therealnews--2020-07-07--#WhiteCoatsForBlackLives Wants Racial Justice In The Medical Field

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
Kim Brown : Welcome to The Real News .
I ’ m Kim Brown .
In the weeks since the murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis , there have been daily sustained protests across the country advocating for the equality and liberation of vulnerable and marginalized communities , particularly that of Black people .
One such protest came from the medical community .
If you search the hashtag White Coats For Black Lives , what you ’ ll find is a smattering of media , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ outright statements acknowledging and yet decrying racism that exists within the medical field with statements and pledges to do better and help to alleviate this issue .
Joining us today to discuss this is Randi Abramson , M.D .
She is the Chief Medical Officer for an organization in Washington , D.C. called Bread For The City , where their mission is to help low-income district residents empower their communities through various means of aid .
Dr. Abramson joins us today from Washington D.C .
Thank you so much for being here .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ having me .
Kim Brown : Dr. Abramson , if you could briefly describe what White Coats For Black Lives is and why this aspect of the movement was something that you wanted to be involved in .
Randi Abramson : This Bread For the City , the organization where I work , feels passionately about bringing the work that we do and my specific work in a healthcare field as saying that we need to do this through a racial lens .
So we need to look at healthcare and really look @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and make sure that we ’ re focused on providing care in a different way than it ’ s been provided in the past .
And this is an ongoing conversation that we ’ ve had but this just felt like a moment when all the nation came together after the incident with George Floyd where we said , “ This has to stop .
This is where we all need to not do business as usual but really take a stand.
” Kim Brown : So when we talk about protests , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ people , really , probably millions by this point have been taking to the streets and cities all across America .
And thankfully some of the healthcare data has indicated that there has not been an increase in COVID-19 as a result of these protests .
What are your thoughts about protesting during a pandemic because that ’ s something that you ’ ve been doing yourself ?
Randi Abramson : So I think protesting during a pandemic when the need is there to protest and doing it in a different way and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ thing to do .
We could not , not do this .
We could not just go back to business as usual in a busy clinic trying to provide our care but we had to take a moment to step outside of our walls onto that Seventh Street , a fairly busy street going North-South in Washington , D.C , and stop the traffic saying , “ We ’ re taking a moment .
You all , community in this city , needs to stop and take a moment to think about what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do things differently.
” Kim Brown : Let ’ s talk about the role that race has played in the pandemic in the spread of COVID-19 or rather the people that have been most impacted by this virus .
Hospitalizations and deaths have overwhelmingly been Black Americans and Black people , even disproportionate to the amount that this community takes up for population .
And we know that there have been a longstanding gates or challenges in place for Black Americans in either having access to adequate healthcare or getting adequate screenings for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on Black people in such a vicious way , in your opinion ?
Randi Abramson : It feels like it ’ s this kind of merging of all these different things of what you just described , of health indicators and health indices being what they are , from centuries of oppression , where they are living in the crowded conditions , and also being on the frontline workers , who is asked to not shelter in place .
And that was the first thing that we were told to do was stay @ @ @ @ @ @ @ from home but shelter in place .
But actually our says you can ’ t , and we ’ re asking people to step forward who are on the checkout lines of the groceries , who are driving the buses , who are making the city run , I think the country run .
And those are people of color and we ’ ve asked them to step up .
So they are stepping out into the streets and out into the community , not being able to shelter .
Their housing situation @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s more contact with people , both at home and in the workplace .
As well as hundreds of years of oppression that creates a less healthy world , a less healthy person .
Kim Brown : You talk about the hundreds of years of oppression and we know that there are longstanding mistrusts with the Black community towards the medical community , and we can cite a variety of historical events , including the Tuskegee experiments and I ’ m also thinking about Henrietta Lacks out of Baltimore City .
Black people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ or seek medical attention because of these mistrusts , which are certainly grounded in historical fact .
What can medical providers in 2020 do to overcome that huge hurdle of distrust and stigma in order to gain access or even seek out the medical help that they need and the communities need ?
Randi Abramson : So one example would be just the COVID testing that we do right after our protest ’ s done at 12:30 .
Then at one o ’ clock , we open up for COVID testing .
This @ @ @ @ @ @ @ saying , “ We need to get tested .
We need to know our status.
” And we have this very low barrier testing .
So you can self identify that you need to be tested or want to be tested .
You don ’ t have to get a referral from somebody else .
There ’ s no barriers .
There ’ s no question asked about eligibility .
Where do you live ?
Do you have health insurance ?
Did you get a referral from somebody ?
You could self identify @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you that you ’ ve identified because you feel for some reason you need to be tested .
Therefore , you should trust me that I ’ m going to provide that test in a very non-judgmental way and we do the test and give you the call back and the education that you need , Kim Brown : Since this latest round of uprisings and protest movements across the U.S. we ’ ve seen a handful of municipalities , the governing legislative body of a given town decry that racism is a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ take on that ?
And what can be done to address that from a policy perspective , in your opinion , Doctor ?
Randi Abramson : Yeah , so I think it is a public health crisis .
It ’ s everywhere .
It ’ s infectious .
It ’ s what you touch and how you do something .
And I think that ’ s all the way the system has evolved in this very racist way has just been amplified here .
So I think what we need to do is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to really think about who ’ s going into healthcare .
How were the healthcare students being educated , in what way , and in what manner ?
What does respectful people look like in a different way ?
Who has the power in that exam room and in the decision making ?
It can not be this hierarchical top down kind of place .
It needs to be a power sharing support that works , that I have some resources , I have some knowledge , you know yourself the best , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the easiest ?
How do you find what you define as healthy and how do I help you get there ?
Kim Brown : And Doctor , you practice in Washington D.C. , Which is a very interesting place .
For a long time , D.C. has been known as Chocolate City with a majority African American population , but over the past decade or so that has changed significantly and really you have a tale of two cities where there are a lot of newer White residents coming in who have higher @ @ @ @ @ @ @ residents who have been there for generations find themselves on the lower income scale and even experiencing violence through the form of gentrification where they have been displaced from their family homes and neighborhoods where they have been for many , many decades been in Washington and seeing this tale of two cities through the race of lens .
What are your observations about how gentrification is also harming black people from a health perspective and what can we do to better , I guess , even out those metrics some ?
Randi @ @ @ @ @ @ @ when you hae the White population , as you described really well , this well educated , affluent White population moving in and displacing people of color , we have to not let that happen .
We have to say that there has to be a respect for the community and respect for who ’ s there , the sharing of the resources , and not necessarily because I ’ m bringing in my own resources I ’ m going to not respect and I ’ m going to move your resources and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it ’ s interesting because we have been in this building that we ’ re in now since the 90s , and this was a place that has greatly gentrified over the last decade .
Just shocking before your eyes .
And we have said , “ We ’ re not going anywhere and the patients and the clients who need services , who are mostly people of color , are not going anywhere and they are very welcome on the street and we ’ re going to have to learn how to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ different businesses.
” A really great example I thought was we have , if you ’ re found drinking on the street then people were calling the cops and calling this crime or calling this loitering and calling this whatever and trying to lock people up and grab people who were just on the street hanging out with some friends drinking .
But then all of a sudden they put a little beer garden on the corner and suddenly that ’ s legitimate and those people can sit on the corner and drink @ @ @ @ @ @ @ t get thrown out .
And it ’ s like , this kind of thing can not exist together .
We need to understand the way you want to get with your friends and the way I want to get with my friends , we both have a right to do it in a respectful way and so nobody should get thrown out .
Kim Brown : You just reminded me of the “ Don ’ t mute D.C. ” Campaign where newer district residents were complaining about … Kim Brown : … @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on Seventh and Florida Avenue , which is right around the corner from where Bread For The City is .
Kim Brown : So I know a lot of people can relate to what you ’ re talking about .
But lastly , Doctor , I know we got to let you go because you ’ re headed out the door for today ’ s protests .
How can people follow the White Coats for Black Lives protest that have been happening daily , as you mentioned , stopping traffic on Seventh street @ @ @ @ @ @ @ How can we follow this ?
Randi Abramson : So we can go to the Twitter site for our advocacy at Bread For The City , and everyone should just stop in their own community , in their own street , in their own place of business , in their own home , and stop what ’ s happening .
Reach out to neighbors , reach out to your local businesses that are right on your street and say , “ We need to do things differently.
” So I think it ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this on ourselves and not just follow or watch fro a distance .
Kim Brown : We ’ ve been speaking with Dr. Randi Abramson .
She is the Chief Medical Officer for the organization Bread For the City based in Washington , D.C. And we ’ ve been discussing racism in the medical field at large , but this is being brought to everyone ’ s attention through the hashtag White Coats for Black Lives .
Dr. Abramson , thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it .
Randi Abramson : Sure .
