skeptiko--2020-06-02--Chris Knowles, The Descent Into Evil Thinking |450|

Chris Knowles explores the dark side of deep state dabbling with extended consciousness .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:00:21 ] That ’ s Walt from Breaking Bad finally coming to grips with the fact that his dissent into evil maybe wasn ’ t for the altruistic reasons he had told himself .
It ’ s a topic we talk quite a bit about with today ’ s guest , the oh so excellent Chris Knowles .
To me , that speaks so much to these super patriot spooks and spies who want to tell us that they ’ re doing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ country or for some other reason .
Chris Knowles : [ 00:00:57 ] It ’ s interesting you brought this up because this is something I ’ ve been thinking quite a bit about , and I think that the descent into evil , into evil thinking , it goes in steps , it ’ s sort of like an initiatory process , so to speak .
You ’ re dealing with powers that are much greater than yourself , and it ’ s really delusional to think that you have anything to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a creature that ’ s powerful enough to change your life or to curse somebody or whatever you think you want , what do you have to offer them ?
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:01:31 ] Welcome to Skeptiko where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers , thinkers , and their critics .
Today we ’ re joined by Chris Knowles .
There ’ s no one quite like Chris through his super popular and influential blog , The Secret Sun , and his book , Our Gods Wear Spandex @ @ @ @ @ @ @ lot of people would tell you has really forever changed the conversation about our occulted pop culture .
Well , throughout all of that Chris has really gained reputation as our anchorman for the esoteric .
I know when I first talked to Chris a few years ago , I was genuinely both excited and a little intimidated to talk to him , and that doesn ’ t happen very often for me .
But fortunately , he ’ s a super nice and approachable guy .
He just happens to be from @ @ @ @ @ @ @ fit all that , but he does , so here he is .
Chris , welcome back .
Thanks for joining me .
Chris Knowles : [ 00:02:35 ] Oh , I ’ m so glad to be here , I really am .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:02:39 ] Well , you have a new book and a work of fiction , He Will Live Up in the Sky , and it certainly hits all of the Skeptiko buttons .
Unacknowledged science could never be a conspiracy , conspiracies and the malevolent @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
So let ’ s jump into it .
Tell people about this book .
Chris Knowles : [ 00:03:05 ] Well , it ’ s a book that ’ s been five years in the making .
It ’ s a book that I started quite a while ago , and there were a number of things that kind of prevented me from getting it done .
But the lag was really helpful for me because it gave me a chance to really develop the ideas in it and change it quite @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a much different book than it is .
But I wanted to explore a lot of the ideas that I ’ ve been writing about on the blog with a little bit more free reign .
You know , when you ’ re writing on a blog and you ’ re sort of trying to keep it towards things that you can document , things that you can prove , you ’ ve got to be a little bit more… I mean , I get pretty wild on the blog , but a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ humor .
But you know , when you ’ re sort of approaching these topics , there ’ s a certain amount of circumspection that you need to cleave too .
And what I wanted to do is I really wanted to explore these ideas without having to hold back without having to sensor myself or edit myself .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:03:58 ] Yeah , like you sensor yourself so much .
Chris Knowles : [ 00:04:02 ] And really sort of get down to it .
But I really wanted @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a very strange place , the corruption and the conspiracy were very close to the surface and it was something that we kind of almost took for granted .
I ’ ll just give you one bullet point .
My hometown is now the location of the archdiocese of Boston , which you might ’ ve heard a thing or two about in the past 20 years , and their activities and their coverups and so on .
And in fact , the local parish church , the priest was the brother of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ whole scandal .
And there were also all sorts of strange things that kind of gave me the feeling that there were some little deeper shenanigans afoot .
Something that the blog readers will be familiar with .
I ’ d gone to school with the woman who had carried out the massacre at the University of Alabama , Huntsville in the biology department , and a lot of the people she had shot were microbiologists , and of course Huntsville is next to Redstone Arsenal and next to the Marshall Space Center @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
the , paper clip .
Yeah .
And strangely enough , I mean , one thing I alluded to in the book is that , you know , this area with I was in is where actually pay per click went down , where all the paper clip people were flown into and there was an Island off the coast of , Borrow of Quinsy called Walston , you know , when my family was living .
And then when my father later moved , when my parents split up , and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a long Island .
And , there was Fort strong and that ’ s where all the peanut Munda guys were flown into .
And that ’ s something that I hadn ’ t learned until fairly recently .
And I had actually done some digging into my , you know , my area and things like that , and just was stunned by just how close the .
Deep state shenanigans and the corruption Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:05:59 ] was , what about the shutter Island thing with that ?
Chris @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Yeah .
Well , that ’ s what , this , this location that you ’ re referring to where fun .
Donna , Ken , and his people from PanAm Monza .
Or flown into was actually the location with , I think maybe just the exterior is , but maybe not .
for the film , the Leonardo DiCaprio film , shutter Island , which of course is very immersed in and K ultra-lore and paperclip and all that kind of stuff .
So it was actually a very appropriate , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Leonardo DiCaprio movie , the departed , a lot of the , scenes were filmed in the same town .
And it sort of gives you a sense of , you know , what was going on in this area .
If you ’ re not familiar with , with the Eastern Massachusetts , Boston in the seventies and eighties , it was basically run by two brothers , one of which was a , a , the president of the Senate .
His name was , William Bulger .
And he was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , his brother was a Whitey Bulger , you know , there ’ ve been some movies made about him .
There ’ s a Johnny Depp movie made about him , but he was actually , I mean , this is really stunning to think about .
He was actually a hardcore MKUltra test subject Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:07:12 ] know that he was , I mean , he , he ran the Irish mob , but then he also had all these CIA connections and they later find out , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ along , but I didn ’ t know about the MKUltra thing , Chris Knowles : [ 00:07:27 ] I think , I believe when he was imprisoned in San Francisco , it was , I don ’ t know if it was , Alcatraz , and he was basically locked in a cell for like a month and just given mega doses of LSD .
And then he was sent home , sent back to Boston , South Boston , and became , you know , a major mod figure .
And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ lot of people who are in the area at the time , and we ’ re in the know , they were telling you that basically Boston was run by these two brothers .
That above-board business was done by Billy and the underworld business was done by people .
So this is something that was very cognizant of , and I ’ ll tell you something where I used to play basketball with my friends , a park two blocks away from my house .
It was right across the street from @ @ @ @ @ @ @ carried out .
And they had dumped the body in the , in the dumpster .
And , you know , we were playing basketball when that all that was going down , and I didn ’ t realize so many years later what was really going on is that they were .
Fishing out of body from a dumpster that , that why do you fold your head ?
Yeah , basically placed there right across the street from where we play basketball .
So I mean , this is the kind @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it was really cognizant of , I mean , there was a , an open pedophile operating in my junior high school .
I mean , everybody knew about it .
Everybody knew who is stable .
Boys was , he had been doing it since the late fifties he wasn ’ t arrested until 1980. he was arrested off the coast of Florida on a 52-foot yacht .
You know , this is a junior high school science teacher in the 1970s , I don ’ t think .
Yeah , I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ guys could afford 52-foot yachts if you get my meaning .
And of course , I mean , there was this all sorts of , I couldn ’ t believe it when I was looking into , and I was like , you know , this was my .
The air that I breathe .
So I kind of wanted to explore some of these ideas and some of these events in a fictional setting , but I always wanted to write a book that was like super .
Entertaining , you know @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of people , you know , I ’ m really gratified cause a lot of people who , commented on it , we reviewed it , have said that , you know , it is a thrill ride in the page turn .
And that ’ s really what I wanted to create because you can go over this material and it kind of gets to be medicinal .
But I wanted to do so in a , in a context , in a setting that is very exciting and thrilling .
Alex @ @ @ @ @ @ @ very briefly high-level fact versus fiction remote viewing and how that factors into he will live up in the sky .
Chris Knowles : [ 00:09:51 ] Well , one of the things that influenced this book in a , in a major way that I hadn ’ t met Russell Targ who started the .
A remote viewing program at Sri , and I had also met at may who had taken it over when , I guess sort of the government and CIA sort of stepped in and , and targeted @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ re kind of , you know , back burn it a bit , but there was a real program , it started in the early seventies , at Stanford research Institute , and it was involved with , Unconventional intelligence gathering through remote viewing and remote viewing , I guess traditionally would be considered astral projection .
you know , those are sort of a lot of people thinking that it ’ s psychic or .
But I think , Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:10:41 ] well , it is all those @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to this show knows all about the remote viewing thing .
And I ’ ve interviewed ed may and what a jerk .
I mean , really , you know , there he is .
He ’ s doing this .
Totally extended consciousness stuff and he ’ s trying to jam it back into this materialist perspective .
He ’ s descended on and Hayton on Dean Radin , who ’ s probably done more real scientific , bring it into the lab , kind of work on this stuff than anyone @ @ @ @ @ @ @ participants .
Joe McMonagle , who comes on my show again and interviews and says , yeah , it ’ s all about near death experience , and I knew that I had a near death experience .
They know all these extended consciousness realms are linked .
And here ’ s ed may , who ran the program for 10 years and comes out and says , Nope , Nope .
None of that .
None of that .
I mean , I don ’ t know if there ’ s a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is on all this stuff , but there ’ s also just this level of , cluelessness that just is hard to sort through .
And I think we could have a deep conversation about .
Russell target also , who is kind of the white Knight to help put off who is this Navy intelligence guy from the beginning and is also showing up in the Scientology stuff and is showing up , you know , now on stage with , with the tic tech guys and the , to the stars @ @ @ @ @ @ @ stuff .
So , I mean , the , the beat keeps going on and on , but really T this is .
Well , the angle that you are taking , it seems to me in this book , that ’ s what I wanted to really pin down is are these guys good guys , bad guys , and are you , or what are you hinting at in terms of how we should understand how this remote viewing program , which is really a child of the MKUltra program , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ worldview .
Chris Knowles : [ 00:12:38 ] Well , let me just get back to ed may because I had had some conversations with that nice private conversations and I had sat in a private discussion presentation where ed may basically went through the data and he told a much different story than I think he told you .
so maybe it ’ s a public private thing .
I ’ m not exactly sure .
I can ’ t speak for red , but I ’ m actually surprised to hear @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 00:13:03 ] He just parses things in a very kind of way that I ’ ve heard a million times from these guys .
It ’ s , you know , carefully crafted speech .
What I , when I talked to him , he really got pissed off .
cause I just called him on his bullshit .
I mean , about Joe McMonagle who I had on the show and Joe says , yeah , I had an NDE .
Here ’ s Joe McMonagle secrets by number zero zero one @ @ @ @ @ @ @ spy on the East German West German border .
I ’ m poisoned in a restaurant in West Germany on the water , and I die on the way to the door from poisoning .
I immediately leave my body , have a near death experience , see them driving me , the hospital , all this .
When I wake up , the guys that are there to debrief me .
Say , where are what , what ’ s going on ?
He says , I just had an NDE .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ at Stanford research Institute and his , you know , sealed super-secret file opens up and they pull out Raymond booties book about near death experience .
And they say , essentially , this is why you ’ re here because we understand there ’ s a connection .
Ed may completely denies that .
He says , I know Joe McMonagle .
There ’ s no connection in our program between near death experience and remote viewing .
I don ’ t think he ’ s shading that .
I don ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ up .
I think he ’ s just .
I don ’ t know .
I mean , that ’ s like one of the deeper dive questions that I have for you is how do we resolve these differences ?
The differences between ed , may Russell Targ a hell put off because it ’ s one thing to say , Oh , it ’ s all woven together into this grand conspiracy , but I don ’ t think it is .
I think it ’ s just a bunch of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ elephant from different angles .
Chris Knowles : [ 00:14:46 ] No , I think that ’ s exactly right .
But you also have to consider that these are guys who are involved in .
Intelligence work for most of their careers and had to sign all sorts of oats .
And , and you know , nondisclosure agreements .
They aren ’ t necessarily free to discuss a lot of the details and the ins and outs of what they were involved with .
like I said , I mean , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ story than , than I had heard him say in private .
So I can ’ t really speak for add , and I don ’ t know exactly what he ’ s getting at .
But .
I mean , I was going to tell you , I was a remote viewing skeptic .
I really was until I met , you know , people like Russell Targ and Dean Radin and it may , and had a chance to talk to them privately and listen to these presentations that they gave @ @ @ @ @ @ @ You know , it ’ s very hard to say , people are very guarded about this material .
I mean , we ’ re talking about intelligence gathering for a number of years .
I mean , you , you know , you allude to the Scientology issue .
I , it was pretty well known that pretty much everybody involved in the remote viewing program was a Scientologist .
I don ’ t know if there was somebody , evangelizing Scientology .
To them , but you know , that ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on , when it sort of became under the auspices of the more of the military than the intelligence community , you had what were called the witches , which were these women who , you know , were said to be very effective , remote viewers .
But we ’ re seen as almost sinister figures by , you know , other people in the military .
And it was , they were seen as almost like seductive And , and had very much an unsavory reputation , but they were doing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it ’ s very hard to say you have to take everything with a grain of salt that you hear and you just have to sort of take things in aggregate , you know , what is the gestalt of this ?
What is this sort of the some impression that you get and proceed from there .
But like I said , I was very much remote viewing skeptic because my experience with Royal viewing was coast to coast .
And .
At Dames , and you know these people in the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , you remember all that stuff back in the 90s I just thought , well , this is just kind of like a sigh op or a hoax or just information thing .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:17:05 ] We could launch off into another topic here , and I think we will , because it ’ s a super interesting one to me , and that ’ s that you kind of touch on the role that the quote unquote skeptics .
And I think for the most part , the skeptical @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it ’ s the James Randi thing is over in with it .
And I went the whole thing .
James .
Randy , such an interesting character , I don ’ t know if you knew this , but James , Randy , who was famous for making all these just outrageous claims about himself .
You know , highest IQ ever recorded , you know , had a special pass to the library .
All this just ridiculous stuff .
But the other thing , tying back to , and I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was somewhere in new England , he claims he was a .
A gay man , which he reveals much later in his life , but early on he was involved with these prank sexual phone calls with these teenagers , and this came out in a court document and Claimed that the police department had asked him to try and ensnare these kids .
He ’ s like 14-year-old kids to get them to do sex talk on the phone .
