skeptiko--2020-11-11--Steven Snider (Reculse) Has Redefined the Parapolitical Middle |471|

Steven Snider ’ s ( Reculse ) deep dive into the parapolitical takes aim at Epstein Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:00:09 ] That ’ s a clip from .
I don ’ t know , wait a minute .
Does it even matter ?
I mean , I think that ’ s the Sum of All Fears , but does it even matter .
It ’ s just some other phony baloney orchestrated , intelligence community propaganda PSYOP , major motion , picture bullshit .
And I guess if you ’ re uncomfortable with the idea that you ’ re @ @ @ @ @ @ @ para-political PSYOP machine that we can ’ t even begin to wrap our head around , then , you might have a hard time with today ’ s interview with Recluse .
Here ’ s a clip .
Recluse : [ 00:00:55 ] I want people to understand the techniques , especially in terms of psychological operations that are being used .
I mean , not just so you can recognize them , but so you can learn how to use them yourself , because I mean , effectively , if we are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we aren ’ t simply going to try to sway one of the two dominant positions anymore , Just take humanitarian direction , what they ’ re currently geared towards .
We have to understand their techniques and their methods .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:01:20 ] Welcome to Skeptiko where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers , thinkers and their critics .
I ’ m your host , Alex Tsakiris .
And today we welcome Steven Snyder .
AKA Recluse , to Skeptiko .
Recluse is the author of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the screen .
If you ’ re watching .
A Special Relationship : Trump , Epstein and the secret history of the Anglo American Establishment .
I also wanted to mention another great book that Steven did along with his co-host co-creator of the excellent , The Farm podcast .
And that is a book titled : Strange Tales of the Parapolitical .
Post-war Nazis , mercenaries and other secret history .
You can find that book on Amazon , but the other place and the real place to go to find that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s coming out is the VISUP blog .
That , uh , Recluse does .
And you can go right there to the store and it ’ s better for him .
I mean , he gets a little bit more out of it , which we definitely want when you ’ re doing your own books like that .
So , if you ’ re unfamiliar with his work , uh , Oh , you ’ re in for a real treat .
I mean , Recluse is very much of a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of research backed up with tons of really solid references .
And a lot of if only things were that simple kind of insights , which I love because that ’ s kind of this level three kind of stuff .
It ’ s never simple .
It ’ s never one way .
So it ’ s going to be great fun for me .
I ’ ve been really looking forward to this one .
Recluse man , welcome to Skeptiko .
Thanks so much for joining me .
Recluse : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ thanks for having me on Alex .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:03:22 ] So , you know , what I thought we ’ d do is just , uh , jump in .
Why don ’ t you give folks a quick scan overview of those two books ?
Because what I ’ m really hoping to do is kind of stitch stomachs , stitch some of this stuff together , particularly as it ’ s relating to the craziness that is unfolding on a daily basis .
And I love how you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this Parapolitical perspective , that is a little bit removed from the normal kind of conspiracy theory perspective , but it ’ s absolutely essential to understanding any of this .
So , with that kind of lens , that I ’ ve already applied to the thing , tell us about , uh , the , these two books that people might be interested in .
Recluse : [ 00:04:13 ] Well , the first one is strange .
Tales was kind of an anthology .
It was a collection of essays @ @ @ @ @ @ @ written .
Frank did like the introduction .
And I think the , uh , what was it ?
The RFID chip one .
Uh , and then I did three myself .
One of them was on the famous or infamous one .
So a point of view , Mellon family of Pittsburgh , uh , they ’ ve certainly been involved in a lot of intrigues , a very wealthy man of course Thomas Mellon was the infamous Secretary of The Treasury during the 1920s leading up to the three .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ I just interject ?
I just want to make sure you hit the high levels for , because you know , for folks who are coming at this cold .
Parapolitical is really , really interesting in terms of where you ’ re taking that .
I mean , maybe break it down at that basic of a level of what does Para political mean to you and why would .
Kind of most people that run across with go , Oh , he ’ s just a conspiracy theory .
Conspiracy theory @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Well Yeah , that ’ s actually what we ’ re trying to like get away from essentially .
I mean , Parapolitical was essentially an attempt to do a , more of a scholarly approach to deep politics .
I mean , it would be a field that was , uh , really pioneered , I think , uh , going into the seventies by researchers like Peter Dale Scott ’ s or Alfred McCoy .
And , uh , you know , you can sort of see the lineage going on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ great Jeffery Bale , those types of people , but essentially , I mean , it was where you were actually doing your research .
You know ?
I mean , one of the things that I ’ ve learned doing this about 10 , you know , for 10 years or so now that , I mean , the really .
The Great stories and the really true stories are not the ones that you ’ re going to find necessarily online and YouTube videos or even in books , frankly .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ to be in private papers that are stashed away at all these different universities across the country .
They ’ re going to be in personal interviews with some of these characters , but I mean , that ’ s where you find the stuff that nobody ’ s ever really heard of before .
And that ’ s really .
To me the essence of true research .
I mean , it ’ s not just , you know , looking at some of the time horn throws , conspiracy culture , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ using that as a citation over and over again is doing , legitimate and original research to try to bring new perspectives into a lot of these topics .
And that to me is what differentiates Parapolitics from conspiracy theories .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:06:30 ] You know , I absolutely agree with you , but I ’ d add something else because I think there ’ s so much more to what you ’ re doing here in the , I don ’ t know , maybe so much more as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ but just to me , there ’ s a lens focus kind of shift in that we live .
I think we ’ ve , we ’ ve now adapted to the Parapolitical culture that we live in .
You know , I ’ m older guy than you are .
So I remember back , you know , the JFK assassination we ground on that , you know , all the books and doubts and all that stuff for years and years and years , JFK is Parapolitical .
It always was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ lens .
So I think then we live through that and we got into this conspiracy , you know , famous .
Bush up there , kind of laying out the word , you know , don ’ t believe these conspiracy kinds of things .
And we shifted .
And I think what you ’ re doing is bringing that shift back and saying , you know , really , this is the only way to look at any of this stuff is through this Parapolitical and you ’ re living in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ what I see you saying .
So to me , it ’ s not even so much that we have to .
Uh , throw things away because they ’ re too conspiratorial or they ’ re citing the same references over and over again .
To me , what you ’ re really doing is a lens change and saying , wait , all this stuff that you think is real is really Parapolitical .
It ’ s social engineering , its mind games , it ’ s all this PSYOP kind @ @ @ @ @ @ @ about that lens shift kind of thing ?
Recluse : [ 00:08:12 ] Well , I mean , certainly I think in my case really , that ’ s what I ’ ve been trying to do a lot .
I mean , especially relatively recently and trying to actually look more at , um , conspiracy culture itself , because I mean , it ’ s very much a part of all of this .
I mean , as much as anything .
And I mean , it ’ s really been @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the worldview of civilization as a whole , you know , which we ’ re definitely living in right now very much .
Uh it ’ s you know , it ’ s frankly been terrible consequences in that sense .
And that ’ s one of the reasons why .
I ’ ve been trying to put such an emphasis on that because I want people to understand how all these psychological warfare operations function and how they affect us and how they affect the different narratives that shape our reality , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ] That ’ s a great point .
And with that , maybe I ’ d bring you back to this , this book : The Strange Tales of the Parapolitical , because .
One of the things you do in there .
And it ’ s kind of an interesting contrast to the Epstein book because the new Epstein book , which , you know , we ’ re recording this October 23rd and that is supposed to drop and people can find it on your website .
Like , when in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ?
Recluse : [ 00:09:21 ] Yes , yes .
Hopefully within the next week or two , but we ’ ll definitely should get it out before the election .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:09:27 ] Yeah , that would be , that would be a must .
But the interesting thing I find between these two books is if there are these lingering doubts among people , the advantage of : The Strange Tales of the Parapolitical .
Is that it , isn ’ t rolling out in real time .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ , even though you ’ re going back and tracing the history of it .
Back to the sixties .
And even before that , it ’ s rolling in real time .
I mean , Maxwell ’ s still in prison , you know , but that thing hasn ’ t been resolved , this one , because you look at like , post-war Nazis down in South America and all the shenanigans they played clearly with the CIA .
We have a little bit of a historical distance from it .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ evidence , which is undeniable , I think it ’ s , it ’ s kind of harder for people to reject that the premise of it , that this is what ’ s in play , and this is how you have to look at this stuff compared to , like I say , the new book Epstein , we have lived through it , but I think we ’ re still kind of in shock about .
Recluse : [ 00:10:37 ] Yeah .
Well , that was , you know @ @ @ @ @ @ @ why I did try to , uh , focus essentially so much on that whole period between the 1930s and the 1960s where sort of the Genesis of Epstein ’ s network came from in the first book , because I mean , that is something that we do have a certain advantage of time that ’ s passed .
And there has been a lot of different works now that have been published , especially in regards to Profumo because it ’ s such an enigmatic scandal .
It ’ s really @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , and it ’ s never really been satisfactorily explained , and now we do have those so many different testimonies regarding it .
So you do have a certain advantage in reconstructing events now Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:11:12 ] Tell people the basics on that .
And then I think they ’ ll see the links , but then the links to how it goes all the way forward to what we ’ re living in now .
Recluse : [ 00:11:21 ] Well Profumo was a scandal that broke out @ @ @ @ @ @ @ though , about two years earlier in 61 .
And it basically involved the love triangle , uh , involving a woman named Christine Keeler who was having an affair with , um , John Profumo , who was a member of a Harold Macmillan the prime minister ’ s cabinets .
And , um , Yevgeny Ivanov , who was a Soviet naval attaché ’ there .
And also a GRU agent on the side , which is Russia ’ s still actually their principal , military intelligence division .
And , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
You now essentially had a prominent , British official , who was having an affair with the woman who was also sleeping with a Soviet Spy effectively , but , um , you know , kind of further muddying the waters as Christine was essentially one of the girls for this guy called Stephen Ward .
So called society osteopath , who was well-connected throughout the British establishment .
And a lot of the Americans were over there as well .
And that just goes into an incredible world of these strange @ @ @ @ @ @ @ know , VIP sex rings .
I mean , you see just all these incredible things .
I mean , some of this weird Occult stuff , frankly , uh , I mean the indications that there were minors involved in some of this , but I mean , it just brings up so many different levels and effectively this , you know , it was instrumental in bringing down Harold Macmillan ’ s government .
In 1963 in the UK when the scandal started to break .
And then also I think @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Kennedy assassination over here as well .
And that ’ s also kind of another angle to that .
I mean , Americans who have looked at the Kennedy assassination , haven ’ t really paid as much attention to it as they probably should have .
And that was the role foreign governments in it as well .
Um , certainly I do think you can look at the elements of the UK being involved probably the Israelis as well and so forth .
But I mean , that ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ re getting at with like , uh , you know , the , uh , essay I did in Colonia Dignidad for instance , in Strange Tales .
It ’ s like Colonia Dignidad .
It ’ s just , it ’ s so weird .
It almost doesn ’ t seem like a place like that could even exist in the real world .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:13:19 ] again , we ’ re close back up and talk about that for people who , who .
Or coming at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a great .
Netflix doesn ’ t have a ton of great stuff .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:13:29 ] it still has that great documentary .
Doesn ’ t it or not a documentary .
It ’ s actually a movie called Colonia .
Recluse : [ 00:13:35 ] Yes .
Colonia .
Yes .
As I was actually a pretty good one too recounting of it , but , um , yeah , it was essentially set up around 1959 , 1960 , thereabouts , uh , Colonia Dignidad , um @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Paul Shafer .
Who , uh , had been some member of the Nazi party at some point , uh , he ended up setting up essentially this compound in Chile .
Uh , it was a massive place , I think , around three or 400 acres in its heyday .
Essentially , you had a whole German community that was living there .
They almost had all , immigrated over with Shafer in the early sixties , uh , they had , you know , they were segregated by the sexism @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
They had these confessional periods that were kind of like quiet time with the more of the armament movements .
That type of thing .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:14:22 ] It was a cult , which is like key .
But the , the other thing about it is it kind of provides , again , this lens on what the Nazis were really all about in that we sometimes forget it was about total societal , uh , Control and , and , and engineering , you know , at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ psychological level , probably at , uh , an occult level .
And then certainly in terms of , uh , traumatizing people with sex and violence and everything else , I mean , it had all the , all the buttons , and then , you know , of course the tieback that you do in Parapolitical is we had absolutely we , as in the United States government had absolutely no problem .
Partnering with these people , learning from these people going , Oh , wow , that ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , how can you learn for at your footstep and ?
How can we bring you in to do our projects here or do our projects abroad ?
And that raises all sorts of questions , not just from a Parapolitical standpoint , but also , you know , as we ’ ll get into later from a more deep .
You know , spiritual kind of , what should we be doing ?
That is good .
And what , where should we draw the line between what ’ s good and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , you know , all these points that you ’ re raising and that ’ s why I said this is so deep to get into are all jumping off points for some really , really big questions .
Any thoughts on that linkage ?
Recluse : [ 00:15:57 ] I mean really , you know , getting into this , the whole , uh , the cold war or air .
I mean , really , and this is something again that , I mean , a lot of people don ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ just this fascination with using these different kinds of Colts and cold ideologies to advance us policy objectives , abroad .
And , um , I mean , you know , you would reach into the Nazi regime for those types of things , but I mean , it was much more universal , honestly .
I mean , One of the more notorious ones that we ’ ve looked at on the farm recently was the unification church .
And I mean , you know , again , this is another outfit @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for all .
I mean , when you really study these things , it ’ s just amazing .
I mean , how many of these techniques you see over and over again ?
I mean the 14 hour workdays segregation , sexist professionals , public shaming , and humiliations and whatnot .
