therealnews--2020-03-27--COVID-19, Ebola, And SARS Outbreaks Were All Unleashed By Humans

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
Marc Stiener : I ’ m Marc Steiner , great to have you all with us on this day .
The COVID-19 pandemic has much of the world gripped in fear , entire countries are on lockdown .
People are fearful , and rightfully so , of being in contact with each other .
For us here , empty shelves in supermarkets , no cars on the highways , empty streets , give you that eerily post apocalyptic feel .
Donald Trump labeling this as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ go back to normalcy , seems unattached to reality .
It ’ s not the Chinese flu , it ’ s not the other , it ’ s us .
More accurately , it ’ s our destruction of natural habitats and a climate crisis that is unleashing these viruses among us .
COVID-19 was being blamed on the poor , peaceful pangolin .
But this poor anteater that looks like an Armadillo , may be part of the reason the virus spread in China , but it ’ s our industrial development @ @ @ @ @ @ @ brought them into contact with us .
And then some thought it would be a good idea to eat these things .
It ’ s not bats or pangolins , but what our human expansion has done to unleash viruses from Ebola to COVID-19 .
From the destruction of wild habitats to melting off permafrost and arctic shelves , viruses we ’ ve never known existed may be coming our way .
And we ’ re joined by Dr. Sonia Shah .
She wrote the book Pandemic : Tracking Contagious from Cholera to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is The Next Great Migration : The Beauty and Terror of Life on the Move , that comes out in June .
And her latest article published in the nation is Think Exotic Animals Are to Blame for the Corona Virus ?
Think again .
And it ’ s being wildly read .
So welcome Sonia Shah , good to have you with us .
Sonia Shah : Nice to be here .
Marc Stiener : Help us think again , so the connection between habitat loss and climate crisis can get lost @ @ @ @ @ @ @ try to figure out how to avoid these things now and in the future , talk a bit about that connection .
Sonia Shah : This latest coronavirus is just the last in a series .
Well , it won ’ t be the last , but it ’ s just the latest in a series of newly emerged pathogens .
So over the past like 50 , 60 years or so , we ’ ve had over 300 of these pathogens kind of newly emerge , or re-emerge into places where they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ So , that includes Ebola in West Africa in 2014 , it had never been seen in that part of the continent before .
It includes Zika in the Americas were it had never been seen before .
We have new kinds of tick borne illnesses , new kinds of mosquito borne illnesses , new kinds of antibiotic resistant bacterial pathogens .
And the list goes on and on , including of course this latest coronavirus .
And about 60 % of these new pathogens come from the same place .
And that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 70 % of them come from the bodies of wild animals .
So , what I tried to do in my work is look at how does a microbe that is generally harmless in its native habitat , in its natural habitat , turn into a pandemic causing pathogens .
What are the changes that have to happen for that process to occur ?
And what I found is that in a lot of cases it ’ s because humans are invading wildlife habitat .
So when we cut down the trees where @ @ @ @ @ @ @ some far off jungle , we cut down those trees , well they don ’ t just go away .
They come and fly into our gardens , and backyards , and farms instead .
So in all these ways when we destroy wildlife habitat , we force wildlife to come into closer contact to where we live , into little fragments of habitat that we have left for them and that eases all kinds of new kinds of contact between animals and humans .
It increases hunting , trading , uneven casual @ @ @ @ @ @ @ touched a piece of fruit that had some bat saliva on it you could get Ebola virus on your hands , and you put that your hand in your mouth and that ’ s it .
The microbe that lives in the animals bodies has come into the human body , and that ’ s how the Ebola outbreak of 2014 actually started .
And we will probably eventually be able to trace back this current pandemic to some kind of single quote unquote spill over event like that .
But the root @ @ @ @ @ @ @ into human bodies because we ’ re destroying their habitat and bringing them closer into contact with ours .
Marc Stiener : A couple of things here I ’ ve got to explore .
What you mentioned a moment ago , I mean we ’ re talking about viruses , everything from Ebola to HIV , to Lyme disease in this country are all kind of erupting for the similar reason .
And when you look at some of the new science coming out about the potential viruses being unleashed by the melting @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
When you add that to the habitat issue we , unfortunately and frighteningly , could just be seeing the beginning of what could erupt over the next decades .
Do think that ’ s alarmist ?
Do you think that ’ s real ?
Sonia Shah : I don ’ t know that the melting permafrost is sort of the biggest driver of this , I think invading wildlife habit is a bigger driver because you also have to think about which microbes in animals bodies can easily adapt to human bodies @ @ @ @ @ @ @ microbes that live in other mammals , and it ’ s usually ones that are more similar to us .
So , we get a lot of pathogens from pigs for example , we ’ ll get fewer from reptiles , right ?
So , the source matters because each microbe has to kind of adapt .
So this is a long process , this doesn ’ t happen instantly .
What happens is there ’ s repeated contact between humans and the animal reservoir of these microbes .
And those repeated contacts @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the human body , right ?
Because in the beginning it ’ s an animal microbe , it ’ s not going to make you sick necessarily , or your immune system ’ s going to get rid of it .
The pathogen has to adapt .
So there has to be repeated contact over time .
So we ’ ve seen these wet markets have existed , for example , which is a source of the SARS pathogen that came out in 2002 , 2003 , and may be the origins of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ markets existed for many , many years , but what happened over the past 20 or 30 years is they started to get bigger and bigger because the Chinese economy expanded and people were going farther and farther into wildlife habitat to invade , in places that are farther and farther away , bring animals from lots of different places closer together .
So it ’ s that slow process of expansion and the repeated contact between humans and wildlife that allows these microbes to adapt and become human pathogens .
Marc Stiener @ @ @ @ @ @ @ if human expansion and capitalist development and all kinds of industrial development and development period are part of the causes that underlies these growth of viruses , then how do we think about what to do about that ?
I mean it ’ s one thing to talk about how you fight COVID-19 at this moment , and I think that ’ s one issue .
The other issue is how do you prevent the COVID-19s of the future from erupting given the nature of human beings to expand ?
I mean you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you think of the neolithic period that was unleashed there , tuberculosis and measles that are still with us .
So , how do we begin to talk as a society , as human beings , as a culture , how to change what we do in order not to have these explosions or is that even possible ?
Sonia Shah : It is possible .
We ’ re always going to have infectious diseases , right ?
I mean we live on a microbial planet and that ’ s sort of part @ @ @ @ @ @ @ don ’ t want to sanitize the planet of microbes or anything like that .
So the trick is , do you have to have pandemics though ?
And I think from my research and reporting , the answer is absolutely not .
Pandemics are manufactured by human activities .
We ’ ll have infectious disease outbreaks , but we don ’ t have to have these massive pandemics that travel across the globe and result in what we ’ re seeing today .
And one step towards that is , of course @ @ @ @ @ @ @ so that microbes that live in animals bodies stay in their bodies .
Reducing the impact of climate change will help too because , of course , we know that a lot of species are moving into new places to escape the effects of the climate crisis .
And as they do that , they ’ re moving into new kinds of contact with human populations also .
So that provides other opportunities for these spillovers to happen .
But we also can sort of actively surveil where these spillovers are happening and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
We don ’ t know which microbe will cause the next pandemic , but we do know what the drivers are .
We know that it ’ s things like invasion of wildlife habitat , lots of flight connections , lots of slums , lots of factory farms .
These are all drivers of pandemic causing pathogens .
So since we know that we can Predict where it ’ s most likely to happen .
So scientists have actually come up with these global hotspot maps .
There are places… It ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ where are all the places in the world where it ’ s most likely that a pandemic causing pathogen could emerge .
And in those places we can do active surveillance , really look at all the microbes there .
Don ’ t wait for the outbreak to happen , don ’ t wait for cases to emerge so people are already getting sick and the microbe ’ s already spreading exponentially .
But actually look for them sort of preventively , to do that kind of active surveillance .
And that was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for about 10 years until the Trump administration killed it last year .
Marc Stiener : You ’ re talking about Predict and the stuff that CDC was doing that the budget was canceled , that ’ s what you ’ re talking about .
Sonia Shah : So that was a program funded by USAID and it involved lots of different agencies and academic institutions around the world .
And what they would do is they would go to these disease hotspots and try to actively surveil how microbes might be changing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ scat from animals or take blood from farmers or hunters .
They had a variety of different ways to actually actively look for these microbes and then see how they might be changing .
