therealnews--2020-04-01--Ireland Vows To Treat All COVID-19 Patients For Free

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
Simon Harris : This is a virus that knows no borders and no boundaries , and there are no easy options .
If there were , we ’ d take them .
But we can show the world what can be achieved through intensive sustained public health action .
At a time when we need national unity of purpose , we must , of course , have equality of treatment .
Patients with this virus will be treated for free and they ’ ll be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hospital service .
As I teach the guidelines , today I received government approval that , for the duration of this crisis , the state will take control of all private hospital facilities and manage all of the resources for the common benefit of all of our people .
There can be no room for public versus private when it comes to pandemic .
Kim Brown : Welcome to the real news , I ’ m Kim Brown .
That was the Irish Minister of Health , Simon Harris , addressing the island @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and you heard him right .
All patients who are dealing with the COVID-19 infection will be treated for free .
And , in addition , all private hospitals have been made public , nationalized , and will remain so during the duration of the pandemic .
And as we sit here in the US , dealing with our own COVID-19 pandemic crisis , hearing news like that coming out of Ireland is absolutely stunning .
And we are here to learn more about what led to this discussion and the ramifications therein @ @ @ @ @ @ @ re joined with Jack Horgan Jones .
Now , Jack is a reporter with the Irish Times , which is a national newspaper based in Dublin , where he writes about public affairs and policy issues .
He is joining us today from Dublin .
Jack , thank you so much for being here .
Jack Horgan Jon… : My pleasure , Kim .
Great to be here .
Kim Brown : Given the state of the American healthcare system , and the fact that we ’ re facing this awful deadly pandemic @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , step up in this way is quite remarkable .
We want you to bring us up to speed on this .
First of all , was this a plan that had already been discussed , and the outbreak of the pandemic helped to hasten this along ?
Or was this exclusively in response to the COVID-19 outbreak ?
Jack Horgan Jon… : The latter .
It was very much an emergency measure deployed in response to the Coronavirus pandemic .
The Irish healthcare system has always been stratified and separated into public @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ re quite unusual in a European context .
People think of European healthcare and they think of things like the UK ’ s National Health Service .
We don ’ t really have an equivalent here .
We have an organizing body called , The Health Service Executive , but there is a very large private hospital sector here .
And indeed the private insurance sector will be bigger in Ireland and more important to healthcare service users then will be the case in other European democracies of other states in the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ development .
And what makes it even more remarkable is that the party that ’ s doing it is , in fact , probably the party that will be least likely to do it in peacetime circumstances .
The current government , the caretaker government , is led by Fine Gael , who are a center right party in the Christian Democrat mold , and certainly would be a socially liberal very much in that center right orthodoxy .
So a step , like this , shows just how profound a shock to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and how dramatic the policy response has been , totally unprecedented .
Worth pointing out , as well , again , as you did in your intro , that this isn ’ t a forever thing .
This is very much only during the time of the pandemic , and is being done with the acquiescence of the private healthcare system .
But , again , it ’ s worth pointing out that they are going to be paid for this .
They ’ re doing it on a not-for-profit basis , but @ @ @ @ @ @ @ costs from the state .
Now , I went and I asked how much they were going to get .
We don ’ t actually have a figure for that yet , but I bet you anything it ’ s not going to be a small one .
Kim Brown : Well , let ’ s talk about how the Irish healthcare system is responding to the COVID-19 pandemic .
I mean , obviously here in the United States , we are in dire straits , where our healthcare professionals , doctors , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the proper protective gear in order to treat patients .
We are also dealing with a tremendous deficit of COVID-19 tests , even determine the rate of the infection here in the United States .
And , unfortunately , this week the US has overtaken China and Italy for the number of COVID-19 infections .
In your opinion , how is this being handled by the healthcare professionals in Ireland and the politicians , as well ?
Jack Horgan Jon… : It ’ s a little early to judge just how effective the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we ’ ll only really know that in a couple of months time , when we see just how many people are hospitalized and , indeed , tragically how many people will have lost their lives to this .
I think , certainly , if you look at the countries that seem to have taken this well , the South Koreas and the Japans of this world , our response , the policy response has been more inline with those countries .
It ’ s been pretty well organized from the start based @ @ @ @ @ @ @ first case on the 29th of February , so just almost a month ago .
And then we had our first death on the 10th .
Since then , we have something in the region of 1800 positive cases , but only 19 deaths .
You can see from that , that probably our testing system is discovering quite a lot of those positive cases .
We ’ re finding quite a few of those .
In terms of how the healthcare system is going to respond to that .
While we ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ decent testing system , the healthcare system in Ireland has suffered from decades of under investment .
We do have a problem in terms of waiting lists , particularly in the public side of the system .
People take a long time to get elective procedures and , indeed , elective procedures that can be quite important .
And we have quite a low rate of intensive care beds per capita of population .
In fact , one of the lowest in Europe .
So while we ’ re at a early stage @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hasn ’ t been that many hospitalizations , about 30 % of the people , so far , have been hospitalized , and I think only 30 or 40 cases in intensive care .
The sense is that we can ’ t deal with a big surge .
We can ’ t deal with a massive number of people needing ICU beds , so we ’ ve been frantically trying to add to our intensive care capacity .
But only time will tell if those efforts are successful , because , obviously , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ from under investment over a very long period of time .
Kim Brown : On Friday , March 20 , today is the 27th , it was revealed that the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom , Boris Johnson , has tested positive for the Coronavirus .
And looking from a distance , at how the UK , and their national healthcare system has handled the outbreak , or poorly handled the outbreak , given your proximity to the United Kingdom , looking at your neighbors , are you glad that you live @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , at this moment ?
Jack Horgan Jon… : I ’ m certainly glad that our policy response has been pretty consistent so far .
As I said , we ’ ve seemed to have chosen our path early , and more or less stuck to that .
There has been some changes around the testing criteria , who gets tested and who doesn ’ t .
But , more or less , our policy has been consistent , whereas we look across the water , across the Irish Sea , and we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ flopping , going from this vague idea of hurt immunity , and then going almost 180 turn and trying to move into a containment strategy after that Imperial College paper that , I think , was widely circulated .
Yeah , we do appreciate that .
But then on the flip side , while I think college response has been bizarre in the UK and consistent here , I think that the UK NHS with all its capacities is probably better prepared to take on a task like this , from on acute @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hospital system .
It ’ s like you ’ re happy with the policy approach , but do we have the system rightly to receive that surge in patients that is going to be coming into the hospital system in the weeks and , indeed , months ahead ?
Kim Brown : Jack , I want to circle back to something that you said earlier in our discussion .
The private system , the hospitals that are now being made public , at least through the duration of the pandemic , is it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ people of Ireland will say , “ No , we don ’ t want to go back to a two-tiered system of public and private .
We like this nationalized system , and this is something we ’ d like to keep.
” Do you see any sentiments , or have you… Is there that undercurrent in the conversation as the pandemic is going on ?
Jack Horgan Jon… : I think certainly there is widespread dissatisfaction with the model of healthcare provision that we have chosen in this country .
For whatever @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a lot of complex and historical reasons why we got the kind of weird mishmash of American and European systems that we have .
People then don ’ t have much confidence , certainly in the bureaucracy of the system , and the adequacy of the service provisions .
So there is this large rump of dissatisfaction right there with the health service in Ireland .
Now that they have nationalized the private hospitals albeit on a temporary basis , I think it ’ s going to be one of those things that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to put that entirely back in the bottle after this crisis abates , when there is such widespread dissatisfaction .
I ’ m going to give you another example .
The housing market here .
We ’ ve been going through a long and very acute housing crisis and rental crisis .
And during that time , the government has said that it ’ s unable to introduce a rent freeze across the nation , because of these very strong constitutional protections about the right to private property that exists in Ireland .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ , they introduced that rent freeze overnight , so that made a mockery of their reasoning for not introducing one prior to this .
And they said , “ There ’ s a clause in the constitution , which cites the common good , and this is clearly the common good.
” I think it ’ s going to be very difficult on issues like rent freeze , on issues like the maintenance of a clearly inadequate public healthcare system , to go back and say , “ Well , we did that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in crisis , but now we ’ re going back to that system that you ’ re all dissatisfied with.
