therealnews--2020-09-04--Foreign journalists, contract employees ultimate losers in fight for control over taxpayer-funded gl

Foreign journalists, contract employees ultimate losers in fight for control over taxpayer-funded global news network

Dozens of contract employees and foreign journalists at the taxpayer-funded Voice of America ( VOA ) are losing their jobs and being forced out of the United States after President Trump-appointed Michael Pack , the new CEO of VOA parent agency United States Agency for Global Media ( USAGM ) , asserts control over management and editorial decisions .
The result over the past few weeks has been terminations , refusal of J-1 visa renewals , and a spending freeze .
At the heart of this ongoing battle for management and editorial control are Pack ’ s allegations of systemic @ @ @ @ @ @ @ previous VOA leadership .
Since taking over as CEO , Pack ’ s office has stopped issuing or renewing J-1 visas for foreign journalists on the grounds of conducting a case-by-case review .
The Real News has learned that at least 15 journalists with VOA ’ s Latin America division have contracts and J-1 visas already expired or expiring next week without any official word on their status .
These include six journalists on J-1 visas who have received termination letters ( the rest are full-time or part-time employees ) .
One of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of retaliation—told The Real News that they have received backdated termination letters without even the mandatory two weeks notice under their contract : “ They told me my phone will be blocked on the last day of my contract and [ they ] have already suspended my email , ” they said .
Bricio Segovia , the White House correspondent for VOA ’ s Spanish language service , became the latest victim of apparent retaliation after he asked senior WH official Mauricio Claver-Carone about the plight of journalists on J-1 visas .
After @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s Spanish language website , Bricio ’ s official email and credentials were suspended .
A senior VOA manager—who is a federal employee—sent out an agency-wide email asking all language services not to publish any part of the interview and immediately report if they have already done so .
Segovia , the White House correspondent for the Latin America division , later tweeted that VOA took down his interview and republished it after taking out the questions he asked Claver-Carone about Pack ’ s policies .
With at least 15 journalists out of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s Latin America division is facing a staff shortage .
The digital director of the division recently told staff at a meeting that losing contractors amounts to a “ 40 % loss of web traffic and 50 % less social media engagement as the division will not be able to manage its digital operations because of the staff cuts.
” According to sources in the Latin America division , the senior manager also stated these changes will have an impact on ongoing projects related to freedom of the press in Venezuela .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ journalists , who fear retaliation because of their association with VOA if they go back to their home countries .
This is true for journalists recruited from Russia , China , Pakistan , Turkey , and Venezuela , to name a few , where VOA is commonly seen as a propaganda arm for the CIA .
VOA journalists in these countries have frequently been targeted by security agencies as well as violent actors because of their affiliation with American government agencies .
Last week , two journalists with VOA ’ s Indonesia service @ @ @ @ @ @ @ J-1 visa renewal and are said to be in quarantine after landing in their home country .
Another journalist , a European national , will lose her visa within the next few days , and is being put on a flight once her visa expires , leaving her no time to weigh her options .
VOA sources confirmed at least 15 journalists will need visa renewal in coming weeks and will likely have to leave the United States .
In at least two cases , contract employees were told at least two months @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be renewed because Pack ’ s office has implemented a budget freeze until Dec 31 .
One affected staffer told TRNN he has decided to leave the United States because he can not afford living here now .
“ I wish VOA all the best but I have my doubts about its future because of the new direction it is taking , ” an affected employee said .
He worked with VOA for over 10 years before being let go .
The Real News has interviewed at least seven VOA journalists facing contract @ @ @ @ @ @ @ country because of visa expiration .
These include four VOA Urdu language service contractors , who were initially suspended for their alleged role in a Pro-Biden video the service published on its digital platforms in July , which attracted the ire of USAGM ’ s CEO who called it an attempt to influence American elections .
TRNN has published a detailed report on this controversy and the resulting ongoing investigation .
On Aug. 26 , all four of those contractors received termination letters signed by VOA human resources officer J. R. Hill : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sent you a show cause notice which advised you of my proposed termination of your contract , ” the letter reads .
It concludes the contractors failed to demonstrate “ the publishing of the story was not due to your fault ” and as a result their contracts are terminated with immediate effect .
These terminated employees spoke to TRNN and asked not to be named because they are appealing the decision .
Among them is another J-1 staffer who handled digital publishing for VOA ’ s Urdu language service .
Following her @ @ @ @ @ @ @ United States within a month .
The other staffer who was let go said he has already received death threats on social media after the news of his termination got out .
He ’ s unsure if he has to apply for asylum to be able to stay on .
One of the four terminated Urdu service contractors is contacting members of Congress to draw attention to their summary dismissal .
Meanwhile , the top managers of the Urdu language service received far lesser penalties than the four contract employees terminated for publishing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Urdu service Kokab Farshori returned after a weeklong suspension .
VOA insiders claim the higher ups of VOA South and Central Asia division are trying to save the service chief and his deputy who gave the go-ahead for the controversial Biden video that led to the termination of contractors .
According to these sources , USAGM is leading a separate investigation into the mismanagement at Urdu language service , including “ biased coverage of recent Black Lives Matter protests in Washington , D.C. ” A spokesperson for USAGM sent the following statement to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is firmly committed to carrying out long-needed reform at the agency , will continue to ensure that violations of the agency ’ s professional journalistic principles are dealt with swiftly and fairly in order to safeguard USAGM ’ s reputation and the integrity of its news and information programming , which reach a weekly global audience of over 350 million people.
” This situation brings into sharp relief the problems contract employees face : “ We do most of the work in VOA and this is how we are treated .
We have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ injustice , ” one affected staffer told TRNN .
“ Coming to the U.S. was my dream , ” another staffer said .
“ And now it ’ s shattered for no fault of mine.
” Separately , a journalist of Pakistani origin has been in Washington , D.C. , for three months now , awaiting a contract after VOA processed her J-1 visa and got her flight to the United States .
Unable to start working , she is weighing her legal options .
She told TRNN it is no longer possible @ @ @ @ @ @ @ own pocket , and VOA management has not advised her of what to expect .
In a statement , Representative Eliot L. Engel , chairman of the House Committee on Foreign Affairs , said : “ It ’ s clear that the agency is just trying to run out the clock until these journalists are forced to leave .
Mr .
Pack still has time to act to resolve this situation , but make no mistake , he is accountable for what comes next.
” Pack is set to testify before the Committee @ @ @ @ @ @ @

Dozens of contract employees and foreign journalists at the taxpayer-funded Voice of America (VOA) are losing their jobs and being forced out of the United States after President Trump-appointed Michael Pack, the new CEO of VOA parent agency United States Agency for Global Media (USAGM), asserts control over management and editorial decisions. The result over the past few weeks has been terminations, refusal of J-1 visa renewals, and a spending freeze.
At the heart of this ongoing battle for management and editorial control are Pack’s allegations of systemic security failures and biased news coverage by previous VOA leadership. Since taking over as CEO, Pack’s office has stopped issuing or renewing J-1 visas for foreign journalists on the grounds of conducting a case-by-case review.
The Real News has learned that at least 15 journalists with VOA’s Latin America division have contracts and J-1 visas already expired or expiring next week without any official word on their status. These include six journalists on J-1 visas who have received termination letters (the rest are full-time or part-time employees). One of the affected journalists—who requested anonymity for fear of retaliation—told The Real News that they have received backdated termination letters without even the mandatory two weeks notice under their contract: “They told me my phone will be blocked on the last day of my contract and [they] have already suspended my email,” they said.
Bricio Segovia, the White House correspondent for VOA’s Spanish language service, became the latest victim of apparent retaliation after he asked senior WH official Mauricio Claver-Carone about the plight of journalists on J-1 visas. After the interview went live on VOA’s Spanish language website, Bricio’s official email and credentials were suspended.
A senior VOA manager—who is a federal employee—sent out an agency-wide email asking all language services not to publish any part of the interview and immediately report if they have already done so. Segovia, the White House correspondent for the Latin America division, later tweeted that VOA took down his interview and republished it after taking out the questions he asked Claver-Carone about Pack’s policies.