Thank you .
Take care .
Kim Brown : And thank you for watching the Real News Network .

The healthcare industry has a long and well-documented history of racist treatment of Black and Indigenous people. Now, doctors join the movement for Black lives.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Kim Brown: Welcome to The Real News. I’m Kim Brown. In the weeks since the murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, there have been daily sustained protests across the country advocating for the equality and liberation of vulnerable and marginalized communities, particularly that of Black people. One such protest came from the medical community. If you search the hashtag White Coats For Black Lives, what you’ll find is a smattering of media, ranging from videos to photos, to outright statements acknowledging and yet decrying racism that exists within the medical field with statements and pledges to do better and help to alleviate this issue. Joining us today to discuss this is Randi Abramson, M.D. She is the Chief Medical Officer for an organization in Washington, D.C. called Bread For The City, where their mission is to help low-income district residents empower their communities through various means of aid. Dr. Abramson joins us today from Washington D.C. Thank you so much for being here.
Randi Abramson: Sure. Thanks for having me.
Kim Brown: Dr. Abramson, if you could briefly describe what White Coats For Black Lives is and why this aspect of the movement was something that you wanted to be involved in.
Randi Abramson: This Bread For the City, the organization where I work, feels passionately about bringing the work that we do and my specific work in a healthcare field as saying that we need to do this through a racial lens. So we need to look at healthcare and really look at all the work that we do and make sure that we’re focused on providing care in a different way than it’s been provided in the past. And this is an ongoing conversation that we’ve had but this just felt like a moment when all the nation came together after the incident with George Floyd where we said, “This has to stop. This is where we all need to not do business as usual but really take a stand.”
Kim Brown: So when we talk about protests, and as we have seen thousands of people, really, probably millions by this point have been taking to the streets and cities all across America. And thankfully some of the healthcare data has indicated that there has not been an increase in COVID-19 as a result of these protests. What are your thoughts about protesting during a pandemic because that’s something that you’ve been doing yourself?
Randi Abramson: So I think protesting during a pandemic when the need is there to protest and doing it in a different way and in a safe way is the right thing to do. We could not, not do this. We could not just go back to business as usual in a busy clinic trying to provide our care but we had to take a moment to step outside of our walls onto that Seventh Street, a fairly busy street going North-South in Washington, D.C, and stop the traffic saying, “We’re taking a moment. You all, community in this city, needs to stop and take a moment to think about what’s happening and how we can do things differently.”
Kim Brown: Let’s talk about the role that race has played in the pandemic in the spread of COVID-19 or rather the people that have been most impacted by this virus. Hospitalizations and deaths have overwhelmingly been Black Americans and Black people, even disproportionate to the amount that this community takes up for population. And we know that there have been a longstanding gates or challenges in place for Black Americans in either having access to adequate healthcare or getting adequate screenings for pre-existing conditions. Why has COVID jumped on Black people in such a vicious way, in your opinion?
Randi Abramson: It feels like it’s this kind of merging of all these different things of what you just described, of health indicators and health indices being what they are, from centuries of oppression, where they are living in the crowded conditions, and also being on the frontline workers, who is asked to not shelter in place. And that was the first thing that we were told to do was stay home. If you can keep working from home but shelter in place. But actually our says you can’t, and we’re asking people to step forward who are on the checkout lines of the groceries, who are driving the buses, who are making the city run, I think the country run. And those are people of color and we’ve asked them to step up. So they are stepping out into the streets and out into the community, not being able to shelter. Their housing situation often is more crowded and there’s more contact with people, both at home and in the workplace. As well as hundreds of years of oppression that creates a less healthy world, a less healthy person.
Kim Brown: You talk about the hundreds of years of oppression and we know that there are longstanding mistrusts with the Black community towards the medical community, and we can cite a variety of historical events, including the Tuskegee experiments and I’m also thinking about Henrietta Lacks out of Baltimore City. Black people are sometimes reluctant to get medical help or seek medical attention because of these mistrusts, which are certainly grounded in historical fact. What can medical providers in 2020 do to overcome that huge hurdle of distrust and stigma in order to gain access or even seek out the medical help that they need and the communities need?
Randi Abramson: So one example would be just the COVID testing that we do right after our protest’s done at 12:30. Then at one o’clock, we open up for COVID testing. This is clearly a call from the community saying, “We need to get tested. We need to know our status.” And we have this very low barrier testing. So you can self identify that you need to be tested or want to be tested. You don’t have to get a referral from somebody else. There’s no barriers. There’s no question asked about eligibility. Where do you live? Do you have health insurance? Did you get a referral from somebody? You could self identify and in a respectful way I trust you that you’ve identified because you feel for some reason you need to be tested. Therefore, you should trust me that I’m going to provide that test in a very non-judgmental way and we do the test and give you the call back and the education that you need,
Kim Brown: Since this latest round of uprisings and protest movements across the U.S. we’ve seen a handful of municipalities, the governing legislative body of a given town decry that racism is a public health crisis. What is your take on that? And what can be done to address that from a policy perspective, in your opinion, Doctor?
Randi Abramson: Yeah, so I think it is a public health crisis. It’s everywhere. It’s infectious. It’s what you touch and how you do something. And I think that’s all the way the system has evolved in this very racist way has just been amplified here. So I think what we need to do is take a step back. We need to really think about who’s going into healthcare. How were the healthcare students being educated, in what way, and in what manner? What does respectful people look like in a different way? Who has the power in that exam room and in the decision making? It cannot be this hierarchical top down kind of place. It needs to be a power sharing support that works, that I have some resources, I have some knowledge, you know yourself the best, and how do we find your health the easiest? How do you find what you define as healthy and how do I help you get there?
Kim Brown: And Doctor, you practice in Washington D.C., Which is a very interesting place. For a long time, D.C. has been known as Chocolate City with a majority African American population, but over the past decade or so that has changed significantly and really you have a tale of two cities where there are a lot of newer White residents coming in who have higher income but yet the longterm African American residents who have been there for generations find themselves on the lower income scale and even experiencing violence through the form of gentrification where they have been displaced from their family homes and neighborhoods where they have been for many, many decades been in Washington and seeing this tale of two cities through the race of lens. What are your observations about how gentrification is also harming black people from a health perspective and what can we do to better, I guess, even out those metrics some?
Randi Abramson: Yeah, I think that when you hae the White population, as you described really well, this well educated, affluent White population moving in and displacing people of color, we have to not let that happen. We have to say that there has to be a respect for the community and respect for who’s there, the sharing of the resources, and not necessarily because I’m bringing in my own resources I’m going to not respect and I’m going to move your resources and you out. And I think that it’s interesting because we have been in this building that we’re in now since the 90s, and this was a place that has greatly gentrified over the last decade. Just shocking before your eyes. And we have said, “We’re not going anywhere and the patients and the clients who need services, who are mostly people of color, are not going anywhere and they are very welcome on the street and we’re going to have to learn how to get along when you bring in your different businesses.”
A really great example I thought was we have, if you’re found drinking on the street then people were calling the cops and calling this crime or calling this loitering and calling this whatever and trying to lock people up and grab people who were just on the street hanging out with some friends drinking. But then all of a sudden they put a little beer garden on the corner and suddenly that’s legitimate and those people can sit on the corner and drink with their friends and they don’t get thrown out. And it’s like, this kind of thing cannot exist together. We need to understand the way you want to get with your friends and the way I want to get with my friends, we both have a right to do it in a respectful way and so nobody should get thrown out.
Kim Brown: You just reminded me of the “Don’t mute D.C.” Campaign where newer district residents were complaining about …
Randi Abramson: The go-go music.
Kim Brown: … the go-go music being played right there on Seventh and Florida Avenue, which is right around the corner from where Bread For The City is.
Randi Abramson: Yes.
Kim Brown: So I know a lot of people can relate to what you’re talking about. But lastly, Doctor, I know we got to let you go because you’re headed out the door for today’s protests. How can people follow the White Coats for Black Lives protest that have been happening daily, as you mentioned, stopping traffic on Seventh street in the nation’s capital? How can we follow this?
Randi Abramson: So we can go to the Twitter site for our advocacy at Bread For The City, and everyone should just stop in their own community, in their own street, in their own place of business, in their own home, and stop what’s happening. Reach out to neighbors, reach out to your local businesses that are right on your street and say, “We need to do things differently.” So I think it’s all of us have to take this on ourselves and not just follow or watch fro a distance.
Kim Brown: We’ve been speaking with Dr. Randi Abramson. She is the Chief Medical Officer for the organization Bread For the City based in Washington, D.C. And we’ve been discussing racism in the medical field at large, but this is being brought to everyone’s attention through the hashtag White Coats for Black Lives. Dr. Abramson, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to speak with us. We really appreciate it.
