therealnews--2020-04-28--Labour Party Plot Against Corbyn Revealed

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
Marc Steiner : Welcome to The Real News .
I ’ m Marc Steiner .
Good to have you all with us once again .
The British Labour Party has been wrecked by this internal intrigue .
As you know , we ’ ve been covering the issue of accusations of antisemitism that led to suspensions and expulsions of hundreds of members of the Labour Party ever since Jeremy Corbyn took leadership .
Now , this newly leaked report , from the Equality and Human @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of rampant antisemitism in the Labour Party was always a myth .
It was the cover for Corbyn ’ s opponents to get rid of him as a leader and end the power of the left inside the party .
It was literally an internal plot by senior members of the Labour Party who wanted to bring the party back to Blairism , as in Tony Blair , to something just to the left of Thatcherism .
They wanted to get rid of Corbyn and his supporters so badly they were willing to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ which of course they did .
It ’ s been a huge scandal in the Labour Party .
Much of the press has been ignoring it .
We ’ re not .
In response to that report , Labour Party member , John MacDonald , spoke to Sky News and had this to say .
John MacDonald : Let me just say this though .
If the investigation finds that this report is accurate , these members should have to be expelled and should never be allowed back into the Labour Party ever @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Now you ’ ve asked me the question of how this information has gone into the report .
My understanding is that this is all internal Labour Party communications .
The EHRC asked that all those internal communications should be made available to them .
That ’ s exactly what happened here .
Marc Steiner : One quote reported is from Peter Mandelson , who is the architect of New Labour from 2017 .
And he was quoted as saying , “ I work every single day , in some small way @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , ” Corbyn ’ s , “ Tenure and office .
Something , however small it may be .
An email , a phone call , a meeting I convene .
Every day I try to do something to save the Labour Party from his leadership.
” So now what ?
We ’ re joined once again by a Dr Ghada Karmi , a British Palestinian scholar who published many books and articles on the history of politics of Palestine and is an active member of the Labour Party and Dr Karmi , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with us here at The Real News .
Marc Steiner : So let ’ s just begin .
This is a very interesting , revealative , what this report revealed .
Talk a bit about what the internal politics here is and what happened .
This was kind of stunning , to see this thing rolled out .
So what the backdrop ?
What ’ s the background ?
Ghada Karmi : Well , first of all , we need to look indeed at the background .
You ’ ve outlined it quite @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to this is , in reality , the refusal of a lot of the Members of Parliament , the Labour Members of Parliament , to accept Jeremy Corbyn ’ s leadership .
This started the moment he became leader in 2015 and then into 2016 .
And they tried to mount , what you could only call , an internal coup by trying to replace him with another candidate .
Now that maneuver failed because although a lot of , or a majority of , Labour MPs , Members of Parliament , where @ @ @ @ @ @ @ common membership of the Labour Party , was very supportive of him and he was reelected .
So they had to find another way and they have never ceased to look for some other way to get at him and to get rid of him .
They had a conviction that Labour would never win with him as leader , on the one hand .
Secondly , there are , of course , quite a lot of business interests , capitalist interests , which the Labour Party is not innocent of , that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s leadership because he would have been anticapitalist .
There ’ s no question .
And his politics and his economics are socialists and that is something that was a no-no for a lot of these people .
Marc Steiner : So when we last talked together , it was because you wrote something about the Palestinian members of Labour and their voice in the Labour Party .
And Al Jazeera seems to have shown now that much of the delegitimization of Corbyn was done actively by the Israeli lobby in Britain .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ , so I ’ m curious where you think this is going to leave the Labour Party .
Here you have now the Conservative Party in full control , and Boris Johnson ’ s wing of the party has control of that party , and Labour could be imploding .
So what would happen next ?
Ghada Karmi : Well , this is a real problem .
I would never of course have left the party while Corbyn was leader because I felt it was absolutely incumbent on me to support him on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and on grounds that I ’ m a Palestinian and he is the only leader of a major western political party who ’ s made his support for Palestine public and unequivocal .
This , as you know , it ’ s unbelievable .
It ’ s unheard off .
And for that reason alone , I would have supported him through thick and thin .
But I also have a sense of justice .
I can see that he was the victim of a witch hunt .
It ’ s quite obvious @ @ @ @ @ @ @ then .
When he was removed from office , and I speak advisedly because that ’ s really what happened , he was hounded out of the party , and now I look at what is calling itself the Labour Party and I ’ m really considering leaving .
Now , when you ask what ’ s to be done , excellent question .
This is a question for all those who support the Labour Party and all members of the Labour Party .
They should ask themselves , what is the party @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Is it going to be a pale version of the conservatives ?
It ’ s not a proper opposition and there are ideas that maybe the best thing to do is for the current party to split into two parties , if you like .
One which is publicly and clearly socialist and talks on the politics of Corbyn and John McDonnell and the left quite clearly .
And the other should be those who are [ inaudible 00:07:22 ] rights on the right wing who want to act you ’ re very @ @ @ @ @ @ @ what does it actually mean ?
Doesn ’ t mean anything .
So those sorts of people would then be in that party , and it ’ s a very sad thing to say , but I think one has to face reality .
Marc Steiner : Very quickly here , before we end , I ’ m curious where you think this will take , where it could take British politics .
If a party split , left went one way and the right went the other way and you sort of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Britain in many ways , where do you think that would take the of future politics ?
I mean this is rooted in the lies about antisemitism .
Antisemitism is very real .
The lies [ inaudible 00:08:16 ] told about the Labour Party were also very real when it came to antisemitism .
That ’ s one discussion .
The other discussion is , if it does split because of this , because they use this ploy to get rid of Corbyn and the left , where do you think that takes @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Karmi : Indeed , indeed .
And of course I take the point , but you know , there comes a point where you sometimes say to yourself , you need to cut your losses .
Because I can ’ t see that going on like this , dragging people who are on the left somehow reluctantly and against their will , to share the same party with the right wingers and the people who speak a language which is alien to the proper , the old Labour Party .
It doesn ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ has to perhaps say , let ’ s cut our losses .
Yes , we lose time because I don ’ t think Labour , as it is , will get back in for a very long .
So why not use the time ?
Say we ’ re going to be out of office for a while , let ’ s look at ourselves properly .
And yes , and let ’ s split .
Let ’ s have a decent left wing party which harks back to the origins of the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ achievements .
And these new liberals and the people who copy conservative policies but in a milder form , that kind of thing , they can go and do their own thing in their party .
Look , it ’ s a counsel of despair in a way , but maybe it ’ s a belated recognition of reality .
Marc Steiner : Dr Karmi , it ’ s always a pleasure to have you with us here on The Real News .
I appreciate you taking the time and staying up for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Look forward to many more in the future and have a great rest of the week .
Ghada Karmi : Thank you .
Thank you .
Marc Steiner : And I ’ m Mark Steiner of The Real News Network .
I hope you enjoyed the conversation .
Let us know what you think .
Please stay safe , stay healthy , stay isolated .
Take care .

Newly-elected leader Keir Starmer promised to investigate the evidence that senior party members actively undermined Jeremy Corbyn, even at the cost of weakening Labour in the general election.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Marc Steiner: Welcome to The Real News. I’m Marc Steiner. Good to have you all with us once again.
The British Labour Party has been wrecked by this internal intrigue. As you know, we’ve been covering the issue of accusations of antisemitism that led to suspensions and expulsions of hundreds of members of the Labour Party ever since Jeremy Corbyn took leadership. Now, this newly leaked report, from the Equality and Human Rights Commission, revealed that the accusation of rampant antisemitism in the Labour Party was always a myth. It was the cover for Corbyn’s opponents to get rid of him as a leader and end the power of the left inside the party. It was literally an internal plot by senior members of the Labour Party who wanted to bring the party back to Blairism, as in Tony Blair, to something just to the left of Thatcherism. They wanted to get rid of Corbyn and his supporters so badly they were willing to see the party lose the election, which of course they did.
It’s been a huge scandal in the Labour Party. Much of the press has been ignoring it. We’re not. In response to that report, Labour Party member, John MacDonald, spoke to Sky News and had this to say.
John MacDonald: Let me just say this though. If the investigation finds that this report is accurate, these members should have to be expelled and should never be allowed back into the Labour Party ever again, because this is serious matters. Now you’ve asked me the question of how this information has gone into the report. My understanding is that this is all internal Labour Party communications. The EHRC asked that all those internal communications should be made available to them. That’s exactly what happened here.