With at least 15 journalists out of commission because of expired contracts, VOA’s Latin America division is facing a staff shortage. The digital director of the division recently told staff at a meeting that losing contractors amounts to a “40% loss of web traffic and 50% less social media engagement as the division will not be able to manage its digital operations because of the staff cuts.” According to sources in the Latin America division, the senior manager also stated these changes will have an impact on ongoing projects related to freedom of the press in Venezuela.
The situation is especially dire for foreign journalists, who fear retaliation because of their association with VOA if they go back to their home countries. This is true for journalists recruited from Russia, China, Pakistan, Turkey, and Venezuela, to name a few, where VOA is commonly seen as a propaganda arm for the CIA. VOA journalists in these countries have frequently been targeted by security agencies as well as violent actors because of their affiliation with American government agencies.
Last week, two journalists with VOA’s Indonesia service departed the U.S. after they were refused J-1 visa renewal and are said to be in quarantine after landing in their home country. Another journalist, a European national, will lose her visa within the next few days, and is being put on a flight once her visa expires, leaving her no time to weigh her options. VOA sources confirmed at least 15 journalists will need visa renewal in coming weeks and will likely have to leave the United States.
In at least two cases, contract employees were told at least two months in advance that their contracts will not be renewed because Pack’s office has implemented a budget freeze until Dec 31. One affected staffer told TRNN he has decided to leave the United States because he cannot afford living here now. “I wish VOA all the best but I have my doubts about its future because of the new direction it is taking,” an affected employee said. He worked with VOA for over 10 years before being let go.
The Real News has interviewed at least seven VOA journalists facing contract termination or being forced to leave the country because of visa expiration. These include four VOA Urdu language service contractors, who were initially suspended for their alleged role in a Pro-Biden video the service published on its digital platforms in July, which attracted the ire of USAGM’s CEO who called it an attempt to influence American elections. TRNN has published a detailed report on this controversy and the resulting ongoing investigation.
On Aug. 26, all four of those contractors received termination letters signed by VOA human resources officer J. R. Hill: “On Aug. 11, 2020 I sent you a show cause notice which advised you of my proposed termination of your contract,” the letter reads. It concludes the contractors failed to demonstrate “the publishing of the story was not due to your fault” and as a result their contracts are terminated with immediate effect.
These terminated employees spoke to TRNN and asked not to be named because they are appealing the decision. Among them is another J-1 staffer who handled digital publishing for VOA’s Urdu language service. Following her termination, she has to leave the United States within a month. The other staffer who was let go said he has already received death threats on social media after the news of his termination got out. He’s unsure if he has to apply for asylum to be able to stay on. One of the four terminated Urdu service contractors is contacting members of Congress to draw attention to their summary dismissal.
Meanwhile, the top managers of the Urdu language service received far lesser penalties than the four contract employees terminated for publishing the pro-Biden video. The chief of Urdu service Kokab Farshori returned after a weeklong suspension. VOA insiders claim the higher ups of VOA South and Central Asia division are trying to save the service chief and his deputy who gave the go-ahead for the controversial Biden video that led to the termination of contractors. According to these sources, USAGM is leading a separate investigation into the mismanagement at Urdu language service, including “biased coverage of recent Black Lives Matter protests in Washington, D.C.”
A spokesperson for USAGM sent the following statement to TRNN: “CEO Pack, who is firmly committed to carrying out long-needed reform at the agency, will continue to ensure that violations of the agency’s professional journalistic principles are dealt with swiftly and fairly in order to safeguard USAGM’s reputation and the integrity of its news and information programming, which reach a weekly global audience of over 350 million people.”
This situation brings into sharp relief the problems contract employees face: “We do most of the work in VOA and this is how we are treated. We have no rights or recourse available against this injustice,” one affected staffer told TRNN.
“Coming to the U.S. was my dream,” another staffer said. “And now it’s shattered for no fault of mine.”
Separately, a journalist of Pakistani origin has been in Washington, D.C., for three months now, awaiting a contract after VOA processed her J-1 visa and got her flight to the United States. Unable to start working, she is weighing her legal options. She told TRNN it is no longer possible for her to live out of her own pocket, and VOA management has not advised her of what to expect.
In a statement, Representative Eliot L. Engel, chairman of the House Committee on Foreign Affairs, said: “It’s clear that the agency is just trying to run out the clock until these journalists are forced to leave. Mr. Pack still has time to act to resolve this situation, but make no mistake, he is accountable for what comes next.”
Pack is set to testify before the Committee on Foreign Affairs on Sept. 24.
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therealnews--2020-09-04--He exposed police corruption, now cops won’t leave him alone

Taya Graham : Hello .
My name is Taya Graham , and welcome to the Police Accountability Report .
Remember , this show has a single purpose , holding the politically powerful institution of policing accountable , a purpose which appears to be growing more and more difficult by the day .
That ’ s because even as we scrutinize the system which makes bad policing possible , the country ’ s law enforcement industrial complex has proven not just resilient but almost untouchable .
And to illustrate that point , we ’ re going to tell the story of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s a tale that reveals how police can target their immense powers at those who try to hold them accountable , even if the gesture is innocuous .
His name is Otto the Watchdog , and he ’ s a well-known cop watcher .
And I ’ m sure most of our regular viewers remember this : his arrest in Royse City , Texas for holding a sign one motorist found offensive .
The sign pictured here , was at worst , a frank comment on the state of the country ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ encounter with police , which ended with the now famous Otto flop , is notable for something else , how far police and prosecutors are willing to pursue Otto for this victimless crime .
That ’ s because even though Otto moved to Colorado , the county prosecutor has continued to press the case , requiring Otto return to Texas multiple times to court for a simple misdemeanor charge of disorderly conduct .
So what does Otto ’ s ordeal teach us , and what can we learn from it ?
Well let @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Otto holds a sign expressing his disgust with the system that he finds both oppressive and out of control .
What ’ s more American than that ?
Police arrest him for exercising his Constitutional rights , but Otto refuses to stay silent .
And then they use the criminal justice system to retaliate , a pursuit that has nothing to do with stemming violence , solving crimes , or bettering public safety .
In fact , we actually have this recording of Royse County police chief accusing Otto , the man holding @ @ @ @ @ @ @ crime .
Let ’ s listen .
Stephen Janis : He ’ s got case files on him that ain ’ t even hit yet .
I ’ m telling you , he ’ s got stuff from there and in other counties that they ’ re going to try to put together and they ’ re going to try to get his assessment for organized crime .
It ’ s going to happen .
He needs to let it go .
You can ’ t beat the system .
If I was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ shoes , if I was in his shoes , I would stay far away from Royse City and [ inaudible 00:02:27 ] police officers that I could .
Taya Graham : But of course , the question is , why would Royse Police target auto for holding a sign ?
And what does it say about American policing that resources that could be used to improve public safety are instead aimed at a single man who wants to hold them accountable ?
To discuss this , first I ’ m going to talk @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , who has reached out to prosecutors to find out why they continue to prosecute this case .
Stephen , thank you for joining me .
Stephen Janis : Thanks for having me , Taya .
I appreciate it .
Taya Graham : Now , Stephen , you talked to prosecutors in Rockwell County , the jurisdiction that handles the cases in Royse City .
What did they tell you about why they continue to prosecute Otto ’ s case ?
Stephen Janis : Well , we called , and they told us @ @ @ @ @ @ @ put us on hold for 20 minutes and finally came back on the phone and said , “ We can ’ t talk about it , ” which I think is unusual .
I mean , prosecutors when they take a case this far and for this long , should be accountable to the public and give some reason for spending the resources they ’ re expending on this particular case .
So , so far they ’ re not talking , and I don ’ t think that ’ s an acceptable @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : Now , as you were investigating Royse City Police , you came across some interesting data .
Can you discuss this data ?
Stephen Janis : Well , when I was trying to figure out why Royse was spending so much time on this , I looked at their 911 calls , which actually Otto brought this to my attention .
One of their most common 911 call is for suspicious person .
In fact , I went through about a month ’ s worth of calls , which total about 200 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ roughly suspicious people .
So Royse City , a city of 13,000 , obviously has some strange issues going on with policing that don ’ t make any sense , because these calls include alarms and all sorts of stuff .
So they ’ re really nothing seriously criminal here .
The only criminal I can see is people calling and reporting other people as suspicious people .