Uh , and it ’ s all rolled out , going into the cold war with different groups .
Some of them have been around like more of the armament .
You ’ ve had people like Moonies , you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Scientology .
There ’ s been a lot of rumors about that for years .
I don ’ t know how true it is at this point or not .
But , you know , there are some interesting speculations , but I mean , this really was the kind of thing .
That we embraced ghetto nominally to defeat communism purposes , debatable , but that ’ s what we gave as the reason for it .
And yeah , I mean , it did have a profound effect on our society @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of these just terrible and fringe ideologies .
And a lot of this stuff is corrupted into society in a more broader level at this point .
Um , you know , that was something , uh , you know , with the Moonies I hadn ’ t even really thought of , but I mean , my friend , Keith , the point , I don ’ t know podcast , I mean , everything from like want you know where I want to tie this back because it ties directly back @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , uh , what was the , the title of the conspiracy normal , uh , kind of , uh , Conference that you guys did the virtual conference and you gave a presentation on MK ultra and , uh , cybernetics , which I thought was fantastic .
And again , tied these pieces together in terms of how the mind control agenda that we were keen on doing , just kind of ran wild and it was , that ’ s what I think you ’ re alluding to here .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ unification , church Moonies .
Great .
What are they doing ?
How can we do , how can we profit from what they ’ re learning ?
Oh , it ’ s abusive to people .
It ’ s destroying people ’ s lives .
Ah , don ’ t worry about that .
Maybe we can sprinkle it over here .
Weaponize it over here .
Do a little bit , but I don ’ t want to shift gears too much and bounce all over the place , but maybe @ @ @ @ @ @ @ talked about , quite a bit on this show , how that also .
Has the same pathway into this because that ’ s when I think you were alluding to that right .
In your Recluse : [ 00:18:51 ] program .
Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Yeah .
I mean , the presentation I was doing was called among the cyber men , uh , essentially the secret history of conspirator payments .
But yeah , I mean , a lot of this stuff sort of went back to , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was done in 1942 , I believe , which was sponsored by the Macy foundation , uh , which incidentally also later became a major funding conduit of NK all for later .
You brought together a lot of these prominent scientists , psychologists , this type of thing .
And this is really what produced the whole discipline of cybernetics , which is I essentially argued in the presentation .
The cybernetics is a very esoteric , I mean , almost a cultic ideology .
I feel like it was essentially a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was devised rationalized really a lot of what were effectively are cold doctrines and kind of apply some kind of scientific jargon to it so that you can get .
Funding for this kind of stuff and a level that was really unprecedented in people ’ s history up to that point .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:19:48 ] as you point out , we ’ re close it ’ s , it ’ s not even like a leap there .
I mean , you got .
You got references where they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ doing .
And when we say I ’ ll call it practices , I mean , they were trying to summon entities in order to see if they could affect these different things .
It isn ’ t like obscure .
I mean , it , it is , you know , um , let ’ s nail nail that down for us again , cause I ’ m kind of vague on the details , but I remember I was stunned when with the stuff that you had there .
Recluse : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ lot of , I mean , really a crucial thing , right ?
I think to all this as synchronicity , of course , that was a big concept in union psychology , but I also think cybernetics was the finished , essentially trying to come up with a way of explaining this as well through the different orders of cybernetics and so forth .
But in cybernetics .
Okay .
Essentially all of the universe , different sub six subsections of it are constructed by feedback and these different loops and so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ feedback .
There ’ s negative feedback , negative feedback being system sustaining , positive feedback , being chaotic .
Yes .
Well that ’ s yeah , it Recluse : [ 00:21:00 ] really is very much an explanation of the law of attractions essentially of the secret , any of that kind of stuff .
But yes , every thought every action creates different feedback loops and they all bounce off of one another and so forth .
And that ’ s what creates these systems .
And then of course @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of cybernetics until you get to the mysterious third order of cybernetics .
And this is when you notice the system and the system notices you go to some of the system .
And in theory , and some of these more arcane interpretations of it , this is what would produce a lot of effects of high , strange knows .
This is when you would start having the Poltergeist activities and like UFO ’ s and all that other crazy stuff and mechanical Wells , whatever you want to say .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ when things start getting really weird and , you know , it ’ s my belief that essentially .
Uh , this was really what MPA ultra was devised to explain essentially these different kinds of cybernetic principles , uh , also union psychology and so forth , and how effectively all of these things affect reality itself more or less .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:22:01 ] Um , but just to be clear where I was going and correct me if I ’ m wrong here , but so that ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , that ’ s your , uh , Your orientation , intellectually , academically , what you ’ re saying in your reports to your superiors as you ’ re doing yes .
But then when a guy walks in and says , Hey , I ’ m a chaos magician , I ’ m a wizard .
I ’ m a whatever .
I call myself , um , WIC , uh , whatever .
And I can make that happen .
I can manifest this or that inside of the framework @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , you can see where someone would be able to God , I ’ ve kind of already opened , opened myself up to wanting to look at that .
So let ’ s see if you can play my game .
And if you can , then , you know , I ’ m in , I mean , this is a men who stare at goats kind of thing , you know , where .
Recluse : [ 00:22:57 ] I mean , absolutely .
But I mean , also though @ @ @ @ @ @ @ well , that magic has essentially to a public relations , which was dealt with and what was the bureaus and magic and Renaissance and , um , psychological warfare for that matter too , which is another reason why it would have been so fascinating to people involved with this .
I mean , you know , just look at the roster , Crucian , manifestos .
Okay .
Basically they were alarmed .
You know , I mean , they came out in what , 16 , 10 , 16 , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ talking about this great fraternal brotherhood , the secret society then suddenly you have this whole occult , you I mean , you ’ ve got masons and all these secret orders everywhere .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:23:36 ] And that in essence Recluse : [ 00:23:37 ] is a magical working because you manifested something that did not exist previously .
And you did it through these , you know , these documents , which were basically larks .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:23:46 ] Well , let me go here @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s the Robyn .
And again , I hope anyone can follow this conversation cause they ’ re going to bounce all over the place .
But one of the central questions for me there is , is there this co-creator of our reality thing .
So , you know , you kind of played it really straight there in saying they , it was a larger than they created it by these documents .
I might open it up and say , did they create it by the documents or did @ @ @ @ @ @ @ consciousness of believing it ’ s .
So , and is this kind of a Topo , you know , if you ’ re familiar with the Buddhist button , Buddhist concept of , you know , this thought creation kind of thing , which to me just seems obvious .
We see it over and over again , especially in this extended realm where people are contacting spirit entities and they ’ re manifesting spirit entities that don ’ t even exist .
And yet these spirit Emmy ’ s are coming @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .
You know , we , we did , I did a bunch of interviews on this evil thing and you look at Satan , that is Satan because you look all the way back , you know , and the , the Jews and the oldest writings , they don ’ t have Satan .
And then asked her comes along and , and he , you know , kind of has this good , bad , you know , kind of thing saying it , next thing you know , the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the old Torah , you know , now they ’ re showing up again and now a character , a new character has been written into it , but would anyone at this point , so it ’ s , it ’ s obviously literature to some degree , but would anyone at this point deny that there is some .
Satan something that I , I shouldn ’ t say anyone because a lot of people would deny it , but it also seems definitely a possibility that we have now through @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we ’ ve talked about for the last 2000 years .
And people have put all this energy into and films have been created about and all that stuff .
So are we co-creators of this reality and how do we pull that out of this whole thing ?
Well , Recluse : [ 00:25:51 ] I mean , yeah , that ’ s definitely something you have to consider .
I mean , I don ’ t know that .
Everyone who signed on to this , believe that , but I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ there were some people , very senior levels of the government and the intelligence community that did come to believe very much that we could create our own realities by manifesting these beliefs on a popular enough level in the public at large .
I mean , it is , uh , A fascinating concept , but I mean , you know , too , though , it also begs the question .
Is it just any individual or is it specific individuals as well ?
I mean , I don ’ t @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ ve probably read American cosmos rights .
Um , that ’ s sort of a book where they get into some of these notions about possibly there being genetic , um , You know , some kind of genetic code or something like that , for people who experience high strangers and that type of thing .
I mean , I ’ ll tell you something really weird that sort of relates to this .
Okay .
So I ’ m working on this podcast right now , oil , which has @ @ @ @ @ @ @ show .
That ’ s on Amazon and whatnot , or a normal type thing and whatnot .
So I had a lot of strange meetings with the guys and do those , the penny Royal guys , there were series of synchronicities and whatnot .
But , um , in talking to them , I figured out that , uh , all three of us have been tested as gifted children .
And that ’ s interesting to me because gifted testing essentially looks for students that have unusual higher abilities for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ aren ’ t usually evidence to people in different disciplines and so forth .
So .
You get people like us involved in something like this .
And it does kind of big question .
Well , is this kind of making the whole experience that we ’ re having , looking into these things , even stranger , because we have had a lot of that , you know , different leads and researches .
I mean , I know just talking to the penny Royal guys , they start looking at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ one Colt , possibly being active here .
And then after studying it for almost two years , there ’ s like half a dozen Colts that they found .
Some point we have sort of stepped back and have wondered .
Well , these calls really here before we started looking at it or who knows , you know , but I mean , it is a strange thing .
And I do , you know , I try to sit in the fence as much as this as I possibly can @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the coin , I ’ ve had some strange experiences that I have to wonder on some level , how much belief really does matter if that ’ s the reality that we live in .
And specifically , is it also particular individuals who are manipulated in the beliefs we have require influence this type of thing is artists or any other type of medium .
It is very strange .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:28:16 ] See , that ’ s a super interesting question .
Isn ’ t it ?
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ next level question .
Um , Which is , unless I next level to me , what that means is .
Once you get past the idea that we ’ re co-creators of this reality , right ?
Which you can sit there and rustle someone back and forth .
But screw that , just take that as a given and now start asking the questions that you ’ re asking , which is just an awesome opening question .
Are some people more effective at manifesting ?
A consensus reality that we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Wow .
What an interesting question .
And then you tied it into another question there is that , you know , so you had certain traits when you were born and they called them gifted .
Is there possibly a genetic .
Tie to that correlation , to that .
Um , and do multiple people share that genetic .
Makeup .
If we were able to look at it , which again , to me , you know , we can ’ t avoid the , uh , the ITI UFO @ @ @ @ @ @ @ when that doesn ’ t come into these conversations because it ’ s so front and center , I don ’ t know how we ’ re leaving it out .
So one of the things I pinged you with beforehand , uh , because we ’ re going to talk about this and I don ’ t know where you ’ re at on this .
So I thought it ’ d be interesting , but .
I interviewed UFO research for grant Cameron .
I ’ ve interviewed him several times @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the last time .
So I don ’ t know full Toyota can , but he ’ s done some fantastic work over the years .
One of the things that he did that always stuck with me is he along with the late great , um , Stanton Friedman who recently passed away .
Did a freedom of information act in Canada and it ’ s kind of like , I ’ m sure you ’ ve done a lot of foyer requests .
I have not , but you know , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a little gem that just pops up and these guys got a gym when the Wilbert Smith memo was released and Wilbert Smith was kind of running the strange desk in Canada , if you will , at the time in the fifties .
So this is where all the .
Supposedly just radio waves and stuff were thing , but he was also getting all the UFO reports .
Recluse : [ 00:30:45 ] So the weirdest , I mean , those were the guys specifically tasked to , I think really @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this phenomenon in the first place .
I mean , that in itself is very significant .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:30:54 ] Absolutely .
And , and so I ’ m just going to retell this story for the benefit of the audience .
Even though a lot of people listen to the shelf , heard of 50 times before , but Wilbert Smith is there .
And so he starts collecting all the reports are landing on his desk and eventually he goes to his boss and he goes , We @ @ @ @ @ @ @ something ’ s going on here ?
How about , you know , we go talk to the yanks and see what they know .
And so he goes , yeah , let ’ s do it .
So he starts sharing stuff and that ’ s probably the only reason they let him in the tent down here in the United States is he ’ s shared some shit .
And they were like , Whoa , come on down .
You got some good stuff that we want to .
So @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the right people , band of art .
Bush .
And , you know , he names names in this secret memo that is later released .
But the other thing he releases in this memo , which ties back to , I guess , the cybernetics MK ultra , you know what these guys were really up to thing he said to not bury the lead .
His memo is that UFO thing is real .
T is real .
It is the highest , most important , most secret secret .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ the hydrogen bomb .
So imagine the fifties , this is like , say higher than a hydrogen bomb .
You ’ re up there .
But then in the last sentence with these guys picked up on , is that that has something to do with a mental phenomenon .
Now that catapults us into a different .
Kind of space .
What it says is that they had made contact with ITI and made contact at this telepathic level .
Although we ’ re not even sure that that ’ s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in this extended realm , they had connected with ITI .
And that they believe that it was necessary to better understand that extended realm , because this was both a threat and an opportunity like these guys always look at everything .
And , uh , so Grant ’ s view is , and , and really my I ’ ve kind of pushed .
This is that that has to be .
Factored into the equation with MK ultra , that that had to be maybe one of the agendas in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this out because we ’ re already talking to ITI and we ain ’ t talking through him through no radio .
Recluse : [ 00:33:23 ] Oh , yeah , absolutely .
Well , I mean , again , you know , my kind of working theory on the , the obsession with the UFO phenomenon sort of ties into what we ’ ve been discussing about , um , belief potentially manifesting reality .
So there were two really excellent books that were written by , um , Things carry on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is the Rose set of deception and the other one is the Roswell deception .
And he does a really great job of laying out how some of these early UFO encounters work effectively to suction operations that the U S and the UK were running .
And specifically with the ghost rocket .
