therealnews--2020-04-17--We Can Defeat The Narcissist In Chief

We Can Defeat The Narcissist In Chief

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
Marc Steiner : Welcome to The Real News .
This is Marc Steiner and it ’ s great to have you with us once again .
Now look , we are faced with an increasing dilemma .
The narcissist and chief at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue continues to rant during the Covid-19 pandemic .
You lashes out at reporters , and the press , not just in his unseemly manner , but one that threatens the freedom of press itself .
He not only avoids reality @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Recently , he threatened to adjourn both Houses of Congress to get his way on appointments .
Hidden behind the manners of a king or his courtiers at the heritage foundation , the federalist society , the Coke brothers , where appointing young people to the federal courts or on the far right , dismantling environmental laws , threatening our right to vote , trying to destroy reproductive rights , and in the midst of Corona , allowing corporations to build their profits on our pains and our fears .
What are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we do , rather than just give up our hands and say , “ Oh no.
” Well , my friend and colleague , Bill Fletcher joins us today .
He ’ s been on racial justice , labor and international activist for a long time .
Author of numerous books including They ’ re Bankrupting Us !
And 20 Other Myths about Unions and Solidarity Divided , and his mystery novel that I love , The Man Who Fell From the Sky .
And welcome , Good to have you with us @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with Trump for a moment here .
He ’ s such , he clearly is just off the rails as a human being , in many ways .
So now we have him , here ’ s a clip from him talking about Congress .
Donal Trump : If the House will not agree to that adjournment I will exercise my constitutional authority to adjourn both Chambers of Congress .
The current practice of leaving town while conducting phony pro forma sessions is a dereliction of duty that the American people can not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a scam what they do .
It ’ s a scam , and everybody knows it .
Marc Steiner : And what he ’ s doing here obviously is altering article two section three of the constitution that gives the president certain rights that no one has ever bloody invoked .
But I would not put it past him to attempt to do it .
What does that say to us ?
Bill Fletcher : It says what everyone should have known .
I did say it .
Where is the surprise ” @ @ @ @ @ @ @ dealing with a bully who will not stop until he is done .
And what happens is that , people , his bullying behavior has become , as the word of the day is , normalized .
People get used to it .
They get used to him pushing the envelope , breaking all the rules , breaking all the protocol , and they feel powerless .
And they feel powerless in part because the counter offensive to Trump has been restricted to what ’ s going to , what ’ s going @ @ @ @ @ @ @ fact what should ’ ve been happening the last several years , is disruption .
See , there ’ s no price that Trump has to pay .
There ’ s little price that the Republicans have to pay .
The Republican Party certainly became nervous after 2018 , but at the end of the day they don ’ t think that they ’ re really going to have a major price to pay .
And that ’ s why the obligation falls on us Marc .
We need to be thinking about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ offensive .
This man … There ’ s a story , I can ’ t remember whether you and I discussed this , from Italian history , the beginning of Mussolini ’ s regime , when there was a socialist minister of the parliament who was an outspoken critic of Mussolini .
And one day he ends up dead .
His name was Marriott .
And one day he ends up dead .
Now there ’ s a historical controversy as to whether Mussolini ordered and killed or whether it was fascist groups @ @ @ @ @ @ @ matter , because everyone knew it was the fascists that carried this out .
And there was this moment when the parliament could have risen up and ousted Mussolini , but they didn ’ t .
They blinked .
And when they blinked they gave him ultimately more authority to move forward and to construct his full fascist state .
There had been numerous occasions since 2016 when there have been what I call [ inaudible 00:04:48 ] moments when this maniac could ’ ve and should ’ ve been stopped , and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ It ’ s strange you say , this is a slight digression , but you mentioned Mussolini , I ’ m actually working on a piece now that puts Mussolini and Trump side-by-side .
The mannerisms , the things they say .
They ’ re not too far apart .
And they- Marc Steiner : … They really aren ’ t .
And when you look at this , this thing that just really blew my mind the other day was reading this report from the committee to protect journalists , and they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and the Media , that documents all the stuff he ’ s done to go after the media , like getting customs and border to protect , to check journalists ’ equipment and what they ’ ve written , going for and calling for boycotts of news organizations , and all the things he ’ s done , not having press briefings for a year .
And this is the stuff that is of authoritarian dictators , even the , what I mentioned earlier with , was telling Congress that he may try @ @ @ @ @ @ @ said about the governors and forced them to do what he wants to do and had to backtrack .
So , people look at this , and then they look at Bernie Sanders dropping out , suspending his campaign and saying , “ Well I can ’ t support B-B-Biden and I can ’ t do this because here ’ s , because , you know , this Bernie Sanders is , is who I wanted and , and , and , and this is just a neo liberal , ” but it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ some alternate alternative reality where we ’ re not seeing what ’ s in front of us .
Marc Steiner : So people are just wanting to give up and just say , “ I ’ m not gon na participate ” or “ I ’ m gon na run away.
” But it ’ s , how do you begin the conversation and say , “ Look , this is what we ’ re facing and this is what we have to do ” ?
Bill Fletcher : Well , there ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the first point I want to make may come as a surprise .
I think of Trump , even though I agree with you in terms of mannerisms with Mussolini , I think that Trump is very consistent with US history .
All you have to do is look at the South and the Southwest during the period of Jim Crow ’ s segregation , and de facto , Jim Crow ’ s segregation in the Southwest , and you see very similar behaviors in terms of levels of oppression , impact on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the state legislatures .
So in some ways , apart from Rap Brown it ’ s as American as cherry pie .
And I think that what happens is that there ’ s many of us that have looked at history as a linear project where things pretty much improve in a straight line , and we don ’ t understand that ’ s not the way history has ever worked .
History is all over the place with advances and retreats , regression .
And so we ’ re seeing a guy @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the best Southern and Southwestern governors that we ’ ve had .
And by best , I ’ m putting that in quotes , are the most racist , the most maniacal , most dictatorial .
So that ’ s point number one , in the sense that it ’ s not like it only happened in Italy or Germany .
Now the second thing , Marc , is really to your point , is that unfortunately there are people that think that there really is a choice in November between I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And , there is no choice .
I was talking to my wife the other day about 1968 , and about how many people of our generation took a pass on the election because we didn ’ t like Humphrey , Hubert Humphrey , and what a tragic mistake that was when we look at what happened subsequently .
But the thing about our generation was that things , we were on a roll in terms of there were great advances , we had all these victories , and because many of us @ @ @ @ @ @ @ thought it was just going to continue .
Today there is nobody that should make that assumption .
We have been coming from the defeat after defeat , and we know that things can actually get worse .
So the issue , the option is not staying home versus voting .
There is no option .
You got to vote because of what is at stake .
There are those that I ’ ve had arguments with , particularly on Facebook , which is why I ’ m almost on the verge of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ feel like I ’ ve ended up wasting an immense amount of time in debating with knuckleheads .
But they make these arguments that , “ Oh , you know , you ’ re selling out Fletcher and blah blah , ” and I have to vote with my conscience .
And I ’ m asking , how was your conscience going to work when you ’ re in a concentration camp ?
That ’ s what I want to know .
Bill Fletcher : Right ?
How is it going to work @ @ @ @ @ @ @ by death squads ?
How is your conscience going to work when the postal service is privatized ?
How ’ s your conscience going to work when we ’ re dealing with court judges that are going to be , as you were referencing , holding their position for possibly 40 , 50 years .
So it ’ s a luxury for someone to say that .
And I don ’ t think it ’ s worth debating with them frankly .
Marc Steiner : The thing is that I look at this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and I think about , and I ’ ve been saying this a lot in my writing and also in my conversations , that we have to look at what ’ s happening in the 21st century .
They look in the 19th century and you think of 1877 , you think at the end of reconstruction , the end of the great experiment in American democracy , you see when we started the mass incarceration of native people , trying to destroy unions and workers ’ rights as they were just beginning @ @ @ @ @ @ @ when they they seized the government and turned it backwards from the radical Republicans .
Then you think about 1932 Germany .
And I think about that because it was a time when the communists and socialists and liberals and social democrats and deep moral thinkers in churches couldn ’ t get together to oppose the Nazis and their populist agenda and Hitler in power .
And in one , you had 90 years of abject terror against black people in America , in the South , and destroying their rights across the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in Germany .
And I think , I don ’ t want to make too much of this , but I ’ m not making too much is what I ’ m saying , I think we ’ re on the same abyss at this moment with all we fought for in the last 50 years .