And they actually were able to find about 900 , I think , over the course of that 10 year period .
And so then you can say , “ Okay , well this microbe looks like it ’ s evolving to adapt to the human body in a way that could make it into a dangerous pathogen .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ this local level so that it doesn ’ t have those opportunities anymore.
” Maybe it ’ s changing hunting practices , or some trading practices , or something much more localized that you could alter through a small intervention as opposed to waiting until it starts erupting in epidemics and spreads around the world .
And then thinking , “ Oh , okay , now let ’ s try to contain it.
” Marc Stiener : So without being accusatory here , just larger questions in close .
If Predict had been @ @ @ @ @ @ @ funding to be able to look ahead and see what potential pathogens may arise , could this have been avoided ?
Is that possible or is that too much conjecture ?
Sonia Shah : I mean it ’ s possible .
This is all probabilities , right ?
So say there ’ s thousands of microbes out there that could become the next pandemic causing pathogen .
If we could surveil and contain 80 % of those , would our risk of pandemics go down ?
Yes , it would .
Does it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have emerged ?
Well , who knows ?
Marc Stiener : And as we conclude Sonia give us a little tip for the future about what we should be wrestling with as a society in terms of how to go forward .
Sonia Shah : The first thing is we got to get this thing under control and what ’ s happening now is commercial pressures and political pressures are altering our containment strategy , and what we ’ re going to see is a bloodbath in our hospitals .
So all of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I think one of the things that ’ s really striking about these outbreaks of novel kinds of diseases is that there is no drug , there is no vaccine , there is no easy biomedical product that we can all use to solve it , right ?
Because they come up too fast and by the time you get the vaccine or the drug you ’ ve already had this whole wave of epidemic .
So what that means is that the only thing that really works is collective action and solidarity @ @ @ @ @ @ @ starting to see that in different parts of the world , and people are trying , and that ’ s really going to be the solution out of this thing .
Marc Stiener : Well Sonia Shah thank you for the work you do and the writing you do .
It ’ s really important and I look forward to seeing what else you produce , look forward to your book coming out in June .
And I want to thank you so much for joining us here on the real news today @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with us , I know you ’ re very busy at this moment , so thank you so much .
Marc Stiener : And I ’ m Mark Steiner here for the Real News Network , thank you all for joining us .
Let us know what you think .
We ’ ll be covering this pandemic intensely from all different quarters .
So take care and take care of yourself .

Some of the most devastating outbreaks of the modern era can be traced to rapacious development and habitat destruction that brings wild creatures into our domestic spaces.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Marc Stiener: I’m Marc Steiner, great to have you all with us on this day. The COVID-19 pandemic has much of the world gripped in fear, entire countries are on lockdown. People are fearful, and rightfully so, of being in contact with each other. For us here, empty shelves in supermarkets, no cars on the highways, empty streets, give you that eerily post apocalyptic feel. Donald Trump labeling this as the Chinese virus and urging us to go back to normalcy, seems unattached to reality. It’s not the Chinese flu, it’s not the other, it’s us. More accurately, it’s our destruction of natural habitats and a climate crisis that is unleashing these viruses among us.
COVID-19 was being blamed on the poor, peaceful pangolin. But this poor anteater that looks like an Armadillo, may be part of the reason the virus spread in China, but it’s our industrial development that’s destroying his habitat that brought them into contact with us. And then some thought it would be a good idea to eat these things. It’s not bats or pangolins, but what our human expansion has done to unleash viruses from Ebola to COVID-19. From the destruction of wild habitats to melting off permafrost and arctic shelves, viruses we’ve never known existed may be coming our way.
And we’re joined by Dr. Sonia Shah. She wrote the book Pandemic: Tracking Contagious from Cholera to Ebola and Beyond. Her newest book is The Next Great Migration: The Beauty and Terror of Life on the Move, that comes out in June. And her latest article published in the nation is Think Exotic Animals Are to Blame for the Corona Virus? Think again. And it’s being wildly read. So welcome Sonia Shah, good to have you with us.
Sonia Shah: Nice to be here.
Marc Stiener: Help us think again, so the connection between habitat loss and climate crisis can get lost in this conversation. And when we try to figure out how to avoid these things now and in the future, talk a bit about that connection.
Sonia Shah: This latest coronavirus is just the last in a series. Well, it won’t be the last, but it’s just the latest in a series of newly emerged pathogens. So over the past like 50, 60 years or so, we’ve had over 300 of these pathogens kind of newly emerge, or re-emerge into places where they’d never been seen before. So, that includes Ebola in West Africa in 2014, it had never been seen in that part of the continent before. It includes Zika in the Americas were it had never been seen before. We have new kinds of tick borne illnesses, new kinds of mosquito borne illnesses, new kinds of antibiotic resistant bacterial pathogens. And the list goes on and on, including of course this latest coronavirus. And about 60% of these new pathogens come from the same place. And that is the bodies of animals. About 70% of them come from the bodies of wild animals.
So, what I tried to do in my work is look at how does a microbe that is generally harmless in its native habitat, in its natural habitat, turn into a pandemic causing pathogens. What are the changes that have to happen for that process to occur? And what I found is that in a lot of cases it’s because humans are invading wildlife habitat. So when we cut down the trees where bats roost… If bats are roosting in some far off jungle, we cut down those trees, well they don’t just go away. They come and fly into our gardens, and backyards, and farms instead. So in all these ways when we destroy wildlife habitat, we force wildlife to come into closer contact to where we live, into little fragments of habitat that we have left for them and that eases all kinds of new kinds of contact between animals and humans.
It increases hunting, trading, uneven casual contact. For example, if you touched a piece of fruit that had some bat saliva on it you could get Ebola virus on your hands, and you put that your hand in your mouth and that’s it. The microbe that lives in the animals bodies has come into the human body, and that’s how the Ebola outbreak of 2014 actually started. And we will probably eventually be able to trace back this current pandemic to some kind of single quote unquote spill over event like that. But the root of it is microbes in animals coming into human bodies because we’re destroying their habitat and bringing them closer into contact with ours.
Marc Stiener: A couple of things here I’ve got to explore. What you mentioned a moment ago, I mean we’re talking about viruses, everything from Ebola to HIV, to Lyme disease in this country are all kind of erupting for the similar reason. And when you look at some of the new science coming out about the potential viruses being unleashed by the melting of permafrost in the Arctic ice shelves. When you add that to the habitat issue we, unfortunately and frighteningly, could just be seeing the beginning of what could erupt over the next decades. Do think that’s alarmist? Do you think that’s real?
Sonia Shah: I don’t know that the melting permafrost is sort of the biggest driver of this, I think invading wildlife habit is a bigger driver because you also have to think about which microbes in animals bodies can easily adapt to human bodies. And so that’s usually microbes that live in other mammals, and it’s usually ones that are more similar to us. So, we get a lot of pathogens from pigs for example, we’ll get fewer from reptiles, right? So, the source matters because each microbe has to kind of adapt. So this is a long process, this doesn’t happen instantly. What happens is there’s repeated contact between humans and the animal reservoir of these microbes. And those repeated contacts allow the microbe to slowly adapt to the human body, right? Because in the beginning it’s an animal microbe, it’s not going to make you sick necessarily, or your immune system’s going to get rid of it.
The pathogen has to adapt. So there has to be repeated contact over time. So we’ve seen these wet markets have existed, for example, which is a source of the SARS pathogen that came out in 2002, 2003, and may be the origins of the current Corona virus. Those wet markets existed for many, many years, but what happened over the past 20 or 30 years is they started to get bigger and bigger because the Chinese economy expanded and people were going farther and farther into wildlife habitat to invade, in places that are farther and farther away, bring animals from lots of different places closer together. So it’s that slow process of expansion and the repeated contact between humans and wildlife that allows these microbes to adapt and become human pathogens.
Marc Stiener: And a broader question here, if human expansion and capitalist development and all kinds of industrial development and development period are part of the causes that underlies these growth of viruses, then how do we think about what to do about that? I mean it’s one thing to talk about how you fight COVID-19 at this moment, and I think that’s one issue. The other issue is how do you prevent the COVID-19s of the future from erupting given the nature of human beings to expand? I mean you wrote in your article that even when you think of the neolithic period that was unleashed there, tuberculosis and measles that are still with us. So, how do we begin to talk as a society, as human beings, as a culture, how to change what we do in order not to have these explosions or is that even possible?
