therealnews--2020-03-24--The Clock Is Ticking On Keeping Incarcerated Citizens Safe

As COVID-19 spreads , experts call for the release of the most vulnerable people in prisons and jails .

As COVID-19 spreads, experts call for the release of the most vulnerable people in prisons and jails.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Eddie Conway: Welcome to the Real News. I’m Eddie Conway coming to you from Baltimore. Welcome to this episode of [inaudible 00:00:12] also.
Recently there’s been a ton of news on prisons and prisoners locked down based on this coronavirus. The fact is that prisoners are in probably the most vulnerable positions of any other people in society. Now America has over 3 million people locked down either in prisons or jails, and we need to look at what’s happening here in America with the prison system itself and we also need to look at what’s happening around the world.
In Brazil, there has been riots and mass escapes. In Italy, there’s been at least 27 riots. At some point Italy had decided to let some prisoners out. In Iran they let out 70,000 prisoners, temporarily released. And then other places around the world, prisoners are now in jeopardy.
So joining me today to look at what’s going on here in America, is Sarah Vert, who was the former head of the Federal Prison Program Disease Infectious Unit. Also with me is Tyrone Walker, who works for the Justice Policy Institute and he spent some time inside the prison system, so he can give us some insight. And also we’re being joined by Keith Wallington, who is the statewide strategy coordinator for Justice Policy.
So I want to start off talking to Sarah. First place, thanks for joining me, all three of you. [crosstalk 00:02:29] Sarah, can you basically give us an overview of what the conditions are in the prison system itself in terms of disease prevention and while you’re doing that, give us an understanding of what prison officials across the country should be doing?
Sarah: Sure, Eddie. You characterized it beautifully. Back in 2007, I was working on the pandemic influenza plan for the Federal Bureau of Prisons, and I felt like I was the only person in the world thinking about this problem. It just is stunning what is now happening is coming true, all those imaginings I had. When you cram as many human beings together in one place as we do in this country, it’s a setup for serious infectious disease issues. This has just gone unrecognized, I think. The public health consequences of mass incarceration are very significant, and I lived with that every day with TB outbreaks and norovirus outbreaks. And now here we are with pandemic flu.
At this point, CDC has not yet issued guidance with regards to correctional management for COVID-19. We’re awaiting it. It should be out in the next three or four days. In that vacuum, I’ve been working with a private correctional healthcare company that is a very progressive company, and have written a plan with the former medical director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons. Viola Riggins, the head of this company, has now distributed that to correctional health officials in every state. So they may have something.
Let’s talk about what should be done. First, Eddie, I think you’re absolutely right on thinking about releasing inmates that are low risk and are older or have those medical conditions that place you at risk, things like diabetes, heart disease and lung disease. We have a brief window of time where that will work before it gains entrance into our facilities. We will unlikely to be able to release people once it’s in there because then the released prisoners will become vectors of the disease. But right now we have a very brief window of opportunity. So that goes well beyond my experience how you do that, but this is the moment in time when we need to address mass incarceration head on and figure out how to release people quickly.
That said, once in the prison, there’s basic fundamentals of election control and so the plan that we wrote covers that. You got to have good administration and coordination to make sure that you’ve got good planning and that you’re communicating effectively with inmates, with staff and with families of incarcerated persons.
You’ve been hearing about shutting down visits, volunteers, lawyer visits, and that’s an effort to try to prevent this from coming in. And yet has potentially dire consequences in terms of mental health. I’m sure it’s one of the reasons for the riots in these other places. As they do that, they really need to figure out ways to keep folks engaged and busy with other things when they don’t have their usual access.
Employee screening is now being recommended by the Federal Bureau of Prisons for all employees who work in places where there’s community transmission of the virus. So, in California, New York, Washington state, employee screening is recommended.
So new intakes should be screened and hopefully you’re really reducing your number of new intakes. I read yesterday that LA has reduced the number of arrests from 300 to 60. I know that Baltimore is doing some similar things. And this is really sensible to reduce the number of intakes to only those people that really pose a risk to society.
And then once you’ve identified the people that potentially have respiratory symptoms among the incarcerated population, we need to immediately put a surgical mask on them and evaluate them for COVID-19. And ideally isolate them from the rest of the population while awaiting a workup. As you know the testing is really iffy and so each correctional facility across the nation is going to have to be working with their local health department, I can’t emphasize that enough, so that they can figure this out together.
Also figuring out plans for where you’re going to send these people, so if people get severely short of breath. So making arrangements with your local hospital so that you have direct access when you need it to transport an incarcerated person to the hospital.
The personal protective equipment crisis is truly a crisis, and one of the reasons for this whole thing that you’ve been hearing about, flattening the curve, is so that production of mass respirators and gowns and gloves can be ramped up because we have nowhere near enough. I was just astonished that CDC had released guidance to use bandanas, homemade masks. I’ve never seen such a thing in all my career. And so once you’re isolating inmates with this disease, they need to be evaluated regularly to make sure that you’re picking up if they have symptoms that are severe to get them out.
And then quarantine is another strategy for incarcerated prisoners that are known to be exposed. So let’s say you have a case in a housing unit, you pull that case out, you isolate or cohort them with other people with similar illness. Then you need to protect the rest of the population from getting it. So quarantine is another strategy to … And I strongly recommend that if it’s possible that we have some kind of masks for these people so that if somebody gets sick they’re not infecting the rest of the population. So that’s a really quick overview of what’s involved in a correctional pandemic plan.
Eddie Conway: Okay, all right. I will come back to you. Keith, in the state of Maryland, I understand that Governor Hogan recently made a statement that prisoners were the safest of all populations because they were already quarantined. How do you address that statement and what’s the reality of prisoners in the state of Maryland?
Keith Wallingto…: I think it’s somewhat of an irresponsible statement because the governor himself could order release plans that safely allows these folks to come back into the communities. So to say that we’re keeping these folks incarcerated because that’s where they’re safest to me is a cop out. You’re just punting the ball on that.
I agree with your other guest 100% on a lot of the things she said, particularly with the plans on the inside. But there are other things that we can be doing as well. Particularly Maryland, as you know just to be blunt, has a broken parole system. There are things we could do, like the other guest said, you could begin, right now, release medically vulnerable and older incarcerated people in Maryland.
Maryland has too many senior citizens in prison. Really we’re talking about releasing people who should have and would have already been out if Maryland had a well functioning parole system. The state can use this opportunity to give priority to releasing older individuals who are at risk and are vulnerable or who suffer from chronic illnesses, making them more susceptible to COVID-19. Then obviously give priority to those who fit the medically vulnerable criteria and who are set to be released on parole or mandatory release within the next five years.
These recommendations are not unique to us. These are recommendations that organizations like us, who have a great understanding of the corrections system, are putting forth around the country. I think because Maryland has a pretty substantial geriatric population, it obviously creates a bigger risk for the individuals and all it takes is one case. One case to get inside and it can devastate an incarcerated community.
I just really think this … I hate to keep [inaudible 00:12:24] but I think this issue [inaudible 00:12:28] speaks to Maryland’s need for a better functioning parole system. Like I said, if that were the case we would not be talking about having so many geriatric individuals that are inside now that could be potentially exposed to this.
Maryland has a large population of individuals over 60, 70 and even 80 years old. Maryland has a handful of individuals that are 80 years old, who can barely walk to the bathroom or do anything else on their own [inaudible 00:13:04] pose a threat to public safety.
I’ll stop there, I don’t want to get too far out in left field. But, again, this issue with COVID-19 highlights the larger issue that Maryland’s parole system is broken and particularly those that suffer the most as a result of this parole system right now is the older geriatric population, those that are also the most vulnerable out in society.
Eddie Conway: Okay, Ty, can you give me the World Health Organization basically suggested that everybody maintain a social distance of six feet or so apart from other people. From just looking in prisons, how crowded and how close are people in their proximities in terms of eating, be locked in the cells, et cetera? Is this something that’s going to eventually … If one case happens, like in Rikers Island there was a case and now probably there’s a case for the guard, there’s a case for inmate and now there’s even additional cases popping up. How do you get social distance in that crowded situation?