So you can either throw up your hands and go , “ I quit , I roll over , ” as you were saying to me earlier that this is , we can I have an @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , it ’ s done ” , right ?
Marc Steiner : Or we can figure out what it means to struggle and organize and to fight , and how you do it .
Bill Fletcher : That ’ s right .
Exactly .
Which is why , to go back to an early discussion we had , I ’ m sick and tired of reading apocalyptic things .
I don ’ t mean science fiction , which I , actually am not reading any more apocalyptic science fiction , but reading these @ @ @ @ @ @ @ now , how it ’ s going to get even worse .
And that ’ s where the story ends .
And as I was mentioning , I had an argument with a friend of mine because I said , “ I ’ m not interested in that.
” If you think about some of the worst periods in history , so from the United States standpoint , December 19th , when after Pearl Harbor , the US fleet had basically been destroyed .
Can you imagine if the joint chiefs of staff @ @ @ @ @ @ @ said , “ Oh my God , what are we going to do ?
This is it .
It ’ s all over.
” Right ?
What would Roosevelt have done ?
He would have fired them all , right ?
And the reality is that no , they knew how bad the situation was .
So what they went to work on was planning to the counter offensive .
And what we , unfortunately many of us really do , many progressives , really do believe a version of , the worst @ @ @ @ @ @ @ because the other side will prove how evil they are .
And this will lead people to rise up .
And this was the mistake that the communist party of Germany made in 1932 .
And it was a tragic mistake .
The Social Democrats made a different mistake , they ’ ve made a very big mistake .
And it was the mistake that many of us made in 1968 .
I remember Marc , some black revolutionaries telling me they voted in ’ 68 for George Wallace because they said , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : Right ?
And it ’ s , well wait a minute , do you understand the implications of all this ?
So there are people that really do believe that … There ’ s also people unfortunately that believe that there really is no difference between Chuck Schumer and Trump , or Cuomo and Trump .
And I think that what we have to understand , to use another historical metaphor , is that this is like Britain in 1940 during the Blitz .
The German bombers are flying over blasting the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the things that means is that we have to organize differently .
We can ’ t organize in the same way .
So with Covid-19 means we chant organize in the same way .
But the second thing is it means that , there are some people who not too long ago we might ’ ve despised , but right now we got to unite with them , because there ’ s a greater danger with those German bombers flying over , and in our case there ’ s this greater danger @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in Congress , they represent a very deep , if not existential danger .
And that means that there ’ s some people that , for now , we will have to come to a agreement with to unite against Trump .
And I think that that ’ s the way people need to look at the November elections with Biden .
No Biden ’ s not a socialist , not even a progressive .
The question is whether he will give progressive folks more space , whether he will beat back these @ @ @ @ @ @ @ will have better court appointments .
I think that that ’ s the way you look at it .
Marc Steiner : So let ’ s conclude with this .
I was thinking about this with the concept of what you ’ re saying and I was also visualizing what happened in Michigan the other day when hundreds of cars blocked the roads around the state house because they didn ’ t want to do what their democratic governor said about staying at home and having the sanctions .
They came out with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and blocked traffic for miles and miles and miles and miles .
This was a right wing racist mob , akin to the mobs that lynched black folks and Mexicans and the people in this country in the history .
Marc Steiner : So that ’ s what we ’ re facing .
And then you have Biden , he could either go over and start appealing to Republicans or he can actually bring the progressives in and say , “ Let ’ s fight this together and build a coalition that beats @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , where do you think we have to go strategically ?
How to be able to start thinking , what has to be done that changes the dynamic that doesn ’ t allow that mob to rule and take over and take us backwards ?
Bill Fletcher : Well , first thing is that the governor of Michigan probably should have taken a different tactical approach , and probably should ’ ve welcomed all of them and ordered a lot of cake for everybody to come up and get a slice of , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ all of their love and affection .
And that probably should have been the tactical approach of the government in charge .
But she didn ’ t call me .
So , I think that the mistake we can ’ t make again is sitting back waiting for somebody to ask us to engage in a struggle with them .
In this case , we can ’ t sit back and say , “ Well , I ’ ll vote for Biden if he approaches [ inaudible 00:18:33 ] .
” No , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we should say , as some of these younger folks , younger activists did last week or the week before when they wrote an open letter to Biden , we should say , “ We ’ re here , we ’ re ready to work , and these are our terms .
This is the way it ’ s going to be Joe.
” And it was the way I felt when Perez became the head of the DNC .
Most progressives I knew were saying , “ Well , let ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ said to a number of people , “ What do mean let ’ s see what he does ?
Why don ’ t a 100 of us go down to the DNC and demand a meeting .
Don ’ t call in advance .
100 people show up .
Tell me what Perez is going to do ?
” Right ?
It just changes the dynamic .
We no longer sitting back being passive .
We become instruments of our own emancipation .
Marc Steiner : I think that what you ’ re @ @ @ @ @ @ @ deeper and longer conversation , a series of conversations about where we go .
And as I said for about a year , I was in this email conversation with another activist , Norman Solomon , on this very idea and the role that we as the news and such places can play in creating this conversation that says , “ Look , we really have to talk to each other about where we ’ re going and how are we gon na get there.
” And bring the forces that may not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the progressive side to say we have to talk about this and not just throw up our hands and give up .
Bill Fletcher : That ’ s right .
And now is the time .
And since I have a lot of time on my hands right now being home , I ’ m ready as soon as you are .
Let ’ s rock and roll .
Marc Steiner : Let ’ s do it .
Bill Fletcher , it ’ s always an inspiration and always great to talk to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ time .
Marc Steiner : And enjoy your isolation , but we all stay connected in our isolation .
Bill Fletcher : Absolutely .
And as the Klingon Empire says [ Foreign Language 00:20:32 ] .
Marc Steiner : I want to thank you all for joining us .
Please tell us what you think and how we can continue this conversation .
I am pleased .
Do me a favor , stay isolated , stay healthy , and take care of yourselves .
Take care .

Writer and activist Bill Fletcher tells TRNN’s Marc Steiner that citizens should organize and not despair.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Marc Steiner: Welcome to The Real News. This is Marc Steiner and it’s great to have you with us once again. Now look, we are faced with an increasing dilemma. The narcissist and chief at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue continues to rant during the Covid-19 pandemic. You lashes out at reporters, and the press, not just in his unseemly manner, but one that threatens the freedom of press itself. He not only avoids reality, but creates his own mythological reality.
Recently, he threatened to adjourn both Houses of Congress to get his way on appointments. Hidden behind the manners of a king or his courtiers at the heritage foundation, the federalist society, the Coke brothers, where appointing young people to the federal courts or on the far right, dismantling environmental laws, threatening our right to vote, trying to destroy reproductive rights, and in the midst of Corona, allowing corporations to build their profits on our pains and our fears.
What are we faced with here? What do we do, rather than just give up our hands and say, “Oh no.” Well, my friend and colleague, Bill Fletcher joins us today. He’s been on racial justice, labor and international activist for a long time. Author of numerous books including They’re Bankrupting Us! And 20 Other Myths about Unions and Solidarity Divided, and his mystery novel that I love, The Man Who Fell From the Sky. And welcome, Good to have you with us Bill.
Bill Fletcher: Always good Marc, always good.
Marc Steiner: So start with Trump for a moment here. He’s such, he clearly is just off the rails as a human being, in many ways. So now we have him, here’s a clip from him talking about Congress.
Donal Trump: If the House will not agree to that adjournment I will exercise my constitutional authority to adjourn both Chambers of Congress. The current practice of leaving town while conducting phony pro forma sessions is a dereliction of duty that the American people cannot afford during this crisis. It is a scam what they do. It’s a scam, and everybody knows it.
Marc Steiner: And what he’s doing here obviously is altering article two section three of the constitution that gives the president certain rights that no one has ever bloody invoked. But I would not put it past him to attempt to do it. What does that say to us?
Bill Fletcher: It says what everyone should have known. I did say it. Where is the surprise” It’s, we’re dealing with a bully who will not stop until he is done. And what happens is that, people, his bullying behavior has become, as the word of the day is, normalized. People get used to it. They get used to him pushing the envelope, breaking all the rules, breaking all the protocol, and they feel powerless. And they feel powerless in part because the counter offensive to Trump has been restricted to what’s going to, what’s going to happen in November, when in fact what should’ve been happening the last several years, is disruption.
