therealnews--2020-06-17--Reimagining Public Safety In One Of America’s Deadliest Cities

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
Jaisal Noor : I ’ m Jaisal Noor for The Real News .
I ’ m with Brandon Scott .
He is the Baltimore City Council president , recently declared winner of the June 2nd Democratic Primary for mayor of Baltimore , and since Baltimore ’ s overwhelmingly Democratic , widely expected to be the next mayor of Baltimore City .
Thank you so much for joining us .
Brandon Scott : Thank you .
Thanks for having me .
Jaisal Noor : You are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ will become mayor in a city with so much promise , but that faces so many issues including a declining population , a high crime rate , former mayors who have faced corruption scandals , a police force that ’ s been enamored with corruption and abuse allegations .
It seems like voters chose you , especially last minute voters chose you as someone that could overcome these challenges , and bring a new vision to city hall , and Baltimore .
How will you bring this change ?
Brandon Scott : Well @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ re right the voters chose me for that reason because when voters chose me they chose someone who lived through all of that , who survived all of that , who survived living in a city that had 300 homicides every year , who survived having elected officials who forgot about the neighborhood that I grew up in , did not invest in our schools , allowed our police department to have some individuals who were doing the opposite of what their job is supposed to be , and some of those @ @ @ @ @ @ @ who better to actually right that ship ?
Who better to right those wrongs than someone who lived at the bottom of those wrongs , right ?
And I think that what we ’ re going to have to do it ’ s going to be tough .
We know that my term in there probably won ’ t be pretty , and I said that often throughout the campaign telling folks that what I am not afraid to do is the right thing over the popular one , making the deep changes @ @ @ @ @ @ @ structure of how we operate our city government from top to bottom , putting in better systems , better policies , better practices , better people so that we can have a government that ’ s functioning in the best interest of all Baltimoreans and not some .
Jaisal Noor : So the recent killing of George Floyd by police has sparked now three weeks of nationwide protests that have brought real change in many cities , like Minneapolis , Los Angeles , New York .
Protesters in Baltimore wanted the police budget @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s going to be a longterm goal .
You identified , you said tens of millions of dollars that could be cut in the police budget in upcoming years , but the city council only cut 22 million dollars from the police budget .
What do you tell the people that wanted more cut from the police ?
Brandon Scott : What I would tell you is that first things first .
This I ’ ve always said , right ?
Before George Floyd , they can pull a tape , and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ systematically over time we ’ re going to have to start to reduce the city ’ s dependence on BPD , but we have to do that in a way that ’ s responsible , and when you even look , and the individuals , look at Los Angeles for example , if you actually talk to elected officials and people there about what they ’ re proposing they will tell you that they have no idea how they ’ re going to do it , right ?
It ’ s about making @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be responsible , that we will do that over time , that we will do it in a way that honors that we the city council asked for a consent decree , and we have to abide by that , and meet those regulations that we also understand that we have to fund the current commission funding that are coming , and that we also have a city that is still grappling with violent crime And what we ’ re going to do , this is why Jaisal that I asked the sitting @ @ @ @ @ @ @ group of people to study how we can actually do that responsibly over the next term so that when the new mayor and council take office in December that they have that right in front of them .
It ’ s not going to be an easy thing .
It ’ s going to be tough decisions that have to be made .
We ’ re going to have to make sure that we ’ re abiding by rules and regulations including contracts , and things that the city have already entered into @ @ @ @ @ @ @ breaking , but we will do it , and we will do it responsibly over time so that we can reimagine public safety in Baltimore , and as I was the first elected official to say that public safety will no longer simply be about policing , but will be a public health issue , and we will attack it from every way , and this is just the beginning of that .
This is the beginning .
And I will also point out that that 22 million was in addition to the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Jaisal Noor : And so , talk about what programs you want to fund instead , we know that Safe Streets , which has been credited with reducing homicides by 50 % or higher .
Two sources told me they still face a budget deficit of $ 225,000 due to a veto by Governor Larry Hogan .
What is your plan ?
Will you increase funding to programs like Safe Streets ?
Brandon Scott : Well , listen , we know that Safe Streets is a program that I favor , right @ @ @ @ @ @ @ saved it from being eliminated it by former mayor Pugh , and we ’ re not only going to build to expand it , but help their program grow , to grow to not just being interceding in violence , but providing opportunities for those people to change their life around .
We know that we have to invest in how we deal with trauma .
We should be sending trauma clinicians out to the scene of these homicides , and shootings , to deal with , with those families .
We have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ children and families , so when you think about family strength and training programs , dealing with our young people , expressly those at a younger age , identifying who are the most likely to be the victims , or perpetrator , of violence .
We know that the data is there .
We also have to build in our health department .
We know the most important policy thing facing the state of Maryland is funding our schools through the current commission , and we will meet our half , and we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , job training , workforce development , true workforce development , true reentry , not waiting for those individuals to come home , but going into the prisons and working with them .
We have to reimagine everything that the city does as we move forward .
Jaisal Noor : So the NYPD just announced the disbanding of their plain clothes unit .
One report found that unit was responsible for 30 % of fatal shootings in the last two decades .
Do you think that ’ s something as mayor you would @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : Well , listen , I ’ m open to change , right ?
And what I would have to do once becoming mayor is actually having a conversation with the police commissioner , looking at the data , I ’ m a data guy , to see how we should move forward , but also I will also point out remember that I ’ m someone who ’ s pushing us to think about drug policy in a different way , right ?
Who said in my crime plan that we have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ drugs , that we need to legalize marijuana in Maryland , because we have to reimagine what we ’ re doing , and even to how we ’ re doing drug treatment .
I ’ m the person that ’ s pushing overdose prevention sites and a harm reduction approach .
Here in Baltimore , all of that has to be considered , and reconsidered as a package , and not just one off thing .
A change in one agency ’ s approach is not changing the system .
We have to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : So speaking of the drug war there was a proposal to cut funding for the BPD ’ s drug enforcement .
I understand you voted against that .
Can you talk to me about why ?
Brandon Scott : Yeah .
You ’ re not going to eliminate the war on drugs by eliminating one place of the budget .
Again , this is a comprehensive thing that needs to be done , right ?
Stopping one unit from doing it is not stopping the entire police department from doing it , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ said , and I said to them yesterday , and I said at that hearing we have to again focus on how we ’ re going to change that kind of policy from top to bottom , and also understand what some citizens in Baltimore are living in due to what ’ s going on with drugs .
That ’ s why I keep saying to everyone reimagine .
I think that Mayor Schmoke was way ahead of his time .
Re-imagining how we deal with drug policy from top to bottom is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ something that I believe we should take one piece of the pie .
We have to take the whole pie .
Jaisal Noor : So before the election we did a whole interview on your proposals for reforming- Brandon Scott : That was before .
Jaisal Noor : -the city government .
We talked extensively on that , but I wanted to ask you specifically about an audit of the Baltimore Police Department .
We know that hasn ’ t happened in years on other agencies .
Is that something that you will @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , actually , yes , and it ’ s going to happen .
So this past session I helped by testifying in support of a piece of legislation by my good friend Senator Cory McCray that ’ s going to make the state audit , BPD , because it is a state agency , and it ’ s my understanding that the first one will begin in July 1st , so not only do I support it , I supported it before anyone knew what was happening .
I did that without people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to audit it , and I ’ m glad that the senator and other folks have stepped up to make sure as well , and we ’ ll push to have another one done at the city level .
Jaisal Noor : And I wanted to ask you , you were talking about economic development , and I wanted to ask you a couple questions about that .
So Baltimore has a thriving worker cooperative scene .
Many other cities are directly investing in their cooperatives .