Tyrone Walker: Thank you for that question, Eddie. With approximately 2.3 million people in our prisons across the nation, there is no such thing as social distancing. Either you’re going to be housed according to your security classification level. If you’re in a maximum security, you will be housed with another individual. If you in a medium security, you will be housed with probably two or three people. But when you get to a lower level institutional custody classification, you could be housed with anywhere from 4 up to 200 different people in one living setting. So to have social distancing, that is not possible.
As I know right now today, those individuals who are living within those housing units, whether it’s 75 people or 200 people, they are all going to the dining hall at the same time or with another unit. So you’re saying coming into the dining hall where people are lined up behind each other to get their food who are two or three feet away from each other, not six feet, two or three feet away from each other getting their food. They’re all sitting at these tables where it’s nothing less than four people per table. So there can be no social distancing. And they’re also limiting recreation too. As we know they keep them all inside where we need to have social distancing and it’s a really trying time.
As you point out [inaudible 00:16:25] of Rikers Island, and right now here today in DC we have quarantine of 67 [inaudible 00:16:32] who may have been infected with this disease. So we spread out throughout the jails not only our geriatric population but people who are diabetics, hypertension and people who have some type of respiratorial issues. They are at risk of being infected once it spread throughout the prison system.
Eddie Conway: Sarah, can you tell me … Obviously the CDC, that’s responsible for the health of everybody in America, what are they doing? What efforts have they put forth to look after the prison population? What are they advocating?
Sarah: Eddie, I have been so frustrated and dismayed in general with regards to CDC. That said, there’s been many individuals that I’ve worked with at the CDC over the years who have been wonderful. But as an institution, the CDC has failed to provide public health support to our nation’s 2.3 million incarcerated. It is just stunning to me that when you think of the public health consequences, my job every day was preventing and controlling infectious diseases for 150,000 inmates in 122 prisons. And every day there was something crazy going on with regards to disease transmission because of how closely combined people are.
The CDC does not have one full-time equivalent staff person that os dedicated to corrections. So there is a nicely functioning new little corrections subcommittee where everybody’s volunteering their time to work on it, but it’s not their full-time job, and I just think it’s wrong. There’s a huge infrastructure for supporting hospital infection control. And there is zero infrastructure for supporting correctional infection prevention and control.
And this goes back, this is not a Trump administration problem. This goes back to the Bush era, to the Obama era and now currently. And I think it’s the reason at March 20 that we still don’t have guidelines out, because there just hasn’t been dedicated staff that their whole focus is how do we prevent and control disease transmission in corrections.
Eddie Conway: My concern, and I’m going to stick with you on this, Sarah, is that eventually we know that cases are going to pop up in the prison system and it’s going to be transmitted back out to the community through the guards’ constant interaction in terms of interacting with the prisoners and ultimately going home to the communities and families. And I heard you say that they were going to screen the personnel, but is there testing? Is there even tests available? I understand that people outside are having problems getting tested even when they show clear signs and symptoms because there’s a lack of tests. How devastating is this going to be if this spreads like wildfire through the prison system and then eventually back out via the guards?
Sarah: It’s going to be devastating on all levels. So you’ve got the devastation on the inside, which is that people may not make it. And then you’re right, correctional officers are going to come in. If we’ve got an outbreak going on in a prison they’re going to be potentially bringing it home.
Testing is not particularly useful nor recommended for people that don’t have symptoms. And so, at this point, CDC has a fairly strict criteria for testing and it only includes people with symptoms. It wouldn’t be useful to test. The recommended screening for correctional officers when they come in, if they’re in one of these sustained transmission communities, is a temperature and a screen for respiratory symptoms, which will be somewhat helpful.
It’s likely that this will be brought in not only by new intakes but also by correctional officers, by staff, by visitors. But then you’re absolutely right, Eddie, it’s going to … Maybe that’s a good argument for being serious about reducing population is that the effect on the guards.
Another huge issue is correctional officers are not the happiest group of employees in general in my experience, and they are going to probably just not come in. And then what do we have?
Eddie Conway: Yeah. Keith, can you tell me what families can do or should be doing? What can be done right now if you’ve got a family member, a loved one, a friend or somebody that you care about locked away in the prison system if they are over 60, if they have respiratory or other illnesses? What can the families do and what should they be doing?
Keith Wallingto…: That’s a great question. The short answer is I don’t know because with visitation being cut off and until there’s some type of communications policy put in place, whether that’s video or phone, whatnot, that’s a great question. One would be to call the governor. This is a very unorthodox time and unfortunately our loved ones are being cut off from [inaudible 00:23:15] right now. I can’t imagine how traumatizing it is not being able to communicate both from [inaudible 00:23:22] inside but for the families also to not knowing what’s going on and also knowing that our incarcerated population are all probably sitting … They’re the most vulnerable. In terms of sitting ducks they are the most vulnerable population right now.
My thing right now is reach out to the governor and to let the governor know that saying that prison is the safest location [inaudible 00:23:48] right now is we’re not going to accept that. That’s just not true. The governor, like I said, has the authority to [inaudible 00:23:55] reentry plans for these individuals.
Eddie Conway: Ty, can you weigh in on that? What do you think family members, friends and associates should be doing now to try to bring some relief or protection to prison populations?
Tyrone Walker: As Keith echoed that the governor has the authority to create these release plans for these individuals, which he’s not interested in doing. But in the meantime we can stay in close contact with our family via [inaudible 00:24:38] I know the times are trying for everyone. Making sure they got money so they can get all the necessities, because know how the prison population as far as medical care is at a zero. So making sure that they’ll be able to get vitamins and making sure that they got money to buy water and all the other extensions that they need to survive while they are there. I think that’s [inaudible 00:25:10].
As I say this this morning, I sent my loved one money, made sure he had all the other things that he needed. I asked him if he needed anything else to let me know, and I would do my best to make sure he get those.
Eddie Conway: Any organizations or groups or activist movements that can be contacted so people can maybe join together and put pressure on government officials or even local officials to see if at least the most vulnerable of the populations can be released? I’m not opposed to them being parole, but that’s a long process. It seemed to me that they could find a different way if there was some mass support. I know it’s difficult to have mass support when we are sheltering in place, but there seems to be organizations that could put some pressure on somebody. Are you aware of any?
Tyrone Walker: Well, yes. Just this morning I was on the call with it’s called the Thrive@25 Coalition, and there’s been letters drafted up. FAM was also part of that call, FAM has been sending out initiatives for all the federal officials to urge them to safely release people in the community who can be safely released into the community who are not a public safety threat. And DC Thrive@25 Coalition has been lobbying out officials here in DC to the same call. And it’s so many other organizations that I seen, Black Lives Matter is out, the Sentencing Project, [inaudible 00:27:08] Book Club, all these people, these organizations are coming together pushing these officials to make some type of release plan for those who can be safely released into the community.
Eddie Conway: Okay, all right. Thank you. We’ll probably have some of that information at the end of this video hopefully. Sarah, you get the last question, and it’s an open-ended thing. What do you think we should be doing now from this point going forward?
Sarah: Again, it’s outside of my purview as an infection preventionist, but it’s this getting the vulnerable out of the system as fast as we can. Most people are going to get this illness, most of our younger inmates are going to do fine. But the older inmates, the ones with these underlying conditions, are at very high risk of dying and that’s really unacceptable.
Eddie Conway: And it should probably be our priority in terms of advocating for release. That should probably be the top of our agenda in terms of local and state officials. Okay, thank you for joining me, Sarah, Ty, Keith. And I’m going to continue to follow this and we might have to come back again and talk some more about it.
Tyrone Walker: Absolutely, Eddie.
Keith Wallingto…: I would be happy to. Thank you so much for having us.
Sarah: Thank you, Eddie.
Tyrone Walker: Thank you, Eddie.
