therealnews--2020-03-19--Biden Is Wrong—Single-Payer Healthcare Does Help Fight Pandemics

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
Greg Wilpert : It ’ s the Real News Network .
I ’ m Greg Wilpert in Arlington , Virginia .
As the coronavirus continues to spread exponentially across the world and the United States , the question increasingly comes up whether the US healthcare system is equipped to deal with the crisis .
This is an issue that took on a particularly significant role in the recent democratic presidential debate between Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders .
Sanders argued that Medicare for all or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it ’ s also known , would be a tremendous help in dealing with the pandemic .
Biden , though , responded as follows .
Joe Biden : With all due respect to Medicare for all , you have a single payer system in Italy .
It doesn ’ t work there .
It has nothing to do with Medicare for all .
That would not solve the problem at all .
We can take care of that right now by making sure that no one has to pay for treatment , period @ @ @ @ @ @ @ one has to pay for whatever drugs are needed , period , because of the crisis , no one has to pay for hospitalization because of the crisis , period .
That is a national emergency , and that ’ s how it ’ s handled .
It is not working in Italy right now , and they have a single payer system .
Greg Wilpert : During the debates , Sanders did not respond to Biden ’ s claim that Italy ’ s single payer system did not help stem the spread @ @ @ @ @ @ @ useful would a single payer system be for coping with a pandemic such as the coronavirus ?
Joining me now to explore this question is Dr. Jim Khan .
He ’ s professor emeritus of health policy epidemiology and global health at the University of California San Francisco .
Also , he is an expert on health system design .
Thanks for joining us today , Dr. Khan .
Jim Khan : Happy to be here .
Greg Wilpert : So in what ways would Medicare for all help in a situation such @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : Well , a proper response to a looming pandemic involves several steps .
Italy did not do sufficient testing , and that led to the epidemic being worse there .
Also , their population is quite a bit older than other places , and that affected the severity of disease , but another critical piece of the response is to have a healthcare system that does not have any financial barriers to seeking care .
Single payer Medicare for all would make sure everyone has insurance without any substantial cost sharing , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ would mean that when people get sick , they go to the doctor , and as appropriate , they get tested and may then self isolate to prevent infecting others .
In addition , single payer offers really good data on what ’ s going on in the health system .
Right now , today , our data systems are chaotic .
Every provider has a different electronic health record , and the billing systems vary from one insurer to the next , and so you can ’ t collect data on clinical @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it .
Under single payer , you ’ d basically have big data for health encounters , and that would be useful to guide the epidemic response .
In fact , in Taiwan , which has a single payer system , they combine that with extensive testing and with use of the clinical data from these encounters for billing in order to have just about the best epidemic control or pandemic control that we ’ ve seen for coronavirus .
Greg Wilpert : Just quickly , in terms of , you mentioned cost @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that the United States has health insurance coverage for between 80 and 90 % of the population .
So in what way would this issue of cost sharing impact how the academic is being dealt with ?
Jim Khan : Well , first of all , there is the 10 % or more who don ’ t have insurance at any point in time .
So those people , of course , have huge financial barriers , but more importantly , of the people who are insured , about a third are underinsured @ @ @ @ @ @ @ deductible , sometimes many thousands of dollars plus substantial copays and cost sharing , and there ’ s ample evidence that shows that people who are under-insured in that way are much less likely to go to the doctor and report frequent episodes of delaying or foregoing care because of financial barriers .
So even a system that increased the percent of the population that ’ s insured but left people under-insured would not solve this problem .
Greg Wilpert : I just want to return to the question about Italy , that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ didn ’ t work .
Now you mentioned , of course , the problem with the lack of testing in Italy .
So just briefly , in what ways might that not have happened or not have been an issue that it had single payer ?
Jim Khan : So I think there are three legs to the stool if you ’ re trying to have a strong pandemic response .
One leg is having strong public health infrastructure , another leg is recognizing independent and taking action quickly , and the third @ @ @ @ @ @ @ so that they can see their doctor .
So Italy failed in the relatively lax response to the second leg , that is they didn ’ t respond quickly enough , they didn ’ t implement widespread testing .
Taiwan did , South Korea did a lot of testing and also did much better at controlling the pandemic .
Greg Wilpert : One of the main arguments that Biden has also against Medicare for all is that it ’ s not clear how it would be funded and that even if it is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on the middle class and would generally be too expensive for the United States .
Recently , Biden even said that he would veto a Medicare for all bill should it pass Congress while he is president .
Now , we have a clip here from an interview that he conducted with MSNBC , with Lawrence O ’ Donnell .
Lawrence O ’ Donn… : Let ’ s assume , and I ’ ve asked other candidates this kind of question , veto question .
Let ’ s flash forward , you ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ active in the senate , he manages to get Medicare for all through the senate in some compromise version , the Elizabeth Warren version or other version , Nancy Pelosi gets a version of it through the house representatives .
It comes to your desk .
Do you veto it ?
Joe Biden : I would veto anything that delays providing a security and the certainty of healthcare being available now .
If they got that through by some miracle and there was an epiphany that occurred , and some miracle occurred that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s passed , ” then you ’ ve got to look at the cost .
I want to know , how did they find $ 35 trillion ?
What is that doing ?
Is it going to significantly raise taxes on the middle-class , which it will .
What ’ s going to happen ?
Greg Wilpert : What ’ s your response to Biden ’ s argument that Medicare for all would be too expensive ?
Jim Khan : Well , my response is our current system is too expensive .
It @ @ @ @ @ @ @ $ 600 billion per year in unnecessary paperwork because of the complexity of our insurance system .
If we took that $ 600 billion a year and put it into care , then we could provide people the care they need without costing more .
In fact , if you add up the savings from simpler paperwork plus negotiating more reasonable drug prices and other ways to decrease costs , the best estimates are that we would save on the order of eight to 10 % or more .
Let me be clear @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we would cover everyone with first dollar coverage , and at the same time , save about 10 % of our healthcare costs .
In my field , that ’ s called a dominant solution .
It ’ s cheaper and it ’ s better .
Why wouldn ’ t we want to do it ?
Greg Wilpert : What about the issue or the question about whether individuals would end up having to pay too much ?
One of the points that Biden makes is also that it would raise the tax @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s your response to that argument ?
Jim Khan : Well , the role of taxes under single payer is to replace the premiums and out of pocket costs that families currently have to pay , and since Medicare for all would save money , perhaps 10 % , you actually have some wiggle room there to put in taxes that are progressive , focused on people who earn a lot more money or who are extremely wealthy , while protecting the middle class and certainly protecting the lower middle class .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ currently earning low and moderate amounts of money would save , because they would pay less for the premiums , and their taxes , if they go up at all , would go up a lot less .
Another important consideration is that wages have been stagnant for decades .
Why is that ?
That ’ s because employers have had to pay a lot more for health insurance , and that comes out of wages .
Without that obligation , we would see wages start to increase , and that would be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ trend of static wages .
Greg Wilpert : We ’ re going to leave it there for now .
I was speaking to Dr. Jim Khan , professor emiritus of health policy epidemiology and global health at the University of California San Francisco .
Thanks again , Jim , for having joined us today .
Greg Wilpert : Thank you for joining the Real News Network .