From my understanding Baltimore has not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ own worker cooperatives right here in Baltimore .
Is that something you will to commit to ?
Brandon Scott : Absolutely .
It ’ s actually in my economic development plan .
We know that we have to grow worker cooperatives .
I actually talked about in this budget too thinking about how we can grow other evolving economies here , doing what we did for the Emerging Technology Center , we should do that for the made in Baltimore worker ’ s space kind of area .
Those are the kind of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ forward .
Jaisal Noor : So critics have said Baltimore City relies too much on an economic development plan that subsidizes wealthy developers at the cost of working people in the city .
They point to deals like Port Covington , which critics say was rushed through four years ago , because backers said it had to be done fast .
Do you think this was a mistake ?
And do you think that the city should reconsider its commitment to this ?
Because there ’ s a vote happening Wednesday .
We @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the details yet , but taxpayers could be on the hook for tens of millions of dollars as part of this deal .
Brandon Scott : Well , I think , listen , I don ’ t do revisionist history , right ?
I don ’ t like to go back and blame people .
I know that there were a mix of opinions .
You had community organizations like Build , who are well-respected in the city , very happy with the deal .
You have other folks that were not , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ m going to do is make a decision based off of the information that I ’ m going to be given , and actually right after your interview today we ’ re going to have a briefing about that moving forward .
But regardless of what happens what I ’ m going to do as mayor is hold them accountable , and make sure that every single dollar that the city gives them , or doesn ’ t give them , that they ’ re going to be accountable for that , right @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we ’ re going to have .
We know that what ’ s happening with the system and the Board of Estimates there ’ s nothing I can do to stop this from happening at this point .
It ’ s about how we can hold people accountable .
It ’ s about how we make sure that they live up to the things that are in that deal , that they live up to the hiring requirements that they have , the local hiring requirements , that they live up to all @ @ @ @ @ @ @ forward the things that I will be in control of as the mayor will be done in a more equitable way .
It ’ ll be done in a way of equity that we are investing in neighborhoods that have been forgotten in Baltimore , right ?
That ’ s where we should be seeing the incentives go .
That ’ s how we ’ re going to operate , and that ’ s how we ’ re going to govern under Brandon Scott .
Jaisal Noor : And finally , last question @ @ @ @ @ @ @ What ’ s your message to people that have lost faith in the government doing anything positive for them , that for decades the government policy has been used as a weapon against them instead of uplifting them , or working with them ?
What do you say to them today ?
Brandon Scott : That that ’ s going to change , right ?
That they don ’ t have to believe me , but they can watch and see , right ?
Because we ’ re going to start to change @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s why I passed that equity law , and now I ’ m going to be very excited to actually implement it , and it ’ s going to make a lot of people upset who are used to the status quo , and what I ’ m going to need from them is I ’ m going to need them to stand with me when I change it , when I break down the status quo , when I say , no , we ’ re going to invest in these @ @ @ @ @ @ @ going to say , “ No .
We shouldn ’ t. ” I ’ m going to need them to stand up by my side and say this is the right thing to do because we ’ ve been forgotten for far too long .
Jaisal Noor : All right .
Council President Brandon Scott .
Thank you so much for joining us .

Mayoral Democratic primary winner Brandon Scott discusses calls to cut the Baltimore police budget to fund social programs, his approach to the drug war, and economic development in a city that’s long subsidized corporations at the expense of taxpayers.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Jaisal Noor: I’m Jaisal Noor for The Real News. I’m with Brandon Scott. He is the Baltimore City Council president, recently declared winner of the June 2nd Democratic Primary for mayor of Baltimore, and since Baltimore’s overwhelmingly Democratic, widely expected to be the next mayor of Baltimore City. Thank you so much for joining us.
Brandon Scott: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Jaisal Noor: You are 36-years-old, if you are elected you will become mayor in a city with so much promise, but that faces so many issues including a declining population, a high crime rate, former mayors who have faced corruption scandals, a police force that’s been enamored with corruption and abuse allegations. It seems like voters chose you, especially last minute voters chose you as someone that could overcome these challenges, and bring a new vision to city hall, and Baltimore.
How will you bring this change?
Brandon Scott: Well, listen. I think that you’re right the voters chose me for that reason because when voters chose me they chose someone who lived through all of that, who survived all of that, who survived living in a city that had 300 homicides every year, who survived having elected officials who forgot about the neighborhood that I grew up in, did not invest in our schools, allowed our police department to have some individuals who were doing the opposite of what their job is supposed to be, and some of those individuals end up being criminals.
And who better to actually right that ship? Who better to right those wrongs than someone who lived at the bottom of those wrongs, right? And I think that what we’re going to have to do it’s going to be tough. We know that my term in there probably won’t be pretty, and I said that often throughout the campaign telling folks that what I am not afraid to do is the right thing over the popular one, making the deep changes they have to have, changing the structure of how we operate our city government from top to bottom, putting in better systems, better policies, better practices, better people so that we can have a government that’s functioning in the best interest of all Baltimoreans and not some.
Jaisal Noor: So the recent killing of George Floyd by police has sparked now three weeks of nationwide protests that have brought real change in many cities, like Minneapolis, Los Angeles, New York. Protesters in Baltimore wanted the police budget cut by half. They acknowledge that’s going to be a longterm goal. You identified, you said tens of millions of dollars that could be cut in the police budget in upcoming years, but the city council only cut 22 million dollars from the police budget. What do you tell the people that wanted more cut from the police?
Brandon Scott: What I would tell you is that first things first. This I’ve always said, right? Before George Floyd, they can pull a tape, and the budget last year I said that systematically over time we’re going to have to start to reduce the city’s dependence on BPD, but we have to do that in a way that’s responsible, and when you even look, and the individuals, look at Los Angeles for example, if you actually talk to elected officials and people there about what they’re proposing they will tell you that they have no idea how they’re going to do it, right?
It’s about making sure that we’re going to be responsible, that we will do that over time, that we will do it in a way that honors that we the city council asked for a consent decree, and we have to abide by that, and meet those regulations that we also understand that we have to fund the current commission funding that are coming, and that we also have a city that is still grappling with violent crime
And what we’re going to do, this is why Jaisal that I asked the sitting mayor to join me in appointing a group of people to study how we can actually do that responsibly over the next term so that when the new mayor and council take office in December that they have that right in front of them. It’s not going to be an easy thing. It’s going to be tough decisions that have to be made. We’re going to have to make sure that we’re abiding by rules and regulations including contracts, and things that the city have already entered into that we will be very weary about breaking, but we will do it, and we will do it responsibly over time so that we can reimagine public safety in Baltimore, and as I was the first elected official to say that public safety will no longer simply be about policing, but will be a public health issue, and we will attack it from every way, and this is just the beginning of that.
This is the beginning. And I will also point out that that 22 million was in addition to the 17 that the police commissioner cut himself.
Jaisal Noor: And so, talk about what programs you want to fund instead, we know that Safe Streets, which has been credited with reducing homicides by 50% or higher. Two sources told me they still face a budget deficit of $225,000 due to a veto by Governor Larry Hogan. What is your plan? Will you increase funding to programs like Safe Streets?
Brandon Scott: Well, listen, we know that Safe Streets is a program that I favor, right? I’m the person that saved it from being eliminated it by former mayor Pugh, and we’re not only going to build to expand it, but help their program grow, to grow to not just being interceding in violence, but providing opportunities for those people to change their life around. We know that we have to invest in how we deal with trauma. We should be sending trauma clinicians out to the scene of these homicides, and shootings, to deal with, with those families.