So I think it points to the problems that Otto was trying to point out about policing , that there ’ s something wrong with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Taya Graham : Stephen , this pattern fits into a concept we think is applicable to this phenomenon that says much about American policing and why auditors like Otto are facing so much pushback .
Can you talk about it ?
Stephen Janis : Yeah , I think this is a prime example of what we talked about in the show called Social Boundary Policing .
In other words , policing , not crime or some sort of catastrophic event , but rather just trying to enforce social boundaries , where one person @ @ @ @ @ @ @ t like another person or a person of another race or another ethnicity and wants police to police those boundaries .
Or just the boundaries of poverty and wealth , because there ’ s really no explanation for this other than the fact that police are immersed in social boundary policing .
And I think that ’ s a lot of what auditors are trying to call attention to , that policing in America is not about preventing crime or public safety , it ’ s about policing social boundaries that are created @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hostility , stoked by politicians .
So I think this is a perfect example of that phenomenon .
Taya Graham : Now we have , in part , an example that shows both how American policing avoids accountability and perhaps why .
First , as we see in the response from the prosecutors , they can spend a lot of public money pursuing Otto , as long as they want .
They can drag the case on for years without any public accountability .
They have the ability to force him back to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ matter how petty the charge .
And then perhaps we have the why , because it ’ s cop watchers like Otto , who through auditing the police , have revealed a deeper truism about law enforcement , which police don ’ t want you to see .
And that ’ s the ugliness of a system that seems more interested in enforcing the aforementioned social boundaries than in fighting crime .
It ’ s part of a trend in American law enforcement that we believe explains much of why people have flooded @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are constantly under fire for bad behavior .
I mean , if crime was a priority , then perhaps we wouldn ’ t have a national clearance rate of 20 % on burglaries or here in our own city , we would not have a homicide clearance rate of 30 % , meaning 70 % of the homicides in Baltimore go unsolved .
It ’ s one of the primary trues that auditors we spoke to have revealed in their work holding police accountable , like Kenneth Dunham being arrested for filming a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a cop literally taking the money from a sex worker in broad daylight .
Or guitars Joe Workman arrested on a sidewalk for playing a guitar .
All these cases expose exactly what I ’ m talking about , one of the real reasons policing is so problematic in this country .
And to talk more about this idea , I ’ m joined by the man at the center of this storm , Otto the Watchdog .
Otto , thank you so much for joining us .
Otto the Watchd… : Hey @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s always a pleasure to be here .
Taya Graham : Otto , you told Stephen about all these suspicious persons cases in Royse .
What ’ s causing them , and why are they happening ?
Otto the Watchd… : Oh my god , let me tell you , it ’ s Karens .
There ’ s Karens everywhere .
And they see something , and they have to say something .
But they see something that upsets them a little bit , and the only thing that they know to do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And if nobody listens , then they call the cops .
Because the police will listen , the police will respond .
And if they encounter something that makes them personally feel just slightly uncomfortable or inconvenienced , they will dial 911 and they will complain about it , and the police will show up .
Taya Graham : Do you think this type of policing is part of why cop watchers like you are encountering so much resistance ?
Is it coming from the Karens , like you said , or is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s a combination of both ?
Otto the Watchd… : It ’ s definitely a combination of both .
The police rely on citizens to report crimes and assist them in the detection and apprehension of criminals .
But what ’ s happened is that there ’ s people who don ’ t know what crimes are , and honestly , nobody knows what crimes are , including the police .
As a matter of fact , if you call the police and ask them if a very specific action is against the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you or won ’ t tell you .
And so , nobody will tell you what the law is until you ’ ve broken it .
And then you get punished severely for not knowing the law .
Because for you and me , ignorance of the law is no excuse .
But if you have a police badge or you work for the city , then you have qualified immunity or absolute immunity in the case of prosecutors .
So police officers can absolutely break the law and claim that they didn @ @ @ @ @ @ @ were doing and get away with it .
Taya Graham : When Freddie Gray died in our city , ignorance of the law was used as an excuse when the officer didn ’ t seatbelt Gray in the back of the van , and it resulted in his death .
We can ’ t use that same excuse , right ?
Regular civilians like us .
Otto the Watchd… : You fail to buckle your child in the backseat , it ’ s a crime .
And I think pretty much everybody knows @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
It ’ s on every single sign everywhere to “ Click it or ticket.
” So the police officers having somebody in handcuffs and can ’ t protect themselves , it ’ s their responsibility to buckle him in .
But again , like you said , yeah , yeah , they can get away with it because they wrote the rules for themselves , right ?
The whole system is designed to protect the system .
Taya Graham : Otto , I want to get some sense of your legal ordeals @ @ @ @ @ @ @ now ?
And how is this affecting your life ?
Otto the Watchd… : I am currently facing a fight , a big prosecution .
The most egregious in my mind , is a felony camping where I was arrested while camping with my children .
Ironically , I guess that ’ s probably why I ’ m here because the Karen reported that my brown baby may have been kidnapped because obviously , I have a lighter complexion .
So yeah , it ’ s rough .
But people think that they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ but [ inaudible 00:10:28 ] you don ’ t .
You get arrested and then you see the magistrate and you post a bond , so that ’ s money out of your pocket .
And if you and you go through a bondsman , you ’ ll never see the money again .
If you want an attorney , that ’ s going to cost a lot of money .
Traveling back and forth to court costs a lot of money .
Everything costs a lot of money .
So just to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ re supposed to be innocent until proven guilty , can actually bankrupt you .
And does , in fact , bankrupt most people .
The system will bankrupt the poor people .
Well , the people who can ’ t afford to go through the process , just get run over .
And then the middle class who can afford it , will bankrupt themselves , take loans out on their house , sell a vehicle , that kind of stuff .
Cut back on , whatever it is , and this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ convicted of anything .
Taya Graham : Otto , how much do you think these legal issues are the result of your work as a cop watcher ?
How much of this is retaliation ?
Otto the Watchd… : Oh personally , I think that all of it is because it started out as giving away potatoes and then before you knew it , I had felony charges .
I have no convictions .
I ’ ve never been a criminal at all .
And as a matter of fact , I ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of doing anything .
No one has accused me of doing anything at all .
My first arrest was for having written on a sign and saying the word .
The second arrest was because a Karen called the police to check on a brown baby .
So you don ’ t have to do anything to be arrested and face these charges .
You can literally be sleeping in your bed and be shot .
The police get all kinds of leniency .
And yeah , they say that you ’ re @ @ @ @ @ @ @ see no evidence of that existing .
Taya Graham : It ’ s interesting that , Otto , you evoke the phenomenon known as Karens ; generally white women who call the police on innocent African Americans for otherwise unremarkable encounters .
I think the explosion of Karen incidents proves a point we were trying to make at the beginning of the show .
For those with inordinate social power , policing is a tool to enforce it .
For the privileged , cops are just an extension of the walls and buffers @ @ @ @ @ @ @ rich to get richer , while the rest of us lose jobs and health insurance , basically the glue that holds the inequities of capitalism together .
I mean , think about what we recently witnessed in Kenosha , Wisconsin , the brutal shooting of Jacob Blake .
In this case , Blake was allegedly trying to break up a fight .
And when police arrived , they arrived and tried to tase him .
And then they shot him seven times .
But this tragic shooting wasn ’ t just fodder for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ viral and prompted calls for an arrest .
It was also the latest in a long string of police involved deaths , the results of minor calls or car stops .
In this case , Blake might ’ ve just been trying to intervene in a fight , just like countless other calls have led to death , like Philandro Castiel , who was shot and killed over a broken tail light in a Minneapolis suburb , or George Floyd , killed over an alleged counterfeit bill or Eric Garner , murdered over @ @ @ @ @ @ @ change .
The point is , there are a multitude of reasons basic policing results in irrational and deadly ends .
But at least one of them , is how essential law enforcement is to enforcing boundaries .
And as we said before , this task is so difficult because so much is at stake .
That ’ s because on the other side of the transom , on the other side of that wall , lies a more just society where healthcare is a human right .
Not the world we currently @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , 12 billionaires accrue more wealth than the rest of the country .
Or where 30 million people lose health insurance while the federal government fights in court to overturn the Affordable Care Act , which would leave millions more without access to a doctor .
And that ’ s the point ; historic wealth inequality can not be enforced solely with persuasion .