This to me sounds like an , I know you from @ @ @ @ @ @ @ compromised individual , so however we ’ re supposed to understand , we understand that he has somehow .
An agent , a compromise thing , but then you take the skeptical thing as it relates to remote viewing .
A lot different , but other things , the way that , I ’ m trying to tie this back to the Stanford research Institute .
If you go back , and we did it on this show , the Sri put out a video with URI Geller and the tests that they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ psychic abilities of URI Geller , and I also had jock valet on this show confirming that .
No shock place , not a dummy .
you know , super successful venture capitalist and just genius computer scientist .
This is kind of guy .
He said , yeah , I , I , he , he didn ’ t , there was no full Raya .
I , he demonstrated a real ability and he says on the show how he did it , but also in these videos that Stanford research @ @ @ @ @ @ @ dummies .
I mean , Russell Targ and how put off are top notch scientists .
I mean like laser physics scientists at a degree that I don ’ t understand , but I understand it enough to know they ’ re really competent .
These tests are not hard to do in terms of testing that URI Geller had .
These ESP abilities as he claimed and was able to draw things that were hidden and these other things , those are out there , those are published .
You can still @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I ’ m surprised that you were quote unquote skeptical of the remote viewing thing .
I thought since the 70s they had pretty much proven it and the skeptical thing , to me , it was always .
As you explore in this book , kind of the , I don ’ t know what kind of operation that is , but it was a , some kind of Cy optic kind of smear or something that , you know , but I ’ ll say one more thing and I ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hear you .
But in the , in the 70s or in the 80s you had Ted Koppel .
Who was our source for nightly , you know , late time news , doing a full expo , say on remote viewing , right ?
And saying their Stargate were spying against the Russians .
This is real .
And he has total credibility to it .
And then for some reason they did a switch on that and then it became James , Randy , Oh , this is probably all just @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on TV and all that .
So I don ’ t know who changed the narrative on that , but that ’ s the part I can ’ t really understand Well , if you look at who is involved in say , psyop in the early days , I mean , they had all kinds of connections to the CIA , to military intelligence , to MK ultra .
I mean , up and down the line , if you really dig into the histories of these people , you have a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , who , you know , I ’ m not exactly sure is an entirely credible source , but he had said that , Randy was basically , working for the DOD , that he was basically a dissemination agent for the department of defense .
I ’ d actually heard those tapes that you talked about , the ones that Randy , had taken part in .
And I , you know , I ’ m familiar .
I read the , the court case where he , it ’ s shockingly @ @ @ @ @ @ @ story that he concocted about the police department and so on .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:21:34 ] Where was the , where was that ?
What city was it Chris Knowles : [ 00:21:36 ] in ?
I don ’ t even remember , but it was Chris Knowles : [ 00:21:40 ] in there someplace .
It might ’ ve been .
I , I don ’ t recall .
But it was absurd .
It was ridiculous .
And even the judges , the judge , like admonished him and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ credible .
This is just , you know , you ’ re just talking nonsense in my courtroom .
So I , yeah , I think it ’ s clear that Randy was compromised and Randy was sort of , he was following the UFO .
He was in those kinds of circles , you know , the late .
Sort of the tail end of the long John Nebel show and that whole period , you know , he was hanging around with the people who were involved , like Mosley sauce @ @ @ @ @ @ @ these kinds of things .
So he was just a very strange guy and , you know , but he was also somebody who had sort of worshiped at the feet of Houdini and kind of wanted to walk in his footsteps and so on .
Yeah , I mean , it ’ s , it ’ s clear that , that Randy , what was somehow compromised .
but Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:22:34 ] you draw , you draw these links with like bill Nye the science guy and Richard Dawkins @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you tie into .
I don ’ t remember what was on the blog , Chris Knowles : [ 00:22:46 ] where I ’ ve done a lot of that on the blog .
Sure .
I mean , bill Nye is .
I , I mean , I think the man ’ s a fraud .
I mean , he himself as a scientist , and he has no degrees in science .
I mean , he has a degree in engineering .
but he has all sorts of connections to the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ like I said , if you start doing some digging with these people , you find that they do .
But you ’ re right , it ’ s over .
It ’ s not even worth it .
Even discussing at this point , because it was clearly just a kind of a CYOP or operation or something to our campaign .
You just kind of turn things around and , and , you know , change the tone of the conversation .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:23:26 ] bring it back @ @ @ @ @ @ @ out there saying , .
During the expo , say on remote viewing , we don ’ t know whether it ’ s a real ass expo Zay like anything in the media , but it seemed to be somewhat real that like they didn ’ t necessarily want that to come out and it ’ s very just kind of straight up what the program was .
Then why would they then pull it back ?
Because .
You know , Lance , my Kia just did a movie .
I don @ @ @ @ @ @ @ seen it or talked to him about third ice buys where they do this kind of world tour or with Russell Targ and he goes around .
And so the first question , you know , I have her first got to have her Lance ’ s , you mean to tell me the CIA for the vanity of this nice old guy released 60,000 previously classified documents .
I just don ’ t think that ’ s the way things go .
I think it ’ s more likely that there were @ @ @ @ @ @ @ story or change the narrative .
So it went from Ted Koppel releasing it to early Geller and , James , Randy , you know , just this rise of this skeptical , Oh , don ’ t listen to any of that stuff .
And Ray Hyman , you know , the official CIA .
academic .
Now it ’ s like , Oh no , we can talk about this stuff again .
And Oh , it ’ s all released .
It ’ s all real .
What do you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : [ 00:24:51 ] I think it just modus operandi , , it ’ s , it ’ s muddying the waters .
It ’ s , , sowing confusion and doubt a claim .
Counterclaim .
Acknowledgement , denial , , this is something that you see over and over again .
We ’ re seeing what this whole , you know , you alluded to the tick tack thing .
I mean , we ’ re seeing the same exact process take place with that .
So , I mean , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
You know , you have to really learn to sort of , again , see things in aggregate and read between the lines .
You have to sort of see where , The lies are and where the truth is , and it can be very difficult .
You know , it can be very difficult to parse , , Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:25:29 ] how do you handle that in , in the book , Chris , he will live up in the sky .
It really revolves around a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ abilities and people involved in and around the program and that will , what was it that interested you in that ?
Chris Knowles : [ 00:25:47 ] What interested me is that there was a big blow up in the early nineties about the remote viewing campaign , which I guess at that point was under the Stargate ages and Congress shut it down .
Congress had defunded it .
But there were a lot of , the work was being privatized , people , you know , ed Dames , who @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , in the Army ’ s program , and a number of his people started sort of selling their services to the highest bidder .
And I wanted to look at the , the process where , and this is an ongoing process that , Oh .
Folds in more , more activities then remote viewing or whatever is just how things that were under the ages of the government , things that you could access through freedom of information and so on and so forth .
We , there was some sort @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the 1990s where they could be locked away forever .
they could be .
Made totally inaccessible as corporate secrets .
They could be made totally inaccessible .
Just because it ’ s a private entity that has , that has no responsibility .
The freedom event information act , and I wanted , that was sort of my starting point .
I wanted to suppose or pause it , a situation where somebody who had been very deeply involved in a government program .
Then retired and creative , basically a cutout @ @ @ @ @ @ @ work without accountability and sort of do so , you know , in a more bare-knuckled fashion than I think you would see in the , the official programs .
And again , I , I have no access to this inflammation .
It ’ s , it ’ s , it ’ s conjecture on my part , but we do have examples of when .
Activities taking place within the military or intelligence are privatized and we just get little glimmers .
We ’ ll see .
You know , how @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
And that ’ s something that I really wanted to explore and I wanted to explore the mentality of the people who would devote their lives to these kinds of activities .
And again , it ’ s something where I don ’ t have access to the , to the private information , I don ’ t have access to .
Papers and things that are all locked away under corporate privilege .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:28:21 ] I ’ ve been re-watching Breaking Bad .
I want to play @ @ @ @ @ @ @ think is the Quint essential clip from the whole series .
And I think speaks directly to me to this question about the underlying psychologists .
Let me play this clip and then I want to get some thoughts from you on it .
This is Walt near the very , and of his run , talking to Skylar in their kitchen .
So this is a way inside baseball .
If you don ’ t know breaking bad , you won ’ t get it .
But if you do , might @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for you .
All the things that I did .
Chris Knowles : [ 00:29:03 ] You need to understand .
Chris Knowles : [ 00:29:05 ] to hear one more time Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:29:10 ] that you did this Chris Knowles : [ 00:29:11 ] for the family .
I did it for me .
Chris Knowles : [ 00:29:26 ] Mine was good at it .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:29:33 ] I was alive .
Wow .
To me , that speaks so much to these super Patriot @ @ @ @ @ @ @ us that they ’ re doing it all for us or for their country or for some other reason .
W. w. D what do you think Chris Knowles : [ 00:29:53 ] about that ?
I think that a lot of these people can become so delusional that they identify their own personal motivations with the , the good of the country .
And that ’ s another thing that I explore and try and have dialogues within the story about .
Different characters explaining the motivations and , and that ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s , it ’ s based on things that I ’ ve read and things that I ’ ve seen .
I , I wanted to explore that .
Like what motivates these people ?
What drives them to do these things ?
You know , you ’ re not going to get glory and very often you ’ re not going to get rich , you , you have a sort of fanatic mentality at work here that I think .
It can be very destabilizing , particularly as technology progresses @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I think one of the reasons why there might be so much confusion sown about it is because if it ’ s operant .
It ’ s a pretty dangerous technology that you have no defense against .
You can defend against , you know , drones , and you can defend against listening devices and you can do defend against spies .
I mean , how are you going to defend against somebody who leaves their body and can travel to your underground base that ’ s a mile under , you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as we ’ ve seen reports on , you know , how do you do that ?
There ’ s no defense against it .
So I think that ’ s one of the reasons why this topic became so sensitive , you know ?
And one of the things I just winding the clock back a bit to Randy .
When did he go after Geller ?
He went after Geller at a very specific point in time .
He wouldn ’ t have to go after Andrew porridge published his book @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
religious texts about the nine , you know , the council of nine .
And how , Oh , how rich had credited Geller is a .
Power is , or you know , beliefs or abilities , however you choose to to coach it .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:32:01 ] But he to , we would have to back up and maybe you can do a quick sketch of a Padre itch , who we ’ ve talked about a lot on this show and have interviewed the guy who @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and has the Permission and help of his son .
But you know , he ’ s at , he ’ s at a PhD at Northwestern university , which was an MKUltra hub .
And you could just imagine these super smart guys get these super important academic positions .
At least they think .
And then someone pulls the rug out from a meeting and says , Hey , by the way , you ’ re working for .
You ’ re working for Sydney , godly been the reboot of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and it ’ s all under this , and then he does the whole entheogens thing , the fake , you know , we ’ re going to discover that , but it ’ s real .
I mean , there , there ’ s , and then the nines thing is totally out there , but are you suggesting that that was , there was like this counter disinformation at the same time because Padre just clearly working for the .
Left-hand path , CIA folks .
Are you suggesting that different @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , what are we talking about here ?
Chris Knowles : [ 00:33:04 ] I think , I think Andrea basically spilled the beans , and exposed a strain of thinking within his , Neil , you that they did not want to get out .
I , I think that he , well , first of all , he so clearly .
Become , as they say , high on his own supply .
I mean , I think the man had been damaged his brain through excessive ingestion of mushrooms and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on the mushroom thing since the late fifties and you know , he , his involvement with the nine , he claims that it dates back to 1952 at these experiments in a , in a house in Glen Cove , Maine .
Just a very remote location up the coast .
So I think that they didn ’ t want that information getting out and they didn ’ t , I don ’ t think that they wanted sort of a religion equate is I religion to revolve around Geller , which @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , he is a very charismatic man , very intelligent , very well spoken .
And I think there was a fear that his .
Charisma would lead to a cult .
And they did not want that .
And they also did not want talking about the nine .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:34:24 ] What about the fact , and again , we ’ re , we ’ re way past , this is total inside baseball here , folks .
I apologize , but if it ’ s anything you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ re deep in the rabbit hole with Chris Nye .
What about Padre drayage connection to the massage , right ?
Cause he goes and gets yeller from the Mossad .
So Geller is in Israel and we laid , found Fridays .
Always been connected to Israeli intelligence , and he brings Chris Knowles : [ 00:34:46 ] over as an agent .
Keller was , Keller was a massage agent and which was it ?
CIA handler .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:34:53 ] correct , but and so correct @ @ @ @ @ @ @ filling any of the gaps , but at this point .
is also connected to Sri .
He knows that this program is going on and they say , Hey , you know , we ’ ve got this Ingo Swan guy find us other , you know , he goes , Oh , you know , here ’ s another guy over here .
Let ’ s bring him into the mix .
So at this point , I kind of see it as this , it ’ s not like a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ how all the cards are going to fall .
So they ’ re just kind of trying to .
Pull in all these resources and then it just gets stranger and stranger .
I mean , what can you add to that or correct on that , Chris Knowles : [ 00:35:28 ] I think , I think you ’ re right , but I think a lot , they were just running with the ball and I don ’ t think they had a tremendous amount of oversight , and they were @ @ @ @ @ @ @ them , you know , the ability .
Just sort of act on their own .
did , if you ’ ve read the , the work of , Of John Ronson or seeing the movie , the men who stare at goats , he sort of kind of goes into this with the , what was it called ?
The new earth army that , you know , that program that was , or the first earth army , so I forget the exact name .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:36:05 ] @ @ @ @ @ @ @ right ?
This is exactly what the Nazis documented that they were doing with their super soldier .
You throw Nazi in and everyone .
Freaks out .
But no , I mean , it ’ s all documented .
They were doing the super soldier thing , so , but go ahead .
Chris Knowles : [ 00:36:20 ] Well , a lot of it was , was , you know , this whole idea that jet I and psychic powers of soldiers creating , you know , a more effective peaceable @ @ @ @ @ @ @ think there were a lot of things going on .
And with Geller ’ s popularity , I mean , gala was a nightclub performer and it charisma , they did not want .
Is bleeding out .
They did not want the ball unraveling .
I don ’ t remember exactly when the remote viewing program became public , but it hadn ’ t really become widespread known until then , the 90s with the whole controversy about Stargate and the Congress shutting the programs down .