We have to do deep invest into building better children and families, so when you think about family strength and training programs, dealing with our young people, expressly those at a younger age, identifying who are the most likely to be the victims, or perpetrator, of violence. We know that the data is there. We also have to build in our health department. We know the most important policy thing facing the state of Maryland is funding our schools through the current commission, and we will meet our half, and we will also expand things like recreational parks, job training, workforce development, true workforce development, true reentry, not waiting for those individuals to come home, but going into the prisons and working with them.
We have to reimagine everything that the city does as we move forward.
Jaisal Noor: So the NYPD just announced the disbanding of their plain clothes unit. One report found that unit was responsible for 30% of fatal shootings in the last two decades. Do you think that’s something as mayor you would consider doing in Baltimore?
Brandon Scott: Well, listen, I’m open to change, right? And what I would have to do once becoming mayor is actually having a conversation with the police commissioner, looking at the data, I’m a data guy, to see how we should move forward, but also I will also point out remember that I’m someone who’s pushing us to think about drug policy in a different way, right? Who said in my crime plan that we have to go to decriminalizing other areas of drugs, that we need to legalize marijuana in Maryland, because we have to reimagine what we’re doing, and even to how we’re doing drug treatment.
I’m the person that’s pushing overdose prevention sites and a harm reduction approach. Here in Baltimore, all of that has to be considered, and reconsidered as a package, and not just one off thing. A change in one agency’s approach is not changing the system. We have to change this total system.
Jaisal Noor: So speaking of the drug war there was a proposal to cut funding for the BPD’s drug enforcement. I understand you voted against that. Can you talk to me about why?
Brandon Scott: Yeah. You’re not going to eliminate the war on drugs by eliminating one place of the budget. Again, this is a comprehensive thing that needs to be done, right? Stopping one unit from doing it is not stopping the entire police department from doing it, and I understand what my colleagues have said, and I said to them yesterday, and I said at that hearing we have to again focus on how we’re going to change that kind of policy from top to bottom, and also understand what some citizens in Baltimore are living in due to what’s going on with drugs.
That’s why I keep saying to everyone reimagine. I think that Mayor Schmoke was way ahead of his time. Re-imagining how we deal with drug policy from top to bottom is the only way. That is not something that I believe we should take one piece of the pie. We have to take the whole pie.
Jaisal Noor: So before the election we did a whole interview on your proposals for reforming-
Brandon Scott: That was before.
Jaisal Noor: -the city government. We talked extensively on that, but I wanted to ask you specifically about an audit of the Baltimore Police Department. We know that hasn’t happened in years on other agencies. Is that something that you will commit to?
Brandon Scott: Well, actually, yes, and it’s going to happen. So this past session I helped by testifying in support of a piece of legislation by my good friend Senator Cory McCray that’s going to make the state audit, BPD, because it is a state agency, and it’s my understanding that the first one will begin in July 1st, so not only do I support it, I supported it before anyone knew what was happening. I did that without people saying it, but we absolutely have to audit it, and I’m glad that the senator and other folks have stepped up to make sure as well, and we’ll push to have another one done at the city level.
Jaisal Noor: And I wanted to ask you, you were talking about economic development, and I wanted to ask you a couple questions about that. So Baltimore has a thriving worker cooperative scene. Many other cities are directly investing in their cooperatives. From my understanding Baltimore has not spent a single dollar to uplift their own worker cooperatives right here in Baltimore. Is that something you will to commit to?
Brandon Scott: Absolutely. It’s actually in my economic development plan. We know that we have to grow worker cooperatives. I actually talked about in this budget too thinking about how we can grow other evolving economies here, doing what we did for the Emerging Technology Center, we should do that for the made in Baltimore worker’s space kind of area. Those are the kind of things that we have to do moving forward.
Jaisal Noor: So critics have said Baltimore City relies too much on an economic development plan that subsidizes wealthy developers at the cost of working people in the city. They point to deals like Port Covington, which critics say was rushed through four years ago, because backers said it had to be done fast. Do you think this was a mistake? And do you think that the city should reconsider its commitment to this? Because there’s a vote happening Wednesday. We know we don’t know all the details yet, but taxpayers could be on the hook for tens of millions of dollars as part of this deal.
Brandon Scott: Well, I think, listen, I don’t do revisionist history, right? I don’t like to go back and blame people. I know that there were a mix of opinions. You had community organizations like Build, who are well-respected in the city, very happy with the deal. You have other folks that were not, and I think that what I’m going to do is make a decision based off of the information that I’m going to be given, and actually right after your interview today we’re going to have a briefing about that moving forward.
But regardless of what happens what I’m going to do as mayor is hold them accountable, and make sure that every single dollar that the city gives them, or doesn’t give them, that they’re going to be accountable for that, right? That’s the system that we’re going to have. We know that what’s happening with the system and the Board of Estimates there’s nothing I can do to stop this from happening at this point.
It’s about how we can hold people accountable. It’s about how we make sure that they live up to the things that are in that deal, that they live up to the hiring requirements that they have, the local hiring requirements, that they live up to all the other things, and then moving forward the things that I will be in control of as the mayor will be done in a more equitable way. It’ll be done in a way of equity that we are investing in neighborhoods that have been forgotten in Baltimore, right?
That’s where we should be seeing the incentives go. That’s how we’re going to operate, and that’s how we’re going to govern under Brandon Scott.
Jaisal Noor: And finally, last question. You talked about forgotten neighborhoods. What’s your message to people that have lost faith in the government doing anything positive for them, that for decades the government policy has been used as a weapon against them instead of uplifting them, or working with them? What do you say to them today?
Brandon Scott: That that’s going to change, right? That they don’t have to believe me, but they can watch and see, right? Because we’re going to start to change the way the city operates. That’s why I passed that equity law, and now I’m going to be very excited to actually implement it, and it’s going to make a lot of people upset who are used to the status quo, and what I’m going to need from them is I’m going to need them to stand with me when I change it, when I break down the status quo, when I say, no, we’re going to invest in these neighborhoods.
There are people who are going to say, “No. We shouldn’t.” I’m going to need them to stand up by my side and say this is the right thing to do because we’ve been forgotten for far too long.
Jaisal Noor: All right. Council President Brandon Scott. Thank you so much for joining us.
Brandon Scott: Thank you.
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therealnews--2020-06-18--Tearing Down White Supremacist Monuments Isn’t Empty Symbolism

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
Jacqueline Luqm… : This is Jacqueline Luqman with The Real News Network .
As the national protests against racist police terrorism grew across this country , and eventually spread to countries around the world , the spontaneous nature of these organic uprisings was obviously connected to the spark that was the public lynching of George Floyd in Minneapolis , but they were largely seen as specifically about police violence against Black and other marginalized people , but otherwise unfocused .
But , as the monuments @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the US and other statues of heralded figures throughout history were targeted around the world , it became clear that these national and global protests were about more than just solidarity with seeking justice for George Floyd , and even just with Black Lives Matter .
I ’ m so pleased to be joined by Dr. Gerald Horne , to talk about the significance of some of the statues that have been removed , whether by protestors or by state officials and what this means for the direction and the character of the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Dr. Horne holds the John J. and Rebecca Moores Chair of History and African American Studies at the University of Houston .
He ’ s the author of many excellent books , and the upcoming book , The Dawning of the Apocalypse : The Roots of Slavery , White Supremacy , Settler Colonialism , and Capitalism in the Long Sixteenth Century .
Dr. Horne , thank you so much for joining me .
Dr. Gerald Horn… : Thank you for inviting me , and I ’ m happy to report that that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Jacqueline Luqm… : Excellent .
Excellent .
Absolutely looking forward to another great read .