The flap that you had in the Scandinavian countries , in the immediate aftermath of the second war , or basically to convince the Soviets that there were these super weapons in the section for us to go race @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they would invest tons of money looking into this .
And I know that sounds outlandish , but this is the type of thing that we really did throughout the cold war .
I mean the strategic defense initiative , for instance , we never really thought .
Work .
It was just a way to get the Soviets to waste Monday .
Okay .
So we ’ re doing all of these deception operations and at the highest levels of government , you know , we know these things aren ’ t @ @ @ @ @ @ @ think something happened that really shook everybody .
They actually started to appear nobody had any idea why they were showing up .
Because they weren ’ t supposed to exist .
We knew that they weren ’ t supposed to exist .
And this was roughly right around the time when you start seeing all these projects , initiating shatter blooper of the early ones initially with the Navy and then going into the , for stuff and so forth .
And that ’ s also when a lot of these weird @ @ @ @ @ @ @ which were never designed to just look at all kinds of unusual and unexplainable essentially kind of X-Files divisions for each , you know , major branch us intelligence services .
So .
You realize essentially that something exists now , that ’ s not supposed to exist .
And probably one of the most logical explanations would have been this , that belief that factored into it .
I mean , this was already something that you were starting to see currents prop up in psychology and so forth .
So , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ probably would have been logically do .
So if you could actually contact .
I mean , why not ?
Right .
And if you ’ re already doing it through all these kinds of cookie beans , you know , going into stuff about belief , manifesting things , well , it would be the people who would best understand how to rationalize this and context , something like that .
You know , they had already been talking a lot about how belief could be used to manifest reality for a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s when I think you start seeing all these weird characters get brought in , and I mean , you have guys like Katrina Arik , um , the guy who had channeled the nine , the so-called seance , the change the world was pulled on to that half by cybernetic .
So I think that ’ s sort of where we got into some of this stuff .
Could we also contact the so-called non-human intelligence or what have you .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:36:09 ] See , the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ think that the evidence for the ancient alien theory , for lack of a better term , and a lot of people hate that .
Cause they hate the show .
I don ’ t hate on the show .
I think the show really kind of did a lot of good , but , and does a lot of good .
But I think the evidence for that really stacks up to the point of being overwhelming , particularly when you go to , um , Cross culture cross time , you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ look at these tribes in Africa that have no contact with the outside world and don ’ t ever written language and say , yeah , you know , and they ’ re wearing the headgear in the space suits .
Pointing to the play at ease and sad .
Recluse : [ 00:36:54 ] I don ’ t necessarily think that it does discount prior contact with the same entity either before , you know , the cold war era , but see something else .
I ’ ll point out with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ into these early deception operations , they grew out of , um , a lot of the British efforts organized around the political warfare executive and so forth .
And , you know , a lot of guys involved in that where people like , uh , what was his name ?
Ronald Dall , Ian Fleming , um , people that were in contact with a lot of Prolia sites or people that knew a lot of problems with the Colts who were initially tasked with doing these deception operations , it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they always magical workings in the first place ?
And their superiors had no idea that they were .
I mean , certainly this is also concurrent around the same time that Jack Parsons is out there going to Babylon working and so forth .
So , I mean , I don ’ t , I personally don ’ t think that belief alone is what manifested the things .
I think that they definitely have existed prior to that .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:37:49 ] because it ’ s like , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have you read , uh , Diana Walsh ?
book American cosmic .
So it , did you do a show ?
Have you ever talked to her ?
No , Recluse : [ 00:38:01 ] no .
I would like to , at some point , I ’ ve been telling your agent about that for a little bit .
Now , Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:38:05 ] you know , she was doing , she did an interview with me back when she was doing more interviews .
And then I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ kind of interview weary a little bit , which we understand and , you know , maybe she ’ ll come back around and , and that kind of stuff , but that books may is .
Phenomenal in so many ways .
And you know , one of the things that this is like a total side to me , but it ’ s like so critical .
She ’ s Catholic , you know , she ’ s still Catholic , not a strict Catholic and kind of very open-minded and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ studies .
So she ’ s not like , you know , strictly religious person , but the fact that she ’ s out in the desert , Finding crashed alien space junk that is being reverse engineered directly into multimillion dollar patents that her Gucci wearing buddy is flying around on private jets .
Kind of drives a stake in the ground in terms of the reality of this stuff .
Uh , because money does that , you know , when someone ’ s cashing in that much , just from @ @ @ @ @ @ @ stake in the ground in terms of .
Hannah know , something akin to a breakaway civilization , at least a breakaway academia , where there are some people that are in the know on this .
And then there ’ s just a bunch of other people who are just completely .
Ignorant of it .
And most importantly , those are the people that we ’ d normally would go to to say , Hey , is this stuff real ?
And you know , it in a way ties back @ @ @ @ @ @ @ guess I was driving at with you were close .
Is that to me , the kind of researcher doing .
The pair political research is the new standard for how to know , because if you do have this breakaway academia , You ’ re never going there .
That ’ s a fight club kind of situation , right ?
The first rule of fight clubs .
Don ’ t so the first rule of breakaway academia is don ’ t tell anyone .
And then , so the rest of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of bill , where they don ’ t know anything .
So where do we turn ?
We , it all comes to you , buddy .
I mean , we all come back to you and say , okay , so tell us what ’ s really going on the best you can .
Yeah .
Well , Recluse : [ 00:40:34 ] I mean , I think that ’ s , you know , in essence what I ’ ve been trying to do , and especially looking into a lot @ @ @ @ @ @ @ strange current so to speak , um , because I mean , it really is crucial .
I mean , this is where the real cutting edge science is happening .
And again , I always want to emphasize , you know , um , I ’ m not saying that I necessarily believe that a lot of this stuff is possible , but there are certainly some very powerful and very well connected individuals .
We do think that it ’ s possible .
And if you invested a lot of time @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s just instrumental to try to reconstruct this as much as we possibly can to try to understand the true history of what ’ s really been happening , especially for the last 50 or 60 years , because it ’ s so instrumental to what is now unfolding .
For us right now in our modern society .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:41:18 ] So let ’ s talk , let ’ s talk a little bit about right now , modern society , as it relates to your new book @ @ @ @ @ @ @ me to put it up there on the screen , a special relationship , Trump Epstein and the secret history of the Anglo-American establishment .
Go over one more time .
As I show kind of the table of contents here , where you ’ re trying to take us .
With this book .
And then , and I know you ’ re big on tracing the history , but come up , bring us up to speed on right now .
How you think this plays out with what we ’ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Bates last night , you know , the third debate .
I mean , this stuff is right .
We ’ re right in the middle Recluse : [ 00:42:03 ] of it .
Yeah , absolutely .
I mean , really , I think that the network I ’ m chronicling here was at the heart of , um , you know , uh , Brexit in the UK and the rise of Trump Recluse : [ 00:42:14 ] okay .
Well , I mean , essentially , okay .
The @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you end up with a lot of these spooks who were temporarily unemployed , and this sort of created this vast network of private intelligence networks among the U S and the UK that have really subsisted , uh , to this very day .
Now , of course , UK was always a lot more reliant on this network .
They weren ’ t great power , essentially in the cold war era , they had to do things with much more plausible deniability than we did in here .
But that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ’ s overall power starts to decline .
But I mean , this is where like the private military sector comes from , especially , which is one of the things that chronic one of the first book , the rise of the modern day PMC .
And this is the sort of legacy that if you fast forward to 2020 , where what I kind of think of as the Cambridge analytic and network comes from .
You know what I ’ m saying ?
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:43:05 ] you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ generation warfare , and that ’ s what I think you ’ re alluding to here .
And it ’ s such a great point , but a lot of people probably aren ’ t .
Tuned into it , until that you tell him , you know , but you just kind of think it through , you know , you ’ re out there battling with sticks and swords and it ’ s like , whoever has the most sticks and the best swords wins , and then you get guns @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , whoever has the best guns and Plains wins .
And then you get nuclear bombs and you ’ re like , Oh shit , we can ’ t really do that anymore .
Now all along , you were doing the .
Information game the information war at every stage , you were doing that , but now it kind of shifts .
Right ?
And now that becomes well .
Really the , the , the tool that is gaining more power is the information aspect .
And it also becomes @ @ @ @ @ @ @ bring to the , so the battlefield .
So that shift that you ’ re talking about is so fricking central to all this .
And I just want to make sure that it ’ s your point .
I just want to make sure that we .
Recluse : [ 00:44:10 ] Well , I mean , it ’ s the shift with that , but I mean , it ’ s also , I think that shift of a lot of this stuff , going from the public to the private @ @ @ @ @ @ @ also instrumental in how things are currently playing out right now .
I mean , it was kind of like the same thing with the outsourcing of the private military industry as well , because I mean , it was so essential to around special operations forces .
So now it ’ s a situation where , you know , you only need a handful of soldiers to do what you used to need .
You know , a couple of plugins to do , uh , you know , a couple of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ mean , going into the 21st century , it ’ s the same thing with psychological work , their operations .
I mean , you need a couple of guys .
Keyboards effectively .
So now , I mean , a relatively small network of private actors can effectively do tremendous damage to sovereign States .
I mean , we ’ re seeing it right here in the United States .
They ’ re seeing in UK with Brexit .
And I think if you really pull back the curtain , there probably @ @ @ @ @ @ @ who were , you know , uh , Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:45:10 ] independent to whether or not it reflects the quote unquote will of the people totally for private agendas , essentially .
But sometimes .
Sometimes it reflects the will of the people .
So it ’ s still being engineered .
It ’ s still being gamed , but it ’ s being gamed .
I guess we could argue or have to hash out whether it is a , uh , a virtuous game , because it really @ @ @ @ @ @ @ countering .
A force that was trying to subvert the will of the people .
It ’ s kind of like , I just did the show on the Gloria Steinem thing and how she was a CIA op from the beginning .
And not just , uh , she , she wasn ’ t at all interested in the women ’ s movement , you know , other than she was just a CIA girl that was out doing things at the .
For student protests and stuff like that .
And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And it ’ s like , the problem with that is that we needed that nudge of , you know , it was pretty unfair in terms of how our laws were in our society .
It wasn ’ t coming along in terms of equal rights for women .
So it ’ d be easy to embrace that and say , well , by any means necessary .
But on the other hand , do we really want the CIA behind that running the running that program ?
And I ’ d @ @ @ @ @ @ @ know , so if Brexit really does reflect the will of the people , some people could say , well , then that ’ s a good thing because they were holding us down in terms of controlling all the information .
So that .
That couldn ’ t be expressed , but then you ’ re still in this dilemma because you still in a manipulation situation .
Do you get what I mean , what do you think about all Recluse : [ 00:46:44 ] that ?
Well , maybe because @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s just , we don ’ t really have any legitimate or a grass roots anymore .
I mean , it ’ s all like astroturfing and so forth and that ’ s .
Is really , especially what is so dangerous about something like Cambridge .
I mean , that ’ s really what they do .
I mean , they create ball ’ s movements .
They try to encourage people to not vote .
I mean , just all this other kind of shady stuff that does manipulate the public @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , we ’ re still , I think really unaware of how all of this affects us .
And again , that ’ s why , I mean , you see this small group of private actors who were able to subvert the governments of the most powerful nation on earth , allegedly .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:47:20 ] Yes , exactly .
No , I mean , there ’ s , again , there ’ s just so many things and hopefully we ’ ll have an ongoing discussion about this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ going to come on the farm and I would love for that appearance just to be kind of round two of this , because this is the stuff I really think is just so great .
And so next level , which you ’ re able to do because you have this .
And then database now connected in your head of all these different facts that a lot of people don ’ t have a handle on , but .
I wanted to talk about new world order for a minute .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ you a little bit of a curve ball here , and I kind of wish I would have sent you this in advance .
But I did an interview , I don ’ t know , a couple of years ago with this guy .
And he ’ s a political science professor at Ohio state university .
And really well-respected his name is dr. Alexander Wendt .
You ever heard of him ?
I believe so you , you might ’ ve heard him because you wrote these couple of papers that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the alternative conspiratorial community .
And both of them are super interesting .
And these things just , just about cost him his job and certainly cost them a lot of respectability among his peers .
But , you know , he ’ s a German guy and kind of had this kind of certain thing where he was .
Kind of a tough line .
Like what are you talking about ?
I ’ m just writing another poly side paper .
What are you all worked up about ?
But @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the barrier .
The first paper was well , one world government .
Yeah .
If you really think about it .
Of course .
Yeah .
How can it be ?
Otherwise we ’ re headed towards a one world government look at the long lens of history .
You know , you start with all these little tribes and all these little States , and then they consolidate , you know , as you were kind of saying , is power gets , gets more consolidated than the States get more @ @ @ @ @ @ @ where we ’ re heading .
And is .
Kind of somewhat obvious is that is , it is a bit of a game changer when you really step back and go , Ooh , so what is the game that ’ s really be playing because if this guy can figure it out , then there ’ s a lot of other smart people can figure that out and say , so we ’ re all .
Really heading towards new world order one world , one world kind of thing .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ way it ’ s being pushed by the Orwellian left-wing crowd .
But as you kind of have delved into in the last couple of shows you ’ ve done on the farm is .
There ’ s another force and it ’ s not so clear that in the there end game , isn ’ t no world order one world state either because they see around the curve and they see that that ’ s probably happening .
And let ’ s just throw that out .
Well , I Recluse @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , I mean , everybody sort of knows the sort of globalist internationalist version of a new world order , so to speak , but I mean , you had this sort of counter division , uh , which in the American experience really went back to the administration of William McKinley , which was really instrumental , which is why you had an individual in that administration who went by the name of Theodore Roosevelt , who was effectively America ’ s first neo-con .
