therealnews--2020-05-18--COVID-19 Exposes The Generational Injustices That Demand Reparations

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
Jacqueline Luqm… : This is Jacqueline Luqman with The Real News Network .
If we ’ re paying attention , we ’ re seeing very clearly the systemic issues that have subjected Black Americans to centuries of economic , social and political oppression resulting in segregated , underserved , environmentally dangerous and heavily overly policed communities across the country .
And even when we live in so-called nicer neighborhoods , the specter of centuries of racism show up in our children ’ s schools .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ to those of others and the interest rates we pay for our mortgages .
And the rates we pay for our insurance and the quality of healthcare we receive even if we have good insurance .
The inequality that was the virus before the coronavirus is being laid bare now , but my question is what are we going to do about it ?
We ’ re here to talk about one of the things that has long been advocated to remedy this systemic inequality is Kamm Howard .
Kamm is a commissioner @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and national male co-chair of the National Coalition for Blacks for Reparations in America .
Kamm , thank you so much for joining me today .
Kamm Howard : Thank you so much for having me .
It ’ s a pleasure .
Jacqueline Luqm… : So Kamm , if people hadn ’ t guessed by now , one of the things that black people have been advocating for to address these longstanding issues of racial inequality that we endure is reparations .
So , while we ’ re seeing the disparate impact @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ re having conversations again about the inequality practically ground into the foundation of the country , but for people who would all see or understand what we ’ re talking about , why are black people in particular , poor and working class black people dying insignificant numbers from this virus right now ?
And what is the connection to systemic racism to that ?
Kamm Howard : So what we ’ re hearing from most reports is that most people who are dying are those who have existing health conditions .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ or heart conditions or lung disease , asthma , hypertension , high blood pressure , these so-called chronic diseases that are rapid in our community .
And so COVID-19 like any virus , it exploits those who are weak .
Well , weak immune system .
So , the science is showing that those who have compromised immune systems or chronic illnesses are succumbing to the COVID-19 virus pandemic , and particularly in the area of death .
And what we see having looked at , examined our health conditions for many years @ @ @ @ @ @ @ health status of the black community , chronic diseases in the black community is from the longstanding racism that we suffered in this country .
But what ’ s so important right now is that science is backing this up .
There is two levels of science , one called transgenerational transmission of trauma .
It ’ s where historical trauma has been… A group of people have been traumatized .
It ’ s not just an individual , but a group of people have been traumatized from one event and then after @ @ @ @ @ @ @ find the legacy of that trauma in generations to come , our future generations .
That ’ s why it ’ s called transgenerational because it ’ s across generations .
And so we see that in our community , there has been not just one episode of trauma , but there has been 400 years of ongoing trauma in our community .
And so science has shown us that when you have this transgenerational transmission of trauma , weakened immune systems are a result .
And if you have a weakened immune @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have higher rates of disease because the immune system has been weakened .
Also , it shows there ’ s going to be more mental illnesses in the community as a result of this transgenerational transmission of trauma .
So , that ’ s one branch to the science and then there is another branch in the science , that ’ s called transgenerational epigenetic inheritance or transgenerational epigenetic injury .
And what this is again , transgenerational , it is something that happens across generation , but if you have this historical @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that historical trauma can damage or alter or modify the genes in the people and those altered genes are being transmitted transgenerationally to future generations .
And again , those altered genes tell the gene to express itself as illness or to express itself as an auto immune disease , that way your body attacks itself or where your body is supposed to kick in and prevent things from happening and it doesn ’ t happen .
And so again , you see these very , very high rates of chronic disease in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ enslavement , as a result of the Jim Crow , the lynching , as a result of the ongoing police terror .
Every time you look in the news and see one of our brothers or sisters abused by the police , what you ’ re doing is adding onto the existing trauma and you trigger the damaged DNA to cause these illnesses and a weakened immune system , et cetera .
So , it ’ s ongoing .
And so , the COVID pandemic is putting a highlight on the bad health @ @ @ @ @ @ @ bad health conditions are a direct result of the atrocities that have been committed against us for 400 years , from which reparations I do .
Jacqueline Luqm… : So , I mean , the question comes to mind now because I ’ m listening to the voices of people who I ’ ve tried to have this conversation with and I ’ m listening to their rebuttals .
Well , this sound like lifestyle changes .
If people would just eat right and exercise , then they would be healthy and they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ issues .
What ’ s your response to people who believe that the chronic health issues that many in the black community face is not a result of transgenerational trauma , but it ’ s actually result of poor lifestyle choices as the surgeon general of the United States alluded to a few weeks ago ?
Kamm Howard : So , what we understand again about this science and this is a new science , about 20 , 25 years old .
So a lot of people , even the surgeon general has @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have no idea of this science of transgenerational genetics .
You might find one in a thousand that may have heard of it .
So it ’ s not something that , the majority of healthcare practitioners are going to be aware of because it ’ s a new science .
Well , one of the things we found out , this science has also told us in the area of diet , if you shift the people from where they had lived and they ate a particular diet , you take them @ @ @ @ @ @ @ case of a famine and people have to move to another society or in case of a war , you have these refugees , they take them to another society .
What science found also is that this also can have a transgenerational epigenetic effect on the genes , which again is transferred generationally .
So , we were removed from the African continent .
We had our own diet prior to being removed from the African continent .
We were brought here , we were fed primarily corn meal in the form @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and bad fats .
We ’ ve given chunk of fat and then we tried to mitigate this bad diet by putting some type of protein in our system .
Ancestors were genius and they created… No , they took the pig tails and the pig ears and the pig intestines and the pig feet and they created a supplement to this poor diet that they were getting , which had no protein .
And so that diet , we have to understand that for 246 years , we existed on a deficient @ @ @ @ @ @ @ vitamins or minerals in the vegetation that we were fed , poor protein and high concentrations of fats for 246 years .
And 100 years after that , we began to put a lot of vegetables into our diet , but we still had that history of those poor fats and poor protein .
And down today , you see that because of the food deserts , we have less access to vegetables .
And so now we only have this one carbohydrate , in the past it was corn , now it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ now this mix of chicken and the fish and all these other fast food items in our community because of the poor food desert situation .
But even still the DNA was damaged from the 246 years of enslavement and that poor diet and so that is the foundation of the likelihood for these chronic diseases to take place .
When we talk about cultural habits and the way we eat , well , we have to look at the likelihood that we can get fresh fruits and vegetables in our community as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it ’ s cultural , but the cultural is based on the crimes that were committed against us for 246 years of enslavement , 100 years of Jim Crow segregation and the ongoing crimes that are still being committed against us .
So , it still has a scientific basis of damaged DNA , modified genetical , which again , produces a weakened immune system and the likelihood of these diseases to occur .
Jacqueline Luqm… : I think that is absolutely fascinating because I ’ m thinking of traditional African diets , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ kinds of foods , yams and some type of greens- Kamm Howard : That is right .
Jacqueline Luqm… : … .
And meat is present in African diets .
However , they were different quality , a better quality of food , there were not as many preservatives , not as much salt and so we had to use what was given to us- Kamm Howard : That is right .
Jacqueline Luqm… : … In a culture that was manufactured for us in this country that we brought some things that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ from the motherland- Kamm Howard : That is right .
Jacqueline Luqm… : … But we didn ’ t have access to everything .
So , we had to make do with what we had and centuries later , and now we ’ re looking at not just the manufactured culture around food that was not good for us , that we did the best that we could with- Jacqueline Luqm… : … But now we ’ re looking at policy dictating still what food we have access to .
And I think @ @ @ @ @ @ @ throughout history that we need to be very clear and connecting .
So , I appreciate that explanation , but Kamm , these are issues that have been raised time and time again , only to be met with not just scorn and ridicule from your basic American who hears about it , but also it to be met with some kind of piecemeal or completely insignificant policy that doesn ’ t address these issues .
And then people will incorrectly claim that some of the policies and programs that have been implemented @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are actually reparations .
So , we shouldn ’ t be asking for anything else .
So , can you tackle why those claims are misguided and honestly flat out untrue , especially now as we are in the middle of… We ’ re not even in the middle of this crisis , we are reaching the first peak of this crisis with coronavirus .