In the last Democratic candidate debate, Biden claimed that single-payer healthcare didn’t help Italy fight the coronavirus. Health system expert Dr. James Kahn explains why he was wrong.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Greg Wilpert: It’s the Real News Network. I’m Greg Wilpert in Arlington, Virginia. As the coronavirus continues to spread exponentially across the world and the United States, the question increasingly comes up whether the US healthcare system is equipped to deal with the crisis. This is an issue that took on a particularly significant role in the recent democratic presidential debate between Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders. Sanders argued that Medicare for all or single payer health care system, as it’s also known, would be a tremendous help in dealing with the pandemic. Biden, though, responded as follows.
Joe Biden: With all due respect to Medicare for all, you have a single payer system in Italy. It doesn’t work there. It has nothing to do with Medicare for all. That would not solve the problem at all. We can take care of that right now by making sure that no one has to pay for treatment, period, because of the crisis, no one has to pay for whatever drugs are needed, period, because of the crisis, no one has to pay for hospitalization because of the crisis, period. That is a national emergency, and that’s how it’s handled. It is not working in Italy right now, and they have a single payer system.
Greg Wilpert: During the debates, Sanders did not respond to Biden’s claim that Italy’s single payer system did not help stem the spread of the coronavirus. So just how useful would a single payer system be for coping with a pandemic such as the coronavirus? Joining me now to explore this question is Dr. Jim Kahn. He’s professor emeritus of health policy epidemiology and global health at the University of California San Francisco. Also, he is an expert on health system design. Thanks for joining us today, Dr. Kahn.
Jim Kahn: Happy to be here.
Greg Wilpert: So in what ways would Medicare for all help in a situation such as the coronavirus pandemic?
Jim Kahn: Well, a proper response to a looming pandemic involves several steps. Italy did not do sufficient testing, and that led to the epidemic being worse there. Also, their population is quite a bit older than other places, and that affected the severity of disease, but another critical piece of the response is to have a healthcare system that does not have any financial barriers to seeking care. Single payer Medicare for all would make sure everyone has insurance without any substantial cost sharing, and maybe none at all.
That would mean that when people get sick, they go to the doctor, and as appropriate, they get tested and may then self isolate to prevent infecting others. In addition, single payer offers really good data on what’s going on in the health system. Right now, today, our data systems are chaotic. Every provider has a different electronic health record, and the billing systems vary from one insurer to the next, and so you can’t collect data on clinical encounters and study it and learn from it. Under single payer, you’d basically have big data for health encounters, and that would be useful to guide the epidemic response. In fact, in Taiwan, which has a single payer system, they combine that with extensive testing and with use of the clinical data from these encounters for billing in order to have just about the best epidemic control or pandemic control that we’ve seen for coronavirus.
Greg Wilpert: Just quickly, in terms of, you mentioned cost sharing, now generally, it said that the United States has health insurance coverage for between 80 and 90% of the population. So in what way would this issue of cost sharing impact how the academic is being dealt with?
Jim Kahn: Well, first of all, there is the 10% or more who don’t have insurance at any point in time. So those people, of course, have huge financial barriers, but more importantly, of the people who are insured, about a third are underinsured, which means they have very high deductible, sometimes many thousands of dollars plus substantial copays and cost sharing, and there’s ample evidence that shows that people who are under-insured in that way are much less likely to go to the doctor and report frequent episodes of delaying or foregoing care because of financial barriers. So even a system that increased the percent of the population that’s insured but left people under-insured would not solve this problem.
Greg Wilpert: I just want to return to the question about Italy, that in Italy, Biden said that it didn’t work. Now you mentioned, of course, the problem with the lack of testing in Italy. So just briefly, in what ways might that not have happened or not have been an issue that it had single payer?
Jim Kahn: So I think there are three legs to the stool if you’re trying to have a strong pandemic response. One leg is having strong public health infrastructure, another leg is recognizing independent and taking action quickly, and the third leg is everyone having really good insurance so that they can see their doctor. So Italy failed in the relatively lax response to the second leg, that is they didn’t respond quickly enough, they didn’t implement widespread testing. Taiwan did, South Korea did a lot of testing and also did much better at controlling the pandemic.
Greg Wilpert: One of the main arguments that Biden has also against Medicare for all is that it’s not clear how it would be funded and that even if it is properly funded, it would raise taxes on the middle class and would generally be too expensive for the United States. Recently, Biden even said that he would veto a Medicare for all bill should it pass Congress while he is president. Now, we have a clip here from an interview that he conducted with MSNBC, with Lawrence O’Donnell.
Lawrence O’Donn…: Let’s assume, and I’ve asked other candidates this kind of question, veto question. Let’s flash forward, you’re president, Bernie Sanders is still active in the senate, he manages to get Medicare for all through the senate in some compromise version, the Elizabeth Warren version or other version, Nancy Pelosi gets a version of it through the house representatives. It comes to your desk. Do you veto it?
Joe Biden: I would veto anything that delays providing a security and the certainty of healthcare being available now. If they got that through by some miracle and there was an epiphany that occurred, and some miracle occurred that said, “Okay, it’s passed,” then you’ve got to look at the cost. I want to know, how did they find $35 trillion? What is that doing? Is it going to significantly raise taxes on the middle-class, which it will. What’s going to happen?
Greg Wilpert: What’s your response to Biden’s argument that Medicare for all would be too expensive?
Jim Kahn: Well, my response is our current system is too expensive. It’s wasteful. We spend about $600 billion per year in unnecessary paperwork because of the complexity of our insurance system. If we took that $600 billion a year and put it into care, then we could provide people the care they need without costing more. In fact, if you add up the savings from simpler paperwork plus negotiating more reasonable drug prices and other ways to decrease costs, the best estimates are that we would save on the order of eight to 10% or more. Let me be clear, what I’m saying is we would cover everyone with first dollar coverage, and at the same time, save about 10% of our healthcare costs. In my field, that’s called a dominant solution. It’s cheaper and it’s better. Why wouldn’t we want to do it?
Greg Wilpert: What about the issue or the question about whether individuals would end up having to pay too much? One of the points that Biden makes is also that it would raise the tax burden on the middle class. What’s your response to that argument?
Jim Kahn: Well, the role of taxes under single payer is to replace the premiums and out of pocket costs that families currently have to pay, and since Medicare for all would save money, perhaps 10%, you actually have some wiggle room there to put in taxes that are progressive, focused on people who earn a lot more money or who are extremely wealthy, while protecting the middle class and certainly protecting the lower middle class. So in general, people who are currently earning low and moderate amounts of money would save, because they would pay less for the premiums, and their taxes, if they go up at all, would go up a lot less.
Another important consideration is that wages have been stagnant for decades. Why is that? That’s because employers have had to pay a lot more for health insurance, and that comes out of wages. Without that obligation, we would see wages start to increase, and that would be a very important reversal of this bad trend of static wages.
Greg Wilpert: We’re going to leave it there for now. I was speaking to Dr. Jim Kahn, professor emiritus of health policy epidemiology and global health at the University of California San Francisco. Thanks again, Jim, for having joined us today.
Jim Kahn: My pleasure.
Greg Wilpert: Thank you for joining the Real News Network.
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therealnews--2020-03-19--The Politics of a Public Health Failure, and the Way Forward

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
Marc Steiner : Welcome to The Real News .
I ’ m Marc Steiner , great to have you all with us .
What can the past tell us about the future ?
