ogunfolaju, Andrew Corkery
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therealnews--2020-03-05--Germany Plays Key Role in Undermining ICC Case Against Israel

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
The Israeli government is trying everything in its power to derail an investigation by the International Criminal Court into Israeli war crimes against Palestinians .
Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu has even called the ICC anti-Semitic and has rallied allies to oppose any investigation .
Austria , the Czech Republic , Hungary , and , most surprisingly , Germany have all offered themselves as so-called “ friends of the court ” to the ICC to argue that it has no jurisdiction in the case against Israel @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , Germany ’ s Deputy Permanent Representative to the UN , spoke against Trump ’ s “ deal of the century ” for Middle East peace , but he also presented the German position on the ICC ’ s case against Israel .
Jürgen Schulz : Germany remains firmly committed to a negotiated two-state solution based on the 4th of June 1967 lines , with equivalent land swaps as may be agreed between the parties , with Jerusalem as future capital of both states , and with the state of Israel and an @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , and viable state of Palestine living side by side in peace , security , and mutual recognition .
We continue to believe that the two-state solution is the only viable solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that meets Israeli and Palestinian security needs .
Greg Wilpert : The investigation has not begun yet but is expected to be resubmitted to the ICC for approval very soon .
The proposed investigation focuses on Operation Protective Edge , Israel ’ s invasion of Gaza in the summer of 2014 , when it killed as many @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as 10,000 over a six-week period .
ICC chief prosecutor Fatou Bensouda submitted a petition for an investigation into Israeli war crimes last December , but was required to resubmit her petition when her 110-page document was rejected for being too long .
Joining me now to discuss Israel ’ s efforts to avoid ICC prosecution is Norman Finkelstein .
He is professor of political theory at the City University of New York .
His most recent book is I Accuse !
: Herewith A Proof Beyond A Reasonable Doubt That ICC Chief @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for joining us today , Norman .
Norman Finkelst… : Thank you for having me .
Greg Wilpert : We just heard earlier an example of one out of hundreds of German officials who insist that the two-state solution is still valid for Germany , but Germany does not recognize the state of Palestine and abstained in the UN General Assembly vote in November of 2012 on granting Palestine a representation in the United Nations , a vote that eventually passed without Germany ’ s support .
Now , the argument of Germany @ @ @ @ @ @ @ over the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip because Palestine is not a state , so it can not be a part of the Rome Statute that established the ICC .
Now , why then does Germany continue to pretend to support a two-state solution when in fact its actions actually say the opposite ?
Norman Finkelst… : Well , allow me two things .
First of all , allow me to set out the background , and then secondly , to address directly your question .
There have been now two what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ technical term for complaints .
Two referrals that have been filed with the ICC , the International Criminal Court , pertaining to the occupied Palestinian territories .
The first referral was filed not by the state of Palestine , but the state of the Comoros .
The Comoros was the state to which the flagship Mavi Marmara was registered .
Your listeners might recall that in May 2010 , Israel assaulted the humanitarian flotilla en route to Gaza to try to lift the blockade and provide humanitarian aid to the people of Gaza @ @ @ @ @ @ @ attack the entire flotilla and killed several passengers aboard the Mavi Marmara .
Now , simultaneously with that first referral from the state of the Comoros , there is a second referral from the state of Palestine .
And that complaint , the non-technical term , that referral , the technical term , it bears basically , not entirely , but it bears basically on two aspects of Israeli actions in the Occupied Palestinian Territories .
Number one , the settlements enterprise in the West Bank .
And number two , as you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ during July , August 2014 .
That case , too , as you can see , has been dragging on for a long time .
We ’ re way past Operation Protective Edge in 2014 .
That case , too , has been dragging on .
Now where do we stand ?
She says , in her opinion , there ’ s a legitimate case , there is sufficient gravity .
In her opinion , the ICC does have jurisdiction because Palestine is a state .
There are two caveats which lead me @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in good faith .
Caveat number one .
The presiding judge in the court that ’ s going to rule over jurisdiction , what ’ s called the Pre-Trial Chamber , the PTC , the Pre-Trial Chamber , the presiding judge is just this revolting , wretched lackey for Israel .
His name is Peter Kovacs .
He was actually a thousand times worse during the Mavi Marmara case than Fatou Bensouda .
He was in the Pre-trial Chamber in the Mavi Marmara case also , and he was awful .
There is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , there is none whatsoever that Peter Kovacs … There are three judges .
He ’ s the presiding judge .
That he will rule in favor of ICC jurisdiction .
That ’ s a done deal .
He ’ s not going to do it .
Number two , it has to be granted that this whole question of jurisdiction is muddled because Germany is going to argue that a Palestinian state remains still an aspiration , it ’ s not yet a reality .
And given it ’ s aspirational and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ no standing to bring a referral in the ICC .
And there has now been a pile-up by cowardly , craven states .
Australia , Germany , the Czech Republic , all of whom are trying to get into the good graces of the United States , who are piling up against the Palestinians at the ICC to block jurisdiction .
Now , what ’ s the bottom line ?
The bottom line is this .
Since 2006 , I ’ ll speak now of Gaza , the Palestinians in Gaza have been @ @ @ @ @ @ @ immoral , a medieval blockade siege targeting the civilian population .
It ’ s left Gaza in an utterly wretched state , one which is just barely , just barely at this point , livable .
The Palestinians have tried armed resistance , but on a kind of pitiful , with no offense intended , a pitiful level .
It didn ’ t succeed .
They then tried beginning two years ago , nonviolent mass resistance .
The Great March of Return began March 31st or March 30th , 2018 .
Israel just @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in a barrel .
They targeted nonviolent demonstrators who posed no threat whatsoever to these snipers .
The snipers sometimes shooting people five and 600 meters away , completely unarmed .
It was a massacre .
It was , in the classic term , a massacre , a daily massacre in Gaza .
The nonviolent resistance , it didn ’ t succeed for various reasons not worth going into now .
Greg Wilpert : And what does it leave us with in terms of what Palestinians can actually do now given the situation @ @ @ @ @ @ @ my point .
And now they made a recourse to the International Criminal Court , and now the International Criminal Court will almost certainly turn its back on the people of Gaza .
The fact of the matter is Germany , Federal Republic of Germany , has left the fate of the Palestinians in Gaza in the hands of what Bernie Sanders , our current presidential aspirant , says repeatedly .
He says the head of state in Israel is a “ reactionary racist.
” They ’ ve left the fate of the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ racist .
They have no rights whatsoever currently in the situation at hand .