And you know , the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And it ’ s , it ’ s very interesting to see how often the religious right and the skeptical community , join forces or work in tandem .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:37:10 ] So tell you what , when you talk to the insiders on the remote viewing program , which is another angle , you know , we had a conversation , maybe it ’ s a couple of years ago at this point , which was just extraordinary and you opened my eyes to so many things .
But @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was this kind of bracketed reality where these things make sense .
They ’ re internally coherent at different levels , but when you step back , that ’ s just complete craziness .
The Catholic church is like the example we talked about before .
Well , I think this is kind of an example as well .
the political forces at play in the remote viewing program from everyone you talk to inside that program was very real .
You had very real Christian believing senators , congressmen oversight viewers , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a Christian .
Belief that this stuff was wrong and they didn ’ t , they weren ’ t interested in exploring it in any kind of esoteric occultic kind of way .
It ’ s just like , it ’ s against the bottle , it ’ s Satan , it ’ s all wrong .
And that they had a real force in kind submarining this program .
And then you had a whole other group of people that were like , Jesus Christ .
If we run our government based @ @ @ @ @ @ @ dogma , we ’ ll never get anything done .
So they have this kind of .
Continuity of government thing , and they ’ re saying , you know , just don ’ t tell him .
Don ’ t tell him .
Like , we don ’ t tell him the UFO program .
We don ’ t tell them all the rest of this stuff .
This is just another thing .
We ’ ll just go underground .
And actually the ultimate insider kit green , that ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ remote viewing program , which you alluded to too .
It ’ s like , yeah , just .
Had to take it off the table kind of thing .
So there ’ s a lot to unpack there , but I don ’ t know that I agree that these groups are necessarily in cahoots .
I mean , I think a lot of the Christians that were opposing the remote viewing program or just straight on , Chris Knowles : [ 00:38:58 ] well , I , they ’ re working @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , there ’ s no question about that .
I mean , there are documents and , and new stories that you can look up where .
They were working hand in hand or against which they thought , which they saw as a mutual threat .
So , I mean , there is a history on that .
That ’ s , that ’ s fairly well known .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:39:15 ] , what is the history on that as you know it ?
Chris Knowles : [ 00:39:19 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the , the Christian conservatives that were .
Railing against the program , you know , particularly in Congress , but also in the Pentagon .
Right .
But at the same time , you had people from sidecar doing audits of the program do Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:39:35 ] of work in those folks .
Chris Knowles : [ 00:39:36 ] Yeah .
And , and basically saying , you know , this was , this is a waste of money and this was nonsense , and so on and so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ] But do you think they were knowingly working together or that someone was kind of managing that at a higher level and saying , Oh , these are all working , both these forces are working towards our interest of derailing this Chris Knowles : [ 00:39:55 ] thing .
Well , there was kind of a detente between the two groups .
you know , Stephen Jay Gould , who was one of the major movers and shakers in the skeptical movement in the seventies and eighties .
You know , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ science were non overlapping that just Steria and they both sort of had a common interest in fighting what they saw as a rationality , new new ageism , you know , which had been very popular in the , and you know .
Military in intelligence circles , particularly in on the California , the Bay area .
You know , it ’ s fascinating to see how you follow GG and remote viewing and hi technology , the internet and all these kinds of things grew out of the same kettle @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of grew from the same exact soil , the same plot .
So I think there was a tremendous amount of concern about that that .
Who is driving this material ?
Who is going to be at the helm , is it going to be , you know , these kind of wackos like Puthoff and Targ and Jacques Vallée and so on and so forth .
You know , who they would see as wackos .
There were these strange beliefs and Scientologists and Rosa Cruz and so on .
Or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are more sober-minded and rational , quote unquote .
So I think that there was a tremendous interest .
Mutual interests in both these groups that you would think of being , is it as opposite in , in fighting the same enemy ?
But if you , if you dig below the surface , you start to realize that both of them , we ’ re , you know , there were like two hands at the same puppet .
You know , they , they were both answering to the same @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in the military and intelligence communities .
I mean , that ’ s , that ’ s pretty well documented .
And this is not , you know , conjecture or supposition on my part that , you know , again , we see all the people involved in psyop and similar groups in similar movements .
Having all kinds of military and intelligence connections .
And we also see the same thing with , you know , the Christian conservative movement is , a well-known CIA agent , whose name escapes me @ @ @ @ @ @ @ said that he had basically created .
the modern evangelical movement with , these Christian groups on college campuses that he was using , sort of to counteract the influence of like the antiwar movement and the hippies and so on .
And , you know , that again is pretty well documented .
I mean , going back to the forties , it ’ s very well documented that , Billy Graham was very close with Alan Dallas had very good , close connections , close friendship with him and , and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ people .
In the Rockefeller orbit and so on .
So it all kind of grows out of the same pot , so to speak .
And again , when , one of the things that I really wanted to explore in the book is that if you take , if you had taken the work out of the public sphere , you know , off the public kitty , so to speak , and done .
So under ostensibly private group , you would have a lot more leeway to do whatever @ @ @ @ @ @ @ would have very little oversight and you would be unaccountable to the public about it .
And that ’ s something , again , that is not , I mean , I was placing it in , in this fictional context with , with remote viewing and so on .
But we see this all the time .
I mean , this has become pandemic , you know , with the use of private corporations running .
Military operations , you know , these military contractors , DynCorp , XE , all these @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , I wanted to explore like how would , how would something as ostensibly esoteric and fringe as remote viewing operate in the same context that private military contractors would operate in .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:43:47 ] I can ’ t get too worked up about that because whenever I look back in history , I don ’ t find a time when we were more free , where information… whether we had access to the freedom of information act or not , great , but there was a level of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ didn ’ t have this web of knowledge that we now have , that really supports all of us , that we can stand on and say things in a factual way .
So I think it ’ s kind of a balancing act .
Yeah , they were more open and the Freedom of Information Cct , but that ’ s because people knew hell of a lot less .
I ’ ll tell you what , we are pressed for time here , but there ’ s a couple of things @ @ @ @ @ @ @ which I think will lie beneath a lot of these topics we ’ re talking about .
I want to talk about evil .
I ’ m actually writing a book on why evil matters .
It ’ s kind of like , you know , the first book I wrote , the premise of it was , if science gets consciousness wrong , then it really can ’ t get anything right .
And the premise of the second book is , if you ’ re not willing to look at evil @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a lot , and particularly the kind of malevolent forces that transcends space and time , if you will .
I use extended consciousness sometimes , but a lot of people don ’ t like that term .
But if you ’ re not willing to go there with evil , then you ’ re really not talking about anything .
So , what do you think about the evil question , particularly as it relates to the book and how you kind of get to what ’ s really behind all of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ] Yeah .
It ’ s interesting you brought this up because this is something I ’ ve been thinking quite a bit about , and I think that the descent into evil , into evil thinking , it goes in steps .
It ’ s sort of like an initiatory process , so to speak .
I don ’ t think people , except for like some weirdos who are into Satanism or whatever , nobody sets out thinking , “ I ’ m going to be evil.
” I think that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I am going to be better than you and I am going to solve the problems that you can not solve .
I ’ m going to solve the problems of the world , ” and that old Stalin phrase , “ If you have to crack a few eggs to make this beautiful omelet so be it.
” I think that the ends justify the means is kind of the gateway , that ’ s the doorway to evil , to evil acts , to evil intentions .
But I think that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of thinking , there ’ s another cliché , “ The road to hell is paved with good intentions , ” and that ’ s something , again , that I really wanted to explore .
I wanted to explore how would people that would descend into what we would see as like the ultimate evil , how would they justify themselves ?
And this is something I ’ ve thought a lot about for many years because I think about , like comic book supervillains , Lex Luthor and Dr Doom and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , not only as above the rest of us , but they always see themselves as the good guy .
I think the worst villains are the ones who see themselves as the good guy .
William B. Davis who played the Smoking Man and the X-Files , it always said that he was the hero of the story , that Mulder was , you know , this troublemaker and this villain , that he was the one who was rational and considered and thought out his plans and did so in a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I think that , again , that the worst evil is done by those who can justify , somehow it ’ s a kind of mirror imaging that we see so often .
One of the things that I find so troubling is the way this is kind of being presented in the public , where Satanists now , where they ’ re not these weirdos , many of whom have extremely unwholesome sexual appetites , they ’ re the heroes of free speech and constitutional rights .
I mean , that ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
And you ’ ll have girl ’ s magazines aimed at tweens and young girls , how to summon a demon .
It ’ s like , I ’ m sorry , what ?
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:48:08 ] Why are you laughing about that ?
Chris Knowles : [ 00:48:09 ] I ’ m laughing at the absurdity of it is what I ’ m laughing at .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:48:12 ] Well , what is the absurdity of it ?
Because I think you ’ re open @ @ @ @ @ @ @ your writing , and I think you ’ re also cautious .
You tell a cautionary tale of people who take the leap and dabble in occultism and magic rituals and stuff like that .
And you ’ re not doing it from like this heavy-duty Christian Bible way , you ’ re just saying , “ Hey , my life experience tells me that a lot of people get into stuff that they didn ’ t anticipate.
” Well , all of that presupposes that there ’ s a certain reality to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ re talking about the hip , kind of cultural tweener , kind of pop culture thing , the part that gives me pause is people who are connecting with these extended consciousness realms in order to seek power and to seek personal gain .
And we have that recorded throughout history , and you ’ ve recorded it in your books and on your blog .
So don ’ t we need to address or at least throw that on the table ?
To what extent can you use spirit forces to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the claim being made .
Is there any truth to it ?
Chris Knowles : [ 00:49:23 ] Well , this is something that I ’ ve written about quite a bit , particularly in the past couple years .
My basic advice is just stay away from it .
You know , stay away from… If you think you can summon a demon and control it , first of all , there are two possibilities .
One is that it ’ s just absolute fantasy on your part , absolute delusion .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ reality , there is a reality to summoning these energies and these forces , whether it ’ s psychological or paraphysical .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:49:53 ] I ’ ve got to pin your down there .
Is it all psychological or is it paraphysical ?
Chris Knowles : [ 00:50:00 ] But the point being is that if you could summon a creature that ’ s powerful enough to change your life or to curse somebody or whatever you think you want , what do you have to offer them ?
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ if it ’ s some disembodied spirit that is immortal or eternal or what have you ?
What do you have to offer them ?
You have nothing to offer them .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:50:26 ] Chris , that is what ’ s being sold in the magic community .
They ’ re saying , “ Well , if you just do this grimoire properly , with the sharpened sword at this angle , drawn in this way.
” What a mind fuck to tell people , “ Then you will… @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I forget this professor ’ s name , he ’ s been on The Greg Show and a bunch of… You know , “ You will then command .
The demon will then be compelled to… ” How are you going to compel that kind of force ?
It seems such a shill deal that people fall for .
I don ’ t get how people can be so naive .
Chris Knowles : [ 00:51:06 ] People are so naive because they don ’ t have an experience , they don ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ re talking a lot of people , a cohort of people who are incredibly privileged .
Who grew up an era of wealth and privilege , absolutely unparalleled in human history , a sheltered existence , and also they were programmed by the media , they were programmed by a lot of these shows on television , kid ’ s television , that taught them that they could do these things .
I ’ ve really come to the point in my life where I ’ m just like , don ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
It ’ s interesting to study , it ’ s interesting to watch from a distance , but I ’ ve got to tell , I ’ m really at a point right now and I ’ ve said this on a number of interviews and podcasts over the past several years , don ’ t do it .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:51:56 ] Can we really say don ’ t do it ?
Because when we say don ’ t do it , it also feels a little bit churchy @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I understand the nature or the order of the extended consciousness realm .
I understand the mind of God and therefore don ’ t do it .
You know what I mean ?
Chris Knowles : [ 00:52:15 ] I don ’ t even need to go that far .
I mean , I would tell them to just do a little research .
I mean , read Colin Wilson ’ s book The Occult , and he sort of very interestingly details how many of these stories of great magicians in history @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s another book that I read a number of years ago that had a tremendous influence on me and I ’ ve talked about also in a number of different interviews , is a book by a gentleman named [ unclear 00:52:39 ] , who was one of these pop… parapsychologist I guess is a better word .
He was one of these figures that there were a lot of in the 20s and 30s who were very theatrical , almost like stage magicians , but incorporate a lot of occultism .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ and sorcerers and so on throughout history , and it ’ s one of the grimmest damn things you ’ ve ever read .
Because every single story , every single chapter ends badly .
You name it , you name these great figures .
Of course , we ’ ve seen how Crowley ended up , how Jack Parsons ended up .
Kenneth Anger seems to be hanging in there but I ’ ve spoken to the man and I ’ ve dealt with his people , he ’ s had some @ @ @ @ @ @ @ would inspire to duplicate .
So I don ’ t think you need to appeal to biblical authority , you just need to look at how people who have pursued these courses of action , how their story ended .
And I can not off the top of my head think of a single story that did not end badly , outside of people who are involved in the arts who were basically writers and musicians and so on and they sort of incorporated these occult ideas into their work .
But otherwise @ @ @ @ @ @ @ does .
You don ’ t need to look very far .
Anton LeVay was a miserable husk of a man for the last 15 , 20 years of his life .
I have a friend who lived in San Francisco that lived two doors down from him on California Street , and he ’ s a guy who ’ s actually a skeptical , rational atheist .
But he said every time I went by that house you just kind of felt this void , this out , and he said that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s actually , you know , typical rational atheist , but he said , every time you went by that house , you just kind of felt this void , this gnawing vacuum .
And they eventually tore the house down .
It had been painted black , it hadn ’ t been kept up , the yard and the siding and so on was in disrepair .
I think that it ’ s just , don ’ t do it , don ’ t mess around with it .
If you think @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the power to curse somebody , again , what do you have to offer them ?
You don ’ t have anything to offer them .
And in the case of , say like the Curse Trump people , I mean , do you really think that Trump doesn ’ t have people in his employ ?
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:55:05 ] I think it ’ s more like we were saying before and I think discerning this kind of is important because we get the message , you know , what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Trump ?
What do you think about dah , dah , dah ?
No , that ’ s not the point .
The point is why do you think you can marshal these forces for your gain ?