Over time , as cumulative injustice grows , inequality must find more forceful weapons to maintain its existential imbalance .
And unfortunately , oftentimes , that tool is a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is , what can we do to keep that power in check ?
I want to thank my guest , Otto the Watchdog , for his time and his tireless fight to protect the First Amendment .
Thank you , Otto .
Otto the Watchd… : Hey thanks .
It ’ s a pleasure to be here and keep up the fight .
Taya Graham : And of course , I have to thank intrepid journalist , Stephen Janis , for his investigative work , his help editing and writing .
Thank you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , thanks for having me .
I appreciate it .
Taya Graham : And I would be remiss if I did not thank friend of the show , Noli D , for her support .
Thanks , Noli D. And I want you watching to know that if you have evidence of police misconduct or brutality , please share it with us and we might be able to investigate .
Please reach out to us .
You can email us tips privately at parattherealnews.com , and share your evidence of police misconduct .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ Accountability Report on Facebook or Instagram or at Eyes on Police on Twitter .
Or of course , you can message me directly at Taya ’ s Baltimore on Twitter or Facebook .
And please like and comment , it really helps .
And of course , I do read your comments , appreciate them , and I try to answer your questions whenever I can .
My name is Taya Graham , and I am your host of the Police Accountability Report .
Please be safe out there .

Transcript
Taya Graham: Hello. My name is Taya Graham, and welcome to the Police Accountability Report. Remember, this show has a single purpose, holding the politically powerful institution of policing accountable, a purpose which appears to be growing more and more difficult by the day. That’s because even as we scrutinize the system which makes bad policing possible, the country’s law enforcement industrial complex has proven not just resilient but almost untouchable.
And to illustrate that point, we’re going to tell the story of one of our former guests. It’s a tale that reveals how police can target their immense powers at those who try to hold them accountable, even if the gesture is innocuous. His name is Otto the Watchdog, and he’s a well-known cop watcher. And I’m sure most of our regular viewers remember this: his arrest in Royse City, Texas for holding a sign one motorist found offensive. The sign pictured here, was at worst, a frank comment on the state of the country’s criminal justice system. But the encounter with police, which ended with the now famous Otto flop, is notable for something else, how far police and prosecutors are willing to pursue Otto for this victimless crime. That’s because even though Otto moved to Colorado, the county prosecutor has continued to press the case, requiring Otto return to Texas multiple times to court for a simple misdemeanor charge of disorderly conduct.
So what does Otto’s ordeal teach us, and what can we learn from it? Well let’s look at the facts. Otto holds a sign expressing his disgust with the system that he finds both oppressive and out of control. What’s more American than that? Police arrest him for exercising his Constitutional rights, but Otto refuses to stay silent. And then they use the criminal justice system to retaliate, a pursuit that has nothing to do with stemming violence, solving crimes, or bettering public safety. In fact, we actually have this recording of Royse County police chief accusing Otto, the man holding the sign, in participating in organized crime. Let’s listen.
Stephen Janis: He’s got case files on him that ain’t even hit yet. I’m telling you, he’s got stuff from there and in other counties that they’re going to try to put together and they’re going to try to get his assessment for organized crime. It’s going to happen. He needs to let it go. You can’t beat the system. If I was him, if I was in his shoes, if I was in his shoes, I would stay far away from Royse City and [inaudible 00:02:27] police officers that I could.
Taya Graham: But of course, the question is, why would Royse Police target auto for holding a sign? And what does it say about American policing that resources that could be used to improve public safety are instead aimed at a single man who wants to hold them accountable? To discuss this, first I’m going to talk to my reporting partner, Stephen Janis, who has reached out to prosecutors to find out why they continue to prosecute this case. Stephen, thank you for joining me.
Stephen Janis: Thanks for having me, Taya. I appreciate it.
Taya Graham: Now, Stephen, you talked to prosecutors in Rockwell County, the jurisdiction that handles the cases in Royse City. What did they tell you about why they continue to prosecute Otto’s case?
Stephen Janis: Well, we called, and they told us a whole lot of nothing. Someone put us on hold for 20 minutes and finally came back on the phone and said, “We can’t talk about it,” which I think is unusual. I mean, prosecutors when they take a case this far and for this long, should be accountable to the public and give some reason for spending the resources they’re expending on this particular case. So, so far they’re not talking, and I don’t think that’s an acceptable answer for the media.
Taya Graham: Now, as you were investigating Royse City Police, you came across some interesting data. Can you discuss this data?
Stephen Janis: Well, when I was trying to figure out why Royse was spending so much time on this, I looked at their 911 calls, which actually Otto brought this to my attention. One of their most common 911 call is for suspicious person. In fact, I went through about a month’s worth of calls, which total about 200, and 60 of those calls were roughly suspicious people. So Royse City, a city of 13,000, obviously has some strange issues going on with policing that don’t make any sense, because these calls include alarms and all sorts of stuff. So they’re really nothing seriously criminal here. The only criminal I can see is people calling and reporting other people as suspicious people. So I think it points to the problems that Otto was trying to point out about policing, that there’s something wrong with policing in Royse City in general.
Taya Graham: Stephen, this pattern fits into a concept we think is applicable to this phenomenon that says much about American policing and why auditors like Otto are facing so much pushback. Can you talk about it?
Stephen Janis: Yeah, I think this is a prime example of what we talked about in the show called Social Boundary Policing. In other words, policing, not crime or some sort of catastrophic event, but rather just trying to enforce social boundaries, where one person, for whatever reason, doesn’t like another person or a person of another race or another ethnicity and wants police to police those boundaries. Or just the boundaries of poverty and wealth, because there’s really no explanation for this other than the fact that police are immersed in social boundary policing.
And I think that’s a lot of what auditors are trying to call attention to, that policing in America is not about preventing crime or public safety, it’s about policing social boundaries that are created by wealth inequity and I think racial hostility, stoked by politicians. So I think this is a perfect example of that phenomenon.
Taya Graham: Now we have, in part, an example that shows both how American policing avoids accountability and perhaps why. First, as we see in the response from the prosecutors, they can spend a lot of public money pursuing Otto, as long as they want. They can drag the case on for years without any public accountability. They have the ability to force him back to Texas for hearing after hearing, no matter how petty the charge. And then perhaps we have the why, because it’s cop watchers like Otto, who through auditing the police, have revealed a deeper truism about law enforcement, which police don’t want you to see. And that’s the ugliness of a system that seems more interested in enforcing the aforementioned social boundaries than in fighting crime. It’s part of a trend in American law enforcement that we believe explains much of why people have flooded American streets with protests and why cops are constantly under fire for bad behavior.
I mean, if crime was a priority, then perhaps we wouldn’t have a national clearance rate of 20% on burglaries or here in our own city, we would not have a homicide clearance rate of 30%, meaning 70% of the homicides in Baltimore go unsolved. It’s one of the primary trues that auditors we spoke to have revealed in their work holding police accountable, like Kenneth Dunham being arrested for filming a police car. Or Laura Shark catching a cop literally taking the money from a sex worker in broad daylight. Or guitars Joe Workman arrested on a sidewalk for playing a guitar.
All these cases expose exactly what I’m talking about, one of the real reasons policing is so problematic in this country. And to talk more about this idea, I’m joined by the man at the center of this storm, Otto the Watchdog. Otto, thank you so much for joining us.
Otto the Watchdog: Hey, thank you Taya. It’s always a pleasure to be here.
Taya Graham: Otto, you told Stephen about all these suspicious persons cases in Royse. What’s causing them, and why are they happening?
Otto the Watchdog: Oh my god, let me tell you, it’s Karens. There’s Karens everywhere. And they see something, and they have to say something. But they see something that upsets them a little bit, and the only thing that they know to do is to tell everybody, right? And if nobody listens, then they call the cops. Because the police will listen, the police will respond. And if they encounter something that makes them personally feel just slightly uncomfortable or inconvenienced, they will dial 911 and they will complain about it, and the police will show up.
Taya Graham: Do you think this type of policing is part of why cop watchers like you are encountering so much resistance? Is it coming from the Karens, like you said, or is it the police or maybe it’s a combination of both?