They have no legal rights .
That ’ s the message at the Federal Republic of Germany is transmitting to the Palestinians .
You have no legal rights whatsoever .
You have no human rights .
The siege of Gaza is illegal under international law .
It ’ s a form of collective punishment .
You have no human rights under international law .
Your only option , your only recourse is to leave your fate in the hands @ @ @ @ @ @ @ would add , a certifiable war criminal insofar as he ’ s presiding over the criminal settlement enterprise in the West Bank and the murderous , criminal assault on Gaza during Operation Protective Edge in 2014 .
There is now one state between the Mediterranean and the Jordan , and in that state , the Palestinian population of the West Bank and Gaza , they are effectively slaves .
Israel is now a slave state .
Germany has consigned them to the fate of slaves devoid of any rights .
Greg Wilpert : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , I think I would like to get you to comment very briefly if you can , just on the irony that the ICC was created basically as an outgrowth of the Nuremberg trials following the Second World War when victorious Allied forces tried Nazi war criminals , but there was no institutionalized court to hold individuals accountable for their crimes until the ICC was founded .
Now , of course , what do you think of this irony now that Israel and Germany are on the same side on this issue of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ violation or a clear commission of work crimes ?
Norman Finkelst… : That ’ s one irony .
The other irony is the German government never ceases to proclaim every day it ’ s trying to learn and implement the lessons from World War II .
And as it beats its collective breast and pretends to be trying to learn the lessons of the Nazi Holocaust , it strips Palestinians , human beings , lest we forget , it strips Palestinians of any rights whatsoever and leaves their fate in the hands of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s pretty pitiful .
Greg Wilpert : Okay .
We ’ re going to leave it there for now .
I was speaking to Norman Finkelstein , professor of political theory at the City University of New York .
Thanks again , Norman , for having joined us today .
Norman Finkelst… : Thank you so much .
Greg Wilpert : And thank you for joining The Real News Network .

Professor Norman Finkelstein outlines the obstacles to holding Israel accountable for war crimes at the International Criminal Court. One of Israel’s main allies in undermining the effort is Germany.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Greg Wilpert: It’s The Real News Network. I’m Greg Wilpert in Baltimore.
The Israeli government is trying everything in its power to derail an investigation by the International Criminal Court into Israeli war crimes against Palestinians. Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu has even called the ICC anti-Semitic and has rallied allies to oppose any investigation. Austria, the Czech Republic, Hungary, and, most surprisingly, Germany have all offered themselves as so-called “friends of the court” to the ICC to argue that it has no jurisdiction in the case against Israel. On February 11, Jürgen Schulz, Germany’s Deputy Permanent Representative to the UN, spoke against Trump’s “deal of the century” for Middle East peace, but he also presented the German position on the ICC’s case against Israel.
Jürgen Schulz: Germany remains firmly committed to a negotiated two-state solution based on the 4th of June 1967 lines, with equivalent land swaps as may be agreed between the parties, with Jerusalem as future capital of both states, and with the state of Israel and an independent, democratic, contiguous, sovereign, and viable state of Palestine living side by side in peace, security, and mutual recognition. We continue to believe that the two-state solution is the only viable solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that meets Israeli and Palestinian security needs.
Greg Wilpert: The investigation has not begun yet but is expected to be resubmitted to the ICC for approval very soon. The proposed investigation focuses on Operation Protective Edge, Israel’s invasion of Gaza in the summer of 2014, when it killed as many as 2,300 Palestinians and wounded as many as 10,000 over a six-week period. ICC chief prosecutor Fatou Bensouda submitted a petition for an investigation into Israeli war crimes last December, but was required to resubmit her petition when her 110-page document was rejected for being too long.
Joining me now to discuss Israel’s efforts to avoid ICC prosecution is Norman Finkelstein. He is professor of political theory at the City University of New York. His most recent book is I Accuse!: Herewith A Proof Beyond A Reasonable Doubt That ICC Chief Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda Whitewashed Israel. Thanks for joining us today, Norman.
Norman Finkelst…: Thank you for having me.
Greg Wilpert: We just heard earlier an example of one out of hundreds of German officials who insist that the two-state solution is still valid for Germany, but Germany does not recognize the state of Palestine and abstained in the UN General Assembly vote in November of 2012 on granting Palestine a representation in the United Nations, a vote that eventually passed without Germany’s support.
Now, the argument of Germany is that the ICC has no jurisdiction over the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip because Palestine is not a state, so it cannot be a part of the Rome Statute that established the ICC. Now, why then does Germany continue to pretend to support a two-state solution when in fact its actions actually say the opposite?
Norman Finkelst…: Well, allow me two things. First of all, allow me to set out the background, and then secondly, to address directly your question.
There have been now two what are called “referrals,” the technical term for complaints. Two referrals that have been filed with the ICC, the International Criminal Court, pertaining to the occupied Palestinian territories. The first referral was filed not by the state of Palestine, but the state of the Comoros. The Comoros was the state to which the flagship Mavi Marmara was registered. Your listeners might recall that in May 2010, Israel assaulted the humanitarian flotilla en route to Gaza to try to lift the blockade and provide humanitarian aid to the people of Gaza. Israel attacked the Mavi Marmara or attack the entire flotilla and killed several passengers aboard the Mavi Marmara.
Now, simultaneously with that first referral from the state of the Comoros, there is a second referral from the state of Palestine. And that complaint, the non-technical term, that referral, the technical term, it bears basically, not entirely, but it bears basically on two aspects of Israeli actions in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Number one, the settlements enterprise in the West Bank. And number two, as you mentioned, the Israeli attack on Gaza during July, August 2014. That case, too, as you can see, has been dragging on for a long time. We’re way past Operation Protective Edge in 2014. That case, too, has been dragging on.
Now where do we stand? She says, in her opinion, there’s a legitimate case, there is sufficient gravity. In her opinion, the ICC does have jurisdiction because Palestine is a state. There are two caveats which lead me to believe she wasn’t acting in good faith.
Caveat number one. The presiding judge in the court that’s going to rule over jurisdiction, what’s called the Pre-Trial Chamber, the PTC, the Pre-Trial Chamber, the presiding judge is just this revolting, wretched lackey for Israel. His name is Peter Kovacs. He was actually a thousand times worse during the Mavi Marmara case than Fatou Bensouda. He was in the Pre-trial Chamber in the Mavi Marmara case also, and he was awful. There is no possibility on God’s earth, there is none whatsoever that Peter Kovacs … There are three judges. He’s the presiding judge. That he will rule in favor of ICC jurisdiction. That’s a done deal. He’s not going to do it.