” There ’ s another example , as well .
They effectively nationalized the childcare system , the early years childcare system , crashes or kindergartens that you call them in America .
They made every employee of kindergarten a state employee effectively overnight in a effort to keep that system open when the crashes reopen .
As a result of that , people aren ’ t having to pay these enormous fees @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , 2000 Euros a month , that many families were having to find .
People aren ’ t going to accept , at the end of this crisis , that this is just re-instituted .
I think the profound and lasting effects on the political economy of societies , not only in Ireland , but in the United States and elsewhere around the world of the COVID-19 , that pandemic , is going to be far-reaching and long lasting , I think .
Kim Brown : And lastly , Jack , I know @ @ @ @ @ @ @ wanted to get an idea of what Dublin is like right now .
What are the streets like ?
What is the sentiment , the feelings of people , as we ’ re dealing with something completely unprecedented across the globe ?
Tell us about your observations from Dublin .
Jack Horgan Jon… : I think in common with a lot of cities round the world , there ’ s a strange atmosphere .
I mean , I went for a run this morning downtown , which usually you wouldn ’ t be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s just too many people around .
But I went down just to take advantage of the empty streets , and while there are fewer people around , there is this edgy funny feeling .
We went into a form of lockdown quite early , on the 12th of this month .
The 12th of March , we closed all universities , crashes closed all schools .
And since then , they ’ ve been gradually ramping those measures .
We have been retrenching into the home , and I think that people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ ve been told to self-isolate if there ’ s been any kind of symptoms .
There is a good community spirit , I think , and I think we ’ ll find that in common with a lot of other countries that are encountering this .
There ’ s no sense of civil unrest or anything like that .
The police force , while that is more visible than it has been .
There ’ s a tradition in Ireland , the policing by concent .
Our police force has always been @ @ @ @ @ @ @ visible military presence on the streets , but the most visible element of that is a naval ship in the Dublin Dock , which is being used as a testing center .
So there ’ s no sense of the military coming in to aide the civil para in a meaningful way , and no sense of mass societal breakdown or anything like that .
It will be interesting to see if that esprit de corps that has emerged is long lasting .
There are indications that people are buying into the message @ @ @ @ @ @ @ together .
There was a lovely moment yesterday evening where around the country at 8:00 PM , everyone stood at their doors and applauded the healthcare workers , the front line healthcare workers of the nation , because they are facing a lot of the same risks , and a lot of the same press that you guys in America .
We are facing that personal protective equipment shortfall , as well .
We are finding it difficult to source tests on the international market .
There are a lot of commonalities of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ but , as we ’ ve seen , there are differences .
And , perhaps , in time we ’ ll see profound and significant differences in how states are approaching their response to this .
Kim Brown : We ’ ve been speaking with Jack Horgan Jones .
He is a reporter .
He covers public affairs and policy for the Irish Times .
We ’ ve been talking about the nationalization of Irish private hospitals and the announcement from their health minister that patients dealing with the COVID-19 infection will be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ appreciate your time today .
Thank you so much .
Jack Horgan Jon… : Thank you so much , Kim .
Kim Brown : And thank you for watching the Real News Network .

The Irish government nationalized its hospitals, imposed a rent freeze, and authorized state-funded childcare, promising free treatment for patients with COVID-19.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Simon Harris: This is a virus that knows no borders and no boundaries, and there are no easy options. If there were, we’d take them. But we can show the world what can be achieved through intensive sustained public health action. At a time when we need national unity of purpose, we must, of course, have equality of treatment. Patients with this virus will be treated for free and they’ll be treated as part of a single national hospital service. As I teach the guidelines, today I received government approval that, for the duration of this crisis, the state will take control of all private hospital facilities and manage all of the resources for the common benefit of all of our people. There can be no room for public versus private when it comes to pandemic.
Kim Brown: Welcome to the real news, I’m Kim Brown. That was the Irish Minister of Health, Simon Harris, addressing the island nation on the 24th of March, and you heard him right. All patients who are dealing with the COVID-19 infection will be treated for free. And, in addition, all private hospitals have been made public, nationalized, and will remain so during the duration of the pandemic. And as we sit here in the US, dealing with our own COVID-19 pandemic crisis, hearing news like that coming out of Ireland is absolutely stunning. And we are here to learn more about what led to this discussion and the ramifications therein.
Today on the line we’re joined with Jack Horgan Jones. Now, Jack is a reporter with the Irish Times, which is a national newspaper based in Dublin, where he writes about public affairs and policy issues. He is joining us today from Dublin. Jack, thank you so much for being here.
Jack Horgan Jon…: My pleasure, Kim. Great to be here.
Kim Brown: Given the state of the American healthcare system, and the fact that we’re facing this awful deadly pandemic, hearing Ireland, and their leaders, step up in this way is quite remarkable. We want you to bring us up to speed on this. First of all, was this a plan that had already been discussed, and the outbreak of the pandemic helped to hasten this along? Or was this exclusively in response to the COVID-19 outbreak?
Jack Horgan Jon…: The latter. It was very much an emergency measure deployed in response to the Coronavirus pandemic. The Irish healthcare system has always been stratified and separated into public and private. In fact, we’re quite unusual in a European context. People think of European healthcare and they think of things like the UK’s National Health Service. We don’t really have an equivalent here. We have an organizing body called, The Health Service Executive, but there is a very large private hospital sector here. And indeed the private insurance sector will be bigger in Ireland and more important to healthcare service users then will be the case in other European democracies of other states in the European Union.
It is a remarkable development. And what makes it even more remarkable is that the party that’s doing it is, in fact, probably the party that will be least likely to do it in peacetime circumstances. The current government, the caretaker government, is led by Fine Gael, who are a center right party in the Christian Democrat mold, and certainly would be a socially liberal very much in that center right orthodoxy. So a step, like this, shows just how profound a shock to the system Ireland is going through, and how dramatic the policy response has been, totally unprecedented. Worth pointing out, as well, again, as you did in your intro, that this isn’t a forever thing. This is very much only during the time of the pandemic, and is being done with the acquiescence of the private healthcare system. But, again, it’s worth pointing out that they are going to be paid for this. They’re doing it on a not-for-profit basis, but they are going to be recouping their costs from the state.
Now, I went and I asked how much they were going to get. We don’t actually have a figure for that yet, but I bet you anything it’s not going to be a small one.
Kim Brown: Well, let’s talk about how the Irish healthcare system is responding to the COVID-19 pandemic. I mean, obviously here in the United States, we are in dire straits, where our healthcare professionals, doctors, nurses, are saying that they lack the proper protective gear in order to treat patients. We are also dealing with a tremendous deficit of COVID-19 tests, even determine the rate of the infection here in the United States. And, unfortunately, this week the US has overtaken China and Italy for the number of COVID-19 infections. In your opinion, how is this being handled by the healthcare professionals in Ireland and the politicians, as well?
Jack Horgan Jon…: It’s a little early to judge just how effective the policy response has been. I think we’ll only really know that in a couple of months time, when we see just how many people are hospitalized and, indeed, tragically how many people will have lost their lives to this. I think, certainly, if you look at the countries that seem to have taken this well, the South Koreas and the Japans of this world, our response, the policy response has been more inline with those countries. It’s been pretty well organized from the start based around widespread testing. We had our first case on the 29th of February, so just almost a month ago. And then we had our first death on the 10th. Since then, we have something in the region of 1800 positive cases, but only 19 deaths.
You can see from that, that probably our testing system is discovering quite a lot of those positive cases. We’re finding quite a few of those. In terms of how the healthcare system is going to respond to that. While we’ve built from scratch almost quite a decent testing system, the healthcare system in Ireland has suffered from decades of under investment. We do have a problem in terms of waiting lists, particularly in the public side of the system. People take a long time to get elective procedures and, indeed, elective procedures that can be quite important. And we have quite a low rate of intensive care beds per capita of population. In fact, one of the lowest in Europe. So while we’re at a early stage in the pandemic, and while there hasn’t been that many hospitalizations, about 30% of the people, so far, have been hospitalized, and I think only 30 or 40 cases in intensive care. The sense is that we can’t deal with a big surge. We can’t deal with a massive number of people needing ICU beds, so we’ve been frantically trying to add to our intensive care capacity.