See, there’s no price that Trump has to pay. There’s little price that the Republicans have to pay. The Republican Party certainly became nervous after 2018, but at the end of the day they don’t think that they’re really going to have a major price to pay. And that’s why the obligation falls on us Marc. We need to be thinking about what are the parameters of the counter offensive. This man … There’s a story, I can’t remember whether you and I discussed this, from Italian history, the beginning of Mussolini’s regime, when there was a socialist minister of the parliament who was an outspoken critic of Mussolini. And one day he ends up dead. His name was Marriott. And one day he ends up dead.
Now there’s a historical controversy as to whether Mussolini ordered and killed or whether it was fascist groups, but it doesn’t really matter, because everyone knew it was the fascists that carried this out. And there was this moment when the parliament could have risen up and ousted Mussolini, but they didn’t. They blinked. And when they blinked they gave him ultimately more authority to move forward and to construct his full fascist state. There had been numerous occasions since 2016 when there have been what I call [inaudible 00:04:48] moments when this maniac could’ve and should’ve been stopped, and people keep blinking.
Marc Steiner: It’s strange you say, this is a slight digression, but you mentioned Mussolini, I’m actually working on a piece now that puts Mussolini and Trump side-by-side. The mannerisms, the things they say. They’re not too far apart. And they-
Bill Fletcher: No.
Marc Steiner: … They really aren’t. And when you look at this, this thing that just really blew my mind the other day was reading this report from the committee to protect journalists, and they created a report called the Trump Administration and the Media, that documents all the stuff he’s done to go after the media, like getting customs and border to protect, to check journalists’ equipment and what they’ve written, going for and calling for boycotts of news organizations, and all the things he’s done, not having press briefings for a year.
And this is the stuff that is of authoritarian dictators, even the, what I mentioned earlier with, was telling Congress that he may try to adjourn them, and what he said about the governors and forced them to do what he wants to do and had to backtrack. So, people look at this, and then they look at Bernie Sanders dropping out, suspending his campaign and saying, “Well I can’t support B-B-Biden and I can’t do this because here’s, because, you know, this Bernie Sanders is, is who I wanted and, and, and, and this is just a neo liberal,” but it’s as if we are in some alternate alternative reality where we’re not seeing what’s in front of us.
Bill Fletcher: Right.
Marc Steiner: So people are just wanting to give up and just say, “I’m not gonna participate” or “I’m gonna run away.” But it’s, how do you begin the conversation and say, “Look, this is what we’re facing and this is what we have to do”?
Bill Fletcher: Well, there’s two points in there, and the first point I want to make may come as a surprise. I think of Trump, even though I agree with you in terms of mannerisms with Mussolini, I think that Trump is very consistent with US history. All you have to do is look at the South and the Southwest during the period of Jim Crow’s segregation, and de facto, Jim Crow’s segregation in the Southwest, and you see very similar behaviors in terms of levels of oppression, impact on the media, what was happening in the state legislatures. So in some ways, apart from Rap Brown it’s as American as cherry pie.
And I think that what happens is that there’s many of us that have looked at history as a linear project where things pretty much improve in a straight line, and we don’t understand that’s not the way history has ever worked. History is all over the place with advances and retreats, regression. And so we’re seeing a guy who is borrowing the playbook of some of the best Southern and Southwestern governors that we’ve had. And by best, I’m putting that in quotes, are the most racist, the most maniacal, most dictatorial.
So that’s point number one, in the sense that it’s not like it only happened in Italy or Germany. Now the second thing, Marc, is really to your point, is that unfortunately there are people that think that there really is a choice in November between I’m staying home or voting. And, there is no choice. I was talking to my wife the other day about 1968, and about how many people of our generation took a pass on the election because we didn’t like Humphrey, Hubert Humphrey, and what a tragic mistake that was when we look at what happened subsequently.
But the thing about our generation was that things, we were on a roll in terms of there were great advances, we had all these victories, and because many of us didn’t appreciate history, we thought it was just going to continue. Today there is nobody that should make that assumption. We have been coming from the defeat after defeat, and we know that things can actually get worse. So the issue, the option is not staying home versus voting. There is no option. You got to vote because of what is at stake.
There are those that I’ve had arguments with, particularly on Facebook, which is why I’m almost on the verge of giving up on Facebook, because I feel like I’ve ended up wasting an immense amount of time in debating with knuckleheads. But they make these arguments that, “Oh, you know, you’re selling out Fletcher and blah blah,” and I have to vote with my conscience. And I’m asking, how was your conscience going to work when you’re in a concentration camp? That’s what I want to know.
Marc Steiner: Exactly right.
Bill Fletcher: Right? How is it going to work when some of our leaders get whacked by death squads? How is your conscience going to work when the postal service is privatized? How’s your conscience going to work when we’re dealing with court judges that are going to be, as you were referencing, holding their position for possibly 40, 50 years. So it’s a luxury for someone to say that. And I don’t think it’s worth debating with them frankly.
Marc Steiner: The thing is that I look at this, and I think about history, and I think about, and I’ve been saying this a lot in my writing and also in my conversations, that we have to look at what’s happening in the 21st century. They look in the 19th century and you think of 1877, you think at the end of reconstruction, the end of the great experiment in American democracy, you see when we started the mass incarceration of native people, trying to destroy unions and workers’ rights as they were just beginning. All that was happening in 1877 when they they seized the government and turned it backwards from the radical Republicans.
Then you think about 1932 Germany. And I think about that because it was a time when the communists and socialists and liberals and social democrats and deep moral thinkers in churches couldn’t get together to oppose the Nazis and their populist agenda and Hitler in power. And in one, you had 90 years of abject terror against black people in America, in the South, and destroying their rights across the country. And we know what happened in Germany.
And I think, I don’t want to make too much of this, but I’m not making too much is what I’m saying, I think we’re on the same abyss at this moment with all we fought for in the last 50 years. So you can either throw up your hands and go, “I quit, I roll over,” as you were saying to me earlier that this is, we can I have an apocalyptic vision and say, “Oh, it’s done”, right?
Bill Fletcher: Right.
Marc Steiner: Or we can figure out what it means to struggle and organize and to fight, and how you do it.
Bill Fletcher: That’s right.
Marc Steiner: Right?
Bill Fletcher: That’s right. Exactly. Which is why, to go back to an early discussion we had, I’m sick and tired of reading apocalyptic things. I don’t mean science fiction, which I, actually am not reading any more apocalyptic science fiction, but reading these tracks about how bad everything is right now, how it’s going to get even worse. And that’s where the story ends. And as I was mentioning, I had an argument with a friend of mine because I said, “I’m not interested in that.” If you think about some of the worst periods in history, so from the United States standpoint, December 19th, when after Pearl Harbor, the US fleet had basically been destroyed. Can you imagine if the joint chiefs of staff had sat in a room in Washington said, “Oh my God, what are we going to do? This is it. It’s all over.” Right?
What would Roosevelt have done? He would have fired them all, right? And the reality is that no, they knew how bad the situation was. So what they went to work on was planning to the counter offensive. And what we, unfortunately many of us really do, many progressives, really do believe a version of, the worst things get the better it will be because the other side will prove how evil they are. And this will lead people to rise up. And this was the mistake that the communist party of Germany made in 1932. And it was a tragic mistake. The Social Democrats made a different mistake, they’ve made a very big mistake. And it was the mistake that many of us made in 1968. I remember Marc, some black revolutionaries telling me they voted in ’68 for George Wallace because they said, “Bring it on.”
Marc Steiner: Right.
Bill Fletcher: Right? And it’s, well wait a minute, do you understand the implications of all this? So there are people that really do believe that … There’s also people unfortunately that believe that there really is no difference between Chuck Schumer and Trump, or Cuomo and Trump. And I think that what we have to understand, to use another historical metaphor, is that this is like Britain in 1940 during the Blitz. The German bombers are flying over blasting the hell out of Britain. So one of the things that means is that we have to organize differently. We can’t organize in the same way.
So with Covid-19 means we chant organize in the same way. But the second thing is it means that, there are some people who not too long ago we might’ve despised, but right now we got to unite with them, because there’s a greater danger with those German bombers flying over, and in our case there’s this greater danger with Trump. Trump and his minions in Congress, they represent a very deep, if not existential danger. And that means that there’s some people that, for now, we will have to come to a agreement with to unite against Trump. And I think that that’s the way people need to look at the November elections with Biden.