Number two, it has to be granted that this whole question of jurisdiction is muddled because Germany is going to argue that a Palestinian state remains still an aspiration, it’s not yet a reality. And given it’s aspirational and not an actuality, then it has no standing to bring a referral in the ICC.
And there has now been a pile-up by cowardly, craven states. Australia, Germany, the Czech Republic, all of whom are trying to get into the good graces of the United States, who are piling up against the Palestinians at the ICC to block jurisdiction.
Now, what’s the bottom line? The bottom line is this. Since 2006, I’ll speak now of Gaza, the Palestinians in Gaza have been living under an inhuman and illegal and immoral, a medieval blockade siege targeting the civilian population. It’s left Gaza in an utterly wretched state, one which is just barely, just barely at this point, livable.
The Palestinians have tried armed resistance, but on a kind of pitiful, with no offense intended, a pitiful level. It didn’t succeed. They then tried beginning two years ago, nonviolent mass resistance. The Great March of Return began March 31st or March 30th, 2018. Israel just picked off these Palestinian demonstrators like fish in a barrel. They targeted nonviolent demonstrators who posed no threat whatsoever to these snipers. The snipers sometimes shooting people five and 600 meters away, completely unarmed. It was a massacre. It was, in the classic term, a massacre, a daily massacre in Gaza.
The nonviolent resistance, it didn’t succeed for various reasons not worth going into now.
Greg Wilpert: And what does it leave us with in terms of what Palestinians can actually do now given the situation?
Norman Finkelst…: That’s my point. And now they made a recourse to the International Criminal Court, and now the International Criminal Court will almost certainly turn its back on the people of Gaza. The fact of the matter is Germany, Federal Republic of Germany, has left the fate of the Palestinians in Gaza in the hands of what Bernie Sanders, our current presidential aspirant, says repeatedly. He says the head of state in Israel is a “reactionary racist.” They’ve left the fate of the Palestinians in the hands of a reactionary racist. They have no rights whatsoever currently in the situation at hand. They have no legal rights.
That’s the message at the Federal Republic of Germany is transmitting to the Palestinians. You have no legal rights whatsoever. You have no human rights. The siege of Gaza is illegal under international law. It’s a form of collective punishment. You have no human rights under international law. Your only option, your only recourse is to leave your fate in the hands of a reactionary racist and, I would add, a certifiable war criminal insofar as he’s presiding over the criminal settlement enterprise in the West Bank and the murderous, criminal assault on Gaza during Operation Protective Edge in 2014.
There is now one state between the Mediterranean and the Jordan, and in that state, the Palestinian population of the West Bank and Gaza, they are effectively slaves. Israel is now a slave state. Germany has consigned them to the fate of slaves devoid of any rights.
Greg Wilpert: Just one last point. I mean, I think I would like to get you to comment very briefly if you can, just on the irony that the ICC was created basically as an outgrowth of the Nuremberg trials following the Second World War when victorious Allied forces tried Nazi war criminals, but there was no institutionalized court to hold individuals accountable for their crimes until the ICC was founded. Now, of course, what do you think of this irony now that Israel and Germany are on the same side on this issue of basically denying ICC effectiveness in a clear violation or a clear commission of work crimes?
Norman Finkelst…: That’s one irony. The other irony is the German government never ceases to proclaim every day it’s trying to learn and implement the lessons from World War II. And as it beats its collective breast and pretends to be trying to learn the lessons of the Nazi Holocaust, it strips Palestinians, human beings, lest we forget, it strips Palestinians of any rights whatsoever and leaves their fate in the hands of a reactionary racist war criminal. That’s pretty pitiful.
Greg Wilpert: Okay. We’re going to leave it there for now. I was speaking to Norman Finkelstein, professor of political theory at the City University of New York. Thanks again, Norman, for having joined us today.
Norman Finkelst…: Thank you so much.
Greg Wilpert: And thank you for joining The Real News Network.
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therealnews--2020-03-05--Progressives vs. Establishment: Super Tuesday Narrows Democratic Field

This is a rush transcript and my contain errors .
It will be updated .
Marc Steiner : Welcome to The Real News .
I ’ m Marc Steiner .
Great to have you all with us .
Super Tuesday has left us with a lot of questions .
More questions than answers .
It was clearly a banner day for the establishment and for Biden .
Yes , mainstream media columnists and corporate political power brokers went after Sanders with everything they had to defame him , especially his ideas , and to defend their corporate interests .
But @ @ @ @ @ @ @ most Democrats in this primary have voted for the moderate candidates , and not ones that are supposed progressive agendas like Sanders and Warren .
So what does that mean for our political future for this election , for defeating the white nationalists and neo-conservative domination of the federal government ?
Where does the Sanders campaign go from here ?
What does the demographic analysis tell us about Super Tuesday ’ s results ?
We are joined by Real News correspondent , Jaisal Noor , who has been covering this race for us @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Virginia .
In this regard , Jaisal , good to have you with us .
Jaisal Noor : Thanks for having me .
Marc Steiner : And Marcus Ferrell joins us once again .
He is the former African-American outreach director and Southeast campaign director for Bernie ’ s 2016 campaign , former deputy campaign manager for Stacey Abrams , former chief-of-staff for the New Georgia Project , and currently a political consultant .
And now , becoming a regular here on The Real News .
Good to see you , Marcus .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ : Thanks for having me back , my friend .
Marc Steiner : Let ’ s just start with this larger question of what you walked away with from last night .
I mean , when you see where this goes and the surprising surge for many that happened in the last four or five days for Biden .
Let me just start with you Marcus .
Give us your analysis , and we ’ ll turn it over to Jaisal .
Marcus Ferrell : Listen , the last 48 hours has been @ @ @ @ @ @ @ campaign .
And you have to whatever political hand , if there is a political hand , that has pushed the endorsements of Pete and Amy , first gives a testament to the campaigns that Pete Buttigieg ran and Amy Klobuchar ran .
And I mean , you could always expect that if they were going to drop out the race , they will be supporting Senator Biden… I mean , Vice President Biden , no matter what .
So endorsements are important .
Joe Biden got Jim Clyburn two presidential campaigns to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ within a short period of time .
And folks say endorsements don ’ t matter , but they do .
So the takeaway from this is… Of course , you ’ re going to see a surge from the establishment candidate .
They put every single bit of energy that they possibly had into making sure Biden crossed the finish line .