Kamm Howard : So first of all , all those social programs for this entire society weren ’ t designed to address the harms committed against us as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ lift… They were were designed to make things better for the American population who was going through certain crises , whether there was the depression or whether there ’ s other things that they were going through .
So , it ’ s always been a disproportionate effect on people of African descent , even on neutral public policy , we always benefit much less on mutual policy and those who need it less benefit more .
And so we understand that the only thing that would remedy the wide range of harms @ @ @ @ @ @ @ or resources to our community .
When you look at the health status and most people are focusing on the health , we are different than everybody in this country .
No one has been through the atrocities that we went through and had the genetic effect on our being as we have .
The way the science really originally came out , they were trying to understand how did grandchildren of Jewish Holocaust survivors , why did they have a higher degree of lifestyle illnesses , heart attacks , strokes , hypertension @ @ @ @ @ @ @ whose grandparents did not go through the Holocaust .
Jewish peer group , some of their grandparents went through the Holocaust , some of them didn ’ t .
Those whose grandparents went through the Holocaust , they had high rates of chronic illnesses .
And they found out that it was because of the trauma their grandparents experienced during the Holocaust , was transferred generationally down to the third generation who they were measuring now and saw that it was because of that trauma , part of their genes were switched on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ diseases .
So , if they went through six years of trauma , we went through 400 years of trauma , then we have to say that the reason we are in the position that we are in , not only health , but economically , socially and otherwise is because of our specific history .
And the only thing that can address all of that is reparations .
Jacqueline Luqm… : So speaking about the issues that we face , that are being uncovered now by corona virus , not as if @ @ @ @ @ @ @ but it ’ s kind of hard to ignore them now- Kamm Howard : Yes , you are right .
Jacqueline Luqm… : What are the specific restitutional remedies that are being suggested to address these issues ?
And I have to admit Kamm , that I ’ m using the term restitution intentionally- Kamm Howard : Yes , you are right .
Jacqueline Luqm… : … Because we are talking about a repayment for injustice , not just the R word that people don ’ t want to use .
So , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are being proposed in this moment ?
Kamm Howard : Well , there are several , the National African American Reparations Commission has a 10 point reparations platform that is patterned out , the NAARC 10 point reparations platform .
It deals with land , it deals with repatriation , it deals with compensation .
It deals with restitution as you stated , it deals with economic development , it deals with rehabilitation and psychological development and treatment .
It deals with apologies and markers and monuments .
It ’ s a wide @ @ @ @ @ @ @ re looking at , the right away , just psychological and physical health initiatives that we ’ re looking at , but in the area of this COVID , in this transgeneration epigenetic injury that we ’ ve suffered from because this science is so new and we don ’ t have the answers , one of the things that we ’ ve put in the H.R .
40 legislation was that we develop some type of research Institute that look at our situation because we are different than any other people on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Whether we in America , whether we are in the Caribbean , whether we in South America , we in a horrific 400 year period , 500 year period in some cases , it has damaged us .
It does damage this physically .
And we need to understand how much we were damaged and how we can mitigate it .
Science is saying , they are generally saying they haven ’ t did the studies on us and they are doing them on mice and in the laboratory , but science @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ways that you may be able to mitigate it .
And we are talking about mitigation , we are talking about neutralizing the effect , reversing the effect or minimizing reversing in neutralizing .
How do we minimize the effect that the DNA damage ?
How do we neutralize it completely and how do we reverse it ?
Those are the three things that we want to do .
And we have to have research institutions , hundreds of millions of dollars to do this research , this is very expensive research , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ neutralize , minimize or reverse the damage to our DNA .
Now science is saying there ’ s possibly three ways in which you can do that .
One is new diet .
We had a survival diet during enslavement , that ’ s why we put together those delicacies out of the pig and we survived off that .
And we are here because of the genius of our ancestors who survived off that diet .
However , we need a new survival diet as a people .
And what that is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ broadcast it , we have to be able to teacher it , we have to train youth how to prepare meals and this diet , because we need a new survival diet .
Nutrition is another way .
There are certain vitamins that we know we need .
And just like they had this government cheese program in the 70 ’ s and 80 ’ s where the government gave out all this cheese , the government needs to give black people , vitamins , new vitamin C , new vitamin D. We @ @ @ @ @ @ @ vitamins that will address our immune system and that will retard and minimize… And a B complex .
In my study , they know that a B complex in these mice reverse the injury .
And so these are things that the government should do right now , especially in the era of this COVID .
And also lifestyle , meditation , sleep .
So meditation and sleep are really good ways in which we can begin to deflect the amount of stress that we would see by just being black in this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are the types of things that we have to begin to teach that if we want to not only succumb to the COVID pandemic , but also reverse the chronic diseases that are in our community .
We need this type of research , we need this type of education , we need this type of implementation of nutrient and dietary and lifestyle education in our community .
And that ’ s really what we ’ re pushing .
Jacqueline Luqm… : And certainly because we ’ re talking about conditions that were @ @ @ @ @ @ @ these are not decisions that we made for ourselves .
The decisions to create environments through which we could not access anything better .
These were decisions that were made by policymakers and much of the American public- Jacqueline Luqm… : … That went along with it .
These are remedies that the same entities should be responsible for implementing to address these issues .
So , that ’ s a key point because I know someone is going to be watching this , Kamm saying , “ Why can ’ t you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ vitamins ?
” No , we ’ re talking about a restitution that needs to be directed toward us .
Kamm Howard : Yeah .
And that ’ s a good thing , you mentioned where restitution costs , I mean , it nationally means how do you return the people back the way they would have been and not you injured them in the first place .
So how do we turn our health back to us .
so these are the types of things that they must do .
And so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ university has the human genome center , hundreds of millions , tens of million dollars should be going there .
Meharry Medical College and other black medical school has a center for health disparity research center , have tens of millions of dollars should be going there right now .
And for them to give us some answers to at least accumulate what ’ s already out there , the science is already out there and put it in a form that we can digest and begin to benefit from .
But our @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in that direction and so we have to thank you for giving us this opportunity so we can share that , but this is what they must be doing .
Jacqueline Luqm… : Absolutely .
I think this is incredibly important because we think traditionally , and I ’ m certainly guilty of this myself , we think of reparations as the way we have been talking about reparations for the past 100 years since we ’ ve been talking about reparations , honestly , since we ’ ve been here .
So @ @ @ @ @ @ @ because now this is a new dynamic in the discussion , but it ’ s not a new issue .
It is a problem that we have endured right along with everything else .
But Kamm , I want to ask you this last question , because you did bring up the international connection that people of African descent have , whether we are here in the United States or whether we are anywhere else in the world , if we are not in Africa , we ’ re somewhere else in the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ largely not entirely- Jacqueline Luqm… : … But largely .
And I ’ m wondering what do we do about people who want to put African descended people in America against Africans throughout the diaspora and against immigrants and native Americans who have endured oppression as well , but a different kind of oppression .
Well , how do we have these kinds of conversations about a restorative justice for an oppressed people , with people who want to hit those groups of oppressed people against each other in a misguided belief that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ America are going to get our reparations ?
Kamm Howard : Well , we say it ’ s bad thinking , totally erroneous thinking and as an action as well .
We have been victimized because we are African .
Not because we in this country… And this country , one of the things I share all the time is that when we got off those slave ships , our families were broken up .
Some of them were broken up on the continent , some of them were broken up when they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ went to central America , South American islands , some stayed here , some went into Canada .
We don ’ t know who ’ s our brothers and sisters , literally what bloodline we have .
That ’ s one the injuries that we suffer from , we can ’ t trace who our brothers and sisters are .
And so we have brothers and sisters in Jamaica and Caribbean that if we trace our DNA , they go back to the same village .
We are all family .
And we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we all are fighting for the same type of remedy that will heal us all .
In Jamaica for instance , they have a Centre for Reparation Research , only one in the world .
They are doing fantastic research .
What they found out is that some hypertension medication that works for whites and worked for continental Africans don ’ t work on us because of the genetic modification- Kamm Howard : … That we suffer .
And so they ’ re trying to get pharmaceutical companies to tweak those drugs so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ us who have been injured in the tragic line of slave trade .
If they do that , that medication would benefit all people of African descent .