Randi Abramson: Sure. Thank you. Take care.
Kim Brown: And thank you for watching the Real News Network.
Studio: Will Arenas
Production: Will Arenas
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therealnews--2020-07-07--Stir Crazy! Episode #63: No More Whitewashed History

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therealnews--2020-07-07--The US Should Stop Lying About Its History

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
Speaker 1 : I wanted to get your response to events on July 4th , Saturday night , when in Baltimore , Maryland , protestors toppled a statue of Christopher Columbus and threw it into the harbor .
You ’ re someone who is of Afro-Latino descent .
Christopher Columbus never even set foot in the United States , which didn ’ t exist , but the monument was actually put up by Ronald Reagan in the ’ 80s .
What does that mean to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to Governor Hogan , has condemned this act as an act of lawlessness , and there ’ s been promises to prosecute the people that have been tearing down these racist statues .
Delegate Gabrie… : Well , it ’ s amazing how quickly we can not only respond , but call for the prosecution of people who are rightly tearing down and removing lies , because that ’ s what it is when we erect statues and edifices to people who have brutalized , who have murdered , who have stolen , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , not just to ourselves , but to the world .
And so , I think what we saw on July 4th in Baltimore City , was truth-seekers and truth-tellers , in essence , saying , “ We are no longer going to condone this lie , ” and this is a lie that is not only represented in statues , but it ’ s also represented in school curriculums .
This is why we need to have a conversation about how school curriculums perpetuate white supremacy , and we continue to teach @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , and we continue to glorify and deify people who should not be placed on a pedestal , but who should be understood as murderers , as thieves , as liars .
And I think anytime a society is uncomfortable with the truth , we will hate the people that speak it .
And so , when you see organizers and activists in Baltimore City , not only tearing down statues , but throwing them into the harbor or wherever , the anger that people have about that , some people like Governor @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Oval Office , what we are seeing is an unwillingness to confront truth .
And that ’ s what that is , right ?
I am against perpetuating white colonial , white settler colonial history , and the more we erect statues to Lee , and to Columbus , and to all these Confederate soldiers and known racists , we are not just lying to ourselves as a country , we are lying to the world , and it is time that we stop lying .
It is time that we face that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it is , is that America is not willing to face that uncomfortable truth .
We keep calling for unity .
We keep calling for a United States of America .
You can ’ t have unity without peace .
You can ’ t have peace without justice .
You can not have justice without truth-telling , and you can ’ t have truth-telling without courage .
And America does not have the courage to have that uncomfortable conversation , not just about race , but the role of race in every single @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is what we have to force , in terms of a conversation on the rest of America , because we have to confront this , we can ’ t continue to ignore it .
And so , what you ’ re seeing when people pull down Confederate flags and pull down Confederate statues , and statues of Christopher Columbus , it is truth-seekers and truth-tellers who are basically saying , “ We ’ re done with the lies.
” But we can not just pull down these statues , we have to ensure @ @ @ @ @ @ @ school curriculums , because to date , that is how our children are taught about Christopher Columbus .
That somehow , he was this amazing voyager that discovered all these places , when in actuality , indigenous people were already there , and what he brought was terror , theft , murder , and the loss of land by indigenous people .
And that is not something that we should celebrate .
And so , I ’ m really disappointed in the Governor , who has such a strong choice of words for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ right thing , but don ’ t have that same strong words for law enforcement , who routinely kill black and brown people , not just in Maryland , but across this country .
He was Governor when the Freddie Gray unrest took place .
What has he done since the Freddie Gray unrest happened ?
Anton Black was killed .
When he was killed , Governor Hogan said publicly that his family deserved answers and accountability .
To this day , the family has not gotten any answers , any accountability , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ who are we lying to ?
Right ?
And this is what this entire conversation is about , is dismantling the lies , and building a country that is not only based on truth , but honoring the contributions of the people who have come before us , the people who have contributed so much , sacrificed so much , yet lost so much to the building of this country .
Speaker 1 : We have to hold it there , but thank you so much for joining us , and we ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Gabriel Acevero represents Maryland ’ s 39th District in Montgomery County .
Thank you so much for joining us .
Delegate Gabrie… : Thanks for having me .
Speaker 1 : And thank you for joining us at The Real News Network .

Not only should statues celebrating Columbus be removed, but textbooks should reflect his murderous legacy, argues Maryland Delegate Gabriel Acevero.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Speaker 1: I wanted to get your response to events on July 4th, Saturday night, when in Baltimore, Maryland, protestors toppled a statue of Christopher Columbus and threw it into the harbor. You’re someone who is of Afro-Latino descent. Christopher Columbus never even set foot in the United States, which didn’t exist, but the monument was actually put up by Ronald Reagan in the ’80s. What does that mean to you? Everyone from President Trump, to Governor Hogan, has condemned this act as an act of lawlessness, and there’s been promises to prosecute the people that have been tearing down these racist statues.
Delegate Gabrie…: Well, it’s amazing how quickly we can not only respond, but call for the prosecution of people who are rightly tearing down and removing lies, because that’s what it is when we erect statues and edifices to people who have brutalized, who have murdered, who have stolen, we are lying, as a country, not just to ourselves, but to the world. And so, I think what we saw on July 4th in Baltimore City, was truth-seekers and truth-tellers, in essence, saying, “We are no longer going to condone this lie,” and this is a lie that is not only represented in statues, but it’s also represented in school curriculums. This is why we need to have a conversation about how school curriculums perpetuate white supremacy, and we continue to teach our children an inaccurate account of history, and we continue to glorify and deify people who should not be placed on a pedestal, but who should be understood as murderers, as thieves, as liars.
And I think anytime a society is uncomfortable with the truth, we will hate the people that speak it. And so, when you see organizers and activists in Baltimore City, not only tearing down statues, but throwing them into the harbor or wherever, the anger that people have about that, some people like Governor Hogan and the person that occupies the Oval Office, what we are seeing is an unwillingness to confront truth. And that’s what that is, right? I am against perpetuating white colonial, white settler colonial history, and the more we erect statues to Lee, and to Columbus, and to all these Confederate soldiers and known racists, we are not just lying to ourselves as a country, we are lying to the world, and it is time that we stop lying. It is time that we face that uncomfortable truth.
But the reality of it is, is that America is not willing to face that uncomfortable truth. We keep calling for unity. We keep calling for a United States of America. You can’t have unity without peace. You can’t have peace without justice. You cannot have justice without truth-telling, and you can’t have truth-telling without courage. And America does not have the courage to have that uncomfortable conversation, not just about race, but the role of race in every single segment of our society. And that is what we have to force, in terms of a conversation on the rest of America, because we have to confront this, we can’t continue to ignore it.
And so, what you’re seeing when people pull down Confederate flags and pull down Confederate statues, and statues of Christopher Columbus, it is truth-seekers and truth-tellers who are basically saying, “We’re done with the lies.” But we cannot just pull down these statues, we have to ensure that this lie is not told in school curriculums, because to date, that is how our children are taught about Christopher Columbus. That somehow, he was this amazing voyager that discovered all these places, when in actuality, indigenous people were already there, and what he brought was terror, theft, murder, and the loss of land by indigenous people. And that is not something that we should celebrate.
And so, I’m really disappointed in the Governor, who has such a strong choice of words for the activists and organizers who did the right thing, but don’t have that same strong words for law enforcement, who routinely kill black and brown people, not just in Maryland, but across this country. He was Governor when the Freddie Gray unrest took place. What has he done since the Freddie Gray unrest happened? Anton Black was killed. When he was killed, Governor Hogan said publicly that his family deserved answers and accountability.
To this day, the family has not gotten any answers, any accountability, or any kind of justice. So who are we lying to? Right? And this is what this entire conversation is about, is dismantling the lies, and building a country that is not only based on truth, but honoring the contributions of the people who have come before us, the people who have contributed so much, sacrificed so much, yet lost so much to the building of this country.
Speaker 1: We have to hold it there, but thank you so much for joining us, and we’ll certainly continue this conversation. Delegate Gabriel Acevero represents Maryland’s 39th District in Montgomery County. Thank you so much for joining us.
Delegate Gabrie…: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: And thank you for joining us at The Real News Network.
Studio: Taylor Hebden
Production: Taylor Hebden
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therealnews--2020-07-08--Lawmaker Says Union Fired Him For Pushing Police Reform

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
Speaker 1 : As we speak the names of George Floyd and Brianna Taylor and Rekia Boyd and Eric Garner and so many other names that we know , and we do not know .
We must also recognize the people in our state , in our backyards who are victims and have been victims of police violence .
Jaisal Noor : Welcome to The Real News .
I ’ m Jaisal Noor .
Black Lives Matter , the movement , demanding police stop killing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with its racist origins could be the biggest social movement in the nation ’ s 244-year history .