And as of a couple of minutes ago , Bloomberg dropped out the race and said he ’ s endorsing Biden also .
That ’ s $ 600 million worth of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ campaign .
So if you ’ ve got that kind of money , that kind of other campaigns… I ’ m not going to sit here and push the conspiracy theory , but I will say it was a good play for the Biden campaign .
What does that mean for Bernie ?
Well that means Bernie ’ s going to have to hunker down .
Nobody is going to give you a democratic socialist anything .
A democratic socialist and the Democratic Party is going to have to take it .
And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have to go out of their way to make sure that they fight hard for every single vote from now on and don ’ t have the expectation that just because we believe we ’ re right , which we do believe we right , that that translated into a normal average American voter… especially African-American voters wanting to go with that .
You have to tell your message to African-American voters in the language that they understand .
What does Medicare for all mean for black folks ?
What does free college @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you have to sit in these communities for a longer period of time than I think that the Sanders campaign did .
So we are in interests .
We are in for interesting times .
Yes , there will still be a broker convention .
It ’ s just going to be a little bit tougher for Bernie to come out of that thing , I believe .
And that ’ s an unfortunate predicament .
Marc Steiner : Jaisal , you want to jump in here ?
On your way in , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ know about Bloomberg .
And Warren has not had a Twitter feed going in the last 12 hours , which means I think she ’ s wrestling with , and being talked to about dropping out , would be my guess .
Jaisal Noor : Yeah , it was reported that Warren is meeting with her team and trying to discuss the path forward .
Obviously , she knows she ’ s in a big hole as far as delegates , as far as the delegate count goes .
But she said recently @ @ @ @ @ @ @ campaign into the convention .
There is a piece in The Intercept by a Ryan Grim , co-authored by Rachel Cohen , where they interviewed members of the Working Families Party , a progressive group that ’ s back to Warren .
They are saying that Warren ’ s going to stay in to the convention , to ensure the most progressive candidate can secure the nomination .
Warren of course , launched her political career taking on Biden with the Bankruptcy Bill .
To add to the takeaways , I think as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ really struck back .
According to exit polls , a lot of the voters , the undecided voters that decided late , they overwhelmingly went for Joe Biden .
We saw him win Minnesota , which was… Amy Klobuchar was in a close race with Bernie Sanders .
We saw Biden win Texas , the second biggest prize .
That was a state that some polls showed Bernie Sanders up .
So obviously , Biden was really benefiting from the momentum created by his South Carolina win .
And just the way the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ South Carolina , and of course the endorsements he picked up .
He had Beto O ’ Rourke , a former candidate , who won a close… He lost a close race to Ted Cruz .
He backed him up , and he was stumping for him in Texas .
So there ’ s that .
But also looking forward , we have… This is really shaping up to be a two-part , a two-candidate race .
If you look at some of the ads that Bernie Sanders released today , Biden really @ @ @ @ @ @ @ front-runner for a few weeks or even months now .
If you look at the ads that Bernie just released , it looks like he ’ s really taking off the gloves against Joe Biden .
He ’ s running these ads in some of the states that are voting next week , which you ’ re going to be key states .
You remember , less than half of the voters have voted in the primary .
So more than half the delegates are up for grabs .
He ’ s going @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Security .
He ’ s going after a Biden ’ s record on trade deals .
And now that you have Bernie Sanders taking on Joe Biden , which he hasn ’ t really attacked that much .
Obviously , he calls him out on his vote on the Iraq War , something he pointed out last night in his speech .
I think Bernie ’ s path forward really will be dependent on him taking the gloves off and really hitting Joe Biden .
The media is going to have to focus @ @ @ @ @ @ @ had to recently apologize for saying that he was arrested with the black democratic… the delegation of South Africa .
Last night , he confused his wife with his sister on stage .
There ’ s been a bunch of gaps where it seems like he can ’ t keep his thoughts together when he ’ s speaking in front of audiences .
There ’ s a lot of stuff that I think has voters worried that Biden could be weak if he is the nominee against Trump .
Marcus Ferrell : Can @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that ?
Marc Steiner : Very quickly , because I want to show something to… Go ahead , go ahead .
Go ahead .
Marcus Ferrell : With the hit pieces , the one thing that Donald Trump is going to do to Joe Biden , is the same thing that Bernie Sanders should be thinking about doing to Joe Biden in the next couple of weeks .
He probably should have done it earlier than this .
There ’ s a big looming crime bill that Joe hasn ’ t answered for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ put out there .
African-American voters will see it .
Latinx voters will see it .
And it ’ s going to be a good way for Bernie to slide in and get one more potent hit about the realities of what Joe Biden has helped create when it comes down to the criminal justice system in this country .
So I wanted to point that out , because that ’ s something that hasn ’ t been utilized , and Donald Trump will use it .
Marc Steiner : Let ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ what you both just raised .
What you raised , Jaisal , here .
This is what happened last night , Bernie Sanders speaking .
Let ’ s watch this first , then we ’ re going to watch Biden .
Bernie Sanders : One of us in this race led the opposition to the War in Iraq .
You ’ re looking at him .
Another candidate voted for the War in Iraq .
One of us has spent his entire life fighting against cuts in Social Security , exploiting to expand @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on the floor of the Senate calling for cuts to Social Security , Medicare , Medicaid , and veterans ’ programs .
One of us led the opposition to disastrous trade agreements , which cost us millions of good paying jobs , and that ’ s me .
And another candidate voted for disastrous trade agreements .
Marc Steiner : So that ’ s the battling Bernie that our guests just talked about .
Now let ’ s watch Biden .
Joe Biden : I ’ m here to report , we are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ when it got to Super Tuesday , it would be over .
Well , it may be over for the other guy .
People are talking about a revolution .
We started a movement , we ’ ve increased turnout .
Our campaign reflects the diversity of this party and this nation .
And that ’ s how it should be , because we need to bring everybody along , everybody .
We want a nominee who will beat Donald Trump .
But also keep Nancy Pelosi , the Speaker of the House @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
If that ’ s what you want , join us .
Marc Steiner : Okay , so there we have it .
I mean , I think this is kind of setting up what both Marcus and Jaisal , you were just talking about in terms of what ’ s to come .
But let ’ s look at what happened last night , and where Bernie lost and why , and where Biden won and why .
People are talking a lot about the black and Latino votes obviously , in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Primary , Mexican-American , Puerto Rican votes especially , mean a great deal .
I mean , you can take this Latino vote and make it a giant Latino vote .