Now Roosevelt was of course , a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a big believer of manifest destiny , magical racist , all kinds of wonderful things .
Anyway , he also wanted America to embrace internationalism .
But more than anything , he wanted a great glorious American empire of the predominate world and effectively would model the world after our values .
And that was really always , uh , this sort of dispute between the different elite factions , your sort of conservative internationalist , one hand and your globalists on the other hand .
Basically where we going to try to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ would have at least nonverbally get tempted to be more inclusive .
And in fairness to the old guard , you know , Eastern establishment elites , as bile as they were in many ways .
I mean , I do think that in the immediate aftermath of the second world war , there was something of an effort to try and do something that would be more inclusive to the rest of the peoples of the world .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:51:36 ] I like your qualifications there .
I think @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 00:51:43 ] um , on the other hand , I mean , there was this always a group that always effectively wanted this America first vision .
I mean , later it sort of came to also incorporate the UK in it and essentially this sort of Great Anglo American empire that would dominate the entire world and effectively , I mean , they are both internationalist visions of it , but I mean , I think , uh , the .
More utopian one , quote , unquote , if you will @ @ @ @ @ @ @ what have you was attempting to do so more so in a long time period of war of adoration , you know , kind of wearing everybody down and gradually bringing them into this sector .
Whereas the Roosevelt-ian version was definitely a much more militant on , it was more than willing to try to bring about this great glorious empire by the sword , if that ’ s what it took .
And I think you really see that especially very much in this day and age with , uh , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ rise of the Neo-cons , the American Firsters and the American Right .
And so forth .
And it ’ s really unsettling because I mean , again , you know , going back to the old , you know , kind of Anglo-American Eastern establishment in the US , the Rockefellers and all these people , I mean , they had seen the second world war firsthand .
They knew the kinds of weapons that were being developed and they understood that there were at least certain lines that we should never @ @ @ @ @ @ @ t be a human species left , Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:53:02 ] as you explored on a recent episode on the farm and did so just really in this kind of deep , nuanced way , you get to end of that discussion .
And you ’ re like , well , if I am going to be dragged into the gutter in , in a fight , then I do have to fight .
So it ’ s not like .
And that ’ s the problem with all this stuff @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , you know , into who ’ s ever the nastiest wins out , so it ’ s not like .
One side , if we are engaged in this culture war battle , that is the manifestation of this deeper battle ideological battle of what the new world order is going to look like .
Cause that ’ s what we ’ re saying here I guess , we ’ re saying that there ’ s two visions for the eventuality of that one world state , the inevitability of that one @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Wendt is pointing to , and the one vision is .
What we ’ re seeing manifested by kind of let ’ s call it the Left .
Um , then the counter to that , especially the way they ’ re playing the game is what you ’ re talking about on the Right .
But it really can ’ t be any other way .
It ’ s kind of like the , the Christian thing , which we can .
Maybe get into religion and stuff like that .
And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we ’ re actually being dragged into a false duality with this though .
I mean , I , I mean , essentially I would say we need a third option , you know , cause neither one of these are really very good ones .
I mean , I think that , you know , the globalist one might be somewhat a little better in some levels .
I mean , probably less people would die , but it ’ s not pretty either on a lot of levels either , let @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , I mean , I think that we need , you know , to start , looking at different possibilities because yes , the world is going to become interconnected .
I mean , even more so than it is now .
I mean , that ’ s inevitable with the way technology is going and so forth , but that also gives us the ability to not need , I think as many of these Byzantine .
Uh , structures over as be , they , you know , a kind of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that effectively have the power of multiple , Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:55:16 ] But do you think the center can really hold .
This is the point that you guys raised in your , in this show .
And I forget which episode it was .
Cause you ’ ve had so many fantastic ones that they ’ ve all kind of merged ahead in my merge .
Recluse : [ 00:55:29 ] Were you asking me , do I think society is going to survive essentially ?
Alex Tsakiris : [ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ because I think , and where is the farm here ?
Um , Oh , because I want to show people some of the episodes that you ’ ve had here , I , you know , there , there ’ s always , you know , Oh , will society survive and all the rest of this , it ’ s like , no , what I ’ m saying is kind of a more , this is , again , this is , I think the point that you guys were @ @ @ @ @ @ @ want to say , I don ’ t want to take sides or has to be another way , you know , kind of what ’ s popularized by the alternative , uh , the , alt media that we ’ re a part of .
I just look at that and I just .
We have to kind of laugh a little bit .
It seems so naive a little bit .
I mean , the amount of money and power that these other two forces have is just going to , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ yeah , you know , everyone wants to , everyone wants to pick on Soros and his billions that he ’ s putting into .
That one side of the agenda .
And as you guys , so rightly point out was like , well , there ’ s billions coming in on the other side .
And they ’ re trying to co-op things and manage things on the other side .
But the idea that , and again , I hate to be the Debbie downer here , but the , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to be this organic middle that will kind of rise up .
It ’ s like , no to whatever extent we are successful , it will be in making a small dent in shifting one of those two polarities .
It ’ s not a third leg on the stool .
Just ain ’ t going to happen .
We don ’ t have enough power .
We don ’ t have enough money .
Recluse : [ 00:57:00 ] Well , I mean , yes and no .
I mean , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the change in communications , though , that does offer different possibilities that we really haven ’ t had in human history up to this point in time .
I mean , obviously that can all change if there is an attempt to massively crack down on the internet or something to that effect .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:57:17 ] Crack down ?
Buddy , I mean , this is again , so , so again , I ’ m not , I ’ m not like trying to pick on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ] cause , cause what I ’ m doing .
What I ’ m doing is really pushing back with your own points .
You know , that you ’ ve made because , and if you weren ’ t , uh , uh , exploring both sides of this , then I wouldn ’ t , I wouldn ’ t have the respect that I do for you because you ’ re , uh , we all are flip-flopping on all this stuff .
So , uh , Cambridge Analytica is to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are running this game .
That it is impossible for us to , right .
It took us forever to figure out that that ’ s what was going on .
Well , they ’ ve already moved on to the next level , next level , next level .
So for us to get all excited because we have , uh , have the internet and we can podcast and we talk to each other , Hey , I ’ m not putting that down .
I ’ m still doing it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ t mean that , that you stop doing it , but it does mean that you have to kind of check yourself in terms of how this fits into kind of the big picture .
I mean , I just talked to , you know , the .
Cancel culture .
The people that are just kind of disappeared completely from the conversation .
This is something we never would have , even if you and I were having this conversation five years ago and one of us said that .
The other @ @ @ @ @ @ @ re nuts ” , they never , they could never do that .
They could never completely just across all these platforms that chose this collusion .
This cover-up talk about conspiracy shows it ’ s , compromised conspiratorial collusion that we could never imagine .
We would have never anticipated that they could have done that .
Now we live it .
So again , I just .
I think you ’ re , I think you ’ re equally on board with that at different times as I am , but @ @ @ @ @ @ @ look at the bright side of things .
Recluse : [ 00:59:03 ] Yeah .
Yeah .
Well , I mean , also I always , I hate to tell people to try to support the lesser of two evils in any real faction .
I mean , I don ’ t know .
I feel like that ’ s a lot of what has led us to this sad juncture .
I mean , we ’ ve just .
We ’ ve continuously lowered our standards generation after generation after generation .
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ look at the presidential debate .
We were forced to witness last night .
I mean , that ’ s what it ’ s gotten us now .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 00:59:29 ] Well , I think , well , I don ’ t want to get off on another tangent .
I think politics , when you look at them are really interesting because , and you have a little bit of that lens .
I mean , when you go back to , uh , McKinley or whatever , I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ shit going on in our history that makes modern politics look mild compared to what those guys did and all that .
So it ’ s always been .
Why wouldn ’ t you , you know , if you can , it ’ s a great , it ’ s like the whole , not to Nick , Nick Bostrom , which is a fantastic philosopher from , uh , uh , Oxford and is kind of better known for .
So , you know : “ If they can , they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ quotes I love from him .
And it ’ s like , No matter how horrific you think , you know , whatever it is , whether it ’ s transhumanism or , you know , genetic engineering or , you know , cloning , whatever it technologically , if we can , we will , it ’ s just always been .
And the , and you can ’ t get away from it by being a Luddite and sticking your head in the ground and go , well , you know @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we just got in our house , the new virtual reality thing from Facebook , you know , it ’ s like , as soon as you do that , you ’ re like , well , of course , everyone ’ s going to be doing this .
Everyone ’ s going to be fighting over or deciding how much of their life is virtual versus how much life is non-virtual it ’ s , it ’ s a given .
If you think that isn ’ t going to happen , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the largest percentage of the population .
It ’ s just like , um , you know , the Neuralink stuff and all that .
You know what I mean ?
Of course , I , I have a family member very close to me who has , uh , epilepsy .
They ’ re not going to sign up for the Neuralink , if it stops their seizures ?
Of course they will .
Well , now you ’ re in the game , right ?
Cause I , you know , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Neuralink ?
We can do this and this and this and this .
Do you want to do this ?
Or you want to shut that down ?
You know what I mean ?
It ’ s like ; of course we ’ re heading there .
Recluse : [ 01:01:29 ] Yeah .
I mean , it ’ s definitely , I mean , it ’ s a strange position to be in , certainly .
And I mean , but I mean , that ’ s really essentially a big part @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , because I mean , how they ’ re applied and I mean effectively how they can be used against the different factions as well .
I mean , I think , you know , if you really look at some of these more arcane groups , I mean , what was it ?
The DKMU was Domus Kaotica Marauder underground or some of these other kinds of outfits .
They ’ re already trying to do something like that .
You know ?
I mean , I think that ’ s really @ @ @ @ @ @ @ best bet that we really have .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 01:02:03 ] you know what I think that we really have .
And I always say this and people think I ’ m joking or something is , you know , the , the old Navy commercial , you know , a force for good .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 01:02:18 ] that ’ s , you ’ re so right , buddy .
That ’ s so , right , right , right .
Recluse .
It ’ s like , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ right talk about programming .
But the old one , which is just .
Generic , right .
I mean , whether it ’ s global or whether it ’ s , let ’ s leave that out of the debate , but let ’ s be a force for good let ’ s , uh , you know , tie into the American ideals that were never , our ideals .
We never lived them really , but we at least had those ideals .
That ’ s all I think we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be a force for good in our life .
In our community and the people that we come in contact with .
That ’ s the strong rep. Yep .
And that ’ s the gravitational force .
That ’ s what pulls these two polarized insanities , you know , need to be attracted to us rather than us trying to glom on to them .
What do you think about that as we try and Recluse : [ 01:03:13 ] absolutely .
And I mean , I think specifically you know @ @ @ @ @ @ @ end and so forth , because I mean , to a certain extent , you know , you do need these psychological constructs to formulate a society .
I mean , you need a certain mythos to base a society around .
I mean , they really don ’ t last if they don ’ t have that .
And I mean , I think it ’ s really up to us .
I mean , especially artists , political scholars , that type of thing to create a mythos that is a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ more inclusive , something that ’ s going to be for the betterment of humanity in the long run .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 01:03:43 ] Awesome .
You know what ?
I think that ’ s a good way to kind of round it on home .
What else do we need to share with people in terms of how they need to connect with what you ’ re doing and , and , and keep , keep up to speed on how to make that good stuff happen .
Recluse : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , I just think , you know , you need to step back sometimes .
I mean , even though I am kind of a political junkie , I mean , I usually make a point , you know , at least a couple of hours a day , really to just get outside or something , just get away from all the technology and insanity and just try to focus on what ’ s really important to me in my life .
I mean , that ’ s kind of another thing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to aspire towards goals .
And just to ultimately realize that there is stuff that you can do .
I mean , it just seems like talking to , because I ’ m a cook professionally , like I don ’ t really do anything prestigious or anything I ’ m around normal people pretty regularly .
That just seems like people get so daunted by thinking that I ’ m just a little person .
I can ’ t really do anything constructive with my life , which is nonsense .
You @ @ @ @ @ @ @ believe in yourself .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 01:04:45 ] You know , the other thing that you said there that I think is kind of interesting and people don ’ t talk about a lot and it almost sounds , it can sound a little bit patronizing when you say I ’ m around normal people a lot , but I know exactly what you mean .
And I find that too .
Recluse : [ 01:05:03 ] I mean , people have to also , I think step out of their @ @ @ @ @ @ @ seems like so often people only want to , you know , especially nowadays we only wan na associate with other liberals or we only want to associate with other conservatives or you only want to associate with other beacons or that type of thing .
At least for me , I ’ ve always tried to have friends from very different backgrounds over the course of my life .
And I mean , I think that ’ s very useful , you know , it exposes you to different social structures and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , you know , trying to do positive things in the world is understanding other people ’ s perspectives .
I mean , even if you find them appalling , you really can ’ t help them get beyond their perspectives .
If you don ’ t understand where they ’ re coming from , you know , it just seems like in general , there ’ s a .
Of lack of mutual understanding nowadays in our society and attempt to even try to get where the other person ’ s coming @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with other people to help them .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 01:05:57 ] Awesome .
Well , again , folks , we ’ ve been talking to Steven Schneider , AKA recluse .
Fantastic stuff .
I hope you got a taste of it without getting too overwhelmed .
Check out his podcast .
It ’ s just terrific long form , but deep , deep dives into stuff .
Um : Strange Tales of the Parapolitical , but we ’ re going to want you to go to his website to catch @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ?
The website .
He ’ s got a new book : A Special Relationship , that you can get from the website , as well as his other book on the Parapolitical .
So , it ’ s been absolutely terrific having you on Recluse and , uh , look forward to doing it again .
Alex Tsakiris : [ 01:06:45 ] Boom !
Thanks again to Steven Snider , AKA Recluse for joining me today on Skeptiko .