But only time will tell if those efforts are successful, because, obviously, we have a system that has suffered from under investment over a very long period of time.
Kim Brown: On Friday, March 20, today is the 27th, it was revealed that the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, Boris Johnson, has tested positive for the Coronavirus. And looking from a distance, at how the UK, and their national healthcare system has handled the outbreak, or poorly handled the outbreak, given your proximity to the United Kingdom, looking at your neighbors, are you glad that you live in Ireland and not in the UK, at this moment?
Jack Horgan Jon…: I’m certainly glad that our policy response has been pretty consistent so far. As I said, we’ve seemed to have chosen our path early, and more or less stuck to that. There has been some changes around the testing criteria, who gets tested and who doesn’t. But, more or less, our policy has been consistent, whereas we look across the water, across the Irish Sea, and we see the administration of Boris Johnson flip flopping, going from this vague idea of hurt immunity, and then going almost 180 turn and trying to move into a containment strategy after that Imperial College paper that, I think, was widely circulated.
Yeah, we do appreciate that. But then on the flip side, while I think college response has been bizarre in the UK and consistent here, I think that the UK NHS with all its capacities is probably better prepared to take on a task like this, from on acute hospital point of view, then our hospital system. It’s like you’re happy with the policy approach, but do we have the system rightly to receive that surge in patients that is going to be coming into the hospital system in the weeks and, indeed, months ahead?
Kim Brown: Jack, I want to circle back to something that you said earlier in our discussion. The private system, the hospitals that are now being made public, at least through the duration of the pandemic, is it, at all, possible that the people of Ireland will say, “No, we don’t want to go back to a two-tiered system of public and private. We like this nationalized system, and this is something we’d like to keep.” Do you see any sentiments, or have you… Is there that undercurrent in the conversation as the pandemic is going on?
Jack Horgan Jon…: I think certainly there is widespread dissatisfaction with the model of healthcare provision that we have chosen in this country. For whatever reason it emerged, and there are a lot of complex and historical reasons why we got the kind of weird mishmash of American and European systems that we have. People then don’t have much confidence, certainly in the bureaucracy of the system, and the adequacy of the service provisions. So there is this large rump of dissatisfaction right there with the health service in Ireland. Now that they have nationalized the private hospitals albeit on a temporary basis, I think it’s going to be one of those things that it’s going to be hard to put that entirely back in the bottle after this crisis abates, when there is such widespread dissatisfaction.
I’m going to give you another example. The housing market here. We’ve been going through a long and very acute housing crisis and rental crisis. And during that time, the government has said that it’s unable to introduce a rent freeze across the nation, because of these very strong constitutional protections about the right to private property that exists in Ireland. Now, as soon as COVID hit, they introduced that rent freeze overnight, so that made a mockery of their reasoning for not introducing one prior to this. And they said, “There’s a clause in the constitution, which cites the common good, and this is clearly the common good.” I think it’s going to be very difficult on issues like rent freeze, on issues like the maintenance of a clearly inadequate public healthcare system, to go back and say, “Well, we did that for the time, when we were in crisis, but now we’re going back to that system that you’re all dissatisfied with.”
There’s another example, as well. They effectively nationalized the childcare system, the early years childcare system, crashes or kindergartens that you call them in America. They made every employee of kindergarten a state employee effectively overnight in a effort to keep that system open when the crashes reopen. As a result of that, people aren’t having to pay these enormous fees to classes, upwards of 1000 Euros, 2000 Euros a month, that many families were having to find. People aren’t going to accept, at the end of this crisis, that this is just re-instituted. I think the profound and lasting effects on the political economy of societies, not only in Ireland, but in the United States and elsewhere around the world of the COVID-19, that pandemic, is going to be far-reaching and long lasting, I think.
Kim Brown: And lastly, Jack, I know you’re in Dublin. I wanted to get an idea of what Dublin is like right now. What are the streets like? What is the sentiment, the feelings of people, as we’re dealing with something completely unprecedented across the globe? Tell us about your observations from Dublin.
Jack Horgan Jon…: I think in common with a lot of cities round the world, there’s a strange atmosphere. I mean, I went for a run this morning downtown, which usually you wouldn’t be able to do, because there’s just too many people around. But I went down just to take advantage of the empty streets, and while there are fewer people around, there is this edgy funny feeling. We went into a form of lockdown quite early, on the 12th of this month. The 12th of March, we closed all universities, crashes closed all schools. And since then, they’ve been gradually ramping those measures. We have been retrenching into the home, and I think that people tend not to go out. We’ve been told to self-isolate if there’s been any kind of symptoms. There is a good community spirit, I think, and I think we’ll find that in common with a lot of other countries that are encountering this. There’s no sense of civil unrest or anything like that.
The police force, while that is more visible than it has been. There’s a tradition in Ireland, the policing by concent. Our police force has always been unarmed. There is a slightly more visible military presence on the streets, but the most visible element of that is a naval ship in the Dublin Dock, which is being used as a testing center. So there’s no sense of the military coming in to aide the civil para in a meaningful way, and no sense of mass societal breakdown or anything like that. It will be interesting to see if that esprit de corps that has emerged is long lasting. There are indications that people are buying into the message that we’re all in this together. There was a lovely moment yesterday evening where around the country at 8:00 PM, everyone stood at their doors and applauded the healthcare workers, the front line healthcare workers of the nation, because they are facing a lot of the same risks, and a lot of the same press that you guys in America.
We are facing that personal protective equipment shortfall, as well. We are finding it difficult to source tests on the international market. There are a lot of commonalities of the problems everyone’s facing, but, as we’ve seen, there are differences. And, perhaps, in time we’ll see profound and significant differences in how states are approaching their response to this.
Kim Brown: We’ve been speaking with Jack Horgan Jones. He is a reporter. He covers public affairs and policy for the Irish Times. We’ve been talking about the nationalization of Irish private hospitals and the announcement from their health minister that patients dealing with the COVID-19 infection will be treated for free. Jack, we appreciate your time today. Thank you so much.
Jack Horgan Jon…: Thank you so much, Kim.
Kim Brown: And thank you for watching the Real News Network.
Production: Genevieve Montinar, Bababtunde Ogunfolaju, Andrew Corkery
Studio: Bababtunde Ogunfolaju
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therealnews--2020-04-01--Turkey Indicts 20 Saudis For Jamal Khashoggi’s Murder Amidst COVID-19 Crisis

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
Mark Steiner : Welcome to Real News , I ’ m Mark Steiner .
Great to have you all with us .
Turkey announced that it ’ s ready to press charges against 20 Saudi Nationals , including a former Deputy Head of Intelligence , with their involvement in the murder of Jamal Khashoggi a year and a half ago .
Turkish President Erdogan made no secret of his opposition to Saudi politics .
In addition to opposing their war in Yemen , its involvement @ @ @ @ @ @ @ accused Saudi Arabia of not telling the truth about how widespread COVID-19 is in Saudi Arabia .
He made the accusation after tests confirmed that Turkish citizens returning from Hajj , the City of Mecca in Saudi Arabia obviously , were infected with COVID-19 despite claims by Saudi officials that the virus is under control .
So within all that , we have to take into account also the crisis of refugees and the war raging between Turkey and Syria and the millions of refugees , as I said earlier , that are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , some of them literally stuck in the middle on the borders between Turkey and Greece .
So Europe has now closed its borders to all refugees fleeing no matter where they ’ re from .
Especially the overcrowded camps in Turkey .
And despair is looming all around COVID and their status being stuck .
So let ’ s hear from two refugees from Aleppo currently in refugee camps in Syria , Ali Hallock Mahasan .
Speaker 2 : As you have seen the situation in the camps , we are afraid @ @ @ @ @ @ @ able to protect us from the virus .
We are not able to sanitize the tents .
Speaker 3 : It is a disease that came for the whole world and I am not afraid .
I actually want to be infected with Corona and die because one can then rest from all of this life .
Mark Steiner : All these stories are deeply intertwined and once again we turn to Doctor Baris Karaagac to parse them out with his analysis and welcome Boris .