That ’ s a lot of different kinds of folks in that vote .
But you look at those two demographics or several demographics , and you can see that we have this mythology , Marcus… About this monolithic black vote , or a monolithic Mexican-American vote , or a monolithic Puerto Rican vote .
And the demographics don ’ t show @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
And it ’ s different depending on class and race and state .
So it ’ s not as simple as just to say the black vote or the Latino vote , and where it ’ s going .
I think there ’ s a lot inside of there that we miss , trying to do this broad stroke .
Agree or disagree ?
Marcus Ferrell : I agree to a certain extent .
If you think about the African-American vote , if you think about younger black voters , younger black @ @ @ @ @ @ @ little bit more than older black voters who definitely swing over to Joe Biden .
Listen , I take away this right here .
You need to have a bold agenda for African-Americans , or you need to have a very long relationship with African-Americans .
I think some places where the Senator might have messed up is , is not being a champion of some of the things that African-Americans were intrigued to see .
Like possibly , reparations .
Right ?
Possibly explaining what Medicare for all actually means for black @ @ @ @ @ @ @ South Carolina and Southern states with the message of , this is Medicare for all .
And meanwhile , I ’ m pushing Medicare for all .
And this is what it means when Joe Biden wants to take away your Social Security .
And explaining that in a language that African-Americans would understand .
And that language is simple .
It ’ s time , and it ’ s building the trust up .
I don ’ t think he completely ignored the African-American community , but when I think about the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ need to spend in the Southeast , it ’ s more than just the election period .
Bernie probably should have stayed in the South from 2016 to 2020 to do that .
Latinx voters are the same exact way .
I mean , you have some Latinx factions that consider themselves black , if you look at Puerto Ricans and Dominicans .
Marcus Ferrell : Some of those folks vote the same exact way the black folks vote , because they identify as black first , then Puerto Ricans .
So there @ @ @ @ @ @ @ same between any culture .
The only thing is , you need to build up time and trust .
Because black folks are the most hurt people in the history of America , and no longer trust any word that anybody just says .
So instead of bringing up anything new , we will go with familiarity and we ’ ll go with something that we believe can trust and that is safe .
And in this case and in Super Tuesday ’ s results , that person happened to be Joe Biden @ @ @ @ @ @ @ look at the California results , Jaisal , it was interesting that the Latino vote in California and the Asian-American vote in California , which they actually analyzed , went for Sanders .
What ’ s your analysis of all that ?
Jaisal Noor : Well , I think Sanders has been an outspoken critic .
If you talk to his supporters in the Latino community , he was endorsed by a lot of Latino groups .
He ’ s been an outspoken critic of deportations in the recent years .
Joe Biden @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as the vice president to President Obama , which gives him a huge advantage there .
But it was Obama ’ s administration that Latinos will not forget , that deported some two to three million people during his tenure .
That memory is still fresh .
A lot of the infrastructure that Trump is using in this truly horrific way was created under president Obama .
So you have that .
And also , at least according to recent polls , and I haven ’ t seen any in the last few @ @ @ @ @ @ @ still up nationally among black voters .
So I think a lot… But Biden ’ s vote in the Crime Bill was raised .
Bernie Sanders also voted for that bill .
I think it ’ s going to be a struggle .
I think for black… I ’ m not going to speak for black voters .
But I think for black voters , there ’ s a good piece in the nation actually , which pointed out that black voters are voting for the safe choice because they are facing a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ out-and-out racist , a white nationalist .
So they have to protect their interests .
They ’ ve been let down by politicians for so many years .
The piece the nation pointed out that they ’ re not… black voters are not convinced that white voters will support this progressive agenda , which is going to be about redistributing wealth from wealthy people , which are disproportionately white , to people that are less well off .
And I think the fact that Bernie Sanders hasn ’ t become a champion of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
So let me close with this larger question , where both of you think this is going from here , and what chance does Bernie Sanders really have at this point to win the nomination ?
If you have a mostly established candidates gathering around Biden , if this momentum keeps up .
And then what could happen if Biden becomes a nominee ?
What happens to all the folks who backed Bernie ?
Are they going to back away and not vote again , and Trump wins ?
And the other @ @ @ @ @ @ @ get a lot of moderates saying , “ I can ’ t vote for Bernie.
” So there ’ s going to be a pitch-battle between now and November between these two men .
Probably more than even Warren , unless something drastic happens for her .
So where do you both think this goes ?
And again , we ’ ll do the same order here .
But I mean , Mark , let me start with you .
We ’ ll close out with Jaisal .
Marcus , I mean , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ ve been inside of politics , Jaisal ’ s been covering this stuff .
Let ’ s get your analysis .
Marcus , go ahead .
Marcus Ferrell : Okay .
I think Bernie has an extremely good chance of still winning the nomination .
And that ’ s because eventually if it ’ s a message of Bernie versus Biden and there ’ s nobody else , then we have an opportunity… Bernie has an opportunity to clearly identify what his message is and show the rest of America that his @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in is stronger , and what he ’ s trying to do is unify the country and actually give the country an option besides the same-old , same-old .
If he can manage to do that in a clear room where there ’ s no other candidates , meaning , if Elizabeth Warren does decide to jump out .
Because if Elizabeth Warren stays in until the convention , I see the road being a very tough road to go ahead .
Also , the main thing is , if you want to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ supporters , then the DNC better do a damn good job with making sure that that convention up in Milwaukee is clean , fair , and the media narrative is not Bernie got screwed .
Because if that happens , then you ’ re going to see a low turnout no matter what kind of gas lighting , no matter what kind of pressuring the establishment is going to do on more progressive voters at that time .
So it depends on what happens at the DNC convention , to be quite honest @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ugly , if it ’ s nasty , if they ’ re keeping people like Nina Turner off the stage again , they ’ re keeping people with more progressive voices off the stage again… then you ’ re going to see a very disappointed group of voters that can literally give you the nomination .
Also , lastly of course , turn out .
Talking to the Latino voters , talking to African-American voters in the general election .
If they ’ re not able to do that and they can ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , they ’ re in trouble .
Marc Steiner : Not just… Everybody is in trouble .
This country ’ s in deep trouble if that happens .
And you see Obama ’ s hands already on the scale .
He ’ s talked to Buttigieg and Bloomberg , talking to Klobuchar , and they all made this decision about who they were going to back .
Jaisal , your thoughts .
Jaisal Noor : So if you listen to Bernie Sanders , his campaign message , his path to victory , he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ multiracial coalition bringing out people that don ’ t normally vote .