The one question I guess I tee up from this interview is the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the end of this and that is .
Is there a third option in this globalist global warming ?
Communist one side and crazy right-wing Mooney .
A neo-con or die alternative on the other .
Is there a third way , a middle way .
And how do we find it ?
I guess that ’ s the question I tee up .
Can ’ t get any bigger than that one .
Really ?
So , if you liked this interview , if you enjoyed it , I thought it was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ one coming up with Recluse on his show .
That ’ ll be out pretty soon .
Check that out .
But doing a number of interviews on other shows and I continue to have some pretty good ones coming up on Skeptiko as well .
So stay with me for all of that .
Until next time .
Take care .
And bye for now .

Steven Snider’s (Reculse) deep dive into the parapolitical takes aim at Epstein
photo by: Skeptiko
Alex Tsakiris: [00:00:09] That’s a clip from. I don’t know, wait a minute. Does it even matter? I mean, I think that’s the Sum of All Fears, but does it even matter. It’s just some other phony baloney orchestrated, intelligence community propaganda PSYOP, major motion, picture bullshit. And I guess if you’re uncomfortable with the idea that you’re being constantly played, manipulated by some para-political PSYOP machine that we can’t even begin to wrap our head around, then, you might have a hard time with today’s interview with Recluse. Here’s a clip.
Recluse: [00:00:55] I want people to understand the techniques, especially in terms of psychological operations that are being used.
I mean, not just so you can recognize them, but so you can learn how to use them yourself, because I mean, effectively, if we are going to have a third position or we aren’t simply going to try to sway one of the two dominant positions anymore, Just take humanitarian direction, what they’re currently geared towards.
We have to understand their techniques and their methods.
Click Here for Recluse’s website
Click here for Forum Discussion
Alex Tsakiris: [00:01:20] Welcome to Skeptiko where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers and their critics. I’m your host, Alex Tsakiris. And today we welcome Steven Snyder. AKA Recluse, to Skeptiko. Recluse is the author of a new book I have up on the screen. If you’re watching. A Special Relationship: Trump, Epstein and the secret history of the Anglo American Establishment. I also wanted to mention another great book that Steven did along with his co-host co-creator of the excellent, The Farm podcast. And that is a book titled: Strange Tales of the Parapolitical. Post-war Nazis, mercenaries and other secret history.
You can find that book on Amazon, but the other place and the real place to go to find that, and the new book that’s coming out is the VISUP blog. That, uh, Recluse does. And you can go right there to the store and it’s better for him. I mean, he gets a little bit more out of it, which we definitely want when you’re doing your own books like that.
So, if you’re unfamiliar with his work, uh, Oh, you’re in for a real treat. I mean, Recluse is very much of a deep dive kind of guy, tons of research backed up with tons of really solid references. And a lot of if only things were that simple kind of insights, which I love because that’s kind of this level three kind of stuff.
It’s never simple. It’s never one way. So it’s going to be great fun for me. I’ve been really looking forward to this one. Recluse man, welcome to Skeptiko. Thanks so much for joining me.
Recluse: [00:03:18] Yeah. Well, thanks for having me on Alex.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:03:22] So, you know, what I thought we’d do is just, uh, jump in. Why don’t you give folks a quick scan overview of those two books?
Because what I’m really hoping to do is kind of stitch stomachs, stitch some of this stuff together, particularly as it’s relating to the craziness that is unfolding on a daily basis. And I love how you’re pulling the lens back to this Parapolitical perspective, that is a little bit removed from the normal kind of conspiracy theory perspective, but it’s absolutely essential to understanding any of this.
So, with that kind of lens, that I’ve already applied to the thing, tell us about, uh, the, these two books that people might be interested in.
Recluse: [00:04:13] Well, the first one is strange. Tales was kind of an anthology. It was a collection of essays that I myself and Frank Zero had written. Frank did like the introduction. And I think the, uh, what was it?
The RFID chip one. Uh, and then I did three myself. One of them was on the famous or infamous one. So a point of view, Mellon family of Pittsburgh, uh, they’ve certainly been involved in a lot of intrigues, a very wealthy man of course Thomas Mellon was the infamous Secretary of The Treasury during the 1920s leading up to the three.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:04:44] Can I just interject? I just want to make sure you hit the high levels for, because you know, for folks who are coming at this cold. Parapolitical is really, really interesting in terms of where you’re taking that. I mean, maybe break it down at that basic of a level of what does Para political mean to you and why would. Kind of most people that run across with go, Oh, he’s just a conspiracy theory. Conspiracy theory guy.
Recluse: [00:05:14] Well Yeah, that’s actually what we’re trying to like get away from essentially. I mean, Parapolitical was essentially an attempt to do a, more of a scholarly approach to deep politics. I mean, it would be a field that was, uh, really pioneered, I think, uh, going into the seventies by researchers like Peter Dale Scott’s or Alfred McCoy.
And, uh, you know, you can sort of see the lineage going on with people like Douglas Ballantine with the great Jeffery Bale, those types of people, but essentially, I mean, it was where you were actually doing your research. You know? I mean, one of the things that I’ve learned doing this about 10, you know, for 10 years or so now that, I mean, the really.
The Great stories and the really true stories are not the ones that you’re going to find necessarily online and YouTube videos or even in books, frankly. I mean, they’re going to be in private papers that are stashed away at all these different universities across the country. They’re going to be in personal interviews with some of these characters, but I mean, that’s where you find the stuff that nobody’s ever really heard of before.
And that’s really. To me the essence of true research. I mean, it’s not just, you know, looking at some of the time horn throws, conspiracy culture, like the old pale horse, and using that as a citation over and over again is doing, legitimate and original research to try to bring new perspectives into a lot of these topics.
And that to me is what differentiates Parapolitics from conspiracy theories.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:06:30] You know, I absolutely agree with you, but I’d add something else because I think there’s so much more to what you’re doing here in the, I don’t know, maybe so much more as maybe a little bit too much, but just to me, there’s a lens focus kind of shift in that we live.
I think we’ve, we’ve now adapted to the Parapolitical culture that we live in. You know, I’m older guy than you are. So I remember back, you know, the JFK assassination we ground on that, you know, all the books and doubts and all that stuff for years and years and years, JFK is Parapolitical. It always was Parapolitical, but we never had that lens.
So I think then we live through that and we got into this conspiracy, you know, famous. Bush up there, kind of laying out the word, you know, don’t believe these conspiracy kinds of things. And we shifted. And I think what you’re doing is bringing that shift back and saying, you know, really, this is the only way to look at any of this stuff is through this Parapolitical and you’re living in a Parapolitical world.
That’s what I see you saying. So to me, it’s not even so much that we have to. Uh, throw things away because they’re too conspiratorial or they’re citing the same references over and over again. To me, what you’re really doing is a lens change and saying, wait, all this stuff that you think is real is really Parapolitical.
It’s social engineering, its mind games, it’s all this PSYOP kind of stuff. What do you think about that lens shift kind of thing?
Recluse: [00:08:12] Well, I mean, certainly I think in my case really, that’s what I’ve been trying to do a lot.
I mean, especially relatively recently and trying to actually look more at, um, conspiracy culture itself, because I mean, it’s very much a part of all of this. I mean, as much as anything. And I mean, it’s really been instrumental, I think at fragmenting, the worldview of civilization as a whole, you know, which we’re definitely living in right now very much.
Uh it’s you know, it’s frankly been terrible consequences in that sense. And that’s one of the reasons why. I’ve been trying to put such an emphasis on that because I want people to understand how all these psychological warfare operations function and how they affect us and how they affect the different narratives that shape our reality, essentially.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:08:52] That’s a great point. And with that, maybe I’d bring you back to this, this book: The Strange Tales of the Parapolitical, because. One of the things you do in there. And it’s kind of an interesting contrast to the Epstein book because the new Epstein book, which, you know, we’re recording this October 23rd and that is supposed to drop and people can find it on your website. Like, when in a week or two kind of thing?
Recluse: [00:09:21] Yes, yes. Hopefully within the next week or two, but we’ll definitely should get it out before the election.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:09:27] Yeah, that would be, that would be a must. But the interesting thing I find between these two books is if there are these lingering doubts among people, the advantage of: The Strange Tales of the Parapolitical. Is that it, isn’t rolling out in real time.
Like the Epstein book, you know, even though you’re going back and tracing the history of it. Back to the sixties. And even before that, it’s rolling in real time. I mean, Maxwell’s still in prison, you know, but that thing hasn’t been resolved, this one, because you look at like, post-war Nazis down in South America and all the shenanigans they played clearly with the CIA.
We have a little bit of a historical distance from it. And when you start laying out the evidence, which is undeniable, I think it’s, it’s kind of harder for people to reject that the premise of it, that this is what’s in play, and this is how you have to look at this stuff compared to, like I say, the new book Epstein, we have lived through it, but I think we’re still kind of in shock about.
Recluse: [00:10:37] Yeah. Well, that was, you know, one of the reasons too, why I did try to, uh, focus essentially so much on that whole period between the 1930s and the 1960s where sort of the Genesis of Epstein’s network came from in the first book, because I mean, that is something that we do have a certain advantage of time that’s passed.
And there has been a lot of different works now that have been published, especially in regards to Profumo because it’s such an enigmatic scandal. It’s really very much like the US JFK assassination, and it’s never really been satisfactorily explained, and now we do have those so many different testimonies regarding it.
So you do have a certain advantage in reconstructing events now
Alex Tsakiris: [00:11:12] Tell people the basics on that. And then I think they’ll see the links, but then the links to how it goes all the way forward to what we’re living in now.
Recluse: [00:11:21] Well Profumo was a scandal that broke out in 1963. It had its origins though, about two years earlier in 61.
And it basically involved the love triangle, uh, involving a woman named Christine Keeler who was having an affair with, um, John Profumo, who was a member of a Harold Macmillan the prime minister’s cabinets. And, um, Yevgeny Ivanov, who was a Soviet naval attaché’ there. And also a GRU agent on the side, which is Russia’s still actually their principal, military intelligence division.
And, um, obviously this created some issues. You now essentially had a prominent, British official, who was having an affair with the woman who was also sleeping with a Soviet Spy effectively, but, um, you know, kind of further muddying the waters as Christine was essentially one of the girls for this guy called Stephen Ward.
So called society osteopath, who was well-connected throughout the British establishment. And a lot of the Americans were over there as well. And that just goes into an incredible world of these strange joints with these. Uh, you know, VIP sex rings. I mean, you see just all these incredible things. I mean, some of this weird Occult stuff, frankly, uh, I mean the indications that there were minors involved in some of this, but I mean, it just brings up so many different levels and effectively this, you know, it was instrumental in bringing down Harold Macmillan’s government. In 1963 in the UK when the scandal started to break. And then also I think it played a pretty crucial role in the Kennedy assassination over here as well. And that’s also kind of another angle to that. I mean, Americans who have looked at the Kennedy assassination, haven’t really paid as much attention to it as they probably should have.
And that was the role foreign governments in it as well. Um, certainly I do think you can look at the elements of the UK being involved probably the Israelis as well and so forth. But I mean, that’s kind of like the same thing you’re getting at with like, uh, you know, the, uh, essay I did in Colonia Dignidad for instance, in Strange Tales.
It’s like Colonia Dignidad. It’s just, it’s so weird. It almost doesn’t seem like a place like that could even exist in the real world.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:13:19] again, we’re close back up and talk about that for people who, who. Or coming at it cold. There’s also a great. Netflix doesn’t have a ton of great stuff.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:13:29] it still has that great documentary. Doesn’t it or not a documentary. It’s actually a movie called Colonia.
Recluse: [00:13:35] Yes. Colonia. Yes. As I was actually a pretty good one too recounting of it, but, um, yeah, it was essentially set up around 1959, 1960, thereabouts, uh, Colonia Dignidad, um, by what was his name? Paul Shafer.
Who, uh, had been some member of the Nazi party at some point, uh, he ended up setting up essentially this compound in Chile. Uh, it was a massive place, I think, around three or 400 acres in its heyday. Essentially, you had a whole German community that was living there. They almost had all, immigrated over with Shafer in the early sixties, uh, they had, you know, they were segregated by the sexism compounds.
They worked 14 hour days. They had these confessional periods that were kind of like quiet time with the more of the armament movements. That type of thing.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:14:22] It was a cult, which is like key. But the, the other thing about it is it kind of provides, again, this lens on what the Nazis were really all about in that we sometimes forget it was about total societal, uh, Control and, and, and engineering, you know, at that cult level, at that deep psychological level, probably at, uh, an occult level.
And then certainly in terms of, uh, traumatizing people with sex and violence and everything else, I mean, it had all the, all the buttons, and then, you know, of course the tieback that you do in Parapolitical is we had absolutely we, as in the United States government had absolutely no problem.
Partnering with these people, learning from these people going, Oh, wow, that’s a good one. How can we, how can you learn for at your footstep and? How can we bring you in to do our projects here or do our projects abroad? And that raises all sorts of questions, not just from a Parapolitical standpoint, but also, you know, as we’ll get into later from a more deep.
You know, spiritual kind of, what should we be doing? That is good. And what, where should we draw the line between what’s good and bad and moral. So I think, you know, all these points that you’re raising and that’s why I said this is so deep to get into are all jumping off points for some really, really big questions.
Any thoughts on that linkage?
Recluse: [00:15:57] I mean really, you know, getting into this, the whole, uh, the cold war or air.
I mean, really, and this is something again that, I mean, a lot of people don’t realize, but there really was just this fascination with using these different kinds of Colts and cold ideologies to advance us policy objectives, abroad. And, um, I mean, you know, you would reach into the Nazi regime for those types of things, but I mean, it was much more universal, honestly.