Good to have you back with us @ @ @ @ @ @ @ see you again Mark .
Mark Steiner : Always good to see you .
Baris Karaagac is a lecturer in international development studies at Trent university , Ontario , Canada .
He ’ s also the editor of a book Accumulations , Crisis and Struggles : Capital and Labor in Contemporary Capitalism .
So Baris , this is already confusing , but let me just start with this indictment .
So the indicted 20 Saudis because of the murder of Jamal Khashoggi .
The murder was a year and a half ago .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ here .
I mean , what ’ s the significance that it took a year and a half to make this indictment ?
It comes on the heels of all the COVID crisis going on between Saudi Arabia and Turkey .
Did they have a reason to delay it ?
While everything is focused on Corona viruses .
What is , what ’ s happening at the moment ?
What ’ s the politics and what do you think the reasoning is ?
Dr Baris Karaag… : Again , it ’ s a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the assassination took place about one and a half year ago in October 2018 .
Right after the assassination , which took place at the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul .
When the Khashoggi entered the premises together , papers , official papers from the Saudi officials so that he could marry his Turkish fiance .
But then he was kept there and according to the audio recordings and the many leaks from security and the police officials in Turkey and elsewhere , his body was dismembered .
He basically disappeared .
But we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ by a team that was sent by the Saudi regime to basically , eliminate Khashoggi .
He was being very loud , vocal , critical of the Saudi regime for some time .
When we look at his earlier life , actually , he ’ s been very close to the Saudi family and the regime .
But then in the last 10 years , especially in the aftermath of the so-called Arab Spring , he ’ s become a very vocal critic .
And also the crown Prince who basically became the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ he was feeling that discomfort of Khashoggi actions .
Both in Europe and also in the United States where he sought in a way refuge .
But the issue is that it has taken a one and a half year for this indictment to come .
And this should be analyzed within the context of this tug of war that has been going on between Saudi Arabia and Turkey for almost 10 years .
This is geopolitics at work .
Saudi Arabia and Turkey have found themselves on opposite sides from Libya to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the seven or eight years .
But at the same time Turkey , Turkey ’ s President Erdogen has been treading a very fine line and he ’ s been very careful when it comes to not confronting the Saudi family , the Royal family and the regime directly .
In this case , his a target was mostly an inside man , but not the entire regime .
So he ’ s been against bulk , but because of a particular , the economic relations between the two countries , he ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Mark Steiner : Why do you think it came out ?
Did they take a year and a half because they just got the evidence ?
Or is there more politics involved around many other issues in why it ’ s just being announced now ?
A year and a half after it happened ?
It ’ s off people ’ s radar .
COVID-19 is taking over everybody ’ s , the news everywhere .
I mean , are there connections here ?
Why now ?
Dr Baris Karaag… : It is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ certain answer to this question , but this may be again related to some the challenges that Erdogan one has been facing at home .
You know , that relates to what is happening in Syria ’ s Northern parts , Province of Libya , what ’ s happening in their Libya .
Then the recent economic challenges within the country and now the Corona pandemic .
So again Erdogan is looking for enemies .
Is looking to maybe to distract the public but also get some international support in many of the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in .
Mark Steiner : So do you think that anything going on with COVID-19 has to do with this ?
I mean Turkey said that has gotten this new vaccine or this medicine I should say from Chloroquine from China .
The pandemic is rising in Turkey .
One of the fast growing places in the world .
Twenty five hundred people , as last thing I read , have been infected .
At least 15 to 20 people have died from COVID-19 .
All these people who took part in our @ @ @ @ @ @ @ from Mecca and Saudi Arabia to Turkey have been quarantined because they ’ ve been tested positive .
And the Turkish government ’ s accusing Saudi Arabia of not being honest about how widespread COVID is in Saudi Arabia itself .
So I mean that also plays into this cause COVID is taking over everything .
Does that play a part in all this ?
Dr Baris Karaag… : Yeah .
Well one piece of information that may be relevant is that , and then you mentioned this in your introduction , that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ went to a Haaj in Saudi Arabia , some of them brought this virus with them and they ’ ve been under quarantine .
But what has a characterize this process in Turkey is lack of transparency .
For a long time there was no data , there was no information coming from officials regarding the scale of the epidemic in Turkey .
And the officials argue that it did not exist .
And then the numbers start to come in .
Now the minister of health is being hailed as a very @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to address this issue and then take the necessary measures .
But we still do not know the scale .
And then we also , we do not know how well the existing healthcare system in Turkey will be able to deal with this pandemic .
Recent years under the eight years , the healthcare system has been restructured with the private healthcare becoming much more common .
And , but we do not know how well that system will be able to address this pandemic in Turkey .
Mark Steiner : So @ @ @ @ @ @ @ here .
You have this indictment and some people have argued this indictment is very political at the moment .
Why it came now ?
You have the refugee crisis .
If there is a wild outbreak of COVID-19 in Turkey , you know it ’ s going to affect the refugee camps and it ’ s going to affect the Turkish economy severely .
And Turkey needs European union and it ’ s money to get through this .
So I mean , all these things to me are connected .
These @ @ @ @ @ @ @ interplay with one another and what I might call just some kind of dialectical dance .
I mean , you know , I mean , so how am I making so much of these connections ?
I mean , it seems to me that these things are a real , given what you ’ ve heard the refugees say in our opening and the fact that this plays into it as well .
Dr Baris Karaag… : To be honest , I ’ m not sure .
There may be a relationship , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ separate issues .
But what Turkey needs now is significant help from the outside world .
And there have been many calls beginning with the so late Khashoggi .
For the European countries for the United States to take certain measures against the Saudi , Royal family and the regime with regards to the Khashoggi assassination .
So this may be an attempt on the part of the Arab government received some sympathy and maybe help from particularly Western countries .
But , and also it again is that , as I said @ @ @ @ @ @ @ also a part of this tug of war between Saudi Arabia and Turkey that has been going on for some time , particularly in the last three years .
Mark Steiner : Internally there ’ s some battles being set up as well .
I mean the mayor of Istanbul Ekrem Imamoglu .
Did I say his name right ?
Mark Steiner : Cause I mean 16 million people live in that city and he ’ s pushing Erdogan , saying “ you ’ re not doing enough to deal with the COVID @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we ’ re facing .
So there ’ s also internal political dynamic that involves COVID and evolves the opposition politically trying to get the European Union in , refugees at the border .
I mean Erdogan is in a very difficult spot .
Dr Baris Karaag… : Erdogan is in a very difficult spot .
There have been some measures taken by the Turkish government .
But these measures are not sufficient .
Also implementation is a problem .
Implementation has been a sever , significant problem .
But some of it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ country .
The government has been telling people to stay home on the quarantine , but many people can not survive .
Yes .
Unlike Western societies , the institutions of family plays a very , very important role , particularly with regards to solidarity in times of crisis in the countries like Turkey .
But it is not enough .
Turkey has been going through a very difficult time economically .
People have to , people live from paycheck to paycheck and they can not survive .
And I read the similar @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s a lockdown in India , more than a billion people are being told to stay at home .
But people have been telling the government that if they stayed at home , they ’ ll die from starvation .
Dr Baris Karaag… : Rather than the virus .
And in Turkey , the Turkish society is facing a similar dilemma .
On top of that , the budget is empty .
There are years of plundering , mismanagement , so-and-so , corrupt regime has nothing to spend on it society .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ AKP recently , in a country of more than 80 million , close to 85 million means nothing .
So there are significant challenges that the Erdogan government regime is facing in Turkey .
And not only domestically , but also internationally .
Mark Steiner : So Baris , let ’ s conclude with where we began in terms of Khashoggi and the complexities of what ’ s happening with Khashoggi right now in Turkey .
And why you think it ’ s happening ?
And things that some of the major Western @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Dr Baris Karaag… : Well , again , as I said that this should be seen and studied within the context of this tug of war between Saudi Arabia and Turkey in the region .
On the one hand you see a Saudi Arabia , Egypt , United Arab Emirates etc , and on the other hand you see this , a coalition that has emerged between the Qatar and Turkey in the recent years .