His problem has been , is that turnout and increasing turnout .
His problem has been so far , that hasn ’ t happened .
We have a lot more clarity now , now with the field consolidated .
We have another debate March 15th .
There might be only two or three candidates on that stage if Elizabeth Warren drops out .
She hasn ’ t indicated she ’ s going to do so yet .
But again , if @ @ @ @ @ @ @ talk about Biden ’ s record around healthcare , around Social Security , Medicaid , Medicare , he ’ s running those ads where Biden is bragging in his own words that he promised to cut those things… the race is really going to shape out .
I ’ d agree with the assessment that the DNC needs to end .
Even Elizabeth Warren in 2016 , Donna Brazil in 2016 , said that the DNC had their finger on the scale .
And so that ’ s right , they ’ re @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to make this a clean and transparent process .
And if no candidate gets that 1,991 delegates , there ’ s going to have to be compromises on both sides .
The thing that we haven ’ t talked about yet , which is definitely worth mentioning as far as a potential victory in November , is going to be voter suppression .
We saw those long lines in Texas , people waiting seven or eight hours in line .
Not everyone has that ability to stay in line for those hours .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ states have passed restrictive voting laws .
Even in places in many states where they have Republicans in control , make it harder to vote .
Especially for older voters , African-American voters .
I think ultimately , it ’ s going to come down to that .
And of course , we know that the selection is going to be decided by the electoral college .
So we ’ re going to see if the Democrats make the same mistake in not campaigning hard enough in those states where Trump pulled out @ @ @ @ @ @ @ like Ohio , Michigan .
Are they going to put forth a nominee that can really win those states , win over those working-class voters , increase turnout .
I think it ’ s going to come down to that .
Marc Steiner : Well Jaisal Noor , great to have you on as a guest .
Our correspondent here for The Real News , has been covering this election .
And Marcus Ferrell , political consultant and a former both Sanders ’ and Abrams ’ campaign director .
Good to have you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ thank you so much .
Marc Steiner : And I ’ m Marc Steiner here for The Real News Network .
Please let us know what you think .
Go to our website , send us a note .
How you think this coverage is going , where you think we should be going .
We want to hear from you .
Take care .

The Biden/Sanders battle for the Democratic nomination is on. Where did Joe Biden’s unexpected Super Tuesday win come from? Do voters think uniting around the establishment candidate is the best way to defeat Trump?
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and my contain errors. It will be updated.
Marc Steiner: Welcome to The Real News. I’m Marc Steiner. Great to have you all with us. Super Tuesday has left us with a lot of questions. More questions than answers. It was clearly a banner day for the establishment and for Biden. Yes, mainstream media columnists and corporate political power brokers went after Sanders with everything they had to defame him, especially his ideas, and to defend their corporate interests. But there’s also a reality that most Democrats in this primary have voted for the moderate candidates, and not ones that are supposed progressive agendas like Sanders and Warren.
So what does that mean for our political future for this election, for defeating the white nationalists and neo-conservative domination of the federal government? Where does the Sanders campaign go from here? What does the demographic analysis tell us about Super Tuesday’s results?
We are joined by Real News correspondent, Jaisal Noor, who has been covering this race for us in New Hampshire, Iowa, and Virginia. In this regard, Jaisal, good to have you with us.
Jaisal Noor: Thanks for having me.
Marc Steiner: And Marcus Ferrell joins us once again. He is the former African-American outreach director and Southeast campaign director for Bernie’s 2016 campaign, former deputy campaign manager for Stacey Abrams, former chief-of-staff for the New Georgia Project, and currently a political consultant. And now, becoming a regular here on The Real News. Good to see you, Marcus. Welcome. Welcome back.
Marcus Ferrell: Thanks for having me back, my friend.
Marc Steiner: Let’s just start with this larger question of what you walked away with from last night. I mean, when you see where this goes and the surprising surge for many that happened in the last four or five days for Biden. Let me just start with you Marcus. Give us your analysis, and we’ll turn it over to Jaisal.
Marcus Ferrell: Listen, the last 48 hours has been a complete positive whirlwind for the Biden campaign. And you have to whatever political hand, if there is a political hand, that has pushed the endorsements of Pete and Amy, first gives a testament to the campaigns that Pete Buttigieg ran and Amy Klobuchar ran. And I mean, you could always expect that if they were going to drop out the race, they will be supporting Senator Biden… I mean, Vice President Biden, no matter what. So endorsements are important. Joe Biden got Jim Clyburn two presidential campaigns to endorse him in all the key places within a short period of time. And folks say endorsements don’t matter, but they do.
So the takeaway from this is… Of course, you’re going to see a surge from the establishment candidate. They put every single bit of energy that they possibly had into making sure Biden crossed the finish line. And as of a couple of minutes ago, Bloomberg dropped out the race and said he’s endorsing Biden also. That’s $600 million worth of ad buys basically going into the Biden campaign. So if you’ve got that kind of money, that kind of other campaigns… I’m not going to sit here and push the conspiracy theory, but I will say it was a good play for the Biden campaign.
What does that mean for Bernie? Well that means Bernie’s going to have to hunker down. Nobody is going to give you a democratic socialist anything. A democratic socialist and the Democratic Party is going to have to take it. And him and his supporters are going to have to go out of their way to make sure that they fight hard for every single vote from now on and don’t have the expectation that just because we believe we’re right, which we do believe we right, that that translated into a normal average American voter… especially African-American voters wanting to go with that.
You have to tell your message to African-American voters in the language that they understand. What does Medicare for all mean for black folks? What does free college mean for black folks? And then you have to sit in these communities for a longer period of time than I think that the Sanders campaign did. So we are in interests. We are in for interesting times. Yes, there will still be a broker convention. It’s just going to be a little bit tougher for Bernie to come out of that thing, I believe. And that’s an unfortunate predicament.
Marc Steiner: Jaisal, you want to jump in here? On your way in, let me just also announce that we know about Bloomberg. And Warren has not had a Twitter feed going in the last 12 hours, which means I think she’s wrestling with, and being talked to about dropping out, would be my guess.
Jaisal Noor: Yeah, it was reported that Warren is meeting with her team and trying to discuss the path forward. Obviously, she knows she’s in a big hole as far as delegates, as far as the delegate count goes. But she said recently that she is going to continue her campaign into the convention. There is a piece in The Intercept by a Ryan Grim, co-authored by Rachel Cohen, where they interviewed members of the Working Families Party, a progressive group that’s back to Warren. They are saying that Warren’s going to stay in to the convention, to ensure the most progressive candidate can secure the nomination. Warren of course, launched her political career taking on Biden with the Bankruptcy Bill.