Now , we ’ re confronted with this COVID-19 and most epidemics in our history of pandemics , the root of the eruptions lies in human behavior and the destruction of wild habitats .
From neolithic times that unleashed measles and tuberculosis still with us today , to a world now where @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Ebola and this new strain of coronavirus .
Our industrialization is killing the permafrost and melting polar ice shelves are about to unleash viruses we never knew existed , some sciences say .
I hate to sound like gloom and doom but maybe there ’ s a positive end to this .
We know the past , we know what ’ s happened and how it will affect the future .
We think we do .
Can capitalism really responds to these disasters they create in the wake of their advancement , disasters @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ?
Well , we ’ re joined by Sara Robinson , who ’ s a cultural futurist living in Seattle .
She consults with a variety of progressive organizations , has written a wide range of publications for the New York Magazine to Salon , Huffington Post , and now she ’ s with us here on The Real News .
Sara , welcome .
Good to have you with us .
Sara Robinson : It ’ s good to be here .
Thanks , Marc .
Marc Steiner : So let me @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I ’ ve been doing around this because of the reading I ’ ve been doing and it ’ s what I alluded to in the opening , which has to do with viruses have been with us all the time .
And then a lot of them have been unleashed out of our own behavior , out of our own advancement as human beings , creating agriculture in neolithic times , but even more ominously to where we are today because of industrialization , destruction of habitat , the forest .
And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ animals like the pangolins , but really they are just innocent victims as we are .
Talk a bit about that , if you agree or disagree with that hypothesis .
Sara Robinson : I agree that viruses come out of our interactions with the environment and I ’ m sure that the prehistoric man , way before neolithic times , no doubt also encountered viruses , because anytime you interact with the wild world , things jump , things come around and effective beasties have always been part of the environment .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ sure that neolithic people , stone age people , no doubt learned that we don ’ t mess with those animals .
We don ’ t eat that .
We don ’ t eat that .
We don ’ t keep this with that because bad things happen .
Everybody gets sick and dies .
And it was probably on a level of superstition and religion .
Those things tend to get baked into cultures in that way .
And then , of course , in the neolithic times it intensified because we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ package , as Jared Diamond called it , of domesticated animals and domesticated grains and they all interacted with each other and we ’ re probably constantly producing new beasties .
And , as you say , we ’ re going out into new territories and unearthing things that got into the animals that got into us .
And so this has been an ongoing human battle .
These things have always been with us .
And one of the reasons this is hitting is so , so hard right now is that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a fine job of keeping this stuff at bay .
Our domestication of animals was kept away from where the people lived .
So , for instance , we ’ ve had these CAFOs , these concentrated animal feeding operations , where many of our pigs and cattle are raised for pork and beef that are not in the cities where the people are living .
So we haven ’ t had a lot of opportunity for these things to jump .
The opportunities that were left were the wet markets in places @ @ @ @ @ @ @ people eat bush meat .
AIDS started as bush meat in Africa coming out of a monkey .
So we ’ ve basically lost control of the protections now that we have the modern people have put in place to keep us from getting just this kind of thing .
Because in 100 years we ’ ve forgotten what sanitation has brought us and how important it is for everybody to kind of keep to those protocols .
China didn ’ t , and here we are .
Marc Steiner : So can @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you were finishing was , can we put this on China or any place else ?
Sara Robinson : No , absolutely not .
Swine Flu came out of CAFOs , pig , swine farms with tens of thousands of animals that have these poop lagoons down in Mexico .
So , no .
Wherever we ’ re kind of misusing or mishandling our meat supply this kind of stuff ’ s going to happen .
And , as you say , as yes the permafrost melts , we ’ re getting 40,000 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the peat .
So this is going to be how it is .
Also , we ’ re losing our antibiotics .
There are new approaches to antibiotics that are being developed that are very promising , but the end of antibiotics as we certainly knew them in the 20th century is upon us and researchers are very worried even as they ’ re coming up with new approaches .
I think we ’ ll get up on top of that one .
Some of the early research is very promising , but @ @ @ @ @ @ @ zone between the old kind of antibiotics and some new strategies .
So yeah , there ’ s a lot of things that we got so used to that we forgot and I ’ m convinced that [ inaudible 00:05:15 ] is one of the biggest drivers of history .
People just forgot why we had the rules we have and they get kind of free and loose with the protocols and then we end up in trouble all over again and have to relearn the lessons the hard way .
Marc Steiner @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is you ’ re joining us from Seattle , which some people see as ground zero for coronavirus .
Sara Robinson : It absolutely is .
I ’ ve been locked up for two and a half weeks .
Marc Steiner : So what does that mean ?
Sara Robinson : That means on March 1st my husband and I came inside this house and shut the door and we ’ ve been getting things by delivery .
Instacart deliveries are getting farther and farther out .
They ’ re now a week @ @ @ @ @ @ @ deliver anything anymore except necessities .
So yeah , we ’ ve been kind of dealing with this as it ’ s come up .
We were a good week ahead of California , probably 10 days ahead in New York .
So we ’ ve been at this for a while .
And it ’ s so funny because I remember 10 days ago getting into arguments with my friends from New York about how serious this was and finally just saying , “ Look , you ’ re not in Seattle @ @ @ @ @ @ @ weeks because I ’ m living in the future that is coming to you .
You just don ’ t know it.
” Marc Steiner : The futurist living in the future telling us what ’ s about to happen .
Sara Robinson : That ’ s right .
I ’ m coming to you from a few weeks in the future .
Yep .
Mark Steiner : I love it .
That ’ s great .
What was that tell us ?
What can you tell us from the future ?
Sara @ @ @ @ @ @ @ set to hit Italian levels of overload starting Thursday .
So we are less than 48 hours from having our hospitals at peak capacity , and beyond that , we don ’ t know .
So , that ’ s a little alarming .
Mark Steiner : It is alarming .
We don ’ t know where this could take us nor how long it could last .
I mean , there are a lot of theories about the warm weather could dissipate it , but we really don ’ t know .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ know .
And , in fact , it ’ s spreading in Florida at the same rate it ’ s spreading here in the other corner of the country .
So , that theory is kind of shaky .
We ’ re not going to count on that .
One of the things though that I ’ m really pleased about is that Seattle , if it had to come ashore anywhere in the country , this was the place for it to land .
A huge slice of the nation ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ located here in Seattle .
And there ’ s some big institutions , the Gates Foundation , the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center .
Kaiser has a big research center at the University of Washington , the big , big departments that are thousands and thousands of people who are epidemiologists , who are genetic analysts , who are makers of vaccines .
And so when this thing landed , we had our first case here on January 21st .
And everything ramped up right then and we have very forward thinking leadership @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and Dow Constantine .
A lot of our civic leaders are forward-thinking and we ’ re a city of engineers .
We ’ ve been the home of Boeing for over 100 years and we ’ re technologists at heart .
So our first response to everything is , how can you science the shit out of this ?
Sara Robinson : And that ’ s kind of what we did .
And so the very first vaccine in the world was put into clinical trials here a week ago Friday .
That @ @ @ @ @ @ @ here .
So in that sense , we got ahead of it and we ’ re staying ahead of it and that pleases me as a futurist .
It feels like I landed in the right place and I ’ m hoping that we will set models .