No Biden’s not a socialist, not even a progressive. The question is whether he will give progressive folks more space, whether he will beat back these things that are happening, whether we will have better court appointments. I think that that’s the way you look at it.
Marc Steiner: So let’s conclude with this. I was thinking about this with the concept of what you’re saying and I was also visualizing what happened in Michigan the other day when hundreds of cars blocked the roads around the state house because they didn’t want to do what their democratic governor said about staying at home and having the sanctions. They came out with their Confederate flags and they literally surrounded and blocked traffic for miles and miles and miles and miles. This was a right wing racist mob, akin to the mobs that lynched black folks and Mexicans and the people in this country in the history.
Bill Fletcher: In this country.
Marc Steiner: So that’s what we’re facing. And then you have Biden, he could either go over and start appealing to Republicans or he can actually bring the progressives in and say, “Let’s fight this together and build a coalition that beats this and stops this machine.” So, where do you think we have to go strategically? How to be able to start thinking, what has to be done that changes the dynamic that doesn’t allow that mob to rule and take over and take us backwards?
Bill Fletcher: Well, first thing is that the governor of Michigan probably should have taken a different tactical approach, and probably should’ve welcomed all of them and ordered a lot of cake for everybody to come up and get a slice of, and to hug and kiss and express all of their love and affection. And that probably should have been the tactical approach of the government in charge. But she didn’t call me. So, I think that the mistake we can’t make again is sitting back waiting for somebody to ask us to engage in a struggle with them. In this case, we can’t sit back and say, “Well, I’ll vote for Biden if he approaches [inaudible 00:18:33].” No, we should go to Biden, and we should say, as some of these younger folks, younger activists did last week or the week before when they wrote an open letter to Biden, we should say, “We’re here, we’re ready to work, and these are our terms. This is the way it’s going to be Joe.”
And it was the way I felt when Perez became the head of the DNC. Most progressives I knew were saying, “Well, let’s see what he does.” And I said to a number of people, “What do mean let’s see what he does? Why don’t a 100 of us go down to the DNC and demand a meeting. Don’t call in advance. 100 people show up. Tell me what Perez is going to do?” Right? It just changes the dynamic. We no longer sitting back being passive. We become instruments of our own emancipation.
Marc Steiner: I think that what you’re describing is something that deserves a much deeper and longer conversation, a series of conversations about where we go. And as I said for about a year, I was in this email conversation with another activist, Norman Solomon, on this very idea and the role that we as the news and such places can play in creating this conversation that says, “Look, we really have to talk to each other about where we’re going and how are we gonna get there.” And bring the forces that may not agree together-
Bill Fletcher: Sure.
Marc Steiner: … On the progressive side to say we have to talk about this and not just throw up our hands and give up.
Bill Fletcher: That’s right. And now is the time. And since I have a lot of time on my hands right now being home, I’m ready as soon as you are. Let’s rock and roll.
Marc Steiner: Let’s do it. Bill Fletcher, it’s always an inspiration and always great to talk to you. I appreciate your taking the time.
Bill Fletcher: Okay.
Marc Steiner: And enjoy your isolation, but we all stay connected in our isolation.
Bill Fletcher: Absolutely. And as the Klingon Empire says [Foreign Language 00:20:32].
Marc Steiner: Thank you Bill.
Bill Fletcher: Okay. Take care.
Marc Steiner: I want to thank you all for joining us. Please tell us what you think and how we can continue this conversation. I am pleased. Do me a favor, stay isolated, stay healthy, and take care of yourselves. Take care.
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therealnews--2020-04-20--Stir Crazy! Episode #17: Our Dankest Ever: In Weed We Trust

All donations in the US and Canada are tax deductible .
To make a secure donation by credit or debit @ @ @ @ @ location , or select PayPal .

Episode #17 of Stir Crazy, on The Real News Network. Today’s show is our dankest ever. We are joined by special guests and coauthors of “I Got A Monster: The Rise and Fall of America’s Most Corrupt Police Squad” Baynard Woods and Brandon Soderberg, who report on cannabis policy for the newsletter The Outlaw Report. Also on the show Real News investigative reporter and host of The Police Accountability Report, Taya Graham. Hosted by Kim Brown.
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therealnews--2020-04-20--Reinventing 420 in the Age of Coronavirus

Reinventing 420 in the Age of Coronavirus April 20 , the semi-official day of celebration for cannabis is here .
The tradition of “ 420 , ” which started in the early ‘ 70s as a group of Bay Area high schoolers meeting at 4:20 PM to get high , is now celebrated annually and internationally on April 20 , and has evolved over the past half century into part day of protest against drug prohibition and part carnival of cannabis capitalism and consumption .
But the COVID-19 pandemic and resulting lock-downs have cancelled most 420 events across the country @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ” in most states where it is legal and thus remains available for purchase , state governments , medical experts , and even activist organizations like NORML all issued “ stay home this 4/20 ” directives , imploring cannabis enthusiasts to prioritize public health over consumerism and recreation .
And for good reason : mass public gatherings significantly increase the risk of infection and excessive cannabis smoking compromises one ’ s ability to fight the respiratory symptoms of the virus .
The ongoing pandemic and resulting cancelation of 420 presents an opportunity to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and perhaps even the cannabis movement .
As coronavirus affects us all but infects and kills black and brown Americans and prisoners at disproportionately higher rates , now is the time to stop and reflect on the history of the 420 tradition and to reinvent its meaning and practice both during the pandemic and moving forward .
Rather than privileging the interests of Big Bud over public health and social justice , the tradition of 420 should be rerooted in ethical consumption and equity .
Like St. Patrick ’ s Day and Columbus @ @ @ @ @ @ @ particular time and place for a particular purpose and then , over time , evolved to take on new forms and meanings for new people in response to new realities and it ’ s time for it to evolve again .
Historian Eric Hobsbawm famously labeled this process the “ invention of tradition ” and argued that it most often occurs in history during periods of rapid change and crisis in society that upend socio-cultural norms , launching people and communities into a search for new meaning and order .
Take for example @ @ @ @ @ @ @ U.S. during the late 1800s , the public celebration of Columbus ’ s “ discovery of America ” originated in efforts by Catholic immigrants from Ireland and Italy to gain equal status as U.S. citizens .
To overcome nativist prejudice , Catholic immigrants in cities across the nation organized into mutual-aid associations , such as the Knights of Columbus , and sponsored annual celebrations on October 12—the day in 1492 on which Columbus actually landed in the Bahamas—in honor of the Catholic explorer from Genoa and so-called “ founder of America.
” Into @ @ @ @ @ @ @ adherents beyond immigrant communities , and especially among ( white elite ) Americans looking to justify the nation ’ s rapid industrial and imperial growth .
From the World ’ s Columbian Exposition in Chicago in 1893 to FDR ’ s official designation of Columbus Day as a national holiday in 1934 , the tradition quickly became a symbolic shorthand for American power and exceptionalism .
As FDR put it in 1940 , Columbus Day represented an annual celebration of the nation ’ s role in leading “ the march of human progress @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , faith , and vision of this Genoese navigator.
” But starting in the late 1970s , indigenous Americans began to call for the reinvention of Columbus Day to historically account for the hundreds of thousands of lives and acres lost to European and then American imperialism over the previous five centuries .
Part and parcel of the Rights Revolution ( s ) of the ’ 50s and ’ 60s , the Indigenous Peoples ’ Movement worked to upend socio-cultural norms of equality in the U.S. and to reclaim the history whitewashed and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ celebrations .
In 1989 , South Dakota became the first state to officially sanction the annual celebration of Indigenous Peoples ’ Day on the second Monday of October .
Today , 12 states include the holiday on their official calendars , and public celebrations of indigenous peoples ’ heritage take place every October in over 50 different cities and towns across the U.S. Much like Columbus Day , the tradition of 420 has been reinvented several times since its first inception in the early 1970s .
Like Columbus Day , the 420 tradition @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on new forms and meanings for more and more people .
The first real invention of 420 thus came in the late ’ 70s , when the inside joke between friends in Marin County spread to American popular culture via the Grateful Dead and connected it to a larger subculture .
Several of the Waldos—as the teenagers who met weekly at 4:20 called themselves—had personal connections to the Dead ; one of their brothers worked as a roadie for the band , while another ’ s father managed the band ’ s finances @ @ @ @ @ @ @ via Dead tours and music festivals , the term “ 420 , ” as well as the ritual of smoking weed at 4:20 PM , came by the late ‘ 80s to occupy a central position within the cannabis counter-culture symbology of the “ Dead Head ” scene .