Otto the Watchdog: It’s definitely a combination of both. The police rely on citizens to report crimes and assist them in the detection and apprehension of criminals. But what’s happened is that there’s people who don’t know what crimes are, and honestly, nobody knows what crimes are, including the police. As a matter of fact, if you call the police and ask them if a very specific action is against the law, they can’t tell you or won’t tell you.
And so, nobody will tell you what the law is until you’ve broken it. And then you get punished severely for not knowing the law. Because for you and me, ignorance of the law is no excuse. But if you have a police badge or you work for the city, then you have qualified immunity or absolute immunity in the case of prosecutors. So police officers can absolutely break the law and claim that they didn’t have any knowledge that they were doing and get away with it.
Taya Graham: When Freddie Gray died in our city, ignorance of the law was used as an excuse when the officer didn’t seatbelt Gray in the back of the van, and it resulted in his death. We can’t use that same excuse, right? Regular civilians like us.
Otto the Watchdog: You fail to buckle your child in the backseat, it’s a crime. And I think pretty much everybody knows that you have to wear a seatbelt. It’s on every single sign everywhere to “Click it or ticket.” So the police officers having somebody in handcuffs and can’t protect themselves, it’s their responsibility to buckle him in. But again, like you said, yeah, yeah, they can get away with it because they wrote the rules for themselves, right? The whole system is designed to protect the system.
Taya Graham: Otto, I want to get some sense of your legal ordeals. What are you going through right now? And how is this affecting your life?
Otto the Watchdog: I am currently facing a fight, a big prosecution. The most egregious in my mind, is a felony camping where I was arrested while camping with my children. Ironically, I guess that’s probably why I’m here because the Karen reported that my brown baby may have been kidnapped because obviously, I have a lighter complexion. So yeah, it’s rough.
But people think that they should get to go to court, but [inaudible 00:10:28] you don’t. You get arrested and then you see the magistrate and you post a bond, so that’s money out of your pocket. And if you and you go through a bondsman, you’ll never see the money again. If you want an attorney, that’s going to cost a lot of money. Traveling back and forth to court costs a lot of money. Everything costs a lot of money.
So just to be accused in a land that we’re supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, can actually bankrupt you. And does, in fact, bankrupt most people. The system will bankrupt the poor people. Well, the people who can’t afford to go through the process, just get run over. And then the middle class who can afford it, will bankrupt themselves, take loans out on their house, sell a vehicle, that kind of stuff. Cut back on, whatever it is, and this is all before you’ve been convicted of anything.
Taya Graham: Otto, how much do you think these legal issues are the result of your work as a cop watcher? How much of this is retaliation?
Otto the Watchdog: Oh personally, I think that all of it is because it started out as giving away potatoes and then before you knew it, I had felony charges. I have no convictions. I’ve never been a criminal at all. And as a matter of fact, I’ve yet to be actually be accused of doing anything. No one has accused me of doing anything at all. My first arrest was for having written on a sign and saying the word. The second arrest was because a Karen called the police to check on a brown baby. So you don’t have to do anything to be arrested and face these charges. You can literally be sleeping in your bed and be shot. The police get all kinds of leniency. And yeah, they say that you’re innocent until proven guilty, but I see no evidence of that existing.
Taya Graham: It’s interesting that, Otto, you evoke the phenomenon known as Karens; generally white women who call the police on innocent African Americans for otherwise unremarkable encounters. I think the explosion of Karen incidents proves a point we were trying to make at the beginning of the show. For those with inordinate social power, policing is a tool to enforce it. For the privileged, cops are just an extension of the walls and buffers that allow wealth to concentrate for the rich to get richer, while the rest of us lose jobs and health insurance, basically the glue that holds the inequities of capitalism together.
I mean, think about what we recently witnessed in Kenosha, Wisconsin, the brutal shooting of Jacob Blake. In this case, Blake was allegedly trying to break up a fight. And when police arrived, they arrived and tried to tase him. And then they shot him seven times. But this tragic shooting wasn’t just fodder for another disturbing video that’s gone viral and prompted calls for an arrest. It was also the latest in a long string of police involved deaths, the results of minor calls or car stops.
In this case, Blake might’ve just been trying to intervene in a fight, just like countless other calls have led to death, like Philandro Castiel, who was shot and killed over a broken tail light in a Minneapolis suburb, or George Floyd, killed over an alleged counterfeit bill or Eric Garner, murdered over the act of selling loose cigarettes for change. The point is, there are a multitude of reasons basic policing results in irrational and deadly ends. But at least one of them, is how essential law enforcement is to enforcing boundaries.
And as we said before, this task is so difficult because so much is at stake. That’s because on the other side of the transom, on the other side of that wall, lies a more just society where healthcare is a human right. Not the world we currently live in, where during a pandemic, 12 billionaires accrue more wealth than the rest of the country. Or where 30 million people lose health insurance while the federal government fights in court to overturn the Affordable Care Act, which would leave millions more without access to a doctor.
And that’s the point; historic wealth inequality cannot be enforced solely with persuasion. Over time, as cumulative injustice grows, inequality must find more forceful weapons to maintain its existential imbalance. And unfortunately, oftentimes, that tool is a cop with a badge. The question is, what can we do to keep that power in check?
I want to thank my guest, Otto the Watchdog, for his time and his tireless fight to protect the First Amendment. Thank you, Otto.
Otto the Watchdog: Hey thanks. It’s a pleasure to be here and keep up the fight.
Taya Graham: And of course, I have to thank intrepid journalist, Stephen Janis, for his investigative work, his help editing and writing. Thank you, Stephen.
Stephen Janis: Taya, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
Taya Graham: And I would be remiss if I did not thank friend of the show, Noli D, for her support. Thanks, Noli D. And I want you watching to know that if you have evidence of police misconduct or brutality, please share it with us and we might be able to investigate. Please reach out to us. You can email us tips privately at parattherealnews.com, and share your evidence of police misconduct. You can also message us at Police Accountability Report on Facebook or Instagram or at Eyes on Police on Twitter. Or of course, you can message me directly at Taya’s Baltimore on Twitter or Facebook.
And please like and comment, it really helps. And of course, I do read your comments, appreciate them, and I try to answer your questions whenever I can. My name is Taya Graham, and I am your host of the Police Accountability Report. Please be safe out there.
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therealnews--2020-09-04--Stop treating this like a normal election

Donald Trump : This will be the most corrupt election in the history of our country .
Speaker 2 : What do we want ?
Speaker 2 : When do we want it ?
Jaisal Noor : Welcome to The Real News .
I ’ m Jaisal Noor .
As President Trump continues to push baseless conspiracy theories , including that Black Lives Matter protests are being orchestrated to undermine his presidency , Joe Biden is visiting Kenosha , Wisconsin on Thursday .
Joe Biden : There ’ s been overwhelming requests that I do come , because what we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ got to heal .
We ’ ve got to put things together , bring people together .
And so my purpose in going will be to do just that , to be a positive influence on what ’ s going on .
Jaisal Noor : The police killing of Jacob Blake on August 23rd turned Kenosha into the epicenter of protest against police brutality .
Donald Trump visited Kenosha earlier in the week , ignoring calls from local leaders for him to stay away and said , “ It ’ s in fact @ @ @ @ @ @ @ being treated unfairly.
” Donald Trump : We have to condemn the dangerous anti-police rhetoric .
It ’ s getting more and more … it ’ s very unfair .
Jaisal Noor : Biden is planning on visiting Jacob Blake after Trump refused to do so .
Justin Blake , Jacob Blake ’ s uncle said of Biden ’ s visit quote , “ I ’ m not looking for anybody to come here and say nice things .
I ’ m looking for legislative promises , commitments , and if they ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s from MSNBC News .
In part to distract from the over 186,000 people who have died from COVID-19 , Trump has blamed Biden for rioting and looting and promoted unfounded conspiracy theories that people in quote , “ dark shadows ” were controlling the protests and Biden in an effort to oust him from power .
In response , Biden distinguished peaceful protest from rioting , which he condemned earlier in the week .
Joe Biden : It ’ s wrong in every way .
It divides instead of unites .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ families that serve the community .
It makes things worse across the board , not better .
Jaisal Noor : Yet , some in the media argue Biden must go further and have his own sister soldier moment if he ’ s going to win the election , which will likely come down to turn out in a handful of States like Wisconsin .