And why are you seeking gain anyway , why are you getting into this materialist backdoor spiritual materialism thing that you need to gain ?
You are going to die .
There is a moral imperative .
There is right and wrong .
You will judge yourself , in terms of how well you did @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
How is any of that going to help you in the big picture ?
It isn ’ t .
Chris Knowles : [ 00:55:45 ] I ’ ve written several posts saying exactly that .
Not in as many words , but you know , basically that same message and again , it ’ s something that I ’ ve seen , it ’ s something that I ’ ve read about .
It ’ s something that you can all see and read about .
It just doesn ’ t lead @ @ @ @ @ @ @ troubles me how it ’ s being marketed .
It ’ s being marketed as cute and rebellious and fun and so on and so forth .
And tie in with all of the other things that are going on , particularly with kids , the influences that are just assaulting children on a daily basis , it ’ very troubling to me .
But again , evil does not start off as evil .
Evil starts off , it sells itself as good , “ No they ’ re evil .
You @ @ @ @ @ @ @ re the good guys , we ’ ve just gotten a bad rap because they write the history , but they ’ re the bad guys , ” so on and so forth .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:56:38 ] Well , you know , there ’ s another part of this , and I really wanted to get on and talk about the ET stuff before you go and see if we can help your cat , which is sad to think about , but hey , we ’ re talking about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with the whole Sabbatean Frankist death cult ?
Chris Knowles : [ 00:56:57 ] Yeah , there ’ a guy by the name of Barry Chamish who is also a ufologist who has done a lot of work on that topic .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:57:05 ] Because in a way that does help explain it , in that if you take this desire that some people have to seek a power by any means , and an evil somehow pushes their misconfigured , spiritual and energy forces , which I think @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s maybe happening .
And then they extend that to the extended realm and say , “ Oh wow , there ’ an extended realm that will also push the buttons in me that somehow make me feel less miserable and less lost and let ’ s just go with that , even though I ’ m destroying other people ’ s lives.
” Well , double-down with that and get some crazy cult that reads the bible and says , “ You know , it says right there in the bible @ @ @ @ @ @ @ will come is when everyone ’ s good or when everyone ’ s bad , and we know we ’ re never going to get to everyone being good , so let ’ s see if we can get everyone bad.
” And this is a theme that doesn ’ t jut play out with the Sabbatean Frankists , I mean , we can see it through history , but it ’ s all part of this deception , part of this opposite day kind of mentality , that I can lie , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , I can do whatever because I am serving , as you ’ ve alluded to before , this higher purpose now and this higher purpose is to bring about evil and destruction in order to bring about the good .
So it ’ s just another way to tweak the craziness that gets into the cultish kind of mentality .
I don ’ t know if you want to touch on that at all , but it does seem to pop up a lot .
Chris Knowles : [ 00:58:47 ] Well @ @ @ @ @ @ @ wonderful new thriller , He Will Live Up in the Sky , that conversation is directly addressed .
That way of thinking is directly addressed .
There was a conversation between two of the main characters with those exact ideas that you brought up , being addressed and explored .
And again , like I said , I wanted to be able to take this into a fictional context so I could explore them without holding back , without limiting myself , without censoring myself , and that ’ s really what the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s what the idea of the premise of the book is , is that I wanted to take all of the things that I ’ ve been writing on for the past , gosh , 13 years now , 14 years , and put them in a context where people who we speculate upon , the existence who we speculate upon , people who we see in certain positions and wonder what they ’ re motivations are , that we could get inside their heads , at least how I saw it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ so on .
In that sense , the book was successful for me personally , because I wanted to understand what motivates people who would be driven to such extremes , to be doing such extremes , to be doing such extremes of philosophy and action that would impact us all in in very profound and terrible ways .
And , I couldn ’ t really do that if I was writing in a nonfiction setting without sort of sounding like a crank or some sort of , what they call a tinfoil @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : [ 01:00:31 ] Here ’ s another statement from one of the characters in He Will Live Up in the Sky regarding the UFO phenomenon and it is , “ The UFO had nothing to do with science or technology and everything to do with the occult.
” Now they ’ re kind of not saying that directly , they ’ re saying that someone else is saying it .
But this is something we have to talk about because I do hear this thread in the interviews and in reading the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ totally sure where you ’ re going with this , Chris ?
Are you a UFO , ET , kind of not totally onboard guy ?
Chris Knowles : [ 01:01:14 ] Well , one of the things that I think I ’ ve been clear about is , I don ’ t know , I ’ m basically agnostic .
During the writing of this book , actually , the five-year process of writing this book , my wife and I had had an extended citing of a chevron UFO , basically @ @ @ @ @ @ @ minutes .
We ’ d taken pictures of it with our camera phones and stuff .
The pictures aren ’ t great but you can see the shape of this thing , you can see that it ’ s a chevron .
You ’ ve seen the design before in other settings where it ’ s a chevron shape with these big illuminated domes on the other side .
So I had seen this thing when I had been taking my dog out .
Let me tell you exactly when I saw this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ movie called Curse of the Man Who Sees UFOs on Netflix and it ’ s about this guy , this experimental musician , I think he lives down Modesto and that kind of area .
And he has photographed and filmed thousands of UFOs .
So I had just watched this movie and I was just thinking about , what is it about that area that would inspire these… Is there some sort of military base , what would be some sort of special earth energies that these things would be drawn to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
But I go outside and my dog is doing her business and I look up in the sky and there ’ s this thing that looks like a plane coming out of the clouds and then tops in mid-air , and I ’ m like , planes don ’ t stop in mid-air generally .
And then I got a good look at the thing and I realized that it was a chevron UFO .
And like I said , my wife had taken some pictures of it and so on .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ you , I didn ’ t know what it was .
I ’ m about an hour by air from a major Air Force base , McGuire Air Force base , so it could have been some sort of experimental aircraft .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 01:03:16 ] How would they have gotten it ?
If you talk to all of the leading UFO researcher , you ’ ve talked to Richard Dolan like I have , and Grant Cameron that I have , the best most reliable information we have suggests that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for so many years , that we have all this reverse engineered alien tech is real , and that our science and our technology , a lot of it has connections to that .
And then , you know , you referenced Diana Walsh Pasulka in the blog , I don ’ t know if you ever read the book , but I had her on the show .
She tells an account in her book , American Cosmic , about being invited out to the desert of Nevada , finding space junk @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Durden kind of character , who stays at the Four Seasons Hotel and flies private jets because he takes the stuff and reverse engineers it into biotechnology that we don ’ t have .
And independently we might not buy that story , but it ’ s just confirmed over and over again .
So I don ’ t know why there ’ s the pullback and the hesitancy about the science and technology of ET , it just seems to be patently obvious to me .
Chris Knowles : [ 01:04:34 ] @ @ @ @ @ @ @ read Richard Dolan ’ s work , Grant Cameron , all of these books .
I read all of the books , people like Stan Friedman who are clearly proponents of the ET and the tech idea .
And that character that you allude to , that makes that statement I basically someone who is an occultist , so he would have that kind of bias , I think .
Chris Knowles : [ 01:05:05 ] The character who made that statement that you quoted is somebody who… Alex Tsakiris : [ 01:05:09 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ from He Will Live Up in the Sky .
But the whole book revolves around kind of abduction , fakery .
The one stretch for me in the book was that this woman got rich from writing a book on abduction faker .
I don ’ t see anyone getting rich on that , but anyways , that ’ s one of the themes of that .
Chris Knowles : [ 01:05:30 ] Well , it was back in the 80s .
There were a lot of bestsellers , Intruders , Communion , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ those days ?
You ’ re old like me .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 01:05:41 ] Yeah , but Communion .
I don ’ t know , do you think that ’ s fake ?
Chris Knowles : [ 01:05:46 ] I ’ m don ’ t know .
Again , I ’ m agnostic about it .
But what I wanted to do is present a number of different points of view , present a number of different angles , viewpoints .
I mean , how do we perceive this phenomenon ?
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ accept the whole ET and reverse engineering idea at face value .
Another one of the things that had really inspired this book is that my wife and my daughter and I were driving up to New Hampshire , and this is one of the reasons why I set the book in New Hampshire , is that we had seen a plane taking off from Manchester Airport and then shortly after there were these two giant orange orbs that were kind of like bird-dogging it .
I almost thought they were trying to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ were close enough and this thing was maybe a few hundred feet up in the air and we were close enough to get a good look at all this going on , the plane and these orbs and I was like , obviously those orbs are under intelligent control , those things are not just plasma balls , earth lights or something , they ’ re clearly operating under some kind of intelligent control .
And certainly , I can ’ t imagine for the life of me that those things are metal @ @ @ @ @ @ @ were auto illuminous , they looked a little fickly I guess I would say .
And that experience that my wife and I had gotten , that I had kind of written into the book of seeing the UFO from our porch .
I was looking at that object and I was like , “ Okay , there it is .
How is that thing in the air , it doesn ’ t look in any way aerodynamic for me .
If those things are lamps , if those thing of some kind @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be so heavy that the thing would fall right out of the sky .
So I have no idea what I ’ m looking at.
” And the thing was bright , it was really bright and we got a good long look at it .
This wasn ’ t some sort of fleeting thing that just swept through the corner of our vision , we were watching this thing .
I was sitting there texting with Gordon going , “ Okay , now it ’ s doing this , now it ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it went on for quite some time and I just looked at the thing and I go , “ How is that thing aerodynamic ?
” I just could not for the life of me… Any kind of propulsion system that we know about , there ’ s just no way that that thing is flying under some sort of combustion engine .
Maybe it ’ s some sort of plasma technology , who knows .
Maybe those lights are actually the propulsion , whether those lights are not just lights , those @ @ @ @ @ @ @ But I couldn ’ t see how anybody could fit in the craft .
I don ’ t know it was really… I ’ ve got to tell you , having that long a look at that strange an object was extraordinarily unsettling for me , it really was .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 01:08:31 ] Well , the book is really great .
You need to check it out .
I enjoyed it and I don ’ t read fiction .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 01:08:41 ] He Will Live Up in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is still totally owning it , rocking it , whatever you want , I don ’ t know what my kids say , I ’ ll have to ask them what they say .
But The Secret Sun blog spot is a great place to go .
Chris , in the little bit of time we have left , tell folks what ’ s new and coming up for you in the near future .
Chris Knowles : [ 01:09:04 ] Well , I am working on a sequel to the book , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ which was a huge stumbling block for me .
I couldn ’ t really figure out a good title for it .
And , I ’ m the kind of writer where I need a title , you know ?
It always sort of starts with a title and that drives the rest of the feeling of the book .
But I do have a book in the making and actually , And actually , I ’ ll just confess right now that this book was going to be a much larger book @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the 70s , take place in the 90s and then shift to the present day .
And then I just realized , that was biting off way more than I could chew , and I think it would exhaust the patience .
I don ’ t think people would accept a 1000-page novel as your first novel .
So I had to trim it down .
So a lot of the sequel has already been written and I ’ m really excited about it .
And I ’ ve been doing a lot @ @ @ @ @ @ @ number of nonfiction works that have been on the back burner for a number of years that I really want to get out there , and maybe do some presentations on .
So I do have a lot of irons in the fire .
It ’ s just my life has been very challenging the past few years , and it ’ s been very difficult to get things completed .
But now that I ’ ve sort of broken that impasse , I think that I ’ m ready to get a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I ’ m very excited about , and people have been asking about for a number of years .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 01:10:32 ] Well , we ’ re super excited to hear that , Chris , and it ’ s always great to connect with you and your work is so fantastically influential to so many people , so thanks for joining me and take care .
Chris Knowles : [ 01:10:44 ] It ’ s a great pleasure .
Thank you so much Alex .
Thank you to you and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
Chris Knowles : [ 01:10:53 ] I ’ ve been spending a lot of time outside exploring nature .
I ’ ve been spending a lot of time with my dog outside .
She ’ s sort of like an antenna .
She picks up all the [ unclear 01:11:03 ] .
And I ’ ve gotten a lot of things out of my head that I think we ’ re clouding my judgment and clouding my thinking .
And that ’ s one of the reasons why I ’ m just @ @ @ @ @ @ @ mean , I ’ m going even so far to tell people to stay away from tarot and astrology .
And not from some sort of bible bashing viewpoint but just like , if you think these things have power , if you ’ re not willing to devote your life to them , don ’ t play around with them .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 01:11:39 ] Why would you devote your life to them ?
Why do you think that ’ s the answer ?
To add more of that shit @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I think it just boils down to narcissism and ego , you know ?
“ I deserve more .
I deserve more than I ’ m getting.
” Alex Tsakiris : [ 01:11:56 ] When you get to the higher purpose and fully ascending , all that other stuff just looks silly , I think , you know , the demon .
Why ?
What are you doing ?
Chris Knowles : [ 01:12:05 ] I ’ ve never really understood the appeal of that stuff my entire life .
I spent a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a kid .
So my whole thinking was very much inspired by that .
Like the ocean is a power that you can not control and it ’ s just absolutely insane to think that you can .
So what you need to do is kind of act in concert with it , but always acknowledge that it holds all of the card , you know what I ’ m saying ?
And the ocean has always been kind of my metaphor for everything really , everything in the spiritual world that we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with powers that are much greater than yourself and it ’ s really delusional to think that you have anything to bargain for , unless , you know , these sickos who start getting into human sacrifice and so on .
Unless you ’ re sacrificing yourself it ’ s not really a sacrifice , right ?
Because sacrifice means giving up something that belongs to you , it doesn ’ t mean going out and kidnapping some poor Guatemalan kid off the street and cutting them up on some spirit cooking altar @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ] You have nothing to bargain with , except for yourself .
Ooh , that ’ s interesting .
Okay buddy .
Chris Knowles : [ 01:13:16 ] You have my permission , you know , anything that you can use , well , please do .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 01:13:22 ] Okay .
Take care , my friend , bye .
Chris Knowles : [ 01:13:24 ] Thank you very much .
Thanks again to Chris Knowles for joining me today on Skeptiko .
The one question I ’ d tee @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with good people who do evil things .
How are we to understand our super patriot elites who are for our good and for the good of the country , doing such evil things ?
Love to hear your thoughts on that .
I have many , so I ’ d love to get in a good dialogue with you about that one .