The tradition ’ s second reinvention took place during the ’ 90s , when cannabis activists in the U.S. began staging public protests and “ smoke-ins ” against drug prohibition annually on April 20 .
One the first of these public smoke-ins took place @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Story goes that a reporter for High Times , while attending a Grateful Dead concert at the Oakland Coliseum on 31 December 1990 came across a flyer announcing a meet up in Marin County “ at 4:20 on 4/20 for 420-ing.
” The flyer correctly cited San Rafael as the tradition ’ s birthplace .
But it also contended—and erroneously it turns out—that the term originated as a code for cannabis crimes used by local police .
This reinvention of the term “ 420 , ” however incorrect , made April 20 for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ civil disobedience and a symbol of protest against the drug ’ s prohibition in the U.S. During the past two decades , as the contentious cannabis politics of the ‘ 90s gave way to a new era of medicalization and legalization , the tradition of 420 once again was reinvented to address new and increasingly corporate concerns .
Especially in states where cannabis has been legalized , 420 celebrations—once staged illegally with the intention of provoking mass arrests—have morphed into government-sanctioned and corporate-sponsored carnivals of consumption , reinvented by Big Bud and tailored @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Thus what started as a group of friends getting high after school transformed fifty years on into a messy mélange of St. Patrick ’ s Day and Black Friday for cannabis consumers and corporations .
Beneath the mass consumerism and corporate veneer of today ’ s 420 , however , cannabis legalization remains a social and racial justice issue .
As cannabis producers and retailers , and governments in 33 states make billions of dollars in revenue from legal cannabis sales , black and brown Americans remain disproportionately imprisoned for cannabis crimes @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Undocumented immigrants continue to face the constant threat of deportation for simple cannabis posession , and even in states where the drug is fully legal .
And as a report released Friday by the ACLU concludes , things are only getting worse .
Their study shows that black Americans have continued to suffer unjust policing and disproportionate arrests for cannabis related crimes , and particularly public consumption violations , in the age of legalization .
Their research shows that since 2016 black Americans are on average 3.6 times more likely to be arrested @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Thus , as the report concludes , “ legalization is not enough.
” The cancelation of 420 this year provides an opportunity to reinvent the tradition to do more for those left out of legalization.The disproportionate impact of coronavirus on black and brown communities in the U.S. coupled with the alarming rates of infection inside America ’ s prisons bluntly remind us that the Rights Revolutions of the 20th century are far from complete .
To mindlessly or recklessly celebrate cannabis consumption or bemoan its temporary proscription is to ignore and further silence @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of America ’ s unjust War on Drugs , a suffering now further compounded by the pandemic .
But as history teaches us , if we want to change the meaning and practice of 420 and for the better , we must take advantage of this time of forced isolation and reflection to reinvent the tradition so as not to whitewash or silence those excluded from the celebrations .
To their credit , several cannabis nonprofits and corporations recently teamed up to sponsor an online event called the Highstream 420 Festival , with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ relief funds and the social justice work of cannabis non-profits , including the Drug Policy Alliance .
So , take time this 420 to prioritize health and justice over pleasure and privilege .
Stay home .
Celebrate responsibly .
And for every dollar you spend on cannabis for the holiday consider donating a dollar to one of the important social justice causes linked below .
David A. Guba Jr is Assistant Professor of History at Bard Early College in Baltimore City , and is the author of Taming Cannabis : Drugs and Empire @ @ @ @ @

by David A. Guba Jr., Ph.D.
April 20, the semi-official day of celebration for cannabis is here. The tradition of “420,” which started in the early ‘70s as a group of Bay Area high schoolers meeting at 4:20 PM to get high, is now celebrated annually and internationally on April 20, and has evolved over the past half century into part day of protest against drug prohibition and part carnival of cannabis capitalism and consumption.
But the COVID-19 pandemic and resulting lock-downs have cancelled most 420 events across the country and though cannabis is deemed “essential” in most states where it is legal and thus remains available for purchase, state governments, medical experts, and even activist organizations like NORML all issued “stay home this 4/20” directives, imploring cannabis enthusiasts to prioritize public health over consumerism and recreation. And for good reason: mass public gatherings significantly increase the risk of infection and excessive cannabis smoking compromises one’s ability to fight the respiratory symptoms of the virus.
The ongoing pandemic and resulting cancelation of 420 presents an opportunity to reinvent the high holiday of cannabis, and perhaps even the cannabis movement. As coronavirus affects us all but infects and kills black and brown Americans and prisoners at disproportionately higher rates, now is the time to stop and reflect on the history of the 420 tradition and to reinvent its meaning and practice both during the pandemic and moving forward. Rather than privileging the interests of Big Bud over public health and social justice, the tradition of 420 should be rerooted in ethical consumption and equity.
Like St. Patrick’s Day and Columbus Day, 420 was invented in a particular time and place for a particular purpose and then, over time, evolved to take on new forms and meanings for new people in response to new realities and it’s time for it to evolve again. Historian Eric Hobsbawm famously labeled this process the “invention of tradition” and argued that it most often occurs in history during periods of rapid change and crisis in society that upend socio-cultural norms, launching people and communities into a search for new meaning and order.
Take for example Columbus Day. First ritualized in the U.S. during the late 1800s, the public celebration of Columbus’s “discovery of America” originated in efforts by Catholic immigrants from Ireland and Italy to gain equal status as U.S. citizens. To overcome nativist prejudice, Catholic immigrants in cities across the nation organized into mutual-aid associations, such as the Knights of Columbus, and sponsored annual celebrations on October 12—the day in 1492 on which Columbus actually landed in the Bahamas—in honor of the Catholic explorer from Genoa and so-called “founder of America.”
Into the 20th century, the tradition gained adherents beyond immigrant communities, and especially among (white elite) Americans looking to justify the nation’s rapid industrial and imperial growth. From the World’s Columbian Exposition in Chicago in 1893 to FDR’s official designation of Columbus Day as a national holiday in 1934, the tradition quickly became a symbolic shorthand for American power and exceptionalism. As FDR put it in 1940, Columbus Day represented an annual celebration of the nation’s role in leading “the march of human progress” let loose by “the courage, faith, and vision of this Genoese navigator.”
But starting in the late 1970s, indigenous Americans began to call for the reinvention of Columbus Day to historically account for the hundreds of thousands of lives and acres lost to European and then American imperialism over the previous five centuries. Part and parcel of the Rights Revolution(s) of the ’50s and ’60s, the Indigenous Peoples’ Movement worked to upend socio-cultural norms of equality in the U.S. and to reclaim the history whitewashed and silenced by a century of Columbus Day celebrations. In 1989, South Dakota became the first state to officially sanction the annual celebration of Indigenous Peoples’ Day on the second Monday of October. Today, 12 states include the holiday on their official calendars, and public celebrations of indigenous peoples’ heritage take place every October in over 50 different cities and towns across the U.S.
Much like Columbus Day, the tradition of 420 has been reinvented several times since its first inception in the early 1970s.
Like Columbus Day, the 420 tradition only became historically significant once it took on new forms and meanings for more and more people. The first real invention of 420 thus came in the late ’70s, when the inside joke between friends in Marin County spread to American popular culture via the Grateful Dead and connected it to a larger subculture. Several of the Waldos—as the teenagers who met weekly at 4:20 called themselves—had personal connections to the Dead; one of their brothers worked as a roadie for the band, while another’s father managed the band’s finances. Spread from California across the globe via Dead tours and music festivals, the term “420,” as well as the ritual of smoking weed at 4:20 PM, came by the late ‘80s to occupy a central position within the cannabis counter-culture symbology of the “Dead Head” scene.
The tradition’s second reinvention took place during the ’90s, when cannabis activists in the U.S. began staging public protests and “smoke-ins” against drug prohibition annually on April 20. One the first of these public smoke-ins took place in April of 1991 in California.
Story goes that a reporter for High Times, while attending a Grateful Dead concert at the Oakland Coliseum on 31 December 1990 came across a flyer announcing a meet up in Marin County “at 4:20 on 4/20 for 420-ing.” The flyer correctly cited San Rafael as the tradition’s birthplace. But it also contended—and erroneously it turns out—that the term originated as a code for cannabis crimes used by local police.
This reinvention of the term “420,” however incorrect, made April 20 for cannabis activists, both an act of civil disobedience and a symbol of protest against the drug’s prohibition in the U.S.