Eddie Conway: All right, and thank you for joining this episode of Rattling the Bars for the Real News Network.
Studio: Cameron Granadino
Production: Cameron Granadino, Ericka Blount
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therealnews--2020-03-24--COVID-19: Disinformation, Overwhelmed Healthcare System Fuel Crisis

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
Jaisal Noor : Animation illustrates how social distancing can save lives during the coronavirus pandemic .
The death toll from COVID-19 continues to rise with over 10,000 reported fatalities and close to a quarter of a million confirmed cases across 160 countries .
That number could be far higher , especially in countries like the United States .
The lack of available tests means there are potentially many more undetected cases and the government response has been slow , hampered by misinformation spread by President @ @ @ @ @ @ @ think we have it very well under control .
We have very little problem in this country .
Now the virus that we ’ re talking about having to do … A lot of people think that goes away in April with the heat .
They ’ re politicizing it , and this is their new hoax .
But we did something that ’ s been pretty amazing .
We have 15 people in this massive country and because of the fact that we went early , we went early , we could @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Jaisal Noor : Trump has finally begun acknowledging the scope of the threat and mobilizing the country to deal with it .
Donald Trump : We need millions of masks , and all of that will be ordered .
We need respirators .
We need ventilators is a big thing .
Jaisal Noor : But on March 9th , he compared it to the common flu .
He ’ s wrong .
Coronavirus is novel , which means it ’ s never been seen before , so our bodies lack the ability @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be deadly .
Congress has passed a bill that mandates free testing , but experts say treatment must also be free , arguing that ’ s a model South Korea has used with notable success .
We recently spoke with Lisa Gilbert , vice president of legislative affairs for the nonprofit consumer advocacy group Public Citizen that ’ s called on the president to resign because he poses a “ clear and present danger to the nation ’ s public health.
” Lisa Gilbert : I think this issue and the fear it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ our systematic underinvestment in our public health infrastructure for decades , and now that we are faced with a crisis , we don ’ t have the ability to quickly provide in a way that makes sense for the underinsured or just sort of across the board because of a lack of production of test kits or preparedness by our personnel .
We don ’ t have the ability to give people what they need and so folks are panicking .
One really crystal clear , easy , straightforward thing to do is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for both the tests and the treatment and take the confusion about what your insurance covers or doesn ’ t cover out of it .
People have been calling for that solution .
We think it makes a ton of sense both for this emergency and then also as a group that has long supported Medicare for All .
It ’ s sort of a encapsulated , obvious example for why we ’ ve been calling for that .
Jaisal Noor : And some people have pointed to South Korea that had some @ @ @ @ @ @ @ approach has been praised by some scientists and it may have sort of adopted this really aggressive testing .
Can you talk about that at all , what their experience has been ?
Lisa Gilbert : Yes .
I think the places where success is being had either in getting ahead of the virus and understanding who has it or containing it and kind of coming out the other side like they ’ re seeing in Hong Kong , it ’ s really the places where they ’ ve been the most aggressive @ @ @ @ @ @ @ re not used to taking action , taking our government seriously in that way and taking recommendations until they ’ re sort of mandates and the emergency has reached a higher level .
So , we were not ahead of the curve .
We did not take advantage of the time given to us by China ’ s containment and take early , quick measures to test aggressively and contain .
Now , we ’ re working to catch up .
I think we can , but it will take those kinds of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ quickly .
Jaisal Noor : Some people are calling for economic support as well for some of the workers that could be affected by this .
There ’ s been different proposals put forth by Democrats and now in the House and now even some Republicans are saying , even Donald Trump has said , “ Let ’ s make some direct cash payments.
” What do you think is the most effective way to give aid to people that have lost their jobs , lost their businesses ?
And , obviously , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ healthcare in this country as well .
Lisa Gilbert : Absolutely .
I think the congressional response has to be , and the White House response has to be comprehensive , has to take into account that everything that ’ s happening right now is hitting the U.S. economy incredibly hard .
We are looking at needing probably a federal fiscal stimulus that exceeds the response that we had in 2008 .
That ’ s going to mean everything from helping big corporations , but now doing that kind of stimulus in a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ doesn ’ t entrench money for CEOs and shareholders , but , instead , actually helps businesses stay afloat and trickles down to the rest of the economy .
It ’ s going to take massive investment in the social safety net , emergency appropriations , so that we can surge medical supplies , so that we can help provide childcare for people , especially healthcare workers , and then , of course , paid sick leave and unemployment insurance to help people who are unable to go to work , whether they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ unemployment insurance should be extended to gig workers and the self-employed , which we have many more of than we ’ ve ever had before .
I think that the bottom line , and I do think that Congress is actually doing a very good job on this front , is that responses need to be comprehensive .
There ’ s not sort of a single silver bullet where appropriated money should go .
We need to cover the waters and grapple with all the different problems that we ’ re facing because @ @ @ @ @ @ @ From what I was reading , what Congress had agreed to would exempt 80 % of workers , any worker that works for a business that has over 500 employees .
Isn ’ t that inadequate ?
Lisa Gilbert : Yes , absolutely .
Not to say that what they ’ ve passed thus far does everything that I just called for , but that the proposals are on the table for the second and the third packages .
The first supplemental was mainly focused , that 8.3 billion , on aid going @ @ @ @ @ @ @ production or grants to figure out how to do that for public health organizations , things like that .
And the paid leave extension was not adequate , but we ’ re seeing more of it , more in the Families First Act the House passed and , hopefully , still more in the third version of the supplemental that ’ s being discussed .
What we want to see and what has been proposed by both Leader Schumer and Speaker Pelosi is an increase in unemployment insurance , an increase in benefits @ @ @ @ @ @ @ SNAP , ways to cancel student debt .
The latest proposal really does kind of cover the waters of what we ’ re trying to do .
And you ’ re right , it will be up to Congress to pass it , but I do think they have the right idea in terms of what ’ s been proposed .
Jaisal Noor : Finally , you talked about Medicare for All .
Now the democratic debate , Joe Biden said , “ Look at Italy .
They have single payer and their @ @ @ @ @ @ @ said , “ We can cover the needs right now without passing Medicare for All .
It ’ s not addressing the current need.
” How would you respond to that ?
Lisa Gilbert : Yeah .
I mean , I think , and this is … Yeah , Public Citizen don ’ t take positions on candidates , not to say that either candidate has it completely right .
I think the thing that we want to see is not just sort of Medicare for All for this situation , which I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ re talking about right now .
We need to cover , without prejudice , everyone and everything that we can because we ’ re in an emergency situation .
I think the idea of eventually getting us to a system of true Medicare for All , expanded Medicare for All , is that we will already have that in place .
We won ’ t have this situation where we ’ re worrying about it in the emergency moment .
We ’ ll already have decided to cover care in the way that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Noor : For The Real News , this is Jaisal Noor in Baltimore .

Public Citizen’s Lisa Gilbert says the coronavirus bailout prioritizes providing healthcare and job protection over corporate interests.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Jaisal Noor: Animation illustrates how social distancing can save lives during the coronavirus pandemic. The death toll from COVID-19 continues to rise with over 10,000 reported fatalities and close to a quarter of a million confirmed cases across 160 countries. That number could be far higher, especially in countries like the United States. The lack of available tests means there are potentially many more undetected cases and the government response has been slow, hampered by misinformation spread by President Donald Trump.
Donald Trump: We think we have it very well under control. We have very little problem in this country. Now the virus that we’re talking about having to do … A lot of people think that goes away in April with the heat. They’re politicizing it, and this is their new hoax. But we did something that’s been pretty amazing. We have 15 people in this massive country and because of the fact that we went early, we went early, we could have had a lot more than that.
Jaisal Noor: Trump has finally begun acknowledging the scope of the threat and mobilizing the country to deal with it.
Donald Trump: We need millions of masks, and all of that will be ordered. We need respirators. We need ventilators is a big thing.