So , Dr. Horne , the statues of the Confederate generals in several states in the US have been a target for removal for years .
And one of the main ones , the massive statue of General Lee in Richmond , Virginia on Monument Avenue is slated to be removed , although a judge has issued an injunction against that removal by Richmond mayor , Levar Stoney .
Then we have a particularly poignant and , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Columbus ’ s statue in Minneapolis that was carried out by members of the American Indian movement .
Watching this , Dr. Horne , I felt like this was pulling down the false narrative erected about 1492 .
But , could you tell us why this removal is significant , historically , for this country and for the people who removed it ?
Dr. Gerald Horn… : Well , first of all , the whitewashing of where colonialism in some ways begins with the false narrative constructed around Christopher Columbus and his son @ @ @ @ @ @ @ island we call Hispaniola , which now contains both Haiti and the Dominican Republic , and also was involved in slave trading of Africans .
In fact , some of the early uprisings by enslaved Africans were against the misrule and the terrorist rule of the Columbus family , and certainly , to erect a statue to a genocidaire , a man who helped to kick off centuries of genocide , it does not speak well , I ’ m afraid to say , for the United States of America .
And it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ quite frankly , concerning that such statues have pockmarked the landscape for such a long period of time .
Jacqueline Luqm… : And then we have Governor Andrew Cuomo of New York defending the statue of Christopher Columbus in New York City as a symbol of Italian Americans ’ contribution to New York .
Now , what are the contradictions in Cuomo ’ s statement and Columbus ’ s statue being a symbol for Italian Americans , especially in this moment ?
Dr. Gerald Horn… : Well , with all due respect to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a curious term that , I might add , I hope and I think that if Italian Americans are looking for symbols of heroism , they might as well , if they ’ re going to uplift Christopher Columbus , they might as well uplift Lucky Luciano , and Vito Genovese , and Al Capone , and Frank Costello , and leaders of organized crime .
Because those leaders of organized crime , they pale into insignificance when it comes to their misdeeds and their transgressions when compared to a genocidaire like Christopher @ @ @ @ @ @ @ m disappointed at Governor Cuomo because the mainstream press , the corporate media has misled us to believe that , somehow , he is a thoughtful politician .
But , alas , that statement that you ’ ve just cited helps to belie that kind of analysis .
Jacqueline Luqm… : It is incredibly disappointing , but it ’ s also revealing how the media does prop up these kinds of statements from who they indicate is the latest liberal darling , I suppose .
And that is certainly what they ’ re @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , in regard to the narrative around Christopher Columbus and the continued deification of this man in the Italian American community .
And that calls into question a few other statues , internationally , that have been the focus of renewed attention because there are calls to remove the statue of Cecil Rhodes from Oxford University in the UK .
And that ’ s getting a lot of resistance from a lot of people in British society .
Why would people want to remove the statue of Cecil Rhodes , and what significance @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that we might not be aware of , Dr. Horne ?
Dr. Gerald Horn… : Well , Cecil Rhodes made a major fortune through the exploitation of the resources of Africa and the cheap labor of Africans .
You may recall that the country now known as Zimbabwe was once known as Rhodesia or Southern Rhodesia , named after Mr. Rhodes .
You may know that the country now known as Zambia was once known as Northern Rhodesia , named after Cecil Rhodes .
You may know that Cecil Rhodes was also quite @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and , in fact , lived the number of years in South Africa and , of course , his fortune was bequeathed in part to create the so-called Rhodes Scholarship which , I ’ m afraid to say , has ensnared a number of US nationals and a number of US citizens who ’ ve gone on to study at Oxford University at the behest of , and as a result of , the shameless exploitation of Africa , and its resources , and its people .
Now , fortunately at Oxford University @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a Rhodes Must Fall movement .
And , indeed , in the Financial Times of London just today , believe it or not , there ’ s an editorial or op-ed piece endorsing this idea that the statue of Cecil Rhodes must fall because I would like to think that we can do better than this .
We can do better than honoring men known for their racism , their naked white supremacy , and their shameless and crude exploitation of their fellow human beings .
Jacqueline Luqm… : Now , this next @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this next question about the next statue that is being called to be removed from a university in Accra , Ghana .
And this is a statue of Mahatma Gandhi .
Now , people are very confused about why anybody would want to remove a statue honoring the man who Dr. Martin Luther King , Jr. indicated was responsible for part of his belief in non-violent protest .
What is the significance of the problem of Gandhi and his relationship to Africans , in particular , that would lead to people wanting to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Ghana ?
Dr. Gerald Horn… : Well , I ’ m afraid to say , and pardon the expression , that there ’ s a dark side to MK Gandhi .
That is to say , that before he attained prominence in India and in South Asia , more generally , he had spent a number of years in South Africa .
And I ’ m afraid to say that Mr. Gandhi did not distinguish himself with regard to his solicitude to the indigenous African population .
And , in fact , you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , in some ways , he was trying to cut a deal with European minority on behalf of the South Asian minority on the Indian Ocean coast of South Africa itself .
And I think that that helps to undergird the movement in Accra .
And keep in mind that a number of nationals of South Asia , particularly I would say , of the Sikh minority in South Asia , Sikhism , as you know , is the sixth-largest religion in the world , they would heartily endorse the removal of this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ him in some ways as being a lineal ancestor of Prime Minister Modi in New Delhi who , as you know , is a kind of Hindu chauvinist and whose misrule and maladministration of India is now bringing that country into sharp conflict with its neighbor , China , on behalf of US imperialism .
So , I think that these movements that we ’ re addressing should be applauded , the leaders should be congratulated because it suggests that our ideology and our ideas are not static , that we seek to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not prisoners of the past .
Jacqueline Luqm… : Mm-hmm ( affirmative ) I know that people watching this when they learn about this dark side of Gandhi that you just told us , people will probably ask , “ How did Dr. King not know this ?
” So , how do you think Dr. Martin Luther King would not know about this dark history of someone who he championed as a sort of an idol of his own ?
Dr. Gerald Horn… : Well , as I ’ m sure you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ nations construct fantasies and construct a false narratives about their heroes , and their heroines , and their history .
I mean , look at the United States of America .
Nikole Hannah-Jones just won a Pulitzer Prize in the New York Times for basically telling the truth .
That is to say , that when the settlers , led by real estate speculator number one , George Washington , revolted against British rule in 1776 , they were driven in no small measure by the desire to preserve slavery , enslavement of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ immaculate conception myth of the founding of the United States still holds true .
And if you look at the scurrilous attacks on Nikole Hannah-Jones , despite her winning the Pulitzer , you ’ ll understand why many are rather reluctant to tamper with these sacred myths that , I ’ m afraid to say , oftentimes substitute for accurate history .
And so , with regard to Dr. King , I ’ m afraid to say , I never had a conversation with him about this , but I speculate that he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ folks read .
But I dare say , that a man who was obviously able to grow intellectually and politically , that if he were around in 2020 , I ’ m sure he would like to revise his initial thoughts about MK Gandhi .
Jacqueline Luqm… : And certainly because we are still fighting the system of white supremacy that crafted that narrative .
It ’ s that same system that has made it true that Dr. King is not alive today to speak to the very thing that you just said @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that needs to be said in this moment right now .
Now , Dr. Horne , the next issue , this particular statue , this I think is one of the most significant out of all the monuments that are slated to be removed or have been removed in this moment .
Because for me , I think it represents a part of the history of African people under colonization that is so often ignored and it ’ s treated as if it never even happened , and so it ultimately didn ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the statue of King Leopold in Belgium caused me to catch my breath , actually .
I didn ’ t think it would ever happen .
What does the statue to this particular man mean in regard to African people , not just in Africa , but around the world ?