During the past two decades, as the contentious cannabis politics of the ‘90s gave way to a new era of medicalization and legalization, the tradition of 420 once again was reinvented to address new and increasingly corporate concerns. Especially in states where cannabis has been legalized, 420 celebrations—once staged illegally with the intention of provoking mass arrests—have morphed into government-sanctioned and corporate-sponsored carnivals of consumption, reinvented by Big Bud and tailored to a predominantly white and privileged clientele. Thus what started as a group of friends getting high after school transformed fifty years on into a messy mélange of St. Patrick’s Day and Black Friday for cannabis consumers and corporations.
Beneath the mass consumerism and corporate veneer of today’s 420, however, cannabis legalization remains a social and racial justice issue. As cannabis producers and retailers, and governments in 33 states make billions of dollars in revenue from legal cannabis sales, black and brown Americans remain disproportionately imprisoned for cannabis crimes and burdened by cannabis-related criminal records. Undocumented immigrants continue to face the constant threat of deportation for simple cannabis posession, and even in states where the drug is fully legal.
And as a report released Friday by the ACLU concludes, things are only getting worse. Their study shows that black Americans have continued to suffer unjust policing and disproportionate arrests for cannabis related crimes, and particularly public consumption violations, in the age of legalization. Their research shows that since 2016 black Americans are on average 3.6 times more likely to be arrested for cannabis crimes than white Americans. Thus, as the report concludes, “legalization is not enough.”
The cancellation of 420 this year provides an opportunity to reinvent the tradition to do more for those left out of legalization.The disproportionate impact of coronavirus on black and brown communities in the U.S. coupled with the alarming rates of infection inside America’s prisons bluntly remind us that the Rights Revolutions of the 20th century are far from complete. To mindlessly or recklessly celebrate cannabis consumption or bemoan its temporary proscription is to ignore and further silence the continued suffering of the many casualties of America’s unjust War on Drugs, a suffering now further compounded by the pandemic.
But as history teaches us, if we want to change the meaning and practice of 420 and for the better, we must take advantage of this time of forced isolation and reflection to reinvent the tradition so as not to whitewash or silence those excluded from the celebrations. To their credit, several cannabis nonprofits and corporations recently teamed up to sponsor an online event called the Highstream 420 Festival, with a percentage of proceeds going to covid-19 relief funds and the social justice work of cannabis non-profits, including the Drug Policy Alliance.
So, take time this 420 to prioritize health and justice over pleasure and privilege. Stay home. Celebrate responsibly. And for every dollar you spend on cannabis for the holiday consider donating a dollar to one of the important social justice causes linked below.
ACLU
Drug Policy Alliance
Americans for Safe Access
National Bail Out
Native American Community Response Fund (Covid-19)
Sanctuary DMV
David A. Guba Jr is Assistant Professor of History at Bard Early College in Baltimore City, and is the author of Taming Cannabis: Drugs and Empire in Nineteenth Century France.
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therealnews--2020-04-20--They Were Not Sent to Prison for a Death Sentence

Nkechi Taifa , convener for the Justice Roundtable , talks about the reasons civil rights organizations are filing lawsuits against @ @ @ @ @ the nation .

Executive Producer
Eddie Conway is an Executive Producer of The Real News Network. He is the host of the TRNN show Rattling the Bars. He is Chairman of the Board of Ida B's Restaurant, and the author of two books: Marshall Law: The Life & Times of a Baltimore Black Panther and The Greatest Threat: The Black Panther Party and COINTELPRO. A former member of the Black Panther Party, Eddie Conway is an internationally known political prisoner for over 43 years, a long time prisoners' rights organizer in Maryland, the co-founder of the Friend of a Friend mentoring program, and the President of Tubman House Inc. of Baltimore. He is a national and international speaker and has several degrees.


therealnews--2020-04-20--Bank Stops Seizing Stimulus Checks After Exposé

This is a rushed transcript .
It will be updated Jaisal Noor : Welcome to The Real News .
I ’ m Jaisal Noor .
The bank USAA says , it will stop seizing coronavirus stimulus checks from customers with debt and says it will refund all the money they ’ ve confiscated so far .
That ’ s after the American Prospect broke the story titled , The Coronavirus Check is Coming .
Your Bank Can Grab It .
Regulators have given banks the green light to use stimulus funds to pay off debts that individuals owe them .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ the author of that story , David Dayen , who is the executive editor of the American Prospect .
Thank you so much for joining us .
David Dayen : Absolutely .
Thanks for having me .
Jaisal Noor : So first of all , congratulations on this week you ’ ve had where , first of all , you broke this initial story that federal regulators basically had said banks can take that stimulus check if you have an outstanding debt .
Something they didn ’ t allow everyone to do .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ resulted in changing their policy on this .
So let ’ s start off by , if you can talk about how you got this tip that the federal regulators had made this move and sort of snuck it into this bailout package .
David Dayen : So a source passed me this audio of a conference call that was being held between the Treasury Department regulators and bank compliance officers , and they were talking about these checks .
They ’ re known within the government as Economic Impact Payments or EIPs @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of debt collection could be done on these EIPs .
There is the designation in the law , a federal benefit designation such that no public or private debt collectors can actually garnished those funds for their purposes .
That includes Social Security payments , two months worth , I believe , veterans benefits , disability payments , things like that , that people need to survive on and to live on .
Debt collectors can ’ t take those payments .
So the question was raised on this call , what about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 1,200 checks for most adults ?
Can those be used to offset bank debt or to for a private debt collector ?
It turns out those EIPs are designated as tax credits .
That ’ s formally how they are looked at by the government .
They are a tax credit that you ’ re getting early from next year ’ s taxes and because of that , they are eligible for private debt collection .
There was a provision in the CARES Act law that said that public agencies , state and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not collect on these payments .
However , that was not extended to private debt collectors or to banks .
The Treasury Department has the opportunity under the law to write a regulation to flag those payments and say those can ’ t be used for this .
But , what we found on this conference call is that Treasury was passing the buck .
The woman who said , who was talking about this said , “ There is nothing in the law that precludes you , ” banks , “ from @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of debts that an individual has with these Economic Impact Payments.
” And that was really seen as a green light for banks to use their own discretion and do whatever they want with these , with this money .
What we subsequently found is that , that ’ s exactly what they did .
Jaisal Noor : And so , USAA mostly serves veterans and families of veterans , which makes it , it ’ s already horrible , but makes it even worse in a lot of people ’ s eyes @ @ @ @ @ @ @ serve veterans , military families .
They have about 13 million members , one of the largest banks in the country .
They were pretty systematically telling people , if you have a negative balance on your account , we ’ re going to use that money that ’ s coming in to offset that negative balance .
I talked to a woman whose husband served and was injured while serving , so he ’ s on disability .
She was a daycare worker who lost her job in the coronavirus crisis .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ were expected to get $ 3,400 from these payments .
What happened was they had outstanding balances with USAA .
They claim it ’ s fraud .
USAA claims it was not fraud on their account and they owe several thousand dollars to them .
They left the bank .
They abandoned the account .
This was a charged off account , which is an accounting term that means that USAA did not expect to recover any money from this ever again .
And so , they were banking with a different bank @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they had for somebody , a direct deposit that they did to give refunds out in the 2018 tax year and that happened to be this old USAA account .
And so , the money went into the USAA account and USAA took all $ 3,400 .
Now , this is a couple who was expecting to use this for rent , for medicine , for a small child , to keep them surviving while this crisis continues and that ’ s true of many , many people .
The woman tried to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was told that you shouldn ’ t have gotten into debt in the first place .
That was what the customer service rep told her there .
I saw text messages where they , USAA , bluntly said , “ This is our policy .
We ’ re going to take this money if it ’ s available to us.
” And they said this not just to this woman , but to multiple individuals .
I saw a text to this effect .
And so , we broke the story and obviously @ @ @ @ @ @ @ around this , not just because of the veteran aspect , but just because the idea that you would take these payments that are supposed to be economic lifelines for people during a pandemic is appalling .
Within a few hours , USAA succumbed to that pressure and they changed their policy and retroactively credited the accounts of all people , including this woman who is going to get that money wired to her .
Jaisal Noor : Now , have you heard from any other banks ?
David Dayen : I have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s Wells Fargo , JP Morgan Chase , Bank of America and Citibank , they got out on front on this and said , they would pause for 30 days any collection on overdue balances , which essentially is a race against time .
It gives people 30 days to get that $ 1,200 out of their account or otherwise , it could potentially be taken if they have a negative balance .