Marc Steiner: One quote reported is from Peter Mandelson, who is the architect of New Labour from 2017. And he was quoted as saying, “I work every single day, in some small way to bring forward the end of his,” Corbyn’s, “Tenure and office. Something, however small it may be. An email, a phone call, a meeting I convene. Every day I try to do something to save the Labour Party from his leadership.”
So now what? We’re joined once again by a Dr Ghada Karmi, a British Palestinian scholar who published many books and articles on the history of politics of Palestine and is an active member of the Labour Party and Dr Karmi, welcome back. Good to have you with us here at The Real News.
Ghada Karmi: Yes. Hello.
Marc Steiner: So let’s just begin. This is a very interesting, revealative, what this report revealed. Talk a bit about what the internal politics here is and what happened. This was kind of stunning, to see this thing rolled out. So what the backdrop? What’s the background?
Ghada Karmi: Well, first of all, we need to look indeed at the background. You’ve outlined it quite well in your introduction. The background to this is, in reality, the refusal of a lot of the Members of Parliament, the Labour Members of Parliament, to accept Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership. This started the moment he became leader in 2015 and then into 2016. And they tried to mount, what you could only call, an internal coup by trying to replace him with another candidate. Now that maneuver failed because although a lot of, or a majority of, Labour MPs, Members of Parliament, where against him, the membership, the common membership of the Labour Party, was very supportive of him and he was reelected. So they had to find another way and they have never ceased to look for some other way to get at him and to get rid of him.
They had a conviction that Labour would never win with him as leader, on the one hand. Secondly, there are, of course, quite a lot of business interests, capitalist interests, which the Labour Party is not innocent of, that dislike the left and dislike Corbyn’s leadership because he would have been anticapitalist. There’s no question. And his politics and his economics are socialists and that is something that was a no-no for a lot of these people.
Marc Steiner: So when we last talked together, it was because you wrote something about the Palestinian members of Labour and their voice in the Labour Party. And Al Jazeera seems to have shown now that much of the delegitimization of Corbyn was done actively by the Israeli lobby in Britain. They seem to have succeeded in this, so I’m curious where you think this is going to leave the Labour Party. Here you have now the Conservative Party in full control, and Boris Johnson’s wing of the party has control of that party, and Labour could be imploding. So what would happen next?
Ghada Karmi: Well, this is a real problem. I would never of course have left the party while Corbyn was leader because I felt it was absolutely incumbent on me to support him on moral grounds, on political grounds, and on grounds that I’m a Palestinian and he is the only leader of a major western political party who’s made his support for Palestine public and unequivocal. This, as you know, it’s unbelievable. It’s unheard off. And for that reason alone, I would have supported him through thick and thin. But I also have a sense of justice. I can see that he was the victim of a witch hunt. It’s quite obvious. So basically that was my position then.
When he was removed from office, and I speak advisedly because that’s really what happened, he was hounded out of the party, and now I look at what is calling itself the Labour Party and I’m really considering leaving. Now, when you ask what’s to be done, excellent question. This is a question for all those who support the Labour Party and all members of the Labour Party. They should ask themselves, what is the party? What does it stand for? Is it going to be a pale version of the conservatives? It’s not a proper opposition and there are ideas that maybe the best thing to do is for the current party to split into two parties, if you like.
One which is publicly and clearly socialist and talks on the politics of Corbyn and John McDonnell and the left quite clearly. And the other should be those who are [inaudible 00:07:22] rights on the right wing who want to act you’re very comfortable if you say centrist. But what does it actually mean? Doesn’t mean anything. So those sorts of people would then be in that party, and it’s a very sad thing to say, but I think one has to face reality.
Marc Steiner: Very quickly here, before we end, I’m curious where you think this will take, where it could take British politics. If a party split, left went one way and the right went the other way and you sort of had this huge conservative party that dominates Britain in many ways, where do you think that would take the of future politics? I mean this is rooted in the lies about antisemitism. Antisemitism is very real. The lies [inaudible 00:08:16] told about the Labour Party were also very real when it came to antisemitism. That’s one discussion. The other discussion is, if it does split because of this, because they use this ploy to get rid of Corbyn and the left, where do you think that takes the future of your politics?
Ghada Karmi: Indeed, indeed. And of course I take the point, but you know, there comes a point where you sometimes say to yourself, you need to cut your losses. Because I can’t see that going on like this, dragging people who are on the left somehow reluctantly and against their will, to share the same party with the right wingers and the people who speak a language which is alien to the proper, the old Labour Party. It doesn’t work. In the end one has to perhaps say, let’s cut our losses. Yes, we lose time because I don’t think Labour, as it is, will get back in for a very long. So why not use the time? Say we’re going to be out of office for a while, let’s look at ourselves properly.
And yes, and let’s split. Let’s have a decent left wing party which harks back to the origins of the Labour Party and made very many great achievements. And these new liberals and the people who copy conservative policies but in a milder form, that kind of thing, they can go and do their own thing in their party. Look, it’s a counsel of despair in a way, but maybe it’s a belated recognition of reality.
Marc Steiner: Dr Karmi, it’s always a pleasure to have you with us here on The Real News. I appreciate you taking the time and staying up for us tonight to have this conversation. Look forward to many more in the future and have a great rest of the week.
Ghada Karmi: Thank you. Thank you.
Marc Steiner: And I’m Mark Steiner of The Real News Network. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. Let us know what you think. Please stay safe, stay healthy, stay isolated. Take care.
Production: Genevieve Montinar, Will Arenas, Andrew Corkery
Studio: Will Arenas
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therealnews--2020-04-29--Ryan Grim: Dems Will Back Biden As Long As They Think He’ll Beat Trump

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
Hillary Clinton : I am thrilled to be part of your campaign , to not only endorse you , but to help highlight a lot of the issues that are at stake in this Presidential election .
Jaisal Noor : Welcome to the Real News .
I ’ m Jaisal Noor .
Is it wise for the Democratic Party brass to continue to back Joe Biden , the presumptive Presidential nominee while he ’ s failed to address a decades old alleged sexual assault that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ new people stepped forward to corroborate allegations made by former Senate staffer Tara Reade , who says in 1993 then Senator Biden pinned her against a wall and penetrated her with his fingers .
Tara Reade : The next thing I remember was that night and talking to my mom and she was like , “ You need to file a police report .
It ’ s a sexual assault.
” It shattered my life and changed the trajectory of my whole career and life and I lost my job after I complained @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : The Biden Campaign has denied the claims , but evidence is mounting , including from CNN ’ s Larry King Live .
Shortly after the alleged incident occurred , a woman who Reade says is her mother calls in to discuss her daughter ’ s allegations .
Speaker 4 : Hello , I ’ m wondering what a staffer would do besides go to the press in Washington ?
My daughter has just left there after working for a prominent Senator and could not get through with her problems at all and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was go to the press and she chose not to do it out of respect for him .
Jaisal Noor : Well , now , joining us to discuss this is Ryan Grim , the D.C. Bureau Chief for the Intercept , author of , We ’ ve Got People From Jesse Jackson to Alexandria Ocasio Cortez : The End of Big Money and the Rise of a Movement .
It ’ s a book akin to a people ’ s history of the fight against elite control of the democratic party .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ Ryan .
Ryan Grim : Thanks for having me .
Jaisal Noor : So Hillary just endorsed Joe Biden today and he ’ s recently received the endorsements of even Pramila Jayapal who ’ s the House Progressive Caucus Co-chair , a major backer of Medicare-For-All .
So her and Biden have some serious policy differences .
She ’ s a top Sanders surrogate as well .
And this is all happening at a time there ’ s mounting evidence corroborating claims by Tara Reade , a former staffer of Biden .
Business @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a former neighbor of Reade on the record and the former neighbor says they still intend to vote for Biden .
You ’ ve been covering Capitol Hill , elections for a long time now .
You talk about these type of incidents and how it could play out within the Democratic arty and in the Capitol in your book .
What are your thoughts on these latest developments ?
Ryan Grim : Sure .
And her friend ’ s calculus is one that I think that tens of millions of people are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ at least it ’ s honest and there is I think some intellectual there to say , “ Look , I believe her .
What Joe Biden did was wrong .
On the other hand , I ’ m going to vote for the guy who is running against Donald Trump.
” And I think if party leaders were taking some tact like that , they may actually be doing better with a lot of the skeptics of Biden ’ s and bias say , “ Okay , well , now we ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the lesser of two evils instead of trying to affirmatively pretend that there ’ s a positive greatness here that we can stand behind.
” That ’ s just not the world that we live in though and that wasn ’ t the direction that they were going to take .