Black folks here in America , if they had found those pharmaceutical companies are you able to do that , and so they won ’ t be taking two or three medications for hypertension .
It would only to be taken one .
So we see that this is all one struggle , one global fight for African people to be respected and to be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ crimes that the European world , it wasn ’ t America only , but the European world curated on African people .
And so to divide it up is erroneous , it ’ s counterproductive , it plays into the hands of those who are against reparations in its entirety , in the first place .
So we are totally against that .
We welcome the brothers and sisters into the reparations movement , but they are come in with a sense of foundation on the history of what actually has taken place @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Luqm… : So now that people have a better understanding , hopefully after this segment of reparations and the need for reparations , especially as we are in this moment , dealing COVID-19 , how do people get involved in advocating for restorative justice for people of African descent ?
Kamm Howard : So right now , H.R.40 is a major federal push to be repaired in this country .
There are 126 federal representative co-sponsors on the bill .
Congresswoman Sheila Jackson has done a fantastic job pushing the bill .
She @ @ @ @ @ @ @ brings it out of the judiciary committee to the house floor , vote on the house .
We know we can get it out of judiciary , it is the first time in history that we ’ ve been able to get it to this point , but we still need those other 24 co-sponsors , so if you have a congress person , Democrat , black , white , Asian or Hispanic , who is not signed on , then that ’ s your job to get that person signed on , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this forward .
There ’ s a lot of local reparations actions going forward as well and so work with your local congressperson , your local state rep or stay senator or your local alderman or mayor and get them also to engage this because what we found out during the civil rights movement , the more local action you have will push federal action .
And so we are pushing local reparations in order to push the federal needle as well .
So , get involved , join N ’ COBRA , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ America , you can go to N ’ COBRA Online , N-C-O-B-R-A online.org and you can sign up , you can register , become a member and we can plug you into a chapter or region within your area so you can get active in the struggle .
Jacqueline Luqm… : Well , Kamm Howard , thank you so much for joining me today to shed some light on this issue that will not go away nor should it until the demands are met .
So , thank you so much for joining @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you so much for having me .
Greatly appreciated .
Jacqueline Luqm… : And thank you for watching .
Remember , be safe , be well , be informed .
This is Jacqueline Luqman with The Real News Network in Washington , D C .

Generations of racism created the conditions that made African Americans more susceptible to COVID-19, and reparations are the way to address that injustice.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Jacqueline Luqm…: This is Jacqueline Luqman with The Real News Network. If we’re paying attention, we’re seeing very clearly the systemic issues that have subjected Black Americans to centuries of economic, social and political oppression resulting in segregated, underserved, environmentally dangerous and heavily overly policed communities across the country. And even when we live in so-called nicer neighborhoods, the specter of centuries of racism show up in our children’s schools. And the value of our homes compared to those of others and the interest rates we pay for our mortgages. And the rates we pay for our insurance and the quality of healthcare we receive even if we have good insurance. The inequality that was the virus before the coronavirus is being laid bare now, but my question is what are we going to do about it? We’re here to talk about one of the things that has long been advocated to remedy this systemic inequality is Kamm Howard. Kamm is a commissioner at the National African American Reparations Commission and national male co-chair of the National Coalition for Blacks for Reparations in America. Kamm, thank you so much for joining me today.
Kamm Howard: Thank you so much for having me. It’s a pleasure.
Jacqueline Luqm…: So Kamm, if people hadn’t guessed by now, one of the things that black people have been advocating for to address these longstanding issues of racial inequality that we endure is reparations. So, while we’re seeing the disparate impact of COVID-19 on black people, we’re having conversations again about the inequality practically ground into the foundation of the country, but for people who would all see or understand what we’re talking about, why are black people in particular, poor and working class black people dying insignificant numbers from this virus right now? And what is the connection to systemic racism to that?
Kamm Howard: So what we’re hearing from most reports is that most people who are dying are those who have existing health conditions. They may had been suffering from diabetes or heart conditions or lung disease, asthma, hypertension, high blood pressure, these so-called chronic diseases that are rapid in our community. And so COVID-19 like any virus, it exploits those who are weak. Well, weak immune system. So, the science is showing that those who have compromised immune systems or chronic illnesses are succumbing to the COVID-19 virus pandemic, and particularly in the area of death. And what we see having looked at, examined our health conditions for many years and we have always held that the health status of the black community, chronic diseases in the black community is from the longstanding racism that we suffered in this country. But what’s so important right now is that science is backing this up.
There is two levels of science, one called transgenerational transmission of trauma. It’s where historical trauma has been… A group of people have been traumatized. It’s not just an individual, but a group of people have been traumatized from one event and then after that event has ended, you can find the legacy of that trauma in generations to come, our future generations. That’s why it’s called transgenerational because it’s across generations. And so we see that in our community, there has been not just one episode of trauma, but there has been 400 years of ongoing trauma in our community. And so science has shown us that when you have this transgenerational transmission of trauma, weakened immune systems are a result. And if you have a weakened immune system, you’re going to have higher rates of disease because the immune system has been weakened.
Also, it shows there’s going to be more mental illnesses in the community as a result of this transgenerational transmission of trauma. So, that’s one branch to the science and then there is another branch in the science, that’s called transgenerational epigenetic inheritance or transgenerational epigenetic injury. And what this is again, transgenerational, it is something that happens across generation, but if you have this historical trauma that happens to a people, that historical trauma can damage or alter or modify the genes in the people and those altered genes are being transmitted transgenerationally to future generations. And again, those altered genes tell the gene to express itself as illness or to express itself as an auto immune disease, that way your body attacks itself or where your body is supposed to kick in and prevent things from happening and it doesn’t happen. And so again, you see these very, very high rates of chronic disease in our community as a result of the enslavement, as a result of the Jim Crow, the lynching, as a result of the ongoing police terror.
Every time you look in the news and see one of our brothers or sisters abused by the police, what you’re doing is adding onto the existing trauma and you trigger the damaged DNA to cause these illnesses and a weakened immune system, et cetera. So, it’s ongoing. And so, the COVID pandemic is putting a highlight on the bad health conditions of our community. And those bad health conditions are a direct result of the atrocities that have been committed against us for 400 years, from which reparations I do.
Jacqueline Luqm…: So, I mean, the question comes to mind now because I’m listening to the voices of people who I’ve tried to have this conversation with and I’m listening to their rebuttals. Well, this sound like lifestyle changes. If people would just eat right and exercise, then they would be healthy and they wouldn’t have these kinds of issues. What’s your response to people who believe that the chronic health issues that many in the black community face is not a result of transgenerational trauma, but it’s actually result of poor lifestyle choices as the surgeon general of the United States alluded to a few weeks ago?
Kamm Howard: So, what we understand again about this science and this is a new science, about 20, 25 years old. So a lot of people, even the surgeon general has no idea. Most of your doctors have no idea of this science of transgenerational genetics. You might find one in a thousand that may have heard of it. So it’s not something that, the majority of healthcare practitioners are going to be aware of because it’s a new science. Well, one of the things we found out, this science has also told us in the area of diet, if you shift the people from where they had lived and they ate a particular diet, you take them to somewhere else, like in the case of a famine and people have to move to another society or in case of a war, you have these refugees, they take them to another society.
What science found also is that this also can have a transgenerational epigenetic effect on the genes, which again is transferred generationally. So, we were removed from the African continent. We had our own diet prior to being removed from the African continent. We were brought here, we were fed primarily corn meal in the form of grit, some type of meal and bad fats. We’ve given chunk of fat and then we tried to mitigate this bad diet by putting some type of protein in our system. Ancestors were genius and they created… No, they took the pig tails and the pig ears and the pig intestines and the pig feet and they created a supplement to this poor diet that they were getting, which had no protein.
And so that diet, we have to understand that for 246 years, we existed on a deficient diet. Very few nutrients in the vitamins or minerals in the vegetation that we were fed, poor protein and high concentrations of fats for 246 years. And 100 years after that, we began to put a lot of vegetables into our diet, but we still had that history of those poor fats and poor protein.