US Bank , I heard from a customer who said his money was garnished by US Bank because he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ US Bank told me that they were trying to make whole all customers , but they said that they were canceling all overdue payments as of the passage of the CARES Act , which was March 27th .
This customer had incurred these charges prior to March 27th and according to him , they were not taken off .
So I ’ m still looking into whether US Bank is honoring what they said is their intent , which is to get all of these payments over to these individuals in full .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ that someone sent me a message , a chat that they had with a customer service representative where that customer service rep said , “ If you have a negative balance , we will take that from your account.
” There are something like 4,500 banks across the country .
I haven ’ t talked to all of them , but it seems like one by one , it ’ s really at the discretion of the bank as to whether they ’ re going to use this emergency funds for payment on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ real solution is for the Treasury Department at this point to write rules saying , you , these payments are protected and you need to retroactively credit anyone who you took money from out of this payment .
Jaisal Noor : So we know , again , as you mentioned , this bailout money , this $ 1,200 that ’ s been going to individuals and more for children and for families , that is really going to be a lifeline for people .
There is at least 22 million people out of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ economic straits .
They ’ ve lost other income or if you hadn ’ t been able to go to work and support their families .
You ’ ve reported on this overall bailout and how and who it ’ s helping and if we ’ ve learned the lessons of the past in the previous financial bailout of 2008 .
It ’ s just beyond the pale because now you have the same people that put forth this inadequate bailout for working people and yet , and have given this unlimited something @ @ @ @ @ @ @ trillion in total amount , and they ’ re the same ones that are calling for the economy to reopen because the economy is suffering , but they ’ re the same ones that haven ’ t done anything about it .
Can you just talk more broadly where this country is right now and what can be done ?
David Dayen : Yeah , I mean , I think what you ’ re getting at is the disproportionality of the response in the CARES Act .
So you have these $ 1,200 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to potential garnishment by private debt collectors .
You have a boost in unemployment .
There is supposed to be a $ 600 weekly boost in unemployment , but state unemployment systems are absolutely buckling .
People who have tried to make claims for unemployment going back a month still haven ’ t gotten through , so that ’ s a rickety part of the system .
You have these small business loans , but within a week they ’ re all cashed .
They ’ re all out the door .
It @ @ @ @ @ @ @ maybe 1.5 million small businesses and there are about 30 million small businesses in America , so that helped a very small fraction of those who are suffering .
A piece in the Wall Street Journal in the beginning of April said that , “ About half of all small businesses didn ’ t pay their rent in April , ” so obviously not enough for what is needed .
And it was very confusing as to who would get it and how they would get it .
You contrast all of that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s appropriated in the bill , which the Federal Reserve can then take and leverage up to about $ 4.5 trillion dollars for the largest corporations in America with very few conditions .
These are very low interest loans .
And if you ’ re a good businessman , you know what to do with free money .
Even if you have to pay it back , you ’ re going to be making a lot of money , especially when it looks like we ’ re going to see so many @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ ll just concentrate power within these large businesses , which will be dominant in many sectors of the economy .
So who gets nursed back to health , who gets the proportionality of a response and who gets the concierge service , right ?
So you had these rickety systems helping individuals and small businesses and the Federal Reserve just handing out money to anyone who wants it through these lending programs that they ’ ve set up for really large corporations .
So it certainly shows you that where you stand @ @ @ @ @ @ @ serving you and how much power and wealth and importance and influence you have .
I mean , in terms of reopening the economy , you really can only do that if we have the proper public health measures in place , the proper testing and things like that .
There was almost no money in this pandemic response bill to actually respond to the pandemic to actually bulk up testing and surge it , so that you actually could reopen the country .
It seems like there was much more emphasis on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , kind of a bailout over the last 10 years of their irresponsibility as much as it was over the coronavirus and crumbs for everybody else that ’ s time limited and temporary .
So I think if you look at this , it ’ s a stark reminder of who matters in Washington and who doesn ’ t .
Jaisal Noor : And finally , this is obviously an election year .
The stakes are extremely high for the Democrats .
Now obviously , they control the House , so they have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ some members of the Democratic Party in Congress have been critical of this bailout .
Alexandria O. : What did the Senate majority fight for ?
One of the largest corporate bailouts with as few strings as possible in American history .
Shameful .
The greed of that fight is wrong for crumbs for our families .
And the option that we have is to either let them suffer with nothing or to allow this greed and billions of dollars , which will be leveraged into trillions of dollars to contribute to the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
There should be shame about what was fought for in this bill and the choices that we have to make .
Jaisal Noor : We know people like Ilhan Omar and other progressives have had their own proposals to go further .
Do you think that Democrats are doing enough right now to really help out working America ?
David Dayen : I don ’ t .
This is a bill that passed 96 nothing in the US Senate .
Bernie Sanders voted for it .
Elizabeth Warren voted for it .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ recorded vote and there was an attempt by only one member , Thomas Massie , who is a libertarian Republican to actually get a recorded vote and no one gave him a second , no Democrat , not Ilhan Omar , not AOC , not anyone .
This was just an institutional failure , I believe on the part of the Democrats .
They did get a little bit of relief for , relative to the initial bill that Mitch McConnell put out , but they really did not use their power .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ and saying , well , we need another bill when all the leverage is gone .
I mean , the corporate bailout was what was important to the Republicans and now that that ’ s actually out the door , what ’ s in it for Republicans to come back and give more relief to people ?
So I think that the Democrats misplayed their hand and I think it should cause some soul searching on the left about what kind of power really exists within the Progressive Movement ?
If every member @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with the largest no strings bailout in American history , I mean , what does that mean and what needs to be done to build more power on the left to ensure that these kinds of things don ’ t happen again ?
Jaisal Noor : It ’ s not always fair to compare politics in the US with Europe , but if you look at the thousands that many European countries are giving out , plus they ’ re , the fact they were way better prepared , many of them , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ much quicker , you really see that contrast there .
David Dayen , thank you so much for joining us .
We ’ ll link to all your reporting on this story at therealnews.com and congratulations on this great work .
Thank you .
David Dayen : Thank you very much for having me .
Jaisal Noor : And thank you for joining us at The Real News Network .

This is a rushed transcript. It will be updated
Jaisal Noor: Welcome to The Real News. I’m Jaisal Noor. The bank USAA says, it will stop seizing coronavirus stimulus checks from customers with debt and says it will refund all the money they’ve confiscated so far. That’s after the American Prospect broke the story titled, The Coronavirus Check is Coming. Your Bank Can Grab It. Regulators have given banks the green light to use stimulus funds to pay off debts that individuals owe them. Now joining us to discuss this is the author of that story, David Dayen, who is the executive editor of the American Prospect. Thank you so much for joining us.
David Dayen: Absolutely. Thanks for having me.
Jaisal Noor: So first of all, congratulations on this week you’ve had where, first of all, you broke this initial story that federal regulators basically had said banks can take that stimulus check if you have an outstanding debt. Something they didn’t allow everyone to do. You followed up with USAA. They resulted in changing their policy on this. So let’s start off by, if you can talk about how you got this tip that the federal regulators had made this move and sort of snuck it into this bailout package.
David Dayen: So a source passed me this audio of a conference call that was being held between the Treasury Department regulators and bank compliance officers, and they were talking about these checks. They’re known within the government as Economic Impact Payments or EIPs. They were talking about what kind of debt collection could be done on these EIPs.
There is the designation in the law, a federal benefit designation such that no public or private debt collectors can actually garnished those funds for their purposes. That includes Social Security payments, two months worth, I believe, veterans benefits, disability payments, things like that, that people need to survive on and to live on. Debt collectors can’t take those payments.
So the question was raised on this call, what about the EIPs? What about these $1,200 checks for most adults? Can those be used to offset bank debt or to for a private debt collector? It turns out those EIPs are designated as tax credits. That’s formally how they are looked at by the government. They are a tax credit that you’re getting early from next year’s taxes and because of that, they are eligible for private debt collection.
There was a provision in the CARES Act law that said that public agencies, state and federal agencies that collect debt, could not collect on these payments. However, that was not extended to private debt collectors or to banks. The Treasury Department has the opportunity under the law to write a regulation to flag those payments and say those can’t be used for this. But, what we found on this conference call is that Treasury was passing the buck.