That ’ s according to the New York Times , these historic protests have highlighted deeply rooted institutional racism in all forms , including in organized labor .
Some unions have come out to support black lives matter , putting them at odds with those that have police in their ranks , which have stymied efforts to hold police accountable for decades .
Well , a state legislator says he was fired from his job @ @ @ @ @ @ @ outspoken advocate of reform in a state where police have long evaded , meaningful accountability .
We ’ re joined by Gabriel Asavero who represents Maryland 39th district and Montgomery County .
In 2018 Asavero became the first openly gay man of Afro Latino descent elected to the Maryland state house .
He is the second vice chair of the legislative black caucus and the lead sponsor of Anton ’ s law , a police transparency and accountability legislation named for Anton Black .
Thank you so much for joining us .
Gabriel @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Jaisal Noor : So the times reported Gino Renee president of local , 1994 of the United food and commercial workers .
He said he fired you because of your antagonistic attitude at a meeting to discuss the issue of police reform .
And he said , your stand complicated the union ’ s obligations to represent its members and some of those members are law enforcement .
So this is all unfolding amid this historic national protest , and a big push in Maryland to pass police reform .
We had an @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Freddie Gray and reforms before that , even before that happened , often fell short in the legislature .
And even after that , critics like yourself have said , not enough has changed .
There ’ s hasn ’ t been any meaningful reform of police in this state .
Talk about what happened and why you feel like you were fired unjustly .
Gabriel Asavero : So to be clear , this association that I was terminated because I was antagonistic during that meeting is simply false .
There is no @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was , was a meeting that was set up by UFCW Local 1994 , and the fraternal order of police lodge 35 here in Montgomery County .
And the purpose of that meeting , which took place on work time and in no way was a discussion about work performance was a meeting strictly on legislation and it was in particular centered around my comments that I made in July , 2019 at a Montgomery County council hearing on a bill that would in essence create a police advisory commission .
And what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ while we should certainly applaud these efforts at the local level , that action needs to be taken at the state level in order for these actions at the local level to be meaningful .
And so not only did I call for the dismantling or repealing of the law enforcement officer ’ s Bill of Rights , but I also highlighted legislation that I introduced since my first term in the Maryland general assembly and that is Anton ’ s law , which in essence is a police transparency and accountability legislation @ @ @ @ @ @ @ year old college athlete that was killed in police custody on the Eastern shore .
And the person responsible for his death not only had a terrible service record in Delaware , but also had multiple use of force reports that were hidden from his application by the chief that hired him , Michael Peyto , who is no longer the chief of police of Greensboro , because he was indicted on misconduct in office charges by the Maryland state prosecutor ’ s office for his attempts to cover up this information about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ important to also point out that this was a meeting where in essence , the FOP , the president of the FOP , Tori Cook and the president of UFCW local 1994 , I tried on many occasions to coerce and to strong army an elected official into letting go of legislation , particularly Anton ’ s law , and to stop publicly calling for the repeal of the law enforcement officer ’ s bill of rights .
I was in no way antagonistic in this meeting , but I was very firm @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to work on Anton ’ s law because I ’ m not just committed to this issue , but I ’ m committed to the family and the community that helped raise Anton .
They deserve justice , they deserve answers and accountability , and they have not gotten that until this day .
And so it is incumbent upon all of us as elected officials to not only ensure that we ’ re dismantling the policies that de-humanize black and brown folks .
We must dismantle the systems that support our brutalization @ @ @ @ @ @ @ pass the LEOBR in the early 1970s and other States followed suit .
And this law in essence , impedes any kind of a transparency , any kind of an information , any kind of an oversight and accountability .
And if we ’ re saying that black lives matter , and if we ’ re saying that we want to build trust between law enforcement and the broader communities that they serve , then we must dismantle the policies and the systems that would allow for that .
Jaisal Noor : It @ @ @ @ @ @ @ moment , on one hand police argue that it ’ s a few bad apples , that they ’ re not all responsible for the actions of a few officers , but at the same time , they don ’ t want there to be open investigations and transparency into their actions on a collective basis .
You talked about Anton ’ s law , something you introduced , what role did the FOP play in watering that down ?
And do you think that this year with this historic protest going on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Maryland , do you think that Maryland Democrats , it ’ s the Democrats that have a super majority in the state , do you think they will back these kinds of meaningful reforms ?
Gabriel Asavero : Well , it ’ s not just the fraternal order of police .
While they are one of the opponents to police transparency and accountability , there are also a number of other actors in this space as well , such as the Maryland chiefs of police and Sheriff ’ s association , such as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ UFCW and other unions that in essence have law enforcement as a small percentage of their membership as is the case with UFCW local 1994 .
This union in essence represents workers that are majority people of color .
This union represents individuals who are impacted in various ways by police brutality .
And so this is a moment for the labor movement .
This is a moment for all labor unions to not only have this discussion internally , but then make the kind of decisions that would show black and brown @ @ @ @ @ @ @ when we clock out , right ?
And that is the whole point of this is that the labor movement has historically fought for economic racial , environmental and gender justice and this has to be true when we talk about police violence .
We know that labor has not showed up in the way that it should when it comes to this issue and I don ’ t want to make a blanket statement because there are certainly labor unions , for instance , Mary Kay Henry who ’ s the international @ @ @ @ @ @ @ police union that is against reform should be expelled .
You see FLCIO councils passing resolutions that in essence call for the kind of reforms that the movement for black lives , black lives matter movement , and a number of activists and organizers like myself have been calling for some years now .
And that resolution in essence said that if police unions are against these kind of reform and accountability measures , that they should be expelled from the FLCIO and that is the kind of actions that we need to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ t be the only action that we ’ re taking .
What we need to ensure is that we are changing the laws .
We are changing the systems and we ’ re also advocating alongside impacted communities on the kind of policies that they want .
Those closest to the pain are closest to the solution .
Black Latin X and indigenous communities have been providing solutions to police violence for decades and it starts with a change in state law .
So this is not a new conversation .
Police violence @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
We know what we need to do in this moment because they have been a number of policy papers .
There ’ ve been a number of recommendations , and there ’ ve been a number of calls that include defunding the police that activists and organizers have been calling for decades .
And so the labor movement needs to reckon with this question , do black workers lives matter beyond the workplace and when we clock out ?
And if it does , then we will be supporting and we will @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s law that will bring about that kind of a transparency and accountability and into and build trust , right ?
Because people will not trust a system that is not transparent , that is not responsive , that does not provide the kind of an oversight and accountability that communities have been calling for .
Jaisal Noor : I wanted to get your response to a recent piece in the Baltimore Brew , talking about FOP contributions to 14 lawmakers picked by house speaker Jones to improve police accountability in Maryland @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 20,000 between them from police unions like the FOP .
Do you think this is a serious obstacle to reform when you have people that are supposed to be reforming the police getting money from police unions ?
Gabriel Asavero : Well , let me just say , I am appreciative of Speaker Adrian Jones for creating this police accountability work group and for pointing me to this work group .
And I ’ m really enthusiastic and we ’ ve already started our work group meetings , but I ’ m really @ @ @ @ @ @ @ addresses police violence so that we don ’ t continue to have these conversations and that seems to be the problem .
In 2050 I was in the tear gas streets of Baltimore city when the announcement was made that Freddie Gray had died from injuries sustained while in police custody .
And we were not only just occupying streets , but we were also in Annapolis pushing for the kind of reforms that our communities have been calling for some time .
And what ended up happening was the Maryland general assembly @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is seen by many in the activist and organizing space as cosmetic legislation .
And so five years later , we are still having this conversation because we did not take the far reaching and comprehensive steps to ensure that we are repealing the law enforcement officer ’ s Bill of Rights .
We ’ re reforming the Maryland Public Information Act .
We ’ re ensuring that corrupt and racist cops are being de-certified .
We ’ re ensuring that we ’ re creating a standard , a use of force standard @ @ @ @ @ @ @ public trust and use accessible deadly force .
We are looking at what prosecutorial agency can handle these cases in terms of investigation and bring in charges .
We ’ re also looking at these police settlements that are oftentimes paid out of jurisdictions operating budgets .
And so we ’ re looking at this issue holistically and my hope is that we would put forward the kind of comprehensive legislation that ensures that black , brown and indigenous pain is not the prerequisite for progress anymore .
And so when I decided @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the fraternal order of police lodge 35 endorsement .
And I also refused any contribution from them .
And one of the reasons was because my values and this organization obviously does not align .
I think the FLP is an anti black organization and they have been opponents to any and all transparency and accountability legislation .
So it was a principle thing for me .