And down today, you see that because of the food deserts, we have less access to vegetables. And so now we only have this one carbohydrate, in the past it was corn, now it’s French fries or potatoes, now this mix of chicken and the fish and all these other fast food items in our community because of the poor food desert situation. But even still the DNA was damaged from the 246 years of enslavement and that poor diet and so that is the foundation of the likelihood for these chronic diseases to take place. When we talk about cultural habits and the way we eat, well, we have to look at the likelihood that we can get fresh fruits and vegetables in our community as well. So, you can say it’s cultural, but the cultural is based on the crimes that were committed against us for 246 years of enslavement, 100 years of Jim Crow segregation and the ongoing crimes that are still being committed against us. So, it still has a scientific basis of damaged DNA, modified genetical, which again, produces a weakened immune system and the likelihood of these diseases to occur.
Jacqueline Luqm…: I think that is absolutely fascinating because I’m thinking of traditional African diets, which are usually rich in the same kinds of foods, yams and some type of greens-
Kamm Howard: That is right.
Jacqueline Luqm…: …. And meat is present in African diets. However, they were different quality, a better quality of food, there were not as many preservatives, not as much salt and so we had to use what was given to us-
Kamm Howard: That is right.
Jacqueline Luqm…: … In a culture that was manufactured for us in this country that we brought some things that we remembered, that our ancestors remembered from the motherland-
Kamm Howard: That is right.
Jacqueline Luqm…: … But we didn’t have access to everything. So, we had to make do with what we had and centuries later, and now we’re looking at not just the manufactured culture around food that was not good for us, that we did the best that we could with-
Kamm Howard: That is true.
Jacqueline Luqm…: … But now we’re looking at policy dictating still what food we have access to. And I think that’s a very fascinating line throughout history that we need to be very clear and connecting. So, I appreciate that explanation, but Kamm, these are issues that have been raised time and time again, only to be met with not just scorn and ridicule from your basic American who hears about it, but also it to be met with some kind of piecemeal or completely insignificant policy that doesn’t address these issues. And then people will incorrectly claim that some of the policies and programs that have been implemented like welfare and the Affordable Care Act are actually reparations. So, we shouldn’t be asking for anything else. So, can you tackle why those claims are misguided and honestly flat out untrue, especially now as we are in the middle of… We’re not even in the middle of this crisis, we are reaching the first peak of this crisis with coronavirus.
Kamm Howard: So first of all, all those social programs for this entire society weren’t designed to address the harms committed against us as a people, they were designed to lift… They were were designed to make things better for the American population who was going through certain crises, whether there was the depression or whether there’s other things that they were going through. So, it’s always been a disproportionate effect on people of African descent, even on neutral public policy, we always benefit much less on mutual policy and those who need it less benefit more. And so we understand that the only thing that would remedy the wide range of harms that we have is specifically targeted remedy or resources to our community. When you look at the health status and most people are focusing on the health, we are different than everybody in this country.
No one has been through the atrocities that we went through and had the genetic effect on our being as we have. The way the science really originally came out, they were trying to understand how did grandchildren of Jewish Holocaust survivors, why did they have a higher degree of lifestyle illnesses, heart attacks, strokes, hypertension, et cetera, than their peers whose grandparents did not go through the Holocaust. Jewish peer group, some of their grandparents went through the Holocaust, some of them didn’t. Those whose grandparents went through the Holocaust, they had high rates of chronic illnesses.
And they found out that it was because of the trauma their grandparents experienced during the Holocaust, was transferred generationally down to the third generation who they were measuring now and saw that it was because of that trauma, part of their genes were switched on and off to lead to these chronic diseases. So, if they went through six years of trauma, we went through 400 years of trauma, then we have to say that the reason we are in the position that we are in, not only health, but economically, socially and otherwise is because of our specific history. And the only thing that can address all of that is reparations.
Jacqueline Luqm…: So speaking about the issues that we face, that are being uncovered now by corona virus, not as if they weren’t already there, but it’s kind of hard to ignore them now-
Kamm Howard: Yes, you are right.
Jacqueline Luqm…: What are the specific restitutional remedies that are being suggested to address these issues? And I have to admit Kamm, that I’m using the term restitution intentionally-
Kamm Howard: Yes, you are right.
Jacqueline Luqm…: … Because we are talking about a repayment for injustice, not just the R word that people don’t want to use. So, what are the specific restitutional remedies that are being proposed in this moment?
Kamm Howard: Well, there are several, the National African American Reparations Commission has a 10 point reparations platform that is patterned out, the NAARC 10 point reparations platform. It deals with land, it deals with repatriation, it deals with compensation. It deals with restitution as you stated, it deals with economic development, it deals with rehabilitation and psychological development and treatment. It deals with apologies and markers and monuments. It’s a wide range of economic aspects that we’re looking at, the right away, just psychological and physical health initiatives that we’re looking at, but in the area of this COVID, in this transgeneration epigenetic injury that we’ve suffered from because this science is so new and we don’t have the answers, one of the things that we’ve put in the H.R. 40 legislation was that we develop some type of research Institute that look at our situation because we are different than any other people on the planet, people of African descent. Whether we in America, whether we are in the Caribbean, whether we in South America, we in a horrific 400 year period, 500 year period in some cases, it has damaged us. It does damage this physically.
And we need to understand how much we were damaged and how we can mitigate it. Science is saying, they are generally saying they haven’t did the studies on us and they are doing them on mice and in the laboratory, but science is saying there’s three primary ways that you may be able to mitigate it. And we are talking about mitigation, we are talking about neutralizing the effect, reversing the effect or minimizing reversing in neutralizing. How do we minimize the effect that the DNA damage? How do we neutralize it completely and how do we reverse it? Those are the three things that we want to do. And we have to have research institutions, hundreds of millions of dollars to do this research, this is very expensive research, to understand how we can mitigate, neutralize, minimize or reverse the damage to our DNA.
Now science is saying there’s possibly three ways in which you can do that. One is new diet. We had a survival diet during enslavement, that’s why we put together those delicacies out of the pig and we survived off that. And we are here because of the genius of our ancestors who survived off that diet. However, we need a new survival diet as a people. And what that is, we have to be able to broadcast it, we have to be able to teacher it, we have to train youth how to prepare meals and this diet, because we need a new survival diet. Nutrition is another way. There are certain vitamins that we know we need. And just like they had this government cheese program in the 70’s and 80’s where the government gave out all this cheese, the government needs to give black people, vitamins, new vitamin C, new vitamin D.
We need NAC, we need these main vitamins that will address our immune system and that will retard and minimize… And a B complex. In my study, they know that a B complex in these mice reverse the injury. And so these are things that the government should do right now, especially in the era of this COVID. And also lifestyle, meditation, sleep. So meditation and sleep are really good ways in which we can begin to deflect the amount of stress that we would see by just being black in this country-
Jacqueline Luqm…: Right.
Kamm Howard: … So these are the types of things that we have to begin to teach that if we want to not only succumb to the COVID pandemic, but also reverse the chronic diseases that are in our community. We need this type of research, we need this type of education, we need this type of implementation of nutrient and dietary and lifestyle education in our community. And that’s really what we’re pushing.
Jacqueline Luqm…: And certainly because we’re talking about conditions that were imposed upon us for 400 years, these are not decisions that we made for ourselves. The decisions to create environments through which we could not access anything better. These were decisions that were made by policymakers and much of the American public-
Kamm Howard: Exactly.
Jacqueline Luqm…: … That went along with it. These are remedies that the same entities should be responsible for implementing to address these issues. So, that’s a key point because I know someone is going to be watching this, Kamm saying, “Why can’t you just go to CVS and get some vitamins?” No, we’re talking about a restitution that needs to be directed toward us.
Kamm Howard: Yeah. And that’s a good thing, you mentioned where restitution costs, I mean, it nationally means how do you return the people back the way they would have been and not you injured them in the first place. So how do we turn our health back to us. so these are the types of things that they must do. And so we need the research, have a university has the human genome center, hundreds of millions, tens of million dollars should be going there. Meharry Medical College and other black medical school has a center for health disparity research center, have tens of millions of dollars should be going there right now. And for them to give us some answers to at least accumulate what’s already out there, the science is already out there and put it in a form that we can digest and begin to benefit from. But our law makers, legislators are not looking in that direction and so we have to thank you for giving us this opportunity so we can share that, but this is what they must be doing.