And significant part of it stems from Erdogan ’ s initially support .
And also Qatar @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in the Middle East .
And Muslim Brotherhood right now is , although it has been or it used to be a finance that supported by the Saudi regime for decades and now in Saudi Arabia it ’ s considered a terrorist organization .
And it is seen as a significant threat to the Saudi regime .
And this sprained relations between Saudi Arabia and Turkey significantly .
And later when there was the embargo on Qatar , Turkey decided to support this tiny country , which actually disproportional between size has significant @ @ @ @ @ @ @ connections , but also sending in Turkish troops .
Now Turkey has more than 3000 military personnel in this tiny country in the Middle East .
So I think that tug of war is significant .
It ’ s still continuing .
But Ergodan a very pragmatic and politician in many ways has also refrained from attacking the Saudi Regime upfront .
So now he ’ s talking about basically a few bad apples within the Royal family or within the regime that committed this atrocious act at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the entire Saudi establishment .
So that ’ s important as well .
Mark Steiner : Well Baris Karaagac , thank you once again for joining us and for always kind of being able to unpack with your analysis of what ’ s really going on .
I appreciate your taking time with The Real News .
Dr Baris Karaag… : It ’ s always a pleasure .
Thanks for having me , Mark .
Mark Steiner : Thank you for joining us .
And I ’ m Mark Stein out here for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for joining us .
Let us know what you think and take care .

Turkey prepared the charges while internally grappling with the coronavirus, accusing Saudi Arabia of hiding the spread of COVID-19 after finding new cases in returning Turkish citizens.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Mark Steiner: Welcome to Real News, I’m Mark Steiner. Great to have you all with us. Turkey announced that it’s ready to press charges against 20 Saudi Nationals, including a former Deputy Head of Intelligence, with their involvement in the murder of Jamal Khashoggi a year and a half ago. Turkish President Erdogan made no secret of his opposition to Saudi politics. In addition to opposing their war in Yemen, its involvement in Libyan Civil War, Erdogan also accused Saudi Arabia of not telling the truth about how widespread COVID-19 is in Saudi Arabia. He made the accusation after tests confirmed that Turkish citizens returning from Hajj, the City of Mecca in Saudi Arabia obviously, were infected with COVID-19 despite claims by Saudi officials that the virus is under control.
So within all that, we have to take into account also the crisis of refugees and the war raging between Turkey and Syria and the millions of refugees, as I said earlier, that are stuck in the middle. I mean, some of them literally stuck in the middle on the borders between Turkey and Greece.
So Europe has now closed its borders to all refugees fleeing no matter where they’re from. Especially the overcrowded camps in Turkey. And despair is looming all around COVID and their status being stuck. So let’s hear from two refugees from Aleppo currently in refugee camps in Syria, Ali Hallock Mahasan.
Speaker 2: As you have seen the situation in the camps, we are afraid of Corona. These tents are not able to protect us from the virus. We are not able to sanitize the tents.
Speaker 3: It is a disease that came for the whole world and I am not afraid. I actually want to be infected with Corona and die because one can then rest from all of this life.
Mark Steiner: All these stories are deeply intertwined and once again we turn to Doctor Baris Karaagac to parse them out with his analysis and welcome Boris. Good to have you back with us.
Dr Baris Karaag…: Great to see you again Mark.
Mark Steiner: Always good to see you. Baris Karaagac is a lecturer in international development studies at Trent university, Ontario, Canada. He’s also the editor of a book Accumulations, Crisis and Struggles: Capital and Labor in Contemporary Capitalism. So Baris, this is already confusing, but let me just start with this indictment. So the indicted 20 Saudis because of the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. The murder was a year and a half ago. So talk a bit about the complexities here. I mean, what’s the significance that it took a year and a half to make this indictment? It comes on the heels of all the COVID crisis going on between Saudi Arabia and Turkey. Did they have a reason to delay it? While everything is focused on Corona viruses. What is, what’s happening at the moment? What’s the politics and what do you think the reasoning is?
Dr Baris Karaag…: Again, it’s a very complicated issue as you said that the assassination took place about one and a half year ago in October 2018. Right after the assassination, which took place at the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul. When the Khashoggi entered the premises together, papers, official papers from the Saudi officials so that he could marry his Turkish fiance. But then he was kept there and according to the audio recordings and the many leaks from security and the police officials in Turkey and elsewhere, his body was dismembered. He basically disappeared.
But we are almost certain that this was done by a team that was sent by the Saudi regime to basically, eliminate Khashoggi. He was being very loud, vocal, critical of the Saudi regime for some time. When we look at his earlier life, actually, he’s been very close to the Saudi family and the regime.
But then in the last 10 years, especially in the aftermath of the so-called Arab Spring, he’s become a very vocal critic. And also the crown Prince who basically became the ruler of Saudi Arabia in 2017, he was feeling that discomfort of Khashoggi actions. Both in Europe and also in the United States where he sought in a way refuge. But the issue is that it has taken a one and a half year for this indictment to come. And this should be analyzed within the context of this tug of war that has been going on between Saudi Arabia and Turkey for almost 10 years. This is geopolitics at work. Saudi Arabia and Turkey have found themselves on opposite sides from Libya to Syria to Qatar in the past, the seven or eight years. But at the same time Turkey, Turkey’s President Erdogen has been treading a very fine line and he’s been very careful when it comes to not confronting the Saudi family, the Royal family and the regime directly.
In this case, his a target was mostly an inside man, but not the entire regime. So he’s been against bulk, but because of a particular, the economic relations between the two countries, he’s been very, very careful.
Mark Steiner: Why do you think it came out? Did they take a year and a half because they just got the evidence? Or is there more politics involved around many other issues in why it’s just being announced now? A year and a half after it happened? It’s off people’s radar. COVID-19 is taking over everybody’s, the news everywhere. I mean, are there connections here? Why now?
Dr Baris Karaag…: It is very difficult to, to give a certain answer to this question, but this may be again related to some the challenges that Erdogan one has been facing at home. You know, that relates to what is happening in Syria’s Northern parts, Province of Libya, what’s happening in their Libya. Then the recent economic challenges within the country and now the Corona pandemic. So again Erdogan is looking for enemies. Is looking to maybe to distract the public but also get some international support in many of the adventures that he’s been involved in.
Mark Steiner: So do you think that anything going on with COVID-19 has to do with this? I mean Turkey said that has gotten this new vaccine or this medicine I should say from Chloroquine from China. The pandemic is rising in Turkey. One of the fast growing places in the world. Twenty five hundred people, as last thing I read, have been infected. At least 15 to 20 people have died from COVID-19. All these people who took part in our Haaj, going to Mecca coming back from Mecca and Saudi Arabia to Turkey have been quarantined because they’ve been tested positive.
And the Turkish government’s accusing Saudi Arabia of not being honest about how widespread COVID is in Saudi Arabia itself. So I mean that also plays into this cause COVID is taking over everything. Does that play a part in all this?
Dr Baris Karaag…: Yeah. Well one piece of information that may be relevant is that, and then you mentioned this in your introduction, that the people who the pilgrims, we went to a Haaj in Saudi Arabia, some of them brought this virus with them and they’ve been under quarantine. But what has a characterize this process in Turkey is lack of transparency. For a long time there was no data, there was no information coming from officials regarding the scale of the epidemic in Turkey. And the officials argue that it did not exist. And then the numbers start to come in. Now the minister of health is being hailed as a very competent expert who’s been able to address this issue and then take the necessary measures. But we still do not know the scale. And then we also, we do not know how well the existing healthcare system in Turkey will be able to deal with this pandemic. Recent years under the eight years, the healthcare system has been restructured with the private healthcare becoming much more common. And, but we do not know how well that system will be able to address this pandemic in Turkey.
Mark Steiner: So Turkey is facing a couple of things here. You have this indictment and some people have argued this indictment is very political at the moment. Why it came now? You have the refugee crisis. If there is a wild outbreak of COVID-19 in Turkey, you know it’s going to affect the refugee camps and it’s going to affect the Turkish economy severely. And Turkey needs European union and it’s money to get through this. So I mean, all these things to me are connected. These are not separate issues. They all interplay with one another and what I might call just some kind of dialectical dance. I mean, you know, I mean, so how am I making so much of these connections? I mean, it seems to me that these things are a real, given what you’ve heard the refugees say in our opening and the fact that this plays into it as well.