But that means that every time there ’ s more corroborating evidence that Tara Reade claims are indeed credible it ’ s going to make news again .
And right now in the middle of a pandemic , in the middle of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of President Trump fueling both of them , there ’ s not going to be a lot of on air oxygen for anything Joe Biden related .
And that is just fine with his campaign and it fits with , like you said , decades of kind of Democratic Party strategy to kind of be not Republicans and to try to walk backwards accidentally into the White House .
Occasionally , it has worked and more often it hasn ’ t .
Jaisal Noor : So you helped break the story of Christine @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Kavanaugh .
The Left has responded very differently to both these instances .
You reported a piece , Time ’ s upset it could not fund a MeToo allegation against Joe Biden citing its nonprofit status and his Presidential run .
What are your thoughts on this ?
Ryan Grim : Throughout political history that has been the case , that people ’ s interest in victims of sexual assault always peaks when it is most advantageous to their politics .
The promise of MeToo was that this time was going to be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ donor , huge player in Democratic Party politics and yet he was taken down anyway .
The idea was it didn ’ t matter what team you are on , that we were going to change the culture around this question , and extraordinary gains have been made over the last several years .
But a part of this was set up for a collision in the sense that Republicans were never going to play by the rules that the MeToo movement was setting up .
And so when a lot of Republicans @ @ @ @ @ @ @ highly credibly accused of assaulting , just prowling malls and going after 13 year old girls , the most hideous stuff .
A lot of Republicans kind of stick behind him and he still ran a competitive race , didn ’ t even drop out .
And that was happening at the same time that Al Franken was getting accused of groping women during photos that he was taking with them .
I think a lot of democratic voters deeply regret the way that Al Franken resigned , the way that he went @ @ @ @ @ @ @ turn on some elements of the MeToo movement .
And so when this came around , I think people were much less willing to go forward and push it to the degree that they had before Al Franken and up to Al Franken , part because of that experience .
A lot of Democrats are saying , “ We ’ re tired of playing by different rules that Republicans are playing by.
” Jaisal Noor : So I ’ ve been saying for a while that Joe Biden isn ’ t a complete @ @ @ @ @ @ @ re still relatively early in the Primary process , but New York State just announced they are canceling the Presidential Primary because of the coronavirus endemic and Sanders suspending his campaign .
We recently spoke to Jamaal Bowman who ’ s seeking to unseat a 30 year incumbent whose major backers include Wall Street , weapons manufacturers , and the Israel lobby , and he ’ s been critical of the Democratic Party ’ s response , their handling of the coronavirus pandemic .
Speaker 6 : The Democratically controlled House unfortunately isn @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Progressives .
So they ’ ve fought for a few things that were needed but didn ’ t go far enough .
I mean , the first bailout package focused specifically on large corporations and the wealthy and left small businesses and the working class to fend for themselves .
In addition , there are still hospitals struggling to receive PPEs .
There are still not enough masks .
There are still not enough gloves .
There ’ s still not enough testing with efficient , quick results .
There ’ s still @ @ @ @ @ @ @ lot more needs to be done to put pressure on the White House to make sure that those who are most vulnerable in our district receive all of the care and all of the resources they need .
And unfortunately that ’ s not happening right now .
Jaisal Noor : What impact could this have , and do you think these new allegations might change how the Democratic Party approaches the remaining primary ?
Ryan Grim : No , I don ’ t think that the level of allegations that we ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in the Democratic Primary election .
Joe Biden is not going to drop out and he ’ s not going to be pressured to drop out as long as he ’ s 10 points up in the polls against President Trump .
Now , if more people come forward and if then people start calling for him to drop out and that drives his poll numbers down , then you could see donors coming to him and saying , “ We ’ re not financing this anymore.
” But , on the current @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to plow right through this .
They feel like they have the nomination , they ’ re up 10 points on Trump , and this isn ’ t going to derail them .
Jaisal Noor : All right , Ryan Grim .
Well , thanks for joining us for our first part of this conversation and we ’ ll talk more about your book , We ’ ve Got People From Jesse Jackson to Alexandria Ocasio Cortez , in part two of this interview .
And thank you for joining us at the @ @ @ @

The Intercept’s Ryan Grim discusses the latest developments in Tara Reade’s assault allegations against Joe Biden, and Hillary Clinton’s endorsement.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Hillary Clinton: I am thrilled to be part of your campaign, to not only endorse you, but to help highlight a lot of the issues that are at stake in this Presidential election.
Jaisal Noor: Welcome to the Real News. I’m Jaisal Noor. Is it wise for the Democratic Party brass to continue to back Joe Biden, the presumptive Presidential nominee while he’s failed to address a decades old alleged sexual assault that’s been newly corroborated? Two new people stepped forward to corroborate allegations made by former Senate staffer Tara Reade, who says in 1993 then Senator Biden pinned her against a wall and penetrated her with his fingers.
Tara Reade: The next thing I remember was that night and talking to my mom and she was like, “You need to file a police report. It’s a sexual assault.” It shattered my life and changed the trajectory of my whole career and life and I lost my job after I complained and I was fired.
Jaisal Noor: The Biden Campaign has denied the claims, but evidence is mounting, including from CNN’s Larry King Live. Shortly after the alleged incident occurred, a woman who Reade says is her mother calls in to discuss her daughter’s allegations.
Speaker 4: Hello, I’m wondering what a staffer would do besides go to the press in Washington? My daughter has just left there after working for a prominent Senator and could not get through with her problems at all and the only thing she could have done was go to the press and she chose not to do it out of respect for him.
Jaisal Noor: Well, now, joining us to discuss this is Ryan Grim, the D.C. Bureau Chief for the Intercept, author of, We’ve Got People From Jesse Jackson to Alexandria Ocasio Cortez: The End of Big Money and the Rise of a Movement. It’s a book akin to a people’s history of the fight against elite control of the democratic party. Thanks so much for joining us, Ryan.
Ryan Grim: Thanks for having me.
Jaisal Noor: So Hillary just endorsed Joe Biden today and he’s recently received the endorsements of even Pramila Jayapal who’s the House Progressive Caucus Co-chair, a major backer of Medicare-For-All. So her and Biden have some serious policy differences. She’s a top Sanders surrogate as well. And this is all happening at a time there’s mounting evidence corroborating claims by Tara Reade, a former staffer of Biden. Business Insider even got a former colleague and a former neighbor of Reade on the record and the former neighbor says they still intend to vote for Biden. You’ve been covering Capitol Hill, elections for a long time now. You talk about these type of incidents and how it could play out within the Democratic arty and in the Capitol in your book. What are your thoughts on these latest developments?
Ryan Grim: Sure. And her friend’s calculus is one that I think that tens of millions of people are going to make. And I think at least it’s honest and there is I think some intellectual there to say, “Look, I believe her. What Joe Biden did was wrong. On the other hand, I’m going to vote for the guy who is running against Donald Trump.” And I think if party leaders were taking some tact like that, they may actually be doing better with a lot of the skeptics of Biden’s and bias say, “Okay, well, now we’re back to making a calculation between the lesser of two evils instead of trying to affirmatively pretend that there’s a positive greatness here that we can stand behind.” That’s just not the world that we live in though and that wasn’t the direction that they were going to take.
But that means that every time there’s more corroborating evidence that Tara Reade claims are indeed credible it’s going to make news again. And right now in the middle of a pandemic, in the middle of an economic crisis, in the middle of President Trump fueling both of them, there’s not going to be a lot of on air oxygen for anything Joe Biden related. And that is just fine with his campaign and it fits with, like you said, decades of kind of Democratic Party strategy to kind of be not Republicans and to try to walk backwards accidentally into the White House. Occasionally, it has worked and more often it hasn’t.
Jaisal Noor: So you helped break the story of Christine Blasey Ford’s allegations against Brett Kavanaugh. The Left has responded very differently to both these instances. You reported a piece, Time’s upset it could not fund a MeToo allegation against Joe Biden citing its nonprofit status and his Presidential run. What are your thoughts on this?
Ryan Grim: Throughout political history that has been the case, that people’s interest in victims of sexual assault always peaks when it is most advantageous to their politics. The promise of MeToo was that this time was going to be different. Harvey Weinstein, massive Democratic donor, huge player in Democratic Party politics and yet he was taken down anyway. The idea was it didn’t matter what team you are on, that we were going to change the culture around this question, and extraordinary gains have been made over the last several years. But a part of this was set up for a collision in the sense that Republicans were never going to play by the rules that the MeToo movement was setting up. And so when a lot of Republicans stood behind Roy Moore, credibly, highly credibly accused of assaulting, just prowling malls and going after 13 year old girls, the most hideous stuff. A lot of Republicans kind of stick behind him and he still ran a competitive race, didn’t even drop out.