Jaisal Noor: But on March 9th, he compared it to the common flu. He’s wrong. Coronavirus is novel, which means it’s never been seen before, so our bodies lack the ability to fight the symptoms, which can be deadly. Congress has passed a bill that mandates free testing, but experts say treatment must also be free, arguing that’s a model South Korea has used with notable success.
We recently spoke with Lisa Gilbert, vice president of legislative affairs for the nonprofit consumer advocacy group Public Citizen that’s called on the president to resign because he poses a “clear and present danger to the nation’s public health.”
Lisa Gilbert: I think this issue and the fear it’s justifiably engendering is pointing to our systematic underinvestment in our public health infrastructure for decades, and now that we are faced with a crisis, we don’t have the ability to quickly provide in a way that makes sense for the underinsured or just sort of across the board because of a lack of production of test kits or preparedness by our personnel. We don’t have the ability to give people what they need and so folks are panicking.
One really crystal clear, easy, straightforward thing to do is have the federal government foot the bill for both the tests and the treatment and take the confusion about what your insurance covers or doesn’t cover out of it. People have been calling for that solution. We think it makes a ton of sense both for this emergency and then also as a group that has long supported Medicare for All. It’s sort of a encapsulated, obvious example for why we’ve been calling for that.
Jaisal Noor: And some people have pointed to South Korea that had some success containing the virus, and their approach has been praised by some scientists and it may have sort of adopted this really aggressive testing. Can you talk about that at all, what their experience has been?
Lisa Gilbert: Yes. I think the places where success is being had either in getting ahead of the virus and understanding who has it or containing it and kind of coming out the other side like they’re seeing in Hong Kong, it’s really the places where they’ve been the most aggressive. The United States, we’re not used to taking action, taking our government seriously in that way and taking recommendations until they’re sort of mandates and the emergency has reached a higher level. So, we were not ahead of the curve. We did not take advantage of the time given to us by China’s containment and take early, quick measures to test aggressively and contain. Now, we’re working to catch up. I think we can, but it will take those kinds of aggressive measures now and take them happening quickly.
Jaisal Noor: Some people are calling for economic support as well for some of the workers that could be affected by this. There’s been different proposals put forth by Democrats and now in the House and now even some Republicans are saying, even Donald Trump has said, “Let’s make some direct cash payments.” What do you think is the most effective way to give aid to people that have lost their jobs, lost their businesses? And, obviously, a lot of employment is tied to healthcare in this country as well.
Lisa Gilbert: Absolutely. I think the congressional response has to be, and the White House response has to be comprehensive, has to take into account that everything that’s happening right now is hitting the U.S. economy incredibly hard. We are looking at needing probably a federal fiscal stimulus that exceeds the response that we had in 2008. That’s going to mean everything from helping big corporations, but now doing that kind of stimulus in a way that’s smart where it doesn’t entrench money for CEOs and shareholders, but, instead, actually helps businesses stay afloat and trickles down to the rest of the economy.
It’s going to take massive investment in the social safety net, emergency appropriations, so that we can surge medical supplies, so that we can help provide childcare for people, especially healthcare workers, and then, of course, paid sick leave and unemployment insurance to help people who are unable to go to work, whether they’re sick or not. The unemployment insurance should be extended to gig workers and the self-employed, which we have many more of than we’ve ever had before.
I think that the bottom line, and I do think that Congress is actually doing a very good job on this front, is that responses need to be comprehensive. There’s not sort of a single silver bullet where appropriated money should go. We need to cover the waters and grapple with all the different problems that we’re facing because of the pandemic.
Jaisal Noor: From what I was reading, what Congress had agreed to would exempt 80% of workers, any worker that works for a business that has over 500 employees. Isn’t that inadequate?
Lisa Gilbert: Yes, absolutely. Not to say that what they’ve passed thus far does everything that I just called for, but that the proposals are on the table for the second and the third packages. The first supplemental was mainly focused, that 8.3 billion, on aid going to the agencies, jump-starting the vaccine production or grants to figure out how to do that for public health organizations, things like that. And the paid leave extension was not adequate, but we’re seeing more of it, more in the Families First Act the House passed and, hopefully, still more in the third version of the supplemental that’s being discussed.
What we want to see and what has been proposed by both Leader Schumer and Speaker Pelosi is an increase in unemployment insurance, an increase in benefits in Medicaid, some states, and SNAP, ways to cancel student debt. The latest proposal really does kind of cover the waters of what we’re trying to do. And you’re right, it will be up to Congress to pass it, but I do think they have the right idea in terms of what’s been proposed.
Jaisal Noor: Finally, you talked about Medicare for All. Now the democratic debate, Joe Biden said, “Look at Italy. They have single payer and their healthcare system is failing.” And he said, “We can cover the needs right now without passing Medicare for All. It’s not addressing the current need.” How would you respond to that?
Lisa Gilbert: Yeah. I mean, I think, and this is … Yeah, Public Citizen don’t take positions on candidates, not to say that either candidate has it completely right. I think the thing that we want to see is not just sort of Medicare for All for this situation, which I think is kind of what we’re talking about right now. We need to cover, without prejudice, everyone and everything that we can because we’re in an emergency situation. I think the idea of eventually getting us to a system of true Medicare for All, expanded Medicare for All, is that we will already have that in place. We won’t have this situation where we’re worrying about it in the emergency moment. We’ll already have decided to cover care in the way that we clearly need right now.
Jaisal Noor: For The Real News, this is Jaisal Noor in Baltimore.
Production: Jaisal Noor
Post-Production: Oscar León
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therealnews--2020-03-25--Yesterday’s Man: Biden’s Sorry Record On Civil Rights

This is a rush transcript and may contain errors .
It will be updated .
Greg Wilpert : It ’ s the Real News Network , I ’ m Greg Wilpert in Baltimore .
Opinion polls are telling us that Joe Biden is far ahead in the race for the Democratic presidential nomination now .
It seems a bit surprising though that a candidate who is arguably among the more conservative of the Democratic presidential contenders should come out ahead in this election cycle , considering that presenting oneself as a progressive seemed to be favored by all candidates this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Biden stand for ?
The debates shone relatively little light on what he believes , and only occasionally highlighted his 44-year record as a national politician , 36 of which as a Senator from Delaware , and eight of which as Vice President .
A recent book on Biden ’ s political history though examines just this issue .
The book is titled , Yesterday ’ s Man : The Case Against Joe Biden .
Joining me now to discuss the book is its author , Branko Marcetic .
He is also a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for joining us today , Branko .
Branko Marcetic : Yeah , thanks for having me .
Greg Wilpert : Since we have a lot of ground to cover , I would like to divide this interview into two parts .
In the first part , I would like to focus on Biden ’ s political history as it relates to civil rights , racial justice , and environmental policies .
In the second part , we ’ ll look at his economic and foreign policies .
Regarding his civil rights records , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ he was first elected to the Senate in 1976 , he was a New Deal Democrat who supported rent control and some price controls , which would benefit the poor .
But then he very quickly shifted gears and became a neoliberal and a staunch opponent of issues such as busing .
Talk about this transition , and specifically his history on busing and other civil rights issues .
Branko Marcetic : Yeah , that ’ s right .
He won in 1972 .
That was his big entry into the Senate .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ senator , Caleb Boggs , who was , despite the fact that he was a Republican , he actually had a very good civil rights record , and he was actually endorsed by the first black senator in US history over Biden , the Democrat .
And yet Biden came away with a victory where he actually won the black vote in that election .
I believe he came second in the state to George McGovern that year among African American voters .
Very quickly , as you say , he shifted on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ politics to be focused on the concerns of this middle class voter they imagined , which I argue in the book was a conservative , white suburbanite , middle-class voter .
He saw them as the the chief audience that he should be speaking to .
And so from ’ 75 onwards , from 1972 to ’ 75 , even though he said some things about busing and drugs and crime , he didn ’ t really vote too much to focus on these things .
He voted actually mostly for busing despite @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it .