We ’ re having to build the plane as we fly it but in the process I think we ’ re setting up models that the CDC has been following a few days behind the policies here very consistently .
So look to Seattle if @ @ @ @ @ @ @ going to be like in 10 days , two weeks , depending on where you are .
Marc Steiner : So let me take another futuristic question here , and I ’ m thinking about to kind of bring together the idea is that what we ’ ve done in the past to unleash these viruses as cultures , as societies , but especially modern industrial capitalism and what it ’ s done to unleash these viruses , so you can look at that and it ’ s a very kind of negative @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we could be facing in the future .
But then there ’ s also the other side of that because there ’ s nothing that is ever simple and linear , I mean , I think existence is dialectic , where nothing ’ s that ’ s simple , and so the other part of that path is the idea that we can do things differently , that there are people who are progressing and moving ahead .
So talk about either that conflict or that interaction and how you see that affecting @ @ @ @ @ @ @ re about to face .
Sara Robinson : Modernity has been a double edged sword .
As you say , it ’ s done violence to the environment that we ’ ve had to pay for .
On the other hand , it ’ s also the technology has done a wonderful job at protecting us from the effects of that .
Societies get more and more complex over time and there comes a point where they get so complex that they collapse it on themselves .
And this may be a sign @ @ @ @ @ @ @ there are pieces of our society that are no longer resilient enough .
And if progressive policies had been in place , we would have been , because that ’ s what progressivism does , is it makes sure that everybody has access to healthcare , has enough money , has a healthy food supply , that the environment is not being overstressed .
I mean , these are the policies that we have always advocated for and since the Reagan era the other side has been eroding .
And now we find @ @ @ @ @ @ @ medical ones , not economic ones , not social ones .
And the bottom ’ s falling out and we have reached a level of complexity that can ’ t be sustained because the underpinnings are so weak .
And so now I think we have a real opportunity , a political opportunity , to start arguing for rebuilding the social safety nets , rebuilding the sense of , more than that , the sense of collectivism that we are all in this together , that there is a common good that we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ public health infrastructure , training enough doctors , building up our hospitals .
These are all of investments in the common good that have been eroded away by 40 years of Conservative governance .
And it ’ s time to start putting the money back into that .
I don ’ t think there ’ s a parent in America right now who doesn ’ t think that their kid ’ s teacher deserves a triple raise in pay .
Ask any of them today how they feel about their teachers .
The @ @ @ @ @ @ @ out there and make hay , because this is a really good moment for them .
But I think we ’ re going to see a shift in who we consider heroes .
It ’ s not going to be heroes of capitalism anymore .
Jack Welsh and those guys , Lee Iacocca .
In the 80s and 90s , these were the lions .
Donald Trump , right ?
And now I think we ’ re going to have a big switch in who the heroes are and it is going to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Look for the helpers.
” And now it ’ s the doctors , the nurses , the healthcare providers who are putting their lives on the line , the first responders , the teachers , the people who devote their lives to the common good are going to retake their rightful places as heroes in our society .
And I think that ’ s one of the good outcomes of this moment and one that we as progressives can kind of shove along .
Marc Steiner : And do you think that a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we might be facing because of what has been unleashed ?
Sara Robinson : Yeah , far more resilient .
We all know if any one of the Democrats , the candidates who were up on that stage over the last year , had been in charge that this would be unfolding differently and better .
Whether or not you love him or hate him , pick one , anyone , Andrew Yang , any of them , stick them up there , they would have done better than Trump is doing .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ Conservative governance that pushed this off for so long and was worried more about the markets than about people .
I think we have made that trade off a lot , that the markets were more important than people ’ s lives .
We ’ ve been making those trade offs for 40 years because conservatives insisted .
And I think one of the fundamental shifts we ’ re going through is that that will no longer be acceptable , that morally we have hit the full bankrupt moment on that idea .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ to seeing what becomes politically possible because people have lost their patients because as many as two million Americans may lose their lives because of the way this has been mismanaged .
Marc Steiner : Well , your message of social liberal hope is important for us to hear , I think .
Marc Steiner : And I believe that and I want to thank you and thank my colleague and friend Charles Lenchner here at The Real News for suggesting that we spend some time talking with you .
And he was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and it was really a pleasure to hear your thoughts .
We need to really double down on these ideas and talk some more .
And I want to thank you for your work and thank you for joining us today .
Marc Steiner : My pleasure .
And I ’ m Marc Steiner here for The Real News Network and we ’ re going to stay on top of the coronavirus and all of these things .
There is a way out .
We ’ re going to be part of helping @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
So , as I said , I ’ m Marc Steiner here for The Real News Network .
Thank you all for joining us .
Take care .

TRNN’s Marc Steiner talks to a social futurist about how progressive governing creates a future for us all in the wake of the coronavirus pandemic.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Marc Steiner: Welcome to The Real News. I’m Marc Steiner, great to have you all with us. What can the past tell us about the future? Now, we’re confronted with this COVID-19 and most epidemics in our history of pandemics, the root of the eruptions lies in human behavior and the destruction of wild habitats. From neolithic times that unleashed measles and tuberculosis still with us today, to a world now where the destruction of the forest brought us Ebola and this new strain of coronavirus. Our industrialization is killing the permafrost and melting polar ice shelves are about to unleash viruses we never knew existed, some sciences say. I hate to sound like gloom and doom but maybe there’s a positive end to this. We know the past, we know what’s happened and how it will affect the future. We think we do.
Can capitalism really responds to these disasters they create in the wake of their advancement, disasters they didn’t even see coming? Well, we’re joined by Sara Robinson, who’s a cultural futurist living in Seattle. She consults with a variety of progressive organizations, has written a wide range of publications for the New York Magazine to Salon, Huffington Post, and now she’s with us here on The Real News. Sara, welcome. Good to have you with us.
Sara Robinson: It’s good to be here. Thanks, Marc.
Marc Steiner: So let me just begin with some of the thinking I’ve been doing around this because of the reading I’ve been doing and it’s what I alluded to in the opening, which has to do with viruses have been with us all the time. And then a lot of them have been unleashed out of our own behavior, out of our own advancement as human beings, creating agriculture in neolithic times, but even more ominously to where we are today because of industrialization, destruction of habitat, the forest. And they can blame this thing on little animals like the pangolins, but really they are just innocent victims as we are. Talk a bit about that, if you agree or disagree with that hypothesis.
Sara Robinson: I agree that viruses come out of our interactions with the environment and I’m sure that the prehistoric man, way before neolithic times, no doubt also encountered viruses, because anytime you interact with the wild world, things jump, things come around and effective beasties have always been part of the environment. Animals carry them and I’m sure that neolithic people, stone age people, no doubt learned that we don’t mess with those animals. We don’t eat that. We don’t eat that. We don’t keep this with that because bad things happen. Everybody gets sick and dies. And it was probably on a level of superstition and religion. Those things tend to get baked into cultures in that way. And then, of course, in the neolithic times it intensified because we were growing things. We had this package, as Jared Diamond called it, of domesticated animals and domesticated grains and they all interacted with each other and we’re probably constantly producing new beasties.