And that was happening at the same time that Al Franken was getting accused of groping women during photos that he was taking with them. I think a lot of democratic voters deeply regret the way that Al Franken resigned, the way that he went out, and that has had them turn on some elements of the MeToo movement. And so when this came around, I think people were much less willing to go forward and push it to the degree that they had before Al Franken and up to Al Franken, part because of that experience. A lot of Democrats are saying, “We’re tired of playing by different rules that Republicans are playing by.”
Jaisal Noor: So I’ve been saying for a while that Joe Biden isn’t a complete lock at this point. We’re still relatively early in the Primary process, but New York State just announced they are canceling the Presidential Primary because of the coronavirus endemic and Sanders suspending his campaign. We recently spoke to Jamaal Bowman who’s seeking to unseat a 30 year incumbent whose major backers include Wall Street, weapons manufacturers, and the Israel lobby, and he’s been critical of the Democratic Party’s response, their handling of the coronavirus pandemic.
Speaker 6: The Democratically controlled House unfortunately isn’t being led right now by Progressives. So they’ve fought for a few things that were needed but didn’t go far enough. I mean, the first bailout package focused specifically on large corporations and the wealthy and left small businesses and the working class to fend for themselves. In addition, there are still hospitals struggling to receive PPEs. There are still not enough masks. There are still not enough gloves. There’s still not enough testing with efficient, quick results. There’s still not enough testing sites. So a lot more needs to be done to put pressure on the White House to make sure that those who are most vulnerable in our district receive all of the care and all of the resources they need. And unfortunately that’s not happening right now.
Jaisal Noor: What impact could this have, and do you think these new allegations might change how the Democratic Party approaches the remaining primary?
Ryan Grim: No, I don’t think that the level of allegations that we’re at now will cause a change in the Democratic Primary election. Joe Biden is not going to drop out and he’s not going to be pressured to drop out as long as he’s 10 points up in the polls against President Trump. Now, if more people come forward and if then people start calling for him to drop out and that drives his poll numbers down, then you could see donors coming to him and saying, “We’re not financing this anymore.” But, on the current trajectory, that the campaign is going to plow right through this. They feel like they have the nomination, they’re up 10 points on Trump, and this isn’t going to derail them.
Jaisal Noor: All right, Ryan Grim. Well, thanks for joining us for our first part of this conversation and we’ll talk more about your book, We’ve Got People From Jesse Jackson to Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, in part two of this interview. And thank you for joining us at the Real News Network.
Production: Genevieve Montinar, Taylor Hebden, Andrew Corkery
Studio: Taylor Hebden
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therealnews--2020-04-29--Stir Crazy! Episode #24: Packing Meat!

Stir Crazy! Episode #24: Packing Meat!

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Visual Producer (former)
Raised in southern New Jersey outside Philadelphia, and now residing in Baltimore Maryland, Andrew Corkery worked as a Visual Producer / Editor/ Researcher for the Real News Network. Prior to that he worked for nearly four years as Video Editor for CBS 3 Eyewitness News, and an Investigative Journalist for Spirit News both in Philadelphia. He graduated from Rider University in Lawrenceville, New Jersey in May of 2014 with a Bachelor's degree in Digital Media. While in college Andrew completed a media education and co op work program at CAPA London, working as a researcher and video editor for COAST, a digital strategy and brand film content production company.
Andrew maintains a relentlessly keen interest in all things geopolitics in almost every corner of the globe. He has since applied this passion and interest to his creative and investigative work as a producer, editor, journalist and videographer. One of his most impactful pieces focused on a story outlining how to combat Islamophobia in communities across the world, articulating the differences between Radical Islamists and the vast majority of people who follow Islam, while showing the many layers of nuance, both in politics and religion more broadly. That Story, "Islam in the Riverwards: PART 1 AND 2," along with "Being Black in Bridesburg", a story highlighting the impacts and legacy of racial injustice in a largely white community within Philadelphia, were both published in Spirit News and later featured in write ups from The Philadelphia Inquirer and Philadelphia Magazine.
With Andrew's career expanding experience of living and working abroad in mind, he recognizes the importance of staying connected to the world. The cornerstones of Andrew's work can always be found in uncovering the expansive impact of global events and political issues, while relating them to people's everyday lives, through the mediums of online video, film and writing. Finally, Andrew is currently the Lead Singer and Member Manager of a successful original alternative rock band called Shadowplay, based in Mt. Laurel, NJ, founded in 2008 at Lenape High School. The band has since performed over 200 shows, including performances at such festivals as SXSW, and opening up for bands like Tracy Guns, Weitz and The Parlor Mob.


therealnews--2020-04-29--This is Not a Drill: LIVE, April 29

This is Not a Drill: LIVE, April 29

What does it mean for left organizers to build independent political power after Bernie and in the middle of health, political, and economic crises? Join us for the next episode of This is Not a Drill: LIVE as we talk 2020 political and electoral strategy in the face of a global pandemic. Hosts Adam Gold and Rishi Awatramani are joined by an all-star guest line-up of Maria Svart, Ava Benezra, Andrea Mercado, and Jonathan Matthew Smucker to discuss strategic questions facing left organizers at this crucial historical juncture.
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therealnews--2020-04-29--CARES Act Funding For Native Tribes Reveals Continued US Colonization

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
Jacqueline Luqm… : This is Jacqueline Luqman with the Real News Network .
As if centuries of colonialism , genocide , and near social eraser were not enough , the indigenous people of this country are facing yet another challenge to their existence .
This time it is the spread of the novel coronavirus ( COVID-19 ) among Native communities as well as the ongoing onslaught against them from the United States government .
COVID-19 is wreaking havoc among Native populations , hitting them particularly @ @ @ @ @ @ @ against this virus even worse is the continued disrespect and dismissal of the rights of Native people by the US government .
Joining me to talk about the struggle to fight the coronavirus and the US government that Native people are enduring today is Nick Estes .
Nick Estes is a citizen of the Lower Brule Sioux Tribe and is an Assistant Professor of American Studies at the University of New Mexico .
Professor Estes , thank you so much for joining me .
Nick Estes : Thanks for inviting me on the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Now , Professor Estes the CARES Act was just passed and it ’ s being implemented and there is a provision in the legislation that allocates funding for Native tribes , but there are some problems with the way that provision was written , so there are obviously some problems with the way those funds are suppose to be allocated .
What is going on right now in regard to a lawsuit against the US Treasury Department in relation to the funds that are supposed to be allocated to Native tribes through the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ corporations ?
Nick Estes : Right .
That ’ s a really great question , and I think it deserves a long explanation .
Something that I may be able to do just within the short amount of time , but I ’ ll try my best .
So first of all , the CARES Act was a provision in the relief funding for coronavirus allocated to tribes .
And what we mean by tribes is very kind of murky in the United States because tribes don ’ t get the opportunity or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
But actually those definitions are applied by the federal government .
So for example , Tara Sweeney who is a [ newbeyak 00:02:39 ] indigenous person , Alaska Native who ’ s currently the Assistant Secretary of Indian Affairs for the Department of Interior .
She ’ s the second Native woman to occupy that post .
The first one was , Ada Deer , back in the ’ 70s and ’ 80s and she was a Menominee woman whose tribe was actually terminated by the federal government .
And when Tara @ @ @ @ @ @ @ she began the process of termination of the Mashpee Wampanoag .
People may know them as the mythical kind of encounter between European settlers at the Plymouth Colony and the so-called first Thanksgiving , which we know is a complete kind of rewriting of that history .
And in fact these were colonizers and invaders .
But the Mashpee Wampanoag recently had about 300 acres of their land targeted for taking out of trust status .
And where this really gets into the CARES Act is that the definition of a tribe is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and the federal government and in particular the Department of Interior .
So somebody like Tara Sweeney , who herself is indigenous , is overseeing the definition of other tribes in a very authoritarian system .
It ’ s not democratic .
We don ’ t get to choose who occupies the position of the Secretary of Interior .
And it ’ s important to remember the Department of Interior manages wildlife , public lands and indigenous people .
It ’ s a very peculiar hold over from this period of settler colonialism @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , we ’ re still caught in the system where this department is defining who counts as a tribe and who doesn ’ t count as a tribe .
And if you know anything about the Department of Interior , the Bureau of Land Management , for example , there ’ s a lot of crossover between the oil and gas industry and the energy sectors and the appointments that are made to these particular positions .