Sonia Shah: It is possible. We’re always going to have infectious diseases, right? I mean we live on a microbial planet and that’s sort of part of the human condition. So we don’t want to sanitize the planet of microbes or anything like that. So the trick is, do you have to have pandemics though? And I think from my research and reporting, the answer is absolutely not. Pandemics are manufactured by human activities. We’ll have infectious disease outbreaks, but we don’t have to have these massive pandemics that travel across the globe and result in what we’re seeing today. And one step towards that is, of course, reducing our destruction of wildlife habitat so that microbes that live in animals bodies stay in their bodies. Reducing the impact of climate change will help too because, of course, we know that a lot of species are moving into new places to escape the effects of the climate crisis. And as they do that, they’re moving into new kinds of contact with human populations also. So that provides other opportunities for these spillovers to happen.
But we also can sort of actively surveil where these spillovers are happening and kind of contain them at their source. We don’t know which microbe will cause the next pandemic, but we do know what the drivers are. We know that it’s things like invasion of wildlife habitat, lots of flight connections, lots of slums, lots of factory farms. These are all drivers of pandemic causing pathogens. So since we know that we can Predict where it’s most likely to happen. So scientists have actually come up with these global hotspot maps. There are places… It’s a map and it just shows where are all the places in the world where it’s most likely that a pandemic causing pathogen could emerge. And in those places we can do active surveillance, really look at all the microbes there. Don’t wait for the outbreak to happen, don’t wait for cases to emerge so people are already getting sick and the microbe’s already spreading exponentially. But actually look for them sort of preventively, to do that kind of active surveillance. And that was actually a project that was going on for about 10 years until the Trump administration killed it last year.
Marc Stiener: You’re talking about Predict and the stuff that CDC was doing that the budget was canceled, that’s what you’re talking about.
Sonia Shah: That’s right.
Marc Stiener: Talk a bit about that.
Sonia Shah: So that was a program funded by USAID and it involved lots of different agencies and academic institutions around the world. And what they would do is they would go to these disease hotspots and try to actively surveil how microbes might be changing. So they would sample say, scat from animals or take blood from farmers or hunters. They had a variety of different ways to actually actively look for these microbes and then see how they might be changing. And they actually were able to find about 900, I think, over the course of that 10 year period. And so then you can say, “Okay, well this microbe looks like it’s evolving to adapt to the human body in a way that could make it into a dangerous pathogen. Let’s change our behaviors on this local level so that it doesn’t have those opportunities anymore.” Maybe it’s changing hunting practices, or some trading practices, or something much more localized that you could alter through a small intervention as opposed to waiting until it starts erupting in epidemics and spreads around the world. And then thinking, “Oh, okay, now let’s try to contain it.”
Marc Stiener: So without being accusatory here, just larger questions in close. If Predict had been funded fully, if we had full funding to be able to look ahead and see what potential pathogens may arise, could this have been avoided? Is that possible or is that too much conjecture?
Sonia Shah: I mean it’s possible. This is all probabilities, right? So say there’s thousands of microbes out there that could become the next pandemic causing pathogen. If we could surveil and contain 80% of those, would our risk of pandemics go down? Yes, it would. Does it mean that this particular virus would not have emerged? Well, who knows?
Marc Stiener: And as we conclude Sonia give us a little tip for the future about what we should be wrestling with as a society in terms of how to go forward.
Sonia Shah: The first thing is we got to get this thing under control and what’s happening now is commercial pressures and political pressures are altering our containment strategy, and what we’re going to see is a bloodbath in our hospitals. So all of us need to chip in. And I think one of the things that’s really striking about these outbreaks of novel kinds of diseases is that there is no drug, there is no vaccine, there is no easy biomedical product that we can all use to solve it, right? Because they come up too fast and by the time you get the vaccine or the drug you’ve already had this whole wave of epidemic. So what that means is that the only thing that really works is collective action and solidarity. And I think we’re starting to see that in different parts of the world, and people are trying, and that’s really going to be the solution out of this thing.
Marc Stiener: Well Sonia Shah thank you for the work you do and the writing you do. It’s really important and I look forward to seeing what else you produce, look forward to your book coming out in June. And I want to thank you so much for joining us here on the real news today. I appreciate you taking the time with us, I know you’re very busy at this moment, so thank you so much.
Sonia Shah: Thank you.
Marc Stiener: And I’m Mark Steiner here for the Real News Network, thank you all for joining us. Let us know what you think. We’ll be covering this pandemic intensely from all different quarters. So take care and take care of yourself.
Production: Genevieve Montinar, Taylor Hebden, Andrew Corkery
Studio: Taylor Hebden
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therealnews--2020-03-27--An Appeal From Two Real News Elders

An Appeal From Two Real News Elders

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therealnews--2020-03-27--Opposition To Kagame Proves Deadly For Rwandans

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
Jacqueline Luqm… : This is Jacqueline Luqman with The Real News Network .
The past that we refuse to acknowledge or , in this case , that ’ s been been covered up so expertly by the US propaganda machine will always resurface to haunt us in the present .
Such is the case of President Paul Kagame of Rwanda .
In a previous segment , I talk with author Judi Rever whose book , In Praise of Blood : The Crimes of the Rwandan @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Kagame and his Rwandan Patriotic Front Army that they played as not the heroes who ended the genocide in 1994 , but who committed their own acts of mass violence in the conflict .
In this segment , we turn our attention to current and ongoing conflicts surrounding Kagame as those who challenge his administration and question his past face brutal repression and worse .
Joining me for this discussion is Claude Gatebuke who was a survivor of the Rwandan genocide and is executive director of the African Great Lakes Action Network .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ joining me today .
Claude Gatebuke : Thank you for having me , Jacqueline .
Jacqueline Luqm… : So Claude , since Paul Kagame was elected president of Rwanda , has there always been opposition within the country to him or is that a new phenomenon , the opposition to Kagame ?
Claude Gatebuke : I think to call it an election , you have to put quote marks , right ?
Because Paul Kagame basically runs against himself which is why he wins 93 % in 2003 , 95 % in 2010 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and 99 % in 2017 .
After , by the way , his terms were supposed to end in 2017 , he forced a change in the constitution to allow him to run to be president until 2034 .
Claude Gatebuke : That is 14 years from now and that is 18 years … Sorry .
17 years in addition to the 17 years he had served as president officially , but he ’ s really been in charge since 1994 , so 40 years , to almost a whole generation and more @ @ @ @ @ @ @ any real opposition .
What he does to the opposition is if you look back at every one of those elections , for example if we just use the election , every one of the elections that he ran , those who opposed him went to prison .
In 2003 , there was Charles Ntakirutimana .
In 2010 , a woman , Victoire Ingabire was imprisoned .
She served eight years .
Then in 2017 , Diane Rwigara , another woman , tried to run against him .
He never actually allowed any @ @ @ @ @ @ @ served a whole year in prison .
It ’ s important to mention that these were women , especially the last two , Victoire Ingabire and Diane Rwigara , because the propaganda ran by Paul Kagame talks about a majority women parliament and Rwanda priding itself as having the largest percentage of women in parliament , but these are the same women who rubber-stamped Paul Kagame to run again .
Basically , what we have in Rwanda is appointed people by Kagame to allow him to do as he pleases and his RPF @ @ @ @ @ @ @ there ’ s no opposition when it comes to the way the RPF runs the country in Rwanda .
Every one of the opponents has been sidelined and their supporters have been arrested , tortured , many of them killed including sometimes for some of them in exile .
As we have it now , Victoire Ingabire is basically , although she was “ pardoned ” in 2018 , she ’ s still under arrest because she still has to report every month to the police station or to some officials to make @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
She does not have permission to travel outside of the country .
So she just went from the small house to the big house .
Claude Gatebuke : She is basically imprisoned in an open-air prison which is basically the living conditions of Rwandans .
Back to that , when I say it ’ s an open-air prison in Rwanda , the borders of Rwanda are closed around the whole country , especially the Uganda and the Burundi borders , but the Uganda border has been a big source of controversy .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ re starving , can not even leave the country to go and shop across the border .
The ones who obviously live near Uganda , they actually have relatives .
They can ’ t even go visit their relatives on the other side of the border .
A woman , a pregnant woman was killed a few months ago for trying to cross , shot by the Rwandan police .
Multiple people have been shot including Ugandan citizens .
