therealnews--2020-04-15--Systemic Healthcare And Income Inequality Are Why COVID-19 Is Killing Black People

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
Kim Brown : Welcome to The Real News .
I ’ m Kim Brown .
Do you remember how different things were just a few short months ago ?
Are you comfortable greeting people with hugs and kisses ?
The coronavirus pandemic has shifted our entire society , including the way we work , the way we interact and the way we socialize .
However , African-American communities are bearing the brunt of this disease in ways that other communities are not experiencing .
What @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ?
And what are some of the emerging behaviors of the virus that could help perhaps save lives as we go forward throughout this pandemic ?
Well , joining us today to discuss this is Dr. Leon McDougle .
Dr McDougle is the president-elect of the National Medical Association representing the collective voice of 45,000 African-American physicians .
He ’ s also pinned an op-ed recently that ’ s gotten a lot of attention , From Katrina to Coronavirus What Have We Learned ?
And Dr. McDougle joins us today .
So , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Dr. Leon McDoug… : Thank you for inviting me to talk with you this afternoon .
Kim Brown : So , doctor , before we get into some of the reasons why people of color and communities of color are dying at greater numbers than white people , for example , I wanted to get into some of the emerging information that is coming out about the coronavirus , about how it ’ s spread and how people who contract the virus , how they are being affected if they end up @ @ @ @ @ @ @ about the new data that has been released , there ’ s a story that ’ s floating around the internet that says that the coronavirus can now travel up to 13 feet airborne .
What are some of the other ways that people are contracting this virus ?
Can you contract it via touch , via blood ?
How is this virus transmitted ?
Dr. Leon McDoug… : So , respiratory droplets , that would be a primary mode of transmission .
And then also , touching surfaces that have been infected @ @ @ @ @ @ @ medical school we call those fomites .
And so , coming into contact with a surface that has been contaminated .
So , what you ’ re saying , Kim Brown , really makes it important that we follow recommendations for prevention of transmission .
And Dr. McDougle , what would that be ?
One , we just had resurrection weekend , right ?
And one of the best ways from a spirituality standpoint , a church-going standpoint , would be worship in place .
And what does that mean ?
It means @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And also , shelter in place .
So what does that mean ?
Shelter in place in your home , not at the local store , not at the restaurant .
And if you should happen to go into public settings , you should be wearing a mask .
Now , one caveat to that , Kim Brown .
So , there have been reports of African-American males being thought of as criminals and thought of being in the place of business to do things other than to purchase a product or item @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ve been recommending is that African-American males , especially , if we ’ re wearing the mass , maybe choose a white color or a light blue color similar to the medical mask , or actually if you can get a medical mask versus having a black mask .
And then , if you got a black mask and a hoodie on , then there are already these implicit biases out there .
So , just something to keep in mind when we get recommendations to wear a mask .
And I got @ @ @ @ @ @ @ good story for you Kim Brown .
So , I ’ m hearing all the chatter on television about , “ The hand sanitizers are sold out at the stores.
” Right ?
So , I went through the store and that was correct .
I mean , the whole shelf was empty .
But guess what ?
Right next to that empty space was a whole shelf full of hand soap with the dispensers .
So , what does that mean ?
Right ?
So , you shouldn ’ t be shaking @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , go ahead and buy some of that hand soap and put it in your restroom and in your bathrooms and use it with some water .
So , soap and water washing your hands , warm water for 20 seconds , that ’ s recommended .
And there ’ s plenty of soap in the store .
I checked .
Whole shelves full of it .
Kim Brown : You are right about that Dr. McDougle .
I don ’ t think soap is getting it ’ s proper respect these days @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
But I wanted to circle back to something that you mentioned , because in addition to a number of pre-existing conditions that so many people in the black community are dealing with , in addition to having to protect yourself going out in public from contracting COVID-19 , it ’ s the racism that will also get you .
And racism was getting a good number of us before this pandemic even erupted .
And the advice that you just gave black men in particular about wearing certain types of mask , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as possible when being out in public spaces , is sound advice .
And it ’ s not dissimilar from the advice that African-American parents give their teenage children when they begin to drive about how to best interact with police in order to save your life .
But the Centers for Disease Control listed obesity and hypertension as two of the main underlying conditions which can precipitate hospitalization , should those patients come in contact or become infected with coronavirus .
So , what is it about these underlying conditions that make @ @ @ @ @ @ @ black people have more of these underlying conditions than other communities ?
Dr. Leon McDoug… : So , let me go back to what you spoke to earlier .
You touched on racism and then we went into these other comorbidities or other illnesses that are more prevalent in the African-American population .
So , let ’ s redirect to the process of even getting tested , right ?
So , they ’ re scarce .
There ’ s scarcity in regards to the testing kits available .
So , to address that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ questions .
So , there is a screen before the screen .
And what we ’ re finding out is that more European Americans are giving the right answers to this test and are getting screened .
And it doesn ’ t quite fit with the fact that African-Americans , Latinx , American Indian and Alaska Natives are being affected more pronouncedly when they contract COVID-19 .
And so , even from the very beginning , getting their screening , there ’ s some disparities .
Now , I ’ ll give you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ news and they say , well , we have this breaking news .
They ’ ve set up COVID-19 screening centers .
So that the SUV driving in , right ?
And people getting their nasal swabs or so forth .
But Kim Brown , what they ’ re not saying is that many of these same drive-in centers , there are opportunities for people to walk in , right ?
But that ’ s not being advertised .
And so , if you don ’ t have a car and on top @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have a car , so now you don ’ t have a car , there ’ s access available for you through walk-in , where you are unaware .
So , there needs to be public service announcements , culturally sensitive , multi-lingual that speak to that .
So , if you know you don ’ t have a car , you ’ re just going to wait [ inaudible 00:00:10:04 ] .
I don ’ t have a car .
So what am I going to do ?
Then , in addition @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to , one of my colleagues in another state , I ’ m in Ohio , was saying that one actually needs to have a prescription from a physician to get screened .
So , we ’ ve identified another barrier .
So , what if you don ’ t have a primary care physician or a relationship with a physician , that puts you at another disadvantage .
Now , I ’ m going to introduce something else .
So , many of these cities with the high prevalence of COVID-19 and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ ve limited mass transportation .
So , now you ’ re black or brown , you ’ re in a high-density city , they ’ ve limited mass transportation .
And so , how are you even supposed to get to the testing center ?
If you , for some reason , pass the test , okay , and now you have to get on a train or bus to get to where you need to go for the testing , if you know that the walk-in is even available .
So @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not discussed much .
So , Kim Brown , that ’ s why I ’ m glad we ’ re having this conversation here today .
And also , with the National Medical Association , we ’ re partnering with Rainbow PUSH , with Reverend Jesse Jackson and putting together a 10-point agenda to help address some of these disparities , for example , with limitations in travel in communities that are a health professional shortage areas and then actually deploying mobile COVID-19 testing through a mobile testing unit .
And targeting those @ @ @ @ @ @ @ risks to developing COVID-19 infection .
Also , when algorithms are used to screen who and who should not receive the test , we ’ re advocating that African-Americans , Latinx , American Indians , Native Alaskans should receive a priority rating in regards to the waiting of whatever criteria is being used .
And then , there ’ s this whole issue of persons who are incarcerated .
So , Kim Brown , there are people who are incarcerated in jail that have not gone to trial , have not been convicted @ @ @ @ @ @ @ setting where they ’ re at higher risk for contracting COVID-19 coronavirus .
And only due to the fact that they were unable to post bail that they are in jail .
So , that ’ s another pool of people who we think there should be mechanisms to quickly adjudicate those circumstances and help them until their trial comes up .
Either some type of home arrest or whatever mechanism that ’ s available to help address those concerns .
So , there ’ s a lot .
Kim Brown : Well @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in here for a minute because you raised a number of interesting points .
And to be frank , people who are in the top levels of our federal government , especially amongst those who work in the public health sector , there is no way that these outcomes that you described could not have been foreseen in advance .
Again , as you mentioned , with the prison population , we already know or we had an idea of how contagious this virus is .
It wasn ’ t a question of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And discussing black communities , indigenous communities and Latinx communities who have already uneven access to health care , uneven access to transportation , uneven access to information , in some cases , about what to do and what not to do in the midst of a pandemic .
We are in the midst of this wildfire , but the kindling had long been laid .
Is this ineptitude from the federal level in their response , in their lack of preparedness for this ?
Surely they had to have known that vulnerable @ @ @ @ @ @ @ cities with the circumstances that you ’ ve outlined and that I ’ ve outlined , surely they had to know that these groups would have been impacted first and hardest .
Dr. Leon McDoug… : So , Kim Brown , a very good proposition there with regards to this issue .
And so , it reflects back on , and I shared earlier about the article that I wrote , From Katrina to Coronavirus , and how the national weather service was able to track the impending strike of Hurricane Katrina .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ intelligence agencies , the Centers for Disease Control and the World Health Organization were tracking the impending strike of coronavirus .
So that ’ s the line with what you were saying .
And with the prior administration , an actual pandemic planning and response team had been assigned by President Obama .
And that group , that task force was disbanded .
So , yes , people who have known that a pandemic such as this was inevitable .
And that ’ s what makes this November important .
For people in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not an option .
Learning what the issues are will better serve our communities .
So , you bring up a very good point .
Kim Brown : Well , doctor , I mean , sitting at home has to be an option at this point , does it not ?
I mean , there has to be alternatives provided to going physically into the polls to vote .
It ’ s just that- Dr. Leon McDoug… : So , mail .