I mean, One of the more notorious ones that we’ve looked at on the farm recently was the unification church. And I mean, you know, again, this is another outfit that had all the hallmarks of coal for all. I mean, when you really study these things, it’s just amazing. I mean, how many of these techniques you see over and over again?
I mean the 14 hour workdays segregation, sexist professionals, public shaming, and humiliations and whatnot. Uh, and it’s all rolled out, going into the cold war with different groups. Some of them have been around like more of the armament. You’ve had people like Moonies, you had places like lonely dignity, possibly Scientology.
There’s been a lot of rumors about that for years. I don’t know how true it is at this point or not. But, you know, there are some interesting speculations, but I mean, this really was the kind of thing. That we embraced ghetto nominally to defeat communism purposes, debatable, but that’s what we gave as the reason for it.
And yeah, I mean, it did have a profound effect on our society because you really were empowering a lot of these just terrible and fringe ideologies. And a lot of this stuff is corrupted into society in a more broader level at this point. Um, you know, that was something, uh, you know, with the Moonies I hadn’t even really thought of, but I mean, my friend, Keith, the point, I don’t know podcast, I mean, everything from like want
Alex Tsakiris: [00:17:37] to sushi.
I mean,
you know where I want to tie this back because it ties directly back to the presentation you recently did on, uh, what was the, the title of the conspiracy normal, uh, kind of, uh, Conference that you guys did the virtual conference and you gave a presentation on MK ultra and, uh, cybernetics, which I thought was fantastic.
And again, tied these pieces together in terms of how the mind control agenda that we were keen on doing, just kind of ran wild and it was, that’s what I think you’re alluding to here. It’s like, Hey, unification, church Moonies. Great. What are they doing? How can we do, how can we profit from what they’re learning?
Oh, it’s abusive to people. It’s destroying people’s lives. Ah, don’t worry about that. Maybe we can sprinkle it over here. Weaponize it over here. Do a little bit, but I don’t want to shift gears too much and bounce all over the place, but maybe tell us, because we’ve talked about, quite a bit on this show, how that also.
Has the same pathway into this because that’s when I think you were alluding to that right. In your
Recluse: [00:18:51] program. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, the presentation I was doing was called among the cyber men, uh, essentially the secret history of conspirator payments. But yeah, I mean, a lot of this stuff sort of went back to, um, the initial basis conference that was done in 1942, I believe, which was sponsored by the Macy foundation, uh, which incidentally also later became a major funding conduit of NK all for later.
You brought together a lot of these prominent scientists, psychologists, this type of thing. And this is really what produced the whole discipline of cybernetics, which is I essentially argued in the presentation. The cybernetics is a very esoteric, I mean, almost a cultic ideology. I feel like it was essentially a way, much like union psychology that was devised rationalized really a lot of what were effectively are cold doctrines and kind of apply some kind of scientific jargon to it so that you can get.
Funding for this kind of stuff and a level that was really unprecedented in people’s history up to that point.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:19:48] as you point out, we’re close it’s, it’s not even like a leap there. I mean, you got. You got references where they were doing a cult practices they were doing.
And when we say I’ll call it practices, I mean, they were trying to summon entities in order to see if they could affect these different things. It isn’t like obscure. I mean, it, it is, you know, um, let’s nail nail that down for us again, cause I’m kind of vague on the details, but I remember I was stunned when with the stuff that you had there.
Well,
Recluse: [00:20:24] I mean really a lot of, I mean, really a crucial thing, right? I think to all this as synchronicity, of course, that was a big concept in union psychology, but I also think cybernetics was the finished, essentially trying to come up with a way of explaining this as well through the different orders of cybernetics and so forth.
But in cybernetics. Okay. Essentially all of the universe, different sub six subsections of it are constructed by feedback and these different loops and so forth. So there’s positive feedback. There’s negative feedback, negative feedback being system sustaining, positive feedback, being chaotic.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:20:57] law of attraction, right?
Yes. Well that’s yeah, it
Recluse: [00:21:00] really is very much an explanation of the law of attractions essentially of the secret, any of that kind of stuff. But yes, every thought every action creates different feedback loops and they all bounce off of one another and so forth. And that’s what creates these systems. And then of course, you go through the different orders of cybernetics until you get to the mysterious third order of cybernetics.
And this is when you notice the system and the system notices you go to some of the system. And in theory, and some of these more arcane interpretations of it, this is what would produce a lot of effects of high, strange knows. This is when you would start having the Poltergeist activities and like UFO’s and all that other crazy stuff and mechanical Wells, whatever you want to say.
But I mean, that’s when things start getting really weird and, you know, it’s my belief that essentially. Uh, this was really what MPA ultra was devised to explain essentially these different kinds of cybernetic principles, uh, also union psychology and so forth, and how effectively all of these things affect reality itself more or less.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:22:01] Um, but just to be clear where I was going and correct me if I’m wrong here, but so that’s your setup. If you will, that’s your, uh, Your orientation, intellectually, academically, what you’re saying in your reports to your superiors as you’re doing yes. But then when a guy walks in and says, Hey, I’m a chaos magician, I’m a wizard.
I’m a whatever. I call myself, um, WIC, uh, whatever. And I can make that happen. I can manifest this or that inside of the framework that you’ve established. Well, you can see where someone would be able to God, I’ve kind of already opened, opened myself up to wanting to look at that. So let’s see if you can play my game.
And if you can, then, you know, I’m in, I mean, this is a men who stare at goats kind of thing, you know, where.
Recluse: [00:22:57] I mean, absolutely. But I mean, also though there is that sort of connection as well, that magic has essentially to a public relations, which was dealt with and what was the bureaus and magic and Renaissance and, um, psychological warfare for that matter too, which is another reason why it would have been so fascinating to people involved with this.
I mean, you know, just look at the roster, Crucian, manifestos. Okay. Basically they were alarmed. You know, I mean, they came out in what, 16, 10, 16, 14, or something like that, talking about this great fraternal brotherhood, the secret society
Alex Tsakiris: [00:23:28] existed,
then suddenly you have this whole occult, you
Recluse: [00:23:32] know, Renaissance now.
I mean, you’ve got masons and all these secret orders everywhere.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:23:36] And that in essence
Recluse: [00:23:37] is a magical working because you manifested something that did not exist previously. And you did it through these, you know, these documents, which were basically larks.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:23:46] Well, let me go here. Here’s the, here’s the Robyn.
And again, I hope anyone can follow this conversation cause they’re going to bounce all over the place. But one of the central questions for me there is, is there this co-creator of our reality thing. So, you know, you kind of played it really straight there in saying they, it was a larger than they created it by these documents.
I might open it up and say, did they create it by the documents or did they create it? By the collective consciousness of believing it’s. So, and is this kind of a Topo, you know, if you’re familiar with the Buddhist button, Buddhist concept of, you know, this thought creation kind of thing, which to me just seems obvious.
We see it over and over again, especially in this extended realm where people are contacting spirit entities and they’re manifesting spirit entities that don’t even exist. And yet these spirit Emmy’s are coming back and. Now they do exist. You know, we, we did, I did a bunch of interviews on this evil thing and you look at Satan, that is Satan because you look all the way back, you know, and the, the Jews and the oldest writings, they don’t have Satan.
And then asked her comes along and, and he, you know, kind of has this good, bad, you know, kind of thing saying it, next thing you know, the same story that we’re in the old Torah, you know, now they’re showing up again and now a character, a new character has been written into it, but would anyone at this point, so it’s, it’s obviously literature to some degree, but would anyone at this point deny that there is some.
Satan something that I, I shouldn’t say anyone because a lot of people would deny it, but it also seems definitely a possibility that we have now through our collective consciousness created. Exactly what we’ve talked about for the last 2000 years. And people have put all this energy into and films have been created about and all that stuff.
So are we co-creators of this reality and how do we pull that out of this whole thing? Well,
Recluse: [00:25:51] I mean, yeah, that’s definitely something you have to consider. I mean, I don’t know that. Everyone who signed on to this, believe that, but I mean, I do certainly think that there were some people, very senior levels of the government and the intelligence community that did come to believe very much that we could create our own realities by manifesting these beliefs on a popular enough level in the public at large.
I mean, it is, uh, A fascinating concept, but I mean, you know, too, though, it also begs the question. Is it just any individual or is it specific individuals as well? I mean, I don’t know. I’m sure you’ve probably read American cosmos rights. Um, that’s sort of a book where they get into some of these notions about possibly there being genetic, um, You know, some kind of genetic code or something like that, for people who experience high strangers and that type of thing.
I mean, I’ll tell you something really weird that sort of relates to this. Okay. So I’m working on this podcast right now, oil, which has been created with the hell hell your show. That’s on Amazon and whatnot, or a normal type thing and whatnot. So I had a lot of strange meetings with the guys and do those, the penny Royal guys, there were series of synchronicities and whatnot.
But, um, in talking to them, I figured out that, uh, all three of us have been tested as gifted children. And that’s interesting to me because gifted testing essentially looks for students that have unusual higher abilities for pattern recognition, seeing different things that aren’t usually evidence to people in different disciplines and so forth.
So. You get people like us involved in something like this. And it does kind of big question. Well, is this kind of making the whole experience that we’re having, looking into these things, even stranger, because we have had a lot of that, you know, different leads and researches. I mean, I know just talking to the penny Royal guys, they start looking at this area.
They pick up on one Colt, possibly being active here. And then after studying it for almost two years, there’s like half a dozen Colts that they found. Some point we have sort of stepped back and have wondered. Well, these calls really here before we started looking at it or who knows, you know, but I mean, it is a strange thing.
And I do, you know, I try to sit in the fence as much as this as I possibly can. But on the flip side of the coin, I’ve had some strange experiences that I have to wonder on some level, how much belief really does matter if that’s the reality that we live in. And specifically, is it also particular individuals who are manipulated in the beliefs we have require influence this type of thing is artists or any other type of medium.
It is very strange.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:28:16] See, that’s a super interesting question. Isn’t it? And that’s kind of a next level question. Um, Which is, unless I next level to me, what that means is. Once you get past the idea that we’re co-creators of this reality, right? Which you can sit there and rustle someone back and forth. But screw that, just take that as a given and now start asking the questions that you’re asking, which is just an awesome opening question.
Are some people more effective at manifesting? A consensus reality that we can all experience than other people. Wow. What an interesting question. And then you tied it into another question there is that, you know, so you had certain traits when you were born and they called them gifted. Is there possibly a genetic.
Tie to that correlation, to that. Um, and do multiple people share that genetic. Makeup. If we were able to look at it, which again, to me, you know, we can’t avoid the, uh, the ITI UFO thing. And it always surprises me when that doesn’t come into these conversations because it’s so front and center, I don’t know how we’re leaving it out.
So one of the things I pinged you with beforehand, uh, because we’re going to talk about this and I don’t know where you’re at on this. So I thought it’d be interesting, but. I interviewed UFO research for grant Cameron. I’ve interviewed him several times. I kind of pissed him off the last time. So I don’t know full Toyota can, but he’s done some fantastic work over the years.
One of the things that he did that always stuck with me is he along with the late great, um, Stanton Friedman who recently passed away. Did a freedom of information act in Canada and it’s kind of like, I’m sure you’ve done a lot of foyer requests. I have not, but you know, every once in a while you get a little gem that just pops up and these guys got a gym when the Wilbert Smith memo was released and Wilbert Smith was kind of running the strange desk in Canada, if you will, at the time in the fifties.
So this is where all the. Supposedly just radio waves and stuff were thing, but he was also getting all the UFO reports.
Recluse: [00:30:45] So the weirdest, I mean, those were the guys specifically tasked to, I think really was trying to understand a lot of this phenomenon in the first place. I mean, that in itself is very significant.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:30:54] Absolutely. And, and so I’m just going to retell this story for the benefit of the audience. Even though a lot of people listen to the shelf, heard of 50 times before, but Wilbert Smith is there. And so he starts collecting all the reports are landing on his desk and eventually he goes to his boss and he goes, We got a fair, you know, something’s going on here?
How about, you know, we go talk to the yanks and see what they know. And so he goes, yeah, let’s do it. So he starts sharing stuff and that’s probably the only reason they let him in the tent down here in the United States is he’s shared some shit. And they were like, Whoa, come on down. You got some good stuff that we want to.
So he goes down and he meets all the right people, band of art. Bush. And, you know, he names names in this secret memo that is later released. But the other thing he releases in this memo, which ties back to, I guess, the cybernetics MK ultra, you know what these guys were really up to thing he said to not bury the lead.
His memo is that UFO thing is real. T is real. It is the highest, most important, most secret secret. That the U S has higher than the hydrogen bomb. So imagine the fifties, this is like, say higher than a hydrogen bomb. You’re up there. But then in the last sentence with these guys picked up on, is that that has something to do with a mental phenomenon.
Now that catapults us into a different. Kind of space. What it says is that they had made contact with ITI and made contact at this telepathic level. Although we’re not even sure that that’s the right word for it, but in this extended realm, they had connected with ITI. And that they believe that it was necessary to better understand that extended realm, because this was both a threat and an opportunity like these guys always look at everything.
And, uh, so Grant’s view is, and, and really my I’ve kind of pushed. This is that that has to be. Factored into the equation with MK ultra, that that had to be maybe one of the agendas in terms of, we got to figure this out because we’re already talking to ITI and we ain’t talking through him through no radio.
Recluse: [00:33:23] Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, again, you know, my kind of working theory on the, the obsession with the UFO phenomenon sort of ties into what we’ve been discussing about, um, belief potentially manifesting reality. So there were two really excellent books that were written by, um, Things carry on. I believe his name is one is the Rose set of deception and the other one is the Roswell deception.