Dr. Gerald Horn… : Well , I just used the term genocidaire to describe Christopher Columbus .
I would have to think of a new word to describe King Leopold because he makes Christopher Columbus seem like a piker by comparison .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ called the Belgian Congo in the late 19th century and the early part of the 20th century , it ’ s estimated that approximately 10 million Africans perished as a result of the forced labor regime that he presided over , which forced these Africans to work under the gun in order to create wealth for this small kingdom in Western Europe .
And , not only that , but this does not even take into account the Africans who had their hands cut off , or their limbs cut off , or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , what happened under King Leopold is shameful .
And , once again , what ’ s staggering and stunning is not that the statues to him in Belgium are belatedly coming down , the question is really , what took so long ?
It does not speak well , I ’ m afraid to say , for the current rulers in Brussels .
And , by the way , it does not speak well for the North Atlantic Treaty Organization , which is led by the United States , but it headquartered @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that they did not lead a movement to remove these statues .
It does not speak well for the European Union , which is headquartered in Brussels , that they did not lead a movement to remove these statues .
I think that a moral stain basically rests upon , not only the rulers or the misrulers of Belgium but also NATO and the European Union , as well .
Jacqueline Luqm… : So , Dr. Horne , I mean , we just touched on a few of the significant statues that are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we look at these actions across the country and around the world where protestors are focusing their energies , some of their energies on removing these statues , what are people really focusing on here ?
Because the argument is always , well , these are just statues , they ’ re just symbols .
That ’ s the argument in one camp .
Then , of course , the other argument in the other camp that we hear in the United States , especially around the statues of Confederate generals , is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you ’ re erasing history , which I think is ridiculous , but that ’ s one of the arguments .
But this is obviously something more than just solidarity with George Floyd , but it is connected .
So , can you help us understand how the targeting of these statues , these monuments , these symbols being removed are related to what happened to George Floyd , but it ’ s also bigger than what happened to just him ?
Dr. Gerald Horn… : Well , particularly the Confederate statues , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , the statues to Robert E. Lee , the statues to these figures , these traitors like Jefferson Davis , the president of the so-called Confederate States of America , they provide psychological sustenance and succor to white supremacists .
They help to reinforce the idea that white supremacy should be normative , that it should not be seen as an outlaw ideology that should be cast into the dustbin of history , but it should be seen as a living organism deserving and meriting respect .
And therefore , when you watch @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on camera , you can not separate that from the defense of white supremacy because George Floyd was lynched , not least because of ideology of white supremacy basically suggested that people of African descent were not worthy of living and are not worthy of living .
That is the ultimate expression , I ’ m afraid to say , of white supremacy .
And so , when we have these attacks on statues , you have to put this in larger context of a multi-front offensive against white supremacy .
The multi-front @ @ @ @ @ @ @ actor , Viola Davis , reprimanding and rebuking the theater community for its white supremacy .
The offensive against white supremacy also includes the pressure on Albany to rewrite the laws concerning the ability of the police to use offensive methods like chokeholds , for example .
The offensive against white supremacy is a multi-front offensive , and we should not downplay or at all denigrate the effort to take down these statues , which are psychological sustenance to the most odious of white supremacists .
Jacqueline Luqm… : And , in your @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I have to ask you this because you study , teach , and document uprisings and rebellions throughout history .
Where do you see this global movement going ?
Are we at a moment that is pivotal for the history of humankind , as pivotal as some of the previous uprisings , and rebellions , and revolutions that you have documented , studied , and documented because I feel like it is , but I ’ m wondering how you feel about this moment right now ?
Dr. Gerald Horn… : I would @ @ @ @ @ @ @ certainly , when we just heard that the government of Burkina Faso in central-western Africa , on behalf of the African Union , is tabling a motion at the United Nations Human Rights Council to bring up the United States on charges of systemic racism against Black people .
This is extraordinary .
This is something that ’ s unique .
And in light of it taking place within the context of demonstrations in Auckland , New Zealand , and Sydney , Australia , and London , England , and Berlin , Germany @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of revulsion towards either settler colonialism or colonialism itself , we are in the midst of a major movement .
Now , where will this movement eventuate ?
After two to three weeks , I think it ’ s too soon to say , particularly , in the United States of America where the popularity rating of the oaf the Oval Office still remains in the forties , where voter suppression is still a reality as signified by what happened in the primaries in the state of Georgia just a few days ago @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we must keep the pressure on because this is no time to rest on our laurels .
This is a time to motor ahead .
Jacqueline Luqm… : Hmm .
I mean , I really appreciate , Dr. Horne , you tying all of these historical truths that have been just absolutely hidden from most people for us together in this moment because I do agree with you that we can not rest on whatever accomplishments , however small , that they have been allowed to let us believe that we ’ ve @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the little bits of changes in policy that have been implemented .
We have much , much more work to do .
And I thank you so much for your time and helping us understand just where we are in this moment , and why this moment is so important .
So , thank you for joining me .
Dr. Gerald Horn… : Thank you for inviting me .
Jacqueline Luqm… : And this is Jacqueline Luqman with The Real News Network in the belly of the beast , Washington DC , telling @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , stay in these streets and stay the course .

The monuments represent more than just the people they honor. They symbolize the brutal legacy of white supremacy, racism, colonialism, and genocide we live with today.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Jacqueline Luqm…: This is Jacqueline Luqman with The Real News Network. As the national protests against racist police terrorism grew across this country, and eventually spread to countries around the world, the spontaneous nature of these organic uprisings was obviously connected to the spark that was the public lynching of George Floyd in Minneapolis, but they were largely seen as specifically about police violence against Black and other marginalized people, but otherwise unfocused. But, as the monuments to Confederate generals began coming down in the US and other statues of heralded figures throughout history were targeted around the world, it became clear that these national and global protests were about more than just solidarity with seeking justice for George Floyd, and even just with Black Lives Matter.
I’m so pleased to be joined by Dr. Gerald Horne, to talk about the significance of some of the statues that have been removed, whether by protestors or by state officials and what this means for the direction and the character of the ongoing protests in the days to come. Dr. Horne holds the John J. and Rebecca Moores Chair of History and African American Studies at the University of Houston. He’s the author of many excellent books, and the upcoming book, The Dawning of the Apocalypse: The Roots of Slavery, White Supremacy, Settler Colonialism, and Capitalism in the Long Sixteenth Century. Dr. Horne, thank you so much for joining me.
Dr. Gerald Horn…: Thank you for inviting me, and I’m happy to report that that book has just dropped the other day.
Jacqueline Luqm…: Excellent. Excellent. Absolutely looking forward to another great read. So, Dr. Horne, the statues of the Confederate generals in several states in the US have been a target for removal for years. And one of the main ones, the massive statue of General Lee in Richmond, Virginia on Monument Avenue is slated to be removed, although a judge has issued an injunction against that removal by Richmond mayor, Levar Stoney. Then we have a particularly poignant and, I think, symbolic removal of Christopher Columbus’s statue in Minneapolis that was carried out by members of the American Indian movement. Watching this, Dr. Horne, I felt like this was pulling down the false narrative erected about 1492. But, could you tell us why this removal is significant, historically, for this country and for the people who removed it?
Dr. Gerald Horn…: Well, first of all, the whitewashing of where colonialism in some ways begins with the false narrative constructed around Christopher Columbus and his son who liquidated the indigenous population of the island we call Hispaniola, which now contains both Haiti and the Dominican Republic, and also was involved in slave trading of Africans. In fact, some of the early uprisings by enslaved Africans were against the misrule and the terrorist rule of the Columbus family, and certainly, to erect a statue to a genocidaire, a man who helped to kick off centuries of genocide, it does not speak well, I’m afraid to say, for the United States of America. And it’s insulting, outrageous, and quite frankly, concerning that such statues have pockmarked the landscape for such a long period of time.