Dr Baris Karaag…: To be honest, I’m not sure. There may be a relationship, a connection between all of these seemingly separate issues. But what Turkey needs now is significant help from the outside world. And there have been many calls beginning with the so late Khashoggi. For the European countries for the United States to take certain measures against the Saudi, Royal family and the regime with regards to the Khashoggi assassination. So this may be an attempt on the part of the Arab government received some sympathy and maybe help from particularly Western countries. But, and also it again is that, as I said, it’s a distraction but also a part of this tug of war between Saudi Arabia and Turkey that has been going on for some time, particularly in the last three years.
Mark Steiner: Internally there’s some battles being set up as well. I mean the mayor of Istanbul Ekrem Imamoglu. Did I say his name right?
Dr Baris Karaag…: Imamoglu. Yes.
Mark Steiner: Cause I mean 16 million people live in that city and he’s pushing Erdogan, saying “you’re not doing enough to deal with the COVID crisis or the refugee crisis or anything we’re facing. So there’s also internal political dynamic that involves COVID and evolves the opposition politically trying to get the European Union in, refugees at the border. I mean Erdogan is in a very difficult spot.
Dr Baris Karaag…: Erdogan is in a very difficult spot. There have been some measures taken by the Turkish government. But these measures are not sufficient. Also implementation is a problem. Implementation has been a sever, significant problem. But some of it stems from the material conditions within the country. The government has been telling people to stay home on the quarantine, but many people cannot survive. Yes. Unlike Western societies, the institutions of family plays a very, very important role, particularly with regards to solidarity in times of crisis in the countries like Turkey. But it is not enough. Turkey has been going through a very difficult time economically. People have to, people live from paycheck to paycheck and they cannot survive. And I read the similar news coming from India now, there’s a lockdown in India, more than a billion people are being told to stay at home.
But people have been telling the government that if they stayed at home, they’ll die from starvation.
Mark Steiner: Right.
Dr Baris Karaag…: Rather than the virus. And in Turkey, the Turkish society is facing a similar dilemma. On top of that, the budget is empty. There are years of plundering, mismanagement, so-and-so, corrupt regime has nothing to spend on it society. The package that was announced by the AKP recently, in a country of more than 80 million, close to 85 million means nothing. So there are significant challenges that the Erdogan government regime is facing in Turkey. And not only domestically, but also internationally.
Mark Steiner: So Baris, let’s conclude with where we began in terms of Khashoggi and the complexities of what’s happening with Khashoggi right now in Turkey. And why you think it’s happening? And things that some of the major Western press maybe missed in all of this.
Dr Baris Karaag…: Well, again, as I said that this should be seen and studied within the context of this tug of war between Saudi Arabia and Turkey in the region. On the one hand you see a Saudi Arabia, Egypt, United Arab Emirates etc, and on the other hand you see this, a coalition that has emerged between the Qatar and Turkey in the recent years. And significant part of it stems from Erdogan’s initially support. And also Qatar’s initial support for Muslim Brotherhood in the Middle East. And Muslim Brotherhood right now is, although it has been or it used to be a finance that supported by the Saudi regime for decades and now in Saudi Arabia it’s considered a terrorist organization. And it is seen as a significant threat to the Saudi regime. And this sprained relations between Saudi Arabia and Turkey significantly. And later when there was the embargo on Qatar, Turkey decided to support this tiny country, which actually disproportional between size has significant influence over the region through the economic connections, but also sending in Turkish troops.
Now Turkey has more than 3000 military personnel in this tiny country in the Middle East. So I think that tug of war is significant. It’s still continuing. But Ergodan a very pragmatic and politician in many ways has also refrained from attacking the Saudi Regime upfront. So now he’s talking about basically a few bad apples within the Royal family or within the regime that committed this atrocious act at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul in 2018. Rather than taking on the entire Saudi establishment. So that’s important as well.
Mark Steiner: Well Baris Karaagac, thank you once again for joining us and for always kind of being able to unpack with your analysis of what’s really going on. I appreciate your taking time with The Real News.
Dr Baris Karaag…: It’s always a pleasure. Thanks for having me, Mark.
Mark Steiner: Thank you for joining us. And I’m Mark Stein out here for the Real News network. Thank you for joining us. Let us know what you think and take care.
Production: Genevieve Montinar, Taylor Hebden, Andrew Corkery
Studio: Taylor Hebden
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therealnews--2020-04-02--Family Of Imprisoned New Yorkers Call On Governor For Clemency

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Eddie Conway is an Executive Producer of The Real News Network. He is the host of the TRNN show Rattling the Bars. He is Chairman of the Board of Ida B's Restaurant, and the author of two books: Marshall Law: The Life & Times of a Baltimore Black Panther and The Greatest Threat: The Black Panther Party and COINTELPRO. A former member of the Black Panther Party, Eddie Conway is an internationally known political prisoner for over 43 years, a long time prisoners' rights organizer in Maryland, the co-founder of the Friend of a Friend mentoring program, and the President of Tubman House Inc. of Baltimore. He is a national and international speaker and has several degrees.


therealnews--2020-04-02--6.6 Million People Filed For Unemployment Last Week

This interview was recorded before the Department of Labor ’ s April 2 news release showing 6,648,000 initial claims for unemployment insurance .
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
Trump : We ’ re also announcing that the department of housing and urban development is providing immediate relief to renters and homeowners by suspending all foreclosures and evictions until the end of April .
So we ’ re working very closely with Dr. Ben Carson and everybody from HUD .
Marc Steiner : Welcome to Real News .
I ’ m @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with this .
As you can see , Donald Trump made it seem like he was stopping all foreclosures and evictions .
Well , he didn ’ t do that and can ’ t do that unless they are federally insured home loans or affect people in public housing , which has shrunk to almost nothing .
White sheets are flying outside houses across the country as a symbol of resistance , people saying we won ’ t pay the rent .
The problems of working people where half of us live paycheck @ @ @ @ @ @ @ our money on rent is that rent and housing issues are local , and historically when you had a rent strike like the ones I led many years ago as a tenant organizer , you put your money into escrow , fought the landlord , changed the local laws .
Now what working people are facing is a much deeper dilemma .
How do you build that movement ?
What should we tell the federal government that they must do ?
How do you fight that ?
Well , that ’ s what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ now with our guest , Brendan O ’ Connor , who wrote the article , Rent Is Due for the Jewish Currents just a few days ago .
He ’ s also writing a book for Hey Market about immigration capitalism and the far right .
And Brendan , welcome to Real News .
Good to have you with us .
Brendan O ’ Connor : Thank you .
Good to be here .
Marc Steiner : So you heard Trump , what he said .
Let ’ s talk about the mythology @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they ’ re actually doing and what people are facing on the ground here in our country .
Brendan O ’ Connor : Sure .
Yeah .
My response is I ’ ll believe it when I see it .
I think that what ’ s been interesting about a lot of Trump ’ s and some sectors of the Republican party ’ s response to the coronavirus crisis is that they are sending signals that they are sensitive to these kinds of social needs and demands , and even gesturing towards making @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as ever , there ’ s no reason to believe that that is ever actually going to happen .
Trump is historically… By his trade he ’ s a landlord and a “ slumlord ” at that .
And so I don ’ t think that there ’ s any reason to take his word that he ’ s going to to look after the interests of tenants in this moment .
Marc Steiner : And his son-in-law ’ s a “ slumlord ” right here where we were broadcast in Baltimore .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ slumlords ” trying to pull the wool over people ’ s eyes .
I mean , there are only 8 million [ inaudible 00:02:48 ] back mortgages in this country , and 43 million rental households .
The vast majority of whom are not even covered by anything because , as you write about , state by state the laws are different .
Right ?
Brendan O ’ Connor : Exactly .
Yeah .
And even what protections do exist for tenants in places like New York are really very limited and very @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and landlord lobbies have spent years , decades doing everything that they can to roll those protections back .