I certainly can not speak for my colleagues , but I do think that people should be reaching out to the elected officials and should be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are gleefully accepting the endorsement and contributions of an organization that has not only called for the criminalization of black youth , whether it ’ s in Baltimore city , with the Squeegee boys or fighting any and all efforts to bring about transparency and accountability in this state .
For folks who tuned into our first police accountability work group meeting , you saw that it was very difficult for me to get a straightforward answer from the sheriff of Charles County on whether there is any current law that establishes use @ @ @ @ @ @ @ reality of it is there is no law , but the fact that I had to continuously ask and it appeared that he was evading the question speaks to the culture , and it speaks to the disposition when we talk about issues like this .
And it is a serious problem , the Maryland police chiefs and Sheriff ’ s association plays a role in this .
Afsney , UFCW as well as other labor unions play a role in this and I ’ m calling the question to labor .
Jaisal @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you , so States around the country are facing huge budget shortfalls because of the coronavirus pandemic and economic shutdowns .
One estimate puts that number around the country at more than half a trillion dollars .
There ’ s hundreds of millions of dollars of cuts coming to Maryland .
Do you see these cuts as a racial justice issue , this austerity connected to the services that are being cut , which are often education and jobs versus what ’ s not being cut , which we know often is money @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Yeah .
Whenever we have this conversation around our budget and making cuts , it is oftentimes posed as a scarcity of resources argument .
Maryland is one of the wealthiest States in the union .
And we also have not updated our state ’ s tax code in decades .
We have a very archaic and quite frankly , a racist tax code , that data from the Maryland center on economic policy has shown shifts the burden in terms of taxes and tax payments to working class people more so people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ should be paying more are not .
And so when we talk about the funds , when we talk about the kind of resources that we need during this time , I would challenge my colleagues and the governor that we look at our state ’ s tax code and we start looking at the corporations and the individuals who are situated and living in our state who are not paying their fair share in taxes .
We lose hundreds of millions of dollars every single year when corporations and wealthy individuals do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I don ’ t subscribe to the scarcity argument .
I don ’ t subscribe to austerity because I know the money is there .
We just can not find the political will in order to go after the people and the corporations that can and should be paying more .
And I also want to point out a couple of things as far as our budgets .
When we say defund the police and it ’ s really important because right now as we ’ re talking about cuts , the cuts @ @ @ @ @ @ @ some places here in Maryland at the state level and in other jurisdictions across this country are cuts to law enforcement .
And so when we say defund the police , what we are setting up in essence is a budgetary conversation or discussion .
And so let ’ s take a look at budgets and what we spend on law enforcement .
The United States , as a country spends around $ 115 billion annually on law enforcement , more than any other country allocates the military spending save for China .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ over $ 2 billion on the Maryland state police and correctional system .
And at the local level here in my county , we spend around 300 million and I know you live in Baltimore city , you all spend around half a billion dollars on law enforcement .
And what do we have to show for that , right ?
What has that done in ensuring that our communities are safer black and brown people are not being routinely targeted brutalized and in most instances killed , right ?
And so we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and the conversation , but we have to make these budgetary demands that these resources that are being invested in a police and carceral state needs to come back to our communities , need to be invested in the social services and into the programs and initiatives that actually work , and we ’ ll have a meaningful impact on public safety and we also have to imagine public safety .
Jaisal Noor : We have to hold it there , but thank you so much for joining us and we ’ ll @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Asavero represents Maryland ’ s 39th district and Montgomery County .
Thank you so much for joining us .
T. Gabriel Asavero : hanks for having me .
Jaisal Noor : And thank you for joining us at the Real News Network .

Organized labor must confront police unions’ opposition to meaningful accountability, says Delegate Gabriel Acevero.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Speaker 1: As we speak the names of George Floyd and Brianna Taylor and Rekia Boyd and Eric Garner and so many other names that we know, and we do not know. We must also recognize the people in our state, in our backyards who are victims and have been victims of police violence.
Jaisal Noor: Welcome to The Real News. I’m Jaisal Noor. Black Lives Matter, the movement, demanding police stop killing black people in the United States break with its racist origins could be the biggest social movement in the nation’s 244-year history. That’s according to the New York Times, these historic protests have highlighted deeply rooted institutional racism in all forms, including in organized labor. Some unions have come out to support black lives matter, putting them at odds with those that have police in their ranks, which have stymied efforts to hold police accountable for decades. Well, a state legislator says he was fired from his job at a union local for being an outspoken advocate of reform in a state where police have long evaded, meaningful accountability. We’re joined by Gabriel Acevero who represents Maryland 39th district and Montgomery County. In 2018 Acevero became the first openly gay man of Afro Latino descent elected to the Maryland state house. He is the second vice chair of the legislative black caucus and the lead sponsor of Anton’s law, a police transparency and accountability legislation named for Anton Black. Thank you so much for joining us.
Gabriel Acevero: Thanks for having me.
Jaisal Noor: So the times reported Gino Renee president of local, 1994 of the United food and commercial workers. He said he fired you because of your antagonistic attitude at a meeting to discuss the issue of police reform. And he said, your stand complicated the union’s obligations to represent its members and some of those members are law enforcement. So this is all unfolding amid this historic national protest, and a big push in Maryland to pass police reform. We had an uprising in 2015 in police killing of Freddie Gray and reforms before that, even before that happened, often fell short in the legislature. And even after that, critics like yourself have said, not enough has changed. There’s hasn’t been any meaningful reform of police in this state. Talk about what happened and why you feel like you were fired unjustly.
Gabriel Acevero: So to be clear, this association that I was terminated because I was antagonistic during that meeting is simply false. There is no basis for that claim. What this was, was a meeting that was set up by UFCW Local 1994, and the fraternal order of police lodge 35 here in Montgomery County. And the purpose of that meeting, which took place on work time and in no way was a discussion about work performance was a meeting strictly on legislation and it was in particular centered around my comments that I made in July, 2019 at a Montgomery County council hearing on a bill that would in essence create a police advisory commission. And what I said at that hearing was that while we should certainly applaud these efforts at the local level, that action needs to be taken at the state level in order for these actions at the local level to be meaningful.
And so not only did I call for the dismantling or repealing of the law enforcement officer’s Bill of Rights, but I also highlighted legislation that I introduced since my first term in the Maryland general assembly and that is Anton’s law, which in essence is a police transparency and accountability legislation named for Anton Black, a 19 year old college athlete that was killed in police custody on the Eastern shore. And the person responsible for his death not only had a terrible service record in Delaware, but also had multiple use of force reports that were hidden from his application by the chief that hired him, Michael Peyto, who is no longer the chief of police of Greensboro, because he was indicted on misconduct in office charges by the Maryland state prosecutor’s office for his attempts to cover up this information about Webster.
I think it’s important to also point out that this was a meeting where in essence, the FOP, the president of the FOP, Tori Cook and the president of UFCW local 1994, I tried on many occasions to coerce and to strong army an elected official into letting go of legislation, particularly Anton’s law, and to stop publicly calling for the repeal of the law enforcement officer’s bill of rights. I was in no way antagonistic in this meeting, but I was very firm in my stance that I will continue to work on Anton’s law because I’m not just committed to this issue, but I’m committed to the family and the community that helped raise Anton.
They deserve justice, they deserve answers and accountability, and they have not gotten that until this day. And so it is incumbent upon all of us as elected officials to not only ensure that we’re dismantling the policies that de-humanize black and brown folks. We must dismantle the systems that support our brutalization. Maryland was the first state to pass the LEOBR in the early 1970s and other States followed suit. And this law in essence, impedes any kind of a transparency, any kind of an information, any kind of an oversight and accountability. And if we’re saying that black lives matter, and if we’re saying that we want to build trust between law enforcement and the broader communities that they serve, then we must dismantle the policies and the systems that would allow for that.
Jaisal Noor: It’s really fascinating that in this moment, on one hand police argue that it’s a few bad apples, that they’re not all responsible for the actions of a few officers, but at the same time, they don’t want there to be open investigations and transparency into their actions on a collective basis. You talked about Anton’s law, something you introduced, what role did the FOP play in watering that down? And do you think that this year with this historic protest going on across the country and right here in Maryland, do you think that Maryland Democrats, it’s the Democrats that have a super majority in the state, do you think they will back these kinds of meaningful reforms?
Gabriel Acevero: Well, it’s not just the fraternal order of police. While they are one of the opponents to police transparency and accountability, there are also a number of other actors in this space as well, such as the Maryland chiefs of police and Sheriff’s association, such as other labor unions, like AFSME and UFCW and other unions that in essence have law enforcement as a small percentage of their membership as is the case with UFCW local 1994. This union in essence represents workers that are majority people of color. This union represents individuals who are impacted in various ways by police brutality.