Jacqueline Luqm…: And then we have Governor Andrew Cuomo of New York defending the statue of Christopher Columbus in New York City as a symbol of Italian Americans’ contribution to New York. Now, what are the contradictions in Cuomo’s statement and Columbus’s statue being a symbol for Italian Americans, especially in this moment?
Dr. Gerald Horn…: Well, with all due respect to the governor of the Empire State, a curious term that, I might add, I hope and I think that if Italian Americans are looking for symbols of heroism, they might as well, if they’re going to uplift Christopher Columbus, they might as well uplift Lucky Luciano, and Vito Genovese, and Al Capone, and Frank Costello, and leaders of organized crime. Because those leaders of organized crime, they pale into insignificance when it comes to their misdeeds and their transgressions when compared to a genocidaire like Christopher Columbus. In fact, I’m disappointed at Governor Cuomo because the mainstream press, the corporate media has misled us to believe that, somehow, he is a thoughtful politician. But, alas, that statement that you’ve just cited helps to belie that kind of analysis.
Jacqueline Luqm…: It is incredibly disappointing, but it’s also revealing how the media does prop up these kinds of statements from who they indicate is the latest liberal darling, I suppose. And that is certainly what they’re doing with the Cuomos in New York, in regard to the narrative around Christopher Columbus and the continued deification of this man in the Italian American community. And that calls into question a few other statues, internationally, that have been the focus of renewed attention because there are calls to remove the statue of Cecil Rhodes from Oxford University in the UK. And that’s getting a lot of resistance from a lot of people in British society. Why would people want to remove the statue of Cecil Rhodes, and what significance does Mr. Rhodes have in US society that we might not be aware of, Dr. Horne?
Dr. Gerald Horn…: Well, Cecil Rhodes made a major fortune through the exploitation of the resources of Africa and the cheap labor of Africans. You may recall that the country now known as Zimbabwe was once known as Rhodesia or Southern Rhodesia, named after Mr. Rhodes. You may know that the country now known as Zambia was once known as Northern Rhodesia, named after Cecil Rhodes. You may know that Cecil Rhodes was also quite close to the racist in South Africa and, in fact, lived the number of years in South Africa and, of course, his fortune was bequeathed in part to create the so-called Rhodes Scholarship which, I’m afraid to say, has ensnared a number of US nationals and a number of US citizens who’ve gone on to study at Oxford University at the behest of, and as a result of, the shameless exploitation of Africa, and its resources, and its people.
Now, fortunately at Oxford University, as we speak, there is a Rhodes Must Fall movement. And, indeed, in the Financial Times of London just today, believe it or not, there’s an editorial or op-ed piece endorsing this idea that the statue of Cecil Rhodes must fall because I would like to think that we can do better than this. We can do better than honoring men known for their racism, their naked white supremacy, and their shameless and crude exploitation of their fellow human beings.
Jacqueline Luqm…: Now, this next question puzzled a lot of people, this next question about the next statue that is being called to be removed from a university in Accra, Ghana. And this is a statue of Mahatma Gandhi. Now, people are very confused about why anybody would want to remove a statue honoring the man who Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. indicated was responsible for part of his belief in non-violent protest. What is the significance of the problem of Gandhi and his relationship to Africans, in particular, that would lead to people wanting to remove his statue from a university in Ghana?
Dr. Gerald Horn…: Well, I’m afraid to say, and pardon the expression, that there’s a dark side to MK Gandhi. That is to say, that before he attained prominence in India and in South Asia, more generally, he had spent a number of years in South Africa. And I’m afraid to say that Mr. Gandhi did not distinguish himself with regard to his solicitude to the indigenous African population. And, in fact, you can construct an argument to suggest that, in some ways, he was trying to cut a deal with European minority on behalf of the South Asian minority on the Indian Ocean coast of South Africa itself. And I think that that helps to undergird the movement in Accra.
And keep in mind that a number of nationals of South Asia, particularly I would say, of the Sikh minority in South Asia, Sikhism, as you know, is the sixth-largest religion in the world, they would heartily endorse the removal of this statue to Mr. Gandhi because they see him in some ways as being a lineal ancestor of Prime Minister Modi in New Delhi who, as you know, is a kind of Hindu chauvinist and whose misrule and maladministration of India is now bringing that country into sharp conflict with its neighbor, China, on behalf of US imperialism. So, I think that these movements that we’re addressing should be applauded, the leaders should be congratulated because it suggests that our ideology and our ideas are not static, that we seek to learn from the past. We are not prisoners of the past.
Jacqueline Luqm…: Mm-hmm (affirmative) I know that people watching this when they learn about this dark side of Gandhi that you just told us, people will probably ask, “How did Dr. King not know this?” So, how do you think Dr. Martin Luther King would not know about this dark history of someone who he championed as a sort of an idol of his own?
Dr. Gerald Horn…: Well, as I’m sure you know, more than most, many nations construct fantasies and construct a false narratives about their heroes, and their heroines, and their history. I mean, look at the United States of America. Nikole Hannah-Jones just won a Pulitzer Prize in the New York Times for basically telling the truth. That is to say, that when the settlers, led by real estate speculator number one, George Washington, revolted against British rule in 1776, they were driven in no small measure by the desire to preserve slavery, enslavement of Africans. Yet the myth, the immaculate conception myth of the founding of the United States still holds true. And if you look at the scurrilous attacks on Nikole Hannah-Jones, despite her winning the Pulitzer, you’ll understand why many are rather reluctant to tamper with these sacred myths that, I’m afraid to say, oftentimes substitute for accurate history.
And so, with regard to Dr. King, I’m afraid to say, I never had a conversation with him about this, but I speculate that he was just reading the mythology that many folks read. But I dare say, that a man who was obviously able to grow intellectually and politically, that if he were around in 2020, I’m sure he would like to revise his initial thoughts about MK Gandhi.
Jacqueline Luqm…: And certainly because we are still fighting the system of white supremacy that crafted that narrative. It’s that same system that has made it true that Dr. King is not alive today to speak to the very thing that you just said. That’s I think something that needs to be said in this moment right now. Now, Dr. Horne, the next issue, this particular statue, this I think is one of the most significant out of all the monuments that are slated to be removed or have been removed in this moment. Because for me, I think it represents a part of the history of African people under colonization that is so often ignored and it’s treated as if it never even happened, and so it ultimately didn’t matter. But the removal of the statue of King Leopold in Belgium caused me to catch my breath, actually. I didn’t think it would ever happen. What does the statue to this particular man mean in regard to African people, not just in Africa, but around the world?
Dr. Gerald Horn…: Well, I just used the term genocidaire to describe Christopher Columbus. I would have to think of a new word to describe King Leopold because he makes Christopher Columbus seem like a piker by comparison. During his misrule of what was then called the Belgian Congo in the late 19th century and the early part of the 20th century, it’s estimated that approximately 10 million Africans perished as a result of the forced labor regime that he presided over, which forced these Africans to work under the gun in order to create wealth for this small kingdom in Western Europe. And, not only that, but this does not even take into account the Africans who had their hands cut off, or their limbs cut off, or their eyes gouged out. I mean, what happened under King Leopold is shameful.