And then from ’ 75 to ’ 78 which is when his reelection comes up , I believe he votes 19 times against busing and only once for .
And he actually puts forward several legislative amendments that end up having far-reaching effects on the civil rights movement as a whole where there ’ s a 75 amendment that fails , but it passes the Senate and publications , things like [ inaudible 00:03:36 ] quarterly at the time , they know that this is a watershed because the Senate had @ @ @ @ @ @ @ until that amendment , and then Biden succeeded in cracking that for the first time .
In ’ 77 his Eagleton-Biden amendment becomes law and that gets renewed every year and that basically bans , the Department of Education , Health , Education , and Welfare , which it was at the time , from spending its money towards busing , and it doesn ’ t actually have an effect on Wilmington , Delaware , which is sensibly why he was doing this .
There was a court order that forced busing on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it ’ s not about court order busing .
It ’ s purely the Department of Health , Education , and Welfare , and civil rights workers for years after this complain about this amendment because they say it ’ s one of the biggest obstacles to civil rights and to actually achieving desegregation in schools because even schools with voluntary desegregation plans can ’ t complete their plans because of this ban .
And then from there , once Biden wins the ’ 78 election , and even before that , he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , where he had been working on bills to protect minorities from predatory debt collectors and the like , Biden then switches to the judiciary committee because , he says , “ I think that there are bigger issues that are more important to Delaware , namely the issues of crime and busing.
” It ’ s a very easy transition I think to go from not just opposing civil rights but becoming this vehement toughened crime warrior , because as we know , in the United States , crime and especially things @ @ @ @ @ @ @ heavily racialized , and crime and drugs becomes this… Even if Biden wasn ’ t thinking of it this way , it becomes this dog whistle that is really about locking up scary African American people .
Biden through the eighties works with Strom Thurmond and others to pass these bills that rewrite the criminal code in the United States : make things a lot harsher , impose mandatory minimums , eliminate parole , expand civil forfeiture , basically the power of the police and other law enforcement to steal your things , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and they accuse them of possibly being involved in a crime , they can just take their money , take other parts of the property and keep it for themselves .
And that ’ s really… that blew up after Biden ’ s bills .
And those bills in the 80s are really far more consequential to the mass carceral system that exists in the United States today than the 1994 crime bill , even though that one is important , but that one tends to get all the attention , when it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 80s that Biden pushes that have a bigger effect .
And of course all of this has a much bigger disproportionate impact on communities of color .
And so it ’ s very ironic now that after doing all this , that Biden now is viable because of African American voters .
Well , older African American voters ’ loyalty to him .
Greg Wilpert : Well actually yeah , I was wondering about that .
I mean in terms of his role , it seemed to be very central .
That is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of these crime bills that drove , as you said , mandatory minimum sentencing , which contributed to the dramatic increase in the incarceration rate in the United States , particularly of minorities and African-Americans , blacks in the United States , and people who are poor .
But how has he dealt with this more recently ?
That is , has he even had to deal with it ?
That is , have you seen him confronted with that issue and if so , how has he responded to it ?
Branko @ @ @ @ @ @ @ crime stuff ?
I think he ’ s said that it was a mistake .
He kind of pivoted on this back in the mid two thousands when the political winds began to shift .
They said most of the stuff was a little extreme .
At the same time , he also has continued to defend the 1994 crime bill , he still says that it ’ s one of his great achievements .
And he was saying as late as 2016 that actually the crime bill helped save America ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s walking a tightrope here .
I don ’ t think it ’ s… It hasn ’ t really come up and been as much of an issue in this primary .
I mean Cory Booker did mention very early on last year that Biden was the architect of the system and that you can ’ t elect the architect of this to end the system .
But of course he ’ s now come out in favor of him .
Just as Kamala Harris attacked him for his stance on busing , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I think a lot of what ’ s happening in this election is it ’ s become about this nebulous idea of electability , and it ’ s become about the idea of getting Trump out of office .
So a lot of issues have taken a backseat .
It ’ s not… You look at exit polling in a lot of these states , even the more conservative voting states , and Medicare for all is very popular in South Carolina .
Majority of Biden voters actually said that they wanted a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Clearly the ideas of Bernie Sanders are winning the day , but I think what is happening is that people are going , “ Well , okay , now that Biden is the centrist safe establishment choice .
And so if we want to get rid of Trump , yes , all this stuff is really nice .
We want all this nice stuff .
But the first and top priority is getting rid of Trump.
” And Biden , we ’ ve been hearing for decades is the one who is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ though if you look at the track record of centrist or moderate candidates in the United States in presidential elections , it ’ s a very , very poor track record even against very [ inaudible 00:09:52 ] Republicans and the style of Trump .
Greg Wilpert : Yeah .
I want to return to that issue of electability later on , but before we go , I want to look at his environmental record .
That is , it seems that Biden originally supported environmental protection early on in his career and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ your book , by the Delaware environmental organizations .
So how has his position on environmental issues and particularly climate change evolved as far as you can tell ?
Branko Marcetic : He ’ s always had a very good voting record , voting ratings , and scorecards and everything for environmental groups throughout his career .
The trick here is that… This is the issue when we turn the environment into this siloed issue as I think people like Biden do , and so many people who support him do .
Biden @ @ @ @ @ @ @ but when it comes to actually taking on the wider structural roadblocks to protecting the environment , he ’ s advanced the exact kind of policies that have led us to the moment that we are at now , this moment of environmental of crisis .
A really good example of this is even as Biden was being endorsed by environmental groups in the nineties for voting the right way and making the environment one of his top priorities , he was also pushing Clinton to cut spending and to balance the budget @ @ @ @ @ @ @ his top priority and all those efforts actually undermined environmental protections back in Biden ’ s home state .
It meant that suddenly state governments didn ’ t have the same resources to tackle river pollution and that kind of thing .
And that ’ s really what we ’ re seeing now .
I ’ m sure if you asked him , I ’ m sure he really does genuinely believe that the environment is an important thing , but Biden also clearly doesn ’ t really understand the urgency of the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ guy who does not have a fixed , committed ideology .
He was not a Democrat until 1969 , he was already about 27 or 28 .
He had flirted with being a Republican earlier .
A state democratic party chair had said earlier in his career that he was assertive and well-spoken and everything , but he never had any real ideology .
The thing is that I think Biden wants to be president .
I think his idea is just that he would come in and just by virtue of not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a radical change .
Meanwhile , the environmental crisis and the other crises that are happening , are just going to keep ramping up and hurdling towards us , and I doubt the Biden ’ s really going to be , up to task of facing them , especially if you look at his climate plan , originally it was partly plagiarized , Greenpeace gave it I believe a D. Then later on he spruced it up to improve it , but there ’ s still certain things that he won ’ t @ @ @ @ @ @ @ t commit to ending oil exports for example .
He ’ s talked about basically a similar strategy as Obama ’ s all of the above strategy , which is now not nearly adequate to meet the moment .
And of course we look at what kind of funding he ’ s getting .
He ’ s getting money from Wall Street , and he ’ s doing fundraisers .
He did a fundraiser with the fossil fuel executive , his plan was written by people in the fossil fuel industry .
So @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ask is even the half measure that Biden is proposing , is he really going to follow through with it ?
If you look at these wider elements of not just the way that he conducts politics , and how he has responded in the past to an increasingly extreme Republican party , but also given just the nature of his campaign and where it ’ s getting its money from .
Greg Wilpert : Okay .
Well , we ’ re going to conclude this first part of our interview with Branko @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , Yesterday ’ s Man : the Case Against Joe Biden .
Please make sure to tune in to part two of this interview where we take a closer look at Biden ’ s economic and foreign policies .

Branko Marcetic’s book “Yesterday’s Man: The Case Against Joe Biden” discusses Joe Biden’s civil rights and environmental record.
Story Transcript
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.