And so this is a moment for the labor movement. This is a moment for all labor unions to not only have this discussion internally, but then make the kind of decisions that would show black and brown workers that their lives are valued even when we clock out, right? And that is the whole point of this is that the labor movement has historically fought for economic racial, environmental and gender justice and this has to be true when we talk about police violence. We know that labor has not showed up in the way that it should when it comes to this issue and I don’t want to make a blanket statement because there are certainly labor unions, for instance, Mary Kay Henry who’s the international president of SCIU publicly said that any police union that is against reform should be expelled.
You see FLCIO councils passing resolutions that in essence call for the kind of reforms that the movement for black lives, black lives matter movement, and a number of activists and organizers like myself have been calling for some years now. And that resolution in essence said that if police unions are against these kind of reform and accountability measures, that they should be expelled from the FLCIO and that is the kind of actions that we need to start taking, but it shouldn’t be the only action that we’re taking.
What we need to ensure is that we are changing the laws. We are changing the systems and we’re also advocating alongside impacted communities on the kind of policies that they want. Those closest to the pain are closest to the solution. Black Latin X and indigenous communities have been providing solutions to police violence for decades and it starts with a change in state law. So this is not a new conversation. Police violence is not new to American public discourse. We know what we need to do in this moment because they have been a number of policy papers.
There’ve been a number of recommendations, and there’ve been a number of calls that include defunding the police that activists and organizers have been calling for decades. And so the labor movement needs to reckon with this question, do black workers lives matter beyond the workplace and when we clock out? And if it does, then we will be supporting and we will be championing the legislation such as Anton’s law that will bring about that kind of a transparency and accountability and into and build trust, right? Because people will not trust a system that is not transparent, that is not responsive, that does not provide the kind of an oversight and accountability that communities have been calling for.
Jaisal Noor: I wanted to get your response to a recent piece in the Baltimore Brew, talking about FOP contributions to 14 lawmakers picked by house speaker Jones to improve police accountability in Maryland. They’ve accepted over $20,000 between them from police unions like the FOP. Do you think this is a serious obstacle to reform when you have people that are supposed to be reforming the police getting money from police unions?
Gabriel Acevero: Well, let me just say, I am appreciative of Speaker Adrian Jones for creating this police accountability work group and for pointing me to this work group. And I’m really enthusiastic and we’ve already started our work group meetings, but I’m really enthusiastic about putting together comprehensive legislation that addresses police violence so that we don’t continue to have these conversations and that seems to be the problem. In 2050 I was in the tear gas streets of Baltimore city when the announcement was made that Freddie Gray had died from injuries sustained while in police custody. And we were not only just occupying streets, but we were also in Annapolis pushing for the kind of reforms that our communities have been calling for some time. And what ended up happening was the Maryland general assembly ended up passing really what was and is seen by many in the activist and organizing space as cosmetic legislation.
And so five years later, we are still having this conversation because we did not take the far reaching and comprehensive steps to ensure that we are repealing the law enforcement officer’s Bill of Rights. We’re reforming the Maryland Public Information Act. We’re ensuring that corrupt and racist cops are being de-certified. We’re ensuring that we’re creating a standard, a use of force standard with criminal implications for officers that abuse public trust and use accessible deadly force.
We are looking at what prosecutorial agency can handle these cases in terms of investigation and bring in charges. We’re also looking at these police settlements that are oftentimes paid out of jurisdictions operating budgets. And so we’re looking at this issue holistically and my hope is that we would put forward the kind of comprehensive legislation that ensures that black, brown and indigenous pain is not the prerequisite for progress anymore. And so when I decided to run in 2018, I refused the fraternal order of police lodge 35 endorsement. And I also refused any contribution from them. And one of the reasons was because my values and this organization obviously does not align. I think the FLP is an anti black organization and they have been opponents to any and all transparency and accountability legislation.
So it was a principle thing for me. I certainly cannot speak for my colleagues, but I do think that people should be reaching out to the elected officials and should be asking them why it is that they are gleefully accepting the endorsement and contributions of an organization that has not only called for the criminalization of black youth, whether it’s in Baltimore city, with the Squeegee boys or fighting any and all efforts to bring about transparency and accountability in this state.
For folks who tuned into our first police accountability work group meeting, you saw that it was very difficult for me to get a straightforward answer from the sheriff of Charles County on whether there is any current law that establishes use of force standards are statewide and the reality of it is there is no law, but the fact that I had to continuously ask and it appeared that he was evading the question speaks to the culture, and it speaks to the disposition when we talk about issues like this. And it is a serious problem, the Maryland police chiefs and Sheriff’s association plays a role in this. Afsney, UFCW as well as other labor unions play a role in this and I’m calling the question to labor.
Jaisal Noor: And I want to ask you, so States around the country are facing huge budget shortfalls because of the coronavirus pandemic and economic shutdowns. One estimate puts that number around the country at more than half a trillion dollars. There’s hundreds of millions of dollars of cuts coming to Maryland. Do you see these cuts as a racial justice issue, this austerity connected to the services that are being cut, which are often education and jobs versus what’s not being cut, which we know often is money for law enforcement?
Gabriel Acevero: Yeah. Whenever we have this conversation around our budget and making cuts, it is oftentimes posed as a scarcity of resources argument. Maryland is one of the wealthiest States in the union. And we also have not updated our state’s tax code in decades. We have a very archaic and quite frankly, a racist tax code, that data from the Maryland center on economic policy has shown shifts the burden in terms of taxes and tax payments to working class people more so people of color while those that can and should be paying more are not. And so when we talk about the funds, when we talk about the kind of resources that we need during this time, I would challenge my colleagues and the governor that we look at our state’s tax code and we start looking at the corporations and the individuals who are situated and living in our state who are not paying their fair share in taxes.
We lose hundreds of millions of dollars every single year when corporations and wealthy individuals do not pay their fair share. So I don’t subscribe to the scarcity argument. I don’t subscribe to austerity because I know the money is there. We just cannot find the political will in order to go after the people and the corporations that can and should be paying more. And I also want to point out a couple of things as far as our budgets. When we say defund the police and it’s really important because right now as we’re talking about cuts, the cuts that we’re not seeing in some places here in Maryland at the state level and in other jurisdictions across this country are cuts to law enforcement. And so when we say defund the police, what we are setting up in essence is a budgetary conversation or discussion. And so let’s take a look at budgets and what we spend on law enforcement. The United States, as a country spends around $115 billion annually on law enforcement, more than any other country allocates the military spending save for China.
At the state level, we spend over $2 billion on the Maryland state police and correctional system. And at the local level here in my county, we spend around 300 million and I know you live in Baltimore city, you all spend around half a billion dollars on law enforcement. And what do we have to show for that, right? What has that done in ensuring that our communities are safer black and brown people are not being routinely targeted brutalized and in most instances killed, right?
And so we have to not only shift the narrative and the conversation, but we have to make these budgetary demands that these resources that are being invested in a police and carceral state needs to come back to our communities, need to be invested in the social services and into the programs and initiatives that actually work, and we’ll have a meaningful impact on public safety and we also have to imagine public safety.
Jaisal Noor: We have to hold it there, but thank you so much for joining us and we’ll certainly continue this conversation. Delegate Gabriel Acevero represents Maryland’s 39th district and Montgomery County. Thank you so much for joining us.
Gabriel Acevero: hanks for having me.
Jaisal Noor: And thank you for joining us at the Real News Network.
Studio: Taylor Hebden
Production: Taylor Hebden
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therealnews--2020-07-08--Why You Should Give a F*ck | Ep. 5 | Campaigns

Studio Technician (former)
Coming from a background in video production and filmmaking, Tunde Ogunfolaju was a studio tech for TRNN from 2018-2020. He operated, monitored, and adjusted audio, video, lighting, and broadcast equipment for the purposes of handling day-to-day production of in-studio, remote and live streamed interviews involving current political news for TRNN. He is a Baltimore native and great enthusiast of 90’s R&B as well as old school wrestling.


therealnews--2020-07-08--Alex Vitale: Defunding The Police Is The Future

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
Speaker 1 : So what have the police been good for ?
They have not prevented crime .
They have not reduced crime .
The prison populations have nothing to do with the levels of crime because crime rose , crime fell , the prison population massively expanded .
Jaisal Noor : Welcome to the Real News .
I ’ m Jaisal Noor .
Public views on American policing are undergoing a seismic change .
Months of sustained protests from Black Lives Matter activists have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ police brutality and demanded law enforcement ’ s role be fundamentally altered .
Organizers say policing is broken and beyond reform and true change will only come through shifting of resources from law enforcement into social programs that address inequality and the root causes of crime and violence .
Speaker 1 : We want the Baltimore City Police Department to cut the police budget by $ 270 million and take that money and invest it in community-based solutions .
Speaker 3 : The process to abolition is actually a process that ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ know that removing the police and their footprint in our city and redefining public safety is going to be a long process .