So , I mean , Ohio , we just got four @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
So , mail-in ballots are important and should be utilized wherever possible .
Kim Brown : Well , doctor , to wrap up our conversation , if you had the ear of every community of color nationwide , because it is quite clear that the federal response is lacking .
Depending on what state you are , the state response is lacking to the black , brown and indigenous communities .
Tell us , what can we do to save ourselves in the midst of this pandemic ?
Dr. Leon McDoug… : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ some of these already .
Staying six feet apart , no mass gatherings , worship in place and that means at home , shelter in place and that means at home .
And I know that shelf of hand sanitizer is empty , but turn your head to the right and get some hand soap and wash your hands for 20 seconds in warm water .
And those are some of the main things , so just really… This is serious .
Wear the mask out in public .
And we talked about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ The National Medical Association with Rainbow PUSH , we ’ re going to be putting out a 10-pointed agenda even going into more of the details , flushing out what we were talking about earlier .
And so , this is a very serious issue that the African-American multi-cultural communities should be very well-versed in and advocate for yourself .
Take care of yourself due to the points that you importantly have brought out here today in this conversation .
Kim Brown : All right .
Well , we appreciate your time today @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Dr. Leon McDougle .
He is the president-elect of the National Medical Association , representing over 45,000 African-American physicians .
He ’ s been speaking to us today from Cleveland .
Dr McDougle , thank you so much for your time .
We appreciate it .
Dr. Leon McDoug… : Thank you very much , Kim Brown , and to all your staff that helped get us set up here today .
Kim Brown : Absolutely .
Well , thanks again and thank you for watching The Real News Network .

What good are drive-up testing sites if you don’t have a car? Dr. Leon McDougle explains how successful health outcomes are tilted against black and brown communities.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Kim Brown: Welcome to The Real News. I’m Kim Brown. Do you remember how different things were just a few short months ago? Are you comfortable greeting people with hugs and kisses? The coronavirus pandemic has shifted our entire society, including the way we work, the way we interact and the way we socialize.
However, African-American communities are bearing the brunt of this disease in ways that other communities are not experiencing. What are some of the reasons behind that? And what are some of the emerging behaviors of the virus that could help perhaps save lives as we go forward throughout this pandemic?
Well, joining us today to discuss this is Dr. Leon McDougle. Dr McDougle is the president-elect of the National Medical Association representing the collective voice of 45,000 African-American physicians. He’s also pinned an op-ed recently that’s gotten a lot of attention, From Katrina to Coronavirus What Have We Learned? And Dr. McDougle joins us today. So, thank you so much for your time.
Dr. Leon McDoug…: Thank you for inviting me to talk with you this afternoon.
Kim Brown: So, doctor, before we get into some of the reasons why people of color and communities of color are dying at greater numbers than white people, for example, I wanted to get into some of the emerging information that is coming out about the coronavirus, about how it’s spread and how people who contract the virus, how they are being affected if they end up surviving the illness.
When we talk about the new data that has been released, there’s a story that’s floating around the internet that says that the coronavirus can now travel up to 13 feet airborne. What are some of the other ways that people are contracting this virus? Can you contract it via touch, via blood? How is this virus transmitted?
Dr. Leon McDoug…: So, respiratory droplets, that would be a primary mode of transmission. And then also, touching surfaces that have been infected by someone who has coronavirus. In medical school we call those fomites. And so, coming into contact with a surface that has been contaminated. So, what you’re saying, Kim Brown, really makes it important that we follow recommendations for prevention of transmission.
And Dr. McDougle, what would that be? One, we just had resurrection weekend, right? And one of the best ways from a spirituality standpoint, a church-going standpoint, would be worship in place. And what does that mean? It means worship in place in your home. And also, shelter in place. So what does that mean? Shelter in place in your home, not at the local store, not at the restaurant. And if you should happen to go into public settings, you should be wearing a mask.
Now, one caveat to that, Kim Brown. So, there have been reports of African-American males being thought of as criminals and thought of being in the place of business to do things other than to purchase a product or item. And so, what I’ve been recommending is that African-American males, especially, if we’re wearing the mass, maybe choose a white color or a light blue color similar to the medical mask, or actually if you can get a medical mask versus having a black mask. And then, if you got a black mask and a hoodie on, then there are already these implicit biases out there. So, just something to keep in mind when we get recommendations to wear a mask.
And I got another good story. I got a good story for you Kim Brown. So, I’m hearing all the chatter on television about, “The hand sanitizers are sold out at the stores.” Right? So, I went through the store and that was correct. I mean, the whole shelf was empty. But guess what? Right next to that empty space was a whole shelf full of hand soap with the dispensers.
So, what does that mean? Right? So, you shouldn’t be shaking anybody’s hand anyway. So, go ahead and buy some of that hand soap and put it in your restroom and in your bathrooms and use it with some water. So, soap and water washing your hands, warm water for 20 seconds, that’s recommended. And there’s plenty of soap in the store. I checked. Whole shelves full of it.
Kim Brown: You are right about that Dr. McDougle. I don’t think soap is getting it’s proper respect these days, especially when juxtaposed with hand sanitizer. But I wanted to circle back to something that you mentioned, because in addition to a number of pre-existing conditions that so many people in the black community are dealing with, in addition to having to protect yourself going out in public from contracting COVID-19, it’s the racism that will also get you.
And racism was getting a good number of us before this pandemic even erupted. And the advice that you just gave black men in particular about wearing certain types of mask, I would assume to appear as nonthreatening as possible when being out in public spaces, is sound advice. And it’s not dissimilar from the advice that African-American parents give their teenage children when they begin to drive about how to best interact with police in order to save your life.
But the Centers for Disease Control listed obesity and hypertension as two of the main underlying conditions which can precipitate hospitalization, should those patients come in contact or become infected with coronavirus. So, what is it about these underlying conditions that make people more susceptible? And why do black people have more of these underlying conditions than other communities?
Dr. Leon McDoug…: So, let me go back to what you spoke to earlier. You touched on racism and then we went into these other comorbidities or other illnesses that are more prevalent in the African-American population. So, let’s redirect to the process of even getting tested, right? So, they’re scarce. There’s scarcity in regards to the testing kits available. So, to address that, algorithms have been developed to ask questions. So, there is a screen before the screen.
And what we’re finding out is that more European Americans are giving the right answers to this test and are getting screened. And it doesn’t quite fit with the fact that African-Americans, Latinx, American Indian and Alaska Natives are being affected more pronouncedly when they contract COVID-19. And so, even from the very beginning, getting their screening, there’s some disparities.
Now, I’ll give you another example. You watch your nightly news and they say, well, we have this breaking news. They’ve set up COVID-19 screening centers. So that the SUV driving in, right? And people getting their nasal swabs or so forth. But Kim Brown, what they’re not saying is that many of these same drive-in centers, there are opportunities for people to walk in, right? But that’s not being advertised.
And so, if you don’t have a car and on top of that… If you don’t have a car, so now you don’t have a car, there’s access available for you through walk-in, where you are unaware. So, there needs to be public service announcements, culturally sensitive, multi-lingual that speak to that. So, if you know you don’t have a car, you’re just going to wait [inaudible 00:00:10:04]. I don’t have a car. So what am I going to do?
Then, in addition to the screening questions that I spoke to, one of my colleagues in another state, I’m in Ohio, was saying that one actually needs to have a prescription from a physician to get screened. So, we’ve identified another barrier. So, what if you don’t have a primary care physician or a relationship with a physician, that puts you at another disadvantage.
Now, I’m going to introduce something else. So, many of these cities with the high prevalence of COVID-19 and they’re sheltering in, they’ve limited mass transportation. So, now you’re black or brown, you’re in a high-density city, they’ve limited mass transportation. And so, how are you even supposed to get to the testing center? If you, for some reason, pass the test, okay, and now you have to get on a train or bus to get to where you need to go for the testing, if you know that the walk-in is even available.
So, these are some issues that are not discussed much. So, Kim Brown, that’s why I’m glad we’re having this conversation here today. And also, with the National Medical Association, we’re partnering with Rainbow PUSH, with Reverend Jesse Jackson and putting together a 10-point agenda to help address some of these disparities, for example, with limitations in travel in communities that are a health professional shortage areas and then actually deploying mobile COVID-19 testing through a mobile testing unit. And targeting those communities that have lower access and higher risks to developing COVID-19 infection.
Also, when algorithms are used to screen who and who should not receive the test, we’re advocating that African-Americans, Latinx, American Indians, Native Alaskans should receive a priority rating in regards to the waiting of whatever criteria is being used.
And then, there’s this whole issue of persons who are incarcerated. So, Kim Brown, there are people who are incarcerated in jail that have not gone to trial, have not been convicted, and they’re in a setting where they’re at higher risk for contracting COVID-19 coronavirus. And only due to the fact that they were unable to post bail that they are in jail.
So, that’s another pool of people who we think there should be mechanisms to quickly adjudicate those circumstances and help them until their trial comes up. Either some type of home arrest or whatever mechanism that’s available to help address those concerns. So, there’s a lot.
Kim Brown: Well, Dr McDougle, let me hop in here for a minute because you raised a number of interesting points. And to be frank, people who are in the top levels of our federal government, especially amongst those who work in the public health sector, there is no way that these outcomes that you described could not have been foreseen in advance. Again, as you mentioned, with the prison population, we already know or we had an idea of how contagious this virus is. It wasn’t a question of if, but rather of when.