Of course , there ’ s the recent story of famous Rwandan singer , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the country , he ’ s a symbol of peace , reconciliation , and especially justice because you can ’ t have any of those without justice , was arrested near the border of Burundi .
He was actually still inside of Rwanda .
Four days later , he turned up dead and the government of Rwanda claimed that he committed suicide which is absolutely a big lie because- Jacqueline Luqm… : Now , let me pause you for a second there because we ’ re talking about a singer , Kizito Mihigo @ @ @ @ @ @ @ very beloved in Rwanda , not an obscure name .
Not to say that people who are not famous deserve to be forgotten in the repression campaigns of Paul Kagame , but this was a death that was not going to go unnoticed in Rwanda .
Can you tell us a little bit about how the response to Mihigo ’ s death has been in Rwanda and what people are saying in the country about his death and the circumstances surrounding his death and people ’ s response to the Kagame administration now @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Kizito , I can ’ t call it a death in good faith .
Anybody that does that is not operating in good faith .
The assassination of Kizito Mihigo by the government of Rwanda devastated Rwandans .
The general population , every person , every generation was touched by Kizito through his music and his message of peace and reconciliation , and just acknowledging the fact … So here ’ s his crime , why the government of Rwanda started going after him .
Claude Gatebuke : Kizito Mihigo sang a song @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ] which means The Meaning of Death .
In that song , he was comforting victims and survivors of the genocide , Tutsi people , who suffered a genocide in 1994 .
It was also comforting people who died in other circumstances including those who were killed in crimes not recognized as genocide , which basically that indicts the RPF , the government in power in Rwanda .
Soon after that , he was disappeared .
He went missing for over a week .
Then they produced him and they paraded him in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ That ’ s the first time I actually personally heard of him .
I didn ’ t actually know a lot about him .
Then I just started looking into the case because it was really weird to have somebody in handcuffs paraded in front of media to make a statement without a lawyer and then- Claude Gatebuke : … have a court case after that .
They made him apologize .
We have secret audios where he talks about what they did to him .
They tortured him .
They beat him @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the … When they beat him , he was in the office of , and it ’ s in the secret audio , the cabinet , the president ’ s cabinet leader .
Then they made him confess to a crime that he didn ’ t commit .
They sentenced him to 10 years in prison , then pardoned him in 2018 after four years , and they kept him basically imprisoned because just last week , they arrested him and claimed that he was attempting to leave Rwanda when , in fact @ @ @ @ @ @ @ said he was 10 minutes away from the border and he was laying down or sleeping .
So he wasn ’ t even anywhere crossing the border .
This was before any crossing happened .
It was inside of Rwanda which he ’ s allowed to do , and there was no crime being committed .
Then of course they paraded , they showed pictures of him .
He looked like he was touring like a tourist .
Then they arrested him .
He died four days later in custody , killed .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ The people were devastated .
That ’ s what I wanted to get to .
Everybody is mourning in Rwanda .
For the last two weeks , there ’ s been mourning all over the world .
There ’ s been church services everywhere for Kizito Mihigo .
That is the most protesting you will ever see from Rwandans which is a sign of repression by the way .
The simple fact that people even went to the funeral … Normally when somebody like that dies that the government doesn ’ t like @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to the funeral .
There ’ s a handful of people .
This time , thousands of people showed up .
That ’ s the biggest protest we ’ ve ever seen in Rwanda .
Some of the people interviewed , one journalist said that he noticed there was cuts on his face and bruises on his forehead .
There was other people who were interviewed that said , “ You know what ?
He got killed just like everybody else.
” Basically killing somebody is business as usual , but Kizito is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ why the whole world , at least Rwandans all over the world , are mourning .
Like I said , every continent has had a service , something to acknowledge and pay tribute to him .
So those are really the … This is the first time Rwandans have united to protest against an injustice .
A lot of them are doing it in a timid way by just holding church services .
A lot of people have spoken out which is why a lot of the media reports now are saying , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of suicide can not be believed .
It ’ s under dispute.
” Even when you look at the conditions , they say that he hung himself with a bed sheet .
Jacqueline Luqm… : You speak to just the beloved nature of this man and the fact that the international community , Rwandans throughout the diaspora , are protesting in their own way against his death , but then there is the issue of the secret recordings , which we have some of the secret recordings where he describes what was done @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the days following the song ’ s release , I received insults and threats and messages saying something bad would happen to me .
I was invited for an interview with president ’ s chief of staff which took place in the office of the senate president who was , at the time , the senate vice president .
They said the president didn ’ t like my song and I should write a letter asking for a pardon .
The chief of staff and senate vice president said if I didn ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was a dead man .
I was put on the floor and beaten on the buttocks .
The deputy police chief came to see me and said if I continued to ask forgiveness during my trial , things would be easy , but if I pleaded not guilty and tried to denounce injustices which had been done to me , they ’ d give me a life sentence and I would die in prison .
Jacqueline Luqm… : So we received those recordings from News Channel 4 in England and now , these @ @ @ @ @ @ @ audience .
What do you think the response is going to be of the Kagame government to the release of these recordings in particular ?
Claude Gatebuke : Denial as usual and basically saying that these aren ’ t true recordings of his voice , but we know that these can be authenticated .
Where he sent them is our trusted places , and these were conversations that he was having with real people .
The response to the audios and to the international community responding the way it ’ s responding basically @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for once , skepticism on the story that Kagame ’ s presenting is going to be force , more repression against Rwandans and more repression against those of us who are spreading the news , but the fact that it ’ s very public is going to be really difficult .
So I think they ’ re going to go on a big PR campaign to try to sanitize the image of Kagame which is what they do .
They commit atrocities and then they [ inaudible 00:15:31 ] to make people forget @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to make sure that this is not forgotten and this is the last time that they assassinate or massacre people and get away with it and that Kizito Mihigo , a symbol of peace in Rwanda , and his work and his legacy will not go to waste .
So they ’ re going to lobby .
They ’ re going to spend a lot of money on lobbyist , a lot of money on PR , and also they are running a smear campaign and dehumanization campaign against Kizito Mihigo .
They @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the government running opinion pieces and other things and talking about conversations they had with him dehumanizing him , saying that he dirtied the genocide survivors ’ memory and that he should not have sang the song .
The song is really the central point of it .
Again , the point of contention is if the crimes that the RPF acknowledged , then the whole story and narrative of Kagame and the RPF being saviors in the genocide instead of one of the perpetrators , it goes out the window .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ based on what I know , Kagame and the RPF were just also perpetrators during the genocide .
I have testimony on video , on audio too , from some of Kagame ’ s bodyguards .
One is James [ Munyandinda 00:17:18 ] .
I ’ ve also spoken to [ inaudible 00:17:22 ] .
They have testified that the RPF sent units of their soldiers to mix in with the militia , the [ inter-army 00:17:33 ] militia that committed the genocide in 1994 against Tutsi people , to mix in and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s also other evidence where Paul Kagame himself has admitted to sacrificing Tutsis who lived inside of Rwanda before 1994 by slowing down his war efforts and being really slow to move and General Dallaire , the Canadian peacekeeper , asked him , “ Hey , finish the war faster so that people can be saved.
” He refused .
He said- Claude Gatebuke : … “ We ’ ll finish the war on our own pace.
” They also asked him , “ Are you not concerned about all of these @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Tutsis that are being slaughtered ?
” He said , “ In order to win the war , there ’ s got to be sacrifices.
” So all of this , Kagame ’ s not ready for it to come out and it ’ s the narrative that keeps the international community , including the US , supporting Kagame and saying that they made a mistake and they left him to be the sole savior during the genocide and therefore , they can not speak or take any action against him which @ @ @ @ @ @ @ false premise which is slowly and slowly getting destroyed .
The death and the killing of Kizito Mihigo is going to destroy this narrative even more because there are a lot of people who survived the genocide that the RPF actually recognizes because they don ’ t recognize or acknowledge or accept many of us who survived the genocide as survivors because we will not basically go along with the narrative of the RPF .
We just tell the story as we know it .
There are many who were previously pushing the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Now with the death of Kizito , they ’ ve turned their backs .
So the truth is coming out .
It just happens to be … Losing the right term for it , but unintended consequences .
The unintended consequences of killing Kizito which was they wanted to scare people into silence , there ’ s even more people speaking out now .
There are more people outraged .