And, once again, what’s staggering and stunning is not that the statues to him in Belgium are belatedly coming down, the question is really, what took so long? It does not speak well, I’m afraid to say, for the current rulers in Brussels. And, by the way, it does not speak well for the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, which is led by the United States, but it headquartered in Brussels, does not speak well that they did not lead a movement to remove these statues. It does not speak well for the European Union, which is headquartered in Brussels, that they did not lead a movement to remove these statues. I think that a moral stain basically rests upon, not only the rulers or the misrulers of Belgium but also NATO and the European Union, as well.
Jacqueline Luqm…: So, Dr. Horne, I mean, we just touched on a few of the significant statues that are being focused on right now. When we look at these actions across the country and around the world where protestors are focusing their energies, some of their energies on removing these statues, what are people really focusing on here? Because the argument is always, well, these are just statues, they’re just symbols. That’s the argument in one camp. Then, of course, the other argument in the other camp that we hear in the United States, especially around the statues of Confederate generals, is that if you take the statues down you’re erasing history, which I think is ridiculous, but that’s one of the arguments. But this is obviously something more than just solidarity with George Floyd, but it is connected. So, can you help us understand how the targeting of these statues, these monuments, these symbols being removed are related to what happened to George Floyd, but it’s also bigger than what happened to just him?
Dr. Gerald Horn…: Well, particularly the Confederate statues, the statues on Monument Avenue in Richmond, the statues to Robert E. Lee, the statues to these figures, these traitors like Jefferson Davis, the president of the so-called Confederate States of America, they provide psychological sustenance and succor to white supremacists. They help to reinforce the idea that white supremacy should be normative, that it should not be seen as an outlaw ideology that should be cast into the dustbin of history, but it should be seen as a living organism deserving and meriting respect. And therefore, when you watch the video of George Floyd being lynched on camera, you cannot separate that from the defense of white supremacy because George Floyd was lynched, not least because of ideology of white supremacy basically suggested that people of African descent were not worthy of living and are not worthy of living. That is the ultimate expression, I’m afraid to say, of white supremacy.
And so, when we have these attacks on statues, you have to put this in larger context of a multi-front offensive against white supremacy. The multi-front offensive includes the letters spearheaded by the actor, Viola Davis, reprimanding and rebuking the theater community for its white supremacy. The offensive against white supremacy also includes the pressure on Albany to rewrite the laws concerning the ability of the police to use offensive methods like chokeholds, for example. The offensive against white supremacy is a multi-front offensive, and we should not downplay or at all denigrate the effort to take down these statues, which are psychological sustenance to the most odious of white supremacists.
Jacqueline Luqm…: And, in your opinion, Dr. Horne, finally, I have to ask you this because you study, teach, and document uprisings and rebellions throughout history. Where do you see this global movement going? Are we at a moment that is pivotal for the history of humankind, as pivotal as some of the previous uprisings, and rebellions, and revolutions that you have documented, studied, and documented because I feel like it is, but I’m wondering how you feel about this moment right now?
Dr. Gerald Horn…: I would like to think so. And, certainly, when we just heard that the government of Burkina Faso in central-western Africa, on behalf of the African Union, is tabling a motion at the United Nations Human Rights Council to bring up the United States on charges of systemic racism against Black people. This is extraordinary. This is something that’s unique. And in light of it taking place within the context of demonstrations in Auckland, New Zealand, and Sydney, Australia, and London, England, and Berlin, Germany, all of which are militant expressions of revulsion towards either settler colonialism or colonialism itself, we are in the midst of a major movement.
Now, where will this movement eventuate? After two to three weeks, I think it’s too soon to say, particularly, in the United States of America where the popularity rating of the oaf the Oval Office still remains in the forties, where voter suppression is still a reality as signified by what happened in the primaries in the state of Georgia just a few days ago. But, certainly, I think we must keep the pressure on because this is no time to rest on our laurels. This is a time to motor ahead.
Jacqueline Luqm…: Hmm. I mean, I really appreciate, Dr. Horne, you tying all of these historical truths that have been just absolutely hidden from most people for us together in this moment because I do agree with you that we cannot rest on whatever accomplishments, however small, that they have been allowed to let us believe that we’ve achieved in these last few weeks with the little bits of changes in policy that have been implemented. We have much, much more work to do. And I thank you so much for your time and helping us understand just where we are in this moment, and why this moment is so important. So, thank you for joining me.
Dr. Gerald Horn…: Thank you for inviting me.
Jacqueline Luqm…: And this is Jacqueline Luqman with The Real News Network in the belly of the beast, Washington DC, telling you to stay angry, my friends, stay in these streets and stay the course.
Production: Genevieve Montinar, Taylor Hebden, Andrew Corkery
Studio: Taylor Hebden
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therealnews--2020-06-18--Stir Crazy! Episode #56: We Will Win

Stir Crazy! Episode #56: We Will Win

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Visual Producer (former)
Raised in southern New Jersey outside Philadelphia, and now residing in Baltimore Maryland, Andrew Corkery worked as a Visual Producer / Editor/ Researcher for the Real News Network. Prior to that he worked for nearly four years as Video Editor for CBS 3 Eyewitness News, and an Investigative Journalist for Spirit News both in Philadelphia. He graduated from Rider University in Lawrenceville, New Jersey in May of 2014 with a Bachelor's degree in Digital Media. While in college Andrew completed a media education and co op work program at CAPA London, working as a researcher and video editor for COAST, a digital strategy and brand film content production company.
Andrew maintains a relentlessly keen interest in all things geopolitics in almost every corner of the globe. He has since applied this passion and interest to his creative and investigative work as a producer, editor, journalist and videographer. One of his most impactful pieces focused on a story outlining how to combat Islamophobia in communities across the world, articulating the differences between Radical Islamists and the vast majority of people who follow Islam, while showing the many layers of nuance, both in politics and religion more broadly. That Story, "Islam in the Riverwards: PART 1 AND 2," along with "Being Black in Bridesburg", a story highlighting the impacts and legacy of racial injustice in a largely white community within Philadelphia, were both published in Spirit News and later featured in write ups from The Philadelphia Inquirer and Philadelphia Magazine.
With Andrew's career expanding experience of living and working abroad in mind, he recognizes the importance of staying connected to the world. The cornerstones of Andrew's work can always be found in uncovering the expansive impact of global events and political issues, while relating them to people's everyday lives, through the mediums of online video, film and writing. Finally, Andrew is currently the Lead Singer and Member Manager of a successful original alternative rock band called Shadowplay, based in Mt. Laurel, NJ, founded in 2008 at Lenape High School. The band has since performed over 200 shows, including performances at such festivals as SXSW, and opening up for bands like Tracy Guns, Weitz and The Parlor Mob.


therealnews--2020-06-18--Why You Should Give a F*ck | Ep. 2 | Unemployment

Studio Technician (former)
Coming from a background in video production and filmmaking, Tunde Ogunfolaju was a studio tech for TRNN from 2018-2020. He operated, monitored, and adjusted audio, video, lighting, and broadcast equipment for the purposes of handling day-to-day production of in-studio, remote and live streamed interviews involving current political news for TRNN. He is a Baltimore native and great enthusiast of 90’s R&B as well as old school wrestling.


therealnews--2020-06-19--Union Leads West Coast Port Shutdown On Juneteenth

Former political prisoner Arthur League talks about the ILWU shutdown and the campaign to free Black political prisoners , some @ @ @ @ @ for over 50 years .

Former political prisoner Arthur League talks about the ILWU shutdown and the campaign to free Black political prisoners, some of whom have been imprisoned for over 50 years.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Eddie Conway: Welcome to this episode of Rattling the Bars. I’m Eddie Conway coming to you from Baltimore for the Real News Network. After the death of George Floyd, protests have spread across the United States and around the world. One of the things that’s happening is that there’s a call for justice, a call for de-funding the police, a call for creating a better society. One of the things that’s left out of this call is the call for the release of political prisoners, some that’s been held almost 50 years since the ’60s and the ’70s. So toward that end there’s a action taking place across the nation, up and down the West Coast and the East Coast, that will make demands for all those things that the protesters are calling for, but also to include the plight of the political prisoners.