Jacqueline Luqm…: Absolutely. I think this is incredibly important because we think traditionally, and I’m certainly guilty of this myself, we think of reparations as the way we have been talking about reparations for the past 100 years since we’ve been talking about reparations, honestly, since we’ve been here. So this is an important discussion to have because now this is a new dynamic in the discussion, but it’s not a new issue. It is a problem that we have endured right along with everything else. But Kamm, I want to ask you this last question, because you did bring up the international connection that people of African descent have, whether we are here in the United States or whether we are anywhere else in the world, if we are not in Africa, we’re somewhere else in the world because of the slave trade, largely not entirely-
Kamm Howard: Largely.
Jacqueline Luqm…: … But largely. And I’m wondering what do we do about people who want to put African descended people in America against Africans throughout the diaspora and against immigrants and native Americans who have endured oppression as well, but a different kind of oppression. Well, how do we have these kinds of conversations about a restorative justice for an oppressed people, with people who want to hit those groups of oppressed people against each other in a misguided belief that, that’s how we in America are going to get our reparations?
Kamm Howard: Well, we say it’s bad thinking, totally erroneous thinking and as an action as well. We have been victimized because we are African. Not because we in this country… And this country, one of the things I share all the time is that when we got off those slave ships, our families were broken up. Some of them were broken up on the continent, some of them were broken up when they landed here. So some of them went to central America, South American islands, some stayed here, some went into Canada. We don’t know who’s our brothers and sisters, literally what bloodline we have. That’s one the injuries that we suffer from, we can’t trace who our brothers and sisters are. And so we have brothers and sisters in Jamaica and Caribbean that if we trace our DNA, they go back to the same village. We are all family.
And we’ve all been injured and so we all are fighting for the same type of remedy that will heal us all. In Jamaica for instance, they have a Centre for Reparation Research, only one in the world. They are doing fantastic research. What they found out is that some hypertension medication that works for whites and worked for continental Africans don’t work on us because of the genetic modification-
Jacqueline Luqm…: Wow.
Kamm Howard: … That we suffer. And so they’re trying to get pharmaceutical companies to tweak those drugs so that they work equally, even on us who have been injured in the tragic line of slave trade. If they do that, that medication would benefit all people of African descent. Black folks here in America, if they had found those pharmaceutical companies are you able to do that, and so they won’t be taking two or three medications for hypertension. It would only to be taken one.
So we see that this is all one struggle, one global fight for African people to be respected and to be made whole as a result of the crimes that the European world, it wasn’t America only, but the European world curated on African people. And so to divide it up is erroneous, it’s counterproductive, it plays into the hands of those who are against reparations in its entirety, in the first place. So we are totally against that. We welcome the brothers and sisters into the reparations movement, but they are come in with a sense of foundation on the history of what actually has taken place to us as a people.
Jacqueline Luqm…: So now that people have a better understanding, hopefully after this segment of reparations and the need for reparations, especially as we are in this moment, dealing COVID-19, how do people get involved in advocating for restorative justice for people of African descent?
Kamm Howard: So right now, H.R.40 is a major federal push to be repaired in this country. There are 126 federal representative co-sponsors on the bill. Congresswoman Sheila Jackson has done a fantastic job pushing the bill. She wants to get 150 co-sponsors before she brings it out of the judiciary committee to the house floor, vote on the house. We know we can get it out of judiciary, it is the first time in history that we’ve been able to get it to this point, but we still need those other 24 co-sponsors, so if you have a congress person, Democrat, black, white, Asian or Hispanic, who is not signed on, then that’s your job to get that person signed on, no matter where you at to move this forward.
There’s a lot of local reparations actions going forward as well and so work with your local congressperson, your local state rep or stay senator or your local alderman or mayor and get them also to engage this because what we found out during the civil rights movement, the more local action you have will push federal action. And so we are pushing local reparations in order to push the federal needle as well. So, get involved, join N’COBRA, National Coalition of Blacks for Reparations in America, you can go to N’COBRA Online, N-C-O-B-R-A online.org and you can sign up, you can register, become a member and we can plug you into a chapter or region within your area so you can get active in the struggle.
Jacqueline Luqm…: Well, Kamm Howard, thank you so much for joining me today to shed some light on this issue that will not go away nor should it until the demands are met. So, thank you so much for joining me today.
Kamm Howard: Thank you so much for having me. Greatly appreciated.
Jacqueline Luqm…: And thank you for watching. Remember, be safe, be well, be informed. This is Jacqueline Luqman with The Real News Network in Washington, D C.
Studio: Taylor Hebden
Production: Taylor Hebden
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therealnews--2020-05-18--How Democracy Falls In East Europe And The Balkans

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
Marc Steiner : Welcome to The Real News .
I ’ m Marc Steiner .
Great to have you all with this .
The COVID-19 has set off a wave of authoritarian reactions throughout the world .
Some places just need a little nudge , but the consequences could be far reaching and frightening .
Freedom House published a report on the state of democracy in Eastern Europe and the Balkans , stating that the number of democracies in that region is at the lowest @ @ @ @ @ @ @ what Freedom House did not say , or could not as a foundation serving the interests of United States , is that the rise of the right is the result of the failures of neo-liberalism , more specifically neo-liberal capitalism , and as well the authoritarian roots from which many of these governments sprang .
Specifically , Freedom House says that three countries no longer qualify as democracies : Hungary , Montenegro and Serbia .
The report places much of the blame on the rise of authoritarianism or oppression in these countries as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ You also have to remember the populist far right has been whittling away at democratic institutions in this region and around the world for a long time now , long before COVID-19 .
But the pandemic that struck the world clearly is an opportunists moment for the right .
When the Hungarian government ordered a massive reform of the school curriculum , onlookers were horrified that antisemites and Nazi sympathizers were now part of the canon of the Hungarian education system .
Looking beyond Eastern Europe , our guest today , Sonali Kolhatkar @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and Asia Times , looked at India , Israel , China , and other nations that unleashed deeply troubling policies to surveil and control their populations .
While [ inaudible 00:01:34 ] United States seemed to fall apart in the face of COVID .
So let us once again welcome Sonali Kolhatkar .
Good to have you with us , Sonali .
Sonali Kolhatka… : Thank you , Marc .
It ’ s lovely to be with you .
Marc Steiner : Always good to have you here .
Sonali is an award @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of Rising Up With Sonali , a nationally syndicated TV and radio show , and she ’ s a weekly columnist for Truthdig and it ’ s always great to have her here on The Real News .
So let ’ s start with this report itself .
I mean , so as I said earlier , Freedom House , we know is kind of a liberal capitalist institution , very U.S. centric in it ’ s view , defines Venezuela as well as one of the least free countries in the world @ @ @ @ @ @ @ free countries in the world , despite what they do to Palestinian citizens and the occupation .
But when you look at their report , I ’ m curious what you think about what they came up with .
We ’ re starting with the Balkans and Eastern Europe , the methodology they used and how are they define democracy .
I mean , how do you read their report ?
Sonali Kolhatka… : Well , I mean , I ’ m glad that it is being pointed out that countries like Hungary @ @ @ @ @ @ @ devolving from being more democratic to really losing any semblance of what ’ s considered democratic representation or rule in Hungary seems to be the most extreme example where essentially President Orban is ruling by decree and has an indefinite time period where he can do so , but many right-wing governments that have that authoritarian streak have fallen in that direction .
In addition to Serbia and Israel that you mentioned , you see a country like India , which I point out in my article , where Prime Minister Narendra Modi @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a country of more than a billion people for four weeks in a way that was deeply devastating , especially to There ’ ve been a lot of people that have died as a result .
And although that lockdown is now increasing that right-wing authoritarian streak in the Modi government came out full force .
We saw that in several other countries as well .
And then you have countries like the U.K. and to a greater extent , the U.S. and even Sweden , to an extent , where they ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the coronavirus .
When you have a pandemic such as this , it demands an organized , science-based , democratic approach to tackling this crisis because you need public buy-in and public cooperation in the public interest , you have to actually care about the public .
So you have to be a representative democracy .