Jacqueline Luqm… : The exact opposite has happened of what they have intended .
Jacqueline Luqm… : We ’ ve got a couple @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you to tie all of this together with to what the United States ’ interest in this issue and the Kagame administration is because from what I understand , the Rwanda Development Board has just reported that the Kagame administration has attracted $ 2.4 billion of foreign investments .
That ’ s up from last year which was supposed to be $ 2.1 billion .
This is an amount of money that is actually more money in foreign investments than Rwanda has collected the past eight years .
So that ’ s an @ @ @ @ @ @ @ … the US … Yeah , but US business interest in Rwanda is expanding not necessarily through government interests , but through private interest in coffee , energy , and mining .
So explain why that is important to what is going on in Rwanda right now .
Claude Gatebuke : Yes , so let me start with what does this have to do with the American people , audience .
We are paying for a lot of these atrocities because when you give resources to a war criminal like Paul Kagame , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ him resources .
So people should know , US citizens should know that the US is a donor to Paul Kagame who turns around and basically uses our money to kill the people in Rwanda and the Congo .
So I ’ m getting to the resource part .
Claude Gatebuke : Private entities benefiting from this , from Paul Kagame ’ s reign , that ’ s the main , really the fuel if you will .
The contracts … So I ’ m not actually sure about those numbers because it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that a lot of the numbers coming out of Rwanda are inflated and they ’ re fake .
However , even without the fake numbers , there ’ s a real issue .
Rwanda doesn ’ t have a lot of … Coffee for sure , yes , is the main export material .
Energy , there ’ s very little that would come out of Rwanda , Lake Kivu definitely being one of the suppliers which previously there was actually a dispute between Rwanda the country and a Canadian company fighting over @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that are being looted , plundered from the Congo .
Rwanda is the top exporter , I believe if I read the recent reports correctly , or one of the top exporters of coltan .
There ’ s no coltan in Rwanda .
Coltan is in the Congo .
Coltan is used to power our cellphones and a bunch of other electronics .
There ’ s also other minerals like uranium and others in the Congo that are found in the Congo , copper , that are … Rwanda is the transit point @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
There ’ s a bunch of Western mining companies in the Congo that are exploiting the Congolese people , supporting these various warlords or supporting militias that are formed by the Rwandan military and soldiers to go and take over these mining towns and displace people and then go in there and mine and take the resources .
There ’ s a website , conflictminerals.org , that has a list of those companies that are mostly Canadian , Australian , American , British , French , Belgian , and then a few @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the resources is one .
The other is this cover or hiding behind Kagame having the moral authority to basically do whatever he wants because he “ stopped ” the genocide which is incorrect that has the US providing political and diplomatic cover .
The way this has happened in the past is when there are reports showing the atrocities by Rwanda ’ s military , especially its top leaders , General James [ Kabarebe 00:24:38 ] , General Charles [ Kayonga 00:24:40 ] , General [ Jacques Nziza 00:24:41 ] , reported @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the US has blocked the reports , especially at the UN , from being released until they were leaked in the media .
So that ’ s the diplomatic cover and political cover .
Then facilitates these US businesses which there ’ s nothing wrong with just going to do business as long as it ’ s honest business , but- Claude Gatebuke : … going there to use basically a proxy army , the Rwandan military , to go into the Congo , destroy the villages … Today , just this weekend @ @ @ @ @ @ @ called Beni which is also in eastern Congo where there ’ s a lot of mining towns and a lot of these mines are located .
There are massacres happening in Beni today .
B-E-N-I for those who would like to look it up .
All of this has a hand of US policy and US businesses .
Paul Kagame just happens to be a conduit and the latest by the way … Let me just say this .
He is the latest puppet of the US who will most likely be disposed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ bin Laden and others that the US has previously supported .
So he is one in a long line of friendly tyrants .
Previously in the region was Mobuto Sese Seko of the Congo .
Now today , you have Paul Kagame and Museveni of … Kagame of Rwanda and Museveni of Uganda .
Jacqueline Luqm… : So Claude , this is … I always like to wrap these conversations up with how people can learn how to support the efforts of your organization and how people can work to bring accountability to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for their actions and that ’ s Paul Kagame and also the protect the dissidents who are speaking out against him .
How can people get involved ?
Claude Gatebuke : So a couple of things .
Reach out to us through our website , aglan.org .
A-G-L-A-N.org .
There are a number of other organizations that we are in coalition with that we ’ ll connect with , but if you start with us .
Continue to follow us on social media and spread our message and the message that we ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we ’ re getting involved .
There ’ s an effort by Nobel Peace Prize winner , a doctor in the Congo who ’ s been doing amazing work to fix women who- Claude Gatebuke : … brutally , brutally assaulted and raped .
So he ’ s been doing amazing work with them and he won a Nobel Peace Prize for them .
What he ’ s calling for is a mechanism to bring justice to the victims of the crimes documented in a report .
It ’ s called the UN @ @ @ @ @ @ @ It came out 10 years ago in 2010 , October 1 , 2010 .
The report has been there .
It documents some horrible crimes , and what we ’ re doing is supporting those efforts to bring about justice for those victims .
So we ask that the viewers and the followers to check with us so we can guide them on how to get involved in terms of supporting this mechanism .
Part of it will be involving actually American US officials obviously .
Jacqueline Luqm… : Yes , obviously .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ enough for explaining why the crimes , the ongoing crimes of Paul Kagame in Rwanda and in the Congo are important issues for American viewers and for our viewers internationally .
So thank you so much for your work and your witness , Claude .
Thank you for your time today .
Claude Gatebuke : Thank you for having me .
Jacqueline Luqm… : Thank you for watching .
This is Jacqueline Luqman with The Real News Network in Washington , DC .

Those who challenge Kagame’s administration and question his past face brutal repression, and worse. Claude Gatebuke highlights the latest case of murdered Rwandan singer Kizito Mihigo.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Jacqueline Luqm…: This is Jacqueline Luqman with The Real News Network. The past that we refuse to acknowledge or, in this case, that’s been been covered up so expertly by the US propaganda machine will always resurface to haunt us in the present. Such is the case of President Paul Kagame of Rwanda. In a previous segment, I talk with author Judi Rever whose book, In Praise of Blood: The Crimes of the Rwandan Patriotic Front, highlights the role of Kagame and his Rwandan Patriotic Front Army that they played as not the heroes who ended the genocide in 1994, but who committed their own acts of mass violence in the conflict.
In this segment, we turn our attention to current and ongoing conflicts surrounding Kagame as those who challenge his administration and question his past face brutal repression and worse. Joining me for this discussion is Claude Gatebuke who was a survivor of the Rwandan genocide and is executive director of the African Great Lakes Action Network. Claude, thank you so much for joining me today.
Claude Gatebuke: Thank you for having me, Jacqueline.
Jacqueline Luqm…: So Claude, since Paul Kagame was elected president of Rwanda, has there always been opposition within the country to him or is that a new phenomenon, the opposition to Kagame?
Claude Gatebuke: I think to call it an election, you have to put quote marks, right? Because Paul Kagame basically runs against himself which is why he wins 93% in 2003, 95% in 2010 if I’m not mistaken, and 99% in 2017. After, by the way, his terms were supposed to end in 2017, he forced a change in the constitution to allow him to run to be president until 2034.
Jacqueline Luqm…: Wow.
Claude Gatebuke: That is 14 years from now and that is 18 years … Sorry. 17 years in addition to the 17 years he had served as president officially, but he’s really been in charge since 1994, so 40 years, to almost a whole generation and more. So he’s not had any real opposition. What he does to the opposition is if you look back at every one of those elections, for example if we just use the election, every one of the elections that he ran, those who opposed him went to prison. In 2003, there was Charles Ntakirutimana. In 2010, a woman, Victoire Ingabire was imprisoned. She served eight years. Then in 2017, Diane Rwigara, another woman, tried to run against him. He never actually allowed any of them to run, and she served a whole year in prison.
It’s important to mention that these were women, especially the last two, Victoire Ingabire and Diane Rwigara, because the propaganda ran by Paul Kagame talks about a majority women parliament and Rwanda priding itself as having the largest percentage of women in parliament, but these are the same women who rubber-stamped Paul Kagame to run again. Basically, what we have in Rwanda is appointed people by Kagame to allow him to do as he pleases and his RPF party. So to your question, there’s no opposition when it comes to the way the RPF runs the country in Rwanda. Every one of the opponents has been sidelined and their supporters have been arrested, tortured, many of them killed including sometimes for some of them in exile. As we have it now, Victoire Ingabire is basically, although she was “pardoned” in 2018, she’s still under arrest because she still has to report every month to the police station or to some officials to make sure that she’s still there. She does not have permission to travel outside of the country. So she just went from the small house to the big house.