Greg Wilpert: It’s the Real News Network, I’m Greg Wilpert in Baltimore. Opinion polls are telling us that Joe Biden is far ahead in the race for the Democratic presidential nomination now. It seems a bit surprising though that a candidate who is arguably among the more conservative of the Democratic presidential contenders should come out ahead in this election cycle, considering that presenting oneself as a progressive seemed to be favored by all candidates this time around. But just what does Biden stand for?
The debates shone relatively little light on what he believes, and only occasionally highlighted his 44-year record as a national politician, 36 of which as a Senator from Delaware, and eight of which as Vice President. A recent book on Biden’s political history though examines just this issue. The book is titled, Yesterday’s Man: The Case Against Joe Biden. Joining me now to discuss the book is its author, Branko Marcetic. He is also a staff writer with Jacobin Magazine. Thanks for joining us today, Branko.
Branko Marcetic: Yeah, thanks for having me.
Greg Wilpert: Since we have a lot of ground to cover, I would like to divide this interview into two parts. In the first part, I would like to focus on Biden’s political history as it relates to civil rights, racial justice, and environmental policies. In the second part, we’ll look at his economic and foreign policies. Regarding his civil rights records, you begin your book saying that when he was first elected to the Senate in 1976, he was a New Deal Democrat who supported rent control and some price controls, which would benefit the poor. But then he very quickly shifted gears and became a neoliberal and a staunch opponent of issues such as busing. Talk about this transition, and specifically his history on busing and other civil rights issues.
Branko Marcetic: Yeah, that’s right. He won in 1972. That was his big entry into the Senate. He’d actually beaten a Republican senator, Caleb Boggs, who was, despite the fact that he was a Republican, he actually had a very good civil rights record, and he was actually endorsed by the first black senator in US history over Biden, the Democrat. And yet Biden came away with a victory where he actually won the black vote in that election. I believe he came second in the state to George McGovern that year among African American voters.
Very quickly, as you say, he shifted on this, and basically he reoriented his politics to be focused on the concerns of this middle class voter they imagined, which I argue in the book was a conservative, white suburbanite, middle-class voter. He saw them as the the chief audience that he should be speaking to.
And so from ’75 onwards, from 1972 to ’75, even though he said some things about busing and drugs and crime, he didn’t really vote too much to focus on these things. He voted actually mostly for busing despite the fact that he was critical of it. And then from ’75 to ’78 which is when his reelection comes up, I believe he votes 19 times against busing and only once for. And he actually puts forward several legislative amendments that end up having far-reaching effects on the civil rights movement as a whole where there’s a 75 amendment that fails, but it passes the Senate and publications, things like [inaudible 00:03:36] quarterly at the time, they know that this is a watershed because the Senate had always had a reliably anti segregation majority until that amendment, and then Biden succeeded in cracking that for the first time. In ’77 his Eagleton-Biden amendment becomes law and that gets renewed every year and that basically bans, the Department of Education, Health, Education, and Welfare, which it was at the time, from spending its money towards busing, and it doesn’t actually have an effect on Wilmington, Delaware, which is sensibly why he was doing this.
There was a court order that forced busing on Wilmington that actually has limited effect because it’s not about court order busing. It’s purely the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, and civil rights workers for years after this complain about this amendment because they say it’s one of the biggest obstacles to civil rights and to actually achieving desegregation in schools because even schools with voluntary desegregation plans can’t complete their plans because of this ban. And then from there, once Biden wins the ’78 election, and even before that, he had moved from the Senate Banking Committee, where he had been working on bills to protect minorities from predatory debt collectors and the like, Biden then switches to the judiciary committee because, he says, “I think that there are bigger issues that are more important to Delaware, namely the issues of crime and busing.”
It’s a very easy transition I think to go from not just opposing civil rights but becoming this vehement toughened crime warrior, because as we know, in the United States, crime and especially things like poverty, in general, are heavily racialized, and crime and drugs becomes this… Even if Biden wasn’t thinking of it this way, it becomes this dog whistle that is really about locking up scary African American people. Biden through the eighties works with Strom Thurmond and others to pass these bills that rewrite the criminal code in the United States: make things a lot harsher, impose mandatory minimums, eliminate parole, expand civil forfeiture, basically the power of the police and other law enforcement to steal your things, essentially. If they see a motorist and they accuse them of possibly being involved in a crime, they can just take their money, take other parts of the property and keep it for themselves.
And that’s really… that blew up after Biden’s bills. And those bills in the 80s are really far more consequential to the mass carceral system that exists in the United States today than the 1994 crime bill, even though that one is important, but that one tends to get all the attention, when it’s really these bills in the 80s that Biden pushes that have a bigger effect. And of course all of this has a much bigger disproportionate impact on communities of color. And so it’s very ironic now that after doing all this, that Biden now is viable because of African American voters. Well, older African American voters’ loyalty to him.
Greg Wilpert: Well actually yeah, I was wondering about that. I mean in terms of his role, it seemed to be very central. That is, he was one of the sponsors of these crime bills that drove, as you said, mandatory minimum sentencing, which contributed to the dramatic increase in the incarceration rate in the United States, particularly of minorities and African-Americans, blacks in the United States, and people who are poor. But how has he dealt with this more recently? That is, has he even had to deal with it? That is, have you seen him confronted with that issue and if so, how has he responded to it?
Branko Marcetic: On the issue of the crime stuff? I think he’s said that it was a mistake. He kind of pivoted on this back in the mid two thousands when the political winds began to shift. They said most of the stuff was a little extreme. At the same time, he also has continued to defend the 1994 crime bill, he still says that it’s one of his great achievements. And he was saying as late as 2016 that actually the crime bill helped save America’s cities. So I think he’s walking a tightrope here. I don’t think it’s… It hasn’t really come up and been as much of an issue in this primary. I mean Cory Booker did mention very early on last year that Biden was the architect of the system and that you can’t elect the architect of this to end the system.
But of course he’s now come out in favor of him. Just as Kamala Harris attacked him for his stance on busing, and has also now endorsed him. I think a lot of what’s happening in this election is it’s become about this nebulous idea of electability, and it’s become about the idea of getting Trump out of office. So a lot of issues have taken a backseat. It’s not… You look at exit polling in a lot of these states, even the more conservative voting states, and Medicare for all is very popular in South Carolina. Majority of Biden voters actually said that they wanted a complete overhaul of the U.S. economic system. Clearly the ideas of Bernie Sanders are winning the day, but I think what is happening is that people are going, “Well, okay, now that Biden is the centrist safe establishment choice. And so if we want to get rid of Trump, yes, all this stuff is really nice. We want all this nice stuff. But the first and top priority is getting rid of Trump.” And Biden, we’ve been hearing for decades is the one who is most likely to beat Trump. Even though if you look at the track record of centrist or moderate candidates in the United States in presidential elections, it’s a very, very poor track record even against very [inaudible 00:09:52] Republicans and the style of Trump.
Greg Wilpert: Yeah. I want to return to that issue of electability later on, but before we go, I want to look at his environmental record. That is, it seems that Biden originally supported environmental protection early on in his career and he was even praised, according to your book, by the Delaware environmental organizations. So how has his position on environmental issues and particularly climate change evolved as far as you can tell?
Branko Marcetic: He’s always had a very good voting record, voting ratings, and scorecards and everything for environmental groups throughout his career. The trick here is that… This is the issue when we turn the environment into this siloed issue as I think people like Biden do, and so many people who support him do. Biden has always voted the right way, but when it comes to actually taking on the wider structural roadblocks to protecting the environment, he’s advanced the exact kind of policies that have led us to the moment that we are at now, this moment of environmental of crisis. A really good example of this is even as Biden was being endorsed by environmental groups in the nineties for voting the right way and making the environment one of his top priorities, he was also pushing Clinton to cut spending and to balance the budget and attack the deficit.