And the U.K. and the U.S. and Sweden , these countries that were ostensibly democratic , and this is the part that Freedom House didn ’ t touch upon , have sort of absolved themselves of responsibility @ @ @ @ @ @ @ notions of so-called herd immunity , which is something that you want a vaccine to confer , not natural immunity , because otherwise you will just basically kill many , many people .
And I think the U.S. has been the worst example of that , where we ’ ve basically had no organized response to this crisis beyond Trump wanting reelection .
Marc Steiner : It ’ s not funny , but just it ’ s… The absurdity of it makes me laugh sometimes .
And the danger of the absurdity makes @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Winding my way back to your articles , I think they were really , really good pieces that you wrote .
You know , when you look at Greece and Czech Republic , Bulgaria , Romania , that their institutions are deeply under attack .
[ inaudible 00:05:24 ] you talked about Hungry , and they ’ re just almost like sliding very deeply into becoming the fascistic state .
So how do we begin to define the differences why certain places become so openly fascistic about what happened in the face of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to kind of go in ?
Others are more subtle , like in a sense , when you look at Israel and some other places they ’ re saying they ’ re doing this for the good of the population , monitoring people getting on and off buses , using all the technology to kind of interfere with our individual freedoms .
So they ’ re all responding very differently .
I mean , how do you look at this rise of the right and how each place is reacting so definitely in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Kolhatka… : I think one unifying thread through many of these troubling responses is the notion that elites will take advantage of populations in crisis .
You know , Naomi Klein has applied this to capitalism .
She calls Disaster Capitalism or the Shock Doctrine , but you can just as easily apply it to this idea of authoritarianism , that when elites see an opportunity to take advantage of a crisis , they can grab it .
So in the case of Israel , it has grabbed the opportunity to surveil so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ similarly with a country like Hungary , similarly to Serbia , where you could call it disaster authoritarianism , if you will .
And in the United States , you ’ ve seen disaster capitalism much more than disaster authoritarianism .
The rich and elite wealthy Americans have literally made money off of the crisis .
Corporations have made money , publicly traded companies have gotten taxpayer backed loans .
The wealthy have benefited tremendously , not just from the initial tax reform law that Trump and the Republicans put in place , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ then they ’ ve reaped even greater benefits in the economic stimulus packages they have managed to… And they have their sights set on future bills that they hope will decimate the American public even more .
So I think if we look at it from the perspective of elites taking advantage of moments of crisis when vulnerable populations are turning to them for leadership , they will either push towards authoritarianism , a surveillance state , a fascistic authoritarian , a non-representative democracy and , or neo-liberal capitalist ideologies that essentially view @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , then society as a whole is well off .
Our worth is measured by the wealth of richest people in that society .
And then you have other really great examples of countries going other ways and that I point out in my articles , such as New Zealand , such as South Korea , where strong democratic institutions , and science-based approaches to government have shown that you don ’ t have to go down that path of authoritarian or disaster capitalism .
Marc Steiner : So let ’ s look @ @ @ @ @ @ @ mean , so here you have the United States that has a very kind of libertarian streak as part of its philosophical underpinning , whether that ’ s mythology , reality , it ’ s there and people believe it .
So you have these armed men and women storming capitols with guns out , rifles out , and refusing to take part in this and saying , “ you ’ re going after my liberties.
” But then you have other countries , like as you talked about New Zealand and Taiwan @ @ @ @ @ @ @ taking a very different approach .
And these are also longstanding democracies , quote unquote .
And so the paths are very different .
And then you have places like both China and Israel that are really… Their approach is extremely Orwellian for want of a better term in terms of what they ’ re creating .
So , I wonder if you take all of those together , what do you think that portends ?
I mean , where do you think that takes us in the next six months , seven @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ?
Sonali Kolhatka… : Oh , well , that ’ s a really good question .
I ’ m not sure what the authoritarian regimes will likely end up as , but I do know one thing , that when you have to respond in a public health emergency like the one we face , you need public buy-in .
You can not … On the surface , it might seem as though a top down strict , rigid authoritarian government , say like China , can succeed more efficiently at quelling a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ any democratic questioning quarantines and lockdowns and all of that .
However , there ’ s only so much that an authoritarian government can do to keep it citizens in control .
Eventually the human longing for freedom rises up and people pushback and people break curfews and break rules because they won ’ t allow themselves to be pushed too far .
And so you have to public buy-in in a reasonable way .
And that ’ s what countries like Taiwan , as you mentioned , Finland , South Korea and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a much more nuanced approach that will actually work where you have a democratic government that is very transparent about why there ’ s a need to protect public health , what needs to be done in order to protect public health .
Here ’ s all the science , here ’ s the things that we ’ re going to trust because they make sense , and we are all going to do this together .
Here ’ s the financial support that you may need to weather the storm .
And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , really strict .
And we need for all of you to be strict with us because we have this collective good that we ’ re all working towards .
And so it requires a sense of public collective consciousness and actually caring about one ’ s fellow human , which unfortunately , under the Trump regime in the United States , bringing it back home here , we ’ ve seen that idea of collective good be further eroded because this rugged individualism that libertarians and Republicans have pushed for so long @ @ @ @ @ @ @ gone to an extreme .
So I think what these… To answer your question about what may come six months from now , I think the countries that have used authoritarian means to control the virus , that think they have a handle on things right now , are going to see it backfire .
People are going to rise up .
The virus will continue to spread , and it ’ s not going to work in the longterm .
Marc Steiner : I mean , if you think about the differences @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you look at some of the countries that you mentioned , they are social democracies .
They ’ re still capitalist nations , but they ’ re social democracies .
So when COVID hit , the way they were organized , they could organize themselves to kind of confront this pandemic .
Places like New Zealand I ’ m thinking about and Finland and other places .
Taiwan , they could do it that way .
India is its own shambles .
That ’ s what it is .
And , but there @ @ @ @ @ @ @ nationalism that ’ s kind of gripped a large portion of India in some ways is almost more symbolically tied to what ’ s happening in the United States where the capitalists and equities just came surging forth in all this , in terms of watching what communities of color , the Native American communities , in the black communities , people dying at exorbitant rates and getting sick in exonerate rates compared to other communities .
I mean , so the contradictions have really been raised in all of this pandemic .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ when you look here and look around the world in how this might play out , and then you look at China , which has pushed a really stronger authoritarian model , but that may in fact put them in a stronger position as they battle with the United States who controls the world economically .
I mean , this pandemic could really redefine the future .
Sonali Kolhatka… : I think one of the things that this has also pointed out is that the United States ’ own version or vision of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ laid bare .
I mean , the world is basically seeing the U.S. not just missing in action during this crisis , but embarrassing itself on the world stage .
And if the U.S. was shown to be exceptional in anything during this crisis , it is of course in having the worst impact , the highest number of infections , the highest number of deaths , the greatest ineptness , the least amount of testing .
And under president Trump , these forces that are demanding a reopening of businesses because the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ than people ’ s lives , I view them as acts of white supremacy and of white privilege , because we know that black people especially are disproportionately getting infected from , but especially dying from the disease .
White Americans , even if they may catch the disease , are less likely to die from it .
And that ’ s of course because of preexisting health disparities .
You pointed out Native Americans .
We ’ re seeing the third largest in the Navajo nation today .
And so those Americans @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and you can really say white supremacist protest because now many of them have been linked to white supremacist organizations , they are deliberately endangering communities of color through their acts of defiance .
And sadly the Trump government and the U.S. government and local law enforcement will bend over backwards to appease them because that ’ s what we ’ ve always done .
So a thousand white folks can walk in armed to the teeth in a state Capitol and have their wishes met and not face arrest .
So these @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we ’ re probably seeing that… So you pointed out India , you know , the same kinds of… So the Modi government has used the crisis to further his Islamophobic agenda .
Here in the U.S. it ’ s anti-immigrant , anti-people of color , the democratic voters that Trump is so afraid of .
Marc Steiner : So in conclude , I think that , as I said earlier , many of the contradictions that have come to the fore in this pandemic and… How much you think what we ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ change the nature of political struggle here and across… If you look at… I mean , Hungary ’ s Orban clearly they ’ re moving in a completely authoritarian and fictitious direction , chaos reigns in the United States in many ways , India is becoming very oppressive .
I mean , I wonder what this sets up for us , do you think ?