The woman who said, who was talking about this said, “There is nothing in the law that precludes you,” banks, “from taking this action to offset any kind of debts that an individual has with these Economic Impact Payments.” And that was really seen as a green light for banks to use their own discretion and do whatever they want with these, with this money. What we subsequently found is that, that’s exactly what they did.
Jaisal Noor: And so, USAA mostly serves veterans and families of veterans, which makes it, it’s already horrible, but makes it even worse in a lot of people’s eyes.
David Dayen: Yeah. They serve veterans, military families. They have about 13 million members, one of the largest banks in the country. They were pretty systematically telling people, if you have a negative balance on your account, we’re going to use that money that’s coming in to offset that negative balance.
I talked to a woman whose husband served and was injured while serving, so he’s on disability. She was a daycare worker who lost her job in the coronavirus crisis. They have two young children. They were expected to get $3,400 from these payments. What happened was they had outstanding balances with USAA. They claim it’s fraud. USAA claims it was not fraud on their account and they owe several thousand dollars to them. They left the bank. They abandoned the account. This was a charged off account, which is an accounting term that means that USAA did not expect to recover any money from this ever again. And so, they were banking with a different bank.
But, the IRS uses whatever they had for somebody, a direct deposit that they did to give refunds out in the 2018 tax year and that happened to be this old USAA account. And so, the money went into the USAA account and USAA took all $3,400. Now, this is a couple who was expecting to use this for rent, for medicine, for a small child, to keep them surviving while this crisis continues and that’s true of many, many people.
The woman tried to protest it on the phone. She was told that you shouldn’t have gotten into debt in the first place. That was what the customer service rep told her there. I saw text messages where they, USAA, bluntly said, “This is our policy. We’re going to take this money if it’s available to us.” And they said this not just to this woman, but to multiple individuals. I saw a text to this effect.
And so, we broke the story and obviously there was a lot of public pressure around this, not just because of the veteran aspect, but just because the idea that you would take these payments that are supposed to be economic lifelines for people during a pandemic is appalling. Within a few hours, USAA succumbed to that pressure and they changed their policy and retroactively credited the accounts of all people, including this woman who is going to get that money wired to her.
Jaisal Noor: Now, have you heard from any other banks?
David Dayen: I have. So the big banks, that’s Wells Fargo, JP Morgan Chase, Bank of America and Citibank, they got out on front on this and said, they would pause for 30 days any collection on overdue balances, which essentially is a race against time. It gives people 30 days to get that $1,200 out of their account or otherwise, it could potentially be taken if they have a negative balance.
US Bank, I heard from a customer who said his money was garnished by US Bank because he had some past due overdraft charges. US Bank told me that they were trying to make whole all customers, but they said that they were canceling all overdue payments as of the passage of the CARES Act, which was March 27th. This customer had incurred these charges prior to March 27th and according to him, they were not taken off. So I’m still looking into whether US Bank is honoring what they said is their intent, which is to get all of these payments over to these individuals in full.
There is another bank called Radius Bank that someone sent me a message, a chat that they had with a customer service representative where that customer service rep said, “If you have a negative balance, we will take that from your account.”
There are something like 4,500 banks across the country. I haven’t talked to all of them, but it seems like one by one, it’s really at the discretion of the bank as to whether they’re going to use this emergency funds for payment on past debts.
Ultimately, the only real solution is for the Treasury Department at this point to write rules saying, you, these payments are protected and you need to retroactively credit anyone who you took money from out of this payment.
Jaisal Noor: So we know, again, as you mentioned, this bailout money, this $1,200 that’s been going to individuals and more for children and for families, that is really going to be a lifeline for people. There is at least 22 million people out of work, millions more are in dire economic straits. They’ve lost other income or if you hadn’t been able to go to work and support their families.
You’ve reported on this overall bailout and how and who it’s helping and if we’ve learned the lessons of the past in the previous financial bailout of 2008. It’s just beyond the pale because now you have the same people that put forth this inadequate bailout for working people and yet, and have given this unlimited something, you reported something like $6 trillion in total amount, and they’re the same ones that are calling for the economy to reopen because the economy is suffering, but they’re the same ones that haven’t done anything about it. Can you just talk more broadly where this country is right now and what can be done?
David Dayen: Yeah, I mean, I think what you’re getting at is the disproportionality of the response in the CARES Act. So you have these $1,200 one time payments, which are subject to potential garnishment by private debt collectors. You have a boost in unemployment. There is supposed to be a $600 weekly boost in unemployment, but state unemployment systems are absolutely buckling. People who have tried to make claims for unemployment going back a month still haven’t gotten through, so that’s a rickety part of the system.
You have these small business loans, but within a week they’re all cashed. They’re all out the door. It was $350 billion and that helped maybe 1.5 million small businesses and there are about 30 million small businesses in America, so that helped a very small fraction of those who are suffering. A piece in the Wall Street Journal in the beginning of April said that, “About half of all small businesses didn’t pay their rent in April,” so obviously not enough for what is needed. And it was very confusing as to who would get it and how they would get it.
You contrast all of that with the $500 billion dollars that’s appropriated in the bill, which the Federal Reserve can then take and leverage up to about $4.5 trillion dollars for the largest corporations in America with very few conditions. These are very low interest loans. And if you’re a good businessman, you know what to do with free money. Even if you have to pay it back, you’re going to be making a lot of money, especially when it looks like we’re going to see so many small businesses go under, which we’ll just concentrate power within these large businesses, which will be dominant in many sectors of the economy. So who gets nursed back to health, who gets the proportionality of a response and who gets the concierge service, right?
So you had these rickety systems helping individuals and small businesses and the Federal Reserve just handing out money to anyone who wants it through these lending programs that they’ve set up for really large corporations. So it certainly shows you that where you stand in America depends on who’s serving you and how much power and wealth and importance and influence you have.
I mean, in terms of reopening the economy, you really can only do that if we have the proper public health measures in place, the proper testing and things like that. There was almost no money in this pandemic response bill to actually respond to the pandemic to actually bulk up testing and surge it, so that you actually could reopen the country. It seems like there was much more emphasis on a no strings bailout for giant corporations, kind of a bailout over the last 10 years of their irresponsibility as much as it was over the coronavirus and crumbs for everybody else that’s time limited and temporary. So I think if you look at this, it’s a stark reminder of who matters in Washington and who doesn’t.
Jaisal Noor: And finally, this is obviously an election year. The stakes are extremely high for the Democrats. Now obviously, they control the House, so they have some negotiating power. We know that some members of the Democratic Party in Congress have been critical of this bailout.
Alexandria O.: What did the Senate majority fight for? One of the largest corporate bailouts with as few strings as possible in American history. Shameful. The greed of that fight is wrong for crumbs for our families. And the option that we have is to either let them suffer with nothing or to allow this greed and billions of dollars, which will be leveraged into trillions of dollars to contribute to the largest income inequality gap in our future. There should be shame about what was fought for in this bill and the choices that we have to make.
Jaisal Noor: We know people like Ilhan Omar and other progressives have had their own proposals to go further. Do you think that Democrats are doing enough right now to really help out working America?
David Dayen: I don’t. This is a bill that passed 96 nothing in the US Senate. Bernie Sanders voted for it. Elizabeth Warren voted for it. In the House, there was no recorded vote and there was an attempt by only one member, Thomas Massie, who is a libertarian Republican to actually get a recorded vote and no one gave him a second, no Democrat, not Ilhan Omar, not AOC, not anyone. This was just an institutional failure, I believe on the part of the Democrats. They did get a little bit of relief for, relative to the initial bill that Mitch McConnell put out, but they really did not use their power.
Now, they’re coming back and saying, well, we need another bill when all the leverage is gone. I mean, the corporate bailout was what was important to the Republicans and now that that’s actually out the door, what’s in it for Republicans to come back and give more relief to people? So I think that the Democrats misplayed their hand and I think it should cause some soul searching on the left about what kind of power really exists within the Progressive Movement? If every member who purports to be progressive went along with the largest no strings bailout in American history, I mean, what does that mean and what needs to be done to build more power on the left to ensure that these kinds of things don’t happen again?
Jaisal Noor: It’s not always fair to compare politics in the US with Europe, but if you look at the thousands that many European countries are giving out, plus they’re, the fact they were way better prepared, many of them, to contain this and to enact it much quicker, you really see that contrast there.
David Dayen, thank you so much for joining us. We’ll link to all your reporting on this story at therealnews.com and congratulations on this great work. Thank you.
David Dayen: Thank you very much for having me.
Jaisal Noor: And thank you for joining us at The Real News Network.