To add to the takeaways, I think as it has been said, the establishment really struck back. According to exit polls, a lot of the voters, the undecided voters that decided late, they overwhelmingly went for Joe Biden. We saw him win Minnesota, which was… Amy Klobuchar was in a close race with Bernie Sanders. We saw Biden win Texas, the second biggest prize. That was a state that some polls showed Bernie Sanders up. So obviously, Biden was really benefiting from the momentum created by his South Carolina win. And just the way the media really shifted the whole narrative after South Carolina, and of course the endorsements he picked up. He had Beto O’Rourke, a former candidate, who won a close… He lost a close race to Ted Cruz. He backed him up, and he was stumping for him in Texas. So there’s that.
But also looking forward, we have… This is really shaping up to be a two-part, a two-candidate race. If you look at some of the ads that Bernie Sanders released today, Biden really hasn’t been a top… a front-runner for a few weeks or even months now. If you look at the ads that Bernie just released, it looks like he’s really taking off the gloves against Joe Biden. He’s running these ads in some of the states that are voting next week, which you’re going to be key states. You remember, less than half of the voters have voted in the primary. So more than half the delegates are up for grabs. He’s going after Biden’s record on Social Security. He’s going after a Biden’s record on trade deals.
And now that you have Bernie Sanders taking on Joe Biden, which he hasn’t really attacked that much. Obviously, he calls him out on his vote on the Iraq War, something he pointed out last night in his speech. I think Bernie’s path forward really will be dependent on him taking the gloves off and really hitting Joe Biden. The media is going to have to focus more on Joe Biden too. He had to recently apologize for saying that he was arrested with the black democratic… the delegation of South Africa. Last night, he confused his wife with his sister on stage. There’s been a bunch of gaps where it seems like he can’t keep his thoughts together when he’s speaking in front of audiences. There’s a lot of stuff that I think has voters worried that Biden could be weak if he is the nominee against Trump.
Marcus Ferrell: Can I bring up something on top of that?
Marc Steiner: Very quickly, because I want to show something to… Go ahead, go ahead. Go ahead.
Marcus Ferrell: With the hit pieces, the one thing that Donald Trump is going to do to Joe Biden, is the same thing that Bernie Sanders should be thinking about doing to Joe Biden in the next couple of weeks. He probably should have done it earlier than this. There’s a big looming crime bill that Joe hasn’t answered for. And that hasn’t been put out there. African-American voters will see it. Latinx voters will see it. And it’s going to be a good way for Bernie to slide in and get one more potent hit about the realities of what Joe Biden has helped create when it comes down to the criminal justice system in this country. So I wanted to point that out, because that’s something that hasn’t been utilized, and Donald Trump will use it.
Marc Steiner: Let’s play this short clip here, because what you both just raised. What you raised, Jaisal, here. This is what happened last night, Bernie Sanders speaking. Let’s watch this first, then we’re going to watch Biden.
Bernie Sanders: One of us in this race led the opposition to the War in Iraq. You’re looking at him. Another candidate voted for the War in Iraq. One of us has spent his entire life fighting against cuts in Social Security, exploiting to expand Social Security. Another candidate has been on the floor of the Senate calling for cuts to Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and veterans’ programs. One of us led the opposition to disastrous trade agreements, which cost us millions of good paying jobs, and that’s me. And another candidate voted for disastrous trade agreements.
Marc Steiner: So that’s the battling Bernie that our guests just talked about. Now let’s watch Biden.
Joe Biden: I’m here to report, we are very much alive. And were told when it got to Super Tuesday, it would be over. Well, it may be over for the other guy. People are talking about a revolution. We started a movement, we’ve increased turnout. Our campaign reflects the diversity of this party and this nation. And that’s how it should be, because we need to bring everybody along, everybody. We want a nominee who will beat Donald Trump. But also keep Nancy Pelosi, the Speaker of the House, win back the United States Senate. If that’s what you want, join us.
Marc Steiner: Okay, so there we have it. I mean, I think this is kind of setting up what both Marcus and Jaisal, you were just talking about in terms of what’s to come. But let’s look at what happened last night, and where Bernie lost and why, and where Biden won and why. People are talking a lot about the black and Latino votes obviously, in this race, because in the Democratic Primary, Mexican-American, Puerto Rican votes especially, mean a great deal. I mean, you can take this Latino vote and make it a giant Latino vote. That’s a lot of different kinds of folks in that vote.
But you look at those two demographics or several demographics, and you can see that we have this mythology, Marcus… About this monolithic black vote, or a monolithic Mexican-American vote, or a monolithic Puerto Rican vote. And the demographics don’t show that. They show a real divide. And it’s different depending on class and race and state. So it’s not as simple as just to say the black vote or the Latino vote, and where it’s going. I think there’s a lot inside of there that we miss, trying to do this broad stroke. Agree or disagree?
Marcus Ferrell: I agree to a certain extent. If you think about the African-American vote, if you think about younger black voters, younger black voters are going to be split a little bit more than older black voters who definitely swing over to Joe Biden. Listen, I take away this right here. You need to have a bold agenda for African-Americans, or you need to have a very long relationship with African-Americans. I think some places where the Senator might have messed up is, is not being a champion of some of the things that African-Americans were intrigued to see. Like possibly, reparations. Right? Possibly explaining what Medicare for all actually means for black voters, and sitting and sticking in South Carolina and Southern states with the message of, this is Medicare for all.
And meanwhile, I’m pushing Medicare for all. And this is what it means when Joe Biden wants to take away your Social Security. And explaining that in a language that African-Americans would understand. And that language is simple. It’s time, and it’s building the trust up. I don’t think he completely ignored the African-American community, but when I think about the amount of resources and time that you need to spend in the Southeast, it’s more than just the election period. Bernie probably should have stayed in the South from 2016 to 2020 to do that. Latinx voters are the same exact way. I mean, you have some Latinx factions that consider themselves black, if you look at Puerto Ricans and Dominicans.
Marc Steiner: Right.
Marcus Ferrell: Some of those folks vote the same exact way the black folks vote, because they identify as black first, then Puerto Ricans. So there’s no dynamic that is the same between any culture. The only thing is, you need to build up time and trust. Because black folks are the most hurt people in the history of America, and no longer trust any word that anybody just says. So instead of bringing up anything new, we will go with familiarity and we’ll go with something that we believe can trust and that is safe. And in this case and in Super Tuesday’s results, that person happened to be Joe Biden.