Well , now joining us to discuss this is Lester Spence , professor of Political Science and Africana Studies at Johns Hopkins University and author of Knocking the Hustle @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Politics .
Thanks so much for joining us , Lester , and give us your thoughts on this moment .
Trump , just yesterday telling people to vote twice in North Carolina , spouting crazier and crazier conspiracy theories by the day , which his base and conservative media are just eating up and amplifying .
And on the other hand , Biden is really a walking this centrist line in response to this moment .
Give us your thoughts .
Lester Spence : First of all , it ’ s important that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Trump says , that we actually be as not just stated clearly , but we state it as seriously as possible because there ’ s a tendency to laugh off what he says .
When he , for example , he tells , he basically told people to commit a felony .
Voting twice on purpose is a felony .
He basically told people to violate the law in the elections .
Simultaneously , we just found out that it looks like the Justice Department may be used to go after Black Lives @ @ @ @ @ @ @ extent you can find them , people associate associated with Antifa .
I think that the Justice Department is also supposed to release a report soon about the Russian investigation .
All these things are serious .
And then there are 185,000 deaths .
What I ’ m going to do , and I know you guys are going to edit this , but I ’ m just going to list the people that I know who ’ ve passed away , not by name , but by relationship to me .
One @ @ @ @ @ @ @ one of my high school classmates , one of my high school classmate ’ s five-year-old daughter , my first college girlfriend ’ s dad .
Two in separate instances , two kids from the neighborhood I grew up with , their parents ; one fraternity brother from Detroit that I didn ’ t know , but all my people did ; three fraternity brothers from Detroit that I did know , and then there ’ s some other names that I ’ m just forgetting .
That ’ s already 10 .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ many people to COVID as we lost in American casualties during the Vietnam War .
Trump has consistently not just expressed support for racism , not just expressed support for domestic terrorists .
The other day , he offered a legal defense for Kyle Rittenhouse , whose mom took him over state lines , armed him illegally and who ended up killing two white protesters and injuring a third , right ?
This is the context that we ’ re in .
And I know that ’ s long and I ’ m @ @ @ @ @ @ @ post-edited .
But that ’ s the context we ’ re in .
This context is not a normal electoral moment .
What ’ s going on is we ’ re having a number of opinion makers act as if it were a normal electoral moment , as if it were basically 1988 and Joe Biden is Michael Dukakis , and Trump is George W. Bush trotting out Willie Horton , and is not … Speaking as both somebody who ’ s living in this moment and trying to live in the moment @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as a political scientist , there are a number of different ways in which we can say this is not a normal election , or this is not 1980 .
I just go through them quickly .
One , is the assumption is that this is a bell curve election , right ?
The assumption is that there are these extremes on the left and right , and then there ’ s this middle , and that the best thing for the parties to do , in this case Biden , the best @ @ @ @ @ @ @ reach that middle voter , right ?
It works .
This is not a bell curve election .
It doesn ’ t look like this where most of the people in the middle .
It looks like this where most of the people on the left and the right .
Right ?
Thinking about this purely in electoral terms , any movement he makes towards that moderate middle of the road voter who for God ’ s reason , who for God knows why can ’ t decide between Biden and Trump ; @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on the tails , on that left tail .
He ’ s going to lose them .
For every one he thinks he gets , he loses two or three .
This is not a normal election .
Two , this is not a black and white election .
Right ?
I ’ ve had people reach out to me about black attitudes versus white attitudes on this .
When the reality is , is that the Democratic candidate hasn ’ t won a majority of the vote , the majority of the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s now in fact possible for the Democratic candidate to get a majority of the vote while not winning the white vote .
That says how we ’ ve shifted as a country , right ?
Hillary Clinton won the popular vote , but not the white vote .
Obama in both of his elections won the popular vote and won the election without winning the white vote .
This is not a black and white issue .
We shouldn ’ t be focusing necessarily on white voters , right ?
There @ @ @ @ @ @ @ folks that we should be focusing on who actually know the difference between Trump and Biden , and then who actually know the difference between people who are who protesting in whatever means out of anger against police brutality and people have some other ideas .
Those are just a couple of things .
What else is different ?
What else is different is that our identities , right ?
The idea is that this fear is going to cause people to think primarily about their identities maybe as homeowners , or is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ identity that will cause them to go to Trump .
This presumes a couple of things .
One , is that the fear of COVID isn ’ t actually bigger , 185,000 deaths .
I just named 10 people .
Two , that our identities are not in fact malleable , right ?
That is to say that I am at every moment in time a black man .
But when I was teaching Monday , the first day of school virtually , I wasn ’ t thinking about being a black man @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Even as I was teaching courses that were related to race , blackness and our vanity .
Identities are malleable and they can actually be moved and shaped by a number of forces , including popular opinion , which is what made me so pissed .
To make a long story a bit shorter , I saw so much of this stuff coming out , whether it ’ s George Will ’ s article saying he needs a sister soldier moment .
I think The Atlantic had a piece .
I think the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ coming up .
That I was like , damn .
I mean , this isn ’ t a 1988 , and it ’ s not just not 1988 from a pure intellectual sense .
Politically speaking as if it is 1988 has political consequences .
That is , we know that people who are running campaigns , in part because this campaign is so unique , we know that they ’ re increasingly forced to rely on their campaign apparatus , on the one hand .
And then on opinion makers , elite @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are the Sunday news shows saying ?
What are the elite columnists saying ?
Right ?
The more that line is articulated , the more that line ’ s articulated , you have to make us come out against looting .
You have to come out against looting .
It not only gets the story wrong , but it plays into the Trump argument .
Anything that plays into the argument that this is a quasi-normal election context and that fear of black and non-black radical protesters is going to drive this election @ @ @ @ @ @ @ fundamental differences between this election and Trump from anything we ’ ve experienced , the more we increase the likelihood that Trump will in fact win legitimately .
Jaisal Noor : Right .
I ’ ll shut up .
Biden reportedly is pivoting back to focusing on COVID-19 .
That was the latest report I read in Reuters before this interview .
To hammer the issue that you ’ re talking about , Trump ’ s disastrous response , the fact that he dismissed the concerns .
Now he ’ s announced they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ possibly days before the election .
But again , the issue of turnout .
I want to ask you specifically about turnout , because we know that in 2016 , turnout was down in Wisconsin for Democrats , and there was massive voter suppression .
And you know , of course , Hillary Clinton didn ’ t go to Wisconsin , which ended up becoming a very pivotal state .
Biden ’ s showing up there .
But do you think that his … We heard his comments on looting and rioting .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ biggest get-out-the-vote tool the Democrats have and what should Biden be saying right now in your opinion ?
Lester Spence : I think , so I would add to that , right ?
Because it ’ s not just about what Biden should be doing electorally to win , for the election .
But it ’ s also , what should we be doing as people who write about this to larger publics ?
What is our responsibility ?
Because I was frustrated with what I heard from Biden and I remain frustrated @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on this news program .
Biden wasn ’ t … I gave money to Sanders .
I gave money to Warren too , but I ’ ve supported Sanders .
I think Biden was horrible , but he ’ s that centrist guy .
He ’ s doing that centrist thing .
I ’ m upset at that , but I ’ m also upset at us in effect , because I think what we should be doing is taking more care to understand what makes this moment different .
Right ?
For @ @ @ @ @ @ @ about turnout and that is important , and you bring up the point that Hillary Clinton didn ’ t go to Wisconsin , and she didn ’ t go to Michigan either .
Right ?
I think Russia did meddle in the election .
I think there was voter suppression .
And I think her not going to those places because she just thought she had it in the bag were all leading dynamics in Trump ’ s win , in Trump ’ s victory .
Biden going to Wisconsin from a turnout @ @ @ @ @ @ @ he ’ s doing something that Clinton didn ’ t do .
And I think that he should be focused on turnout , and I think he should be focused on driving home how horrific COVID-19 is , how horrific the pandemic is .
I mean , again , three times as many people as we lost in Vietnam .
I think by time November rolls around , it ’ ll probably be five times as many , and we wouldn ’ t be that far away from as many people as we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ something that horrific , we should be driving home that message incessantly .
But in addition , I think turnout is going to be important , but the more important thing is , is that he ’ s going to actively work to steal the election .
Actively .
He ’ s going to actively work to make his supporters not accept the victory if it happens .