And discussing black communities, indigenous communities and Latinx communities who have already uneven access to health care, uneven access to transportation, uneven access to information, in some cases, about what to do and what not to do in the midst of a pandemic. We are in the midst of this wildfire, but the kindling had long been laid.
Is this ineptitude from the federal level in their response, in their lack of preparedness for this? Surely they had to have known that vulnerable populations like the black population in many cities with the circumstances that you’ve outlined and that I’ve outlined, surely they had to know that these groups would have been impacted first and hardest.
Dr. Leon McDoug…: So, Kim Brown, a very good proposition there with regards to this issue. And so, it reflects back on, and I shared earlier about the article that I wrote, From Katrina to Coronavirus, and how the national weather service was able to track the impending strike of Hurricane Katrina. And with this coronavirus, the national intelligence agencies, the Centers for Disease Control and the World Health Organization were tracking the impending strike of coronavirus. So that’s the line with what you were saying.
And with the prior administration, an actual pandemic planning and response team had been assigned by President Obama. And that group, that task force was disbanded. So, yes, people who have known that a pandemic such as this was inevitable. And that’s what makes this November important. For people in the audience, sitting at home is not an option. Learning what the issues are will better serve our communities. So, you bring up a very good point.
Kim Brown: Well, doctor, I mean, sitting at home has to be an option at this point, does it not? I mean, there has to be alternatives provided to going physically into the polls to vote. It’s just that-
Dr. Leon McDoug…: So, mail. So, I mean, Ohio, we just got four mail-in ballots, ballots in the mail. So, mail-in ballots are important and should be utilized wherever possible.
Kim Brown: Well, doctor, to wrap up our conversation, if you had the ear of every community of color nationwide, because it is quite clear that the federal response is lacking. Depending on what state you are, the state response is lacking to the black, brown and indigenous communities. Tell us, what can we do to save ourselves in the midst of this pandemic?
Dr. Leon McDoug…: So, we’ve gone over some of these already. Staying six feet apart, no mass gatherings, worship in place and that means at home, shelter in place and that means at home. And I know that shelf of hand sanitizer is empty, but turn your head to the right and get some hand soap and wash your hands for 20 seconds in warm water. And those are some of the main things, so just really… This is serious. Wear the mask out in public. And we talked about the precautions too for African-American males.
The National Medical Association with Rainbow PUSH, we’re going to be putting out a 10-pointed agenda even going into more of the details, flushing out what we were talking about earlier. And so, this is a very serious issue that the African-American multi-cultural communities should be very well-versed in and advocate for yourself. Take care of yourself due to the points that you importantly have brought out here today in this conversation.
Kim Brown: All right. Well, we appreciate your time today. We’ve been speaking with Dr. Leon McDougle. He is the president-elect of the National Medical Association, representing over 45,000 African-American physicians. He’s been speaking to us today from Cleveland. Dr McDougle, thank you so much for your time. We appreciate it.
Dr. Leon McDoug…: Thank you very much, Kim Brown, and to all your staff that helped get us set up here today.
Kim Brown: Absolutely. Well, thanks again and thank you for watching The Real News Network.
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therealnews--2020-04-15--Stir Crazy! Episode #14: The Left Ruins Everything!

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therealnews--2020-04-15--The FBI Is Still Hunting For Ways To Call US Activists Terrorists

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
Jacqueline Lugm… : This is Jacqueline Luqman with The Real News Network .
Lest we ever forget that the Federal Bureau of Investigation only exists to investigate and nullify threats to the US capitalists and white supremacist hegemony in this country , a new investigation by the Intercept reveals that the Bureau has yet again targeted a group of American peace activists and branded them as terrorists .
Here to explain the latest episode in the ongoing saga of the FBI ’ s program of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is over , but is not , is Chip Gibbons .
Chip is a journalist and researcher .
His work has appeared in Jacobin , In These Times , and the Nation magazines .
He ’ s also the policy director of Defending Rights & Dissent , where he authored the report Still Spying on Dissent : Ihe Enduring Problem of FBI First Amendment Abuse .
And you should follow Chip on [ email protected ] Chip , thanks so much for joining me .
Chip Gibbons : Thank you for having me @ @ @ @ @ @ @ back on The Real News .
The first time I was on The Real News , I was also talking about the FBI as it was the anniversary of the revelation of COINTELPRO , so .
Jacqueline Lugm… : So your article in The Intercept focuses on an investigation into the FBI ’ s investigation into a Palestinian solidarity group .
One investigation happened in St. Louis , so tell us about the group they were looking at and what they do .
Chip Gibbons : Sure .
So all the way back @ @ @ @ @ @ @ got the documents , thanks to a lawsuit .
I filled out a FOIA request looking for FBI surveillance into different pro-Palestinian groups .
They came back , they had a large amount of documents about the International Solidarity Movement , which is a nonviolent group , twice nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize that encourages Americans and other internationals to go to the occupied Palestinian territories and engage in direct action against the occupation .
The FBI , these hundreds of pages of files we got through [ inaudible 00:02:19 ] a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Show multiple terrorism investigations into this nonviolent group .
They show a use of physical surveillance , confidential informants , dozens of field offices involved .
A very mysterious day cable .
I ’ ll talk about more later .
And they came up with nothing .
And there ’ s two major investigations we can make sense of .
The first one be one in St. Louis like you mentioned .
And what happened was 2003 , 2004 , a group of peace activists including a Holocaust survivor , Heidi Epstein @ @ @ @ @ @ @ an ISM delegation .
One of the activists was injured when the IDF opened up fire on a peaceful Palestinian protest .
Heidi Epstein , the Holocaust survivor , when she tried to leave Israel , was subjected to a humiliating strip search .
And instead of looking at these deprivations of the rights of Americans , these St. Louis FBI , after meeting with a source of unknown reliability , decides to assess these two individuals for terrorism based on a claim that they found inside an FBI database that some ISM @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
And they investigated these two activists , it is not clear why they only singled two out for two years .
And with one of the activists , they got the Communication Analysis Unit of the FBI , which was formed after 9/11 to analyze call records and has been repeatedly found itself in scandals .
My favorite scandal involved in this unit was the inspector general found .
They had three employees from the telecom… Had employees in three different telecom companies in the office with the FBI who had access @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s only supposed to be able to get with a subpoena or a national security letter and those employees were letting the FBI agents take sneak peeks at the records .
Jacqueline Lugm… : Let ’ s be clear on what you just said .
Jacqueline Lugm… : … so people understand what this unit of the FBI was doing .
They were only supposed to receive copies of phone records of American citizens via a subpoena .
Jacqueline Lugm… : Or what was that ?
Jacqueline Lugm… : Or a national security @ @ @ @ @ @ @ agencies were taking pages of documents of people ’ s phone records and letting the FBI look at them .
Chip Gibbons : Well , they had it all on the computer in front of them .
They had two different computers , one with the… One for their telecom company job and one with the FBI .
And these people would just write a name or a number on a piece of paper and they would peek over the shoulder or whatever .
And that ’ s just one of the times @ @ @ @ @ @ @ improperly accessing phone records .
In another circumstance they are found to be making false exigent circumstance claims saying they were going to get a subpoena or a national security letter , but there was an exigent circumstance and they needed the information right now .
And it turned out in many of the cases , they were not exigent circumstances and sometimes they never went to even got the subpoena .
So this is extremely scandal-filled unit during this time .
This is back during the Bush administration .
And at the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ one of the activist ’ s phone records and from the documents we have , it said after analyzing his phone records , one of the numbers , presumably somebody he called , or somebody he called , called is linked to a highly classified CIA cable .
The FBI though was never supposed to have access to that cable .
The CIA won ’ t give it to them .
It ’ s kind of funny , kind of scary .
But the end result is after two years of investigation , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ two subjects broke any US laws , neither threatened US national security , and by all evidence they were engaged in Palestinian activism .
And I want to stress as someone who reads a lot of these documents and looked at them with a former FBI agent , it ’ s extremely rare that the FBI will use that kind of exonerating language , so that shows how extreme this case is , but it ’ s part of a larger pattern .
The FBI was doing lots of ISM investigations .
Three @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Los Angeles Field office , with the permission of the National headquarters opens a domestic… The St. Louis one was an international terrorist investigation , opens a domestic terrorism investigation into the ISM as a terrorist enterprise .
And they have not only approval from National , they get to go to Washington and have a coordinating meeting .
There ’ s at least 10 different field offices involved .
Local police are involved .
You read through these documents and the types of things they say are things like , “ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ anti-globe philosophy.
” I assume anti-globe means anti-globalization and not like Flat Earth , who know with the FBI .
And because they ’ re sympathetic to the Palestinian cause , they could be coerced into becoming terrorists .
And think about what that means .
That is criminalizing a First Amendment protected point-of-view .
They ’ re saying if you don ’ t like the real bank , if you don ’ t like capitalism , if you think the Palestinians shouldn ’ t have to live under apartheid , that makes @ @ @ @ @ @ @ become a terrorist , and therefore we should investigate you .
Jacqueline Lugm… : So let me interrupt just for a second here , Chip , and to be clear , this is a separate investigation- Jacqueline Lugm… : … from the first investigation- Jacqueline Lugm… : … into a few individuals in St. Louis .
This investigation was of the national organization .
Jacqueline Lugm… : Because it , the FBI wasn ’ t satisfied that the two individuals were not actual terrorists .
Jacqueline Lugm… : They had to , they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that the organization is a terrorist organization ?
Chip Gibbons : It seems like they were started completely independently of each other .