Marc Steiner : So talk a bit about some of the people you ’ ve talked to across the country , from the Philadelphia Tenants Union to Stomp Out Slumlords .
We talk about them for a bit .
The Ridgewood Tenants Union .
And the differences that these struggles face and why it ’ s so hard it seems to be able to build a national movement for rent strikes .
I think @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of this and why it ’ s so hard to build this , why they ’ re having such a hard time .
Brendan O ’ Connor : Sure .
I mean , I think that the tenant organizing and housing organizing is really difficult work under the most favorable of circumstances , which we are not in right now , or really even before the coronavirus hit .
People ’ s housing and living situations are precarious and there is a lot of fear that doing anything to disrupt their relationships with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ retaliation and eviction .
Building support for a rent strike , building a campaign around housing issues , whether that ’ s targeting an individual landlord , targeting a bigger developer or targeting state legislatures is long , slow , difficult work .
Where we are now , however , as you mentioned , is that all of a sudden there is an unprecedented number of people who this month and next month are simply not going to be able to pay rent .
Not as a matter of political choice or as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as a matter of their material circumstances .
Marc Steiner : There ’ s something really deeply missing in this conversation .
There ’ s missing between most of the Democrats in Congress , and the reality of what Trump said .
As you wrote , 3.3 million people applied for unemployment .
Many more are going to be unemployed before this is over .
Let ’ s take a couple of examples that you raised .
Both in Queens and out in Washington state and in North Carolina , in Durham , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ very different in what they have to face .
I mean , talk about how differently these struggles are and what ’ s being done to bring them together , if anything .
Brendan O ’ Connor : Well , what ’ s being done to bring them together is… I don ’ t know that there is really anything yet .
But as you say… I mean all of them are really different , but also fundamentally the situation is the same is that people are living in unstable housing situations .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ which people have to organize .
As I said , tenants in New York enjoy certain protections that don ’ t exist in other places .
For example , the right to organize at all in New York .
We can meet with our neighbors in public spaces and talk about shared grievances , and that is a protected activity .
Whereas in a place , even as a sensibly progressive as California , you can be evicted for that .
The the obstacles to organizing are very different and require different tactics @ @ @ @ @ @ @ which is one of the things that makes building a movement around a singular national demand , for example canceling rent all over the country , very difficult .
Even though ultimately canceling rent is what everybody needs right now .
Marc Steiner : Two things I was shocked by .
Even in California there are no laws to protect tenants when they organize .
That was pretty shocking that they ’ re that far behind .
People on the east coast where tenants have been fighting for their rights and have made @ @ @ @ @ @ @ pass certain laws that actually help renters when they ’ re fighting collectively .
That doesn ’ t take place in California or Washington state , right ?
Marc Steiner : So when you take those things and you fold those things in together , and this white sheet movement that seems to be taking place across the country that ’ s kind of catching on , and they can ’ t have rent strikes because they don ’ t have the money to put in escrow to fight the landlord with .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ where they think there ’ s movement has to go ?
What are they describing to you as what has to happen ?
Brendan O ’ Connor : Right .
So I think that there are two different broad tendencies that have emerged among people who are involved in housing organizing in this moment .
One is a really rapid… One advocates for a really rapid escalation and acceleration of the struggle , which is to say that because the crisis is already upon us and demands an immediate radical response , so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
The way that one of the organizers in Durham , California put it to me I thought was a very distinct articulation of this , which is that , “ If some of us can ’ t pay , all of us won ’ t pay.
” And this is a really compelling articulation of solidarity , I think .
The difficulty is , and this is what let ’ s say the more cautious minded organizers that I ’ ve spoken to have pointed out and that you alluded to , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , whether it ’ s a rent strike or a labor strike , what you are doing is withholding something that is of value to your landlord or your boss , in this case your rent or your labor .
If you don ’ t have the money to pay rent it ’ s kind of harder to think through how the threat to withhold it translates into leverage .
But that ’ s where the call for solidarity comes in for the people who right now are still unable to afford rent @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the people who are not .
Marc Steiner : We ’ ll see how this rolls out with coronavirus and the pandemic because as you write of what other people who said , that one of the issues here is it ’ s very difficult to organize when you have to organize… Virtually when you organize tenants it ’ s sort of door knocking on doors , sitting in people ’ s living rooms , bringing your brothers and sisters with the same landlord with you sitting down to organize this rent strike @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you can ’ t do that now .
That makes it even more difficult for the tenants to organize for their rights .
I mean that ’ s what many people were telling you , right ?
Brendan O ’ Connor : Yeah , that ’ s right .
And I think that is something that people who are involved in social movements on all different fronts are grappling with right now and trying to think creatively and imaginatively about .
And a lot of people are .
But one of the obstacles @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to get everybody onto the same email thread or into the same chat room or onto a video call meeting regularly , again , how do you translate that into leverage and into pressure ?
Because you can ’ t necessarily march on your landlord or on your boss ’ s office if we ’ re all working from home or occupy a state house .
Because the correct and good thing to do right now is to maintain distance from each other and that is ultimately what solidarity is calling for .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ difficult situation for organizers to be in .
I think folks are putting a good faith effort into , like I said , thinking creatively and trying to imagine ways around this .
But ultimately I think a lot of the work that ’ s right now is also geared towards laying the groundwork and the foundation for what comes next so that these movements can come out swinging essentially when these restrictions are lifted .
Marc Steiner : And let me just say that this is the beginning of this story .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ good story here for the Jewish Currents and really happy to have him come on .
You should check this story out .
There will be links to our conversation here today .
You don ’ t want to miss that story .
But also over the course of the next weeks as the coronavirus envelops this nation and we deal with this pandemic , I and my colleague Kim Brown and Justin Moore will be bringing your stories of tenants across the country who are fighting their landlords and fighting the state @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ re not paying our rent until this is over , until we get back to work where you guarantee our income .
That ’ s a national movement growing that he wrote about in this article .
And we ’ ll be talking to many people in that article and others over the coming days .
Kim Brown will bring another story this week as well from some of those organizers and as I will as well .
So you want to stay tuned for that and keep tabs on what we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ connect you all .
So the towns across the country can organize together to stop these slumlords and landlords from taking away our right to live .
Brendan O ’ Connor , I want to thank you first of all for the article you wrote .
I ’ m looking forward to reading much more that you write for Jewish Currents everywhere else .
And thank you for being part of all this .
Brendan O ’ Connor : Thank you for having me on , Marc .
I appreciate it .
Marc @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
I ’ m Marc Steiner here for the Real News Network .
Send us your stories about your rent struggles in your communities , what you ’ re facing , what you ’ re doing so we can talk about those as well .
So I ’ m Marc Steiner here with the Real News Network .
Take care .

The $2.2 trillion stimulus did nothing to help working people. Even before the new data was released, writer Brendan O’Connor said tenants were facing eviction and organizing rent strikes to help each other survive the economic crisis of COVID-19.
Story Transcript
This interview was recorded before the Department of Labor’s April 2 news release showing 6,648,000 initial claims for unemployment insurance.
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Trump: We’re also announcing that the department of housing and urban development is providing immediate relief to renters and homeowners by suspending all foreclosures and evictions until the end of April. So we’re working very closely with Dr. Ben Carson and everybody from HUD.
Marc Steiner: Welcome to Real News. I’m Marc Steiner. Great to have you with this. As you can see, Donald Trump made it seem like he was stopping all foreclosures and evictions. Well, he didn’t do that and can’t do that unless they are federally insured home loans or affect people in public housing, which has shrunk to almost nothing. White sheets are flying outside houses across the country as a symbol of resistance, people saying we won’t pay the rent. The problems of working people where half of us live paycheck to paycheck and spend too much of our money on rent is that rent and housing issues are local, and historically when you had a rent strike like the ones I led many years ago as a tenant organizer, you put your money into escrow, fought the landlord, changed the local laws.
Now what working people are facing is a much deeper dilemma. How do you build that movement? What should we tell the federal government that they must do? How do you fight that? Well, that’s what we’re going to wrestle with now with our guest, Brendan O’Connor, who wrote the article, Rent Is Due for the Jewish Currents just a few days ago. He’s also writing a book for Hey Market about immigration capitalism and the far right. And Brendan, welcome to Real News. Good to have you with us.