Jacqueline Luqm…: Wow.
Claude Gatebuke: She is basically imprisoned in an open-air prison which is basically the living conditions of Rwandans. Back to that, when I say it’s an open-air prison in Rwanda, the borders of Rwanda are closed around the whole country, especially the Uganda and the Burundi borders, but the Uganda border has been a big source of controversy. So Rwandans, even when they’re starving, cannot even leave the country to go and shop across the border. The ones who obviously live near Uganda, they actually have relatives. They can’t even go visit their relatives on the other side of the border. A woman, a pregnant woman was killed a few months ago for trying to cross, shot by the Rwandan police. Multiple people have been shot including Ugandan citizens.
Of course, there’s the recent story of famous Rwandan singer, gospel singer, a beloved figure in the country, he’s a symbol of peace, reconciliation, and especially justice because you can’t have any of those without justice, was arrested near the border of Burundi. He was actually still inside of Rwanda. Four days later, he turned up dead and the government of Rwanda claimed that he committed suicide which is absolutely a big lie because-
Jacqueline Luqm…: Now, let me pause you for a second there because we’re talking about a singer, Kizito Mihigo, who, as you said, very beloved in Rwanda, not an obscure name. Not to say that people who are not famous deserve to be forgotten in the repression campaigns of Paul Kagame, but this was a death that was not going to go unnoticed in Rwanda. Can you tell us a little bit about how the response to Mihigo’s death has been in Rwanda and what people are saying in the country about his death and the circumstances surrounding his death and people’s response to the Kagame administration now?
Claude Gatebuke: The death of Kizito, I can’t call it a death in good faith. Anybody that does that is not operating in good faith. The assassination of Kizito Mihigo by the government of Rwanda devastated Rwandans. The general population, every person, every generation was touched by Kizito through his music and his message of peace and reconciliation, and just acknowledging the fact … So here’s his crime, why the government of Rwanda started going after him.
Jacqueline Luqm…: Yes.
Claude Gatebuke: Kizito Mihigo sang a song in 2014 called [foreign language 00:08:06] which means The Meaning of Death. In that song, he was comforting victims and survivors of the genocide, Tutsi people, who suffered a genocide in 1994. It was also comforting people who died in other circumstances including those who were killed in crimes not recognized as genocide, which basically that indicts the RPF, the government in power in Rwanda. Soon after that, he was disappeared. He went missing for over a week. Then they produced him and they paraded him in front of the media with handcuffs. That’s the first time I actually personally heard of him. I didn’t actually know a lot about him. Then I just started looking into the case because it was really weird to have somebody in handcuffs paraded in front of media to make a statement without a lawyer and then-
Jacqueline Luqm…: Yes.
Claude Gatebuke: … have a court case after that. They made him apologize. We have secret audios where he talks about what they did to him. They tortured him. They beat him. He was in the office of the … When they beat him, he was in the office of, and it’s in the secret audio, the cabinet, the president’s cabinet leader. Then they made him confess to a crime that he didn’t commit. They sentenced him to 10 years in prison, then pardoned him in 2018 after four years, and they kept him basically imprisoned because just last week, they arrested him and claimed that he was attempting to leave Rwanda when, in fact, the people who had him arrested said he was 10 minutes away from the border and he was laying down or sleeping.
So he wasn’t even anywhere crossing the border. This was before any crossing happened. It was inside of Rwanda which he’s allowed to do, and there was no crime being committed. Then of course they paraded, they showed pictures of him. He looked like he was touring like a tourist. Then they arrested him. He died four days later in custody, killed. Then they claimed it was suicide. The people were devastated. That’s what I wanted to get to. Everybody is mourning in Rwanda. For the last two weeks, there’s been mourning all over the world. There’s been church services everywhere for Kizito Mihigo. That is the most protesting you will ever see from Rwandans which is a sign of repression by the way.
The simple fact that people even went to the funeral … Normally when somebody like that dies that the government doesn’t like, people don’t show up to the funeral. There’s a handful of people. This time, thousands of people showed up. That’s the biggest protest we’ve ever seen in Rwanda. Some of the people interviewed, one journalist said that he noticed there was cuts on his face and bruises on his forehead. There was other people who were interviewed that said, “You know what? He got killed just like everybody else.” Basically killing somebody is business as usual, but Kizito is no ordinary person. That’s why the whole world, at least Rwandans all over the world, are mourning. Like I said, every continent has had a service, something to acknowledge and pay tribute to him.
So those are really the … This is the first time Rwandans have united to protest against an injustice. A lot of them are doing it in a timid way by just holding church services. A lot of people have spoken out which is why a lot of the media reports now are saying, “You know what? This story of suicide cannot be believed. It’s under dispute.” Even when you look at the conditions, they say that he hung himself with a bed sheet.
Jacqueline Luqm…: Sounds familiar.
Claude Gatebuke: Give me a break. Right.
Jacqueline Luqm…: You speak to just the beloved nature of this man and the fact that the international community, Rwandans throughout the diaspora, are protesting in their own way against his death, but then there is the issue of the secret recordings, which we have some of the secret recordings where he describes what was done to him.
Speaker 3: In the days following the song’s release, I received insults and threats and messages saying something bad would happen to me. I was invited for an interview with president’s chief of staff which took place in the office of the senate president who was, at the time, the senate vice president. They said the president didn’t like my song and I should write a letter asking for a pardon. The chief of staff and senate vice president said if I didn’t do what they said, I was a dead man. I was put on the floor and beaten on the buttocks. The deputy police chief came to see me and said if I continued to ask forgiveness during my trial, things would be easy, but if I pleaded not guilty and tried to denounce injustices which had been done to me, they’d give me a life sentence and I would die in prison.
Jacqueline Luqm…: So we received those recordings from News Channel 4 in England and now, these recordings are being played for an international audience. What do you think the response is going to be of the Kagame government to the release of these recordings in particular?
Claude Gatebuke: Denial as usual and basically saying that these aren’t true recordings of his voice, but we know that these can be authenticated. Where he sent them is our trusted places, and these were conversations that he was having with real people. The response to the audios and to the international community responding the way it’s responding basically with, at least at a minimum for once, skepticism on the story that Kagame’s presenting is going to be force, more repression against Rwandans and more repression against those of us who are spreading the news, but the fact that it’s very public is going to be really difficult. So I think they’re going to go on a big PR campaign to try to sanitize the image of Kagame which is what they do. They commit atrocities and then they [inaudible 00:15:31] to make people forget.
What we’re doing is to make sure that this is not forgotten and this is the last time that they assassinate or massacre people and get away with it and that Kizito Mihigo, a symbol of peace in Rwanda, and his work and his legacy will not go to waste. So they’re going to lobby. They’re going to spend a lot of money on lobbyist, a lot of money on PR, and also they are running a smear campaign and dehumanization campaign against Kizito Mihigo. They’re having people who are supporters of the government running opinion pieces and other things and talking about conversations they had with him dehumanizing him, saying that he dirtied the genocide survivors’ memory and that he should not have sang the song.
The song is really the central point of it. Again, the point of contention is if the crimes that the RPF acknowledged, then the whole story and narrative of Kagame and the RPF being saviors in the genocide instead of one of the perpetrators, it goes out the window. I personally, what I know, based on what I know, Kagame and the RPF were just also perpetrators during the genocide. I have testimony on video, on audio too, from some of Kagame’s bodyguards. One is James [Munyandinda 00:17:18]. I’ve also spoken to [inaudible 00:17:22]. They have testified that the RPF sent units of their soldiers to mix in with the militia, the [inter-army 00:17:33] militia that committed the genocide in 1994 against Tutsi people, to mix in and go and massacre Tutsis, but there’s also other evidence where Paul Kagame himself has admitted to sacrificing Tutsis who lived inside of Rwanda before 1994 by slowing down his war efforts and being really slow to move and General Dallaire, the Canadian peacekeeper, asked him, “Hey, finish the war faster so that people can be saved.” He refused. He said-
Jacqueline Luqm…: Wow.