That was his top priority and all those efforts actually undermined environmental protections back in Biden’s home state. It meant that suddenly state governments didn’t have the same resources to tackle river pollution and that kind of thing. And that’s really what we’re seeing now. I’m sure if you asked him, I’m sure he really does genuinely believe that the environment is an important thing, but Biden also clearly doesn’t really understand the urgency of the moment. I think he is a guy who does not have a fixed, committed ideology. He was not a Democrat until 1969, he was already about 27 or 28. He had flirted with being a Republican earlier. A state democratic party chair had said earlier in his career that he was assertive and well-spoken and everything, but he never had any real ideology.
The thing is that I think Biden wants to be president. I think his idea is just that he would come in and just by virtue of not being Trump, it’ll make a radical change. Meanwhile, the environmental crisis and the other crises that are happening, are just going to keep ramping up and hurdling towards us, and I doubt the Biden’s really going to be, up to task of facing them, especially if you look at his climate plan, originally it was partly plagiarized, Greenpeace gave it I believe a D. Then later on he spruced it up to improve it, but there’s still certain things that he won’t commit to doing; he won’t commit to ending oil exports for example. He’s talked about basically a similar strategy as Obama’s all of the above strategy, which is now not nearly adequate to meet the moment.
And of course we look at what kind of funding he’s getting. He’s getting money from Wall Street, and he’s doing fundraisers. He did a fundraiser with the fossil fuel executive, his plan was written by people in the fossil fuel industry. So given all that, you have to ask is even the half measure that Biden is proposing, is he really going to follow through with it? If you look at these wider elements of not just the way that he conducts politics, and how he has responded in the past to an increasingly extreme Republican party, but also given just the nature of his campaign and where it’s getting its money from.
Greg Wilpert: Okay. Well, we’re going to conclude this first part of our interview with Branko Marcectic, the author of the book, Yesterday’s Man: the Case Against Joe Biden. Please make sure to tune in to part two of this interview where we take a closer look at Biden’s economic and foreign policies.
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therealnews--2020-03-25--Nation’s Leader In Jailing Young Black Men Isn’t Protecting Them From COVID-19

Jaisal Noor : Welcome to The Real News , I ’ m Jaisal Noor .
It ’ s been called a powder keg .
COVID-19 has highlighted the dangerous conditions faced by the over 2 million people behind bars in the United States that puts them at risk for infection .
Inmates and correctional officers across the country have already tested positive for the novel Coronavirus .
Advocates have demanded the release of prisoners for their own safety and several states and localities have already taken action .
On Friday , rep Ayanna Pressley of Massachusetts and Senator Elizabeth Warren @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Trump calling on him to reduce the federal prison population in order to combat the pandemic .
In Maryland thus far , governor Larry Hogan , who has earned wide praise for his response to COVID-19 has resisted calls from a growing number of advocates to expedite parole hearings , release elderly patients , and those at risk among a host of other demands .
Well , now joining us to discuss this is one of those signatories to the letter to governor Hogan .
Alexander Girgis is a current MD-PhD trainee at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Hopkins Incarceration Health Justice Collectives .
Thank you so much for joining us .
Alexander Girgi… : Thank you .
Good to be here .
Jaisal Noor : So right off the bat , I think it ’ s important to note , I ’ m just reading a headline here , Maryland leads the nation in incarcerating young Black men .
Talk about your demands to governor Larry Hogan .
Alexander Girgi… : So we ’ re making a number of demands , but the common theme among all of them is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ governor ’ s office place a priority on existing parole and probation procedures for the subpopulation of incarcerated individuals who have been determined by existing guidelines to be most at risk from morbidity and mortality due to COVID-19 .
So that would be people who are over 60 , people with chronic health conditions like heart and lung disease , or diabetes , or immunocompromised .
We ’ re asking several demands that are ultimately aimed at moving at least a subset of those individuals out of the prison system to reduce their @ @ @ @ @ @ @ like expediting parole procedures for those populations , declaring parole and commutation or release proceedings as emergency procedures .
So those can be kind of triaged or expedited in the system .
And we want the governor ’ s office to expedite geriatric and medical parole hearings .
And the ultimate goal of all these things , I think we have to understand , as you mentioned , the prison system is a potential powder keg for problems related to COVID-19 .
Whenever you have a gathering of people in a closed space @ @ @ @ @ @ @ always a potential for transmission of disease .
It doesn ’ t matter who you are , whether you ’ re incarcerated or not .
But the differences is of course incarcerated populations have less of a voice when it comes to advocating for their own rights in that respect .
And so they have been , I think , sadly overlooked when it comes to responding to this epidemic so far .
And we need to act quickly to avoid a really rapid spread of the outbreak in these populations .
Jaisal @ @ @ @ @ @ @ populations are already subjected to disease and outbreaks already .
Before the Coronavirus pandemic hit , we already know these populations are at risk .
Talk more about why it ’ s important that action be taken .
And it ’ s important to note that states across the country and cities have taken action and in many cases , it ’ s been too late to avoid outbreaks , but they ’ re beginning to take action .
So far , governor Larry Hogan has not taken action .
Alexander Girgi… : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ point .
I mean , unfortunately , due to systemic inequities and access to care and other factors , the incarcerated population does tend to be less healthy than the non-incarcerated population .
And there are larger incidences of communicable illness including hepatitis and HIV and tuberculosis in incarcerated populations .
And there ’ s no reason to believe that something that ’ s fairly contagious like COVID-19 could be prevented with current prison protocols .
I mean , how do you feed large amounts of people in potentially shared dining halls or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ same correctional staff monitoring a large number of prisoners ?
There ’ s just a huge potential for spread .
I think you raise a good point in that other municipalities and other states across the country have recognized this is a potential problem .
In New York City , mayor Bill de Blasio has emphasized expedited parole and release proceedings for 200 prisoners that were deemed vulnerable .
They released 23 of them on Sunday as kind of part of that initiative .
So people do appreciate that this is a growing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ governor Hogan ’ s response on a number of fronts in Maryland has been positive as far as closing restaurants , bars , and non-essential businesses as of yesterday .
The prison population has been overlooked .
And I think part of the reason for that is kind of the cultural perception of , who are prisoners ?
And I think unfortunately , for some of the political system or in society , we viewed incarcerated individuals as nothing more than potential agents to commit crime .
And if you view it that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to keeping people incarcerated .
But when you view them not only as people who have the potential to spread disease as anyone else , but also people who are human and suffer as a consequence of these health problems , then you realize that there really are some cons to keeping people incarcerated .
I think there are a number of arguments to be made from the moral standpoint as well as the financial standpoint .
I don ’ t have data on Maryland prison systems per se , but at the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ per day per inmate to incarcerate someone .
And so I think that there ’ s a number of arguments to be made to governor Hogan at both mitigating the cost of incarceration by releasing people and also avoiding the cost of healthcare for individuals who fall ill .
I think he said- Jaisal Noor : I think in Maryland , it ’ s something like $ 30,000 or $ 40,000 a year .
So it costs less to put someone through college than lock them up .
Can you talk about what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are incarcerated in Maryland so far ?
Has anything been done ?
Alexander Girgi… : Yeah .
Well , certainly .
I mean , in response to this pandemic , to my knowledge , there has been no real action taken by the Maryland prison systems .
And I think the concern has been raised by a number of individuals .
But I think most public institutions and especially prisons which take care of a marginalized population , I think there ’ s a lot of inertia to really enacting change .
So @ @ @ @ @ @ @ expedited proceedings of any nature that have happened as a result of this outbreak .
Jaisal Noor : And finally , I wanted to spend a few minutes talking about the lessons COVID-19 has taught us about mass incarceration in the United States .
We lock up more people per capita than anyone in the world .
It doesn ’ t keep us safer .
And now we ’ re learning that we don ’ t have to necessarily to be doing this .
Talk about what we ’ ve seen here .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ stuff that many of us already know if you ’ ve listened to formerly incarcerated , if you listened to former police and prison guard officials , they ’ ve been saying this for decades , obviously .
But do you think this could help spur some broader change in how America deals with mass incarceration ?
Alexander Girgi… : I am hopeful that this will spur a change in attitudes and how we view mass incarceration .