It doesn ’ t seem like St. Louis knew what Los Angeles was doing , and Los Angeles [ inaudible 00:08:51 ] until much later on .
At which point National sends a memo to both offices after the LA investigation ’ s been closed and someone just writes on the memo .
I have a copy from both the LA file and the St. Louis file .
And on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on it , “ Closed ?
” And another thing , in the case files for the two St. Louis activists , in both of their case files , an FBI agent on the copy guy has handwritten in the margins , “ No evidence , no leads.
” But they could pull the phone records and run it against the CIA cable .
But no one knows what it is , that ’ s too secret even for the FBI .
Going back to the LA investigation , about six months into @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ re investigating them in part because they believe they ’ re violating the Neutrality Act of 1794 ?
Jacqueline Lugm… : And what is that ?
What is the Neutrality Act of 1794 .
Chip Gibbons : That was put in place by George Washington because he was concerned that American support for the French Revolution could lead us into a war with Britain .
It makes it a crime to take up arms against a foreign prince or dominion .
That ’ s all it is .
It mentions foreign princes @ @ @ @ @ @ @ at war with .
You can ’ t raise a hostile ship against a foreign prince or dominion on US soil .
You can ’ t go and damage property .
But infamously , this law has been extremely selectively enforced because your listeners are probably sitting there thinking right now , “ Hey , what about the Bay of Pigs Invasion ?
” Chip Gibbons : What about all the far-right groups ?
And Robert F. Kennedy was attorney general , and he actually had to give a public statement saying the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Bay of Pigs investigation because it doesn ’ t apply to people who leave the US to go and fight for a cause in which they will believe , which is totally [ crosstalk 00:10:44 ] .
And then the case of the Contras , these are people who are trying to overthrow the Sandinista government of Nicaragua and they attack civilian infrastructure like healthcare clinics , like adult literacy centers .
You can argue whether or not the word terrorism has any meaning whatsoever .
But if it did have meaning , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ healthcare clinic .
That strikes me as terrorist .
But in spite of this , they use this to go after nonviolent peaceful activists who are engaging in direct action in the occupied Palestinian territories .
And I want to point out , the US isn ’ t exactly neutral in the Middle East either .
They ’ re not exactly endangering .
It was like , “ Oh , we were always neutral in the Middle East until these crazy activists came along and got us involved.
” It ’ s like @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of dollars to an apartheid state.
” Jacqueline Lugm… : Absolutely .
I mean , Martin Luther King Jr. himself said that the United States is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world .
Now I want to ask you , Chip , what was the scope of this investigation from LA ?
Because the investigation in St. Louis was focused on a few people .
What was the scope of this investigation in LA , and how long did it go on ?
Chip Gibbons : It went on from about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ than the St. Louis one .
But in most of the documents are heavily redacted , but it is massive .
In the LA files , we see documents from Chicago , we see documents from Dallas , we see documents from all over the country saying we went and did physical surveillance .
We went and did , talked to an informant .
We had LA , we had Chicago police helping us with this .
And like I said , National headquarters signs off on the investigation and they have a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ building in Washington D.C. with the National Terrorism Team , the LA Field office and two different field offices in Texas .
And then while they ’ re in D.C. , They go and meet with the Baltimore Field office .
So there ’ s at least 10 different field offices involved , to say nothing of local police .
One of the documents I saw mentions as an accomplishment , that they were briefing the California highway patrol on the investigation .
I guess , who enforces Neutrality Act , the California @ @ @ @ @ @ @ comes up with nothing , nothing , Jacqueline Lugm… : The result of this massive investigation was- Chip Gibbons : Nothing at all , not a single thing , no , that we know of .
Jacqueline Lugm… : So now we have two investigations into this organization .
One focusing on people , one focusing widely on the organization on a national scale .
Comes up with no incriminating , anything to suggest that these people involved in the organization , or the organization itself are anything other than what they say @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for solidarity with the Palestinian people .
And that ’ s great for the organization and those people who were investigated .
But what has the result of that investigation done to the individuals who found out they were being investigated ?
And then I need you to explain what this means about the FBI and how it views domestic dissent still in this country today ?
Chip Gibbons : Sure .
I mean , I think the thing is that many activists anticipate unfortunately that they ’ re going to be spied @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 110-year legacy as the political police in this country .
And as a result , many of the activists I spoke to , Brian Tyler [ inaudible 00:14:42 ] , one of the activists mentioned in the article had gotten a voicemail from the FBI .
Another ISM activist , who I was in conversation with earlier this week , she actually has been spoken to the FBI ’ s as recently as 2015 , which isn ’ t even in these documents .
So there ’ s clearly more .
Nonetheless , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ our democracy to have people be spied on .
So the thing about the FBI is they ’ re not just a domestic law enforcement agency , they ’ re also a domestic intelligence agency .
The very first intelligence division started within the Bureau of Investigation , which is a precursor of the FBI , was during the First Red Scare .
It was headed up by J. Edgar Hoover , and it was initially called the Radical Division because they were rounding up radicals during the Palmer raids .
They quickly @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , but this type of political policing is hardwired into the DNA of the FBI .
Jacqueline Lugm… : And I didn ’ t want to ask this question until we got to the end because I want people to understand that the FBI operates under a specific ideology in this country .
The reason it targets organizations and individuals that express a particularly anti-imperialist , anti-capitalist , anti-racist view politically is because the FBI is indeed influenced by very right-wing views .
What were some of the reasons , or some of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to in the reasoning it gave for investigating some of these people in this organization ?
And these sources that were very shady .
Chip Gibbons : In both investigations , we see stuff from FrontPage Magazine , which was a very notorious Bush era , it might still exist , Bush era thing from David Horowitz criticized by the Southern Poverty Law Center as sort of a sphere of Islamophobia .
It was all about trying to link anti-war activists to other people who were bad .
And in the LA investigation @ @ @ @ @ @ @ one of the bits of evidence to continue for their six months .
They cite to two different FrontPage Magazine articles .
And the one is just filled with blatant falsehoods that actually contradicts stuff on the state department website , right ?
Like they talk about some sort of ISM activist who was shot by the IDF , IDF sniper eventually court-martialed so that ’ s later on .
So it ’ s bad if even the IDF and they ’ re just making things up about him saying , “ Oh @ @ @ @ @ @ @ maybe he was in uniform , maybe he was shooting at the IDF.
” And I went on the state department website and read the human rights report for the occupied Palestinian territories for that year .
And sure enough , it mentions him .
He was , and that ’ s not the story .
He was just shot as a civilian .
So just stuff that ’ s easily debunked and shouldn ’ t be taken seriously .
But this is a continuous problem for the FBI .
We know that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ at Central American solidarity activists , they were looking at stuff from the John Birch society .
We know they ’ re black and identity extremism prosecution more recently , or the instigating thing was something on Infowars , the website from Alex Jones .
The government thing , juice boxes to make the frogs gay .
You know that sort of high level of analysis .
And this is what they ’ re reading and making investigative decisions based on .
And I also think we have to understand that the FBI @ @ @ @ @ @ @ You mentioned COINTELPRO at the beginning and COINTELPRO is just one small part of the larger sort of the FBI surveillance .
It actually wasn ’ t even a surveillance program at all .
How the Church Committee , not me , the Church Committee described it was that it was a covert action .
A domestic covert action aimed at protecting the status quo .
And the reason why COINTELPRO was started in 1956 was because the FBI recognized that they didn ’ t have a way to prosecute members of the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ literally was a program to neutralize speech that was protected by the First Amendment , by people who had not committed any sort of other crimes .
So and there ’ s still defending the status quo .
They might not be doing the COINTELPRO style covert actions .
They might just be doing the surveillance , not just surveillance , it ’ s still very bad .
But there ’ s still acting in defense of the status quo , that ’ s what the FBI was founded to do .
That @ @ @ @ @ @ @ up a radical division rounding up people during the Palmer raids .
On the date of the Palmer raids was the first anniversary of the Bolshevik revolution .
You know , just to make sure it was really on the nose .
Radical , so he goes and rounds up people on the anniversary- Chip Gibbons : Yeah , yeah .
On the Bolshevik and COINTELPRO , a domestic covert action to just a few years after the Church Committee , they ’ re spying on the committee in solidarity to people in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the first Gulf war .
They go and visit Arab Americans at their homes randomly .
There ’ s a whole bunch of stuff coming out as part of a documentary filmmaker who made a movie called the Don ’ t Want to be Watched , showing throughout the Clinton years .
They were spying on Arab and Muslim neighborhoods in mass surveillance .
And then just everything that happens after 9/11 , where we know they ’ re spying on Inspector General ’ s Reports , spying on Greenpeace , Catholic workers @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this one do we keep seeing ?
We see FOIA documents show X Group is spied on .
So it ’ s very much the norm , unfortunately .
Jacqueline Lugm… : So Chip , how do us radicals and our radical friends who are watching , how do we respond to this while continuing our activities to challenge the status quo ?
How do we challenge an intelligence and surveillance apparatus that masks itself as a law enforcement agency ?
That really exists to thwart radical freedom movements in this country ?
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ do we do ?
Chip Gibbons : Yeah , sure .
So I think it ’ s important we don ’ t let the FBI scare us into silence , right ?
We should never give up our voice to the FBI .
That ’ s what they would like .
But we also should be aware that the FBI is probably watching .
We should be aware that they send informants in that do bad things or try to get us to agree to do things that are foolish , first of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , [ inaudible 00:21:46 ] .
If somebody suggests you do something illegal and foolish , you should , whether or not that person ’ s an FBI informant or not , kick them out of your life .