And, as you say, we’re going out into new territories and unearthing things that got into the animals that got into us. And so this has been an ongoing human battle. These things have always been with us. And one of the reasons this is hitting is so, so hard right now is that in the 20th century we did such a fine job of keeping this stuff at bay. Our domestication of animals was kept away from where the people lived. So, for instance, we’ve had these CAFOs, these concentrated animal feeding operations, where many of our pigs and cattle are raised for pork and beef that are not in the cities where the people are living. So we haven’t had a lot of opportunity for these things to jump. The opportunities that were left were the wet markets in places like China and Africa, places where people eat bush meat. AIDS started as bush meat in Africa coming out of a monkey.
So we’ve basically lost control of the protections now that we have the modern people have put in place to keep us from getting just this kind of thing. Because in 100 years we’ve forgotten what sanitation has brought us and how important it is for everybody to kind of keep to those protocols. China didn’t, and here we are.
Marc Steiner: So can I say one that struck me as you were finishing was, can we put this on China or any place else?
Sara Robinson: No, absolutely not. Swine Flu came out of CAFOs, pig, swine farms with tens of thousands of animals that have these poop lagoons down in Mexico. So, no. Wherever we’re kind of misusing or mishandling our meat supply this kind of stuff’s going to happen. And, as you say, as yes the permafrost melts, we’re getting 40,000 year old viruses coming back out of the peat. So this is going to be how it is. Also, we’re losing our antibiotics. There are new approaches to antibiotics that are being developed that are very promising, but the end of antibiotics as we certainly knew them in the 20th century is upon us and researchers are very worried even as they’re coming up with new approaches. I think we’ll get up on top of that one. Some of the early research is very promising, but we are in kind of a transition zone between the old kind of antibiotics and some new strategies.
So yeah, there’s a lot of things that we got so used to that we forgot and I’m convinced that [inaudible 00:05:15] is one of the biggest drivers of history. People just forgot why we had the rules we have and they get kind of free and loose with the protocols and then we end up in trouble all over again and have to relearn the lessons the hard way.
Marc Steiner: Two quick thoughts here. One is you’re joining us from Seattle, which some people see as ground zero for coronavirus.
Sara Robinson: It absolutely is. I’ve been locked up for two and a half weeks.
Marc Steiner: So what does that mean?
Sara Robinson: That means on March 1st my husband and I came inside this house and shut the door and we’ve been getting things by delivery. Instacart deliveries are getting farther and farther out. They’re now a week out. Amazon Fresh doesn’t deliver anything anymore except necessities. So yeah, we’ve been kind of dealing with this as it’s come up. We were a good week ahead of California, probably 10 days ahead in New York. So we’ve been at this for a while. And it’s so funny because I remember 10 days ago getting into arguments with my friends from New York about how serious this was and finally just saying, “Look, you’re not in Seattle. Get back to me in two weeks because I’m living in the future that is coming to you. You just don’t know it.”
Marc Steiner: The futurist living in the future telling us what’s about to happen.
Sara Robinson: That’s right. I’m coming to you from a few weeks in the future. Yep.
Mark Steiner: I love it. That’s great. What was that tell us? What can you tell us from the future?
Sara Robinson: Well, our hospitals are set to hit Italian levels of overload starting Thursday. So we are less than 48 hours from having our hospitals at peak capacity, and beyond that, we don’t know. So, that’s a little alarming.
Mark Steiner: It is alarming. We don’t know where this could take us nor how long it could last. I mean, there are a lot of theories about the warm weather could dissipate it, but we really don’t know.
Sara Robinson: We don’t know. And, in fact, it’s spreading in Florida at the same rate it’s spreading here in the other corner of the country. So, that theory is kind of shaky. We’re not going to count on that. One of the things though that I’m really pleased about is that Seattle, if it had to come ashore anywhere in the country, this was the place for it to land. A huge slice of the nation’s public health and global health infrastructure is located here in Seattle. And there’s some big institutions, the Gates Foundation, the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center. Kaiser has a big research center at the University of Washington, the big, big departments that are thousands and thousands of people who are epidemiologists, who are genetic analysts, who are makers of vaccines. And so when this thing landed, we had our first case here on January 21st. And everything ramped up right then and we have very forward thinking leadership in Jay Inslee and in Jenny Durkin and Dow Constantine.
A lot of our civic leaders are forward-thinking and we’re a city of engineers. We’ve been the home of Boeing for over 100 years and we’re technologists at heart. So our first response to everything is, how can you science the shit out of this?
Marc Steiner: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Sara Robinson: And that’s kind of what we did. And so the very first vaccine in the world was put into clinical trials here a week ago Friday. That’s how we’re responding here. So in that sense, we got ahead of it and we’re staying ahead of it and that pleases me as a futurist. It feels like I landed in the right place and I’m hoping that we will set models. We’re having to build the plane as we fly it but in the process I think we’re setting up models that the CDC has been following a few days behind the policies here very consistently. So look to Seattle if you want to see what things are going to be like in 10 days, two weeks, depending on where you are.
Marc Steiner: So let me take another futuristic question here, and I’m thinking about to kind of bring together the idea is that what we’ve done in the past to unleash these viruses as cultures, as societies, but especially modern industrial capitalism and what it’s done to unleash these viruses, so you can look at that and it’s a very kind of negative, almost frightening, picture of what we could be facing in the future. But then there’s also the other side of that because there’s nothing that is ever simple and linear, I mean, I think existence is dialectic, where nothing’s that’s simple, and so the other part of that path is the idea that we can do things differently, that there are people who are progressing and moving ahead. So talk about either that conflict or that interaction and how you see that affecting how we respond to what we’re about to face.
Sara Robinson: Modernity has been a double edged sword. As you say, it’s done violence to the environment that we’ve had to pay for. On the other hand, it’s also the technology has done a wonderful job at protecting us from the effects of that. Societies get more and more complex over time and there comes a point where they get so complex that they collapse it on themselves. And this may be a sign that that’s happening, that there are pieces of our society that are no longer resilient enough. And if progressive policies had been in place, we would have been, because that’s what progressivism does, is it makes sure that everybody has access to healthcare, has enough money, has a healthy food supply, that the environment is not being overstressed. I mean, these are the policies that we have always advocated for and since the Reagan era the other side has been eroding. And now we find ourselves with no safety nets, not medical ones, not economic ones, not social ones.
And the bottom’s falling out and we have reached a level of complexity that can’t be sustained because the underpinnings are so weak. And so now I think we have a real opportunity, a political opportunity, to start arguing for rebuilding the social safety nets, rebuilding the sense of, more than that, the sense of collectivism that we are all in this together, that there is a common good that we do well to invest in, the public health infrastructure, training enough doctors, building up our hospitals. These are all of investments in the common good that have been eroded away by 40 years of Conservative governance. And it’s time to start putting the money back into that. I don’t think there’s a parent in America right now who doesn’t think that their kid’s teacher deserves a triple raise in pay. Ask any of them today how they feel about their teachers. The teachers’ unions have got to get out there and make hay, because this is a really good moment for them.
But I think we’re going to see a shift in who we consider heroes. It’s not going to be heroes of capitalism anymore. Jack Welsh and those guys, Lee Iacocca. In the 80s and 90s, these were the lions. Donald Trump, right? And now I think we’re going to have a big switch in who the heroes are and it is going to be as Mr. Rogers says, “Look for the helpers.” And now it’s the doctors, the nurses, the healthcare providers who are putting their lives on the line, the first responders, the teachers, the people who devote their lives to the common good are going to retake their rightful places as heroes in our society. And I think that’s one of the good outcomes of this moment and one that we as progressives can kind of shove along.