I ’ m willing to work with anyone who understands that who actually wants to improve the city .
Jaisal Noor : Well now joining us to discuss this is Alex Vitale .
He ’ s a professor of sociology at Brooklyn College and coordinator of the Policing and Social Justice Project .
He ’ s also the author of End of Policing which is currently available for $ 3 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for joining us .
Jaisal Noor : So this idea of defunding the police has really gained popularity .
It ’ s something that activists have been saying at local council hearings for years and for decades , but these recent protests , the death of George Floyd , Breonna Taylor , and so many other people , and also the police ’ s response to it has created a historic change in the discourse and in the belief that simple reforms like body cameras , trainings will fundamentally change something .
How @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Vitale : Well you ’ re absolutely right that this is not really new .
It ’ s kind of exploded into the national discourse in a way that was pretty unexpected , but it has been percolating under the ground , under the radar for a number of years now .
I ’ ve been spending the last three years crisscrossing the country in 20 , 25 cities a year where there are real movements , not just about policing , but also about defunding jails and youth lockups and redirecting that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ This really is a movement for public safety .
That ’ s what ’ s driving this and the people who are really leading this movement on the ground are people who ’ ve experienced violence and a lack of safety and for whom police have not been the solution .
For some reason , Minneapolis kind of became this galvanizing moment where these movements all simultaneously mobilized into the streets and this created a changed narrative .
I think also what ’ s really important here is the way in which on-the-ground @ @ @ @ @ @ @ body cameras and training and just jailing a few killer cops to really rethinking why we ’ re using police in the way we ’ re using them .
Jaisal Noor : So in cities like Los Angeles and New York where police budgets have soared while crime has sort of dwindled , activists have made some progress at least rhetorically getting concessions from politicians saying , “ Look , we ’ re going to cut hundreds of millions of dollars from police budgets.
” But in cities like Baltimore where we ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s dozens of people getting shot over the weekend , that ’ s where activists are facing the biggest pushback and the argument is that , “ Look , this all might be great , but fundamentally right now we need to keep people safe and the only way to do that on a short-term basis is through aggressive policing and catching these shooters and putting them behind bars and locking , throwing away the key.
” How do you respond to that ?
Alex Vitale : Yeah , I just had @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on Twitter about this exact question and have had kind of a debate with Thomas [ Abt 00:04:31 ] who ’ s defended this position .
So look , first of all , the policing is not working very well .
We have this massive policing apparatus and it ’ s not preventing these upticks in shootings .
The connection between policing and this kind of violence is very complicated .
The police involvement in this stuff is mostly reactive and when we have targeted policing interventions that are more preventative and proactive @ @ @ @ @ @ @ things like patrol strength or the overall mission of policing .
The reality is we have a lot of ideas about alternatives to policing that could be used to manage these very serious violence problems .
Even in Baltimore , we got pretty strong evidence about the success of Cure Violence and these kind of credible messenger initiatives .
In New York , we have very strong evidence about the effectiveness of these things .
We need to give that stuff a try and we need to constantly dial back this over-reliance on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ never going to get completely out of this violence problem with a police-centered strategy which relies on throwing people away , putting people into the criminal justice system , ruining their lives .
That has a cost to communities as well and that rarely gets calculated into these discussions about , “ Well policing works or policing , if we throw 1000 police at something , we can get a 10 % reduction in homicides , ” but it comes at this huge social cost .
Jaisal Noor : I was just reading @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Soderberg which is coming out in July about the Gun Trace , so later this month about the Gun Trace Task Force , and it ’ s just incredible to see how corrupting this entire system is .
The drug war which is being waged in cities like Baltimore where there ’ s no jobs or access to wealth or money , drugs become a way of putting food on the table and feeding your families .
The fact that you have cops that are also tasked with going after these dealers and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ also getting caught up in this too and they are becoming drug dealers and like it happened in Baltimore , operated with impunity for years .
So it ’ s not necessarily about individual actors .
It ’ s a system that is a corrupting force itself .
Can you talk about that ?
Alex Vitale : Sure .
It ’ s a great book .
I highly recommend it .
These guys have done great research and have really shown how , when we turn problems over to the police to manage @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with violence and corruption .
It ’ s these specialized units like the Gun Trace Task Force and narcotics units , gang suppression units that are the most likely to be involved in corruption and abuse .
These are precisely the kinds of proactive violence reduction initiatives that supporters of police-centered strategies point to as the solution to these violence problems .
Invariably , these units get tied to corruption and abuse .
So this is not some kind of value neutral undertaking .
We see the same thing with violence against women @ @ @ @ @ @ @ well we have to have all this intensive policing to protect women , ” and then when we look more carefully , what we find is that police are actually involved in a lot of assaults against women .
This is a recurring problem .
They ’ re involved in assaults against women in their personal life and in their official capacity not universally , not across the board , but disproportionately .
They use the color of authority of their job to perpetrate a lot of this violence .
So we need @ @ @ @ @ @ @ police to manage these problems , not just the potential benefits .
Jaisal Noor : The Center for Budget and Policy Priorities estimated that , in the next two years including the fiscal year that just ended , states will have a budget shortfall in excess of half a trillion dollars .
We know what programs are often on the chopping block .
Some states are cutting education by a billion dollars .
It ’ s these same violence prevention programs that are often facing budget shortfalls every year .
We talked about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , right now the latest information I have , it faces a $ 225,000 budget shortfall thanks to a veto on the state level .
Do you think especially with these austerity measures coming down the pipe because of the coronavirus lockdowns , do you think now is the time where this conversation really needs to happen across the board ?
Alex Vitale : One of the challenges the movement faces is that policing is always considered central to the kind of hard money budget .
Then community-based public safety initiatives are always @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that they ’ re seen as temporary , tied to a particular politician doing a political favor , a little bit of patronage or something or an experiment , but of course the real public safety budget is all police with these little add-ons so that when budgets are tight , what gets cut is the soft money stuff .
So that just puts us in even a worse position .
So we need to look at what Minneapolis is talking about which is creating a public safety infrastructure in which policing is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is understood more broadly as being produced in all kinds of complex ways so that when there ’ s a cut , it doesn ’ t just go to those soft money programs .
It gets spread out more broadly among a whole set of strategies including policing .
It ’ s been outrageous while we ’ ve seen cuts in some cities to police budgets , in other cities , the only part of the budget that ’ s either been neutral or actually increased has been the police budget .
Jaisal @ @ @ @ @ @ @ talk about police unions .
The labor movement which has many , many big unions have come out in support of Black Lives Matter and workers , especially frontline workers , many of whom are people of color during COVID-19 , they ’ re facing this internal battle now over the role of police unions in organized labor .
Later today , we ’ re speaking with a Maryland state delegate , Gabriel Acevero , who was fired from his union job because he was pushing police reform on a state level in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ strongest protections for officers through the Law Enforcement Officers ’ Bill of Rights .
Police unions are major donors as in most every state , major donors to political campaigns including many of the elected officials on a board that is overseeing police reform as we speak right now .
Can you discuss that ?
Alex Vitale : There ’ s a group of us who ’ ve been looking closely at this role of police unions for a long time .
We actually had a conference at the CUNY Graduate Center , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ years ago .
My friend David [ Unger 00:12:20 ] has just published a piece about police unions from a labor perspective .
One of the things that we have to sort out is really should police unions be part of the labor movement .
My feeling is they should not be , but that doesn ’ t mean we should just break their unions because I think once we head down that path , that ’ s going to backfire against the labor movement more broadly .
What I think we need @ @ @ @ @ @ @ their political influence .
The way to do that is to make their contributions to elected officials politically toxic , that we have to out those endorsements and contributions and call out those politicians who claim to be our friends but are taking money from unions that not only suck up resources , that not only insulate officers from accountability , but also perpetuate a logic and ideology that says that the solution to community problems is more policing , more mass incarceration , and that other kinds of community-based strategies can ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ work .
So anyone who takes that police money , those union endorsements really can ’ t be our political friend .
Jaisal Noor : All right , Alex Vitale .
Your book , End of Policing , is available for $ 3 from Verso .
We ’ ll continue to follow your work and appreciate having you on .
Jaisal Noor : Thank you for joining us at the Real News Network .

Police and police unions have proven incapable of ensuring public safety, argues Alex Vitale, author of The End of Policing.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Speaker 1: So what have the police been good for? They have not prevented crime. They have not reduced crime. The prison populations have nothing to do with the levels of crime because crime rose, crime fell, the prison population massively expanded.
Jaisal Noor: Welcome to the Real News. I’m Jaisal Noor. Public views on American policing are undergoing a seismic change. Months of sustained protests from Black Lives Matter activists have centered calls for justice for victims of police brutality and demanded law enforcement’s role be fundamentally altered. Organizers say policing is broken and beyond reform and true change will only come through shifting of resources from law enforcement into social programs that address inequality and the root causes of crime and violence.