Come join me at the Skeptiko Forum , that ’ s , as I always tell people , I try and stay up to date on other comments that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ where I always go .
So if you do want to talk to me about any of this stuff , chat with me .
The Skeptiko Forum is the place to do it .
You can find it from the website , Skeptiko .
You can also find all of the previous shows that you can download for free .
I have a number of shows coming up .
As I mentioned in this episode , I am working on a book project as well , so I ’ ve got that and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ other projects I ’ m working on .
Stay with me for all of that .
Until next time , take care and bye for now .

Chris Knowles explores the dark side of deep state dabbling with extended consciousness.
photo by: Skeptiko
(movie clip)
Alex Tsakiris: [00:00:21] That’s Walt from Breaking Bad finally coming to grips with the fact that his discent into evil maybe wasn’t for the altruistic reasons he had told himself. It’s a topic we talk quite a bit about with today’s guest, the oh so excellent Chris Knowles.
To me, that speaks so much to these super patriot spooks and spies who want to tell us that they’re doing it all for us or for their country or for some other reason.
Chris Knowles: [00:00:57] It’s interesting you brought this up because this is something I’ve been thinking quite a bit about, and I think that the descent into evil, into evil thinking, it goes in steps, it’s sort of like an initiatory process, so to speak.
You’re dealing with powers that are much greater than yourself, and it’s really delusional to think that you have anything to bargain for.
If you could summon a creature that’s powerful enough to change your life or to curse somebody or whatever you think you want, what do you have to offer them?
Click here for Forum Discussion
Click Here for Chris Knowles’s website
Alex Tsakiris: [00:01:31] Welcome to Skeptiko where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics.
Today we’re joined by Chris Knowles. There’s no one quite like Chris through his super popular and influential blog, The Secret Sun, and his book, Our Gods Wear Spandex. A book which I think a lot of people would tell you has really forever changed the conversation about our occulted pop culture.
Well, throughout all of that Chris has really gained reputation as our anchorman for the esoteric. I know when I first talked to Chris a few years ago, I was genuinely both excited and a little intimidated to talk to him, and that doesn’t happen very often for me. But fortunately, he’s a super nice and approachable guy. He just happens to be from Massachusetts, which doesn’t really fit all that, but he does, so here he is. Chris, welcome back. Thanks for joining me.
Chris Knowles: [00:02:35] Oh, I’m so glad to be here, I really am.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:02:39] Well, you have a new book and a work of fiction, He Will Live Up in the Sky, and it certainly hits all of the Skeptiko buttons. Unacknowledged science could never be a conspiracy, conspiracies and the malevolent forces of the world beyond our world.
So let’s jump into it. Tell people about this book.
Chris Knowles: [00:03:05] Well, it’s a book that’s been five years in the making. It’s a book that I started quite a while ago, and there were a number of things that kind of prevented me from getting it done. But the lag was really helpful for me because it gave me a chance to really develop the ideas in it and change it quite a bit. It started off being a much different book than it is.
But I wanted to explore a lot of the ideas that I’ve been writing about on the blog with a little bit more free reign. You know, when you’re writing on a blog and you’re sort of trying to keep it towards things that you can document, things that you can prove, you’ve got to be a little bit more… I mean, I get pretty wild on the blog, but a lot of it’s done in humor. But you know, when you’re sort of approaching these topics, there’s a certain amount of circumspection that you need to cleave too. And what I wanted to do is I really wanted to explore these ideas without having to hold back without having to sensor myself or edit myself.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:03:58] Yeah, like you sensor yourself so much.
Chris Knowles: [00:04:02] And really sort of get down to it. But I really wanted to explore. I grew up in a very strange place, the corruption and the conspiracy were very close to the surface and it was something that we kind of almost took for granted. I’ll just give you one bullet point.
My hometown is now the location of the archdiocese of Boston, which you might’ve heard a thing or two about in the past 20 years, and their activities and their coverups and so on. And in fact, the local parish church, the priest was the brother of one of the principal players in that whole scandal.
And there were also all sorts of strange things that kind of gave me the feeling that there were some little deeper shenanigans afoot. Something that the blog readers will be familiar with. I’d gone to school with the woman who had carried out the massacre at the University of Alabama, Huntsville in the biology department, and a lot of the people she had shot were microbiologists, and of course Huntsville is next to Redstone Arsenal and next to the Marshall Space Center where all of the Paperclip guys went.
the, paper clip. Yeah. And strangely enough, I mean, one thing I alluded to in the book is that, you know, this area with I was in is where actually pay per click went down, where all the paper clip people were flown into and there was an Island off the coast of, Borrow of Quinsy called Walston, you know, when my family was living. And then when my father later moved, when my parents split up, and right off the coast of that is a long Island. And, there was Fort strong and that’s where all the peanut Munda guys were flown into. And that’s something that I hadn’t learned until fairly recently.
And I had actually done some digging into my, you know, my area and things like that, and just was stunned by just how close the . Deep state shenanigans and the corruption
Alex Tsakiris: [00:05:59] was, what about the shutter Island thing with that?
Chris Knowles: [00:06:02] Yeah. Yeah. Well, that’s what, this, this location that you’re referring to where fun.
Donna, Ken, and his people from PanAm Monza. Or flown into was actually the location with, I think maybe just the exterior is, but maybe not. for the film, the Leonardo DiCaprio film, shutter Island, which of course is very immersed in and K ultra-lore and paperclip and all that kind of stuff. So it was actually a very appropriate, setting.
And actually, on another Leonardo DiCaprio movie, the departed, a lot of the, scenes were filmed in the same town. And it sort of gives you a sense of, you know, what was going on in this area. If you’re not familiar with, with the Eastern Massachusetts, Boston in the seventies and eighties, it was basically run by two brothers, one of which was a, a, the president of the Senate.
His name was, William Bulger. And he was a very powerful figure, and the, his brother was a Whitey Bulger , you know, there’ve been some movies made about him. There’s a Johnny Depp movie made about him, but he was actually, I mean, this is really stunning to think about. He was actually a hardcore MKUltra test subject
Did not
Alex Tsakiris: [00:07:12] know that he was, I mean, he, he ran the Irish mob, but then he also had all these CIA connections and they later find out, you know, he was protected all along, but I didn’t know about the MKUltra thing,
Chris Knowles: [00:07:27] I think, I believe when he was imprisoned in San Francisco, it was, I don’t know if it was , Alcatraz , and he was basically locked in a cell for like a month and just given mega doses of LSD. And then he was sent home, sent back to Boston, South Boston, and became, you know, a major mod figure.
And you know, if you ask a lot of people who are in the area at the time, and we’re in the know, they were telling you that basically Boston was run by these two brothers. That above-board business was done by Billy and the underworld business was done by people. So this is something that was very cognizant of, and I’ll tell you something where I used to play basketball with my friends, a park two blocks away from my house.
It was right across the street from, where one of these hits were carried out. And they had dumped the body in the, in the dumpster. And, you know, we were playing basketball when that all that was going down, and I didn’t realize so many years later what was really going on is that they were.
Fishing out of body from a dumpster that, that why do you fold your head? Yeah, basically placed there right across the street from where we play basketball. So I mean, this is the kind of thing where, you know, it was really cognizant of, I mean, there was a, an open pedophile operating in my junior high school.
I mean, everybody knew about it. Everybody knew who is stable. Boys was, he had been doing it since the late fifties he wasn’t arrested until 1980. he was arrested off the coast of Florida on a 52-foot yacht. You know, this is a junior high school science teacher in the 1970s, I don’t think. Yeah, I’m, a lot of those guys could afford 52-foot yachts if you get my meaning.
And of course, I mean, there was this all sorts of, I couldn’t believe it when I was looking into, and I was like, you know, this was my. The air that I breathe. So I kind of wanted to explore some of these ideas and some of these events in a fictional setting, but I always wanted to write a book that was like super.
Entertaining, you know, a thrill ride. A lot of people, you know, I’m really gratified cause a lot of people who, commented on it, we reviewed it, have said that, you know, it is a thrill ride in the page turn. And that’s really what I wanted to create because you can go over this material and it kind of gets to be medicinal.
But I wanted to do so in a, in a context, in a setting that is very exciting and thrilling.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:09:41] tell us very briefly high-level fact versus fiction remote viewing and how that factors into he will live up in the sky.
Chris Knowles: [00:09:51] Well, one of the things that influenced this book in a, in a major way that I hadn’t met Russell Targ who started the.
A remote viewing program at Sri, and I had also met at may who had taken it over when, I guess sort of the government and CIA sort of stepped in and, and targeted and cleared off. I think we’re kind of, you know, back burn it a bit, but there was a real program, it started in the early seventies, at Stanford research Institute, and it was involved with, Unconventional intelligence gathering through remote viewing and remote viewing, I guess traditionally would be considered astral projection. you know, those are sort of a lot of people thinking that it’s psychic or. But I think,
Alex Tsakiris: [00:10:41] well, it is all those things. , because anyone who listens to this show knows all about the remote viewing thing.
And I’ve interviewed ed may and what a jerk. I mean, really, you know, there he is. He’s doing this. Totally extended consciousness stuff and he’s trying to jam it back into this materialist perspective. He’s descended on and Hayton on Dean Radin, who’s probably done more real scientific, bring it into the lab, kind of work on this stuff than anyone else.
He denies even his own participants. Joe McMonagle, who comes on my show again and interviews and says, yeah, it’s all about near death experience, and I knew that I had a near death experience. They know all these extended consciousness realms are linked. And here’s ed may, who ran the program for 10 years and comes out and says, Nope, Nope.
None of that. None of that. I mean, I don’t know if there’s a level of deception there, which there is on all this stuff, but there’s also just this level of, cluelessness that just is hard to sort through. And I think we could have a deep conversation about . Russell target also, who is kind of the white Knight to help put off who is this Navy intelligence guy from the beginning and is also showing up in the Scientology stuff and is showing up, you know, now on stage with, with the tic tech guys and the, to the stars Academy and Tom DeLonge and all that stuff.
So, I mean, the, the beat keeps going on and on, but really T this is. Well, the angle that you are taking, it seems to me in this book, that’s what I wanted to really pin down is are these guys good guys, bad guys, and are you, or what are you hinting at in terms of how we should understand how this remote viewing program, which is really a child of the MKUltra program, how it should fit in our overall worldview.
Chris Knowles: [00:12:38] Well, let me just get back to ed may because I had had some conversations with that nice private conversations and I had sat in a private discussion presentation where ed may basically went through the data and he told a much different story than I think he told you. so maybe it’s a public private thing.
I’m not exactly sure. I can’t speak for red, but I’m actually surprised to hear that because.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:13:03] He just parses things in a very kind of way that I’ve heard a million times from these guys. It’s, you know, carefully crafted speech. What I, when I talked to him, he really got pissed off.
cause I just called him on his bullshit. I mean, about Joe McMonagle who I had on the show and Joe says, yeah, I had an NDE. Here’s Joe McMonagle secrets by number zero zero one. It says , I was a spy on the East German West German border. I’m poisoned in a restaurant in West Germany on the water, and I die on the way to the door from poisoning.
I immediately leave my body, have a near death experience, see them driving me, the hospital, all this. When I wake up, the guys that are there to debrief me. Say, where are what, what’s going on? He says, I just had an NDE. Few years later, he shows up at Stanford research Institute and his, you know, sealed super-secret file opens up and they pull out Raymond booties book about near death experience.
And they say, essentially, this is why you’re here because we understand there’s a connection. Ed may completely denies that. He says, I know Joe McMonagle. There’s no connection in our program between near death experience and remote viewing. I don’t think he’s shading that. I don’t think he’s making it up.
I think he’s just. I don’t know. I mean, that’s like one of the deeper dive questions that I have for you is how do we resolve these differences? The differences between ed, may Russell Targ a hell put off because it’s one thing to say, Oh, it’s all woven together into this grand conspiracy, but I don’t think it is.
I think it’s just a bunch of different people who are looking at the elephant from different angles.
Chris Knowles: [00:14:46] No, I think that’s exactly right. But you also have to consider that these are guys who are involved in. Intelligence work for most of their careers and had to sign all sorts of oats. And, and you know, nondisclosure agreements.
They aren’t necessarily free to discuss a lot of the details and the ins and outs of what they were involved with. like I said, I mean, ed mace told you a much different story than, than I had heard him say in private. So I can’t really speak for add, and I don’t know exactly what he’s getting at. But.
I mean, I was going to tell you, I was a remote viewing skeptic. I really was until I met, you know, people like Russell Targ and Dean Radin and it may, and had a chance to talk to them privately and listen to these presentations that they gave privately. So I think that, You know, it’s very hard to say, people are very guarded about this material.
I mean, we’re talking about intelligence gathering for a number of years. I mean, you, you know, you allude to the Scientology issue. I, it was pretty well known that pretty much everybody involved in the remote viewing program was a Scientologist. I don’t know if there was somebody, evangelizing Scientology.
To them, but you know, that’s pretty well known. And later on, when it sort of became under the auspices of the more of the military than the intelligence community, you had what were called the witches, which were these women who, you know, were said to be very effective, remote viewers. But we’re seen as almost sinister figures by, you know, other people in the military.
And it was, they were seen as almost like seductive And, and had very much an unsavory reputation, but they were doing excellent intelligence gathering. So again, it’s very hard to say you have to take everything with a grain of salt that you hear and you just have to sort of take things in aggregate, you know, what is the gestalt of this?
What is this sort of the some impression that you get and proceed from there. But like I said, I was very much remote viewing skeptic because my experience with Royal viewing was coast to coast. And. At Dames, and you know these people in the whole Hale bop thing, you know, you remember all that stuff back in the 90s I just thought, well, this is just kind of like a sigh op or a hoax or just information thing.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:17:05] We could launch off into another topic here, and I think we will, because it’s a super interesting one to me, and that’s that you kind of touch on the role that the quote unquote skeptics. And I think for the most part, the skeptical thing is over.
You know, it’s the James Randi thing is over in with it. And I went the whole thing. James. Randy, such an interesting character, I don’t know if you knew this, but James, Randy, who was famous for making all these just outrageous claims about himself. You know, highest IQ ever recorded, you know, had a special pass to the library.