And so somebody like Tara Sweeney for example , was a former oil lobbyist .
And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the former vice president of the Arctic Slope Regional Corporation , which is a for-profit company created under the Alaska Native Settlement Claims Act of 1971 .
And this is important to kind of distinguish though .
I mean there are Alaska Native corporations , but many of them were created as a form of kind of government and social welfare system for Native people .
And it wasn ’ t necessarily Alaska Natives ’ choice to have this .
It was something that was imposed .
So here in the Lower 48 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Indian Reorganization Act , and what that means is back in 1935 , during the great depression .
So going back to moments of economic crisis , the United States decided that it was going to change its federal relationship to tribes , and to actually impose a form of government upon us .
And so we didn ’ t really have a choice .
So it ’ s important to remember the Alaskan Native corporations wasn ’ t an internally derived kind of system , corporate system by Alaska Natives .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ varying kind of forms of government , whether it ’ s the village councils or the village government more at a regional level or the Alaska Native corporations themselves .
So it ’ s important to kind of distinguish how those things are being allocated and where that money is going to .
But it does raise the question of whether this money should be allocated to a for-profit enterprise , especially enterprises that are engaged in oil and gas extraction .
And so for example , Arctic Slope , which Tara Sweeney @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is the wealthiest of the 12 existing regional Native corporations with $ 3 billion in annual revenues from oil and gas related assets .
Then that ’ s just something from 2008 .
So what do we make of bailing out a for-profit enterprise ?
We could ask that same question of Indian casinos .
Indian casinos are actually the 13th largest employer in the United States , but they ’ re not receiving any of this money .
So why is it that like an Alaska Native corporation that primarily traffics in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ getting a bailout , when something like an Indian casino isn ’ t .
Jacqueline Luqm… : And that is the basis for this lawsuit .
The fact that large for-profit corporations that are called Alaska Native corporations could potentially receive an outsized proportion of the funds that are allocated or supposed to be allocated to Native tribes through the CARES Act , but then that would have a detrimental impact on the allocated funds or what ’ s left of those funds that would go to actual tribes .
So explain the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ corporations do receive these funds that are allocated for tribes .
And what that means for the rest of the tribes .
Nick Estes : So let ’ s look at Alaska for example .
Alaska is very big .
It ’ s home to a lot of natural resources , oil and gas being one of them .
But also there ’ s a lot of gold mining that happens there .
But if Alaska were an independent country , it would be in the top twenties in terms of landmass , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s also home to more than 200 indigenous nations and much like the indigenous nations here in the United States , state roads do not connect these geographically isolated communities .
A lot of times people have to do overland travel through snowmobiling or snow machines or even air , air flights .
And like some of the reservations here in the lower 48 , many villages don ’ t have running water , making CDC guidelines to constantly wash one ’ s hands a near impossibility .
And many villages are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ things such as physical distancing a near impossibility .
And there ’ s also limited internet access , which makes all these kinds of moves to teach online for school children a near impossibility .
So it raises the question of why is the priority being put on bailing out these for-profit corporations , which may or may not be allocating resources back to these tribes because the conditions that they live in are pre-existing to the coronavirus .
The coronavirus is only exposing the poor quality of life that many Native people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a direct result of ongoing colonialism .
And you see the same kind of factors happening in a place like the Navajo Nation .
And so if we think about the Navajo Nation in comparison to the Alaska Native corporations , the Navajo Nation also engages in oil and gas exploration and extraction activities .
But its economic activities are not getting the same bailout as these ANCs .
So it ’ s important to compare those two cases .
And also many Brule Navajo people don ’ t have access to clean @ @ @ @ @ @ @ which is on the Eastern side within the boundaries of the state of New Mexico .
One out of every three Navajo homes doesn ’ t have access to clean drinking water or running water or electricity .
So these are the conditions that Navajo people are facing , indigenous people are facing , prior to the outbreak .
And so it ’ s really taxing the infrastructure .
And if we think about what is happening in the priorities of this current administration , especially with the stacking of the oil lobbyist @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is moving forward on the Keystone XL pipeline .
Thousands of workers are descending on work sites up in the Northern Great Plains , where I ’ m from , where my people are from .
And these workers are coming from the outside , not only putting themselves at risk , but they ’ re also putting vulnerable communities who already lack the infrastructure , the health infrastructure to deal with COVID-19 .
And if you take the example of the state of New Mexico , we can say that this isn @ @ @ @ @ @ @ isn ’ t about Democrat versus Republican because here from top to bottom in this state , it ’ s a blue state .
It ’ s a democratically controlled state that has benefited immensely from the oil and gas industry .
But in this state , Native people make up 11 % of the population , but we account for 44 % of all COVID-19 cases right now .
Jacqueline Luqm… : Oh my gosh .
Oh my gosh .
I mean this is an epidemic within itself in Native and indigenous @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to talk about the implications of the way that CARES funds could be allocated if they are allocated according to things like landmass or land size or population or even COVID infection rates within a population .
Because there are issues that indigenous communities are facing in regards to all of those particular ways that are not laid out in the CARES legislation .
The issue seems to be , and correct me if I ’ m wrong , that there is no measure for how anybody would decide who gets what funds @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are supposed to be allocated in the CARES Act .
So that is a part of the focus of this legislation that that needs to be addressed .
But what would happen if some entity , the courts or the Department of Treasury decides to determine the allocation of these funds by landmass or how much land a tribe or tribal entity has or controls .
How would that affect other tribes in the nation ?
Nick Estes : That ’ s a really good question because the current sort of formula that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ leak that happened prior to this coming out .
And I think that ’ s important to highlight that there was somebody on the inside , a whistle blower on the inside has been leaking information to the public and letting them know that this formula is based on landmass .
But also there ’ s a question about the kinds of things that count , as far as when you ’ re counting , when you ’ re adding up , what counts is a landmass .
And I brought up earlier @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a lack of roads .
But roads in the Alaska Native corporation cases were being counted as part of the landmass , even though they didn ’ t exist .
And so the formula was this … according to this leak , and these are all speculations .
So it ’ s not true .
It ’ s not necessarily proven yet , but it ’ s speculated that these Alaska Native corporations , or at least it ’ s alleged I should say , that these Alaska Native corporations had kind of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ So they got a kind of a headstart before lower 48 tribes did .
And so they knew what to ask for .
And so that ’ s why you see within the CARES Relief Act you have almost by the hundreds more of claims coming from the Alaska Native corporations and Alaska Native entities than you do out of the lower 48 because they had … The suspicion is that they had a heads up , which means that there ’ s kind of some insider trading happening and that perhaps this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ court case .
This is the charges that are being made against the Treasury but also against the Department of Interior , that Tara Sweeny was letting these corporations know ahead of time that this was going to happen .
And that these were the criteria .
I will say though that it ’ s important to remember that tribes had initially asked for $ 40 billion .
And then the Democrats went forward with asking for $ 20 billion .
And what came out of that after … The reason why the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Republicans didn ’ t want to allocate $ 20 billion .
And so they finally settled on $ 8 billion .
And that ’ s what actually held up the entire stimulus package was the CARES Act .
Because it was a contestation over tribes .
And we know how the Trump administration and his lackeys feel about indigenous people .
It ’ s evident in his derision of Pocahontas , who ’ s a real historical figure .
It ’ s evident in how he targeted tribes in the Northeast , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ own casino enterprises and actually advocated against letting their federal recognition .
And we see that with the appointing of oil and gas lobbyists within the Department of Interior to continue to erode tribal sovereignty , but to continue to sacrifice tribal lands for the greater kind of economic gain .
And so what we really need to think about is that this is a colonial system .
This is pitting Alaska Natives against the lower 48 .
This isn ’ t our decision .
This isn ’ t a contest that we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ implemented on us from the top down by people we didn ’ t elect .
So we didn ’ t elect the secretary of interior .
We didn ’ t elect Tara Sweeney .
So it ’ s a very authoritarian system .
There ’ s no other way to describe it .
And so when the United States is pointing the finger at other governments for being authoritarian , all you have to look is at the indigenous people of this country to say , “ Hey , look why are we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ end of this .
Why is it that we were the thing that held up everything ?
” And it ’ s not we don ’ t want to be competing .
The response should not be one of competition where we ’ re trying to get a small slice of the already really tiny piece of the pie .
The values that need to be implemented are for access to free and accessible testing .
We need to have bailouts for tribal industries .
We need to consider fact that 70 % @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on Indian reservations .