And he does a really great job of laying out how some of these early UFO encounters work effectively to suction operations that the U S and the UK were running. And specifically with the ghost rocket. The flap that you had in the Scandinavian countries, in the immediate aftermath of the second war, or basically to convince the Soviets that there were these super weapons in the section for us to go race and what have you around so that they would invest tons of money looking into this.
And I know that sounds outlandish, but this is the type of thing that we really did throughout the cold war. I mean the strategic defense initiative, for instance, we never really thought. Work. It was just a way to get the Soviets to waste Monday. Okay. So we’re doing all of these deception operations and at the highest levels of government, you know, we know these things aren’t real.
Right. But then I think something happened that really shook everybody. They actually started to appear nobody had any idea why they were showing up. Because they weren’t supposed to exist. We knew that they weren’t supposed to exist. And this was roughly right around the time when you start seeing all these projects, initiating shatter blooper of the early ones initially with the Navy and then going into the, for stuff and so forth.
And that’s also when a lot of these weird desks started to show up too, which were never designed to just look at all kinds of unusual and unexplainable essentially kind of X-Files divisions for each, you know, major branch us intelligence services. So. You realize essentially that something exists now, that’s not supposed to exist.
And probably one of the most logical explanations would have been this, that belief that factored into it. I mean, this was already something that you were starting to see currents prop up in psychology and so forth. So, I mean the next step from there probably would have been logically do. So if you could actually contact.
I mean, why not? Right. And if you’re already doing it through all these kinds of cookie beans, you know, going into stuff about belief, manifesting things, well, it would be the people who would best understand how to rationalize this and context, something like that. You know, they had already been talking a lot about how belief could be used to manifest reality for a long time.
Now. So that’s when I think you start seeing all these weird characters get brought in, and I mean, you have guys like Katrina Arik, um, the guy who had channeled the nine, the so-called seance, the change the world was pulled on to that half by cybernetic. So I think that’s sort of where we got into some of this stuff.
Could we also contact the so-called non-human intelligence or what have you.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:36:09] See, the problem I have with that is I think that the evidence for the ancient alien theory, for lack of a better term, and a lot of people hate that. Cause they hate the show. I don’t hate on the show. I think the show really kind of did a lot of good, but, and does a lot of good.
But I think the evidence for that really stacks up to the point of being overwhelming, particularly when you go to, um, Cross culture cross time, you know, and you go and you look at these tribes in Africa that have no contact with the outside world and don’t ever written language and say, yeah, you know, and they’re wearing the headgear in the space suits.
Pointing to the play at ease and sad.
Recluse: [00:36:54] I don’t necessarily think that it does discount prior contact with the same entity either before, you know, the cold war era, but see something else. I’ll point out with that as well. When you get into these early deception operations, they grew out of, um, a lot of the British efforts organized around the political warfare executive and so forth.
And, you know, a lot of guys involved in that where people like, uh, what was his name? Ronald Dall, Ian Fleming, um, people that were in contact with a lot of Prolia sites or people that knew a lot of problems with the Colts who were initially tasked with doing these deception operations,
it kind of picks the question where were they always magical workings in the first place?
And their superiors had no idea that they were. I mean, certainly this is also concurrent around the same time that Jack Parsons is out there going to Babylon working and so forth. So, I mean, I don’t, I personally don’t think that belief alone is what manifested the things. I think that they definitely have existed prior to that.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:37:49] because it’s like, I fast forward to, um, have you read, uh, Diana Walsh? book American cosmic. So it, did you do a show? Have you ever talked to her? No,
Recluse: [00:38:01] no. I would like to, at some point, I’ve been telling your agent about that for a little bit. Now,
Alex Tsakiris: [00:38:05] you know, she was doing, she did an interview with me back when she was doing more interviews.
And then I think she got, you know, kind of interview weary a little bit, which we understand and, you know, maybe she’ll come back around and, and that kind of stuff, but that books may is. Phenomenal in so many ways. And you know, one of the things that this is like a total side to me, but it’s like so critical.
She’s Catholic, you know, she’s still Catholic, not a strict Catholic and kind of very open-minded and, uh, tenured professor and religious studies. So she’s not like, you know, strictly religious person, but the fact that she’s out in the desert, Finding crashed alien space junk that is being reverse engineered directly into multimillion dollar patents that her Gucci wearing buddy is flying around on private jets.
Kind of drives a stake in the ground in terms of the reality of this stuff. Uh, because money does that, you know, when someone’s cashing in that much, just from the junk and it also drives a stake in the ground in terms of. Hannah know, something akin to a breakaway civilization, at least a breakaway academia, where there are some people that are in the know on this.
And then there’s just a bunch of other people who are just completely. Ignorant of it. And most importantly, those are the people that we’d normally would go to to say, Hey, is this stuff real? And you know, it in a way ties back to the very first question that I guess I was driving at with you were close.
Is that to me, the kind of researcher doing. The pair political research is the new standard for how to know, because if you do have this breakaway academia, You’re never going there. That’s a fight club kind of situation, right? The first rule of fight clubs. Don’t so the first rule of breakaway academia is don’t tell anyone.
And then, so the rest of the academia is completely useful idiot kind of bill, where they don’t know anything. So where do we turn? We, it all comes to you, buddy. I mean, we all come back to you and say, okay, so tell us what’s really going on the best you can. Yeah. Well,
Recluse: [00:40:34] I mean, I think that’s, you know, in essence what I’ve been trying to do, and especially looking into a lot of this, you know, these strange current so to speak, um, because I mean, it really is crucial.
I mean, this is where the real cutting edge science is happening. And again, I always want to emphasize, you know, um, I’m not saying that I necessarily believe that a lot of this stuff is possible, but there are certainly some very powerful and very well connected individuals. We do think that it’s possible.
And if you invested a lot of time and resources into it, and it’s just instrumental to try to reconstruct this as much as we possibly can to try to understand the true history of what’s really been happening, especially for the last 50 or 60 years, because it’s so instrumental to what is now unfolding.
For us right now in our modern society.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:41:18] So let’s talk, let’s talk a little bit about right now, modern society, as it relates to your new book, that’s a cue for me to put it up there on the screen, a special relationship, Trump Epstein and the secret history of the Anglo-American establishment. Go over one more time.
As I show kind of the table of contents here, where you’re trying to take us. With this book. And then, and I know you’re big on tracing the history, but come up, bring us up to speed on right now. How you think this plays out with what we’re experiencing real time. Like just the Bates last night, you know, the third debate.
I mean, this stuff is right. We’re right in the middle
Recluse: [00:42:03] of it. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, really, I think that the network I’m chronicling here was at the heart of, um, you know, uh, Brexit in the UK and the rise of Trump
Alex Tsakiris: [00:42:13] explain that
Recluse: [00:42:14] okay. Well, I mean, essentially, okay. The second world war that ends, and you end up with a lot of these spooks who were temporarily unemployed, and this sort of created this vast network of private intelligence networks among the U S and the UK that have really subsisted, uh, to this very day. Now, of course, UK was always a lot more reliant on this network.
They weren’t great power, essentially in the cold war era, they had to do things with much more plausible deniability than we did in here. But that’s changing as well as America’s overall power starts to decline. But I mean, this is where like the private military sector comes from, especially, which is one of the things that chronic one of the first book, the rise of the modern day PMC.
And this is the sort of legacy that if you fast forward to 2020, where what I kind of think of as the Cambridge analytic and network comes from. You know what I’m saying?
Alex Tsakiris: [00:43:05] you guys did a great show on fourth generation warfare, and that’s what I think you’re alluding to here.
And it’s such a great point, but a lot of people probably aren’t. Tuned into it, until that you tell him, you know, but you just kind of think it through, you know, you’re out there battling with sticks and swords and it’s like, whoever has the most sticks and the best swords wins, and then you get guns and you’re like, well, whoever has the best guns and Plains wins.
And then you get nuclear bombs and you’re like, Oh shit, we can’t really do that anymore. Now all along, you were doing the. Information game the information war at every stage, you were doing that, but now it kind of shifts. Right? And now that becomes well. Really the, the, the tool that is gaining more power is the information aspect.
And it also becomes the most viable one to kind of bring to the, so the battlefield. So that shift that you’re talking about is so fricking central to all this. And I just want to make sure that it’s your point. I just want to make sure that we.
Recluse: [00:44:10] Well, I mean, it’s the shift with that, but I mean, it’s also, I think that shift of a lot of this stuff, going from the public to the private as well, too, which is also instrumental in how things are currently playing out right now.
I mean, it was kind of like the same thing with the outsourcing of the private military industry as well, because I mean, it was so essential to around special operations forces. So now it’s a situation where, you know, you only need a handful of soldiers to do what you used to need. You know, a couple of plugins to do, uh, you know, a couple of decades ago.
And now, I mean, going into the 21st century, it’s the same thing with psychological work, their operations. I mean, you need a couple of guys. Keyboards effectively. So now, I mean, a relatively small network of private actors can effectively do tremendous damage to sovereign States. I mean, we’re seeing it right here in the United States.
They’re seeing in UK with Brexit. And I think if you really pull back the curtain, there probably aren’t a lot of people who were, you know, uh,
Alex Tsakiris: [00:45:10] independent to whether or not it reflects the quote unquote will of the people totally for private agendas, essentially. But sometimes. Sometimes it reflects the will of the people. So it’s still being engineered. It’s still being gamed, but it’s being gamed. I guess we could argue or have to hash out whether it is a, uh, a virtuous game, because it really is the people and it’s countering.
A force that was trying to subvert the will of the people. It’s kind of like, I just did the show on the Gloria Steinem thing and how she was a CIA op from the beginning. And not just, uh, she, she wasn’t at all interested in the women’s movement, you know, other than she was just a CIA girl that was out doing things at the.
For student protests and stuff like that. And they recruited her for this job. And it’s like, the problem with that is that we needed that nudge of, you know, it was pretty unfair in terms of how our laws were in our society. It wasn’t coming along in terms of equal rights for women. So it’d be easy to embrace that and say, well, by any means necessary.
But on the other hand, do we really want the CIA behind that running the running that program? And I’d say the same thing here, you know, so if Brexit really does reflect the will of the people, some people could say, well, then that’s a good thing because they were holding us down in terms of controlling all the information.
So that. That couldn’t be expressed, but then you’re still in this dilemma because you still in a manipulation situation. Do you get what I mean, what do you think about all
Recluse: [00:46:44] that? Well, maybe because again, you know, it’s just, we don’t really have any legitimate or a grass roots anymore. I mean, it’s all like astroturfing and so forth and that’s.
Is really, especially what is so dangerous about something like Cambridge. I mean, that’s really what they do. I mean, they create ball’s movements. They try to encourage people to not vote. I mean, just all this other kind of shady stuff that does manipulate the public wills so much. And you know, we’re still, I think really unaware of how all of this affects us.
And again, that’s why, I mean, you see this small group of private actors who were able to subvert the governments of the most powerful nation on earth, allegedly.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:47:20] Yes, exactly. No, I mean, there’s, again, there’s just so many things and hopefully we’ll have an ongoing discussion about this, and I know I’m going to come on the farm and I would love for that appearance just to be kind of round two of this, because this is the stuff I really think is just so great.
And so next level, which you’re able to do because you have this. And then database now connected in your head of all these different facts that a lot of people don’t have a handle on, but. I wanted to talk about new world order for a minute. And I kind of have to throw you a little bit of a curve ball here, and I kind of wish I would have sent you this in advance.
But I did an interview, I don’t know, a couple of years ago with this guy. And he’s a political science professor at Ohio state university. And really well-respected his name is dr. Alexander Wendt. You ever heard of him? I believe so
you, you might’ve heard him because you wrote these couple of papers that really got a lot of traction inside of the alternative conspiratorial community. And both of them are super interesting. And these things just, just about cost him his job and certainly cost them a lot of respectability among his peers.
But, you know, he’s a German guy and kind of had this kind of certain thing where he was. Kind of a tough line. Like what are you talking about? I’m just writing another poly side paper. What are you all worked up about? But here’s the point? Not the barrier. The first paper was well, one world government.
Yeah. If you really think about it. Of course. Yeah. How can it be? Otherwise we’re headed towards a one world government look at the long lens of history. You know, you start with all these little tribes and all these little States, and then they consolidate, you know, as you were kind of saying, is power gets, gets more consolidated than the States get more consolidated.
Sure. That’s where we’re heading. And is. Kind of somewhat obvious is that is, it is a bit of a game changer when you really step back and go, Ooh, so what is the game that’s really be playing because if this guy can figure it out, then there’s a lot of other smart people can figure that out and say, so we’re all.
Really heading towards new world order one world, one world kind of thing. We really don’t like the way it’s being pushed by the Orwellian left-wing crowd. But as you kind of have delved into in the last couple of shows you’ve done on the farm is. There’s another force and it’s not so clear that in the there end game, isn’t no world order one world state either because they see around the curve and they see that that’s probably happening.
And let’s just throw that out. Well, I
Recluse: [00:50:12] mean, yeah, I mean, everybody sort of knows the sort of globalist internationalist version of a new world order, so to speak, but I mean, you had this sort of counter division, uh, which in the American experience really went back to the administration of William McKinley, which was really instrumental, which is why you had an individual in that administration who went by the name of Theodore Roosevelt, who was effectively America’s first neo-con.
Now Roosevelt was of course, a major internationalist. Um, he was a big believer of manifest destiny, magical racist, all kinds of wonderful things. Anyway, he also wanted America to embrace internationalism. But more than anything, he wanted a great glorious American empire of the predominate world and effectively would model the world after our values.
And that was really always, uh, this sort of dispute between the different elite factions, your sort of conservative internationalist, one hand and your globalists on the other hand. Basically where we going to try to go towards a world of governments that would have at least nonverbally get tempted to be more inclusive.