Sonali Kolhatka… : Well , I haven ’ t read too much about this , but just on Monday , I read a very interesting sounding new international @ @ @ @ @ @ @ called Progressive International .
It ’ s being headed by folks like Yanis Varoufakis , former finance minister of Greece , and folks like Arundhati Roy and Naomi Klein and others .
So this crisis definitely represents a huge challenge for the left .
It ’ s hard to use the traditional means of organizing because we can ’ t very well organize a giant march to Washington D.C. Sonali Kolhatka… : We also are not sure if we ’ re going to be able to even vote in this November ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ voting is an act of organizing and activism , which of course it is one tool and ought to be seen as one tool in a multi-pronged approach .
And it really is challenging the left , but there was just a month or two ago , a massive movement that had come together in the United States to demand progressive change under the umbrella of the Bernie Sanders campaign .
And I think that we ’ re going to see a reorienting of these movements .
It ’ s a huge challenge @ @ @ @ @ @ @ can meet it because we have already had experience organizing on the internet and digitally .
There are ways to do it .
I really hope that we ’ re going to change the nature of organizing and find a way to start to claw back some of these rights that we ’ ve lost in some of these… In the United States it ’ s not just rights lost , it ’ s just the most basic tenants of government that have been eroded and whittled away .
And you know how @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with somebody like Joe Biden at the forefront , as the only supposed alternative to Trump , I have no idea , but it ’ s a huge challenge .
It might be the biggest challenge that the left faces , not just in the U.S , but worldwide .
Marc Steiner : So the COVID pandemic has , I think , changed the nature of the human political conversation on the planet .
And it ’ s playing out different ways , depending on the country and how they ’ re approaching @ @ @ @ @ @ @ going to define the political process .
Well , you know , Solani Kolhatkar , it ’ s always , to me , a joy to talk to you .
I mean , you bring a lot of good analysis to us and I appreciate it .
Sonali Kolhatka… : Thank you so much , Marc , for having me on .
Marc Steiner : Do what you do .
And I look forward to many more conversations and we ’ ll be linking to your articles of course when we publish this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for being with us .
Sonali Kolhatka… : I appreciate it .
Thank you , Marc .
Marc Steiner : Thank you very much .
And I ’ m Marc Steiner , here for The Real News Network .
Good to have you all with us , as usual .
And please stay safe , stay healthy , stay in your house .
Take care .

Freedom House says Eastern European and Balkans democracies are in danger. COVID-19 has opened the door to surveillance, and threatens democracies from Hungary to India to Israel.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Marc Steiner: Welcome to The Real News. I’m Marc Steiner. Great to have you all with this. The COVID-19 has set off a wave of authoritarian reactions throughout the world. Some places just need a little nudge, but the consequences could be far reaching and frightening.
Freedom House published a report on the state of democracy in Eastern Europe and the Balkans, stating that the number of democracies in that region is at the lowest in 25 years. Of course, what Freedom House did not say, or could not as a foundation serving the interests of United States, is that the rise of the right is the result of the failures of neo-liberalism, more specifically neo-liberal capitalism, and as well the authoritarian roots from which many of these governments sprang. Specifically, Freedom House says that three countries no longer qualify as democracies: Hungary, Montenegro and Serbia.
The report places much of the blame on the rise of authoritarianism or oppression in these countries as a reaction to the coronavirus pandemic. You also have to remember the populist far right has been whittling away at democratic institutions in this region and around the world for a long time now, long before COVID-19. But the pandemic that struck the world clearly is an opportunists moment for the right. When the Hungarian government ordered a massive reform of the school curriculum, onlookers were horrified that antisemites and Nazi sympathizers were now part of the canon of the Hungarian education system.
Looking beyond Eastern Europe, our guest today, Sonali Kolhatkar, outlined in her articles for CounterPunch and Asia Times, looked at India, Israel, China, and other nations that unleashed deeply troubling policies to surveil and control their populations. While [inaudible 00:01:34] United States seemed to fall apart in the face of COVID. So let us once again welcome Sonali Kolhatkar. Good to have you with us, Sonali.
Sonali Kolhatka…: Thank you, Marc. It’s lovely to be with you.
Marc Steiner: Always good to have you here. Sonali is an award winning journalist, host and executive producer of Rising Up With Sonali, a nationally syndicated TV and radio show, and she’s a weekly columnist for Truthdig and it’s always great to have her here on The Real News. So let’s start with this report itself. I mean, so as I said earlier, Freedom House, we know is kind of a liberal capitalist institution, very U.S. centric in it’s view, defines Venezuela as well as one of the least free countries in the world and Israel as one of the greatest free countries in the world, despite what they do to Palestinian citizens and the occupation. But when you look at their report, I’m curious what you think about what they came up with. We’re starting with the Balkans and Eastern Europe, the methodology they used and how are they define democracy. I mean, how do you read their report?
Sonali Kolhatka…: Well, I mean, I’m glad that it is being pointed out that countries like Hungary, especially under Viktor Orban, are devolving from being more democratic to really losing any semblance of what’s considered democratic representation or rule in Hungary seems to be the most extreme example where essentially President Orban is ruling by decree and has an indefinite time period where he can do so, but many right-wing governments that have that authoritarian streak have fallen in that direction. In addition to Serbia and Israel that you mentioned, you see a country like India, which I point out in my article, where Prime Minister Narendra Modi with no advanced notice just locked down a country of more than a billion people for four weeks in a way that was deeply devastating, especially to
India’s poor and minority and internally displaced population.
There’ve been a lot of people that have died as a result. And although that lockdown is now increasing that right-wing authoritarian streak in the Modi government came out full force. We saw that in several other countries as well.
And then you have countries like the U.K. and to a greater extent, the U.S. and even Sweden, to an extent, where they’ve just taken a blase approach to the coronavirus. When you have a pandemic such as this, it demands an organized, science-based, democratic approach to tackling this crisis because you need public buy-in and public cooperation in the public interest, you have to actually care about the public. So you have to be a representative democracy. And the U.K. and the U.S. and Sweden, these countries that were ostensibly democratic, and this is the part that Freedom House didn’t touch upon, have sort of absolved themselves of responsibility to varying degrees, have adopted unscientific notions of so-called herd immunity, which is something that you want a vaccine to confer, not natural immunity, because otherwise you will just basically kill many, many people. And I think the U.S. has been the worst example of that, where we’ve basically had no organized response to this crisis beyond Trump wanting reelection.
Marc Steiner: It’s not funny, but just it’s… The absurdity of it makes me laugh sometimes. And the danger of the absurdity makes me cringe, but when you take… Winding my way back to your articles, I think they were really, really good pieces that you wrote. You know, when you look at Greece and Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Romania, that their institutions are deeply under attack. [inaudible 00:05:24] you talked about Hungry, and they’re just almost like sliding very deeply into becoming the fascistic state. So how do we begin to define the differences why certain places become so openly fascistic about what happened in the face of COVID, using that as the reason to kind of go in? Others are more subtle, like in a sense, when you look at Israel and some other places they’re saying they’re doing this for the good of the population, monitoring people getting on and off buses, using all the technology to kind of interfere with our individual freedoms. So they’re all responding very differently. I mean, how do you look at this rise of the right and how each place is reacting so definitely in the face of all this?
Sonali Kolhatka…: I think one unifying thread through many of these troubling responses is the notion that elites will take advantage of populations in crisis. You know, Naomi Klein has applied this to capitalism. She calls Disaster Capitalism or the Shock Doctrine, but you can just as easily apply it to this idea of authoritarianism, that when elites see an opportunity to take advantage of a crisis, they can grab it. So in the case of Israel, it has grabbed the opportunity to surveil so strongly every citizen in its nation, similarly with a country like Hungary, similarly to Serbia, where you could call it disaster authoritarianism, if you will. And in the United States, you’ve seen disaster capitalism much more than disaster authoritarianism. The rich and elite wealthy Americans have literally made money off of the crisis. Corporations have made money, publicly traded companies have gotten taxpayer backed loans.