And I think we should be demanding some congressional action .
The FBI or the Bureau of Investigation was created under Theodore Roosevelt while Congress was on a recess .
To this day , they have no legislative charter .
After the Church Committee , they let the Attorney General make rules for them @ @ @ @ @ @ @ attorney generals have made those rules less stringent .
Of the disturbing thing is that these investigations happen 2004 to 2006 , the FBI rules much more stringent than they are now .
So right ?
Like George W Bush ’ s lame duck attorney general who literally Obama is elected , but not yet president , puts out new FBI guidelines .
They don ’ t allow for the first time since the Church Committee , the FBI , to investigate people , doing so-called assessments without any sort of factual predicate @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
So these are investigations that took place under the old standards that required facts .
Obviously facts that are not that high of a standard for the FBI , FBI facts , if you will .
But nonetheless , why is that allowed ?
Why didn ’ t Eric Holder rescind them ?
Was he too busy ?
He wasn ’ t too busy prosecuting Wall Street bankers or Bush era torturers .
Jacqueline Lugm… : He certainly was not .
Chip Gibbons : He ’ s not doing that .
Where @ @ @ @ @ @ @ time now put a charter together .
After the Central American solidarity investigations , the Senate did a full investigation .
They made the General Accountability Office review FBI international terrorism investigations broadly .
And a member of Congress proposed a bill repeatedly between 1988 and 1994 , I believe , called the FBI First Amendment Protection Act , which would have put some real reforms on it , never passed .
Interesting story , when Nancy Pelosi first comes to Congress , she ’ s a cosponsor of it .
Maybe someone @ @ @ @ @ @ @ there ’ re things that could be done , but they ’ re not .
Jacqueline Lugm… : So the moral of the story , friends is continue to be radical , continue to fight to uphold and exercise your First Amendment rights .
Do not let the FBI bully you into silence and continue to fight for justice and peace .
Chip Gibbons , thank you so much for joining me to talk about this ongoing issue with the FBI .
We appreciate your work very much .
Chip Gibbons : Thank @ @ @ @ @ @ @ It ’ s always a pleasure to be on The Real News , one of my favorite programs .
Jacqueline Lugm… : Thank you so much .
You are one of our favorite , favorite authors and we enjoy and really appreciate the work you do .
And we appreciate you for watching .
Thank you so much for being a viewer for The Real News Network .
This is Jacquelyn Luqman from the Belly of the Beast , Washington D.C .

The FBI wants you to believe they stopped spying on anti-imperialist, anti-capitalist activists. They haven’t.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Jacqueline Lugm…: This is Jacqueline Luqman with The Real News Network. Lest we ever forget that the Federal Bureau of Investigation only exists to investigate and nullify threats to the US capitalists and white supremacist hegemony in this country, a new investigation by the Intercept reveals that the Bureau has yet again targeted a group of American peace activists and branded them as terrorists. Here to explain the latest episode in the ongoing saga of the FBI’s program of COINTELPRO that they want you to think is over, but is not, is Chip Gibbons. Chip is a journalist and researcher. His work has appeared in Jacobin, In These Times, and the Nation magazines. He’s also the policy director of Defending Rights & Dissent, where he authored the report Still Spying on Dissent: Ihe Enduring Problem of FBI First Amendment Abuse. And you should follow Chip on Twitter@ChipGibbons89. Chip, thanks so much for joining me.
Chip Gibbons: Thank you for having me. I’m glad to be back on The Real News. The first time I was on The Real News, I was also talking about the FBI as it was the anniversary of the revelation of COINTELPRO, so.
Jacqueline Lugm…: So your article in The Intercept focuses on an investigation into the FBI’s investigation into a Palestinian solidarity group. One investigation happened in St. Louis, so tell us about the group they were looking at and what they do.
Chip Gibbons: Sure. So all the way back in 2015, but I only just got the documents, thanks to a lawsuit. I filled out a FOIA request looking for FBI surveillance into different pro-Palestinian groups. They came back, they had a large amount of documents about the International Solidarity Movement, which is a nonviolent group, twice nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize that encourages Americans and other internationals to go to the occupied Palestinian territories and engage in direct action against the occupation. The FBI, these hundreds of pages of files we got through [inaudible 00:02:19] a lot of them and redact it more. Show multiple terrorism investigations into this nonviolent group. They show a use of physical surveillance, confidential informants, dozens of field offices involved. A very mysterious day cable. I’ll talk about more later. And they came up with nothing. And there’s two major investigations we can make sense of.
The first one be one in St. Louis like you mentioned. And what happened was 2003, 2004, a group of peace activists including a Holocaust survivor, Heidi Epstein, went to the occupied territories on an ISM delegation. One of the activists was injured when the IDF opened up fire on a peaceful Palestinian protest. Heidi Epstein, the Holocaust survivor, when she tried to leave Israel, was subjected to a humiliating strip search. And instead of looking at these deprivations of the rights of Americans, these St. Louis FBI, after meeting with a source of unknown reliability, decides to assess these two individuals for terrorism based on a claim that they found inside an FBI database that some ISM associates had sympathies for more radical groups. And they investigated these two activists, it is not clear why they only singled two out for two years. And with one of the activists, they got the Communication Analysis Unit of the FBI, which was formed after 9/11 to analyze call records and has been repeatedly found itself in scandals.
My favorite scandal involved in this unit was the inspector general found. They had three employees from the telecom… Had employees in three different telecom companies in the office with the FBI who had access to telecom records. The FBI’s only supposed to be able to get with a subpoena or a national security letter and those employees were letting the FBI agents take sneak peeks at the records.
Jacqueline Lugm…: Wait, hold on, hold on.
Chip Gibbons: Yes.
Jacqueline Lugm…: Let’s be clear on what you just said.
Chip Gibbons: Oh yeah, yeah.
Jacqueline Lugm…: Let’s be clear-
Chip Gibbons: Yeah.
Jacqueline Lugm…: … so people understand what this unit of the FBI was doing. They were only supposed to receive copies of phone records of American citizens via a subpoena.
Chip Gibbons: Or national security letter.
Jacqueline Lugm…: Or what was that?
Chip Gibbons: National security letter.
Jacqueline Lugm…: Or a national security letter, but employees of the telecommunications agencies were taking pages of documents of people’s phone records and letting the FBI look at them.
Chip Gibbons: Well, they had it all on the computer in front of them. They had two different computers, one with the… One for their telecom company job and one with the FBI. And these people would just write a name or a number on a piece of paper and they would peek over the shoulder or whatever. And that’s just one of the times the inspector general found, they were improperly accessing phone records. In another circumstance they are found to be making false exigent circumstance claims saying they were going to get a subpoena or a national security letter, but there was an exigent circumstance and they needed the information right now. And it turned out in many of the cases, they were not exigent circumstances and sometimes they never went to even got the subpoena. So this is extremely scandal-filled unit during this time.
This is back during the Bush administration. And at the same time we know this unit pulled one of the activist’s phone records and from the documents we have, it said after analyzing his phone records, one of the numbers, presumably somebody he called, or somebody he called, called is linked to a highly classified CIA cable. The FBI though was never supposed to have access to that cable. The CIA won’t give it to them. It’s kind of funny, kind of scary. But the end result is after two years of investigation, the FBI concludes, neither of the two subjects broke any US laws, neither threatened US national security, and by all evidence they were engaged in Palestinian activism. And I want to stress as someone who reads a lot of these documents and looked at them with a former FBI agent, it’s extremely rare that the FBI will use that kind of exonerating language, so that shows how extreme this case is, but it’s part of a larger pattern.
The FBI was doing lots of ISM investigations. Three months after the St. Louis investigation, the Los Angeles Field office, with the permission of the National headquarters opens a domestic… The St. Louis one was an international terrorist investigation, opens a domestic terrorism investigation into the ISM as a terrorist enterprise. And they have not only approval from National, they get to go to Washington and have a coordinating meeting. There’s at least 10 different field offices involved. Local police are involved. You read through these documents and the types of things they say are things like, “Oh, because they have anti-capitalists and anti-globe philosophy.” I assume anti-globe means anti-globalization and not like Flat Earth, who know with the FBI. And because they’re sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, they could be coerced into becoming terrorists. And think about what that means. That is criminalizing a First Amendment protected point-of-view. They’re saying if you don’t like the real bank, if you don’t like capitalism, if you think the Palestinians shouldn’t have to live under apartheid, that makes you more likely than someone else to become a terrorist, and therefore we should investigate you.
Jacqueline Lugm…: So let me interrupt just for a second here, Chip, and to be clear, this is a separate investigation-
Chip Gibbons: Yes.
Jacqueline Lugm…: … from the first investigation-
Chip Gibbons: Yes.
Jacqueline Lugm…: … into a few individuals in St. Louis. This investigation was of the national organization.
Chip Gibbons: Yes.
Jacqueline Lugm…: Because it, the FBI wasn’t satisfied that the two individuals were not actual terrorists.
Chip Gibbons: So now-
Jacqueline Lugm…: They had to, they’re trying to make a case that the organization is a terrorist organization?
Chip Gibbons: It seems like they were started completely independently of each other. It doesn’t seem like St. Louis knew what Los Angeles was doing, and Los Angeles [inaudible 00:08:51] until much later on. At which point National sends a memo to both offices after the LA investigation’s been closed and someone just writes on the memo. I have a copy from both the LA file and the St. Louis file. And on the LA file, someone just wrote on it, “Closed?” And another thing, in the case files for the two St. Louis activists, in both of their case files, an FBI agent on the copy guy has handwritten in the margins, “No evidence, no leads.” But they could pull the phone records and run it against the CIA cable. But no one knows what it is, that’s too secret even for the FBI. Going back to the LA investigation, about six months into it, the documents show, they’re investigating them in part because they believe they’re violating the Neutrality Act of 1794?