All this just ridiculous stuff. But the other thing, tying back to, and I forget where it was, but it was somewhere in new England, he claims he was a. A gay man, which he reveals much later in his life, but early on he was involved with these prank sexual phone calls with these teenagers, and this came out in a court document and
Claimed that the police department had asked him to try and ensnare these kids. He’s like 14-year-old kids to get them to do sex talk on the phone. This to me sounds like an, I know you from your experience. This is then a compromised individual, so however we’re supposed to understand, we understand that he has somehow.
An agent, a compromise thing, but then you take the skeptical thing as it relates to remote viewing. A lot different, but other things, the way that , I’m trying to tie this back to the Stanford research Institute. If you go back, and we did it on this show, the Sri put out a video with URI Geller and the tests that they had done in their lab of the psychic abilities of URI Geller, and I also had jock valet on this show confirming that.
No shock place, not a dummy. you know, super successful venture capitalist and just genius computer scientist. This is kind of guy. He said, yeah, I, I, he, he didn’t, there was no full Raya. I, he demonstrated a real ability and he says on the show how he did it, but also in these videos that Stanford research Institute.
Published and there are no dummies. I mean, Russell Targ and how put off are top notch scientists. I mean like laser physics scientists at a degree that I don’t understand, but I understand it enough to know they’re really competent. These tests are not hard to do in terms of testing that URI Geller had.
These ESP abilities as he claimed and was able to draw things that were hidden and these other things, those are out there, those are published. You can still find them on the web. So I’m surprised that you were quote unquote skeptical of the remote viewing thing. I thought since the 70s they had pretty much proven it and the skeptical thing, to me, it was always.
As you explore in this book, kind of the, I don’t know what kind of operation that is, but it was a, some kind of Cy optic kind of smear or something that, you know, but I’ll say one more thing and I’ll shut up cause I want to hear you. But in the, in the 70s or in the 80s you had Ted Koppel. Who was our source for nightly, you know, late time news, doing a full expo, say on remote viewing, right?
And saying their Stargate were spying against the Russians. This is real. And he has total credibility to it. And then for some reason they did a switch on that and then it became James, Randy, Oh, this is probably all just fake. URI Geller fakes his stuff on TV and all that. So I don’t know who changed the narrative on that, but that’s the part I can’t really understand
Chris Knowles: [00:20:41] about it.
Well, if you look at who is involved in say, psyop in the early days, I mean, they had all kinds of connections to the CIA, to military intelligence, to MK ultra. I mean, up and down the line, if you really dig into the histories of these people, you have a pretty unsavory kind of group. Andrew , who, you know, I’m not exactly sure is an entirely credible source, but he had said that, Randy was basically, working for the DOD, that he was basically a dissemination agent for the department of defense.
I’d actually heard those tapes that you talked about, the ones that Randy, had taken part in. And I, you know, I’m familiar. I read the, the court case where he, it’s shockingly lied and you know, this whole story that he concocted about the police department and so on.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:21:34] Where was the, where was that?
What city was it
Chris Knowles: [00:21:36] in? I don’t even remember, but it was
Alex Tsakiris: [00:21:39] out. It isn’t, Massachusetts wasn’t
Chris Knowles: [00:21:40] in there someplace. It might’ve been. I, I don’t recall. But it was absurd. It was ridiculous. And even the judges, the judge, like admonished him and just said, this story is not credible. This is just, you know, you’re just talking nonsense in my courtroom.
So I, yeah, I think it’s clear that Randy was compromised and Randy was sort of, he was following the UFO. He was in those kinds of circles, you know, the late. Sort of the tail end of the long John Nebel show and that whole period, you know, he was hanging around with the people who were involved, like Mosley sauce or smear, I mean, all these kinds of things.
So he was just a very strange guy and, you know, but he was also somebody who had sort of worshiped at the feet of Houdini and kind of wanted to walk in his footsteps and so on. Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s clear that, that Randy, what was somehow compromised. but
Alex Tsakiris: [00:22:34] you draw, you draw these links with like bill Nye the science guy and Richard Dawkins and all these other strange things that you tie into.
I don’t remember what was on the blog,
Chris Knowles: [00:22:46] where I’ve done a lot of that on the blog. Sure. I mean, bill Nye is. I, I mean, I think the man’s a fraud. I mean, he himself as a scientist, and he has no degrees in science. I mean, he has a degree in engineering. but he has all sorts of connections to the military and that whole world.
And like I said, if you start doing some digging with these people, you find that they do. But you’re right, it’s over. It’s not even worth it. Even discussing at this point, because it was clearly just a kind of a CYOP or operation or something to our campaign. You just kind of turn things around and, and, you know, change the tone of the conversation.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:23:26] bring it back then to the 1995 Ted Koppel is out there saying, . During the expo, say on remote viewing, we don’t know whether it’s a real ass expo Zay like anything in the media, but it seemed to be somewhat real that like they didn’t necessarily want that to come out and it’s very just kind of straight up what the program was.
Then why would they then pull it back? Because. You know, Lance, my Kia just did a movie. I don’t know if you’ve seen it or talked to him about third ice buys where they do this kind of world tour or with Russell Targ and he goes around. And so the first question, you know, I have her first got to have her Lance’s, you mean to tell me the CIA for the vanity of this nice old guy released 60,000 previously classified documents.
I just don’t think that’s the way things go. I think it’s more likely that there were trying to, once again change the story or change the narrative. So it went from Ted Koppel releasing it to early Geller and, James, Randy, you know, just this rise of this skeptical, Oh, don’t listen to any of that stuff.
And Ray Hyman, you know, the official CIA. academic. Now it’s like, Oh no, we can talk about this stuff again. And Oh, it’s all released. It’s all real. What do you make of that transition?
Chris Knowles: [00:24:51] I think it just modus operandi, , it’s, it’s muddying the waters. It’s, , sowing confusion and doubt a claim. Counterclaim. Acknowledgement, denial, , this is something that you see over and over again. We’re seeing what this whole, you know, you alluded to the tick tack thing. I mean, we’re seeing the same exact process take place with that.
So, I mean, this is just the way things operate. You know, you have to really learn to sort of, again, see things in aggregate and read between the lines. You have to sort of see where, The lies are and where the truth is, and it can be very difficult. You know, it can be very difficult to parse, ,
Alex Tsakiris: [00:25:29] how do you handle that in, in the book, Chris, he will live up in the sky. It really revolves around a related kind of storyline of. Extraordinary abilities and people involved in and around the program and that will, what was it that interested you in that?
Chris Knowles: [00:25:47] What interested me is that there was a big blow up in the early nineties about the remote viewing campaign, which I guess at that point was under the Stargate ages and Congress shut it down. Congress had defunded it. But there were a lot of, the work was being privatized, people, you know, ed Dames, who had been very deeply involved in the, in the Army’s program, and a number of his people started sort of selling their services to the highest bidder.
And I wanted to look at the, the process where, and this is an ongoing process that, Oh. Folds in more, more activities then remote viewing or whatever is just how things that were under the ages of the government, things that you could access through freedom of information and so on and so forth. We, there was some sort of accountability with where increasingly privatized in the 1990s where they could be locked away forever.
they could be. Made totally inaccessible as corporate secrets. They could be made totally inaccessible. Just because it’s a private entity that has, that has no responsibility. The freedom event information act, and I wanted, that was sort of my starting point. I wanted to suppose or pause it, a situation where somebody who had been very deeply involved in a government program.
Then retired and creative, basically a cutout funded by the DOD to continue the work without accountability and sort of do so, you know, in a more bare-knuckled fashion than I think you would see in the, the official programs. And again, I, I have no access to this inflammation. It’s, it’s, it’s conjecture on my part, but we do have examples of when.
Activities taking place within the military or intelligence are privatized and we just get little glimmers. We’ll see. You know, how the abuses that come out of that. And that’s something that I really wanted to explore and I wanted to explore the mentality of the people who would devote their lives to these kinds of activities.
And again, it’s something where I don’t have access to the, to the private information, I don’t have access to. Papers and things that are all locked away under corporate privilege.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:28:21] I’ve been re-watching Breaking Bad. I want to play a clip for you, which I think is the Quint essential clip from the whole series.
And I think speaks directly to me to this question about the underlying psychologists. Let me play this clip and then I want to get some thoughts from you on it. This is Walt near the very, and of his run, talking to Skylar in their kitchen. So this is a way inside baseball. If you don’t know breaking bad, you won’t get it.
But if you do, might be interesting. Let me play it for you.
All the things that I did.
Chris Knowles: [00:29:03] You need to understand.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:29:05] I have
Chris Knowles: [00:29:05] to hear one more time
Alex Tsakiris: [00:29:10] that you did this
Chris Knowles: [00:29:11] for the family. I did it for me.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:29:21] I liked it.
Chris Knowles: [00:29:26] Mine was good at it.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:29:33] I was alive. Wow. To me, that speaks so much to these super Patriot spooks and spies who want to tell us that they’re doing it all for us or for their country or for some other reason. W. w. D what do you think
Chris Knowles: [00:29:53] about that? I think that a lot of these people can become so delusional that they identify their own personal motivations with the, the good of the country.
And that’s another thing that I explore and try and have dialogues within the story about. Different characters explaining the motivations and, and that’s something, I mean, it’s, it’s based on things that I’ve read and things that I’ve seen. I, I wanted to explore that. Like what motivates these people?
What drives them to do these things? You know, you’re not going to get glory and very often you’re not going to get rich, you, you have a sort of fanatic mentality at work here that I think. It can be very destabilizing, particularly as technology progresses and with things like remote viewing. I think one of the reasons why there might be so much confusion sown about it is because if it’s operant.
It’s a pretty dangerous technology that you have no defense against. You can defend against, you know, drones, and you can defend against listening devices and you can do defend against spies. I mean, how are you going to defend against somebody who leaves their body and can travel to your underground base that’s a mile under, you know, bedrock
Look around as, as we’ve seen reports on, you know, how do you do that? There’s no defense against it. So I think that’s one of the reasons why this topic became so sensitive, you know? And one of the things I just winding the clock back a bit to Randy. When did he go after Geller? He went after Geller at a very specific point in time.
He wouldn’t have to go after Andrew porridge published his book, which is basically a very weird. religious texts about the nine, you know, the council of nine. And how, Oh, how rich had credited Geller is a . Power is, or you know, beliefs or abilities, however you choose to to coach it.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:32:01] But he to, we would have to back up and maybe you can do a quick sketch of a Padre itch, who we’ve talked about a lot on this show and have interviewed the guy who’s doing the biography on him and has the
Permission and help of his son. But you know, he’s at, he’s at a PhD at Northwestern university, which was an MKUltra hub. And you could just imagine these super smart guys get these super important academic positions. At least they think. And then someone pulls the rug out from a meeting and says, Hey, by the way, you’re working for.
You’re working for Sydney, godly been the reboot of the Nazi program of mind control, and it’s all under this, and then he does the whole entheogens thing, the fake, you know, we’re going to discover that, but it’s real. I mean, there, there’s, and then the nines thing is totally out there, but are you suggesting that that was, there was like this counter disinformation at the same time because Padre just clearly working for the.
Left-hand path, CIA folks. Are you suggesting that different factions? I mean, what are, what are we talking about here?
Chris Knowles: [00:33:04] I think, I think Andrea basically spilled the beans, and exposed a strain of thinking within his, Neil, you that they did not want to get out. I, I think that he, well, first of all, he so clearly.
Become, as they say, high on his own supply. I mean, I think the man had been damaged his brain through excessive ingestion of mushrooms and so on, but he had been on the mushroom thing since the late fifties and you know, he, his involvement with the nine, he claims that it dates back to 1952 at these experiments in a, in a house in Glen Cove, Maine.
Just a very remote location up the coast. So I think that they didn’t want that information getting out and they didn’t, I don’t think that they wanted sort of a religion equate is I religion to revolve around Geller, which was kind of happening. I mean, he is a very charismatic man, very intelligent, very well spoken.
And I think there was a fear that his. Charisma would lead to a cult. And they did not want that. And they also did not want talking about the nine.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:34:24] What about the fact, and again, we’re, we’re way past, this is total inside baseball here, folks. I apologize, but if it’s anything you pick out of this, then you’re deep in the rabbit hole with Chris Nye.
What about Padre drayage connection to the massage, right? Cause he goes and gets yeller from the Mossad. So Geller is in Israel and we laid, found Fridays. Always been connected to Israeli intelligence, and he brings
Chris Knowles: [00:34:46] over as an agent. Keller was, Keller was a massage agent and which was it? CIA handler.
It’s so
Alex Tsakiris: [00:34:53] correct, but and so correct me if I’m wrong, filling any of the gaps, but at this point . is also connected to Sri. He knows that this program is going on and they say, Hey, you know, we’ve got this Ingo Swan guy find us other, you know, he goes, Oh, you know, here’s another guy over here. Let’s bring him into the mix.
So at this point, I kind of see it as this, it’s not like a super, they don’t know how all the cards are going to fall. So they’re just kind of trying to. Pull in all these resources and then it just gets stranger and stranger. I mean, what can you add to that or correct on that,
Chris Knowles: [00:35:28] I think, I think you’re right, but I think a lot, they were just running with the ball and I don’t think they had a tremendous amount of oversight, and they were producing some actionable intelligence, which gave them, you know, the ability.
Just sort of act on their own. did, if you’ve read the, the work of, Of John Ronson or seeing the movie, the men who stare at goats, he sort of kind of goes into this with the, what was it called? The new earth army that, you know, that program that was, or the first earth army, so I forget the exact name.
It’s
Alex Tsakiris: [00:36:05] direct links to the Nazi program, right? This is exactly what the Nazis documented that they were doing with their super soldier. You throw Nazi in and everyone. Freaks out. But no, I mean, it’s all documented. They were doing the super soldier thing, so, but go ahead.
Chris Knowles: [00:36:20] Well, a lot of it was, was, you know, this whole idea that jet I and psychic powers of soldiers creating, you know, a more effective peaceable warriors, they said.
So I think there were a lot of things going on. And with Geller’s popularity, I mean, gala was a nightclub performer and it charisma, they did not want. Is bleeding out. They did not want the ball unraveling. I don’t remember exactly when the remote viewing program became public, but it hadn’t really become widespread known until then, the 90s with the whole controversy about Stargate and the Congress shutting the programs down.