So this hyper emphasis on reservations is the site where the aid needs to go forgets that here in the city of Albuquerque , where I ’ m calling from , 10 % of the Navajo Nation lives here in this city , but they ’ re not being talked about because the way that this country and the federal government perceives of these problems , it ’ s somewhere out elsewhere ?
It ’ s not somewhere that lives in New York City or Washington , DC or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have to reconsider that the tribal populations are primarily not rule-based populations .
And so we have to think about urban healthcare , but also thinking about at the end of this that this can ’ t be the system for allocating life chances in this country .
We can ’ t be competing for a scarcity of resources and that we should be operating on an indigenous principle of abundance and care for each other .
Jacqueline Luqm… : And professor , I ’ m glad you brought up the point that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ actually live on reservations because I feel like that goes back to what I said early about the nearest social eraser of indigenous people and the lifestyles and folk ways and traditions and just their very existence and how indigenous people live .
And we are seeing this play out even as states are becoming more proactive or more stringent in collecting demographic data in relation to the infection rates and the spread of the coronavirus because some states don ’ t actually record indigenous people separately as they do people who are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ African Americans , Latinos .
Not all people designate indigenous people as a separate demographic outside of other , when they ’ re recording the people who are infected with coronavirus .
What impact does that have on the allocation of these meager funds ?
Because from 40 million to 8 million , billion dollars , that ’ s not a lot of money to address the structural needs that people have to combat this virus .
But what does that mean when people are not even accurately recorded in the number of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this country in the first place ?
Nick Estes : It means a lot .
I mean it gets into the question of why or how we define indigenous in the first place .
So I want to take a step back and think about how all of a sudden crossing a border don ’ t count as indigenous .
And if we think about how even the Guatemalan cases that have arisen , haven arisen because of deportations from the United States .
And where did those so-called deportees , mostly indigenous @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ?
They came in contact from the United States , but they don ’ t necessarily count within how we ’ re counting indigeneity .
And so it ’ s this problematic that really gets down to the purpose of a settler colonial society .
The settler colonial society is organized primarily around the eraser of indigenous people , because indigeneity actually represents land .
And the more indigenous people you have , the more land that is under question .
And the more claims to land that you have under question .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ back to Trump ’ s allegation of , “ These don ’ t look like Indians to me , ” in front of a congressional hearing .
What he was saying is that these tribal communities within the Northeast don ’ t look phenotypically like me .
For example , as you know , somebody from the Northern Plains , because we kind of stand in for like what people think of indigenous .
But they had a mixed heritage .
Many of them have African heritage .
And that ’ s important @ @ @ @ @ @ @ white supremacist kind of orientation of who counts as what .
That really determines who is indigenous .
And so indigenous people , we don ’ t really see our … I ’ ll say this , the president of he Oglala Sioux Tribe , Julian Running Bear once said , he said , “ We are a multiracial nation of people .
We are black , we have light skin , some of us are browner , but we are a nation first and foremost before we are a racial category.
” @ @ @ @ @ @ @ important to remember that sovereignty , who we claim as our own , is incredibly important at how we count these things .
But also we should not seed the definition of indigeneity to a settler state .
Jacqueline Luqm… : So what do we look for as this lawsuit , which is in federal court .
I believe it ’ s in federal court .
And there should be some ruling at least by the beginning of the next week as allocated funds are slated to be disbursed on April 26th .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ that was mentioned in the lawsuit .
What should we be looking for as this lawsuit makes its way through the court system and what can we do ?
Regular citizens , our viewers , what can we do to assist members of the indigenous communities in combating this scourge as it goes on , as it affects all of us ?
And then at the end of this Professor Estes , what can we do to address and to resolve this continued onslaught from this settler colonialist , white supremacist government ?
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ administration .
Let ’ s make this clear .
This government on our indigenous family members here in this country .
Tell us what can we do .
Nick Estes : So the allocation of resources and the health of indigenous people and the integrity of our sovereignty and our land base are only as good as the agreements , the original agreements we made with this settler government .
And it ’ s everyone ’ s obligation .
These are in the forms of treaties .
These in the forms of negotiated @ @ @ @ @ @ @ These are in the forms of agreements that have been ratified through Congress or enacted through executive order .
These are everybody ’ s responsibilities to uphold and to protect .
So for example , the US Constitution .
I think it ’ s the … It says that treaties are the supreme law of the land .
And the only way to rectify this particular situation is for this government , not necessarily this government , but the people on this land to uphold those original agreements .
And this means a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of actual resources , and I ’ m not just talking about money , I ’ m talking about land as well , that were guaranteed through these original agreements that are defined and negotiated by indigenous principles and according to indigenous law .
This doesn ’ t mean separatism .
This doesn ’ t mean indigenous people are going to somehow do what Europeans did to us .
It means- Jacqueline Luqm… : That is always the fear though , isn ’ t it ?
Nick Estes : It is .
And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the great replacement , the fear of the so called white genocide .
These tropes that we constantly hear primarily from the reactionary kind of racist right wing , that is Trump ’ s base .
But most kind of everyday people , I think if they understood the situation is still colonial with indigenous people , they would be morally outraged to understand that this kind of system is in place , this kind of authoritarianism by the federal government is still in place .
And that indigenous peoples still can not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ democracy , our own principles of nationhood , and our own principles of coexistence .
And so as this court case unfolds , I think people should be asking themselves , why is it that the Navajo Nation , much like many individual people in this country who don ’ t have access to healthcare , are resorting to GoFundMe .
An entire nation of people is resorting to a GoFundMe account to address a pandemic that , by law , the federal government is responsible for allocating resources to .
And so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s not just like this was a meme that appeared in Indian country kind of circles was that there was , “ Oh you ’ re out of a job .
You don ’ t have good access to healthcare .
You may not be able to drive your car to work anymore.
” And it ’ s like , “ Oh no , Americans are experiencing what it ’ s like to be an Indian for 30 days.
” But it ’ s not about that .
It ’ s not about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ should not be about a zero-sum game .
It ’ s not about an oppression Olympics .
We should be looking at what happening to our black relatives , our black brothers and sisters , as well as our Chicano [ inaudible 00:27:48 ] relatives and brothers and sisters .
We understand that we are not all in this together , when somebody says that .
That some of us will be affected more .
And the last shall come first .
That should be always our principal , when we ’ re @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And it begins with the land .
It begins with acknowledging those original agreements and understanding that it ’ s everybody ’ s responsibility to uphold them .
Jacqueline Luqm… : Well , Professor Nick Estes , thank you so much for spending the time today to talk about not just this lawsuit that is against the US Treasury Department for the fair allocation of funds to indigenous people throughout this country , but also for making it clear that Native people still live under a very authoritarian , white supremacist , colonialist @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And it is all of our responsibility to dismantle that system , not just for our Native relatives , but for all of us and all of our benefit as well .
Thank you so much for joining me .
Nick Estes : Thanks for having me on , Jacqueline .
Jacqueline Luqm… : And thank you for watching .
This is Jacquelyn Luqman with the Real News Network from the belly of the beast , Washington , DC .

The recent CARES Act is another example of the continued effort to dismiss Indigenous peoples’ sovereignty, and doesn’t provide adequate funding to fight COVID-19.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Jacqueline Luqm…: This is Jacqueline Luqman with the Real News Network. As if centuries of colonialism, genocide, and near social eraser were not enough, the indigenous people of this country are facing yet another challenge to their existence. This time it is the spread of the novel coronavirus (COVID-19) among Native communities as well as the ongoing onslaught against them from the United States government. COVID-19 is wreaking havoc among Native populations, hitting them particularly hard. But what makes their fight against this virus even worse is the continued disrespect and dismissal of the rights of Native people by the US government. Joining me to talk about the struggle to fight the coronavirus and the US government that Native people are enduring today is Nick Estes. Nick Estes is a citizen of the Lower Brule Sioux Tribe and is an Assistant Professor of American Studies at the University of New Mexico. Professor Estes, thank you so much for joining me.
Nick Estes: Thanks for inviting me on the show, Jacqueline.
Jacqueline Luqm…: Now, Professor Estes the CARES Act was just passed and it’s being implemented and there is a provision in the legislation that allocates funding for Native tribes, but there are some problems with the way that provision was written, so there are obviously some problems with the way those funds are suppose to be allocated. What is going on right now in regard to a lawsuit against the US Treasury Department in relation to the funds that are supposed to be allocated to Native tribes through the CARES Act but could go actually to corporations?