I think that it ’ s clear that mass incarceration is a huge problem in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in that with inequities , particularly in access to healthcare , mental health resources and a multitude of other things that a prison sentence is not just a prison sentence , that in some cases , it can be a death sentence or guaranteeing that you may not find employment in the future .
Just long lasting repercussions beyond the scope of that sentence .
And I think that particularly in this instance , we have a situation in which mass incarceration is not only harming incarcerated individuals , but by potentially propagating @ @ @ @ @ @ @ re harming everyone .
You ’ re harming society as a whole if you can not control this outbreak .
And so hopefully , that will motivate people who are not just incarcerated , but beyond the incarcerated population into really strongly considering reform in prison systems and especially in prison healthcare , which has been just a long topic , which merits its own discussion for how under resourced it is .
Jaisal Noor : Well , we want to thank you so much for joining us .
And keep us posted @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ ll love to have you back on if there ’ s developments on this story .
Thank you so much .
Jaisal Noor : Thank you for joining us at The Real News Network .

Jaisal Noor: Welcome to The Real News, I’m Jaisal Noor. It’s been called a powder keg. COVID-19 has highlighted the dangerous conditions faced by the over 2 million people behind bars in the United States that puts them at risk for infection. Inmates and correctional officers across the country have already tested positive for the novel Coronavirus. Advocates have demanded the release of prisoners for their own safety and several states and localities have already taken action. On Friday, rep Ayanna Pressley of Massachusetts and Senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts sent a letter to president Trump calling on him to reduce the federal prison population in order to combat the pandemic. In Maryland thus far, governor Larry Hogan, who has earned wide praise for his response to COVID-19 has resisted calls from a growing number of advocates to expedite parole hearings, release elderly patients, and those at risk among a host of other demands. Well, now joining us to discuss this is one of those signatories to the letter to governor Hogan. Alexander Girgis is a current MD-PhD trainee at Johns Hopkins University and part of the Hopkins Incarceration Health Justice Collectives. Thank you so much for joining us.
Alexander Girgi…: Thank you. Good to be here.
Jaisal Noor: So right off the bat, I think it’s important to note, I’m just reading a headline here, Maryland leads the nation in incarcerating young Black men. Talk about your demands to governor Larry Hogan.
Alexander Girgi…: So we’re making a number of demands, but the common theme among all of them is that we’re asking that the governor’s office place a priority on existing parole and probation procedures for the subpopulation of incarcerated individuals who have been determined by existing guidelines to be most at risk from morbidity and mortality due to COVID-19. So that would be people who are over 60, people with chronic health conditions like heart and lung disease, or diabetes, or immunocompromised. We’re asking several demands that are ultimately aimed at moving at least a subset of those individuals out of the prison system to reduce their exposure. So that would be things like expediting parole procedures for those populations, declaring parole and commutation or release proceedings as emergency procedures. So those can be kind of triaged or expedited in the system. And we want the governor’s office to expedite geriatric and medical parole hearings.
And the ultimate goal of all these things, I think we have to understand, as you mentioned, the prison system is a potential powder keg for problems related to COVID-19. Whenever you have a gathering of people in a closed space with shared resources, there’s always a potential for transmission of disease. It doesn’t matter who you are, whether you’re incarcerated or not. But the differences is of course incarcerated populations have less of a voice when it comes to advocating for their own rights in that respect. And so they have been, I think, sadly overlooked when it comes to responding to this epidemic so far. And we need to act quickly to avoid a really rapid spread of the outbreak in these populations.
Jaisal Noor: So we understand that these populations are already subjected to disease and outbreaks already. Before the Coronavirus pandemic hit, we already know these populations are at risk. Talk more about why it’s important that action be taken. And it’s important to note that states across the country and cities have taken action and in many cases, it’s been too late to avoid outbreaks, but they’re beginning to take action. So far, governor Larry Hogan has not taken action.
Alexander Girgi…: Yeah. That’s a great point. I mean, unfortunately, due to systemic inequities and access to care and other factors, the incarcerated population does tend to be less healthy than the non-incarcerated population. And there are larger incidences of communicable illness including hepatitis and HIV and tuberculosis in incarcerated populations. And there’s no reason to believe that something that’s fairly contagious like COVID-19 could be prevented with current prison protocols. I mean, how do you feed large amounts of people in potentially shared dining halls or shared hygiene facilities? Or have the same correctional staff monitoring a large number of prisoners? There’s just a huge potential for spread.
I think you raise a good point in that other municipalities and other states across the country have recognized this is a potential problem. In New York City, mayor Bill de Blasio has emphasized expedited parole and release proceedings for 200 prisoners that were deemed vulnerable. They released 23 of them on Sunday as kind of part of that initiative. So people do appreciate that this is a growing problem. But so far, although governor Hogan’s response on a number of fronts in Maryland has been positive as far as closing restaurants, bars, and non-essential businesses as of yesterday. The prison population has been overlooked. And I think part of the reason for that is kind of the cultural perception of, who are prisoners? And I think unfortunately, for some of the political system or in society, we viewed incarcerated individuals as nothing more than potential agents to commit crime.
And if you view it that way, then there is no downside to keeping people incarcerated. But when you view them not only as people who have the potential to spread disease as anyone else, but also people who are human and suffer as a consequence of these health problems, then you realize that there really are some cons to keeping people incarcerated. I think there are a number of arguments to be made from the moral standpoint as well as the financial standpoint. I don’t have data on Maryland prison systems per se, but at the federal level, it costs $99 per day per inmate to incarcerate someone. And so I think that there’s a number of arguments to be made to governor Hogan at both mitigating the cost of incarceration by releasing people and also avoiding the cost of healthcare for individuals who fall ill. I think he said-
Jaisal Noor: I think in Maryland, it’s something like $30,000 or $40,000 a year. So it costs less to put someone through college than lock them up. Can you talk about what exactly has been done for people that are incarcerated in Maryland so far? Has anything been done?
Alexander Girgi…: Yeah. Well, certainly. I mean, in response to this pandemic, to my knowledge, there has been no real action taken by the Maryland prison systems. And I think the concern has been raised by a number of individuals. But I think most public institutions and especially prisons which take care of a marginalized population, I think there’s a lot of inertia to really enacting change. So I’m not aware of any expedited proceedings of any nature that have happened as a result of this outbreak.
Jaisal Noor: And finally, I wanted to spend a few minutes talking about the lessons COVID-19 has taught us about mass incarceration in the United States. We lock up more people per capita than anyone in the world. It doesn’t keep us safer. And now we’re learning that we don’t have to necessarily to be doing this. Talk about what we’ve seen here. And I mean, this is the stuff that many of us already know if you’ve listened to formerly incarcerated, if you listened to former police and prison guard officials, they’ve been saying this for decades, obviously. But do you think this could help spur some broader change in how America deals with mass incarceration?
Alexander Girgi…: I am hopeful that this will spur a change in attitudes and how we view mass incarceration. I think that it’s clear that mass incarceration is a huge problem in creating long lasting effects on those individuals in that with inequities, particularly in access to healthcare, mental health resources and a multitude of other things that a prison sentence is not just a prison sentence, that in some cases, it can be a death sentence or guaranteeing that you may not find employment in the future. Just long lasting repercussions beyond the scope of that sentence. And I think that particularly in this instance, we have a situation in which mass incarceration is not only harming incarcerated individuals, but by potentially propagating the spread of disease, you’re harming everyone. You’re harming society as a whole if you cannot control this outbreak. And so hopefully, that will motivate people who are not just incarcerated, but beyond the incarcerated population into really strongly considering reform in prison systems and especially in prison healthcare, which has been just a long topic, which merits its own discussion for how under resourced it is.
Jaisal Noor: Well, we want to thank you so much for joining us. And keep us posted on how this develops and if… We’ll love to have you back on if there’s developments on this story. Thank you so much.
Alexander Girgi…: Thank you.
Jaisal Noor: Thank you for joining us at The Real News Network.