Claude Gatebuke: … “We’ll finish the war on our own pace.” They also asked him, “Are you not concerned about all of these people that are being killed, all the Tutsis that are being slaughtered?” He said, “In order to win the war, there’s got to be sacrifices.” So all of this, Kagame’s not ready for it to come out and it’s the narrative that keeps the international community, including the US, supporting Kagame and saying that they made a mistake and they left him to be the sole savior during the genocide and therefore, they cannot speak or take any action against him which, again, is based on a false premise which is slowly and slowly getting destroyed.
The death and the killing of Kizito Mihigo is going to destroy this narrative even more because there are a lot of people who survived the genocide that the RPF actually recognizes because they don’t recognize or acknowledge or accept many of us who survived the genocide as survivors because we will not basically go along with the narrative of the RPF. We just tell the story as we know it. There are many who were previously pushing the same narrative that the RPF pushes. Now with the death of Kizito, they’ve turned their backs. So the truth is coming out. It just happens to be … Losing the right term for it, but unintended consequences. The unintended consequences of killing Kizito which was they wanted to scare people into silence, there’s even more people speaking out now. There are more people outraged.
Jacqueline Luqm…: The exact opposite has happened of what they have intended.
Claude Gatebuke: Yes.
Jacqueline Luqm…: We’ve got a couple of minutes left, and I want you to tie all of this together with to what the United States’ interest in this issue and the Kagame administration is because from what I understand, the Rwanda Development Board has just reported that the Kagame administration has attracted $2.4 billion of foreign investments. That’s up from last year which was supposed to be $2.1 billion. This is an amount of money that is actually more money in foreign investments than Rwanda has collected the past eight years. So that’s an interesting point, but-
Claude Gatebuke: Definitely.
Jacqueline Luqm…: … the US … Yeah, but US business interest in Rwanda is expanding not necessarily through government interests, but through private interest in coffee, energy, and mining. So explain why that is important to what is going on in Rwanda right now.
Claude Gatebuke: Yes, so let me start with what does this have to do with the American people, audience. We are paying for a lot of these atrocities because when you give resources to a war criminal like Paul Kagame, they commit more crimes because you give him resources. So people should know, US citizens should know that the US is a donor to Paul Kagame who turns around and basically uses our money to kill the people in Rwanda and the Congo. So I’m getting to the resource part.
Jacqueline Luqm…: Right.
Claude Gatebuke: Private entities benefiting from this, from Paul Kagame’s reign, that’s the main, really the fuel if you will. The contracts … So I’m not actually sure about those numbers because it’s been shown in previous reports that a lot of the numbers coming out of Rwanda are inflated and they’re fake. However, even without the fake numbers, there’s a real issue. Rwanda doesn’t have a lot of … Coffee for sure, yes, is the main export material. Energy, there’s very little that would come out of Rwanda, Lake Kivu definitely being one of the suppliers which previously there was actually a dispute between Rwanda the country and a Canadian company fighting over contracts.
Then there’s mines that are being looted, plundered from the Congo. Rwanda is the top exporter, I believe if I read the recent reports correctly, or one of the top exporters of coltan. There’s no coltan in Rwanda. Coltan is in the Congo. Coltan is used to power our cellphones and a bunch of other electronics. There’s also other minerals like uranium and others in the Congo that are found in the Congo, copper, that are … Rwanda is the transit point and a conduit to Western mining companies. There’s a bunch of Western mining companies in the Congo that are exploiting the Congolese people, supporting these various warlords or supporting militias that are formed by the Rwandan military and soldiers to go and take over these mining towns and displace people and then go in there and mine and take the resources. There’s a website, conflictminerals.org, that has a list of those companies that are mostly Canadian, Australian, American, British, French, Belgian, and then a few others from around the world.
So the resources is one. The other is this cover or hiding behind Kagame having the moral authority to basically do whatever he wants because he “stopped” the genocide which is incorrect that has the US providing political and diplomatic cover. The way this has happened in the past is when there are reports showing the atrocities by Rwanda’s military, especially its top leaders, General James [Kabarebe 00:24:38], General Charles [Kayonga 00:24:40], General [Jacques Nziza 00:24:41], reported in these major reports and others, the US has blocked the reports, especially at the UN, from being released until they were leaked in the media. So that’s the diplomatic cover and political cover. Then facilitates these US businesses which there’s nothing wrong with just going to do business as long as it’s honest business, but-
Jacqueline Luqm…: Sure.
Claude Gatebuke: … going there to use basically a proxy army, the Rwandan military, to go into the Congo, destroy the villages … Today, just this weekend, there were massacres in a town called Beni which is also in eastern Congo where there’s a lot of mining towns and a lot of these mines are located. There are massacres happening in Beni today. B-E-N-I for those who would like to look it up. All of this has a hand of US policy and US businesses. Paul Kagame just happens to be a conduit and the latest by the way … Let me just say this. He is the latest puppet of the US who will most likely be disposed of just like Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden and others that the US has previously supported. So he is one in a long line of friendly tyrants. Previously in the region was Mobuto Sese Seko of the Congo. Now today, you have Paul Kagame and Museveni of … Kagame of Rwanda and Museveni of Uganda.
Jacqueline Luqm…: So Claude, this is … I always like to wrap these conversations up with how people can learn how to support the efforts of your organization and how people can work to bring accountability to those who have been so far unaccountable for their actions and that’s Paul Kagame and also the protect the dissidents who are speaking out against him. How can people get involved?
Claude Gatebuke: So a couple of things. Reach out to us through our website, aglan.org. A-G-L-A-N.org. There are a number of other organizations that we are in coalition with that we’ll connect with, but if you start with us. Continue to follow us on social media and spread our message and the message that we’re sharing, but more importantly, we’re getting involved. There’s an effort by Nobel Peace Prize winner, a doctor in the Congo who’s been doing amazing work to fix women who-
Jacqueline Luqm…: Yes.
Claude Gatebuke: … brutally, brutally assaulted and raped. So he’s been doing amazing work with them and he won a Nobel Peace Prize for them. What he’s calling for is a mechanism to bring justice to the victims of the crimes documented in a report. It’s called the UN Mapping Exercise Report for the Congo. It came out 10 years ago in 2010, October 1, 2010. The report has been there. It documents some horrible crimes, and what we’re doing is supporting those efforts to bring about justice for those victims. So we ask that the viewers and the followers to check with us so we can guide them on how to get involved in terms of supporting this mechanism. Part of it will be involving actually American US officials obviously.
Jacqueline Luqm…: Yes, obviously. Claude, I cannot thank you enough for explaining why the crimes, the ongoing crimes of Paul Kagame in Rwanda and in the Congo are important issues for American viewers and for our viewers internationally. So thank you so much for your work and your witness, Claude. Thank you for your time today.
Claude Gatebuke: Thank you for having me.
Jacqueline Luqm…: Thank you for watching. This is Jacqueline Luqman with The Real News Network in Washington, DC.
Studio: Bababtunde Ogunfolaju, Cameron Granadino
Production: Genevieve Montinar, Cameron Granadino
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therealnews--2020-03-27--Will The Baltimore Orioles Step Up To The Plate For Their Concession Workers?

Major League Baseball has pledged $ 1 million per team for ballpark employees facing financial hardship from the delay of the baseball season because of the coronavirus , but hundreds of concession workers who serve food at Baltimore Orioles games don ’ t know if they will be paid .
The 700 concession workers are contractors employed by Delaware North and serve everything from beer to hotdogs and popcorn at home games in Baltimore .
They are represented by Unite Here Local 7 , who organized a conference call with reporters on March 26 about lost wages .
“ Me @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of relief from the economic impacts that the quarantine has had on us , “ said Nnameke Onejeme , the chief shop steward of Local 7 .
“ We know that Major League Baseball has made the money available , and we ’ re eager to use that money to care for all families during this crisis.
” Roxie Herbekian , president of Local 7 , is requesting the Orioles and owner Peter Angelos pay workers for the first 40 home games , which will likely be canceled due to COVID-19 : “ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and paycheck , ” she said .
The union has circulated an online petition urging the Orioles to join teams like the National Hockey League ’ s Chicago Black Hawks and the National Basketball Association ’ s Dallas Mavericks who have committed to pay stadium workers while sporting events are shut down .
Forbes estimated the Orioles ’ worth at $ 1.2 billion in 2019—up from the $ 173 million the Angelos family paid for the team in 1993 .