Marc Steiner: And do you think that a progressive world can actually respond to what we might be facing because of what has been unleashed?
Sara Robinson: Yeah, far more resilient. We all know if any one of the Democrats, the candidates who were up on that stage over the last year, had been in charge that this would be unfolding differently and better. Whether or not you love him or hate him, pick one, anyone, Andrew Yang, any of them, stick them up there, they would have done better than Trump is doing. And so I think the bankruptcy of Conservative governance that pushed this off for so long and was worried more about the markets than about people. I think we have made that trade off a lot, that the markets were more important than people’s lives. We’ve been making those trade offs for 40 years because conservatives insisted. And I think one of the fundamental shifts we’re going through is that that will no longer be acceptable, that morally we have hit the full bankrupt moment on that idea. And I’m really looking forward to seeing what becomes politically possible because people have lost their patients because as many as two million Americans may lose their lives because of the way this has been mismanaged.
Marc Steiner: Well, your message of social liberal hope is important for us to hear, I think.
Sara Robinson: I hope you.
Marc Steiner: And I believe that and I want to thank you and thank my colleague and friend Charles Lenchner here at The Real News for suggesting that we spend some time talking with you. And he was right. Your analysis is very clear and it was really a pleasure to hear your thoughts. We need to really double down on these ideas and talk some more. And I want to thank you for your work and thank you for joining us today.
Sara Robinson: You’re welcome. It’s my pleasure.
Marc Steiner: My pleasure. And I’m Marc Steiner here for The Real News Network and we’re going to stay on top of the coronavirus and all of these things. There is a way out. We’re going to be part of helping figure out what that way out is. So, as I said, I’m Marc Steiner here for The Real News Network. Thank you all for joining us. Take care.
Production: Genevieve Montinar, Marc Steiner, Cameron Granadino
Post-Production: Cameron Granadino
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therealnews--2020-03-19--Growing Calls to End ICE Raids During the Coronavirus Pandemic

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Jaisal is currently the Democracy Initiative Manager at the Solutions Journalism Network and is a former TRNN host, producer, and reporter. He mainly grew up in the Baltimore area and studied modern history at the University of Maryland, College Park. Before joining TRNN, he contributed print, radio, and TV reports to Free Speech Radio News, Democracy Now! and The Indypendent. Jaisal's mother has taught in the Baltimore City Public School system for the past 25 years. Follow him on Twitter @jaisalnoor.


therealnews--2020-03-20--US Sanctions Undermine Coronavirus Response In Iran and Venezuela

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
While the world is reeling from the coronavirus pandemic , the Trump administration has decided to intensify its sanctions against countries such as Iran and Venezuela , dealing a serious blow to those countries with regard to their ability to cope with the disease .
When it comes to the number of coronavirus cases , Iran is in third place in the world after China and Italy , with 18,400 reported cases as of this Thursday .
Over a thousand new cases are being reported @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the virus is still far from having reached its peak in that country .
In contrast , Venezuela has only 36 reported cases so far , one of the fewest in the world , but the government has taken immediate measures to contain the outbreak .
On Monday , it declared a national quarantine , closing down practically all commercial activity and movement .
US sanctions on Iran and on Venezuela are making it extremely difficult for those countries to import badly needed medicines and medical equipment .
And the Trump administration has @ @ @ @ @ @ @ tougher .
Joining me now to discuss the impact of the sanctions on Iran and Venezuela are Kathy Kelly and Leonardo Flores .
Kathy is a peace activist , pacifist and author , and currently co-coordinator of the group Voices for Creative Nonviolence .
Leonardo is originally from Venezuela , and is a campaign coordinator with the peace group , CODEPINK .
Thanks , Leo and Kathy , for joining us today .
Greg Wilpert : So let ’ s start with you , Kathy .
You recently wrote an article calling for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Talk about what effect the sanctions are having on Iran ’ s ability to manage the coronavirus pandemic , and what the larger effects are , actually , that you ’ ve also mentioned in your article .
Kathy Kelly : The Iranian foreign minister , Javad Zarif , had written a letter to the United Nations Secretary General , António Guterres , and he said , “ This is a crime against humanity.
” He said that the United States ’ imposition of the economic sanctions is now making it extremely @ @ @ @ @ @ @ spread of the coronavirus .
And it ’ s really… Particularly on this day that is , I guess , the commemoration of the beginning of the United States ’ shock and awe bombing of Iraq , we see this terrible menacing history wherein the United States basically says to other countries , “ If you don ’ t subordinate yourselves to fulfill our national interests , we ’ ll eliminate you .
And if you don ’ t believe it , look what we did to Iraq.
” And now see what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Independent just reported that one person dies every 10 minutes from the coronavirus in Iran .
Greg Wilpert : And turning to you , Leo , you recently wrote about how the US sanctions on Venezuela are affecting its ability to deal with the coronavirus .
Give us an idea as to what the sanctions have meant concretely for Venezuela ’ s management of the pandemic .
Leonardo Flores : Well , in general terms , the sanctions have decimated Venezuela ’ s economy over the last five years , causing about $ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that there ’ s been a 90 % drop in foreign exchange earnings , and that ’ s led to the deaths of 100,000 Venezuelans already .
That ’ s according to Alfred de Zayas , the former UN special rapporteur .
And then concretely in the case of coronavirus , well , I think we ’ ve all seen the graphs by now showing the two curves .
One showing a huge spike if we don ’ t do social distancing .
The other one more moderate .
And then there ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ capacity .
Well , if we think of that graph , what the US has been doing in Venezuela and Iran has been pushing that line of hospital capacity way down because of the impact that sanctions have had on health sectors .
And so , President Maduro mentioned the other night in a televised address that the coronavirus test kits cost Venezuela three times as much as they do for non-sanctioned countries .
And we see similar things happening in the private sector , as well .
So there ’ s a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and Venezuela , and in Venezuela they ’ re selling a pack of face masks for about $ 5 .
And across the border , a similar pack of face masks is going for about 60 cents .
And that ’ s entirely due to the sanctions .
Greg Wilpert : Leo , as I mentioned earlier , Venezuela has so far had relatively few cases of the coronavirus .
The government is taking very strong measures to deal with it .
What exactly are those measures , and why are they so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ so far ?
Leonardo Flores : Well , it ’ s precisely because there are few cases right now , and that the government has an opportunity to stem the tide .
So the first two cases were confirmed on Friday the 13th , a little less than a week ago .
By Monday , there were 33 cases , and that ’ s when the national quarantine was set in order .
According to the government , 90 % of Venezuelans are heeding this order .
So , a lot of people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ contrast to what we see here in the United States .
And because I think the people and the government understand that unless these drastic measures are taken , the hospital systems are going to be overwhelmed .
And so , that ’ s really the only way for the Venezuelan government at this time to fight the disease , is by preventing its spread .
Greg Wilpert : Kathy , I want to turn to you again .
The US sanctions on Iran are supposed to include exemptions for humanitarian aid , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Now , has that had an effect , and if not , why not ?
Kathy Kelly : The United States has been at war against Iran since the tightening of the sanctions back in 2018 .
70 % of Iran ’ s governmental revenues came from the sale of oil .
The United States bullied other countries like India , South Korea , Europe , not to buy Iran ’ s oil .