The wealthy have benefited tremendously, not just from the initial tax reform law that Trump and the Republicans put in place, which was of course pre-COVID, but then they’ve reaped even greater benefits in the economic stimulus packages they have managed to… And they have their sights set on future bills that they hope will decimate the American public even more. So I think if we look at it from the perspective of elites taking advantage of moments of crisis when vulnerable populations are turning to them for leadership, they will either push towards authoritarianism, a surveillance state, a fascistic authoritarian, a non-representative democracy and, or neo-liberal capitalist ideologies that essentially view that if the rich are well off, then society as a whole is well off. Our worth is measured by the wealth of richest people in that society. And then you have other really great examples of countries going other ways and that I point out in my articles, such as New Zealand, such as South Korea, where strong democratic institutions, and science-based approaches to government have shown that you don’t have to go down that path of authoritarian or disaster capitalism.
Marc Steiner: So let’s look at that for a moment. I mean, so here you have the United States that has a very kind of libertarian streak as part of its philosophical underpinning, whether that’s mythology, reality, it’s there and people believe it. So you have these armed men and women storming capitols with guns out, rifles out, and refusing to take part in this and saying, “you’re going after my liberties.” But then you have other countries, like as you talked about New Zealand and Taiwan and Finland and other places that are taking a very different approach. And these are also longstanding democracies, quote unquote. And so the paths are very different. And then you have places like both China and Israel that are really… Their approach is extremely Orwellian for want of a better term in terms of what they’re creating. So, I wonder if you take all of those together, what do you think that portends? I mean, where do you think that takes us in the next six months, seven months as you see all this unfolding?
Sonali Kolhatka…: Oh, well, that’s a really good question. I’m not sure what the authoritarian regimes will likely end up as, but I do know one thing, that when you have to respond in a public health emergency like the one we face, you need public buy-in. You cannot… On the surface, it might seem as though a top down strict, rigid authoritarian government, say like China, can succeed more efficiently at quelling a virus because you can just impose without any democratic questioning quarantines and lockdowns and all of that. However, there’s only so much that an authoritarian government can do to keep it citizens in control. Eventually the human longing for freedom rises up and people pushback and people break curfews and break rules because they won’t allow themselves to be pushed too far. And so you have to public buy-in in a reasonable way.
And that’s what countries like Taiwan, as you mentioned, Finland, South Korea and New Zealand have shown that there is a much more nuanced approach that will actually work where you have a democratic government that is very transparent about why there’s a need to protect public health, what needs to be done in order to protect public health. Here’s all the science, here’s the things that we’re going to trust because they make sense, and we are all going to do this together. Here’s the financial support that you may need to weather the storm. And we’re going to be really, really strict. And we need for all of you to be strict with us because we have this collective good that we’re all working towards. And so it requires a sense of public collective consciousness and actually caring about one’s fellow human, which unfortunately, under the Trump regime in the United States, bringing it back home here, we’ve seen that idea of collective good be further eroded because this rugged individualism that libertarians and Republicans have pushed for so long and Trump tries to embody has really gone to an extreme.
So I think what these… To answer your question about what may come six months from now, I think the countries that have used authoritarian means to control the virus, that think they have a handle on things right now, are going to see it backfire. People are going to rise up. The virus will continue to spread, and it’s not going to work in the longterm.
Marc Steiner: I mean, if you think about the differences between these countries… I mean, if you look at some of the countries that you mentioned, they are social democracies. They’re still capitalist nations, but they’re social democracies. So when COVID hit, the way they were organized, they could organize themselves to kind of confront this pandemic. Places like New Zealand I’m thinking about and Finland and other places. Taiwan, they could do it that way. India is its own shambles. That’s what it is. And, but there the anti-Muslim fervor, the kind of nationalism that’s kind of gripped a large portion of India in some ways is almost more symbolically tied to what’s happening in the United States where the capitalists and equities just came surging forth in all this, in terms of watching what communities of color, the Native American communities, in the black communities, people dying at exorbitant rates and getting sick in exonerate rates compared to other communities.
I mean, so the contradictions have really been raised in all of this pandemic. And that’s what I mean when you look here and look around the world in how this might play out, and then you look at China, which has pushed a really stronger authoritarian model, but that may in fact put them in a stronger position as they battle with the United States who controls the world economically. I mean, this pandemic could really redefine the future.
Sonali Kolhatka…: I think one of the things that this has also pointed out is that the United States’ own version or vision of itself as an exceptional nation has been laid bare. I mean, the world is basically seeing the U.S. not just missing in action during this crisis, but embarrassing itself on the world stage. And if the U.S. was shown to be exceptional in anything during this crisis, it is of course in having the worst impact, the highest number of infections, the highest number of deaths, the greatest ineptness, the least amount of testing. And under president Trump, these forces that are demanding a reopening of businesses because the economy is supposed to be more important than people’s lives, I view them as acts of white supremacy and of white privilege, because we know that black people especially are disproportionately getting infected from, but especially dying from the disease. White Americans, even if they may catch the disease, are less likely to die from it.
And that’s of course because of preexisting health disparities. You pointed out Native Americans. We’re seeing the third largest in the Navajo nation today. And so those Americans, those libertarian, mostly white, and you can really say white supremacist protest because now many of them have been linked to white supremacist organizations, they are deliberately endangering communities of color through their acts of defiance. And sadly the Trump government and the U.S. government and local law enforcement will bend over backwards to appease them because that’s what we’ve always done. So a thousand white folks can walk in armed to the teeth in a state Capitol and have their wishes met and not face arrest. So these are things that I think we… And we’re probably seeing that… So you pointed out India, you know, the same kinds of… So the Modi government has used the crisis to further his Islamophobic agenda. Here in the U.S. it’s anti-immigrant, anti-people of color, the democratic voters that Trump is so afraid of.
Marc Steiner: So in conclude, I think that, as I said earlier, many of the contradictions that have come to the fore in this pandemic and… How much you think what we’re facing now is going to really change the nature of political struggle here and across… If you look at… I mean, Hungary’s Orban clearly they’re moving in a completely authoritarian and fictitious direction, chaos reigns in the United States in many ways, India is becoming very oppressive. I mean, I wonder what this sets up for us, do you think?
Sonali Kolhatka…: Well, I haven’t read too much about this, but just on Monday, I read a very interesting sounding new international, progressive response to the coronavirus crisis called Progressive International. It’s being headed by folks like Yanis Varoufakis, former finance minister of Greece, and folks like Arundhati Roy and Naomi Klein and others. So this crisis definitely represents a huge challenge for the left. It’s hard to use the traditional means of organizing because we can’t very well organize a giant march to Washington D.C.
Marc Steiner: Right.
Sonali Kolhatka…: We also are not sure if we’re going to be able to even vote in this November’s election, even if you accept that voting is an act of organizing and activism, which of course it is one tool and ought to be seen as one tool in a multi-pronged approach. And it really is challenging the left, but there was just a month or two ago, a massive movement that had come together in the United States to demand progressive change under the umbrella of the Bernie Sanders campaign.
And I think that we’re going to see a reorienting of these movements. It’s a huge challenge for the left. I think we can meet it because we have already had experience organizing on the internet and digitally. There are ways to do it. I really hope that we’re going to change the nature of organizing and find a way to start to claw back some of these rights that we’ve lost in some of these… In the United States it’s not just rights lost, it’s just the most basic tenants of government that have been eroded and whittled away. And you know how we’re going to do it with somebody like Joe Biden at the forefront, as the only supposed alternative to Trump, I have no idea, but it’s a huge challenge. It might be the biggest challenge that the left faces, not just in the U.S, but worldwide.
Marc Steiner: So the COVID pandemic has, I think, changed the nature of the human political conversation on the planet. And it’s playing out different ways, depending on the country and how they’re approaching it. And all that’s going to define the political process. Well, you know, Solani Kolhatkar, it’s always, to me, a joy to talk to you. I mean, you bring a lot of good analysis to us and I appreciate it.
Sonali Kolhatka…: Thank you so much, Marc, for having me on.
Marc Steiner: Do what you do. And I look forward to many more conversations and we’ll be linking to your articles of course when we publish this interview. So thank you so much for being with us.
Sonali Kolhatka…: I appreciate it. Thank you, Marc.
Marc Steiner: Thank you very much. And I’m Marc Steiner, here for The Real News Network. Good to have you all with us, as usual. And please stay safe, stay healthy, stay in your house. Take care.
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