And you know, the religious right was involved in this. And it’s, it’s very interesting to see how often the religious right and the skeptical community, join forces or work in tandem.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:37:10] So tell you what, when you talk to the insiders on the remote viewing program, which is another angle, you know, we had a conversation, maybe it’s a couple of years ago at this point, which was just extraordinary and you opened my eyes to so many things.
But one of the things we talked about was this kind of bracketed reality where these things make sense. They’re internally coherent at different levels, but when you step back, that’s just complete craziness. The Catholic church is like the example we talked about before. Well, I think this is kind of an example as well.
the political forces at play in the remote viewing program from everyone you talk to inside that program was very real. You had very real Christian believing senators, congressmen oversight viewers, as well as insiders who just had a Christian. Belief that this stuff was wrong and they didn’t, they weren’t interested in exploring it in any kind of esoteric occultic kind of way.
It’s just like, it’s against the bottle, it’s Satan, it’s all wrong. And that they had a real force in kind submarining this program. And then you had a whole other group of people that were like, Jesus Christ. If we run our government based on these wacky Christians in their crazy dogma, we’ll never get anything done.
So they have this kind of. Continuity of government thing, and they’re saying, you know, just don’t tell him. Don’t tell him. Like, we don’t tell him the UFO program. We don’t tell them all the rest of this stuff.
This is just another thing. We’ll just go underground. And actually the ultimate insider kit green, that’s what he says is happened to the remote viewing program, which you alluded to too. It’s like, yeah, just. Had to take it off the table kind of thing. So there’s a lot to unpack there, but I don’t know that I agree that these groups are necessarily in cahoots.
I mean, I think a lot of the Christians that were opposing the remote viewing program or just straight on,
Chris Knowles: [00:38:58] well, I, they’re working in tandem and there’s no, there’s no question about that. I mean, there are documents and, and new stories that you can look up where. They were working hand in hand or against which they thought, which they saw as a mutual threat.
So, I mean, there is a history on that. That’s, that’s fairly well known.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:39:15] , what is the history on that as you know it?
Chris Knowles: [00:39:19] So , you had alluded to the, the Christian conservatives that were.
Railing against the program, you know, particularly in Congress, but also in the Pentagon. Right. But at the same time, you had people from sidecar doing audits of the program do
Alex Tsakiris: [00:39:35] of work in those folks.
Chris Knowles: [00:39:36] Yeah. And, and basically saying, you know, this was, this is a waste of money and this was nonsense, and so on and so forth.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:39:45] But do you think they were knowingly working together or that someone was kind of managing that at a higher level and saying, Oh, these are all working, both these forces are working towards our interest of derailing this
Chris Knowles: [00:39:55] thing. Well, there was kind of a detente between the two groups. you know, Stephen Jay Gould, who was one of the major movers and shakers in the skeptical movement in the seventies and eighties.
You know, it basically said that, religion and science were non overlapping that just Steria and they both sort of had a common interest in fighting what they saw as a rationality, new new ageism, you know, which had been very popular in the, and you know. Military in intelligence circles, particularly in on the California, the Bay area.
You know, it’s fascinating to see how you follow GG and remote viewing and hi technology, the internet and all these kinds of things grew out of the same kettle. You know, they all sort of grew from the same exact soil, the same plot. So I think there was a tremendous amount of concern about that that.
Who is driving this material? Who is going to be at the helm, is it going to be, you know, these kind of wackos like Puthoff and Targ and Jacques Vallée and so on and so forth. You know, who they would see as wackos. There were these strange beliefs and Scientologists and Rosa Cruz and so on. Or is it going to be people who are more sober-minded and rational, quote unquote.
So I think that there was a tremendous interest. Mutual interests in both these groups that you would think of being, is it as opposite in, in fighting the same enemy? But if you, if you dig below the surface, you start to realize that both of them, we’re, you know, there were like two hands at the same puppet.
You know, they, they were both answering to the same. Offices, same officers in, in the military and intelligence communities. I mean, that’s, that’s pretty well documented. And this is not, you know, conjecture or supposition on my part that, you know, again, we see all the people involved in psyop and similar groups in similar movements.
Having all kinds of military and intelligence connections. And we also see the same thing with, you know, the Christian conservative movement is, a well-known CIA agent, whose name escapes me at the moment. But he had said that he had basically created. the modern evangelical movement with, these Christian groups on college campuses that he was using, sort of to counteract the influence of like the antiwar movement and the hippies and so on.
And, you know, that again is pretty well documented. I mean, going back to the forties, it’s very well documented that, Billy Graham was very close with Alan Dallas had very good, close connections, close friendship with him and, and that brought in, you know, people. In the Rockefeller orbit and so on.
So it all kind of grows out of the same pot, so to speak. And again, when, one of the things that I really wanted to explore in the book is that if you take, if you had taken the work out of the public sphere, you know, off the public kitty, so to speak, and done. So under ostensibly private group, you would have a lot more leeway to do whatever you wanted.
and, and you would have very little oversight and you would be unaccountable to the public about it. And that’s something, again, that is not, I mean, I was placing it in, in this fictional context with, with remote viewing and so on. But we see this all the time. I mean, this has become pandemic, you know, with the use of private corporations running.
Military operations, you know, these military contractors, DynCorp, XE, all these kinds of groups. So I wanted, I wanted to explore like how would, how would something as ostensibly esoteric and fringe as remote viewing operate in the same context that private military contractors would operate in.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:43:47] I can’t get too worked up about that because whenever I look back in history, I don’t find a time when we were more free, where information… whether we had access to the freedom of information act or not, great, but there was a level of awareness among the general population. We didn’t have this web of knowledge that we now have, that really supports all of us, that we can stand on and say things in a factual way. So I think it’s kind of a balancing act. Yeah, they were more open and the Freedom of Information Cct, but that’s because people knew hell of a lot less.
I’ll tell you what, we are pressed for time here, but there’s a couple of things I really want to hit on, which I think will lie beneath a lot of these topics we’re talking about. I want to talk about evil. I’m actually writing a book on why evil matters. It’s kind of like, you know, the first book I wrote, the premise of it was, if science gets consciousness wrong, then it really can’t get anything right. And the premise of the second book is, if you’re not willing to look at evil, which you’ve looked at a lot, and particularly the kind of malevolent forces that transcends space and time, if you will. I use extended consciousness sometimes, but a lot of people don’t like that term. But if you’re not willing to go there with evil, then you’re really not talking about anything.
So, what do you think about the evil question, particularly as it relates to the book and how you kind of get to what’s really behind all of this?
Chris Knowles: [00:45:28] Yeah. It’s interesting you brought this up because this is something I’ve been thinking quite a bit about, and I think that the descent into evil, into evil thinking, it goes in steps. It’s sort of like an initiatory process, so to speak. I don’t think people, except for like some weirdos who are into Satanism or whatever, nobody sets out thinking, “I’m going to be evil.” I think that the seduction of evil is, “I am going to be better than you and I am going to solve the problems that you cannot solve. I’m going to solve the problems of the world,” and that old Stalin phrase, “If you have to crack a few eggs to make this beautiful omelet so be it.” I think that the ends justify the means is kind of the gateway, that’s the doorway to evil, to evil acts, to evil intentions.
But I think that the process of descending into that kind of thinking, there’s another cliché, “The road to hell is paved with good intentions,” and that’s something, again, that I really wanted to explore. I wanted to explore how would people that would descend into what we would see as like the ultimate evil, how would they justify themselves? And this is something I’ve thought a lot about for many years because I think about, like comic book supervillains, Lex Luthor and Dr Doom and so on. They always see themselves, not only as above the rest of us, but they always see themselves as the good guy. I think the worst villains are the ones who see themselves as the good guy.
William B. Davis who played the Smoking Man and the X-Files, it always said that he was the hero of the story, that Mulder was, you know, this troublemaker and this villain, that he was the one who was rational and considered and thought out his plans and did so in a way that he could justify. And I think that, again, that the worst evil is done by those who can justify, somehow it’s a kind of mirror imaging that we see so often.
One of the things that I find so troubling is the way this is kind of being presented in the public, where Satanists now, where they’re not these weirdos, many of whom have extremely unwholesome sexual appetites, they’re the heroes of free speech and constitutional rights. I mean, that’s how it’s couched now. And you’ll have girl’s magazines aimed at tweens and young girls, how to summon a demon. It’s like, I’m sorry, what?
Alex Tsakiris: [00:48:08] Why are you laughing about that?
Chris Knowles: [00:48:09] I’m laughing at the absurdity of it is what I’m laughing at.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:48:12] Well, what is the absurdity of it? Because I think you’re open to the possibility, I know from your writing, and I think you’re also cautious. You tell a cautionary tale of people who take the leap and dabble in occultism and magic rituals and stuff like that. And you’re not doing it from like this heavy-duty Christian Bible way, you’re just saying, “Hey, my life experience tells me that a lot of people get into stuff that they didn’t anticipate.” Well, all of that presupposes that there’s a certain reality to it. Because as much as you’re talking about the hip, kind of cultural tweener, kind of pop culture thing, the part that gives me pause is people who are connecting with these extended consciousness realms in order to seek power and to seek personal gain. And we have that recorded throughout history, and you’ve recorded it in your books and on your blog.
So don’t we need to address or at least throw that on the table? To what extent can you use spirit forces to improve your life? That’s the claim being made. Is there any truth to it?
Chris Knowles: [00:49:23] Well, this is something that I’ve written about quite a bit, particularly in the past couple years. My basic advice is just stay away from it. You know, stay away from… If you think you can summon a demon and control it, first of all, there are two possibilities. One is that it’s just absolute fantasy on your part, absolute delusion. Second of all, there is this reality, there is a reality to summoning these energies and these forces, whether it’s psychological or paraphysical.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:49:53] I’ve got to pin your down there. Is it all psychological or is it paraphysical?
Chris Knowles: [00:49:58] Well, I believe it’s paraphysical.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:49:59] I do too.
Chris Knowles: [00:50:00] But the point being is that if you could summon a creature that’s powerful enough to change your life or to curse somebody or whatever you think you want, what do you have to offer them? What could you possibly give to them if it’s some disembodied spirit that is immortal or eternal or what have you? What do you have to offer them? You have nothing to offer them.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:50:26] Chris, that is what’s being sold in the magic community. They’re saying, “Well, if you just do this grimoire properly, with the sharpened sword at this angle, drawn in this way.” What a mind fuck to tell people, “Then you will…” And they will say this. I forget this professor’s name, he’s been on The Greg Show and a bunch of… You know, “You will then command. The demon will then be compelled to…” How are you going to compel that kind of force? It seems such a shill deal that people fall for. I don’t get how people can be so naive.
Chris Knowles: [00:51:06] People are so naive because they don’t have an experience, they don’t have real life experience. You’re talking a lot of people, a cohort of people who are incredibly privileged. Who grew up an era of wealth and privilege, absolutely unparalleled in human history, a sheltered existence, and also they were programmed by the media, they were programmed by a lot of these shows on television, kid’s television, that taught them that they could do these things. I’ve really come to the point in my life where I’m just like, don’t mess around with any of it. It’s interesting to study, it’s interesting to watch from a distance, but I’ve got to tell, I’m really at a point right now and I’ve said this on a number of interviews and podcasts over the past several years, don’t do it.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:51:56] Can we really say don’t do it? Because when we say don’t do it, it also feels a little bit churchy, mind of God thing. Like I understand the nature or the order of the extended consciousness realm. I understand the mind of God and therefore don’t do it. You know what I mean?
Chris Knowles: [00:52:15] I don’t even need to go that far. I mean, I would tell them to just do a little research. I mean, read Colin Wilson’s book The Occult, and he sort of very interestingly details how many of these stories of great magicians in history end very, very badly.
There’s another book that I read a number of years ago that had a tremendous influence on me and I’ve talked about also in a number of different interviews, is a book by a gentleman named [unclear 00:52:39], who was one of these pop… parapsychologist I guess is a better word. He was one of these figures that there were a lot of in the 20s and 30s who were very theatrical, almost like stage magicians, but incorporate a lot of occultism. But he wrote a book about magicians and sorcerers and so on throughout history, and it’s one of the grimmest damn things you’ve ever read. Because every single story, every single chapter ends badly. You name it, you name these great figures.
Of course, we’ve seen how Crowley ended up, how Jack Parsons ended up. Kenneth Anger seems to be hanging in there but I’ve spoken to the man and I’ve dealt with his people, he’s had some unbelievably hard times that none of us would inspire to duplicate.
So I don’t think you need to appeal to biblical authority, you just need to look at how people who have pursued these courses of action, how their story ended. And I cannot off the top of my head think of a single story that did not end badly, outside of people who are involved in the arts who were basically writers and musicians and so on and they sort of incorporated these occult ideas into their work. But otherwise it just ends badly, it really does. You don’t need to look very far.
Anton LeVay was a miserable husk of a man for the last 15, 20 years of his life. I have a friend who lived in San Francisco that lived two doors down from him on California Street, and he’s a guy who’s actually a skeptical, rational atheist. But he said every time I went by that house you just kind of felt this void, this out, and he said that he’s a guy who’s actually, you know, typical rational atheist, but he said, every time you went by that house, you just kind of felt this void, this gnawing vacuum. And they eventually tore the house down. It had been painted black, it hadn’t been kept up, the yard and the siding and so on was in disrepair.
I think that it’s just, don’t do it, don’t mess around with it. If you think you can control a force that has the power to curse somebody, again, what do you have to offer them? You don’t have anything to offer them.
And in the case of, say like the Curse Trump people, I mean, do you really think that Trump doesn’t have people in his employ?
Alex Tsakiris: [00:55:05] I think it’s more like we were saying before and I think discerning this kind of is important because we get the message, you know, what do you think about the curse against Trump? What do you think about dah, dah, dah? No, that’s not the point. The point is why do you think you can marshal these forces for your gain? And why are you seeking gain anyway, why are you getting into this materialist backdoor spiritual materialism thing that you need to gain? You are going to die. There is a moral imperative. There is right and wrong. You will judge yourself, in terms of how well you did in standing up to that moral imperative. How is any of that going to help you in the big picture? It isn’t.