So then when the country doesn ’ t have the income that ’ s necessary to maintain all of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it becomes very , very difficult for banking to be workable , for the different kinds of insurances for importation of medicines , the transportation .
And so , no , the United States is not making a humanitarian avenue for medical supplies and equipment and medicines to get into the country .
And so , this has led , similar to what every other country has seen , to very , very alarming spikes .
But right now , 1,135 people died at the last count that I read , and that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Well , keep in mind also that Afghanistan is a country with millions of migrants who come over from Afghanistan .
And as people from Afghanistan are trying to go back to their country , this is going to spread the rise of the virus in Afghanistan , as well , because there ’ s not anything like adequate testing and the borders are very porous .
So , part of the foolhardiness of this bullying policy is that the United States has troops stationed in Afghanistan .
If there ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Afghanistan , then actually then it comes back over to the United States , doesn ’ t it ?
Greg Wilpert : Now , has there been an international response yet to the calls for an end to sanctions on Iran and on Venezuela ?
But let ’ s start with Iran , Kathy .
Kathy Kelly : Well , I think there are European countries who could do much more to say they ’ re not going to abide by the sanctions that the United States has put in place .
You @ @ @ @ @ @ @ foreign minister , Javad Zarif , is saying , “ Look , we need more help , we need more cover.
” The appeal to the International Monetary Fund for the $ 5 billion both on the part of Venezuela and Iran isn ’ t the kind of measure that a country wants to take .
That will put them in debt , and structural adjustment programs , and many , many , many future problems .
But that ’ s again one way that other countries in the world could weigh in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not block this , ” even if the United States starts to say , “ No , no , no , you can ’ t put through that loan.
” Greg Wilpert : Well , actually , that was going to be my next question also for on Venezuela is first of all , is there an international response , or what kind of response is there with regard to halting the sanctions against Venezuela ?
But Venezuela has also asked for a $ 5 billion loan from the International Monetary Fund to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Leo , talk about both the response and what might be , or has happened , with regard to the request for an IMF loan .
Leonardo Flores : So , internationally , the countries taking the lead in denouncing these sanctions have been China and Cuba .
And coincidentally they happen to be the two countries taking the lead in showing solidarity to particularly the global South in terms of helping with the coronavirus .
Other than that , there ’ s been very little movement , particularly in South America where @ @ @ @ @ @ @ neighbors would want the sanctions lifted so Venezuela could deal with this public health crisis , rather than have migration affect the spread of the disease in say , for example , Brazil or Colombia .
Regarding the IMF , the IMF set aside a huge amount of money to deal with this pandemic .
And Venezuela , like Iran , had requested $ 5 billion for improvements to its health sector .
In the case of Iran , my understanding is that the IMF has yet to respond , but for Venezuela @ @ @ @ @ @ @ there was no clarity as to who the government of Venezuela is represented by .
Despite the fact that President Maduro ’ s representative to the IMF is still seated at the IMF .
And this is due entirely to the fact that basically the IMF responds to the US Treasury Department , and the US government is backing , of course , Juan Guaidó , the man who proclaimed himself president of Venezuela .
And so , now we ’ re seeing how this coup attempt in Venezuela is having a direct @ @ @ @ @ @ @ handle the coronavirus epidemic .
Greg Wilpert : Okay .
I think we ’ re going to wrap it up there .
I don ’ t know .
Kathy , do you have anything else to add to this ?
Kathy Kelly : [ inaudible 00:10:31 ] It ’ s a new year time in Iran , a time when people traditionally come together .
And of course , for the sake of people , it must be encouraged I suppose that people not come together .
But I hope that people will @ @ @ @ @ @ @ people in other parts in the world who suffer badly because of the distorted priorities of a permanent warfare state in the United States .
Greg Wilpert : Right .
Okay .
We ’ re going to leave it there for now .
I was speaking to Leonardo Flores , CODEPINK organizer , and Kathy Kelly with Voices for Creative Nonviolence .
Thanks again , Leo and Kathy , for having joined us today .
Greg Wilpert : And thank you for joining the Real News Network .

Economic sanctions were already a serious blow to Iran and Venezuela’s hospital capacity. The Trump administration’s determination to increase them could make it even harder for the two countries to contain the virus.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Greg Wilpert: It’s the Real News Network. I’m Greg Wilpert in Arlington, Virginia.
While the world is reeling from the coronavirus pandemic, the Trump administration has decided to intensify its sanctions against countries such as Iran and Venezuela, dealing a serious blow to those countries with regard to their ability to cope with the disease.
When it comes to the number of coronavirus cases, Iran is in third place in the world after China and Italy, with 18,400 reported cases as of this Thursday. Over a thousand new cases are being reported every day in Iran, and so the virus is still far from having reached its peak in that country.
In contrast, Venezuela has only 36 reported cases so far, one of the fewest in the world, but the government has taken immediate measures to contain the outbreak. On Monday, it declared a national quarantine, closing down practically all commercial activity and movement. US sanctions on Iran and on Venezuela are making it extremely difficult for those countries to import badly needed medicines and medical equipment. And the Trump administration has announced that its sanctions will only get tougher.
Joining me now to discuss the impact of the sanctions on Iran and Venezuela are Kathy Kelly and Leonardo Flores. Kathy is a peace activist, pacifist and author, and currently co-coordinator of the group Voices for Creative Nonviolence. Leonardo is originally from Venezuela, and is a campaign coordinator with the peace group, CODEPINK.
Thanks, Leo and Kathy, for joining us today.
Leonardo Flores: Thank you, Greg.
Kathy Kelly: Thank you.
Greg Wilpert: So let’s start with you, Kathy. You recently wrote an article calling for an end to US sanctions on Iran. Talk about what effect the sanctions are having on Iran’s ability to manage the coronavirus pandemic, and what the larger effects are, actually, that you’ve also mentioned in your article.
Kathy Kelly: The Iranian foreign minister, Javad Zarif, had written a letter to the United Nations Secretary General, António Guterres, and he said, “This is a crime against humanity.” He said that the United States’ imposition of the economic sanctions is now making it extremely difficult for Iranians to cope with the spread of the coronavirus.
And it’s really… Particularly on this day that is, I guess, the commemoration of the beginning of the United States’ shock and awe bombing of Iraq, we see this terrible menacing history wherein the United States basically says to other countries, “If you don’t subordinate yourselves to fulfill our national interests, we’ll eliminate you. And if you don’t believe it, look what we did to Iraq.”
And now see what’s happening to Iran. The Independent just reported that one person dies every 10 minutes from the coronavirus in Iran.
Greg Wilpert: And turning to you, Leo, you recently wrote about how the US sanctions on Venezuela are affecting its ability to deal with the coronavirus. Give us an idea as to what the sanctions have meant concretely for Venezuela’s management of the pandemic.
Leonardo Flores: Well, in general terms, the sanctions have decimated Venezuela’s economy over the last five years, causing about $130 billion worth of damages. Meaning that there’s been a 90% drop in foreign exchange earnings, and that’s led to the deaths of 100,000 Venezuelans already. That’s according to Alfred de Zayas, the former UN special rapporteur.