Marc Steiner: And if you look at the California results, Jaisal, it was interesting that the Latino vote in California and the Asian-American vote in California, which they actually analyzed, went for Sanders. What’s your analysis of all that?
Jaisal Noor: Well, I think Sanders has been an outspoken critic. If you talk to his supporters in the Latino community, he was endorsed by a lot of Latino groups. He’s been an outspoken critic of deportations in the recent years. Joe Biden, obviously he’s positioning himself as the vice president to President Obama, which gives him a huge advantage there. But it was Obama’s administration that Latinos will not forget, that deported some two to three million people during his tenure. That memory is still fresh.
A lot of the infrastructure that Trump is using in this truly horrific way was created under president Obama. So you have that. And also, at least according to recent polls, and I haven’t seen any in the last few days… But recently, Bernie Sanders was still up nationally among black voters. So I think a lot… But Biden’s vote in the Crime Bill was raised. Bernie Sanders also voted for that bill. I think it’s going to be a struggle. I think for black… I’m not going to speak for black voters. But I think for black voters, there’s a good piece in the nation actually, which pointed out that black voters are voting for the safe choice because they are facing a President Trump, who is just an out-and-out racist, a white nationalist. So they have to protect their interests. They’ve been let down by politicians for so many years.
The piece the nation pointed out that they’re not… black voters are not convinced that white voters will support this progressive agenda, which is going to be about redistributing wealth from wealthy people, which are disproportionately white, to people that are less well off. And I think the fact that Bernie Sanders hasn’t become a champion of reparations is also hurting him as well.
So let me close with this larger question, where both of you think this is going from here, and what chance does Bernie Sanders really have at this point to win the nomination? If you have a mostly established candidates gathering around Biden, if this momentum keeps up. And then what could happen if Biden becomes a nominee? What happens to all the folks who backed Bernie? Are they going to back away and not vote again, and Trump wins? And the other side is true as well. We get a lot of moderates saying, “I can’t vote for Bernie.” So there’s going to be a pitch-battle between now and November between these two men. Probably more than even Warren, unless something drastic happens for her.
So where do you both think this goes? And again, we’ll do the same order here. But I mean, Mark, let me start with you. We’ll close out with Jaisal. Marcus, I mean, you worked the Bernie campaign. You’ve been inside of politics, Jaisal’s been covering this stuff. Let’s get your analysis. Marcus, go ahead.
Marcus Ferrell: Okay. I think Bernie has an extremely good chance of still winning the nomination. And that’s because eventually if it’s a message of Bernie versus Biden and there’s nobody else, then we have an opportunity… Bernie has an opportunity to clearly identify what his message is and show the rest of America that his message is stronger… and what he believes in is stronger, and what he’s trying to do is unify the country and actually give the country an option besides the same-old, same-old. If he can manage to do that in a clear room where there’s no other candidates, meaning, if Elizabeth Warren does decide to jump out. Because if Elizabeth Warren stays in until the convention, I see the road being a very tough road to go ahead.
Also, the main thing is, if you want to see what happens with Bernie Sanders’ supporters, then the DNC better do a damn good job with making sure that that convention up in Milwaukee is clean, fair, and the media narrative is not Bernie got screwed. Because if that happens, then you’re going to see a low turnout no matter what kind of gas lighting, no matter what kind of pressuring the establishment is going to do on more progressive voters at that time. So it depends on what happens at the DNC convention, to be quite honest with you. If it’s ugly, if it’s nasty, if they’re keeping people like Nina Turner off the stage again, they’re keeping people with more progressive voices off the stage again… then you’re going to see a very disappointed group of voters that can literally give you the nomination.
Also, lastly of course, turn out. Talking to the Latino voters, talking to African-American voters in the general election. If they’re not able to do that and they can’t bring out a message that works, they’re in trouble.
Marc Steiner: Not just… Everybody is in trouble. This country’s in deep trouble if that happens. And you see Obama’s hands already on the scale. He’s talked to Buttigieg and Bloomberg, talking to Klobuchar, and they all made this decision about who they were going to back. Jaisal, your thoughts.
Jaisal Noor: So if you listen to Bernie Sanders, his campaign message, his path to victory, he said it again and again, a multiracial coalition bringing out people that don’t normally vote. His problem has been, is that turnout and increasing turnout. His problem has been so far, that hasn’t happened. We have a lot more clarity now, now with the field consolidated. We have another debate March 15th. There might be only two or three candidates on that stage if Elizabeth Warren drops out. She hasn’t indicated she’s going to do so yet. But again, if Bernie can take off the gloves and talk about Biden’s record around healthcare, around Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare, he’s running those ads where Biden is bragging in his own words that he promised to cut those things… the race is really going to shape out.
I’d agree with the assessment that the DNC needs to end. Even Elizabeth Warren in 2016, Donna Brazil in 2016, said that the DNC had their finger on the scale. And so that’s right, they’re going to have to work really hard to make this a clean and transparent process. And if no candidate gets that 1,991 delegates, there’s going to have to be compromises on both sides. The thing that we haven’t talked about yet, which is definitely worth mentioning as far as a potential victory in November, is going to be voter suppression. We saw those long lines in Texas, people waiting seven or eight hours in line. Not everyone has that ability to stay in line for those hours. We know that something like two dozen states have passed restrictive voting laws. Even in places in many states where they have Republicans in control, make it harder to vote. Especially for older voters, African-American voters. I think ultimately, it’s going to come down to that. And of course, we know that the selection is going to be decided by the electoral college.
So we’re going to see if the Democrats make the same mistake in not campaigning hard enough in those states where Trump pulled out those victories. Those big swing states like Ohio, Michigan. Are they going to put forth a nominee that can really win those states, win over those working-class voters, increase turnout. I think it’s going to come down to that.
Marc Steiner: Well Jaisal Noor, great to have you on as a guest. Our correspondent here for The Real News, has been covering this election. And Marcus Ferrell, political consultant and a former both Sanders’ and Abrams’ campaign director. Good to have you with us as well. Marcus, thank you so much.
Marcus Ferrell: Awesome. Every time.
Marc Steiner: And I’m Marc Steiner here for The Real News Network. Please let us know what you think. Go to our website, send us a note. How you think this coverage is going, where you think we should be going. We want to hear from you. Take care.
Studio: Bababtunde Ogunfolaju, Will Arenas
Production: Genevieve Montinar, Will Arenas, Andrew Corkery
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