Chris Knowles: [00:55:45] I’ve written several posts saying exactly that. Not in as many words, but you know, basically that same message and again, it’s something that I’ve seen, it’s something that I’ve read about. It’s something that you can all see and read about. It just doesn’t lead to a good place. And it troubles me how it’s being marketed. It’s being marketed as cute and rebellious and fun and so on and so forth. And tie in with all of the other things that are going on, particularly with kids, the influences that are just assaulting children on a daily basis, it’ very troubling to me.
But again, evil does not start off as evil. Evil starts off, it sells itself as good, “No they’re evil. You don’t understand, we’re the good guys, we’ve just gotten a bad rap because they write the history, but they’re the bad guys,” so on and so forth.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:56:38] Well, you know, there’s another part of this, and I really wanted to get on and talk about the ET stuff before you go and see if we can help your cat, which is sad to think about, but hey, we’re talking about sad stuff anyway.
Are you familiar with the whole Sabbatean Frankist death cult?
Chris Knowles: [00:56:57] Yeah, there’ a guy by the name of Barry Chamish who is also a ufologist who has done a lot of work on that topic.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:57:05] Because in a way that does help explain it, in that if you take this desire that some people have to seek a power by any means, and an evil somehow pushes their misconfigured, spiritual and energy forces, which I think is kind of maybe closer to what’s maybe happening. And then they extend that to the extended realm and say, “Oh wow, there’ an extended realm that will also push the buttons in me that somehow make me feel less miserable and less lost and let’s just go with that, even though I’m destroying other people’s lives.”
Well, double-down with that and get some crazy cult that reads the bible and says, “You know, it says right there in the bible that the only way that the messiah will come is when everyone’s good or when everyone’s bad, and we know we’re never going to get to everyone being good, so let’s see if we can get everyone bad.”
And this is a theme that doesn’t jut play out with the Sabbatean Frankists, I mean, we can see it through history, but it’s all part of this deception, part of this opposite day kind of mentality, that I can lie, I can deceive, I can infiltrate, I can do whatever because I am serving, as you’ve alluded to before, this higher purpose now and this higher purpose is to bring about evil and destruction in order to bring about the good.
So it’s just another way to tweak the craziness that gets into the cultish kind of mentality. I don’t know if you want to touch on that at all, but it does seem to pop up a lot.
Chris Knowles: [00:58:47] Well, again, if people read my wonderful new thriller, He Will Live Up in the Sky, that conversation is directly addressed. That way of thinking is directly addressed. There was a conversation between two of the main characters with those exact ideas that you brought up, being addressed and explored.
And again, like I said, I wanted to be able to take this into a fictional context so I could explore them without holding back, without limiting myself, without censoring myself, and that’s really what the whole book is based on. That’s what the idea of the premise of the book is, is that I wanted to take all of the things that I’ve been writing on for the past, gosh, 13 years now, 14 years, and put them in a context where people who we speculate upon, the existence who we speculate upon, people who we see in certain positions and wonder what they’re motivations are, that we could get inside their heads, at least how I saw it from my experience and my readings and so on.
In that sense, the book was successful for me personally, because I wanted to understand what motivates people who would be driven to such extremes, to be doing such extremes, to be doing such extremes of philosophy and action that would impact us all in in very profound and terrible ways. And, I couldn’t really do that if I was writing in a nonfiction setting without sort of sounding like a crank or some sort of, what they call a tinfoil hat kind of guy.
Alex Tsakiris: [01:00:31] Here’s another statement from one of the characters in He Will Live Up in the Sky regarding the UFO phenomenon and it is, “The UFO had nothing to do with science or technology and everything to do with the occult.”
Now they’re kind of not saying that directly, they’re saying that someone else is saying it. But this is something we have to talk about because I do hear this thread in the interviews and in reading the book, and I’m not totally sure where you’re going with this, Chris? Are you a UFO, ET, kind of not totally onboard guy?
Chris Knowles: [01:01:14] Well, one of the things that I think I’ve been clear about is, I don’t know, I’m basically agnostic. During the writing of this book, actually, the five-year process of writing this book, my wife and I had had an extended citing of a chevron UFO, basically over our neighborhood for at least 20 minutes. We’d taken pictures of it with our camera phones and stuff. The pictures aren’t great but you can see the shape of this thing, you can see that it’s a chevron. You’ve seen the design before in other settings where it’s a chevron shape with these big illuminated domes on the other side.
So I had seen this thing when I had been taking my dog out. Let me tell you exactly when I saw this thing. I had just watched this movie called Curse of the Man Who Sees UFOs on Netflix and it’s about this guy, this experimental musician, I think he lives down Modesto and that kind of area. And he has photographed and filmed thousands of UFOs.
So I had just watched this movie and I was just thinking about, what is it about that area that would inspire these… Is there some sort of military base, what would be some sort of special earth energies that these things would be drawn to? I couldn’t really tell.
But I go outside and my dog is doing her business and I look up in the sky and there’s this thing that looks like a plane coming out of the clouds and then tops in mid-air, and I’m like, planes don’t stop in mid-air generally. And then I got a good look at the thing and I realized that it was a chevron UFO. And like I said, my wife had taken some pictures of it and so on.
But I’ll be frank with you, I didn’t know what it was. I’m about an hour by air from a major Air Force base, McGuire Air Force base, so it could have been some sort of experimental aircraft.
Alex Tsakiris: [01:03:16] How would they have gotten it? If you talk to all of the leading UFO researcher, you’ve talked to Richard Dolan like I have, and Grant Cameron that I have, the best most reliable information we have suggests that this story we’ve been hearing for so many years, that we have all this reverse engineered alien tech is real, and that our science and our technology, a lot of it has connections to that. And then, you know, you referenced Diana Walsh Pasulka in the blog, I don’t know if you ever read the book, but I had her on the show. She tells an account in her book, American Cosmic, about being invited out to the desert of Nevada, finding space junk, alien space junk with the Tyler Durden kind of character, who stays at the Four Seasons Hotel and flies private jets because he takes the stuff and reverse engineers it into biotechnology that we don’t have. And independently we might not buy that story, but it’s just confirmed over and over again.
So I don’t know why there’s the pullback and the hesitancy about the science and technology of ET, it just seems to be patently obvious to me.
Chris Knowles: [01:04:34] Well, again, I’ve read Richard Dolan’s work, Grant Cameron, all of these books. I read all of the books, people like Stan Friedman who are clearly proponents of the ET and the tech idea. And that character that you allude to, that makes that statement I basically someone who is an occultist, so he would have that kind of bias, I think.
Alex Tsakiris: [01:05:03] Which character?
Chris Knowles: [01:05:05] The character who made that statement that you quoted is somebody who…
Alex Tsakiris: [01:05:09] Right, from the book, from He Will Live Up in the Sky. But the whole book revolves around kind of abduction, fakery.
The one stretch for me in the book was that this woman got rich from writing a book on abduction faker. I don’t see anyone getting rich on that, but anyways, that’s one of the themes of that.
Chris Knowles: [01:05:30] Well, it was back in the 80s. There were a lot of bestsellers, Intruders, Communion, back in the 80s. You remember those days? You’re old like me.
Alex Tsakiris: [01:05:41] Yeah, but Communion. I don’t know, do you think that’s fake?
Chris Knowles: [01:05:46] I’m don’t know. Again, I’m agnostic about it. But what I wanted to do is present a number of different points of view, present a number of different angles, viewpoints. I mean, how do we perceive this phenomenon? There are characters within the book who accept the whole ET and reverse engineering idea at face value.
Another one of the things that had really inspired this book is that my wife and my daughter and I were driving up to New Hampshire, and this is one of the reasons why I set the book in New Hampshire, is that we had seen a plane taking off from Manchester Airport and then shortly after there were these two giant orange orbs that were kind of like bird-dogging it. I almost thought they were trying to make this thing crash. And we were close enough and this thing was maybe a few hundred feet up in the air and we were close enough to get a good look at all this going on, the plane and these orbs and I was like, obviously those orbs are under intelligent control, those things are not just plasma balls, earth lights or something, they’re clearly operating under some kind of intelligent control. And certainly, I can’t imagine for the life of me that those things are metal machines, they were translucent, they were auto illuminous, they looked a little fickly I guess I would say.
And that experience that my wife and I had gotten, that I had kind of written into the book of seeing the UFO from our porch. I was looking at that object and I was like, “Okay, there it is. How is that thing in the air, it doesn’t look in any way aerodynamic for me. If those things are lamps, if those thing of some kind of an electrical lamp, they would be so heavy that the thing would fall right out of the sky. So I have no idea what I’m looking at.” And the thing was bright, it was really bright and we got a good long look at it. This wasn’t some sort of fleeting thing that just swept through the corner of our vision, we were watching this thing. I was sitting there texting with Gordon going, “Okay, now it’s doing this, now it’s doing this.” I mean, it went on for quite some time and I just looked at the thing and I go, “How is that thing aerodynamic?” I just could not for the life of me…
Any kind of propulsion system that we know about, there’s just no way that that thing is flying under some sort of combustion engine. Maybe it’s some sort of plasma technology, who knows. Maybe those lights are actually the propulsion, whether those lights are not just lights, those are the engines of the craft. But I couldn’t see how anybody could fit in the craft. I don’t know it was really… I’ve got to tell you, having that long a look at that strange an object was extraordinarily unsettling for me, it really was.
Alex Tsakiris: [01:08:31] Well, the book is really great. You need to check it out. I enjoyed it and I don’t read fiction.
Chris Knowles: [01:08:39] Faction.
Alex Tsakiris: [01:08:39 Faction. Love it.
Chris Knowles: [01:08:40] Yeah, nonfiction fiction.
Alex Tsakiris: [01:08:41] He Will Live Up in the Sky, and of course he is still totally owning it, rocking it, whatever you want, I don’t know what my kids say, I’ll have to ask them what they say. But The Secret Sun blog spot is a great place to go.
Chris, in the little bit of time we have left, tell folks what’s new and coming up for you in the near future.
Chris Knowles: [01:09:04] Well, I am working on a sequel to the book, and I have a title now, which was a huge stumbling block for me. I couldn’t really figure out a good title for it. And, I’m the kind of writer where I need a title, you know? It always sort of starts with a title and that drives the rest of the feeling of the book.
But I do have a book in the making and actually, And actually, I’ll just confess right now that this book was going to be a much larger book and it was going to start in the 70s, take place in the 90s and then shift to the present day. And then I just realized, that was biting off way more than I could chew, and I think it would exhaust the patience. I don’t think people would accept a 1000-page novel as your first novel. So I had to trim it down. So a lot of the sequel has already been written and I’m really excited about it.
And I’ve been doing a lot of blogging and I actually have a number of nonfiction works that have been on the back burner for a number of years that I really want to get out there, and maybe do some presentations on. So I do have a lot of irons in the fire. It’s just my life has been very challenging the past few years, and it’s been very difficult to get things completed. But now that I’ve sort of broken that impasse, I think that I’m ready to get a lot more material out there, which I’m very excited about, and people have been asking about for a number of years.
Alex Tsakiris: [01:10:32] Well, we’re super excited to hear that, Chris, and it’s always great to connect with you and your work is so fantastically influential to so many people, so thanks for joining me and take care.
Chris Knowles: [01:10:44] It’s a great pleasure. Thank you so much Alex. Thank you to you and thank you to your audience as well.
Alex Tsakiris: [01:10:51] Great man. You take care.
Chris Knowles: [01:10:53] I’ve been spending a lot of time outside exploring nature. I’ve been spending a lot of time with my dog outside. She’s sort of like an antenna. She picks up all the [unclear 01:11:03]. And I’ve gotten a lot of things out of my head that I think we’re clouding my judgment and clouding my thinking. And that’s one of the reasons why I’m just telling people, stay away from…
I mean, I’m going even so far to tell people to stay away from tarot and astrology. And not from some sort of bible bashing viewpoint but just like, if you think these things have power, if you’re not willing to devote your life to them, don’t play around with them.
Alex Tsakiris: [01:11:39] Why would you devote your life to them? Why do you think that’s the answer? To add more of that shit?
Chris Knowles: [01:11:47] I think it just boils down to narcissism and ego, you know? “I deserve more. I deserve more than I’m getting.”
Alex Tsakiris: [01:11:56] When you get to the higher purpose and fully ascending, all that other stuff just looks silly, I think, you know, the demon. Why? What are you doing?
Chris Knowles: [01:12:05] I’ve never really understood the appeal of that stuff my entire life. I spent a lot of time by the ocean as a kid. So my whole thinking was very much inspired by that. Like the ocean is a power that you cannot control and it’s just absolutely insane to think that you can. So what you need to do is kind of act in concert with it, but always acknowledge that it holds all of the card, you know what I’m saying? And the ocean has always been kind of my metaphor for everything really, everything in the spiritual world that we deal with. You’re dealing with powers that are much greater than yourself and it’s really delusional to think that you have anything to bargain for, unless, you know, these sickos who start getting into human sacrifice and so on. Unless you’re sacrificing yourself it’s not really a sacrifice, right? Because sacrifice means giving up something that belongs to you, it doesn’t mean going out and kidnapping some poor Guatemalan kid off the street and cutting them up on some spirit cooking altar right?
Alex Tsakiris: [01:13:11] You have nothing to bargain with, except for yourself. Ooh, that’s interesting. Okay buddy.
Chris Knowles: [01:13:16] You have my permission, you know, anything that you can use, well, please do.
Alex Tsakiris: [01:13:22] Okay. Take care, my friend, bye.
Chris Knowles: [01:13:24] Thank you very much.
Thanks again to Chris Knowles for joining me today on Skeptiko. The one question I’d tee up from this interview has to do with good people who do evil things. How are we to understand our super patriot elites who are for our good and for the good of the country, doing such evil things? Love to hear your thoughts on that. I have many, so I’d love to get in a good dialogue with you about that one. Come join me at the Skeptiko Forum, that’s, as I always tell people, I try and stay up to date on other comments that people make, but that’s where I always go. So if you do want to talk to me about any of this stuff, chat with me. The Skeptiko Forum is the place to do it. You can find it from the website, Skeptiko. You can also find all of the previous shows that you can download for free.
I have a number of shows coming up. As I mentioned in this episode, I am working on a book project as well, so I’ve got that and I’ve got a couple of other projects I’m working on. Stay with me for all of that.
Until next time, take care and bye for now.
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