Speaker 1: We want the Baltimore City Police Department to cut the police budget by $270 million and take that money and invest it in community-based solutions.
Speaker 3: The process to abolition is actually a process that’s not going to happen overnight. I know that removing the police and their footprint in our city and redefining public safety is going to be a long process. I’m willing to work with anyone who understands that who actually wants to improve the city.
Jaisal Noor: Well now joining us to discuss this is Alex Vitale. He’s a professor of sociology at Brooklyn College and coordinator of the Policing and Social Justice Project. He’s also the author of End of Policing which is currently available for $3 via Verso Books. Thanks so much for joining us.
Alex Vitale: You bet, Jaisal.
Jaisal Noor: So this idea of defunding the police has really gained popularity. It’s something that activists have been saying at local council hearings for years and for decades, but these recent protests, the death of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, and so many other people, and also the police’s response to it has created a historic change in the discourse and in the belief that simple reforms like body cameras, trainings will fundamentally change something. How do you account for this?
Alex Vitale: Well you’re absolutely right that this is not really new. It’s kind of exploded into the national discourse in a way that was pretty unexpected, but it has been percolating under the ground, under the radar for a number of years now. I’ve been spending the last three years crisscrossing the country in 20, 25 cities a year where there are real movements, not just about policing, but also about defunding jails and youth lockups and redirecting that money into community-identified public safety initiatives. This really is a movement for public safety. That’s what’s driving this and the people who are really leading this movement on the ground are people who’ve experienced violence and a lack of safety and for whom police have not been the solution. For some reason, Minneapolis kind of became this galvanizing moment where these movements all simultaneously mobilized into the streets and this created a changed narrative. I think also what’s really important here is the way in which on-the-ground organizing has shifted away from demands for body cameras and training and just jailing a few killer cops to really rethinking why we’re using police in the way we’re using them.
Jaisal Noor: So in cities like Los Angeles and New York where police budgets have soared while crime has sort of dwindled, activists have made some progress at least rhetorically getting concessions from politicians saying, “Look, we’re going to cut hundreds of millions of dollars from police budgets.” But in cities like Baltimore where we’re based or in Chicago where there’s dozens of people getting shot over the weekend, that’s where activists are facing the biggest pushback and the argument is that, “Look, this all might be great, but fundamentally right now we need to keep people safe and the only way to do that on a short-term basis is through aggressive policing and catching these shooters and putting them behind bars and locking, throwing away the key.” How do you respond to that?
Alex Vitale: Yeah, I just had an exchange this morning with David Simon on Twitter about this exact question and have had kind of a debate with Thomas [Abt 00:04:31] who’s defended this position. So look, first of all, the policing is not working very well. We have this massive policing apparatus and it’s not preventing these upticks in shootings. The connection between policing and this kind of violence is very complicated. The police involvement in this stuff is mostly reactive and when we have targeted policing interventions that are more preventative and proactive, this has nothing to do with things like patrol strength or the overall mission of policing. The reality is we have a lot of ideas about alternatives to policing that could be used to manage these very serious violence problems.
Even in Baltimore, we got pretty strong evidence about the success of Cure Violence and these kind of credible messenger initiatives. In New York, we have very strong evidence about the effectiveness of these things. We need to give that stuff a try and we need to constantly dial back this over-reliance on policing. I mean we’re never going to get completely out of this violence problem with a police-centered strategy which relies on throwing people away, putting people into the criminal justice system, ruining their lives. That has a cost to communities as well and that rarely gets calculated into these discussions about, “Well policing works or policing, if we throw 1000 police at something, we can get a 10% reduction in homicides,” but it comes at this huge social cost.
Jaisal Noor: I was just reading this book by Baynard Woods and Brandon Soderberg which is coming out in July about the Gun Trace, so later this month about the Gun Trace Task Force, and it’s just incredible to see how corrupting this entire system is. The drug war which is being waged in cities like Baltimore where there’s no jobs or access to wealth or money, drugs become a way of putting food on the table and feeding your families. The fact that you have cops that are also tasked with going after these dealers and sellers in many cases, they are also getting caught up in this too and they are becoming drug dealers and like it happened in Baltimore, operated with impunity for years. So it’s not necessarily about individual actors. It’s a system that is a corrupting force itself. Can you talk about that?
Alex Vitale: Sure. It’s a great book. I highly recommend it. These guys have done great research and have really shown how, when we turn problems over to the police to manage, that’s going to come with violence and corruption. It’s these specialized units like the Gun Trace Task Force and narcotics units, gang suppression units that are the most likely to be involved in corruption and abuse. These are precisely the kinds of proactive violence reduction initiatives that supporters of police-centered strategies point to as the solution to these violence problems. Invariably, these units get tied to corruption and abuse. So this is not some kind of value neutral undertaking. We see the same thing with violence against women.
We say, “Oh, well we have to have all this intensive policing to protect women,” and then when we look more carefully, what we find is that police are actually involved in a lot of assaults against women. This is a recurring problem. They’re involved in assaults against women in their personal life and in their official capacity not universally, not across the board, but disproportionately. They use the color of authority of their job to perpetrate a lot of this violence. So we need to understand the costs when we send police to manage these problems, not just the potential benefits.
Jaisal Noor: The Center for Budget and Policy Priorities estimated that, in the next two years including the fiscal year that just ended, states will have a budget shortfall in excess of half a trillion dollars. We know what programs are often on the chopping block. Some states are cutting education by a billion dollars. It’s these same violence prevention programs that are often facing budget shortfalls every year. We talked about Cure Violence in Baltimore. Safe Streets, right now the latest information I have, it faces a $225,000 budget shortfall thanks to a veto on the state level. Do you think especially with these austerity measures coming down the pipe because of the coronavirus lockdowns, do you think now is the time where this conversation really needs to happen across the board?
Alex Vitale: One of the challenges the movement faces is that policing is always considered central to the kind of hard money budget. Then community-based public safety initiatives are always treated as kind of soft money so that they’re seen as temporary, tied to a particular politician doing a political favor, a little bit of patronage or something or an experiment, but of course the real public safety budget is all police with these little add-ons so that when budgets are tight, what gets cut is the soft money stuff. So that just puts us in even a worse position. So we need to look at what Minneapolis is talking about which is creating a public safety infrastructure in which policing is just one node and that public safety is understood more broadly as being produced in all kinds of complex ways so that when there’s a cut, it doesn’t just go to those soft money programs. It gets spread out more broadly among a whole set of strategies including policing. It’s been outrageous while we’ve seen cuts in some cities to police budgets, in other cities, the only part of the budget that’s either been neutral or actually increased has been the police budget.
Jaisal Noor: Finally, I wanted to talk about police unions. The labor movement which has many, many big unions have come out in support of Black Lives Matter and workers, especially frontline workers, many of whom are people of color during COVID-19, they’re facing this internal battle now over the role of police unions in organized labor. Later today, we’re speaking with a Maryland state delegate, Gabriel Acevero, who was fired from his union job because he was pushing police reform on a state level in Maryland. Maryland has one of the strongest protections for officers through the Law Enforcement Officers’ Bill of Rights. Police unions are major donors as in most every state, major donors to political campaigns including many of the elected officials on a board that is overseeing police reform as we speak right now. Can you discuss that?
Alex Vitale: There’s a group of us who’ve been looking closely at this role of police unions for a long time. We actually had a conference at the CUNY Graduate Center, at the CUNY Labor School a couple years ago. My friend David [Unger 00:12:20] has just published a piece about police unions from a labor perspective. One of the things that we have to sort out is really should police unions be part of the labor movement. My feeling is they should not be, but that doesn’t mean we should just break their unions because I think once we head down that path, that’s going to backfire against the labor movement more broadly. What I think we need to do is we need to reduce their political influence.
The way to do that is to make their contributions to elected officials politically toxic, that we have to out those endorsements and contributions and call out those politicians who claim to be our friends but are taking money from unions that not only suck up resources, that not only insulate officers from accountability, but also perpetuate a logic and ideology that says that the solution to community problems is more policing, more mass incarceration, and that other kinds of community-based strategies can’t be trusted or don’t work. So anyone who takes that police money, those union endorsements really can’t be our political friend.
Jaisal Noor: All right, Alex Vitale. Your book, End of Policing, is available for $3 from Verso. We’ll continue to follow your work and appreciate having you on.
Alex Vitale: You bet. My pleasure, Jaisal.
Jaisal Noor: Thank you for joining us at the Real News Network.
Studio: Cameron Granadino
Production: Cameron Granadino
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therealnews--2020-07-09--Stir Crazy! Episode #64: Get On Board Or Get Out The Way