So here with me today is Arthur League who represents, and who’s a former political prisoner himself, but represents a lot of the political prisoner cases in terms of his activities and organizing on the ground. So Arthur, thanks for joining me.
Arthur League: Thank you for having me.
Eddie Conway: Arthur, start off by telling me about this action on the West Coast and the East Coast, and who’s organizing it? And why is it taking place?
Arthur League: Well, it’s an action to shut down the ports of entry, where all the trade that is conducted between nations that come into the United States, go through ports that come across the water. So all the ports on the West Coast on Juneteenth, this Friday, is going to be shut down to call attention to the plight of people in this country who are being systematically murdered by police, and not being treated as equal human beings. The West Coast ports are all shutting down. The East Coast ports have joined in that effort, and will be making a statement on their own and we’ll be shutting down for some period of time. So I’m not privy to the organizing on the East Coast. I just received the word that they are going to participate.
And it’s a most powerful thing because some of the important union sector of the working people in this society are taking a chance or taking a stand, I’m, sorry, that’s not just a young people in the street demanding justice.
Eddie Conway: One of the issues that’s part of the demands is for the political prisoners, and both you and I have been formal political prisoners, but a lot of people don’t realize that there are people that’s held in prison as long as almost I think almost, I think Chip Fitzgerald, is almost 50 years now, and other prisoners are well into past their 40th year, 45 years. Can you talk a little bit about the political prisoners, the ones that people don’t talk about, like McGee and so on. Could you give me kind of like, give me a little rundown on each one of them, maybe a minute about their case, and what’s their status now?
Arthur League: Well, the reality is it takes much more than a minute because they’re all complicated. And so Chip, for an example, will be locked down 51 years October the 9th, and people often ask me, “Man, why do you know all the way down to the day of something that happened 51 years ago? And I just tell them that my son was born October the 9th, 1969, the very day Chip was locked up. So it’s really near and dear to my heart, because we were comrades, and we functioned together, out from the Los Angeles chapter. So in his case it’s 51 years. In Ruchell McGee’s case, it’s even longer, it’s like 55 years that he’s been locked down.
But there are others. There are, not so much with George Jackson but with his brother, Jonathan Jackson. And it was the case at the Marin County Courthouse, where that was an attempt to liberate prisoners, and the guards opened fire and shot up and killed a bunch of people. And he’s been held ever since the day.
Well, Jalil is in New York. He’s been locked up 48 years, since he was 19. Chip started in the party when he was 19. But Jalil, people have called for his release and he was granted released and the district attorney of New York appealed the grant based on the COVID virus going around, they appealed, it was overturned, and sure enough, he ended up with the COVID-19 virus. He’s in recovery now. Certainly we hope that it’s recovery, you never could be too sure about the information you get from the dungeons. But he’s another one that needs to come home.
And if I can, I can tell you why. People just stood up, like the people are doing today. We didn’t have thousands. And today these young people are going to be new political prisoners, if we don’t stand up for justice for people who stood up in the past.
Eddie Conway: Veronzo, Sundiata, if you can talk a little bit about them. Russell Shoatz.
Arthur League: It is the whole list. And I would direct people, and I think people should do some research because I think it’s important that knowledge is power, and that there are some groups out there. There’s one called the Jericho Movement. You can go online and get their contact information and they have a list of all of these political prisoners, and the political prisoners that you just named are mostly from the East Coast. In fact, we have two in California, and by the way, they’re not all black people. They’re native people. There’s some white people. And today we call them Mother Country radicals, but we called them that, it’s a term of endearment. So don’t get it twisted, that they fought with us, alongside of us and in some cases just as hard. We’ve lost many of them to the dungeons.
Sometimes they played with our hearts. They let one of our comrades, Marilyn Buck go, only to lose her within days of her release, from cancer. Herman Wallace, after 40 plus years of solitary confinement, they decided to let him go. We lost him within weeks of him coming home, from cancer. But the people Sundiata, all these people, they have one in common. That they stood up to fight for the very issues that people are in the streets today fighting for. Back in the day we had our slogan, and one of them was All Power to the People. We knew the people would be there. We knew they would come. We just didn’t know the date. And I am so giddy and pleased to see people in the street, and how fortunate I feel to be one of the ones who was able to live to see it, and how much I wish that there was some way that I could have our people who did not make it through this process to be able to see these beautiful people out in the streets.
And I would actively encourage people to get on your computer, hashtag political prisoners, hashtag anything you want to, but to ask other people to free these prisoners.
Eddie Conway: That was my next question. In fact, when I look at the protests around the country, and around the world, one of the things I don’t see on the signs is a call for the release of political prisoners. I think that’s missing right now, but it’s not something that young people are completely unaware of. They just don’t seem to be mobilizing young people and old people right now. And I’m bringing this up because the Puerto Ricans political prisoners, which also got locked up around that same time, have mostly been freed now because of the great effort that the Puerto Rican community launched over the decades, it took them decades, they just recently within the last 10 years I believe, got released. But it seemed like we need to take a page, the people of America that is, need to take a page from that campaign, that support.
What would you suggest that young people do besides finding out who these political prisoners are?
Arthur League: So let me give you an observation. I went out amongst these young people in the streets, in Oakland, and I marched with them, even though I’m over 70, they gave me so much energy of being out there that made these old bones move. And I asked people, did they know that right here in America, there are people who were locked up for what they’re doing right now, in the ’60s, and in some cases have been locked up for over 50 years? In most cases, over 40? Some cases, maybe less. And people consistently didn’t know. And I asked them, were they willing to let other people know, and were they willing to call for their release? And if they was willing to do anything to help those people, and reminded them that if we don’t come for them, if we don’t help them, who’s going to be there for you? Because these are the people that preceded you.
They didn’t follow you. Don’t make you better than them, or them you. But that’s the reality. And, for Chip, an example, we have a website, it’s freedom4chip.org. And we had a petition calling for his release on the website. And we had around 7,000 signatures. And three days after that rally in March, we checked the signatures, and it had gone up, 15,000, and we’re getting thousands of signatures today. We also know that there are young people in the streets calling for other young people to hashtag, to find out who these people are, but we have to put in the work.
And fortunately for the cause, and unfortunately, maybe for me, because I’m not really much into about talking about stuff, I’ve been able to be listed and as on as a speaker for the big rally of closing down the ports. And I’ll be able to talk to people about this, but go to freedom4chip, go to the Black Panther Party’s alumni committees website, go to Jericho, go to Freedom Archives, great source of information. But you have to put in some work, because there’s preparation right now to come for these young people. Right now, they are pouring over videos. They’re using this technology called face recognition to try to point out people, and then ultimately they’re going to come for you, and somebody’s got to be there for you.
There’s no guarantee some of us old folks is going to be around a whole lot longer, that we are part of nature, we understand that things come into being and go out of being. But as long as the people who took those chances years ago are around, we going to come for you as best we can.
Eddie Conway: I think that should be the last word. Arthur, thanks for joining me, and giving me this update, and we’ll come back, and we’ll actually do a report on the work stoppage in the ports. Thanks for joining me.
Arthur League: Brother, thank you for having me and thank you for everything you’re doing.
Eddie Conway: Okay. And thank you for joining this episode of Rattling the Bars for the Real News Network.
Studio: Cameron Granadino
Production: Cameron Granadino, Ericka Blount Danois
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