Under that context , it ’ s not just the media ’ s role to instead of focusing on the turnout or on the polls @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
It ’ s also important to start articulating the line of argument that will allow people on the other side to accept a victory .
I mean , except a Biden victory if it happens , and to accept the idea that the election might not be figured out at the moment , right ?
Because if we for example , if we get a lot of people are … I ’ m going to vote by mail .
If a lot of people vote by mail , not only will we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s very possible if that democratic mail-in vote outstrips the Republican counterpart , it may actually look like Trump wins decisively on election night .
What happens if Trump looks like he ’ s leading decisively on election night , and he says , “ I think we should call the election .
I won .
What happens after the day is unfair.
” And then he sends the people to the streets .
What do we do then ?
Now , what you and I can do is limited as people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we , and extending it to opinion makers , to The Real News Network in general , it ’ s our responsibility to actually articulate not just to articulate , even if we ’ re not going to necessarily pick and choose .
You all know I ’ m on the left , but I ’ m going to vote for Biden .
I know a lot of people aren ’ t going to vote .
It ’ s all good .
That ’ s another conversation .
But if we ’ re @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have to at least articulate , create the conditions where we can have a peaceful transfer of power when Biden wins .
That ’ s goes beyond again .
So yeah , we have to talk about turnout .
I guess we have to talk about polls and the horse race aspect of it .
But the stakes are so much higher .
There ’ s so much literally going on .
Then I ’ ll reiterate something I said earlier .
We have to take what he says seriously .
We can @ @ @ @ @ @ @ his mouth and then laugh it off like , “ Oh wow .
He ’ s told people to vote twice tomorrow.
” Right ?
We know for example , that when he told people to take bleach , people actually did it .
Right ?
People actually died because Trump said , “ Take bleach.
” We have to treat his statement seriously .
Now , we ’ re all living in a … it ’ s weird .
I use the example often of the sun .
Right now it ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ If you were to go outside of your crib and look at the sun , you can say , “ Wow , that ’ s where the sun is.
” No , that ’ s where the sun was eight minutes ago , because it takes about eight minutes for light to the sun to travel to the Earth .
What we ’ re doing now is we ’ re writing and reacting as if it isn ’ t 2020 and we don ’ t have mad man in office who doesn ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we didn ’ t just lose 185,000 people , as if there isn ’ t a reason why we ’ re doing this virtually instead of me being in the studio .
Jaisal Noor : Well , I hope we ’ re all preparing for that .
I mean , what seems like inevitable that Trump will not accept the results because that ’ s … he ’ s said it , he said it .
He said it straight up , said it already , if he loses , it ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And as we ’ ve talked about , he has incited his followers to carry out acts of violence and defended them after they have done so , and promised to go after Black Lives Matters and Antifa and other groups .
These are the stakes , and this is definitely not a game and some serious stuff .
Lester Spence : And I ’ ll say one more thing .
And I swear I don ’ t normally … I say one more thing .
If you ’ re an opinion maker @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , if you don ’ t know how to write and treat this moment as if it ’ s 2020 , you need to get another fucking job .
Jaisal Noor : All right .
Well , we ’ re going to leave it on that note .
Lester Spence , thank you so much for joining us .
Lester Spence : Thanks for having me .
Jaisal Noor : Thank you for joining us at The Real News Network .

Ignoring the unique threats Trump presents could destroy our democracy, warns professor Lester Spence.
Story Transcript
Donald Trump: This will be the most corrupt election in the history of our country.
Speaker 2: What do we want?
Group : Justice.
Speaker 2: When do we want it?
Group : Now.
Jaisal Noor: Welcome to The Real News. I’m Jaisal Noor. As President Trump continues to push baseless conspiracy theories, including that Black Lives Matter protests are being orchestrated to undermine his presidency, Joe Biden is visiting Kenosha, Wisconsin on Thursday.
Joe Biden: There’s been overwhelming requests that I do come, because what we want to do is we’ve got to heal. We’ve got to put things together, bring people together. And so my purpose in going will be to do just that, to be a positive influence on what’s going on.
Jaisal Noor: The police killing of Jacob Blake on August 23rd turned Kenosha into the epicenter of protest against police brutality. Donald Trump visited Kenosha earlier in the week, ignoring calls from local leaders for him to stay away and said, “It’s in fact police accused of excessive force that are being treated unfairly.”
Donald Trump: We have to condemn the dangerous anti-police rhetoric. It’s getting more and more … it’s very unfair.
Jaisal Noor: Biden is planning on visiting Jacob Blake after Trump refused to do so. Justin Blake, Jacob Blake’s uncle said of Biden’s visit quote, “I’m not looking for anybody to come here and say nice things. I’m looking for legislative promises, commitments, and if they’re elected, swift action.” That’s from MSNBC News. In part to distract from the over 186,000 people who have died from COVID-19, Trump has blamed Biden for rioting and looting and promoted unfounded conspiracy theories that people in quote, “dark shadows” were controlling the protests and Biden in an effort to oust him from power. In response, Biden distinguished peaceful protest from rioting, which he condemned earlier in the week.
Joe Biden: It’s wrong in every way. It divides instead of unites. Destroys businesses. Only hurts the working families that serve the community. It makes things worse across the board, not better.
Jaisal Noor: Yet, some in the media argue Biden must go further and have his own sister soldier moment if he’s going to win the election, which will likely come down to turn out in a handful of States like Wisconsin. Well, now joining us to discuss this is Lester Spence, professor of Political Science and Africana Studies at Johns Hopkins University and author of Knocking the Hustle: Against the Neoliberal Turn in Black Politics. Thanks so much for joining us, Lester, and give us your thoughts on this moment. Trump, just yesterday telling people to vote twice in North Carolina, spouting crazier and crazier conspiracy theories by the day, which his base and conservative media are just eating up and amplifying. And on the other hand, Biden is really a walking this centrist line in response to this moment. Give us your thoughts.
Lester Spence: First of all, it’s important that when we’re talking about stuff Trump says, that we actually be as not just stated clearly, but we state it as seriously as possible because there’s a tendency to laugh off what he says. When he, for example, he tells, he basically told people to commit a felony. Voting twice on purpose is a felony. He basically told people to violate the law in the elections. Simultaneously, we just found out that it looks like the Justice Department may be used to go after Black Lives Matter protesters, and then to the extent you can find them, people associate associated with Antifa.
I think that the Justice Department is also supposed to release a report soon about the Russian investigation. All these things are serious. And then there are 185,000 deaths. What I’m going to do, and I know you guys are going to edit this, but I’m just going to list the people that I know who’ve passed away, not by name, but by relationship to me. One of my best friends in college, one of my high school classmates, one of my high school classmate’s five-year-old daughter, my first college girlfriend’s dad. Two in separate instances, two kids from the neighborhood I grew up with, their parents; one fraternity brother from Detroit that I didn’t know, but all my people did; three fraternity brothers from Detroit that I did know, and then there’s some other names that I’m just forgetting. That’s already 10.
We’ve lost three times as many people to COVID as we lost in American casualties during the Vietnam War. Trump has consistently not just expressed support for racism, not just expressed support for domestic terrorists. The other day, he offered a legal defense for Kyle Rittenhouse, whose mom took him over state lines, armed him illegally and who ended up killing two white protesters and injuring a third, right? This is the context that we’re in. And I know that’s long and I’m hoping it doesn’t get cut post-edited. But that’s the context we’re in. This context is not a normal electoral moment.
What’s going on is we’re having a number of opinion makers act as if it were a normal electoral moment, as if it were basically 1988 and Joe Biden is Michael Dukakis, and Trump is George W. Bush trotting out Willie Horton, and is not … Speaking as both somebody who’s living in this moment and trying to live in the moment as it’s going on and as a political scientist, there are a number of different ways in which we can say this is not a normal election, or this is not 1980. I just go through them quickly. One, is the assumption is that this is a bell curve election, right? The assumption is that there are these extremes on the left and right, and then there’s this middle, and that the best thing for the parties to do, in this case Biden, the best thing for Biden to do is to reach that middle voter, right? It works.