Brendan O’Connor: Thank you. Good to be here.
Marc Steiner: So you heard Trump, what he said. Let’s talk about the mythology that they’re creating about what they’re actually doing and what people are facing on the ground here in our country.
Brendan O’Connor: Sure. Yeah. My response is I’ll believe it when I see it. I think that what’s been interesting about a lot of Trump’s and some sectors of the Republican party’s response to the coronavirus crisis is that they are sending signals that they are sensitive to these kinds of social needs and demands, and even gesturing towards making an effort to address them. But as ever, there’s no reason to believe that that is ever actually going to happen. Trump is historically… By his trade he’s a landlord and a “slumlord” at that. And so I don’t think that there’s any reason to take his word that he’s going to to look after the interests of tenants in this moment.
Marc Steiner: And his son-in-law’s a “slumlord” right here where we were broadcast in Baltimore. It’s a family of “slumlords” trying to pull the wool over people’s eyes. I mean, there are only 8 million [inaudible 00:02:48] back mortgages in this country, and 43 million rental households. The vast majority of whom are not even covered by anything because, as you write about, state by state the laws are different. Right?
Brendan O’Connor: Exactly. Yeah. And even what protections do exist for tenants in places like New York are really very limited and very circumscribed because the real estate developer lobbies and landlord lobbies have spent years, decades doing everything that they can to roll those protections back.
Marc Steiner: So talk a bit about some of the people you’ve talked to across the country, from the Philadelphia Tenants Union to Stomp Out Slumlords. We talk about them for a bit. The Ridgewood Tenants Union. And the differences that these struggles face and why it’s so hard it seems to be able to build a national movement for rent strikes. I think they have to get to the underbelly of this and why it’s so hard to build this, why they’re having such a hard time.
Brendan O’Connor: Sure. I mean, I think that the tenant organizing and housing organizing is really difficult work under the most favorable of circumstances, which we are not in right now, or really even before the coronavirus hit. People’s housing and living situations are precarious and there is a lot of fear that doing anything to disrupt their relationships with their landlords is going to result in retaliation and eviction. Building support for a rent strike, building a campaign around housing issues, whether that’s targeting an individual landlord, targeting a bigger developer or targeting state legislatures is long, slow, difficult work. Where we are now, however, as you mentioned, is that all of a sudden there is an unprecedented number of people who this month and next month are simply not going to be able to pay rent. Not as a matter of political choice or as a matter of struggle, but just as a matter of their material circumstances.
Marc Steiner: There’s something really deeply missing in this conversation. There’s missing between most of the Democrats in Congress, and the reality of what Trump said. As you wrote, 3.3 million people applied for unemployment. Many more are going to be unemployed before this is over. Let’s take a couple of examples that you raised. Both in Queens and out in Washington state and in North Carolina, in Durham, North Carolina, they’re all very different in what they have to face. I mean, talk about how differently these struggles are and what’s being done to bring them together, if anything.
Brendan O’Connor: Well, what’s being done to bring them together is… I don’t know that there is really anything yet. But as you say… I mean all of them are really different, but also fundamentally the situation is the same is that people are living in unstable housing situations. The differences are the political terrain on which people have to organize. As I said, tenants in New York enjoy certain protections that don’t exist in other places. For example, the right to organize at all in New York. We can meet with our neighbors in public spaces and talk about shared grievances, and that is a protected activity. Whereas in a place, even as a sensibly progressive as California, you can be evicted for that.
The the obstacles to organizing are very different and require different tactics and different strategies in different places, which is one of the things that makes building a movement around a singular national demand, for example canceling rent all over the country, very difficult. Even though ultimately canceling rent is what everybody needs right now.
Marc Steiner: Two things I was shocked by. Even in California there are no laws to protect tenants when they organize. That was pretty shocking that they’re that far behind. People on the east coast where tenants have been fighting for their rights and have made New York and other places in Baltimore pass certain laws that actually help renters when they’re fighting collectively. That doesn’t take place in California or Washington state, right?
Brendan O’Connor: Correct.
Marc Steiner: So when you take those things and you fold those things in together, and this white sheet movement that seems to be taking place across the country that’s kind of catching on, and they can’t have rent strikes because they don’t have the money to put in escrow to fight the landlord with. Then what are people telling you about where they think there’s movement has to go? What are they describing to you as what has to happen?
Brendan O’Connor: Right. So I think that there are two different broad tendencies that have emerged among people who are involved in housing organizing in this moment. One is a really rapid… One advocates for a really rapid escalation and acceleration of the struggle, which is to say that because the crisis is already upon us and demands an immediate radical response, so basically everyone should go on rent strike. The way that one of the organizers in Durham, California put it to me I thought was a very distinct articulation of this, which is that, “If some of us can’t pay, all of us won’t pay.” And this is a really compelling articulation of solidarity, I think.
The difficulty is, and this is what let’s say the more cautious minded organizers that I’ve spoken to have pointed out and that you alluded to, is that when you go on strike, whether it’s a rent strike or a labor strike, what you are doing is withholding something that is of value to your landlord or your boss, in this case your rent or your labor. If you don’t have the money to pay rent it’s kind of harder to think through how the threat to withhold it translates into leverage. But that’s where the call for solidarity comes in for the people who right now are still unable to afford rent, to lend their leverage to protect the people who are not.
Marc Steiner: We’ll see how this rolls out with coronavirus and the pandemic because as you write of what other people who said, that one of the issues here is it’s very difficult to organize when you have to organize… Virtually when you organize tenants it’s sort of door knocking on doors, sitting in people’s living rooms, bringing your brothers and sisters with the same landlord with you sitting down to organize this rent strike to take on a landlord. But you can’t do that now. That makes it even more difficult for the tenants to organize for their rights. I mean that’s what many people were telling you, right?
Brendan O’Connor: Yeah, that’s right. And I think that is something that people who are involved in social movements on all different fronts are grappling with right now and trying to think creatively and imaginatively about. And a lot of people are. But one of the obstacles is that even if you are able to get everybody onto the same email thread or into the same chat room or onto a video call meeting regularly, again, how do you translate that into leverage and into pressure? Because you can’t necessarily march on your landlord or on your boss’s office if we’re all working from home or occupy a state house. Because the correct and good thing to do right now is to maintain distance from each other and that is ultimately what solidarity is calling for. This is a very tough, very difficult situation for organizers to be in.
I think folks are putting a good faith effort into, like I said, thinking creatively and trying to imagine ways around this. But ultimately I think a lot of the work that’s right now is also geared towards laying the groundwork and the foundation for what comes next so that these movements can come out swinging essentially when these restrictions are lifted.
Marc Steiner: And let me just say that this is the beginning of this story. Brendan O’Connor wrote an incredibly good story here for the Jewish Currents and really happy to have him come on. You should check this story out. There will be links to our conversation here today. You don’t want to miss that story.
But also over the course of the next weeks as the coronavirus envelops this nation and we deal with this pandemic, I and my colleague Kim Brown and Justin Moore will be bringing your stories of tenants across the country who are fighting their landlords and fighting the state and fighting the city to say we’re not paying our rent until this is over, until we get back to work where you guarantee our income. That’s a national movement growing that he wrote about in this article. And we’ll be talking to many people in that article and others over the coming days. Kim Brown will bring another story this week as well from some of those organizers and as I will as well. So you want to stay tuned for that and keep tabs on what we’re doing. We can help connect you all. So the towns across the country can organize together to stop these slumlords and landlords from taking away our right to live.
Brendan O’Connor, I want to thank you first of all for the article you wrote. I’m looking forward to reading much more that you write for Jewish Currents everywhere else. And thank you for being part of all this.
Brendan O’Connor: Thank you for having me on, Marc. I appreciate it.
Marc Steiner: It’s my pleasure. I’m Marc Steiner here for the Real News Network. Send us your stories about your rent struggles in your communities, what you’re facing, what you’re doing so we can talk about those as well. So I’m Marc Steiner here with the Real News Network. Take care.
Production: Genevieve Montinar, Bababtunde Ogunfolaju, Andrew Corkery
Studio: Bababtunde Ogunfolaju
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