State taxpayers spent $ 210 million to help build Oriole Park at Camden @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the human rights group United Workers threatened a hunger strike as part of a successful campaign to gain a iiving wage for the workers that clean Camden Yards .
In 2015 , tweets by Orioles Executive Vice President John Angelos defending the Baltimore Uprising ( sparked by the killing of 25-year-old Freddie Gray in police custody ) went viral after a conservative radio host criticised protestors for disrupting an Orioles game .
“ There is a far bigger picture for poor Americans in Baltimore … who don ’ t have jobs and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , ” Angelos tweeted .
“ This makes inconvenience at a ball game irrelevant in light of the needless suffering government is inflicting upon ordinary Americans.
” “ It ’ s been our experience over the years that the Orioles have been sensitive to the needs of our members.
” Local 7 President Herbekian said , noting that lost wages from games canceled in 2015 were paid .
Local 7 Chief Steward Onejeme , a recent graduate from the University of Baltimore who makes $ 12.90 an hour after working at Camden Yards @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the stadium usually functions as his second job to pay back college loans .
“ Even though my work has stopped my bills have not , ” he said .
” I owe tens of thousands of dollars for education , must pay rent , insurance , I need to buy food , I need to be able to get medicine.
” Charlotte Chatel is 62 years old and has worked at Orioles games for half her life .
She recently had a kidney transplant and says she relies on her earnings to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 800 a month .
“ Unemployment is not enough , I can ’ t live on that , ’ Chatel said .
Her husband is also out of work right now , and she helps care for her grandchildren .
“ We could use the help , ” she said .
George Hancock , who made $ 12.50 an hour last year after working at Camden Yards for the past decade , said he is relying on his job to help support his mother who is close to retiring , and a nephew @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ ve been committed workers , we come to work and smile , even when we don ’ t feel well , ” Hancock said .
“ We just want them to do right by us.
” The Baltimore Orioles and Delaware North did not respond to requests for comment by time of publication .

Major League Baseball has pledged $1 million per team for ballpark employees facing financial hardship from the delay of the baseball season because of the coronavirus, but hundreds of concession workers who serve food at Baltimore Orioles games don’t know if they will be paid.
The 700 concession workers are contractors employed by Delaware North and serve everything from beer to hotdogs and popcorn at home games in Baltimore. They are represented by Unite Here Local 7, who organized a conference call with reporters on March 26 about lost wages.
“Me and my coworkers are in desperate need of relief from the economic impacts that the quarantine has had on us,“ said Nnameke Onejeme, the chief shop steward of Local 7. “We know that Major League Baseball has made the money available, and we’re eager to use that money to care for all families during this crisis.”
Roxie Herbekian, president of Local 7, is requesting the Orioles and owner Peter Angelos pay workers for the first 40 home games, which will likely be canceled due to COVID-19: “A lot of our members live paycheck and paycheck,” she said.
The union has circulated an online petition urging the Orioles to join teams like the National Hockey League’s Chicago Black Hawks and the National Basketball Association’s Dallas Mavericks who have committed to pay stadium workers while sporting events are shut down.
Forbes estimated the Orioles’ worth at $1.2 billion in 2019—up from the $173 million the Angelos family paid for the team in 1993. State taxpayers spent $210 million to help build Oriole Park at Camden Yards. In 2007, 11 members of the human rights group United Workers threatened a hunger strike as part of a successful campaign to gain a iiving wage for the workers that clean Camden Yards. In 2015, tweets by Orioles Executive Vice President John Angelos defending the Baltimore Uprising (sparked by the killing of 25-year-old Freddie Gray in police custody) went viral after a conservative radio host criticised protestors for disrupting an Orioles game.
“There is a far bigger picture for poor Americans in Baltimore … who don’t have jobs and are losing economic civil and legal rights,” Angelos tweeted. “This makes inconvenience at a ball game irrelevant in light of the needless suffering government is inflicting upon ordinary Americans.”
“It’s been our experience over the years that the Orioles have been sensitive to the needs of our members.” Local 7 President Herbekian said, noting that lost wages from games canceled in 2015 were paid.
Local 7 Chief Steward Onejeme, a recent graduate from the University of Baltimore who makes $12.90 an hour after working at Camden Yards for nine years, says working at the stadium usually functions as his second job to pay back college loans.
“Even though my work has stopped my bills have not,” he said. ”I owe tens of thousands of dollars for education, must pay rent, insurance, I need to buy food, I need to be able to get medicine.”
Charlotte Chatel is 62 years old and has worked at Orioles games for half her life. She recently had a kidney transplant and says she relies on her earnings to pay for medication, which costs $800 a month.
“Unemployment is not enough, I can’t live on that,’ Chatel said.
Her husband is also out of work right now, and she helps care for her grandchildren. “We could use the help,” she said.
George Hancock, who made $12.50 an hour last year after working at Camden Yards for the past decade, said he is relying on his job to help support his mother who is close to retiring, and a nephew who has a disability.
“We’ve been committed workers, we come to work and smile, even when we don’t feel well,” Hancock said. “We just want them to do right by us.”
The Baltimore Orioles and Delaware North did not respond to requests for comment by time of publication.
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Nationalization Roundtable

With the advent of COVID-19 and an unprecedented economic shock , measures that were a month ago far outside the mainstream policy debate have moved to center stage .
One of the most startling—at least to those unfamiliar with the history of US federal policy responses to previous crises—is nationalization .
For instance , New York State governor Andrew Cuomo—hardly known as a champion of the radical left—has taken to Twitter to demand Donald Trump nationalize the supply chains for essential medical supplies .
Meanwhile , demands from the grassroots are getting bolder—environmental group Food and Water Watch , for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ demand to use public ownership of the fossil fuel industry to protect workers while winding the sector down .
As more sectors of the economy stagger or rush towards collapse in the COVID shock , calls for nationalization are only going to get louder .
Join us for a one-hour webinar roundtable sorting out the surprising history of nationalization in the US , the demands currently on the table , and what we need to know in order to make sure nationalization is used to make a more democratic economy , not set @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
With : • Kate Aronoff , staff writer at The New Republic , and author of “ A Moderate Proposal : Nationalize the Fossil Fuel Industry ” • Thomas Hanna , Director of Research at The Democracy Collaborative , and author of “ A History of Nationalization in the US : 1917-2009 ” • Robert Hockett , Edward Cornell Professor of Law at Cornell University School of Law , Visiting Professor of Finance at Georgetown University ’ s McDonough School of Business , Fellow with New Consensus , and author of “ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Supplies America Needs to Fight Coronavirus ” • Alexander Sammon , staff writer at The American Prospect , and author of “ It ’ s Time to Nationalize the Airlines ” Organized by The Next System Project at The Democracy Collaborative

With the advent of COVID-19 and an unprecedented economic shock, measures that were a month ago far outside the mainstream policy debate have moved to center stage. One of the most startling—at least to those unfamiliar with the history of US federal policy responses to previous crises—is nationalization. For instance, New York State governor Andrew Cuomo—hardly known as a champion of the radical left—has taken to Twitter to demand Donald Trump nationalize the supply chains for essential medical supplies. Meanwhile, demands from the grassroots are getting bolder—environmental group Food and Water Watch, for instance, has gone public with a demand to use public ownership of the fossil fuel industry to protect workers while winding the sector down. As more sectors of the economy stagger or rush towards collapse in the COVID shock, calls for nationalization are only going to get louder. Join us for a one-hour webinar roundtable sorting out the surprising history of nationalization in the US, the demands currently on the table, and what we need to know in order to make sure nationalization is used to make a more democratic economy, not set up a post-crisis reconsolidation of corporate power. With: • Kate Aronoff, staff writer at The New Republic, and author of “A Moderate Proposal: Nationalize the Fossil Fuel Industry” • Thomas Hanna, Director of Research at The Democracy Collaborative, and author of “A History of Nationalization in the US: 1917-2009” • Robert Hockett, Edward Cornell Professor of Law at Cornell University School of Law, Visiting Professor of Finance at Georgetown University’s McDonough School of Business, Fellow with New Consensus, and author of “How to Mobilize the Military to Produce the Supplies America Needs to Fight Coronavirus” • Alexander Sammon, staff writer at The American Prospect, and author of “It’s Time to Nationalize the Airlines” Organized by The Next System Project at The Democracy Collaborative
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