Nick Estes: Right. That’s a really great question, and I think it deserves a long explanation. Something that I may be able to do just within the short amount of time, but I’ll try my best. So first of all, the CARES Act was a provision in the relief funding for coronavirus allocated to tribes. And what we mean by tribes is very kind of murky in the United States because tribes don’t get the opportunity or have the autonomy to do to self-define. But actually those definitions are applied by the federal government. So for example, Tara Sweeney who is a [newbeyak 00:02:39] indigenous person, Alaska Native who’s currently the Assistant Secretary of Indian Affairs for the Department of Interior. She’s the second Native woman to occupy that post. The first one was, Ada Deer, back in the ’70s and ’80s and she was a Menominee woman whose tribe was actually terminated by the federal government.
And when Tara Sweeney was appointed to this position, she began the process of termination of the Mashpee Wampanoag. People may know them as the mythical kind of encounter between European settlers at the Plymouth Colony and the so-called first Thanksgiving, which we know is a complete kind of rewriting of that history. And in fact these were colonizers and invaders. But the Mashpee Wampanoag recently had about 300 acres of their land targeted for taking out of trust status. And where this really gets into the CARES Act is that the definition of a tribe is actually determined by the United States government and the federal government and in particular the Department of Interior. So somebody like Tara Sweeney, who herself is indigenous, is overseeing the definition of other tribes in a very authoritarian system. It’s not democratic. We don’t get to choose who occupies the position of the Secretary of Interior.
And it’s important to remember the Department of Interior manages wildlife, public lands and indigenous people. It’s a very peculiar hold over from this period of settler colonialism from the 19th century. But nonetheless, we’re still caught in the system where this department is defining who counts as a tribe and who doesn’t count as a tribe. And if you know anything about the Department of Interior, the Bureau of Land Management, for example, there’s a lot of crossover between the oil and gas industry and the energy sectors and the appointments that are made to these particular positions.
And so somebody like Tara Sweeney for example, was a former oil lobbyist. And not only that, she was also the former vice president of the Arctic Slope Regional Corporation, which is a for-profit company created under the Alaska Native Settlement Claims Act of 1971. And this is important to kind of distinguish though. I mean there are Alaska Native corporations, but many of them were created as a form of kind of government and social welfare system for Native people. And it wasn’t necessarily Alaska Natives’ choice to have this. It was something that was imposed.
So here in the Lower 48, American Indians have what we call the Indian Reorganization Act, and what that means is back in 1935, during the great depression. So going back to moments of economic crisis, the United States decided that it was going to change its federal relationship to tribes, and to actually impose a form of government upon us. And so we didn’t really have a choice. So it’s important to remember the Alaskan Native corporations wasn’t an internally derived kind of system, corporate system by Alaska Natives. And there’s different kind of varying kind of forms of government, whether it’s the village councils or the village government more at a regional level or the Alaska Native corporations themselves. So it’s important to kind of distinguish how those things are being allocated and where that money is going to.
But it does raise the question of whether this money should be allocated to a for-profit enterprise, especially enterprises that are engaged in oil and gas extraction. And so for example, Arctic Slope, which Tara Sweeney was the former vice president of, is the wealthiest of the 12 existing regional Native corporations with $3 billion in annual revenues from oil and gas related assets. Then that’s just something from 2008. So what do we make of bailing out a for-profit enterprise? We could ask that same question of Indian casinos. Indian casinos are actually the 13th largest employer in the United States, but they’re not receiving any of this money. So why is it that like an Alaska Native corporation that primarily traffics in oil and gas exploration and extraction is getting a bailout, when something like an Indian casino isn’t.
Jacqueline Luqm…: And that is the basis for this lawsuit. The fact that large for-profit corporations that are called Alaska Native corporations could potentially receive an outsized proportion of the funds that are allocated or supposed to be allocated to Native tribes through the CARES Act, but then that would have a detrimental impact on the allocated funds or what’s left of those funds that would go to actual tribes. So explain the impact of that if these Alaska Native corporations do receive these funds that are allocated for tribes. And what that means for the rest of the tribes.
Nick Estes: So let’s look at Alaska for example. Alaska is very big. It’s home to a lot of natural resources, oil and gas being one of them. But also there’s a lot of gold mining that happens there. But if Alaska were an independent country, it would be in the top twenties in terms of landmass, or in the top 20. It’s also home to more than 200 indigenous nations and much like the indigenous nations here in the United States, state roads do not connect these geographically isolated communities. A lot of times people have to do overland travel through snowmobiling or snow machines or even air, air flights. And like some of the reservations here in the lower 48, many villages don’t have running water, making CDC guidelines to constantly wash one’s hands a near impossibility. And many villages are overcrowded or have housing shortages, making things such as physical distancing a near impossibility. And there’s also limited internet access, which makes all these kinds of moves to teach online for school children a near impossibility.
So it raises the question of why is the priority being put on bailing out these for-profit corporations, which may or may not be allocating resources back to these tribes because the conditions that they live in are pre-existing to the coronavirus. The coronavirus is only exposing the poor quality of life that many Native people live in. And that’s a direct result of ongoing colonialism. And you see the same kind of factors happening in a place like the Navajo Nation. And so if we think about the Navajo Nation in comparison to the Alaska Native corporations, the Navajo Nation also engages in oil and gas exploration and extraction activities. But its economic activities are not getting the same bailout as these ANCs. So it’s important to compare those two cases. And also many Brule Navajo people don’t have access to clean drinking water on the Eastern Agency, which is on the Eastern side within the boundaries of the state of New Mexico. One out of every three Navajo homes doesn’t have access to clean drinking water or running water or electricity.
So these are the conditions that Navajo people are facing, indigenous people are facing, prior to the outbreak. And so it’s really taxing the infrastructure. And if we think about what is happening in the priorities of this current administration, especially with the stacking of the oil lobbyist within the Department of Interior, Trump is moving forward on the Keystone XL pipeline. Thousands of workers are descending on work sites up in the Northern Great Plains, where I’m from, where my people are from. And these workers are coming from the outside, not only putting themselves at risk, but they’re also putting vulnerable communities who already lack the infrastructure, the health infrastructure to deal with COVID-19. And if you take the example of the state of New Mexico, we can say that this isn’t about party lines. This isn’t about Democrat versus Republican because here from top to bottom in this state, it’s a blue state. It’s a democratically controlled state that has benefited immensely from the oil and gas industry. But in this state, Native people make up 11% of the population, but we account for 44% of all COVID-19 cases right now.
Jacqueline Luqm…: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I mean this is an epidemic within itself in Native and indigenous communities. Professor Estes, I want to talk about the implications of the way that CARES funds could be allocated if they are allocated according to things like landmass or land size or population or even COVID infection rates within a population. Because there are issues that indigenous communities are facing in regards to all of those particular ways that are not laid out in the CARES legislation. The issue seems to be, and correct me if I’m wrong, that there is no measure for how anybody would decide who gets what funds on who gets how much funds that are supposed to be allocated in the CARES Act.
So that is a part of the focus of this legislation that that needs to be addressed. But what would happen if some entity, the courts or the Department of Treasury decides to determine the allocation of these funds by landmass or how much land a tribe or tribal entity has or controls. How would that affect other tribes in the nation?
Nick Estes: That’s a really good question because the current sort of formula that has been created, there was a leak that happened prior to this coming out. And I think that’s important to highlight that there was somebody on the inside, a whistle blower on the inside has been leaking information to the public and letting them know that this formula is based on landmass. But also there’s a question about the kinds of things that count, as far as when you’re counting, when you’re adding up, what counts is a landmass.
And I brought up earlier about how roads … There’s a lack of roads. But roads in the Alaska Native corporation cases were being counted as part of the landmass, even though they didn’t exist. And so the formula was this … according to this leak, and these are all speculations. So it’s not true. It’s not necessarily proven yet, but it’s speculated that these Alaska Native corporations, or at least it’s alleged I should say, that these Alaska Native corporations had kind of the first look over the formula. So they got a kind of a headstart before lower 48 tribes did.
And so they knew what to ask for. And so that’s why you see within the CARES Relief Act you have almost by the hundreds more of claims coming from the Alaska Native corporations and Alaska Native entities than you do out of the lower 48 because they had … The suspicion is that they had a heads up, which means that there’s kind of some insider trading happening and that perhaps this is the allegation. This is the court case. This is the charges that are being made against the Treasury but also against the Department of Interior, that Tara Sweeny was letting these corporations know ahead of time that this was going to happen. And that these were the criteria.