Jacqueline Lugm…: And what is that? What is the Neutrality Act of 1794.
Chip Gibbons: That was put in place by George Washington because he was concerned that American support for the French Revolution could lead us into a war with Britain. It makes it a crime to take up arms against a foreign prince or dominion. That’s all it is. It mentions foreign princes or dominions that the US is not at war with. You can’t raise a hostile ship against a foreign prince or dominion on US soil. You can’t go and damage property. But infamously, this law has been extremely selectively enforced because your listeners are probably sitting there thinking right now, “Hey, what about the Bay of Pigs Invasion?”
Jacqueline Lugm…: Yes.
Chip Gibbons: “What about the Contras?
Jacqueline Lugm…: Yes.
Chip Gibbons: What about all the far-right groups? And Robert F. Kennedy was attorney general, and he actually had to give a public statement saying the Neutrality Act does not apply to the Bay of Pigs investigation because it doesn’t apply to people who leave the US to go and fight for a cause in which they will believe, which is totally [crosstalk 00:10:44] . And then the case of the Contras, these are people who are trying to overthrow the Sandinista government of Nicaragua and they attack civilian infrastructure like healthcare clinics, like adult literacy centers. You can argue whether or not the word terrorism has any meaning whatsoever. But if it did have meaning, Contras trying to topple government by attacking healthcare clinic. That strikes me as terrorist.
But in spite of this, they use this to go after nonviolent peaceful activists who are engaging in direct action in the occupied Palestinian territories. And I want to point out, the US isn’t exactly neutral in the Middle East either. They’re not exactly endangering. It was like, “Oh, we were always neutral in the Middle East until these crazy activists came along and got us involved.” It’s like, “No, we sent millions of dollars to an apartheid state.”
Jacqueline Lugm…: Absolutely. I mean, Martin Luther King Jr. himself said that the United States is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world. Now I want to ask you, Chip, what was the scope of this investigation from LA? Because the investigation in St. Louis was focused on a few people. What was the scope of this investigation in LA, and how long did it go on?
Chip Gibbons: It went on from about 2004 to 2005, so less long than the St. Louis one. But in most of the documents are heavily redacted, but it is massive. In the LA files, we see documents from Chicago, we see documents from Dallas, we see documents from all over the country saying we went and did physical surveillance. We went and did, talked to an informant. We had LA, we had Chicago police helping us with this.
And like I said, National headquarters signs off on the investigation and they have a coordinating meeting at the J. Edgar Hoover building in Washington D.C. with the National Terrorism Team, the LA Field office and two different field offices in Texas. And then while they’re in D.C., They go and meet with the Baltimore Field office. So there’s at least 10 different field offices involved, to say nothing of local police. One of the documents I saw mentions as an accomplishment, that they were briefing the California highway patrol on the investigation. I guess, who enforces Neutrality Act, the California highway patrol. So massively sprawling investigation comes up with nothing, nothing,
Jacqueline Lugm…: Nothing.
Chip Gibbons: Nothing.
Jacqueline Lugm…: The result of this massive investigation was-
Chip Gibbons: Nothing at all, not a single thing, no, that we know of.
Jacqueline Lugm…: So now we have two investigations into this organization. One focusing on people, one focusing widely on the organization on a national scale. Comes up with no incriminating, anything to suggest that these people involved in the organization, or the organization itself are anything other than what they say they are, a nonviolent organization advocating for solidarity with the Palestinian people. And that’s great for the organization and those people who were investigated. But what has the result of that investigation done to the individuals who found out they were being investigated? And then I need you to explain what this means about the FBI and how it views domestic dissent still in this country today?
Chip Gibbons: Sure. I mean, I think the thing is that many activists anticipate unfortunately that they’re going to be spied on by the FBI, given their 110-year legacy as the political police in this country. And as a result, many of the activists I spoke to, Brian Tyler [inaudible 00:14:42], one of the activists mentioned in the article had gotten a voicemail from the FBI. Another ISM activist, who I was in conversation with earlier this week, she actually has been spoken to the FBI’s as recently as 2015, which isn’t even in these documents. So there’s clearly more.
Nonetheless, it’s still very corrosive to our democracy to have people be spied on. So the thing about the FBI is they’re not just a domestic law enforcement agency, they’re also a domestic intelligence agency. The very first intelligence division started within the Bureau of Investigation, which is a precursor of the FBI, was during the First Red Scare. It was headed up by J. Edgar Hoover, and it was initially called the Radical Division because they were rounding up radicals during the Palmer raids. They quickly changed the name to General Intelligence Division, but this type of political policing is hardwired into the DNA of the FBI.
Jacqueline Lugm…: And I didn’t want to ask this question until we got to the end because I want people to understand that the FBI operates under a specific ideology in this country. The reason it targets organizations and individuals that express a particularly anti-imperialist, anti-capitalist, anti-racist view politically is because the FBI is indeed influenced by very right-wing views. What were some of the reasons, or some of the so-called evidence that the FBI pointed to in the reasoning it gave for investigating some of these people in this organization? And these sources that were very shady.
Chip Gibbons: In both investigations, we see stuff from FrontPage Magazine, which was a very notorious Bush era, it might still exist, Bush era thing from David Horowitz criticized by the Southern Poverty Law Center as sort of a sphere of Islamophobia. It was all about trying to link anti-war activists to other people who were bad. And in the LA investigation, in one of the statements or one of the bits of evidence to continue for their six months. They cite to two different FrontPage Magazine articles.
And the one is just filled with blatant falsehoods that actually contradicts stuff on the state department website, right? Like they talk about some sort of ISM activist who was shot by the IDF, IDF sniper eventually court-martialed so that’s later on. So it’s bad if even the IDF and they’re just making things up about him saying, “Oh, we don’t know, maybe he was in uniform, maybe he was shooting at the IDF.” And I went on the state department website and read the human rights report for the occupied Palestinian territories for that year. And sure enough, it mentions him. He was, and that’s not the story. He was just shot as a civilian.
So just stuff that’s easily debunked and shouldn’t be taken seriously. But this is a continuous problem for the FBI. We know that in the 1980s when they were looking at Central American solidarity activists, they were looking at stuff from the John Birch society. We know they’re black and identity extremism prosecution more recently, or the instigating thing was something on Infowars, the website from Alex Jones. The government thing, juice boxes to make the frogs gay. You know that sort of high level of analysis. And this is what they’re reading and making investigative decisions based on. And I also think we have to understand that the FBI acts in ideological ways as well. You mentioned COINTELPRO at the beginning and COINTELPRO is just one small part of the larger sort of the FBI surveillance.
It actually wasn’t even a surveillance program at all. How the Church Committee, not me, the Church Committee described it was that it was a covert action. A domestic covert action aimed at protecting the status quo. And the reason why COINTELPRO was started in 1956 was because the FBI recognized that they didn’t have a way to prosecute members of the communist party. So it’s literally was a program to neutralize speech that was protected by the First Amendment, by people who had not committed any sort of other crimes. So and there’s still defending the status quo. They might not be doing the COINTELPRO style covert actions. They might just be doing the surveillance, not just surveillance, it’s still very bad. But there’s still acting in defense of the status quo, that’s what the FBI was founded to do.
That’s why J. Edgar Hoover headed up a radical division rounding up people during the Palmer raids. On the date of the Palmer raids was the first anniversary of the Bolshevik revolution. You know, just to make sure it was really on the nose. Radical, so he goes and rounds up people on the anniversary-
Jacqueline Lugm…: Rounds up the radicals.
Chip Gibbons: Yeah, yeah. On the Bolshevik and COINTELPRO, a domestic covert action to just a few years after the Church Committee, they’re spying on the committee in solidarity to people in El Salvador in the run up to the first Gulf war. They go and visit Arab Americans at their homes randomly. There’s a whole bunch of stuff coming out as part of a documentary filmmaker who made a movie called the Don’t Want to be Watched, showing throughout the Clinton years. They were spying on Arab and Muslim neighborhoods in mass surveillance. And then just everything that happens after 9/11, where we know they’re spying on Inspector General’s Reports, spying on Greenpeace, Catholic workers. And then how many stories like this one do we keep seeing? We see FOIA documents show X Group is spied on. So it’s very much the norm, unfortunately.
Jacqueline Lugm…: So Chip, how do us radicals and our radical friends who are watching, how do we respond to this while continuing our activities to challenge the status quo? How do we challenge an intelligence and surveillance apparatus that masks itself as a law enforcement agency? That really exists to thwart radical freedom movements in this country? How do we challenge this? What do we do?
Chip Gibbons: Yeah, sure. So I think it’s important we don’t let the FBI scare us into silence, right? We should never give up our voice to the FBI. That’s what they would like. But we also should be aware that the FBI is probably watching. We should be aware that they send informants in that do bad things or try to get us to agree to do things that are foolish, first of all. But to entrap us basically, [inaudible 00:21:46].