And then concretely in the case of coronavirus, well, I think we’ve all seen the graphs by now showing the two curves. One showing a huge spike if we don’t do social distancing. The other one more moderate. And then there’s always the horizontal line showing hospital capacity. Well, if we think of that graph, what the US has been doing in Venezuela and Iran has been pushing that line of hospital capacity way down because of the impact that sanctions have had on health sectors.
And so, President Maduro mentioned the other night in a televised address that the coronavirus test kits cost Venezuela three times as much as they do for non-sanctioned countries. And we see similar things happening in the private sector, as well. So there’s a pharmacy chain that operates in both Columbia and Venezuela, and in Venezuela they’re selling a pack of face masks for about $5. And across the border, a similar pack of face masks is going for about 60 cents. And that’s entirely due to the sanctions.
Greg Wilpert: Leo, as I mentioned earlier, Venezuela has so far had relatively few cases of the coronavirus. The government is taking very strong measures to deal with it. What exactly are those measures, and why are they so strong considering how few cases there are so far?
Leonardo Flores: Well, it’s precisely because there are few cases right now, and that the government has an opportunity to stem the tide. So the first two cases were confirmed on Friday the 13th, a little less than a week ago. By Monday, there were 33 cases, and that’s when the national quarantine was set in order.
According to the government, 90% of Venezuelans are heeding this order. So, a lot of people are taking it very seriously, in contrast to what we see here in the United States. And because I think the people and the government understand that unless these drastic measures are taken, the hospital systems are going to be overwhelmed. And so, that’s really the only way for the Venezuelan government at this time to fight the disease, is by preventing its spread.
Greg Wilpert: Kathy, I want to turn to you again. The US sanctions on Iran are supposed to include exemptions for humanitarian aid, which in theory would include medicines. Now, has that had an effect, and if not, why not?
Kathy Kelly: The United States has been at war against Iran since the tightening of the sanctions back in 2018. 70% of Iran’s governmental revenues came from the sale of oil. The United States bullied other countries like India, South Korea, Europe, not to buy Iran’s oil. So then when the country doesn’t have the income that’s necessary to maintain all of the various sectors of society, then it becomes very, very difficult for banking to be workable, for the different kinds of insurances for importation of medicines, the transportation.
And so, no, the United States is not making a humanitarian avenue for medical supplies and equipment and medicines to get into the country. And so, this has led, similar to what every other country has seen, to very, very alarming spikes. But right now, 1,135 people died at the last count that I read, and that 17,361 people are afflicted with the virus.
Well, keep in mind also that Afghanistan is a country with millions of migrants who come over from Afghanistan. And as people from Afghanistan are trying to go back to their country, this is going to spread the rise of the virus in Afghanistan, as well, because there’s not anything like adequate testing and the borders are very porous.
So, part of the foolhardiness of this bullying policy is that the United States has troops stationed in Afghanistan. If there’s a huge spike in the coronavirus in Afghanistan, then actually then it comes back over to the United States, doesn’t it?
Greg Wilpert: Now, has there been an international response yet to the calls for an end to sanctions on Iran and on Venezuela?But let’s start with Iran, Kathy.
Kathy Kelly: Well, I think there are European countries who could do much more to say they’re not going to abide by the sanctions that the United States has put in place. You hear discussions, but always the Iranian foreign minister, Javad Zarif, is saying, “Look, we need more help, we need more cover.”
The appeal to the International Monetary Fund for the $5 billion both on the part of Venezuela and Iran isn’t the kind of measure that a country wants to take. That will put them in debt, and structural adjustment programs, and many, many, many future problems. But that’s again one way that other countries in the world could weigh in. They could say, “Do not block this,” even if the United States starts to say, “No, no, no, you can’t put through that loan.”
Greg Wilpert: Well, actually, that was going to be my next question also for on Venezuela is first of all, is there an international response, or what kind of response is there with regard to halting the sanctions against Venezuela? But Venezuela has also asked for a $5 billion loan from the International Monetary Fund to cope with the coronavirus.
So, Leo, talk about both the response and what might be, or has happened, with regard to the request for an IMF loan.
Leonardo Flores: So, internationally, the countries taking the lead in denouncing these sanctions have been China and Cuba. And coincidentally they happen to be the two countries taking the lead in showing solidarity to particularly the global South in terms of helping with the coronavirus.
Other than that, there’s been very little movement, particularly in South America where you would think that Venezuela’s neighbors would want the sanctions lifted so Venezuela could deal with this public health crisis, rather than have migration affect the spread of the disease in say, for example, Brazil or Colombia.
Regarding the IMF, the IMF set aside a huge amount of money to deal with this pandemic. And Venezuela, like Iran, had requested $5 billion for improvements to its health sector. In the case of Iran, my understanding is that the IMF has yet to respond, but for Venezuela they responded almost immediately, saying that there was no clarity as to who the government of Venezuela is represented by. Despite the fact that President Maduro’s representative to the IMF is still seated at the IMF.
And this is due entirely to the fact that basically the IMF responds to the US Treasury Department, and the US government is backing, of course, Juan Guaidó, the man who proclaimed himself president of Venezuela. And so, now we’re seeing how this coup attempt in Venezuela is having a direct impact on Venezuela’s ability to handle the coronavirus epidemic.
Greg Wilpert: Okay. I think we’re going to wrap it up there. I don’t know. Kathy, do you have anything else to add to this?
Kathy Kelly: [inaudible 00:10:31] It’s a new year time in Iran, a time when people traditionally come together. And of course, for the sake of people, it must be encouraged I suppose that people not come together. But I hope that people will spare a thought for all of the people in other parts in the world who suffer badly because of the distorted priorities of a permanent warfare state in the United States.
Greg Wilpert: Right. Okay. We’re going to leave it there for now. I was speaking to Leonardo Flores, CODEPINK organizer, and Kathy Kelly with Voices for Creative Nonviolence. Thanks again, Leo and Kathy, for having joined us today.
Kathy Kelly: Thank you.
Leonardo Flores: Thank you, Greg.
Greg Wilpert: And thank you for joining the Real News Network.
Production: Genevieve Montinar, Bababtunde Ogunfolaju, Gregory Wilpert, Andrew Corkery
Studio: Bababtunde Ogunfolaju
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therealnews--2020-03-20--In A Pandemic, The US Addiction To Incarceration Comes Back To Haunt Us

For decades , police could surveil and drug test thousands of Americans every day .
Why ca n't those same @ @ @ @ @ testing ?
Police Accountability Report continues its analysis of overpolicing and public health .

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Stephen Janis is an award winning investigative reporter turned documentary filmmaker. His first feature film, The Friendliest Town was distributed by Gravitas Ventures and won an award of distinction from The Impact Doc Film Festival, and a humanitarian award from The Indie Film Fest. He is the co-host and creator of The Police Accountability Report on The Real News Network, which has received more than 10,000,000 views on YouTube. His work as a reporter has been featured on a variety of national shows including the Netflix reboot of Unsolved Mysteries, Dead of Night on Investigation Discovery Channel, Relentless on NBC, and Sins of the City on TV One.
He has co-authored several books on policing, corruption, and the root causes of violence including Why Do We Kill: The Pathology of Murder in Baltimore and You Can’t Stop Murder: Truths about Policing in Baltimore and Beyond. He is also the co-host of the true crime podcast Land of the Unsolved. Prior to joining The Real News, Janis won three Capital Emmys for investigative series working as an investigative producer for WBFF. Follow him on Twitter.