I will say though that it’s important to remember that tribes had initially asked for $40 billion. And then the Democrats went forward with asking for $20 billion. And what came out of that after … The reason why the stimulus package was held up is because the Republicans didn’t want to allocate $20 billion. And so they finally settled on $8 billion. And that’s what actually held up the entire stimulus package was the CARES Act. Because it was a contestation over tribes. And we know how the Trump administration and his lackeys feel about indigenous people. It’s evident in his derision of Pocahontas, who’s a real historical figure. It’s evident in how he targeted tribes in the Northeast, who he saw as competition to his own casino enterprises and actually advocated against letting their federal recognition.
And we see that with the appointing of oil and gas lobbyists within the Department of Interior to continue to erode tribal sovereignty, but to continue to sacrifice tribal lands for the greater kind of economic gain. And so what we really need to think about is that this is a colonial system. This is pitting Alaska Natives against the lower 48. This isn’t our decision. This isn’t a contest that we tried to implement. It was actually implemented on us from the top down by people we didn’t elect. So we didn’t elect the secretary of interior. We didn’t elect Tara Sweeney.
So it’s a very authoritarian system. There’s no other way to describe it. And so when the United States is pointing the finger at other governments for being authoritarian, all you have to look is at the indigenous people of this country to say, “Hey, look why are we the last to be considered at the end of this. Why is it that we were the thing that held up everything?” And it’s not we don’t want to be competing. The response should not be one of competition where we’re trying to get a small slice of the already really tiny piece of the pie. The values that need to be implemented are for access to free and accessible testing. We need to have bailouts for tribal industries. We need to consider fact that 70% of tribally enrolled people do not live on Indian reservations.
So this hyper emphasis on reservations is the site where the aid needs to go forgets that here in the city of Albuquerque, where I’m calling from, 10% of the Navajo Nation lives here in this city, but they’re not being talked about because the way that this country and the federal government perceives of these problems, it’s somewhere out elsewhere? It’s not somewhere that lives in New York City or Washington, DC or Albuquerque, New Mexico. So we have to reconsider that the tribal populations are primarily not rule-based populations. And so we have to think about urban healthcare, but also thinking about at the end of this that this can’t be the system for allocating life chances in this country. We can’t be competing for a scarcity of resources and that we should be operating on an indigenous principle of abundance and care for each other.
Jacqueline Luqm…: And professor, I’m glad you brought up the point that so many indigenous people don’t actually live on reservations because I feel like that goes back to what I said early about the nearest social eraser of indigenous people and the lifestyles and folk ways and traditions and just their very existence and how indigenous people live. And we are seeing this play out even as states are becoming more proactive or more stringent in collecting demographic data in relation to the infection rates and the spread of the coronavirus because some states don’t actually record indigenous people separately as they do people who are infected with coronavirus, as they do African Americans, Latinos.
Not all people designate indigenous people as a separate demographic outside of other, when they’re recording the people who are infected with coronavirus. What impact does that have on the allocation of these meager funds? Because from 40 million to 8 million, billion dollars, that’s not a lot of money to address the structural needs that people have to combat this virus. But what does that mean when people are not even accurately recorded in the number of cases of people who have coronavirus in this country in the first place?
Nick Estes: It means a lot. I mean it gets into the question of why or how we define indigenous in the first place. So I want to take a step back and think about how all of a sudden crossing a border don’t count as indigenous. And if we think about how even the Guatemalan cases that have arisen, haven arisen because of deportations from the United States. And where did those so-called deportees, mostly indigenous people come in contact with the coronavirus? They came in contact from the United States, but they don’t necessarily count within how we’re counting indigeneity. And so it’s this problematic that really gets down to the purpose of a settler colonial society. The settler colonial society is organized primarily around the eraser of indigenous people, because indigeneity actually represents land. And the more indigenous people you have, the more land that is under question. And the more claims to land that you have under question.
But it also intersects with … Going back to Trump’s allegation of, “These don’t look like Indians to me,” in front of a congressional hearing. What he was saying is that these tribal communities within the Northeast don’t look phenotypically like me. For example, as you know, somebody from the Northern Plains, because we kind of stand in for like what people think of indigenous. But they had a mixed heritage. Many of them have African heritage. And that’s important to remember that it’s the white supremacist kind of orientation of who counts as what. That really determines who is indigenous.
And so indigenous people, we don’t really see our … I’ll say this, the president of he Oglala Sioux Tribe, Julian Running Bear once said, he said, “We are a multiracial nation of people. We are black, we have light skin, some of us are browner, but we are a nation first and foremost before we are a racial category.” And so I think that’s important to remember that sovereignty, who we claim as our own, is incredibly important at how we count these things. But also we should not seed the definition of indigeneity to a settler state.
Jacqueline Luqm…: So what do we look for as this lawsuit, which is in federal court. I believe it’s in federal court. And there should be some ruling at least by the beginning of the next week as allocated funds are slated to be disbursed on April 26th. I believe that is the target date that was mentioned in the lawsuit. What should we be looking for as this lawsuit makes its way through the court system and what can we do?Regular citizens, our viewers, what can we do to assist members of the indigenous communities in combating this scourge as it goes on, as it affects all of us? And then at the end of this Professor Estes, what can we do to address and to resolve this continued onslaught from this settler colonialist, white supremacist government? Because it’s not just this administration. Let’s make this clear. This government on our indigenous family members here in this country. Tell us what can we do.
Nick Estes: So the allocation of resources and the health of indigenous people and the integrity of our sovereignty and our land base are only as good as the agreements, the original agreements we made with this settler government. And it’s everyone’s obligation. These are in the forms of treaties. These in the forms of negotiated kind of coexistence in some cases. These are in the forms of agreements that have been ratified through Congress or enacted through executive order. These are everybody’s responsibilities to uphold and to protect.
So for example, the US Constitution. I think it’s the … It says that treaties are the supreme law of the land. And the only way to rectify this particular situation is for this government, not necessarily this government, but the people on this land to uphold those original agreements. And this means a permanent, adequate, and humane allocation of actual resources, and I’m not just talking about money, I’m talking about land as well, that were guaranteed through these original agreements that are defined and negotiated by indigenous principles and according to indigenous law. This doesn’t mean separatism. This doesn’t mean indigenous people are going to somehow do what Europeans did to us. It means-
Jacqueline Luqm…: That is always the fear though, isn’t it?
Nick Estes: It is. And it’s the whole thing about the great replacement, the fear of the so called white genocide. These tropes that we constantly hear primarily from the reactionary kind of racist right wing, that is Trump’s base. But most kind of everyday people, I think if they understood the situation is still colonial with indigenous people, they would be morally outraged to understand that this kind of system is in place, this kind of authoritarianism by the federal government is still in place. And that indigenous peoples still cannot operate according to our own principles of democracy, our own principles of nationhood, and our own principles of coexistence.
And so as this court case unfolds, I think people should be asking themselves, why is it that the Navajo Nation, much like many individual people in this country who don’t have access to healthcare, are resorting to GoFundMe. An entire nation of people is resorting to a GoFundMe account to address a pandemic that, by law, the federal government is responsible for allocating resources to. And so this is a question, it’s not just like this was a meme that appeared in Indian country kind of circles was that there was, “Oh you’re out of a job. You don’t have good access to healthcare. You may not be able to drive your car to work anymore.” And it’s like, “Oh no, Americans are experiencing what it’s like to be an Indian for 30 days.”
But it’s not about that. It’s not about a race to the bottom. It should not be about a zero-sum game. It’s not about an oppression Olympics. We should be looking at what happening to our black relatives, our black brothers and sisters, as well as our Chicano [inaudible 00:27:48] relatives and brothers and sisters. We understand that we are not all in this together, when somebody says that. That some of us will be affected more. And the last shall come first. That should be always our principal, when we’re talking about justice in this country. And it begins with the land. It begins with acknowledging those original agreements and understanding that it’s everybody’s responsibility to uphold them.
Jacqueline Luqm…: Well, Professor Nick Estes, thank you so much for spending the time today to talk about not just this lawsuit that is against the US Treasury Department for the fair allocation of funds to indigenous people throughout this country, but also for making it clear that Native people still live under a very authoritarian, white supremacist, colonialist oppression through the United States government. And it is all of our responsibility to dismantle that system, not just for our Native relatives, but for all of us and all of our benefit as well. Thank you so much for joining me.
Nick Estes: Thanks for having me on, Jacqueline.
Jacqueline Luqm…: And thank you for watching. This is Jacquelyn Luqman with the Real News Network from the belly of the beast, Washington, DC.
Production: Genevieve Montinar, Taylor Hebden
Studio: Taylor Hebden
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