And in fairness to the old guard, you know, Eastern establishment elites, as bile as they were in many ways. I mean, I do think that in the immediate aftermath of the second world war, there was something of an effort to try and do something that would be more inclusive to the rest of the peoples of the world.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:51:36] I like your qualifications there. I think those qualifications are,
Recluse: [00:51:43] um, on the other hand, I mean, there was this always a group that always effectively wanted this America first vision. I mean, later it sort of came to also incorporate the UK in it and essentially this sort of Great Anglo American empire that would dominate the entire world and effectively, I mean, they are both internationalist visions of it, but I mean, I think, uh, the.
More utopian one, quote, unquote, if you will at least manage through the UN and what have you was attempting to do so more so in a long time period of war of adoration, you know, kind of wearing everybody down and gradually bringing them into this sector. Whereas the Roosevelt-ian version was definitely a much more militant on, it was more than willing to try to bring about this great glorious empire by the sword, if that’s what it took.
And I think you really see that especially very much in this day and age with, uh, you know, a lot of the rise of the Neo-cons, the American Firsters and the American Right. And so forth. And it’s really unsettling because I mean, again, you know, going back to the old, you know, kind of Anglo-American Eastern establishment in the US, the Rockefellers and all these people, I mean, they had seen the second world war firsthand.
They knew the kinds of weapons that were being developed and they understood that there were at least certain lines that we should never cross. Because otherwise there wouldn’t be a human species left,
Alex Tsakiris: [00:53:02] as you explored on a recent episode on the farm and did so just really in this kind of deep, nuanced way, you get to end of that discussion.
And you’re like, well, if I am going to be dragged into the gutter in, in a fight, then I do have to fight. So it’s not like. And that’s the problem with all this stuff? Is it, it just degrades, you know, into who’s ever the nastiest wins out, so it’s not like. One side, if we are engaged in this culture war battle, that is the manifestation of this deeper battle ideological battle of what the new world order is going to look like.
Cause that’s what we’re saying here I guess, we’re saying that there’s two visions for the eventuality of that one world state, the inevitability of that one world state that. My buddy Alexander Wendt is pointing to, and the one vision is. What we’re seeing manifested by kind of let’s call it the Left.
Um, then the counter to that, especially the way they’re playing the game is what you’re talking about on the Right. But it really can’t be any other way. It’s kind of like the, the Christian thing, which we can. Maybe get into religion and stuff like that. And
Recluse: [00:54:27] I think we’re actually being dragged into a false duality with this though.
I mean, I, I mean, essentially I would say we need a third option, you know, cause neither one of these are really very good ones. I mean, I think that, you know, the globalist one might be somewhat a little better in some levels. I mean, probably less people would die, but it’s not pretty either on a lot of levels either, let’s just say that.
So, I mean, I think that we need, you know, to start, looking at different possibilities because yes, the world is going to become interconnected. I mean, even more so than it is now. I mean, that’s inevitable with the way technology is going and so forth, but that also gives us the ability to not need, I think as many of these Byzantine.
Uh, structures over as be, they, you know, a kind of all seeing world government or multinational corporations that effectively have the power of multiple,
Alex Tsakiris: [00:55:16] But do you think the center can really hold. This is the point that you guys raised in your, in this show. And I forget which episode it was. Cause you’ve had so many fantastic ones that they’ve all kind of merged ahead in my merge.
Recluse: [00:55:29] Were you asking me, do I think society is going to survive essentially?
Alex Tsakiris: [00:55:34] Well, but no, because I think, and where is the farm here? Um, Oh, because I want to show people some of the episodes that you’ve had here, I, you know, there, there’s always, you know, Oh, will society survive and all the rest of this, it’s like, no, what I’m saying is kind of a more, this is, again, this is, I think the point that you guys were talking about is like, if you want to say, I don’t want to take sides or has to be another way, you know, kind of what’s popularized by the alternative, uh, the, alt media that we’re a part of.
I just look at that and I just. We have to kind of laugh a little bit. It seems so naive a little bit. I mean, the amount of money and power that these other two forces have is just going to, it makes it look ridiculous. So yeah, you know, everyone wants to, everyone wants to pick on Soros and his billions that he’s putting into.
That one side of the agenda. And as you guys, so rightly point out was like, well, there’s billions coming in on the other side. And they’re trying to co-op things and manage things on the other side. But the idea that, and again, I hate to be the Debbie downer here, but the, the idea that there’s going to be this organic middle that will kind of rise up.
It’s like, no to whatever extent we are successful, it will be in making a small dent in shifting one of those two polarities. It’s not a third leg on the stool. Just ain’t going to happen. We don’t have enough power. We don’t have enough money.
Recluse: [00:57:00] Well, I mean, yes and no. I mean, I do think though with the rise of the change in communications, though, that does offer different possibilities that we really haven’t had in human history up to this point in time.
I mean, obviously that can all change if there is an attempt to massively crack down on the internet or something to that effect.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:57:17] Crack down? Buddy, I mean, this is again, so, so again, I’m not, I’m not like trying to pick on you.
Recluse: [00:57:24] Oh you’re fine.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:57:25] cause, cause what I’m doing. What I’m doing is really pushing back with your own points. You know, that you’ve made because, and if you weren’t, uh, uh, exploring both sides of this, then I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t have the respect that I do for you because you’re, uh, we all are flip-flopping on all this stuff.
So, uh, Cambridge Analytica is to your point is a few guys that are running this game. That it is impossible for us to, right. It took us forever to figure out that that’s what was going on. Well, they’ve already moved on to the next level, next level, next level. So for us to get all excited because we have, uh, have the internet and we can podcast and we talk to each other, Hey, I’m not putting that down.
I’m still doing it. I mean, it doesn’t mean that, that you stop doing it, but it does mean that you have to kind of check yourself in terms of how this fits into kind of the big picture. I mean, I just talked to, you know, the. Cancel culture. The people that are just kind of disappeared completely from the conversation.
This is something we never would have, even if you and I were having this conversation five years ago and one of us said that. The other one would be, “You’re nuts”, they never, they could never do that. They could never completely just across all these platforms that chose this collusion. This cover-up talk about conspiracy shows it’s, compromised conspiratorial collusion that we could never imagine. We would have never anticipated that they could have done that. Now we live it. So again, I just. I think you’re, I think you’re equally on board with that at different times as I am, but then you also want to kind of look at the bright side of things.
Recluse: [00:59:03] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, also I always, I hate to tell people to try to support the lesser of two evils in any real faction. I mean, I don’t know. I feel like that’s a lot of what has led us to this sad juncture. I mean, we’ve just. We’ve continuously lowered our standards generation after generation after generation.
Well, you can see, just look at the presidential debate. We were forced to witness last night. I mean, that’s what it’s gotten us now.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:59:29] Well, I think, well, I don’t want to get off on another tangent. I think politics, when you look at them are really interesting because, and you have a little bit of that lens.
I mean, when you go back to, uh, McKinley or whatever, I mean, there were some really nasty shit going on in our history that makes modern politics look mild compared to what those guys did and all that. So it’s always been. Why wouldn’t you, you know, if you can, it’s a great, it’s like the whole, not to Nick, Nick Bostrom, which is a fantastic philosopher from, uh, uh, Oxford and is kind of better known for.
So, you know: “If they can, they will”, is one of the quotes I love from him. And it’s like, No matter how horrific you think, you know, whatever it is, whether it’s transhumanism or, you know, genetic engineering or, you know, cloning, whatever it technologically, if we can, we will, it’s just always been. And the, and you can’t get away from it by being a Luddite and sticking your head in the ground and go, well, you know, We just got, uh, we just got in our house, the new virtual reality thing from Facebook, you know, it’s like, as soon as you do that, you’re like, well, of course, everyone’s going to be doing this.
Everyone’s going to be fighting over or deciding how much of their life is virtual versus how much life is non-virtual it’s, it’s a given. If you think that isn’t going to happen, it’s going to happen for the largest percentage of the population. It’s just like, um, you know, the Neuralink stuff and all that.
You know what I mean? Of course, I, I have a family member very close to me who has, uh, epilepsy. They’re not going to sign up for the Neuralink, if it stops their seizures? Of course they will. Well, now you’re in the game, right? Cause I, you know, what else would we do with this Neuralink? We can do this and this and this and this.
Do you want to do this? Or you want to shut that down? You know what I mean? It’s like; of course we’re heading there.
Recluse: [01:01:29] Yeah. I mean, it’s definitely, I mean, it’s a strange position to be in, certainly. And I mean, but I mean, that’s really essentially a big part of why I do what I do, because
I mean, how they’re applied and I mean effectively how they can be used against the different factions as well. I mean, I think, you know, if you really look at some of these more arcane groups, I mean, what was it? The DKMU was Domus Kaotica Marauder underground or some of these other kinds of outfits. They’re already trying to do something like that. You know? I mean, I think that’s really at this point in time, the best bet that we really have.
Alex Tsakiris: [01:02:03] you know what I think that we really have. And I always say this and people think I’m joking or something is, you know, the, the old Navy commercial, you know, a force for good.
They showed this big aircraft carrier
Recluse: [01:02:16] No it’s global force for good.
Alex Tsakiris: [01:02:18] that’s, you’re so right, buddy. That’s so, right, right, right. Recluse. It’s like, they’ve changed it now, right talk about programming. But the old one, which is just. Generic, right. I mean, whether it’s global or whether it’s, let’s leave that out of the debate, but let’s be a force for good let’s, uh, you know, tie into the American ideals that were never, our ideals.
We never lived them really, but we at least had those ideals. That’s all I think we have to do is just try and be a force for good in our life. In our community and the people that we come in contact with. That’s the strong rep. Yep. And that’s the gravitational force. That’s what pulls these two polarized insanities, you know, need to be attracted to us rather than us trying to glom on to them.
What do you think about that as we try and
Recluse: [01:03:13] absolutely. And I mean, I think specifically you know to put these techniques to a positive end and so forth, because I mean, to a certain extent, you know, you do need these psychological constructs to formulate a society. I mean, you need a certain mythos to base a society around.
I mean, they really don’t last if they don’t have that. And I mean, I think it’s really up to us. I mean, especially artists, political scholars, that type of thing to create a mythos that is a positive one, something that’s more inclusive, something that’s going to be for the betterment of humanity in the long run.
Alex Tsakiris: [01:03:43] Awesome. You know what? I think that’s a good way to kind of round it on home. What else do we need to share with people in terms of how they need to connect with what you’re doing and, and, and keep, keep up to speed on how to make that good stuff happen.
Recluse: [01:04:02] Well, I mean, I just think, you know, you need to step back sometimes.
I mean, even though I am kind of a political junkie, I mean, I usually make a point, you know, at least a couple of hours a day, really to just get outside or something, just get away from all the technology and insanity and just try to focus on what’s really important to me in my life. I mean, that’s kind of another thing, you know, you need something to aspire towards goals. And just to ultimately realize that there is stuff that you can do. I mean, it just seems like talking to, because I’m a cook professionally, like I don’t really do anything prestigious or anything I’m around normal people pretty regularly. That just seems like people get so daunted by thinking that I’m just a little person.
I can’t really do anything constructive with my life, which is nonsense. You know, you really just have to believe in yourself.
Alex Tsakiris: [01:04:45] You know, the other thing that you said there that I think is kind of interesting and people don’t talk about a lot and it almost sounds, it can sound a little bit patronizing when you say I’m around normal people a lot, but I know exactly what you mean.
And I find that too.
Recluse: [01:05:03] I mean, people have to also, I think step out of their social structures too, because that just seems like so often people only want to, you know, especially nowadays we only wanna associate with other liberals or we only want to associate with other conservatives or you only want to associate with other beacons or that type of thing.
At least for me, I’ve always tried to have friends from very different backgrounds over the course of my life. And I mean, I think that’s very useful, you know, it exposes you to different social structures and a big part. I think of, you know, trying to do positive things in the world is understanding other people’s perspectives.
I mean, even if you find them appalling, you really can’t help them get beyond their perspectives. If you don’t understand where they’re coming from, you know, it just seems like in general, there’s a. Of lack of mutual understanding nowadays in our society and attempt to even try to get where the other person’s coming from.
You need to emphasize ultimately with other people to help them.
Alex Tsakiris: [01:05:57] Awesome. Well, again, folks, we’ve been talking to Steven Schneider, AKA recluse. Fantastic stuff. I hope you got a taste of it without getting too overwhelmed. Check out his podcast. It’s just terrific long form, but deep, deep dives into stuff.
Um: Strange Tales of the Parapolitical, but we’re going to want you to go to his website to catch that. Where did I do it? The website. He’s got a new book: A Special Relationship, that you can get from the website, as well as his other book on the Parapolitical. So, it’s been absolutely terrific having you on Recluse and, uh, look forward to doing it again.
Recluse: [01:06:40] Yep. Thanks a lot, Alex. (————)
Alex Tsakiris: [01:06:45] Boom! Thanks again to Steven Snider, AKA Recluse for joining me today on Skeptiko. The one question I guess I tee up from this interview is the one that we kind of reached at the end of this and that is. Is there a third option in this globalist global warming? Communist one side and crazy right-wing Mooney. A neo-con or die alternative on the other. Is there a third way, a middle way. And how do we find it? I guess that’s the question I tee up. Can’t get any bigger than that one. Really?
So, if you liked this interview, if you enjoyed it, I thought it was a great conversation. I have another one coming up with Recluse on his show. That’ll be out pretty soon. Check that out. But doing a number of interviews on other shows and I continue to have some pretty good ones coming up on Skeptiko as well. So stay with me for all of that.
Until next time. Take care. And bye for now.
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