If somebody suggests you do something illegal and foolish, you should, whether or not that person’s an FBI informant or not, kick them out of your life. And I think we should be demanding some congressional action. The FBI or the Bureau of Investigation was created under Theodore Roosevelt while Congress was on a recess. To this day, they have no legislative charter. After the Church Committee, they let the Attorney General make rules for them and as you can imagine, right-wing attorney generals have made those rules less stringent. Of the disturbing thing is that these investigations happen 2004 to 2006, the FBI rules much more stringent than they are now. So right? Like George W Bush’s lame duck attorney general who literally Obama is elected, but not yet president, puts out new FBI guidelines. They don’t allow for the first time since the Church Committee, the FBI, to investigate people, doing so-called assessments without any sort of factual predicate of a crime or national security threat.
So these are investigations that took place under the old standards that required facts. Obviously facts that are not that high of a standard for the FBI, FBI facts, if you will. But nonetheless, why is that allowed? Why didn’t Eric Holder rescind them? Was he too busy? He wasn’t too busy prosecuting Wall Street bankers or Bush era torturers.
Jacqueline Lugm…: He certainly was not.
Chip Gibbons: He’s not doing that. Where is Congress? Congress could at anytime time now put a charter together. After the Central American solidarity investigations, the Senate did a full investigation. They made the General Accountability Office review FBI international terrorism investigations broadly. And a member of Congress proposed a bill repeatedly between 1988 and 1994, I believe, called the FBI First Amendment Protection Act, which would have put some real reforms on it, never passed. Interesting story, when Nancy Pelosi first comes to Congress, she’s a cosponsor of it. Maybe someone should remind her of that. So there’re things that could be done, but they’re not.
Jacqueline Lugm…: So the moral of the story, friends is continue to be radical, continue to fight to uphold and exercise your First Amendment rights. Do not let the FBI bully you into silence and continue to fight for justice and peace. Chip Gibbons, thank you so much for joining me to talk about this ongoing issue with the FBI. We appreciate your work very much.
Chip Gibbons: Thank you for having me back on. It’s always a pleasure to be on The Real News, one of my favorite programs.
Jacqueline Lugm…: Thank you so much. You are one of our favorite, favorite authors and we enjoy and really appreciate the work you do. And we appreciate you for watching. Thank you so much for being a viewer for The Real News Network. This is Jacquelyn Luqman from the Belly of the Beast, Washington D.C.
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therealnews--2020-04-15--This is Why You Watch Us!

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therealnews--2020-04-14--Unconstitutional Power Grab? Baltimore Police Sued Over Spy Plane

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
Jaisal Noor : Welcome to the Real News .
I ’ m Jaisal Noor .
Baltimore ’ s police force has been described as one of the most corrupt in the country , and now local activists are seeking an injunction against its spy plane program .
What ’ s been described as an unconstitutional power grab by authorities who have a long history of surveilling activists , violating constitutional rights and engaging in broad and brazen corruption .
Well , now joining us to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s the co-author of the forthcoming book .
I Got a Monster , The Rise and Fall of America ’ s Most Corrupt Police Squad .
His coauthor is Baynard Woods .
Brandon , you ’ ve been following this issue really closely for years .
Police say spy planes are a tool needed to fight crime , but this latest iteration was approved with little public input and now local activists and the ACLU are suing to stop it .
Talk about why they ’ re concerned .
Brandon : Right @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of this plane really briefly , this surveillance plane , which flies over Baltimore covering about 30 square miles at a time .
It first flew totally in secret in 2016 .
No one knew other than the police .
I don ’ t believe even city council or the state ’ s attorney ’ s office knew , some point the mayor found out about it .
This flew as a test , an illegal secret test , in 2016 , and the idea is that it can capture above ground everything @ @ @ @ @ @ @ rewind and fast forward that footage .
You can zoom in on it , and that could be used as an investigative tool towards solving a crime , especially violent crimes , shootings , non-fatal shootings , car jackings , those kinds of things .
Of course , when this thing , which is created by a military technologist who tried to put it in Dayton , Ohio , and Compton in the past , both of whom said no .
When it was revealed , there was this massive outrage as there @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we weren ’ t told about this thing .
This thing flew throughout the year .
It recorded some protests as well .
It was used to sort of fly over protests on top of all these other things , and the argument at the time was it didn ’ t solve a lot of crimes .
In a previous Real News segment , I talked about how I found out that it captured a police shooting , and the police conveniently ignored that it captured a police shooting .
What it captured @ @ @ @ @ @ @ claimed had happened during the shooting and that didn ’ t come out for a year , so the plane doesn ’ t have a great record of doing much .
Jaisal Noor : Wait , so Brandon , just to emphasize that point , there was evidence that police had basically lied and misled the public about an incident in which they were involved in , and they had the evidence and they covered it up for years .
Brandon : Yeah .
They just ignored it and said it didn ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I say this so confident , because I ’ ve seen the footage .
It shows police lying about the nature of this stop , which ended with a man being shot and the guy survived the shooting .
But he also did about three years for a gun they said they found on him after shooting .
The officers involved in this turned out to be part of this Gun Trace Task Force , a sort of notorious police scandal , dirty cops .
Fast forward , there was after this sort @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , who were frustrated by the launch of this plane in secret , and ACLU addressing it , activist addressing it .
The plane was sort of pushed a few more times in the past few years , including at some point as a deterrent against dirty cops .
People didn ’ t really buy it .
Cut to 2019 last year , we had another sort of a spike in homicides yet again or a spike on top of the spike , and then it was sort of brought up again , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
A lot of sort of white collar business types really pushed it , because I think they can really say to investors and developers , hey , we got this plane .
We have this top tier technology , it ’ s going to stop crime , and it reduces this a concern by rich people about crime in Baltimore .
Then they ’ ll want to invest .
Really , it had this push by investors and developers and sort of liberal foundations , but it was still was debatable .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ a phony poll about it , and then it felt like it died .
Then suddenly at the end of the year , the police had a press conference and were just like , this plane ’ s going up in May .
It ’ s going up , we ’ re announcing it .
This is a pilot program .
We need to test if it works , and conveniently ignore that they already tested in 2016 in secret and it didn ’ t do very much .
People were surprised by @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it sort of again died down as people just pondered what it meant .
The police promised transparency , accountability , all the sort of buzz words , which at least seemed like , hey , they ’ re not flying in secret this time , so that ’ s an improvement .
Then they said they were going to have these series of public events we will come .
Now the limitations of this kind of public events are what they are , because they ’ re held by the police .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ , and they ’ re sort of , the police are determining the storyline at this .
I ’ ve been to enough of them to know , but okay , fair enough , they ’ re at least going to do that .
Then what happens is they have one of these town halls , mid March , right before COVID-19 really put us all inside and about 20 people showed up .
I didn ’ t go to it for that exact reason .
I didn ’ t feel great about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ or 40 people .
This is like March 14th or 17th , something like that .
Then the police were like , okay , the next two meetings will be online , so those were online .
They weren ’ t particularly publicized , and then police were also like , oh , and heads up .
We ’ re trying to really push this thing out even sooner .
All of this quick moving , which it didn ’ t even have the basic accountability that it was supposed to have , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of show how the police and the privately owned plane would… How they ’ d interact and who would have access to the footage , that was not going to be shown until after it was voted .
Council president and mayoral candidate Brandon Scott , who ’ s really been against the plane , leaked the memorandum of understanding , to make sure people had it .
It was a pretty bold thing to do .
All that sort of bubbled in bubble .
It still got passed through the Board of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , and then this ACLU lawsuit dropped .
Their lawsuit just says , so you ’ re saying what they ’ ve been saying for almost four years now .
This thing ’ s fraught .
It ’ s a problem .
It ’ s recording everybody out all the time .
It ’ s an unprecedented form of surveillance , and then it ’ s also signed off by two activists , Erricka Bridgeford of the budgetary Ceasefire movement of the past few years , members of Leaders of Beautiful Struggle , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Son of Nun , who all sort of said , hey look , it ’ s kind of Orwellian technology that we don ’ t trust the police with .
Erricka Bridgeford in particular , who ’ s working towards addressing the homicide rate in non-carceral ways , was basically like this is a massive waste of money .
There ’ s so many better , smarter things to invest money into if you want to stop homicides than a spy plane .
Jaisal Noor : It ’ s crazy because Baltimore spends @ @ @ @ @ @ @ already on policing , and that ’ s clearly not worked .
You have Ceasefire , you mentioned Erricka Bridgeford , and that is statistically shown to drop homicide , something like 20 , 30 % over the course of a weekend or even longer than that , and also the concerns about the fact that this is a totally… Scandal after scandal , the corruption , the surveilling of activists and just the lawless behavior of the Baltimore Police Department , which you have a book coming out about that has a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ fact that this police force is not actually accountable to the people .
It ’ s still a state agency , which allows them to not have many checks and balances on their power from the public .
Brandon : Yeah .
In Baltimore , we have a very strange thing with us .
The Baltimore Police are a state run agency , so city government actually has very little control .
A couple of years it was a city council meeting about the surveillance plane , and city council did it cause @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Councilman Brandon Scott , Councilman Ryan Dorsey , a couple of other people were really just being like , this is just a big show because we ’ ll have this meeting because you ’ ve asked us to do it .
We ’ ll discuss this thing , but we ’ ve actually no control .
We can ’ t vote for or against it .
It ’ s entirely up to the commissioner and the mayor , who really only answered his state .
We have a Republican governor who ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Baltimore every time there ’ s a shooting .
It ’ s pretty much that the deck was stacked , so this ACLU lawsuit has really sort of undercut at the last moment for this thing to go through .