This is not a bell curve election. It doesn’t look like this where most of the people in the middle. It looks like this where most of the people on the left and the right. Right? Thinking about this purely in electoral terms, any movement he makes towards that moderate middle of the road voter who for God’s reason, who for God knows why can’t decide between Biden and Trump; he’s going to lose people on the tails, on that left tail. He’s going to lose them. For every one he thinks he gets, he loses two or three. This is not a normal election.
Two, this is not a black and white election. Right? I’ve had people reach out to me about black attitudes versus white attitudes on this. When the reality is, is that the Democratic candidate hasn’t won a majority of the vote, the majority of the white vote in decades. And it’s now in fact possible for the Democratic candidate to get a majority of the vote while not winning the white vote. That says how we’ve shifted as a country, right? Hillary Clinton won the popular vote, but not the white vote. Obama in both of his elections won the popular vote and won the election without winning the white vote. This is not a black and white issue. We shouldn’t be focusing necessarily on white voters, right? There’s this whole multiracial group of folks that we should be focusing on who actually know the difference between Trump and Biden, and then who actually know the difference between people who are who protesting in whatever means out of anger against police brutality and people have some other ideas. Those are just a couple of things.
What else is different? What else is different is that our identities, right? The idea is that this fear is going to cause people to think primarily about their identities maybe as homeowners, or is going to provoke some type of fearful identity that will cause them to go to Trump. This presumes a couple of things. One, is that the fear of COVID isn’t actually bigger, 185,000 deaths. I just named 10 people. Two, that our identities are not in fact malleable, right? That is to say that I am at every moment in time a black man. But when I was teaching Monday, the first day of school virtually, I wasn’t thinking about being a black man. I was thinking about teaching. Even as I was teaching courses that were related to race, blackness and our vanity. Identities are malleable and they can actually be moved and shaped by a number of forces, including popular opinion, which is what made me so pissed.
To make a long story a bit shorter, I saw so much of this stuff coming out, whether it’s George Will’s article saying he needs a sister soldier moment. I think The Atlantic had a piece. I think the New York Times might have a piece coming up. That I was like, damn. I mean, this isn’t a 1988, and it’s not just not 1988 from a pure intellectual sense. Politically speaking as if it is 1988 has political consequences. That is, we know that people who are running campaigns, in part because this campaign is so unique, we know that they’re increasingly forced to rely on their campaign apparatus, on the one hand. And then on opinion makers, elite opinion makers on the other. What are the Sunday news shows saying? What are the elite columnists saying? Right?
The more that line is articulated, the more that line’s articulated, you have to make us come out against looting. You have to come out against looting. It not only gets the story wrong, but it plays into the Trump argument. Anything that plays into the argument that this is a quasi-normal election context and that fear of black and non-black radical protesters is going to drive this election and doesn’t drive home the fundamental differences between this election and Trump from anything we’ve experienced, the more we increase the likelihood that Trump will in fact win legitimately.
Jaisal Noor: Right. I’ll shut up. Biden reportedly is pivoting back to focusing on COVID-19. That was the latest report I read in Reuters before this interview. To hammer the issue that you’re talking about, Trump’s disastrous response, the fact that he dismissed the concerns. Now he’s announced they may be rolling out an unapproved vaccine possibly days before the election. But again, the issue of turnout. I want to ask you specifically about turnout, because we know that in 2016, turnout was down in Wisconsin for Democrats, and there was massive voter suppression. And you know, of course, Hillary Clinton didn’t go to Wisconsin, which ended up becoming a very pivotal state. Biden’s showing up there. But do you think that his … We heard his comments on looting and rioting. Do think that Trump could be the biggest get-out-the-vote tool the Democrats have and what should Biden be saying right now in your opinion?
Lester Spence: I think, so I would add to that, right? Because it’s not just about what Biden should be doing electorally to win, for the election. But it’s also, what should we be doing as people who write about this to larger publics? What is our responsibility? Because I was frustrated with what I heard from Biden and I remain frustrated. I’ve said this before on this news program. Biden wasn’t … I gave money to Sanders. I gave money to Warren too, but I’ve supported Sanders. I think Biden was horrible, but he’s that centrist guy. He’s doing that centrist thing. I’m upset at that, but I’m also upset at us in effect, because I think what we should be doing is taking more care to understand what makes this moment different. Right? For example, in one way you ask about turnout and that is important, and you bring up the point that Hillary Clinton didn’t go to Wisconsin, and she didn’t go to Michigan either. Right?
I think Russia did meddle in the election. I think there was voter suppression. And I think her not going to those places because she just thought she had it in the bag were all leading dynamics in Trump’s win, in Trump’s victory. Biden going to Wisconsin from a turnout standpoint makes sense, right? Because he’s doing something that Clinton didn’t do. And I think that he should be focused on turnout, and I think he should be focused on driving home how horrific COVID-19 is, how horrific the pandemic is. I mean, again, three times as many people as we lost in Vietnam. I think by time November rolls around, it’ll probably be five times as many, and we wouldn’t be that far away from as many people as we lost in World War II.
With something that horrific, we should be driving home that message incessantly. But in addition, I think turnout is going to be important, but the more important thing is, is that he’s going to actively work to steal the election. Actively. He’s going to actively work to make his supporters not accept the victory if it happens. Under that context, it’s not just the media’s role to instead of focusing on the turnout or on the polls, to focus on this growing apparatus. It’s also important to start articulating the line of argument that will allow people on the other side to accept a victory. I mean, except a Biden victory if it happens, and to accept the idea that the election might not be figured out at the moment, right? Because if we for example, if we get a lot of people are … I’m going to vote by mail.
If a lot of people vote by mail, not only will we not know on election night, it’s very possible if that democratic mail-in vote outstrips the Republican counterpart, it may actually look like Trump wins decisively on election night. What happens if Trump looks like he’s leading decisively on election night, and he says, “I think we should call the election. I won. What happens after the day is unfair.” And then he sends the people to the streets. What do we do then? Now, what you and I can do is limited as people in that moment. But inasmuch as we, and extending it to opinion makers, to The Real News Network in general, it’s our responsibility to actually articulate not just to articulate, even if we’re not going to necessarily pick and choose. You all know I’m on the left, but I’m going to vote for Biden.
I know a lot of people aren’t going to vote. It’s all good. That’s another conversation. But if we’re not going to do that, we have to at least articulate, create the conditions where we can have a peaceful transfer of power when Biden wins. That’s goes beyond again. So yeah, we have to talk about turnout. I guess we have to talk about polls and the horse race aspect of it. But the stakes are so much higher. There’s so much literally going on. Then I’ll reiterate something I said earlier. We have to take what he says seriously. We can’t articulate what Trump says with his mouth and then laugh it off like, “Oh wow. He’s told people to vote twice tomorrow.” Right?
We know for example, that when he told people to take bleach, people actually did it. Right? People actually died because Trump said, “Take bleach.” We have to treat his statement seriously. Now, we’re all living in a … it’s weird. I use the example often of the sun. Right now it’s a sunny day in Baltimore. If you were to go outside of your crib and look at the sun, you can say, “Wow, that’s where the sun is.” No, that’s where the sun was eight minutes ago, because it takes about eight minutes for light to the sun to travel to the Earth. What we’re doing now is we’re writing and reacting as if it isn’t 2020 and we don’t have mad man in office who doesn’t care about democracy, as if we didn’t just lose 185,000 people, as if there isn’t a reason why we’re doing this virtually instead of me being in the studio.
Jaisal Noor: Well, I hope we’re all preparing for that. I mean, what seems like inevitable that Trump will not accept the results because that’s … he’s said it, he said it. He said it straight up, said it already, if he loses, it’s, “The election is rigged.” And as we’ve talked about, he has incited his followers to carry out acts of violence and defended them after they have done so, and promised to go after Black Lives Matters and Antifa and other groups. These are the stakes, and this is definitely not a game and some serious stuff.
Lester Spence: And I’ll say one more thing. And I swear I don’t normally … I say one more thing. If you’re an opinion maker, if you’re a writer, if you don’t know how to write and treat this moment as if it’s 2020, you need to get another fucking job.
Jaisal Noor: All right. Well, we’re going to leave it on that note. Lester Spence, thank you so much for joining us.
Lester Spence: Thanks for having me.
Jaisal Noor: Thank you for joining us at The Real News Network.
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therealnews--2020-09-08--5 Alarm Fascism: Trump’s Burning it All Down