I believe that right now that until there ’ s a hearing later in April about the plane , it ’ s at sort of at a stand still , which maybe will at least give the people behind it , if I ’ m being very generous and good faith , a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ just stress that like even if you put aside all of one ’ s concerns about the plane , it ’ s just amazing how allergic to accountability and transparency the city is , this department is , and seemingly the people involved with this plane are , that they have this plane up there , and what you have to worry about to record everybody .
But every single element of it is just been messed up or bundled or done in bad faith , and sort of ceasing to have even @ @ @ @ @ @ @ pony show kind of town hall meetings .
Then saying , oh , we can ’ t have them cause a COVID-19 .
We ’ ll still push it all through , is really disheartening .
I expected a little better out of the police actually .
Jaisal Noor : That ’ s saying a lot , so Brandon Soderberg , coauthor of the forthcoming book that a lot of people are excited about with Baynard Woods , I Got a Monster , The Rise and Fall of America ’ s Most Corrupt @ @ @ @ @ @ @ dropping around July .
Is that right ?
Jaisal Noor : All right , cool .
Well , we ’ re looking forward to having you both on to talk about that .
Jaisal Noor : Thank you so much , and thank you for joining us at The Real News Network .

The police department may be using the COVID-19 shutdown as cover to launch what an ACLU attorney says would be “the most wide-reaching surveillance dragnet ever employed in an American city.”
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Jaisal Noor: Welcome to the Real News. I’m Jaisal Noor. Baltimore’s police force has been described as one of the most corrupt in the country, and now local activists are seeking an injunction against its spy plane program. What’s been described as an unconstitutional power grab by authorities who have a long history of surveilling activists, violating constitutional rights and engaging in broad and brazen corruption.
Well, now joining us to discuss this is Brendan Soderberg. He’s the co-author of the forthcoming book. I Got a Monster, The Rise and Fall of America’s Most Corrupt Police Squad. His coauthor is Baynard Woods. Brandon, you’ve been following this issue really closely for years. Police say spy planes are a tool needed to fight crime, but this latest iteration was approved with little public input and now local activists and the ACLU are suing to stop it. Talk about why they’re concerned.
Brandon: Right. Without going into the long tale of this plane really briefly, this surveillance plane, which flies over Baltimore covering about 30 square miles at a time. It first flew totally in secret in 2016. No one knew other than the police. I don’t believe even city council or the state’s attorney’s office knew, some point the mayor found out about it.
This flew as a test, an illegal secret test, in 2016, and the idea is that it can capture above ground everything that’s happening. You can rewind and fast forward that footage. You can zoom in on it, and that could be used as an investigative tool towards solving a crime, especially violent crimes, shootings, non-fatal shootings, car jackings, those kinds of things. Of course, when this thing, which is created by a military technologist who tried to put it in Dayton, Ohio, and Compton in the past, both of whom said no.
When it was revealed, there was this massive outrage as there should have been that, hey, we weren’t told about this thing. This thing flew throughout the year. It recorded some protests as well. It was used to sort of fly over protests on top of all these other things, and the argument at the time was it didn’t solve a lot of crimes.
In a previous Real News segment, I talked about how I found out that it captured a police shooting, and the police conveniently ignored that it captured a police shooting. What it captured actually really undid what the police had claimed had happened during the shooting and that didn’t come out for a year, so the plane doesn’t have a great record of doing much.
Jaisal Noor: Wait, so Brandon, just to emphasize that point, there was evidence that police had basically lied and misled the public about an incident in which they were involved in, and they had the evidence and they covered it up for years.
Brandon: Yeah. They just ignored it and said it didn’t show what it showed, and I say this so confident, because I’ve seen the footage. It shows police lying about the nature of this stop, which ended with a man being shot and the guy survived the shooting. But he also did about three years for a gun they said they found on him after shooting. The officers involved in this turned out to be part of this Gun Trace Task Force, a sort of notorious police scandal, dirty cops.
Fast forward, there was after this sort of breach of trust by the public, who were frustrated by the launch of this plane in secret, and ACLU addressing it, activist addressing it. The plane was sort of pushed a few more times in the past few years, including at some point as a deterrent against dirty cops. People didn’t really buy it.
Cut to 2019 last year, we had another sort of a spike in homicides yet again or a spike on top of the spike, and then it was sort of brought up again, hey, we need the spy plane. A lot of sort of white collar business types really pushed it, because I think they can really say to investors and developers, hey, we got this plane. We have this top tier technology, it’s going to stop crime, and it reduces this a concern by rich people about crime in Baltimore. Then they’ll want to invest.
Really, it had this push by investors and developers and sort of liberal foundations, but it was still was debatable. There was a poll that was really a phony poll about it, and then it felt like it died. Then suddenly at the end of the year, the police had a press conference and were just like, this plane’s going up in May. It’s going up, we’re announcing it. This is a pilot program. We need to test if it works, and conveniently ignore that they already tested in 2016 in secret and it didn’t do very much.
People were surprised by this and shocked by this. Then it sort of again died down as people just pondered what it meant. The police promised transparency, accountability, all the sort of buzz words, which at least seemed like, hey, they’re not flying in secret this time, so that’s an improvement. Then they said they were going to have these series of public events we will come.
Now the limitations of this kind of public events are what they are, because they’re held by the police. They’re moderated by the police, and they’re sort of, the police are determining the storyline at this. I’ve been to enough of them to know, but okay, fair enough, they’re at least going to do that.
Then what happens is they have one of these town halls, mid March, right before COVID-19 really put us all inside and about 20 people showed up. I didn’t go to it for that exact reason. I didn’t feel great about being in a room with maybe 30 or 40 people. This is like March 14th or 17th, something like that. Then the police were like, okay, the next two meetings will be online, so those were online. They weren’t particularly publicized, and then police were also like, oh, and heads up. We’re trying to really push this thing out even sooner.
All of this quick moving, which it didn’t even have the basic accountability that it was supposed to have, the memorandum of understanding that would sort of show how the police and the privately owned plane would… How they’d interact and who would have access to the footage, that was not going to be shown until after it was voted.
Council president and mayoral candidate Brandon Scott, who’s really been against the plane, leaked the memorandum of understanding, to make sure people had it. It was a pretty bold thing to do. All that sort of bubbled in bubble. It still got passed through the Board of Estimates. It was going to launch, and then this ACLU lawsuit dropped. Their lawsuit just says, so you’re saying what they’ve been saying for almost four years now. This thing’s fraught. It’s a problem. It’s recording everybody out all the time.
It’s an unprecedented form of surveillance, and then it’s also signed off by two activists, Erricka Bridgeford of the budgetary Ceasefire movement of the past few years, members of Leaders of Beautiful Struggle, and also the a rapper activist, Son of Nun, who all sort of said, hey look, it’s kind of Orwellian technology that we don’t trust the police with.
Erricka Bridgeford in particular, who’s working towards addressing the homicide rate in non-carceral ways, was basically like this is a massive waste of money. There’s so many better, smarter things to invest money into if you want to stop homicides than a spy plane.
Jaisal Noor: It’s crazy because Baltimore spends more per capita than any large city already on policing, and that’s clearly not worked. You have Ceasefire, you mentioned Erricka Bridgeford, and that is statistically shown to drop homicide, something like 20, 30% over the course of a weekend or even longer than that, and also the concerns about the fact that this is a totally…
Scandal after scandal, the corruption, the surveilling of activists and just the lawless behavior of the Baltimore Police Department, which you have a book coming out about that has a lot of people concerned, and the fact that this police force is not actually accountable to the people. It’s still a state agency, which allows them to not have many checks and balances on their power from the public.
Brandon: Yeah. In Baltimore, we have a very strange thing with us. The Baltimore Police are a state run agency, so city government actually has very little control. A couple of years it was a city council meeting about the surveillance plane, and city council did it cause it was requested. But again, Councilman Brandon Scott, Councilman Ryan Dorsey, a couple of other people were really just being like, this is just a big show because we’ll have this meeting because you’ve asked us to do it. We’ll discuss this thing, but we’ve actually no control.
We can’t vote for or against it. It’s entirely up to the commissioner and the mayor, who really only answered his state. We have a Republican governor who’s threatened to bring the feds into Baltimore every time there’s a shooting. It’s pretty much that the deck was stacked, so this ACLU lawsuit has really sort of undercut at the last moment for this thing to go through.
I believe that right now that until there’s a hearing later in April about the plane, it’s at sort of at a stand still, which maybe will at least give the people behind it, if I’m being very generous and good faith, a moment to reconsider the launch.
I just stress that like even if you put aside all of one’s concerns about the plane, it’s just amazing how allergic to accountability and transparency the city is, this department is, and seemingly the people involved with this plane are, that they have this plane up there, and what you have to worry about to record everybody.
But every single element of it is just been messed up or bundled or done in bad faith, and sort of ceasing to have even these basic, pretty much dog and pony show kind of town hall meetings. Then saying, oh, we can’t have them cause a COVID-19. We’ll still push it all through, is really disheartening. I expected a little better out of the police actually.
Jaisal Noor: That’s saying a lot, so Brandon Soderberg, coauthor of the forthcoming book that a lot of people are excited about with Baynard Woods, I Got a Monster, The Rise and Fall of America’s Most Corrupt Police Squad, and that’s dropping around July. Is that right?
Brandon: July 21st.
Jaisal Noor: All right, cool. Well, we’re looking forward to having you both on to talk about that.
Brandon: Great.
Jaisal Noor: Thank you so much, and thank you for joining us at The Real News Network.
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therealnews--2020-04-14--Stir Crazy! Episode #13: What Hath Corporate Media Wrought!